Class, conspiracy and confinement: an everyday story of a missing child
December 5, 2008 7:58 AM Subscribe
The disappearance of the pretty, middle-class Madeline McCann saw first an outpouring of sympathy verging on national hysteria and then the press wondering if the couple themselves had something to do with her disappearance. When Shannon Matthews, a nine-year-old from Dewsbury went missing months later, the media coverage centred on her mother Karen's private life and her council estate upbringing; the media was accused of classism because Shannon was less pretty and working class. Unlike Madeleine, Shannon was later found after one of the UK's biggest missing persons searches - inside the double bed of her mother's friend, with instructions to keep quiet and traces of temazepam in her hair.
Yesterday Karen Matthews was found guilty of false imprisonment. It isn't clear what will now happen to Shannon.
Yesterday Karen Matthews was found guilty of false imprisonment. It isn't clear what will now happen to Shannon.
Bernard Matthews'-Turkey-Drummer-related-illness
Mum's gone to Iceland.
posted by fire&wings at 8:11 AM on December 5, 2008
Mum's gone to Iceland.
posted by fire&wings at 8:11 AM on December 5, 2008
Let's hope Shannon isn't taken into Haringey's care system, at least.
posted by afx237vi at 8:16 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by afx237vi at 8:16 AM on December 5, 2008
Sigh. Well, I'm glad the little girl is alive. I was confused why the McCann parents weren't charged with child endangerment or something. It seems sort of crazy to leave small children alone, even if they were in a hotel room.
posted by anniecat at 8:16 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by anniecat at 8:16 AM on December 5, 2008
Is it really all about class differences, or maybe about the press not wanting to get burned by another possible false abduction?
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:17 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:17 AM on December 5, 2008
Longbaugh - agreed.
Karren Matthews is sadly not an abberation but infact an indictment of this society. 7 children from 5 partners and the inability to raise any of them. Why does the government propogate this underclass through systematically inept education system and a benefits system that makes dependency a better choice than taking personal responsibility for ones life.
Karen Matthews are her other cohorts should be buried at the bottom of sea.
posted by numberstation at 8:17 AM on December 5, 2008
Karren Matthews is sadly not an abberation but infact an indictment of this society. 7 children from 5 partners and the inability to raise any of them. Why does the government propogate this underclass through systematically inept education system and a benefits system that makes dependency a better choice than taking personal responsibility for ones life.
Karen Matthews are her other cohorts should be buried at the bottom of sea.
posted by numberstation at 8:17 AM on December 5, 2008
Woah woah woah. My sister was (and is) a single parent who lived on a council estate whilst on benefits. The father was absent because of - well, the reasons aren't to be gone into, but he wasn't interested in having contact with his kids. The three boys are all doing well - one works full-time in a warehouse, one is training to be an electrician, and the youngest, still at school, is the academically-minded one of the three. She's also recently returned to work part-time, which I really admire her for after years out of the work-place. So let us not tar all single parents/council-estate dwellers with the same brush.
Just wanted to get that thought out there.
posted by mippy at 8:19 AM on December 5, 2008 [32 favorites]
Just wanted to get that thought out there.
posted by mippy at 8:19 AM on December 5, 2008 [32 favorites]
I'm counting down to the media led frenzy for social workers taking too many children from their hard working, honest parents. It will be a disgrace and something will have to be done.
Also, what mippy said.
posted by vbfg at 8:24 AM on December 5, 2008
Also, what mippy said.
posted by vbfg at 8:24 AM on December 5, 2008
and a benefits system that makes dependency a better choice than taking personal responsibility for ones life.
I know someone on incapacity benefit. She only just has enough to subsist on. When I was on the dole, after covering the shortfall of my housing benefit, I had £30 per week to live on, which had to cover travel to interviews as the dole did not pay for this if it was within London. You must have very little to live on if you think that's an easy life.
That said, it didn't occur to me to kidnap a child.
posted by mippy at 8:27 AM on December 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
I know someone on incapacity benefit. She only just has enough to subsist on. When I was on the dole, after covering the shortfall of my housing benefit, I had £30 per week to live on, which had to cover travel to interviews as the dole did not pay for this if it was within London. You must have very little to live on if you think that's an easy life.
That said, it didn't occur to me to kidnap a child.
posted by mippy at 8:27 AM on December 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
Whenever I see grand, general statements about "them" and how "they" are stupid/poor/lazy/irresponsible I get uncomfortable. Life is messy. You can try to take care of the poor, and some people will take advantage of it, or you can not, and some people will go hungry/homeless. I'd rather err on the side of life, even if I pay more in taxes to support a few freeloaders. Get over yourself. You have a responsibility to your community, not just yourself.
posted by patrick rhett at 8:32 AM on December 5, 2008 [62 favorites]
posted by patrick rhett at 8:32 AM on December 5, 2008 [62 favorites]
longbaugh it would be good if people knew their places eh.
You are born to someone who in the past would be put in a mental institution for having children out of wedlock.
Today however under a labour government , the gap between working class and middle class has widened when we measure academic performance.
So hey lets all have a self satisfied smug dig at someone who must have some sort of pathological problem - who cannot care for her daughter and uses her to try and get money - then the police calls her evil . Nice. Real proud of your humanity there.
posted by dprs75 at 8:32 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
You are born to someone who in the past would be put in a mental institution for having children out of wedlock.
Today however under a labour government , the gap between working class and middle class has widened when we measure academic performance.
So hey lets all have a self satisfied smug dig at someone who must have some sort of pathological problem - who cannot care for her daughter and uses her to try and get money - then the police calls her evil . Nice. Real proud of your humanity there.
posted by dprs75 at 8:32 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
I did not say it is an easier life, what I said was there is a choice and people who grow up with parents who are dependent on the state have a tendancy to continue to live in that manner. I am not tarring single parents or those who live on council estates. My sister in law is a single mother who lives on a council estate but unlike the vast majority of those she lives side by side along, she goes to work.
posted by numberstation at 8:33 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by numberstation at 8:33 AM on December 5, 2008
Ah, sorry, I just get raised hackles at comments like that. I remember arguing with someone at university who didn't believe there was such a thing as child poverty in this country. 'If someone's on the breadline, they're starving!' he said with a smug grin. Yes, lots of children are. 'Then it's parental incompetence.' Seriously, unless you've been to one of these 'sink estates' - and I very much doubt broadsheet journos know what they're like two postcodes away from their homes, never mind in a depressed former mill-town where the only employers are call-centres and the local council - then it's pretty difficult to sneer without sounding an awful lot like one of those twats. You know, people who feel that all teenage girls should be force-fed contraception.
posted by mippy at 8:34 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by mippy at 8:34 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
a benefits system that makes dependency a better choice than taking personal responsibility for ones life.
...even if true, this leads to you kidnapping and abusing your own child how exactly?
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 8:34 AM on December 5, 2008
...even if true, this leads to you kidnapping and abusing your own child how exactly?
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 8:34 AM on December 5, 2008
dprs75 - why do you presume she has a 'pathological problem ' - why cant she just have made a series of very bad decisions and ergo deserve everything she gets. I don't use the label 'evil' because it is ridiculous. Are you saying it is societys fault? Do you think that about all criminals?
posted by numberstation at 8:37 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by numberstation at 8:37 AM on December 5, 2008
Let's keep the discussion based on facts rather than swinging generalities about the kappa-clad underclass eh? This is not the Daily Mail's letters page.
posted by Happy Dave at 8:46 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by Happy Dave at 8:46 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
because i heard a phycologist on radio 4 who had done a professional examination of her interviews - she had a real problem with that evil word as well - she threw into the pot how its women not men who get that thrown at them in care cases
posted by dprs75 at 8:46 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by dprs75 at 8:46 AM on December 5, 2008
I think using the term 'evil' is ridiculous and it allows the person using it to take away all impetus to actually consider why the subject acted in such a way as they did. It is clearly easier just to use the term evil in the same way that terrorist is bandied about with unfettered abandon. I do not think she is evil.
posted by numberstation at 8:52 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by numberstation at 8:52 AM on December 5, 2008
women not men who get that thrown at them in care cases
A lot of that is because, as we see women as the primary caregivers and nurturers in our culture, it seems to be more of an aberration for a mother to cause harm to a child - compare the differences with Myra Hindley and her equally culpable partner Ian Brady in popular consciousness. Hence the use of 'evil', a dehumanising term suggesting the acts committed happened somehow outside of normal human nature.
posted by mippy at 8:57 AM on December 5, 2008
A lot of that is because, as we see women as the primary caregivers and nurturers in our culture, it seems to be more of an aberration for a mother to cause harm to a child - compare the differences with Myra Hindley and her equally culpable partner Ian Brady in popular consciousness. Hence the use of 'evil', a dehumanising term suggesting the acts committed happened somehow outside of normal human nature.
posted by mippy at 8:57 AM on December 5, 2008
Yes, but let's not forget that - according to the Daily Mirror - Shannon Matthews is pure evil.
posted by hnnrs at 8:58 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by hnnrs at 8:58 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
Fred and Rose West were a lovely traditional family with a long and solid marriage and Fred ran his own business!
posted by Abiezer at 8:58 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by Abiezer at 8:58 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
hey but myra had it going on - great hairstyle and drop dead good looks - don't hurt me
posted by dprs75 at 8:59 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by dprs75 at 8:59 AM on December 5, 2008
Long, angry post written, sworn at, and then deleted, but I give you the gist: longbaugh, you're wronger than wrong.
posted by Jofus at 9:08 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by Jofus at 9:08 AM on December 5, 2008
Myra could have touched up her roots before the police photographer called her in.
posted by mippy at 9:12 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by mippy at 9:12 AM on December 5, 2008
I like that not so perfect thing - a bit of rough - i must stop this
posted by dprs75 at 9:14 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by dprs75 at 9:14 AM on December 5, 2008
ok the subject of cute dodgy suspects the McCann dad - woof woof
posted by dprs75 at 9:14 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by dprs75 at 9:14 AM on December 5, 2008
a benefits system that makes dependency a better choice than taking personal responsibility for ones life.
"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"
Honestly, you Brits are sounding more and more like characters in Dickens novels. I won't be surprised if public flogging and sendng petty criminals to Australia makes a comeback.
posted by happyroach at 9:24 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"
Honestly, you Brits are sounding more and more like characters in Dickens novels. I won't be surprised if public flogging and sendng petty criminals to Australia makes a comeback.
posted by happyroach at 9:24 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
Brits are sounding more and more like characters in Dickens novels
ha ha ha - torture - ha ha ha - guantanamo - ha ha ha
posted by dprs75 at 9:26 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
ha ha ha - torture - ha ha ha - guantanamo - ha ha ha
posted by dprs75 at 9:26 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
Whenever I see grand, general statements about "them" and how "they" are stupid/poor/lazy/irresponsible I get uncomfortable. Life is messy. You can try to take care of the poor, and some people will take advantage of it, or you can not, and some people will go hungry/homeless. I'd rather err on the side of life, even if I pay more in taxes to support a few freeloaders. Get over yourself. You have a responsibility to your community, not just yourself.
You damned liberal, you!
posted by notreally at 9:26 AM on December 5, 2008
You damned liberal, you!
posted by notreally at 9:26 AM on December 5, 2008
Brits are sounding more and more like characters in Dickens novels
I'm so glad I moved to what is about to become a big Steinbeck novel.
posted by Artw at 9:29 AM on December 5, 2008 [4 favorites]
I'm so glad I moved to what is about to become a big Steinbeck novel.
posted by Artw at 9:29 AM on December 5, 2008 [4 favorites]
I'm so glad I moved to what is about to become a big Steinbeck novel.
Oooh! I hope it's Travels with Charley!
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:47 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
Oooh! I hope it's Travels with Charley!
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:47 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
Italics, you have betrayed me again.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:47 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:47 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
I did not say it is an easier life, what I said was there is a choice and people who grow up with parents who are dependent on the state have a tendancy to continue to live in that manner. I am not tarring single parents or those who live on council estates. My sister in law is a single mother who lives on a council estate but unlike the vast majority of those she lives side by side along, she goes to work.
Even if this were true - that people who receive benefits have a "tendency" to continue to stay on them (and with the number of people accepting unemployment benefits in the UK having fallen to its lowest level in 33 years, that's very hard to believe), and that "the vast majority" in council estates don't work - what would your solution be then? Honestly. I'd love to know what you recommend we do with all these lazy, shiftless poor people who are apparently living fat off the dole. Maybe cut their benefits, show them a little tough love? Light a fire under them and they'll find jobs, is that it? I hear a lot of people kvetch about "the poor" like most people complain about the weather but offer absolutely no alternatives that have shown a workable solution.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:07 AM on December 5, 2008
Even if this were true - that people who receive benefits have a "tendency" to continue to stay on them (and with the number of people accepting unemployment benefits in the UK having fallen to its lowest level in 33 years, that's very hard to believe), and that "the vast majority" in council estates don't work - what would your solution be then? Honestly. I'd love to know what you recommend we do with all these lazy, shiftless poor people who are apparently living fat off the dole. Maybe cut their benefits, show them a little tough love? Light a fire under them and they'll find jobs, is that it? I hear a lot of people kvetch about "the poor" like most people complain about the weather but offer absolutely no alternatives that have shown a workable solution.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:07 AM on December 5, 2008
I've been unemployed for three years now. I didn't plan it or want it, it just sort of happened. You get stuck there and you can't get away.
I assumed I'd get a job within the first month or two, but I wasn't successful in any of the initial burst of interviews I got.
After six months or so I stopped getting any interviews, and my savings had run out, and I'd sold my car, and I'd started looking for anything, basically, but still nothing. Six months becomes a year. Time slows down, and simultaneously disappears. You spend your life walking around town, reading books, trying to learn new things, trying to improve your cv, whatever that really means. You're polite to everyone, but it never really helps. You stop going out and getting drunk. You stop seeing your friends. You start talking to your cats. You feel vaguely ashamed and inadequate almost constantly
After three years, you've gotten used to not even getting interviews for part time work in the library, or saturday jobs at the supermarket. You've gotten used to being patronised and ignored, lied to and lied about. You've gotten used to living on £3,000 a year. You've gotten used to not being able to afford to really travel anywhere. You've gotten used to having your self esteem eroded down to nothing. You've gotten used to all the time you have, gotten used to having nothing to do and nowhere to go. You've gotten used to it all because its all you know and you can't even remember what its like to work anymore. And truth be told, you kind of like it, and you can't even be bothered to feel ashamed about that anymore.
posted by dng at 10:21 AM on December 5, 2008 [34 favorites]
I assumed I'd get a job within the first month or two, but I wasn't successful in any of the initial burst of interviews I got.
After six months or so I stopped getting any interviews, and my savings had run out, and I'd sold my car, and I'd started looking for anything, basically, but still nothing. Six months becomes a year. Time slows down, and simultaneously disappears. You spend your life walking around town, reading books, trying to learn new things, trying to improve your cv, whatever that really means. You're polite to everyone, but it never really helps. You stop going out and getting drunk. You stop seeing your friends. You start talking to your cats. You feel vaguely ashamed and inadequate almost constantly
After three years, you've gotten used to not even getting interviews for part time work in the library, or saturday jobs at the supermarket. You've gotten used to being patronised and ignored, lied to and lied about. You've gotten used to living on £3,000 a year. You've gotten used to not being able to afford to really travel anywhere. You've gotten used to having your self esteem eroded down to nothing. You've gotten used to all the time you have, gotten used to having nothing to do and nowhere to go. You've gotten used to it all because its all you know and you can't even remember what its like to work anymore. And truth be told, you kind of like it, and you can't even be bothered to feel ashamed about that anymore.
posted by dng at 10:21 AM on December 5, 2008 [34 favorites]
Just seen it on the evening news... glad to see the neighbours have got their Christmas lights up (or perhaps it's just to stop the press looking in)
Great documentary on it last night where it came out Matthews had basically being drugging Shannon with tamazipan during the school holidays to keep her quite. Nice.
Looks like the social services are to cop the blame - there was a report on Matthews five years ago saying she had no empathy for her children and should have constant close monitoring, which she seems not have gotten. Of course it doesn't take much to swing the other way and you get a Cleveland/Orkney situation were every parent is a assumed evil.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:21 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
Great documentary on it last night where it came out Matthews had basically being drugging Shannon with tamazipan during the school holidays to keep her quite. Nice.
Looks like the social services are to cop the blame - there was a report on Matthews five years ago saying she had no empathy for her children and should have constant close monitoring, which she seems not have gotten. Of course it doesn't take much to swing the other way and you get a Cleveland/Orkney situation were every parent is a assumed evil.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:21 AM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
I've not taken up kidnapping children yet, though
posted by dng at 10:21 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by dng at 10:21 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
Am I the only one that saw temazepam, but thought diazepam? Now all I can think is "Well, at least she won't be addicted to Valium."
posted by aliceinreality at 10:25 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by aliceinreality at 10:25 AM on December 5, 2008
I think using temazepam on your kid and hiding them away from you in a fake kidnapping in order to get money is, perhaps, grounds for considering that someone may in fact be a bit pathologically inclined.
posted by batmonkey at 10:35 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by batmonkey at 10:35 AM on December 5, 2008
MissingPhotogenicWhiteGirlFilter
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:37 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:37 AM on December 5, 2008
There was an interesting stat in the paper today - 50 years ago, 2/3 of adults of working age living in social housing had jobs. Now it's 1/3.
It's hard enough to get a job at the best times. As dng lays out so clearly, once you're out of work, you slowly slide into unemployability, regardless of skills. And many people living in social housing are the poorest in society, with the problems of education and self-worth that go along with that. Yes, there are people who drag themselves up and even try to build a community - but generational poverty and joblessness does real damage.
It's very easy to think, from a well-off middle class background, that *I* wouldn't be like that - that it wouldn't happen to *me*. When you have a decent education, a decent house, and live in a decent area with a decent job, yes, you probably would bounce back from a setback.
But coming from nothing, with no expectations, crap schools that only get the worst teachers with massive behaviour problems, no chance of any job that's better than the local chicken plucking factory or pushing trolleys at tesco, and probably for less money than you get on benefits - when you end up pregnant young because there's nothing else to do, and fleeting sex passes for affection - and at least the baby will love you unconditionally - or you father a baby young because, well, it's sex innit?
Social breakdown, generational poverty and joblessness is a serious and growing problem, especially outside the south-east of england. I don't blame people stuck in that situation for not living great lives, but I don't give them an entirely free pass either - there are still plenty of people in social housing with jobs, families and living responsibly and within their means.
I wish I had the answers. What worries me is I don't think anybody else does either.
posted by ArkhanJG at 10:43 AM on December 5, 2008 [5 favorites]
It's hard enough to get a job at the best times. As dng lays out so clearly, once you're out of work, you slowly slide into unemployability, regardless of skills. And many people living in social housing are the poorest in society, with the problems of education and self-worth that go along with that. Yes, there are people who drag themselves up and even try to build a community - but generational poverty and joblessness does real damage.
It's very easy to think, from a well-off middle class background, that *I* wouldn't be like that - that it wouldn't happen to *me*. When you have a decent education, a decent house, and live in a decent area with a decent job, yes, you probably would bounce back from a setback.
But coming from nothing, with no expectations, crap schools that only get the worst teachers with massive behaviour problems, no chance of any job that's better than the local chicken plucking factory or pushing trolleys at tesco, and probably for less money than you get on benefits - when you end up pregnant young because there's nothing else to do, and fleeting sex passes for affection - and at least the baby will love you unconditionally - or you father a baby young because, well, it's sex innit?
Social breakdown, generational poverty and joblessness is a serious and growing problem, especially outside the south-east of england. I don't blame people stuck in that situation for not living great lives, but I don't give them an entirely free pass either - there are still plenty of people in social housing with jobs, families and living responsibly and within their means.
I wish I had the answers. What worries me is I don't think anybody else does either.
posted by ArkhanJG at 10:43 AM on December 5, 2008 [5 favorites]
I had heard on a talk show some time ago that the "problem of the poor" just isn't going to go away. There's apparently nothing that anyone can do to completely eradicate poverty in a country without utterly wholesale changes, something to do with capitalism and they way it naturally creates a hierarchy of wealth that requires a large-ish base of poor people. I've been searching for links but can't seem to find it. The talk was definitely depressing, so I'm hoping the economist (?) arguing the point was full of it. Anyone heard of this before?
posted by illiad at 10:49 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by illiad at 10:49 AM on December 5, 2008
Oh and Matthews was 20 when she had her first child... so that's another point against the 'gym-slip mother' stereotype
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:54 AM on December 5, 2008
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:54 AM on December 5, 2008
So, lone parents and council estate tenants are evil, lazy, depraved dolescum, like Karen Matthews. But the other parents on the estate were the first to volunteer time and money to help find a little girl that some of them didn't know? When hordes of London-based journos in expensive coats take 20% of their weekly wage to give to a campaign to find the child of someone who lives three streets over, I'll be slightly less bitter about the snobbery in some of the coverage of this case. When you're on benefits, and it's as cold a winter as it was last February, that £15 you donated to help find Shannon might have been what stopped you from topping up your lekky or gas to keep your house warm.
I live about 8 miles from Dewsbury. It's nothing like it was presented in the media. It's a decent place. Hilly old mill town with lots of grand buildings carved in yellow Yorkshire grit. Terrific local market. Really friendly little town. There were a few puff pieces about the decent folk of Dewsbury and of the Moorside estate last night, but we're talking 10 minutes of coverage in hours and hours of negative coverage of the estate and the region. It adds salt to the wounds.
People in places like Dewsbury and Batley know they're poor. They know that the outside world thinks they're a little tacky and grubby. They know they live in unappealing housing estates and that the world knows they pull down benefits. The way that even this really lovely effort and community spirit has been glossed over in the media's coverage of Karen Matthews? Or in the rush to point the finger at benefits culture? It's just another thing that makes people who live in that area feel slightly more crap about themselves. Even the good thing that they did as a community makes them look a little foolish.
posted by Grrlscout at 11:10 AM on December 5, 2008 [11 favorites]
I live about 8 miles from Dewsbury. It's nothing like it was presented in the media. It's a decent place. Hilly old mill town with lots of grand buildings carved in yellow Yorkshire grit. Terrific local market. Really friendly little town. There were a few puff pieces about the decent folk of Dewsbury and of the Moorside estate last night, but we're talking 10 minutes of coverage in hours and hours of negative coverage of the estate and the region. It adds salt to the wounds.
People in places like Dewsbury and Batley know they're poor. They know that the outside world thinks they're a little tacky and grubby. They know they live in unappealing housing estates and that the world knows they pull down benefits. The way that even this really lovely effort and community spirit has been glossed over in the media's coverage of Karen Matthews? Or in the rush to point the finger at benefits culture? It's just another thing that makes people who live in that area feel slightly more crap about themselves. Even the good thing that they did as a community makes them look a little foolish.
posted by Grrlscout at 11:10 AM on December 5, 2008 [11 favorites]
...Maybe it's me, but I'm not seeing what the social impact of chronic poverty has to do with the fact that faking your own child's kidnapping is a fucked-up thing to do.
Surely we can all agree on that, yes?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:20 AM on December 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
Surely we can all agree on that, yes?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:20 AM on December 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
I had heard on a talk show some time ago that the "problem of the poor" just isn't going to go away. There's apparently nothing that anyone can do to completely eradicate poverty in a country without utterly wholesale changes, something to do with capitalism and they way it naturally creates a hierarchy of wealth that requires a large-ish base of poor people. I've been searching for links but can't seem to find it. The talk was definitely depressing, so I'm hoping the economist (?) arguing the point was full of it. Anyone heard of this before?
That's nothing revolutionary- hell, I came up with it in high school. A capitalist system at all times requires a certain number of people who need work- people who will take just about any conditions of labour because having a horrible job that pays very little is better than no job at all. Without that pool of impoverished and desperate people, playing the working class against itself becomes difficult, wages go up, and economists start to babble on about how low unemployment harms the economy.
Globalization affects this by allowing the working class to be played against one another internationally- so now it's no longer just the desperate segment of your own nation competing against you for jobs but the desperate of the entire world. The exporting of manufacturing jobs to foreign yet domestically-owned sweatshops is the classic example of this, but there's a twist most people don't understand: once the sweatshop's been going for awhile (usually around ten years) and the standard of living and wage expectation have risen, the sweatshop gets shut down and moved to another place where the wage expectations are low. With the industry suddenly gone, standard of living and wage expectation drop to their original levels over a period of years... at which point they're low enough to be once again attractive to Western companies looking for cheap labour.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:22 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
That's nothing revolutionary- hell, I came up with it in high school. A capitalist system at all times requires a certain number of people who need work- people who will take just about any conditions of labour because having a horrible job that pays very little is better than no job at all. Without that pool of impoverished and desperate people, playing the working class against itself becomes difficult, wages go up, and economists start to babble on about how low unemployment harms the economy.
Globalization affects this by allowing the working class to be played against one another internationally- so now it's no longer just the desperate segment of your own nation competing against you for jobs but the desperate of the entire world. The exporting of manufacturing jobs to foreign yet domestically-owned sweatshops is the classic example of this, but there's a twist most people don't understand: once the sweatshop's been going for awhile (usually around ten years) and the standard of living and wage expectation have risen, the sweatshop gets shut down and moved to another place where the wage expectations are low. With the industry suddenly gone, standard of living and wage expectation drop to their original levels over a period of years... at which point they're low enough to be once again attractive to Western companies looking for cheap labour.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:22 AM on December 5, 2008 [3 favorites]
Oh, and if you think I'm exaggerating capitalism's need for working-class desperation because I'm a crazy leftist, check out the way the Reagan administration changed how unemployment is reported. The unemployment rate in the US has been understated by a consistent 3-6% since the mid-80's because Reagan's economic advisors believed that there is a "natural rate of unemployment". This is how you get inane horseshit like the 1990's "negative" unemployment rates and why economists spent the economic boom warning that historically low levels of unemployment were terrible for the economy.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:28 AM on December 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:28 AM on December 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
There was an interesting stat in the paper today - 50 years ago, 2/3 of adults of working age living in social housing had jobs. Now it's 1/3.
Did they mention that 30% of the population used to live in council housing compared to 10% today?
This naturally makes it much harder to get a council house if you have a job.
posted by Olli at 11:32 AM on December 5, 2008
Did they mention that 30% of the population used to live in council housing compared to 10% today?
This naturally makes it much harder to get a council house if you have a job.
posted by Olli at 11:32 AM on December 5, 2008
The unemployment rate in the US has been understated by a consistent 3-6% since the mid-80's ... the Reagan administration ...
This isn't strictly true. There are six measures of unemployment collected by the BLS. The most commonly reported is U3 (total unemployed, as a percent of the civilian labor force), but U6 (total unemployed plus marginally attached plus those who settled for part-time employment even though they want a full-time job) is much higher. The collection and calculation has been adjusted periodically to deal with changes in the workforce such as the entry of women and the decline in seasonal employment. There was a change in 1982 to conform US standards with those of the ILO, although some differences persist, particularly in the treatment of passive jobseekers. This 1982 change may be what you're referring to. In any case, I'm sure every president would prefer to point to U3 versus U6.
posted by dhartung at 12:42 PM on December 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
This isn't strictly true. There are six measures of unemployment collected by the BLS. The most commonly reported is U3 (total unemployed, as a percent of the civilian labor force), but U6 (total unemployed plus marginally attached plus those who settled for part-time employment even though they want a full-time job) is much higher. The collection and calculation has been adjusted periodically to deal with changes in the workforce such as the entry of women and the decline in seasonal employment. There was a change in 1982 to conform US standards with those of the ILO, although some differences persist, particularly in the treatment of passive jobseekers. This 1982 change may be what you're referring to. In any case, I'm sure every president would prefer to point to U3 versus U6.
posted by dhartung at 12:42 PM on December 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
I had heard on a talk show some time ago that the "problem of the poor" just isn't going to go away. There's apparently nothing that anyone can do to completely eradicate poverty in a country without utterly wholesale changes, something to do with capitalism and they way it naturally creates a hierarchy of wealth that requires a large-ish base of poor people. I've been searching for links but can't seem to find it.
Marx's formulation called this the reserve army of labour
posted by Abiezer at 2:42 PM on December 5, 2008
Marx's formulation called this the reserve army of labour
posted by Abiezer at 2:42 PM on December 5, 2008
Maybe it's me, but I'm not seeing what the social impact of chronic poverty has to do with the fact that faking your own child's kidnapping is a fucked-up thing to do.
Desperation can induce people to do desperate things. Living on benefits, long term, so that you've *never* quite got enough to make ends meet, are always a little (or a lot) in debt, never get the kind of little pleasures and consolations that other people take for granted -- I can see how someone in that situation could think it might be a good idea to run some sort of scam to try and get ahead, try and get a break from that incessant, grinding poverty.
And if you're not that smart, all manner of bad ideas can seem plausible when you're desperate. The prisons are full of people who aren't wicked, their just poor and not very clever. And once you embark on a stupid plan, they have a habit of snowballing, making themselves very difficult to extricate yourself from until the plan has played out -- generally to its tragic end.
But, someone correct me if I'm wrong, didn't I hear a report on the radio today that suggested that although this woman was poor, Social Service had several years ago identified that she lacked the wherewithal (either because of psychiatric problems or learning disabilities or something) to care for her own children without extensive help and support.
Which, once again, was never forthcoming.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:03 PM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
Desperation can induce people to do desperate things. Living on benefits, long term, so that you've *never* quite got enough to make ends meet, are always a little (or a lot) in debt, never get the kind of little pleasures and consolations that other people take for granted -- I can see how someone in that situation could think it might be a good idea to run some sort of scam to try and get ahead, try and get a break from that incessant, grinding poverty.
And if you're not that smart, all manner of bad ideas can seem plausible when you're desperate. The prisons are full of people who aren't wicked, their just poor and not very clever. And once you embark on a stupid plan, they have a habit of snowballing, making themselves very difficult to extricate yourself from until the plan has played out -- generally to its tragic end.
But, someone correct me if I'm wrong, didn't I hear a report on the radio today that suggested that although this woman was poor, Social Service had several years ago identified that she lacked the wherewithal (either because of psychiatric problems or learning disabilities or something) to care for her own children without extensive help and support.
Which, once again, was never forthcoming.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:03 PM on December 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
There ought to be a Shameless reference in here somewhere.
posted by pharm at 3:04 AM on December 6, 2008
posted by pharm at 3:04 AM on December 6, 2008
I know that there's a lot of truth in the concept of "relative poverty", but I find it difficult to see poverty in the UK as real poverty when compared with poverty elsewhere. Real poverty means trying to survive things like little or no education opportunities, open sewers, little or no food, no healthcare, polluted drinking water. Poverty means struggling to survive. This is reality for a huge number of people.
For all the failings of the welfare state in the UK, I don't think we've got real poverty. And yes, I've lived in poor areas, on a low income. I may or may not be a twat, but I find it hard to equate someone with five children whose life revolves around watching TV with someone who scavenges rubbish for a living with her few surviving children.
I don't think income had anything to do with this case: the stupidity, greed and mental problems of a few people caused it. Look at how generous and helpful hundreds of people on the estate were during the search. Sadly income had an awful lot to do with how the case was reported.
posted by BinaryApe at 4:37 AM on December 6, 2008
For all the failings of the welfare state in the UK, I don't think we've got real poverty. And yes, I've lived in poor areas, on a low income. I may or may not be a twat, but I find it hard to equate someone with five children whose life revolves around watching TV with someone who scavenges rubbish for a living with her few surviving children.
I don't think income had anything to do with this case: the stupidity, greed and mental problems of a few people caused it. Look at how generous and helpful hundreds of people on the estate were during the search. Sadly income had an awful lot to do with how the case was reported.
posted by BinaryApe at 4:37 AM on December 6, 2008
I can see where you are coming from, BinaryApe, but I would define my terms a little differently. I think we have 'real poverty' in the UK, but very little 'extreme poverty'. The New Labour party have continued the completely irresponsible competition based management of health services started by the sociopath Magaret Thatcher et al, so the lack of resources has continued to get worse. No doubt social services, hated by the Tories as canaries for their anti-society policies, have had an equally appalling past 20 years. The importance of having a well designed, implemented and staffed safety net for the most vulnerable come to the fore of the national conscience when these cases come up, but unfortunately they are unlikely to be the last we hear of.
The disparity between expected mortality between the richest and poorest boroughs in the UK is striking.
Among men, the gap between the local authority with the lowest life expectancy - Glasgow - and the one with the highest - East Dorset - rose from 10 to 11 years over the period from 1995-97 to 2001-03. Among women, the gap increased from 7.8 to 8.4 years.
The gap between rich and poor is now bigger than it was in the 70's, class mobility has also stagnated at 70's levels. Those who are born poor are more likely to die poor and vice versa. Television is, for most of the world, the closest they are going to get to seeing the good life.
The appalling situation for Shannon Matthew's is in no way lessened by any of this, her mother is clearly a woman who has severe personality problems. The community in Dewsbury did a great job of coming together to help with the search, something any community would be proud of. The author of 'Finding Shannon' suggested that this was, in part, a result of the community intelligence that Shannon was in danger (as they had observed her mother's behaviour over the years). Unfortunately they were taken for a ride, just like the rest of us regarding the particulars of Shannon's peril.
The conspiritors in this case were looking to share £50,000 three ways. That's something like £16,500 each. The average wage in the UK is over £20,000. They were stupid, greedy, poor and pathological, but at least they haven't driven the whole world into a financial depression due to their sociopathic tendencies!
posted by asok at 7:51 AM on December 6, 2008 [3 favorites]
The disparity between expected mortality between the richest and poorest boroughs in the UK is striking.
Among men, the gap between the local authority with the lowest life expectancy - Glasgow - and the one with the highest - East Dorset - rose from 10 to 11 years over the period from 1995-97 to 2001-03. Among women, the gap increased from 7.8 to 8.4 years.
The gap between rich and poor is now bigger than it was in the 70's, class mobility has also stagnated at 70's levels. Those who are born poor are more likely to die poor and vice versa. Television is, for most of the world, the closest they are going to get to seeing the good life.
The appalling situation for Shannon Matthew's is in no way lessened by any of this, her mother is clearly a woman who has severe personality problems. The community in Dewsbury did a great job of coming together to help with the search, something any community would be proud of. The author of 'Finding Shannon' suggested that this was, in part, a result of the community intelligence that Shannon was in danger (as they had observed her mother's behaviour over the years). Unfortunately they were taken for a ride, just like the rest of us regarding the particulars of Shannon's peril.
The conspiritors in this case were looking to share £50,000 three ways. That's something like £16,500 each. The average wage in the UK is over £20,000. They were stupid, greedy, poor and pathological, but at least they haven't driven the whole world into a financial depression due to their sociopathic tendencies!
posted by asok at 7:51 AM on December 6, 2008 [3 favorites]
And yes, I've lived in poor areas, on a low income.
My guess though, is that you always viewed it as a temporary condition, and never a life-long sentence. Periods of post-uni slumming while you figured out what you 'really' wanted to do with your life don't really count, IMO.
There's a reason why even the 'respectable' working classes, let alone the middle classes don't pull strokes like this -- they don't need to. They don't want to put what little they *have* got in jeopardy. Stupid plans like this only occur to people who've got fuck all, and don't stand a chance of getting anything other than fuck all for the forseeable future.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:11 PM on December 6, 2008
My guess though, is that you always viewed it as a temporary condition, and never a life-long sentence. Periods of post-uni slumming while you figured out what you 'really' wanted to do with your life don't really count, IMO.
There's a reason why even the 'respectable' working classes, let alone the middle classes don't pull strokes like this -- they don't need to. They don't want to put what little they *have* got in jeopardy. Stupid plans like this only occur to people who've got fuck all, and don't stand a chance of getting anything other than fuck all for the forseeable future.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:11 PM on December 6, 2008
Or as a wise man once said:
Rent a flat above a shop,
cut your hair and get a job.
Smoke some fags and play some pool,
pretend you never went to school.
But still you'll never get it right,
cos when you're laid in bed at night,
watching roaches climb the wall,
if you call your Dad he could stop it all.
posted by seanyboy at 3:43 AM on December 9, 2008
Rent a flat above a shop,
cut your hair and get a job.
Smoke some fags and play some pool,
pretend you never went to school.
But still you'll never get it right,
cos when you're laid in bed at night,
watching roaches climb the wall,
if you call your Dad he could stop it all.
posted by seanyboy at 3:43 AM on December 9, 2008
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Incidentally, Madeline's parents should have been charged for their utter failure to act as responsible adults and either bring the children with them or arrange an actual babysitter. Heaven forbid that they get away with it because they were attractive and rich.
Fuck all of them for their utter inhumanity and inability to correctly raise and care for children.
posted by longbaugh at 8:09 AM on December 5, 2008 [2 favorites]