May 18, 2001

10:00 PM

Is it possible that Kaycee did not exist? This is a really delicate thing here. Please be really thoughtful about this. I promise I am not trying to stir the shit without cause. There are some people who are wondering whether Kaycee was a real 19-year-old leukemia patient, and whether things actually occurred the way they've been reported online. More inside, friends.
posted by acridrabbit (309 comments total)

sure, it might not be real. does it really matter? if nothing else, the story of kaycee's death was a moving experience for some people. which is more than you can say for a lot of weblogs. (including mine.) if the story is not genuine, certainly the intentions of the wellwishers are as well.
posted by moz at 10:15 PM on May 18, 2001

wtf?
posted by sylloge at 10:21 PM on May 18, 2001

There seem to have been enough people who met Kaycee in real life or on the web (chat @ collegeclub, etc.) for her to have been fake. Either that, or there's a huge number of people in on the conspiracy.
posted by SpecialK at 10:22 PM on May 18, 2001

ever heard of B1FF?
posted by moz at 10:26 PM on May 18, 2001

First there was this.

Then there was this.

And then, also, this.

Some things: (with permission, quoting from an email I got today)

"While I suppose it is quite within the realm of possibility that many people were using an outdated address to send things (I've done that myself) how would Debbie or BWG know that anything was arriving at an address that has not been in use for quite some time?

From the message boards relating to the death, I was given the impression that she died at home, very suddenly, and without pain. However, even if her death were attended [by a doctor], they both said in the blogs that they didn't know what had caused her sudden death. Then they came back with the information that it was a ruptured vein. Since that's an internal injury, and not outwardly visible, the body would have had to have been opened. If the death was attended by a doctor, and he/she was happy to sign off on it and send her to the mortician, that still only leaves 2 days to have her embalmed, cremated, to make all the arrangements for a memorial service, for everyone to attend a memorial service (and according to the blogs, her father lived out of state) to have everything on Thursday already wrapped and announced that it's been done. "

Inconsistencies in the archives of Kaycee's and Debbie's blogs:

The thing with leukemia- doctors don't say "no cancer detected".

"Leukemia recovery and remission is measured in abnormal cell count v normal cell count in the blood marrow. It's a terrible, terrible disease, and you can
have an extended symptom-free period and still be considered as a patient with active leukemia. What i know right now is {kaycee/debbie/somebody?] made serious mistakes in describing how a marrow transplant occurs, as well as making a lot of errors regarding [Kaycee's] periodic bouts of consciousness/unconsciousness.

"IF Debbie called their webhost the minute Kaycee died, and then he posted that very minute, then someone in HK could have the same date stamp as Debbie's announcements in Kaycee and Debbie's journals. I've also focused on the regular updates about Kaycee's health
when she was in the hospital before her demise, and somehow, a man in Hong Kong always knows on the same date and approximate time as Debbie when something bad happens, and just -happens- to post in the 2 hour window that would keep them on the same date."
posted by acridrabbit at 10:30 PM on May 18, 2001

Anyone seen this? (Note: I have no opinion about Kaycee.)
posted by Steven Den Beste at 10:38 PM on May 18, 2001

SpecialK, no one claims to have met KayCee in real life. No one had ever talked to her on the phone. There are people who say they've chatted with her online, but that means nothing.

I really hope that I'm wrong about this. I hope with all my heart that Kaycee was a real person, and that all the folks who cared about her are grieving for a real person.
posted by acridrabbit at 10:41 PM on May 18, 2001

Frankly, it's amazing to be able to see the Salon headlines before they're written...

Like it or not, this is big news now. Blogging community, welcome to your first real scandal.
posted by tweebiscuit at 10:47 PM on May 18, 2001

Twee, you think this is true? That Kaycee was Halcyon's or somebody's construct?

I mean, I want it NOT to be true. I hate the thought that a bunch of people are grieving over somebody who did not existi!
posted by acridrabbit at 10:56 PM on May 18, 2001

Acridrabbit -- I only knew about Kaycee peripherally, from the MeFi and Blogger frontpage links. (My reaction: "Oh, someone I don't know died. That's sad...") The first two articles you linked to pretty much clinched it for me, though -- primarily the part about the conspicuous lack of obituaries. I haven't done any fact-checking myself, because I'm not involved, but I also agree that the girl in the photos looks like a model from a girls' clothing catalogue.

But rabbit, listen to yourself:

I mean, I want it NOT to be true.

You do? Either a girl died, or a lot people's feelings were hurt. I know which one I'd pick.

(Sorry for being off-handed, everyone -- but I'm more or less convinced. If evidence ever comes out to the contrary -- well, someone please punch me in the face.)
posted by tweebiscuit at 11:01 PM on May 18, 2001

I don't know much about the situation, but I can say with a bit of certainty that this isn't a hoax created by Halcyon.

Halcyon's got a geniune love for all things. Anyone who's met him could tell you that.

Of course the topic of this thread is basically: "We aren't what we seem on the web." so that could probably be a big act, but I'd put money on Halcyon's authenticity.
posted by christian at 11:02 PM on May 18, 2001

Is there anyone here with Nexis access? They could run a search to see if any obits showed up anywhere for anyone named "Kaycee Nicole."

And I agree, that photo on the front page doesn't exactly look like it came from the Sears Portrait Studio. It looks like it came out of a magazine. And the girl looks older than 19 too.

This is all circumstantial at best, of course.
posted by aaron at 11:15 PM on May 18, 2001

This kind of fakery is not outside the realm of possibility. I knew a woman on another online service who I'm fairly sure faked her own death of cancer, among the other lies that she spun (one was that she was an artist and regularly sold paintins for tens of thousands of dollars). There was, naturally, much wailing at her "passing." I actually talked to her on the phone several times and at one point, when she was supposedly in the hospital, I heard a dog barking fairly close by. She claimed she didn't hear it. About a year later, I believe she made a reappearance as one of her "friends" who had married the first woman's widower (hence the same last name on the account), and was conveniently deaf so she couldn't take voice calls -- a fact that somehow wasn't mentioned until I asked to talk to her. This woman was sick, all right -- mentally. But I don't believe she died even once.
posted by kindall at 11:18 PM on May 18, 2001

I don't know, some of the concerns could probably be explained by someone involved with it.

If it was a hoax, it's the most elaborate net-hoax I've ever seen. It would mean that her original page is fake and every email john shared with her was answered by someone else. I've gotten email from Debbie before, was that fake?

It seems much too elaborate to be faked, if it was, wouldn't someone slip up along the way? I mean how could someone keep a story going for almost a year, with hundreds of posts, as several personalities, and never screw up until the end? It doesn't seem possible. Maybe they lied about living in Kansas, big deal.
posted by mathowie at 11:19 PM on May 18, 2001

Munchausen-by-email-proxy?
posted by aaron at 11:21 PM on May 18, 2001 [1 favorite]

Mathowie, two things:

1) No one had been looking for a screwup before, because there was no reason to doubt her. Are you constantly checking your net-friends' stories to see if they check out?

2) With that said, the opposite is also true: it's easy to see a hoax if one looks hard enough. (Note my above post about how her photo "looks" fake -- obviously, that's terrible evidence.)
posted by tweebiscuit at 11:27 PM on May 18, 2001

suppose debbie is kaycee.
posted by moz at 11:28 PM on May 18, 2001 [2 favorites]

and, while i'm thinking about it, kaycee makes perfect sense as a name for an outgoing and positive persona. kc and the sunshine band.
posted by moz at 11:29 PM on May 18, 2001

STOP! STOP!! STOP!!!

this is deplorable. it's making me sick to my stomach!

i have spoken to kaycee on the phone, as well as her mother, numerous times. i can assure you kaycee was quite real.

there are many holes in the theory in those heartless, sickening articles. someone clearly does not have all the facts, and the conclusions he has jumped to are ludicrous.

has it ever occurred to anyone that kaycee nicole was her first and middle name? that we left out her last name deliberately when we started this blog as a measure of protection for her and her family?

that she lives is kansas, but NOT newton, and that there was a reason for having a p.o. box there as opposed to her hometown?

kaycee was a wonderful human being. her mother is devastated by this loss.

it's not bad enough that i have lost someone so close and so dear to me, but now you are asking me to prove it?

as far as i am concerned, all the cynics can go to hell.
posted by bwg at 11:30 PM on May 18, 2001

oh, wait, that's mentioned in john's email. i knew it was too obvious.
posted by moz at 11:30 PM on May 18, 2001

that's ok bwg, i was probably going there anyway
posted by moz at 11:32 PM on May 18, 2001 [1 favorite]

i used to work for an ISP and once received a call from a group moderator. this moderator had a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and was involved with the group to assist people with a certain 'problem.' for the life of me, i cannot recall the specifics(this was 1997) of the group affliction, the best i can come up with is that they were 'delicate' people. the moderator wanted our assistance because an individual was assuming multiple identities to address the group and at one point, announced that he/she(whatever the identity happened to be) was dying and planned to commit suicide that night. then the individual ceased communicating and used the other identities to work the rest of the group into a lather. so why have i taken the time to type all of this?

in a nutshell, people are fucked up(case in point, Pat McGroin).

the internet provides the anonymity some people seek in order to call attention to themselves or prove a point. while i don't want to be callous if in fact someone has passed, this could very well be a hoax and rather than roundup the local lynch mob, i suggest waiting to see where the pieces fall after it shakes out a bit.
posted by donkeysuck at 11:38 PM on May 18, 2001

Just a few points I would like to make:

1. It IS possible that the memorial service could have taken place before the cremation/embalming/what have you. The difference b/t a funeral and a memorial service is that a body need not be present at a memorial service. Therefore, it is possible that the service may have taken place even as the body was being examined/prepared. Also, I was under the impression that most of her family lived nearby. Debbie mentioned going up the path where her uncle took her on piggyback. That suggests that she didn't live that far from the rest of her family.

2. Nowhere in the blogs did it say that they didn't know the cause. Bwg made it quite clear that it was a ruptured vein that caused her death.

3. Believe it or not, some people DO look like models. Even 19-year-olds. It is also possible that those pics were taken before her cancer diagnosis (like, a high school senior picture.)

Just my $.02.
Do I think Kaycee is real? YES. I have read her blogs many a time, and they are too emotional, too touching, and too compelling NOT to be real.

Hasta luego.
Redgie
posted by Redgie at 11:58 PM on May 18, 2001

Thank you for sharing that BWG. I'm sure that reading those articles and seeing the comments here must have been most distressing . . .

Still, such sentiments are not inexcusable. The web is, by it's very nature, anonymous. That's why Kaycee didn't use her full name, and it's why each of us has a nickname here on MeFi.
posted by aladfar at 11:59 PM on May 18, 2001

"IF Debbie called their webhost the minute Kaycee died, and then he posted that very minute, then someone in HK could have the same date stamp as Debbie's announcements in Kaycee and Debbie's journals. I've also focused on the regular updates about Kaycee's health
when she was in the hospital before her demise, and somehow, a man in Hong Kong always knows on the same date and approximate time as Debbie when something bad happens, and just -happens- to post in the 2 hour window that would keep them on the same date."

Um, gang? The server's in CA. Which means the postings are reflecting the time of the server, not the location of the poster. It could be next Tuesday in Hong Kong, but if it's Saturday in CA, then it's date-stamped as Saturday.

In regard to the postings on the 16th that announce her death -- those are actually smaller versions of the splash screen that was posted on the 15th, the original splash screen that was responded to right here:
http://www.metafilter.com/comments.mefi/7704

And if information of her death was posted all at the same time, in all locales, well, I'd certainly *hope* that if one of my nearest and dearest passed -- and so many others would want to know -- then the news would be posted in as many places as possible, as soon as possible, and someone would get me out of bed to do so if necessary.
posted by metrocake at 12:06 AM on May 19, 2001

My fiance and I had followed Kaycee's site for several months. When news of her death came we were saddened and talked about it over dinner.

Towards the end of our conversation we both started a sentence with the line, "you know, what if...?"

I don't think it makes anyone evil to question "anything" on the web. Although I still hope this story was not a hoax, I think it's important to remember that their are Kaycees all over the world, fighting, living, dieing, surviving one day at a time.

In the end, does it really matter?
posted by justgary at 12:20 AM on May 19, 2001

Let me add one more thing...

About the name. It is perfectly normal to not want to put your full name on your website. For the record: "Redgie" is not my name. My name is not even Redge. It was a nickname given to me a couple of years ago by a close friend. It sounded cuter than my real name, so I went with it. So is that wrong of me to put my nickname, instead of my real name, on my website?
The same principle can hold in Kaycee's case. I do think she used her real first name, but I don't know her last name, nor am I that curious about it. If they choose not to post that, it is their prerogative. It's not a matter of deception, it's a matter of protecting their privacy.


H.L.,

Redgie
posted by Redgie at 1:05 AM on May 19, 2001

justgary: In the end, does it really matter?

I thought about this for quite a bit before posting. If the site is legit, I don't mean any disrespect, but one particular aspect makes me believe that this debate truly does matter.

Until a short time ago, I regarded this as a hoax that had, at worst, taken in hundreds of caring, loving people who didn't deserve to have their emotions ravaged over someone's sick joke--in and of itself a horrible thing, but one which can and will be recovered from. However, seeing the CafePress items for sale on the site gave me serious pause. If there's even a remote possibility that the site is a hoax, the implications are mortifying. Reaping financial gain by preying upon people's innate trust and compassion is unconscionable--anyone who bought a shirt or mug deserves to know the truth. Perhaps my perception is colored by what I perceive to be some pretty strong evidence that the site isn't legitimate, but this wording seems very cagey:

This Special Edition T is sold at *zero profit.* Please make a donation to the charity of your choice, or to your local Cancer Society. Thank you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all this states is that the purveyor claims to take no profit from the item. It doesn't say that proceeds from sales are going to a charity; rather, that the buyer should donate to one independently. The statement seems in questionable judgement, at the very least.

Also, a token bit of evidence which reaffirmed my belief that it's not legit: this photo from the old site. The "Warriors" bit looks pretty badly Photoshop'd on (to me), and where's the number? I've seen very few basketball jerseys without numbers on the front, especially at the high school level (or lower). There's also some (color) bleeding around her hand--could be the JPEG compression, but it could also be a poor attempt to paint over something. Circumstantial, yes, but that's my take.

When money is at stake, a dose of cynicism--no matter how heartless it may appear--is warranted, I think.
posted by disarray at 1:08 AM on May 19, 2001

i actually spent a couple of hours this evening (before seeing this post) looking for an online obituary for kaycee in just about every newspaper in kansas and oklahoma. i wanted to know her last name so i could possibly find debbie and send her a gift. i did suspect that perhaps her name wasn't kaycee, (no big deal to me), so i looked by age instead of name.

i didn't find anything but i'd like to make it known that most of the obituaries weren't timely and some were posted today (18th) of deaths that occurred more than ten days ago.

my father had leukemia, and believe me, i don't care what the doctors say and how they put it, if your cells are even close to normal you consider yourself in remission. it's called hope. having spent over a year with a leukemia patient, i didn't notice anything in the blogs that sent up any kind of red flag or warning bell.

also, i didn't get that kaycee died at home from those posts. it was mentioned "they couldn't do anything for her". that would lead me to believe she was taken to a hospital. i don't know what the standard cremation process is, but why would she need to be embalmed?

i agree with justgary "in the end, does it really matter?" but i think if there is even a shadow of a doubt, people should think twice before doing something that could be really devastating to the family. not only did they lose their daughter but now the memory of her is being tainted.

also, the small photo that appears looked to me like it was a graduation photo.
posted by centrs at 1:17 AM on May 19, 2001

First of all, let me commend acridrabbit on the courage to actually post this question.
Second, regarding making money on shirts&mugs, here is CafePress' current pricing: $$$
posted by modofo at 1:20 AM on May 19, 2001

disarray: that was a warmup jersey she was wearing, usually worn over the actual uniforms before the game and usually not bearing any names or numbers (to be interchangeable amongst players). No doubt the warrior was photoshopped on top, but that doesn't mean the photo is a fake.
posted by gyc at 1:37 AM on May 19, 2001

as for the jersey, it's clear that the mascot name was wiped out. that is because "warrior" was kaycee's personal emblem for herself and basketball was a source of strength for her. and the hand is blurry because the mascot name is wiped out in an attempt to keep the school she attended (and was probably attending at the time) from being identified or she was holding a ball in that photo, obscuring the jersey. that is clearly the same person as in the other photos though.

the more i think about this, the more i get sickened. for every claim anyone can make that kaycee was a hoax, someone can make a counter claim that she was real. she is real to me and her writing has totally inspired me.
posted by centrs at 1:40 AM on May 19, 2001

Too strange this controversy comes concurrent with the revelation of a faked death of a fake persona at Anandtech.
posted by brantstrand at 1:47 AM on May 19, 2001

Regarding quick funerals and memorial services: I don't know what religion Kaycee was, but in Orthodox and some other variants of Judaism, a body is buried, when possible, the same day as the death, without embalment. Whatever her religion, these processes can move *fast.*

Regarding Lexis-Nexis, I did a search across a wide spectrum of newspapers and came up with nothing under those names. That means nothing: Lexis-Nexis tends only to archive major newspapers, not all newspapers that participate send in all stories (or obituaries) and there may simply be no funeral notice.
posted by Mo Nickels at 1:47 AM on May 19, 2001

I recall a hoax on an online forum that I read a long time ago, where someone became friends with a large number of people and then faked their own death by creating a new personality to deliver the news. But in that case, several of us saw through it from the beginning and basically ignored that person. When the fake death thing hit, a few of us made some comments about the absurdity of it all, there was a brief flame war that most of the doubters stayed out of, and then it all fell apart rather quickly. I also know of at least three instances of something similar occurring on Usenet newsgroups and AOL message boards, none of which I was involved in at all.

But these were brief in comparison and apparently much smaller in scale. If someone is lying to you, little things show up over time, whether you are looking at the other person under a microscope or not. I have never visited her site, nor do I know anything about the other people involved. I had not heard of her until I saw the other thread. So I have no idea what the scope of her net-presence really was, but it seems to me that someone simply having the patience to maintain a massive hoax over such a lengthy period of time is unlikely. And they are going to eventually slip up unless they are keeping detailed notes of what they have told everyone, etc. Not that I do not think there are people capable of it, I know that there are plenty of people mentally capable of that. But it just seems too vast to be at all likely. And there is no hard evidence to back up such a theory anyway.

Either way, I think this thread really underlines the paranoia and distrust of people on the Internet. Folks, you are grasping at straws at this point. The fact that people are examining pictures and trying to find problems with CafePress stores is really fascinating to me. Anyway, everyone needs to keep in mind that you can not take back things you have said after you have said them, but you can usually still say the same things later if you feel it is appropriate to do so.
posted by bargle at 1:52 AM on May 19, 2001

Thanks for setting me straight, modofo. I should've checked the pricing schedule myself. I guess I'm hypersensitive to potential hoaxes as of late. Within the past week, I've gotten five calls from individuals claiming to represent organizations with "Wish" in the title, all soliciting donations to help children with terminal illnesses. None of them were legitimate; in fact, I recall reading that none of the major "wish-granting" organizations do telephone solicitation. Still, it sickens me to think that the same people manage to con kind, vulnerable people time and time again.

bargle, I hope I don't come across as though I'm looking for conspiracy for conspiracy's sake. I'll be the first to admit that posting the CafePress thing without looking at the base prices first was a stupid thing to do, but I had no malicious intent. It really wasn't my intention to be insensitive, but I was, objectively speaking. If this means anything to you, I think part of my paranoia stems from past experience. My sisters were part of an online community for the disabled and terminally ill some time ago. On several occasions, individuals claiming to have cancer and other ailments scammed the participants with varying degrees of success. Most times, the perpetrators were obviously healthy kids seeking attention and validation and were called out immediately. But I worried that someone more intent on conning them could pull it off fairly readily, and I took every possible opportunity to make sure that they were safe.

I'm not trying to draw a parallel in any way; I simply mean to say that the whole experience made me step back and evaluate claims like those in a critical light. Am I paranoid? Probably so, and I hope those who cared for her will ignore me for the insensitive jerk I am. That said, the mere fact that some have to ask if things like this are hoaxes or not diminishes the outpouring of support the community offers, but I do believe it's just as dangerous to the memory of those who truly had to struggle to take every such incident on blind faith.
posted by disarray at 2:56 AM on May 19, 2001

Boy who cried wolf, I guess. When trolls and troublemakers lie online enough, some people get burned and then don't know the real thing when it walks up and bites them on the fanny.

Was she real to you? Did her story touch your heart? Isn't that what matters? If you want to play investigator and find the truth that's your path and you're welcome to it. If you don't want to know, that's your choice too. Reality is subjective anyway.

Just don't look back in anger.
posted by ZachsMind at 4:59 AM on May 19, 2001 [1 favorite]

Could it have been a hoax? I don't know, and I am not about to launch into a full-blown investigation into each entry and picture that ever got posted on her website, and whether these were fabricated or doctored.

I personally don't think it was faked. There was simply too much investment of heart and soul into that year-long blog for it all to have been an elaborate hoax. Someone trying to perpetuate a fiction of that sort would not have posted the kind of things that came up in her site. Or could they?
posted by brownpau at 6:17 AM on May 19, 2001

De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.

There is no amount of physical tangible evidence which would ever satisfy the doubts of some cynics. They would be as blind to it as they are to the light from Kaycee's heart which streamed through each of her journal entries.

I could go on and on about this matter but I am cutting this short as I feel a more valuable use of my time is to spend it composing a letter of condolence and sympathy to Kaycee's family.
posted by coldmarble at 7:07 AM on May 19, 2001

there are some who may be blinded by the "light" from kaycee's heart, and who may consequently refuse to be satisfied by any amount of physical evidence.

hey, do what you want. but with the anonymity and ambiguity of the internet, don't take the high road. there isn't one.
posted by moz at 8:10 AM on May 19, 2001

I know nothing about this particular instance. I also have no opinion about whether it is genuine. I would like to speak to the question, in a generic sense only, of what difference it would make if it had been faked.

It is well known now that one of the things which contributes to the success in fighting cancer is the willpower and courage of the patient. Part of what helps that is support from other people.

Suppose that a high profile case tugged the heart strings of a lot of people, and then was exposed as a fake. Then suppose that someone does genuinely become ill in exactly the same way, and then turn to the net for help and support. Wouldn't they be greeted with "Hmmph; another hoax. Can't fool me twice!" -- and not get the support they need to help save their lives?
posted by Steven Den Beste at 8:32 AM on May 19, 2001

This just keeps getting stranger:

"...someone went through her journal and removed all references to sending get well presents, her Amazon.com list, her PayPal donation page, and changed the text and prices of her merchandise on her Cafepress site to no profit..."
posted by Steven Den Beste at 8:40 AM on May 19, 2001

From Kaycee's site on 3/1/1:

First off, I sure wasn't raised to ask perfect strangers to give me money. Secondly, if I did do that I don't think I'd feel too good about what I'd bought with money I asked strangers for. I'm not sure I'd even feel I deserved it since I hadn't worked for it myself. That's all way too easy. And it's not even close to being right.

But you say, "Hey KC you have t-shirts for sale on your site." Yup, I do. But they're at cost, I don't make anything from them. And if I asked for money for anything, I'd ask you to donate it yourself to any number of awesome charities.

posted by ericost at 9:04 AM on May 19, 2001

Eric, I don't know the answer to this: Is there any guarantee that an entry labelled "3/1/1" was actually written on that day and not changed later? What the statement I quoted contended was that someone went back and rewrote history. Any way to confirm or deny it?

Anyone want to see if the Google cache is stale and holds a different version of some of the pages?
posted by Steven Den Beste at 9:10 AM on May 19, 2001

I originally found this post in the google cache.
posted by ericost at 9:20 AM on May 19, 2001

reading through her entries, I don't know how they couldn't be genuine.
posted by register at 9:32 AM on May 19, 2001

There is also nothing in the Google cache that I could find to support the claim that she ever had an amazon wish list or a PayPal account. Of course, that doesn't really prove she never did, since for all we know Google crawled her site last night.

Does anybody recall an Amazon wish list? or PayPal donations account? It seems to me if we could prove or disprove these recent claims that such things were removed from the site this whole matter might be resolved.

I for one find it of vital importance that we establish the truth or falsity of Kaycee's site and these claims of fraudulence.
posted by ericost at 9:40 AM on May 19, 2001

I for one find it of vital importance that we just go on our happy ways. IF a real family and friends are truely morning, goodness ppl we should respect that. IF this whole thing is a hoax... great, we've uncovered it, and have discovered how gullible and caring people can be... and how people can take advantage of one another. Lets get on with life people and go attend to and hug those we know in RL
posted by tsidel at 9:49 AM on May 19, 2001

I'm always amazed--not just here, but everywhere--how many people feel the truth is what you believe it to be, or that it doesn't matter if it turns out to be a hoax. I have absolutely no idea if Kaycee was real or not, but considering how big an impression the site made on people, I think it's VERY important that the truth be known. I know that if I followed her story and was touched by it, I would damn sure want to know if I had been misled.
posted by jpoulos at 10:00 AM on May 19, 2001

I found that this was handled on MetaFilter itself last September, and that thread also said they didn't want contributions.
posted by Steven Den Beste at 10:05 AM on May 19, 2001

As someone who has only just been exposed to this story, I fail to see the importance of it. It is very sad that any young person should die, but it happens.

This, KayCee, was just one person. I can't see why her particular story got blown up out of all proportion. There are millions more young people dying right now.

There's nothing wrong with helping out, or paying respect to, particular people.. but it's a bit weird when one becomes almost 'famous' just because she's dying from cancer. There's a lot more people in the world than her, folks.
posted by wackybrit at 10:10 AM on May 19, 2001

I would have emailed you tsidel, but you didn't list an address in your profile...

Wholeheartedly agree that RL hugs are more important. But people are currently making claims that this is a hoax; I certainly don't wish to disrespect a grieving family while investigating those claims, but it IS important to wade through this mess and come to a conclusion. I have the feeling that some people are emotionally invested in Kaycee and are understandably frightened of looking into the possibility of a hoax. And some have no doubts about the reality of Kaycee and don't want to be bothered by noisome muckrakers who are making unsubstantiated claims. Perhaps those people should remove themselves from the conversation.

For me, one who has watched the whole incident from a distance, I think it is important to understand what is true and what is false. The answer to that question would tell us a lot about our susceptibility to hoaxes (there is a hoax one way or another, now that some are making such bold claims of fraud) and also a lot about the internet as medium for spreading hoaxes. I am sorry if I do not have enough information to be able to conclude immediately that Kaycee is not a hoax. It seems to be highly improbable that she is, but there are enough oddities in her tale to give some credence to the accusations of fraud, and no one has come forward to offer some bit of proof that would close the case.

I only want to have an answer; there is no intent to show disrespect to anyone involved.

wackybrit: if people choose to shower love and support on one person dying of cancer, why do choose to question it? Would you tell someone grieving over the death of their grandmother that there are a lot more people in the world? Kaycee "became famous" not just because she was dying, but because she wrote openly and honestly about her experiences and her thoughts resonated with a lot of people. Please read this thread about Kaycee if you want to see what kind of company you are putting yourself in by questioning people's right to grieve for a particular person.
posted by ericost at 10:23 AM on May 19, 2001

I find it strange that the title of her blog was "Living Colours", rather than "Living Colors" (minus the 'u'). That could be because this BWG fellow who designed her blog is Canadian and created the graphic, but it seems a little strange to me.
posted by Big Fat Tycoon at 10:24 AM on May 19, 2001

I have publically naysayed before, and what stuns me the most is the argument people pounded at me, stunning in its logic...."It is true because it is true!" Ah yes, thank you, that cleared it up.

Much of the site reads like someone got their information on disease and dying from watching television - too much doesn't make sense, describes television writing conventions for illness instead of how it actually happens in real life.

For you people who say, "What does it matter?" It matters that you should know when you are reading fiction, and when you are reading nonfiction. It matters that someone decided to use your kind heart to manipulate you for their own gain.

The oldest scam in the book is to set up a sick kid, one who nobely refuses all help, and just asks for love - always, one or two of her most loyal followers, people who just really care about her, will pop up and start the collection box rolling, "in her honour". That collection box rolled through my email several times- we want to fill her room with flowers, buy her a digital camera, a scanner, send her to disney world. And each time I would politely write back, thanks, I would love to help. Send me the name of the hospital she is in, and I will send her flowers.

Of course, no one ever knew what hospital that might be. And calls to hospitals in the area she was supposed to be in didn't yield a patient matching her discription.

Elaborate Theatre? Manipulating the online Audience? Psychological Games? The New Viral Advertising Model? I was a kid like "KayCee" when I was her age. I spent a long time in hospitals, and in pain, and not knowing what the outcome would be, and it angers me to see someone trivializing that sort of experience to make it 'The New Spot', an online soap opera.
posted by kristin at 10:29 AM on May 19, 2001 [2 favorites]

I want you guys to be able to have your conversation without me getting all in the middle of it, but I do want to clarify something. Obviously I did say what was posted in Wunderblog, but I really hadn't meant for that to be posted. I was a dummy and forgot that any mail that goes there gets posted, I would have chosen my words more carefully if I had thought about it.

I don't want to make any accusations of fraud, because I honestly don't know one way or the other. Someone else working on this said that references soliciting gifts and money had been removed, but I didn't do that research myself, and I don't know one way or the other if they were ever there, or if they were edited out.

I just want to be clear that though I was speculating away in e-mail, I genuinely do not know the truth of the matter about what money may or may not have been solicited or donated by anybody. Since there's been great emphasis on no gifts, no donations since the announcement of the death, an actual criminal fraud probably isn't likely, and is probably quite improbable in this case. Um, pretty much everything else I have to say, you guys have seen, so that's all from me.
posted by headspace at 10:53 AM on May 19, 2001

Long before Kaycee had a weblog, I talked to her on the phone several times. In one conversation, I heard a young, scared girl sobbing as she tried to understand why her life had to be cut short.

Over the next 2 years, my life was enriched by what she shared in private emails, in chat, and on her site.

Did I ever meet her in real life? No.

Does any of the above conversation dim the light she brought into my life? No.
posted by halcyon at 11:00 AM on May 19, 2001

I know nothing about this blog, never read it until I scanned a bit after this post, so I have no emotional involvement whatsoever. Much that is posted online is authentic, more is valid, and perhaps the majority is neither. I neither know nor much care which is the case with this site/scenario.

I would contend, however, that once someone chooses to involve any aspect of their life in a public forum, they open themselves to the consequences of that, anticipated or otherwise. If this was indeed a real girl, she chose to make her writings available to countless strangers, and as in the case a while back of the "found journal" posted online, at that point the words become not merely personal, protected reflection but public text. And one can never anticipate or control what the public will do with a given text once it gets its hands on it (e.g., the Bible). If she was not real but a fictitous creation, that adds even more "meta" levels to the text.

In either case, it is entirely appropriate for anyone to interpret, discuss, investigate, analyze or take from it what they will.
posted by rushmc at 11:04 AM on May 19, 2001

ericost: You really can't grieve for someone you don't know, not in an -- I usually mistrust the use of the word, but it applies here -- authentic way. The "person" is only an abstraction, a mental construct. You don't even have proof of the person in question's actually being a human being here, only the weblog and someone's saying he heard her voice over a phone. Even grieving for, say, Princess Di was not authentic grief, but you could say that Diana was an actual person. Maybe not the one you saw on TV, maybe not the one of myth, but an actual person.

Either way, in such cases one "grieves," if you can call it that, in a way similar to the way you grieve at the movies, or grieve when a famous actor or writer or singer dies -- for humanity, for all the pain in the world, because of what that the mythology built around a person or that person's artistic works meant to you. Or perhaps you're just being sentimental. Sometimes it's hard to tell.

I don't mind all of that, for such "grieving" can still be a real healing agent, for lack of a better phrase, even though the sorrow differs substantially from the grief you'd feel if someone actually close to you died.

Considerably more bothersome are promiscuous, public grieving for someone you don't know. First off, there is that whole mob psychology factor. Then there is a reason every major religion does not encourage overt, individual public displays of grief, charity or devotion. Such displayed cheapen the real thing, so to speak.
posted by raysmj at 11:17 AM on May 19, 2001 [2 favorites]

I've been reading about all of this for a couple of hours, and I've been thinking very hard before posting. This is obviously a very sensitive subject for a lot of people, and I think it's important to be mindful of that.

If Kaycee is a real person and has died, the debate over the hoax or non-hoax must be a particularly difficult burden on her family, who are already dealing with pain and loss. If it is true, my sympathy goes out to them.

First, I'll say that I have not followed the Kaycee story; it's arrival on MetaFilter was my intro. I have no opinion at all as to the veracity of the story, because I'm a proof addict and I see no absolute proof in either direction. But I don't think it really matters if it's true or not, and here's why.

Kaycee, either the real Kaycee or the Kaycee that has been invented, has positively impacted many lives. She has generated some awareness for cancer; she has educated many people (even if some of the information was false, as has been claimed); she has produced good will and positive feelings. I feel like picking apart related websites, scrutinizing post times and examining meta tags is somehow beside the point. If someone has manufactured this entire story for their own gain, shame on them. But looking past that to the good that has been generated would almost cancel out the harm. Reflecting on how this has made a huge "community" pull together and applying that energy to other causes, even on an individual basis, could make the "truth" beside the point.

Many have argued that the truth must be known, if only so people know their good will was well and truly spent. No good will is wasted. Rejoice in the fact that we were able to feel for someone few of us knew personally, and be proud of ourselves for giving and expecting nothing in return. And finally, as tsidel said, "hug those we know in RL". Amen to that.
posted by jennaratrix at 11:18 AM on May 19, 2001

i agree with you jenna. i think the point to focus on is the intentions of the wellwishers, regardless of the authenticity of the story or not. however, i am disturbed by the idea that people may have spent money buying presents or purchasing items via cafepress for what may turn out to be an actor. i think that would be fraud, and i won't blame those skeptics (referred to as "cynics" by some because they don't believe all that they read on faith) who continue to seek out the truth.
posted by moz at 11:36 AM on May 19, 2001

Sidestepping the specific case-at-hand, I feel more comfortable knowing that our online peers are assertive enough to debate this openly. It's a better alternative to blindly believing or anonymously spreading rumours behind others' backs.
posted by kv at 11:48 AM on May 19, 2001

i, for one, am just amazed at how media continues to influence and infiltrate all aspects of our existence.

(shutting down my computer for a big fat dose of RL today...)
posted by webchick at 12:28 PM on May 19, 2001

Steven--I saw that same entry that Eric was referring to. It was genuine. I saw it shortly after it was made.

RaysMG: I disagree with your point that it is not possible to greive for a person you didn't know. I never knew Kaycee in real life, but I still loved her. Like I wrote earlier ( in an earlier Metafilter entry) her entries have really encouraged me. If she is real (which I really believe she is), then the world has lost a wonderful young lady. So it is possible to mourn for someone you have never met.

Case in point: A few months ago, the Oklahoma State basketball team suffered a huge loss when one of their planes crashed, killing all on board. One of those killed was a locally well-known sportscaster. I witnessed personally many people (myself included) mourning for a man they never met in person. Is that loss worse than that of his family? No. They have lost far more than we did. However, we did lose someone we liked and respected, even though we have never met the guy, and we mourned. Those feelings are real, and you can't deny them. Believe me. I have felt them. And I feel them now with Kaycee. Any time someone makes a positive impact in your life, you feel loss when they are taken away. So, with all due respect, RaysMG, I must disagree with your viewpoint.

Hasta luego,
Redgie
posted by Redgie at 12:38 PM on May 19, 2001

It is impossible to prove a negative, and therefore impossible to prove that Kaycee never existed. However, it should be simple enough for bwg or Kaycee's (supposed) mother to prove that she did... not that I expect either of them to do it, because they can't.

In fact, bwg's reaction to this discussion, his anger, says a great deal about this whole situation. Either he is no longer sure himself, or he was in on the hoax.

It seems that Kaycee was a beautiful fiction -- perhaps well-intentioned -- perhaps not, but a fiction nonetheless.
posted by johnnydark at 1:11 PM on May 19, 2001

I'd have to disagree with you, johnnydark. The anger is warranted, and bwg and/or Debbie don't have to prove anything. It's persumptious to believe that they do. Wouldn't you be angry (and rightfully so), if someone was doubting the existence of a person you love? To use bwg's anger as a checkmark in the hoax column holds little validity.
posted by Zosia Blue at 1:27 PM on May 19, 2001

This is a story I hate to even comment on. Everyone wants to believe a girl like this exists, there is no question of that. But I came across something that to me, questions all of this.
I went and did a whois domain search on
www.kayceenicole.com (which goes straight to the living colours blog)
and it came back with this info:
Domain name: kayceenicole.com

Registrant:

audra lea ([e-mail])

1903-cgrantave
jonesboro, ar 72404
US


Administrative:
Network Commerce Inc.
DomainZero.com Administrator ([e-mail])
877.775.1582
FAX: [phone]
5000 Business Center Drive
Savannah, GA 31405
US


Billing:
Network Commerce Inc.
DomainZero.com Administrator ([e-mail])
877.775.1582
FAX: [phone]
5000 Business Center Drive
Savannah, GA 31405
US


Technical:
Network Commerce Inc.
DomainZero.com Administrator ([e-mail])
877.775.1582
FAX: [phone]
5000 Business Center Drive
Savannah, GA 31405
US

The important thing was to me, that Audra Lea has her own website
www.audralea.com

Take a look.
posted by justagirl at 1:31 PM on May 19, 2001

bargle, I hope I don't come across as though I'm looking for conspiracy for conspiracy's sake. I'll be the first to admit that posting the CafePress thing without looking at the base prices first was a stupid thing to do, but I had no malicious intent.

I know. I did not mean to imply that you were being malicious, or that anyone else was.
posted by bargle at 1:36 PM on May 19, 2001

Forgetting for a moment the issue here, the fact that people are willing to blithely ignore "truth" because they were emotionally involved in the story is really sick. Have we so isolated ourselves in the electronic that the real world, where people live and die is irrelevant as long as we had an emotional investment? Maybe it's time to turn off this computer. Come on people, get real.
posted by zebra_monkey at 1:45 PM on May 19, 2001

the network solutions record doesn't prove anything. audra lee might have purchased the domain as a gift for kaycee nicole.
posted by heather at 1:48 PM on May 19, 2001

sorry, network solutions should read domain registration. my bad.
posted by heather at 1:49 PM on May 19, 2001

Compare these pictures of Audra Lee to this picture of Kaycee Nicole. I don't know, but the third one could well be a younger picture of the same person.
posted by Steven Den Beste at 2:03 PM on May 19, 2001

Let me first say that I'm 99.9% sure this is not a hoax at all (like I'm 99.9% sure that gravity pulls things down towards earth).

But what's sad about all this, whether this is fact or fiction, is that everyone is going to question this until they see an official obit of some sort, identifying her and matching up with all the stories.

It's sad because the extent to which the family went to ensure privacy for themselves and anonymity for everyone involved shows that they value their privacy, that they protected her identity, and that they did a great job at it (cynics would say this is why it must all be false). Could you imagine if the blog continued as-is, but said somewhere "I'm Jane Doe, and I'm at the First Foo Hospital, at 123 main street, anytown, USA."

No matter how many times she said "don't send me gifts or flowers or money, help a charity instead" her room would be filled with flowers, gifts, checks, etc. It might cheapen the whole thing and make her feel bad, and others might say it was a blatant attempt to tug heart strings for loot. To avoid any of that by remaining anonymous was brilliant.

The naysayer claims are very flimsy, there's a good explanation for all of it. The claims that she made references to her wishlist seem like hogwash to me. I've been reading her site off and on since it started, probably once every couple weeks, each time skimming old entries. I don't recall seeing anything about wishlists or paypal.

Anyway, I know many here won't be satisfied until they see proof, and in order for that to happen, all anonymity and privacy has to be revealed.

If that does happen, and it comes out this all really happened, I think we're all going to feel terrible. Terrible that we let some cynical side of us take over and we acted like sharks looking for drops of blood in the water. If it doesn't happen and this turns out to be some sort of hoax, we'll all loose a little faith in others.

It's looking like a lose-lose situation.
posted by mathowie at 2:07 PM on May 19, 2001

redgie: Not much you said contradicted me. I think I was pretty much saying it's a matter of degree. Do you get upset while watching a movie? Those emotions can be valid and if you think I meant that, you're way too into the concept of authenticity, which is rampant these days, for gosh knows what reason.

Nevertheless, the thing about the mourners for the Oklahoma State team? Who's to say that some of the folks just had a deep emotional connection more with the school? Fans of the team? Maybe, at worst, they were just following the crowd? You don't have any earthly idea, do you? No, which can be the bad part. The Di thing I pointed to, because it's been fairly well documented that if some folks in Britain weren't into the grieving thing enough, they were harassed. But they didn't know her, so who cares?

In any case, grieving for someone who was very close to you, or a family member, is generally about 20 times more complicated than "grieving" for someone you've never met, much less ever seen. It's a whole range of emotions, which for some of us get so intense they force us to power down, to just shut it all off.

Ultimately, of course, you can't know with 100 percent certainty if people are faking grief for a relative, spouse or close friend either. You can generally take it on faith, though. Count me in with Bette Davis. I abhor cheap sentiment, even coming from myself. (And I have a strong tendency to get that way.)
posted by raysmj at 2:11 PM on May 19, 2001

What this entire episode illuminates in bold, garish colors is the current addiction to public grieving. Reading over the first Kaycee thread, I was repulsed by the outright viciousness of the Kaycee supporters toward the Kaycee non-supporters - arguments which read, in short, if you don't feel and grieve for her the same way we do, you are heartless and cruel. What a loathesome thing to say, and completely contradictory to their point, I might add (for sensitive people, it was the pinnacle of cruelty).

There exists some sort of 'more grieved than thou' movement in America, certainly - shrines filled with flowers and stuffed animals and letters and signs sprout up within hours at scenes of violence and tragedy. Private contemplative grieving has been, it would seem, demoted in favor of public tears and confessions of love for the deceased - none of which, it must be noted, has anything at all to do with the deceased, but rather exists to heighten the awareness that the so called agrieved is a very caring and sensitive person - the sort who would not go out and kick puppies.

I, too, had never heard of Kaycee until the earlier 'she's dead' post was made. A tour through her site and that of Debbie made it abundantly clear that these were not real people. I have no idea why anyone would take the time and resources to set up a site like this, but there is more than enough evidence in the history of the Internet and Web of fake identities and sites and deaths to support the strong possibility that Kaycee is another in a long line of hoaxes.

Clearly, no one looks forward to learning they were duped, but to claim that you are, all things considered, better off for having been duped by so cheerful a non-existent person seems to me to be the height of naivete.

I also must shout a hearty 'Amen!' toward Kristin and her points.
posted by gsh at 2:21 PM on May 19, 2001 [1 favorite]

This speculation is distasteful, but it matters if Kaycee is a hoax, because that kind of thing makes people less likely to open their hearts and wallets when a real person is in dire need of help.
posted by rcade at 2:27 PM on May 19, 2001

(I have no opinion on the veracity of the web log in question.)

We should not be condoning anyone’s motives for wanting to know whether the KayCee web log was real. The burden of proof on the family (if they do exist) is slight, they can do so without adversly effecting their privacy.

Matt, I agree with you totally in your post except for this: “If ... this turns out to be some sort of hoax, we'll all loose a little faith in others.”

If it is a hoax, I’ll keep the faith lies are eventually unmasked and value authenticity that much more.

Rcade: that kind of thing makes people less likely to open their hearts and wallets when a real person is in dire need of help.

No way, real people don’t have the same privacy issues as fake ones.

Zosia Blue: Wouldn't you be angry ... if someone was doubting the existence of a person you love?

I’m fairly certain I can proove my existence beyond a shadow of a doubt, let alone a loved one’s death.

In other words, I’m with zebra_monkey (and gsh and kristin). “the fact that people are willing to blithely ignore "truth" because they were emotionally involved in the story is really sick.” Truth matters. Otherwise, I know a dragon named Puff that can console you.
posted by capt.crackpipe at 2:45 PM on May 19, 2001

I treat everything on the net as possible fiction, and I don't allow myself to get emotionally involved in anything I know soley by the net.

So as I said before, it does NOT matter to me. I wasn't speaking for everyone.

And if people stop opening their hearts and wallets for real people in need of help because of this (regardless if it's true or not) then they were living in a make-believe world anyway.
posted by justgary at 2:48 PM on May 19, 2001

Maybe it's a Southern thing, but I've frequently seen glass jars placed in stores to collect money for sick kids, families that lost their home in a fire, and the like. My point about sick-kid hoaxes is that they make you much less likely to pitch in when you're asked to help someone you don't know, just as the "policeman's fund" telemarketing scams make it harder for legitimate charities.
posted by rcade at 2:54 PM on May 19, 2001

We live in a world where most of us aren't connected to real people anymore, just something distant and a little empty called "community". When people are so desperate to feel a part of something that confers meaning, they can easily be taken advantage of (both emotionally and politically, although that's another conversation).
posted by zebra_monkey at 3:10 PM on May 19, 2001

Not intended to be funny:

Life is like a movie:

"You must find out by yourself... "
"If you take the blue pill, you wake up and remember nothing. "
"If you take the red pill, we follow Alice into Wonderland - and I show you how deep the rabbithole goes."

Kaffee: "I want the truth!"
Jessep: "You can't handle the truth!"
posted by nonharmful at 3:11 PM on May 19, 2001

Ray: Yes, I do have an earthly idea. I can't speak for the other "mourners", however, I can speak for myself. Yes, my friend, I really did grieve. And no, I wasn't following the crowd, and no, I didn't have any involvement with OSU (I'm actually more of an OU fan.) But I did grieve. That plane crash was a huge blow to all of us. Now, I am not questioning the possibility that some could have been "following the crowd," but I think the vast majority really felt these things.

OK, enough soapboxing on my part.

Hasta luego,
Redgie
posted by Redgie at 3:17 PM on May 19, 2001

What really bothers me about this is BWG's reaction -- I'm not saying it's unwarrented, but it lends this whole affair a hostile spirit I don't think anyone intended. I was fairly convinced that KayCee was a hoax -- now I'm not so much, and I'm not interested in investigating. However, I'd be the first one to offer my apologies if I found out to the contrary, and I never meant anything against the KayCee's spirit by it.

Uninvolved people like me are calling it like they see it, and that's the feeling I get from the article that acrid linked to up at the top of the comments. They obviously have nothing against KayCee, Debbie, or BWG, or against anyone -- they're just pointing out what appears to them to be a hoax. They're not any more despicable, uncaring, or cruel than people who delete "Send this chain letter and Bill Gates will give a penny to Johnny Polio" out of hand. The character trait that is making people suspicious is caution, not mean-spiritedness.

What I'm saying is: if we were somehow convinced that KayCee truly existed (it would certainly be easy to do), I can't think of a person involved who wouldn't offer a heartfelt apology to Debbie and BWG and a word of prayer to KayCee's spirit.
posted by tweebiscuit at 3:28 PM on May 19, 2001

Let me just add one more thing.

I hope from the bottom of my heart that people don't lose faith in others because of hoaxes. It is true that there are people out there that make stuff like that up all the time. However, I honestly feel that Kaycee is genuine, and that those websites are real. Even if it turns out that this was fake, (which I SERIOUSLY doubt it was), I will never regret showing my sympathy, my feelings, etc. toward the matter. If I am PROVEN (beyond a doubt) wrong, I will be the first to admit it. However, I will NEVER regret having human feelings of empathy and faith.

Hasta luego,
Redgie
posted by Redgie at 3:29 PM on May 19, 2001

A move that will just add to the conspiracy theories: The questionable photo mentioned by disarray in this post has been removed, as has the HTML link to the photo itself on her old home page.
posted by aaron at 3:29 PM on May 19, 2001

Amazing, nonharmful. I was just going to say something along the same lines, from the same movie.

"No. I don't believe it. It's not possible."
"I didn't say it would be easy, Neo. I just said it would be the truth."

While I've never heard of KayCee's weblog before now, had I a vested interest, I'd rather know the truth than carry on with life in a cloud of naivete.

Of course, this means I'm now condemned to Hell by Mr. Vanderwoning, the last bastion of love on Metafilter.
posted by Danelope at 3:35 PM on May 19, 2001

Danelope -- please, even I don't think that was called for. Name-calling is exactly what is not needed right now.
posted by tweebiscuit at 3:53 PM on May 19, 2001

I post with some hesitancy here. I've had a passing acquaintene with Kaycee's site over some time, but never really much more.

What's odd to me is:
1. If kayceenicole.com points to her site, why was that URL never used to identify it? (I didn't know there was a domain name associated with that site until reading through all this.
2. Why is there no apparent mention of Kaycee on AudraLea's site and vice-versa? In fact, there is very little in common content wise or geography wise connecting the two sites in any way (save for some common links to the same places).
3. The whois information for both domains is extremely odd IMO.

Until 2 hours ago the concept of a hoax would never have occured to me. Now I'm just baffled.
posted by faith at 3:57 PM on May 19, 2001

Well, I do have an opinion regarding the veracity of the statements, but it has more to do with writer's intuition than any actual facts, so it's not altogether valid.

However, I do want to address the notion that it doesn't matter whether Kaycee Nicole was real or not.

The World Wide Web demands a certain degree of honesty from its users. Being that there is no way to authenticate the actual identity of anyone here - you have no way of knowing anything about me until I reveal it to you - every act of community, every web page put up, every comment in a guestbook implies good faith. This realm depends on trust.

Now, if someone has perpetrated a hoax - and it is possible that someone has maintained this site for so long without making any major mistakes (once you have your talking points, you don't have to divert from the script all that much) - they have played off the emotional and psychic energy of hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who implicitly believed that what was being written was authentic and who were engaged in her "struggle" on some level. They have, in other words, abused the trust and faith that people had.

Such a thing would be beyond despicable. 99% of the reason people go online in the first place is to escape the mundane backstabbing and bullshit the real world provides. If we can't trust that people aren't being up front here, then what's the point of any endeavor online? If we can't have faith that the stories purported to be true are true, why bother telling any stories at all?

So if this is a hoax, the perpetrator should die alone and unloved.

Now to completely flip: it's entirely possible that Kaycee's blog was 100% real, that she did in fact battle leukemia and die of an aneurysm, and that what we are seeing now is a counterreaction to avoid dealing with the collective grief that her death evoked. In other words, to avoid dealing with the truth, deny it ever happened. Maybe. I dunno.

Two other notes:

- I've never met Halcyon at all, but from his numerous online presences, I can discern no possible motive why he would perpetrate something like this. If it is a hoax, I'm pretty sure that Halcyon got taken in like everyone else.

- For the hoax-seekers: a neat bit of circumstantial evidence. Audra Lea's links page has banners for both Cocky Bastard and Prehensile Tales.
posted by solistrato at 4:05 PM on May 19, 2001

Now I'm totally roped in.

This strikes me as odd:

out of respect for the family, i will not be going into detail about the circumstances of kaycee's passing. i can tell you it was not the cancer. she had beaten it, as we knew she would. and while her liver was slowly giving out, that was not the cause.

there was a ruptured vein, and nothing could be done to stop it. kaycee did not suffer. it was her wish to go quickly when the time came. debbie was with her throughout, as she always has been.

So he's not going into detail about the death, and then he goes into detail? Hmm. And how is someone there "throughout" an aneurysm?

Okay, now I'm just looking for things. I'll stop.
posted by solistrato at 4:14 PM on May 19, 2001

I went to the www.audralea.com site.It had intersesting links.It also stated that this person has 902855 screennames.The properties was copyrighted.Do I find any of this suspenseful.Sure I do. I also "believe what I feel"when someone or something is uplifting to me.I do not think that this was a hoax.Call me gullible if you will but, I would say that some people have the mentallity to pull this off.The ones in question here ...NO...I don't believe that they would have to stoop to those things.If I am wrong so be it (it wouldn't be the 1st,2nd,or 3rd time).I am not that investigative by nature.This is a big deal (the whole topic of fact and fiction) and trustworth on the web.Let us just say that it is something that we will have to be aware of forever.Is this the right person to call out...No...I don't belive so ,because in actuality there is people hurting over Kaycees death.Just because these people put their stories and lives out here on the line is no excuse to pick them apart.For those who do make up stories and present themselves as something they are not it is still revealing an insight of themselves whether they realize it or not.I say give credit where credit is do and as the sun shined on me today I felt the goodness that came from this beautiful person.The profit scamming thing is silly to because it also has the same effect.If I give something or buy something because I am moved to do so then that makes me feel better and proves nothing more then I was doing it from my heart.And anyone who has worried about that has probaly not spent more than a t-shirt cost.You will be repaid for that many times more if your heart was there.
posted by Skye at 4:19 PM on May 19, 2001

Such a thing would be beyond despicable. 99% of the reason people go online in the first place is to escape the mundane backstabbing and bullshit the real world provides.

Really? I guess I'm in the minority then. I go into the real world to escape the mundane bullshit found on the internet.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective...
posted by justgary at 4:20 PM on May 19, 2001 [2 favorites]

99% of the reason people go online in the first place is to escape the mundane backstabbing and bullshit the real world provides.

Actually, my problem with most online communities are the people who enjoy backstabbing and bullshit. Luckily, Metafilter has one of the best signal-to-noise ratios I've yet seen -- this thread stands as an incredible testament to that. Maybe I don't need to join the WELL after all...
posted by tweebiscuit at 4:25 PM on May 19, 2001

I exchanged IMs with Kaycee a few times on collegeclub.com a long while back. Up until now I had no reason to suspect she was anything but a real person, or would I have thought anything out of the ordinary.

But I sign onto CollegeClub.com the supposed day
of her death, and it says KuteBabe (her nick) was logged on. And everyday since her death. C'mon, even given the benefit of the doubt, I find it very difficult to believe that her family's first order of business is to go get her email each day after such a horrible tragedy in their life.

And if Audra Lea's gift to Kaycee was her own domain, then why was it never mentioned in either of their sites, or for that matter why was it never even used?

Something is up and regardless if people want to staunchly defend or point fingers.
posted by SethSD129 at 4:31 PM on May 19, 2001

this is deplorable. it's making me sick to my stomach
Amen BWG.

My God... this thread is a convention of ghouls.

From where I'm sitting, I can't prove any of you exist. None of you can prove I exist.

And it's all based on this?
On 5/16/01 at 2.25 BWG announced Kaycee's death in his blog.
On 5/16/01 at 4.01, Debbie announced Kaycee's death in Kaycee's blog
On 5/16/01 at 4.36, Debbie announced Kaycee's death in her own blog


Well, duh! BWG did all that. He designed their sites, and maintained them. After losing Kaycee... I'm sure maintaining a stupid website was the furthest thing from Debbie's mind.

He's done his damndest to make sure the world knew of this young girl and her mom and the living hell they went through.

BWG says she existed. Halcyon says she existed.
That's good enough for me.
posted by EricBrooksDotCom at 4:31 PM on May 19, 2001

I considered Kaycee a friend. I chatted online with her a few times. I sent her care packages.

I can't prove that I was actually chatting with Kaycee, but I did save a few transcripts and she was adamant about not wanting gifts or money, both on her site and in chat.

She sent me and my daughter a wonderful care package.

Could this have been an elaborate hoax (one that actually cost the perpetrators money)? Yes, it could have. Can I prove or disprove it? No. Was it? I don't care.

Does god exist? I don't know. I can't prove or disprove his existence. And frankly I don't care about that either. Do I exist? Am I telling the truth? After all, I use a hotmail account for my profile...

What would you people accept as proof?

I am not mourning Kaycee's passing. I am too busy being grateful for the gift her presence was.

ps: I asked BWG last year about buying a domain for Kaycee- he told me someone already had.
posted by amber_eden at 4:48 PM on May 19, 2001

If kayceenicole.com points to her site, why was that URL never used to identify it?

The index page points to http://vanderwoning.com/living/blog.html in frames (read the source code).

No major mystery there. If Audra Lee had anything to do with Living Colours, she would have the authority to have the DNS point straight to the site instead.

(Can somebody show me the quickest way out of this ridiculous thread???)
posted by EricBrooksDotCom at 4:50 PM on May 19, 2001

Halycon has links on many other webpages.Is it possible that he created all of these people too.(c'mon people)The best form of advertisement is word of mouth and here on the web it is links.I have never spoken with him but know enough to believe that he is open and aspiring enough to not need to lie.His open policy is more of a standing of faith on this worldwideweb than most are willing to divuldge.Was he taking in to...my thoughts are...no...if he talked with Kaycee then I believe that.If his girlfriend says the same then I find it a solid fact.Debbie please do not be discouraged by any of this.You have shown humanity in its most highs and lows gracefully.If something comes out of this that wasn't your intention I hope you can find the positive in that also.
posted by Skye at 4:56 PM on May 19, 2001

Amen, Aaron.

Hasta luego,
Redgie
posted by Redgie at 4:56 PM on May 19, 2001

Her ghost still haunts collegeclub.com, apparently.
posted by gsh at 4:57 PM on May 19, 2001

I personally am far more fascinated by the detective work and the strange emotion vs. intellect debate going on in this thread than about whether she existed or not; I never paid any attention to the whole Kaycee thing at all except when it was brought up here, so I have no emotional investment in her actual existence or the lack thereof. But I will say this: When non-MeFites start coming over here and creating accounts for the sole purpose of posting pro-Kaycee messages in this thread, it looks mighty suspicious.
posted by aaron at 4:58 PM on May 19, 2001

(Can somebody show me the quickest way out of this ridiculous thread???) posted by EricBrooksDotCom

Yeah Brooks, stick your head back up your ass where it usually is.
posted by faith at 5:02 PM on May 19, 2001

I don't think that was necessary.
posted by aaron at 5:04 PM on May 19, 2001

What's the matter Faith... feel stupid that you didn't know you were looking at a framed page?

DUH!
posted by EricBrooksDotCom at 5:19 PM on May 19, 2001

Play nice, kids!
posted by tranquileye at 5:25 PM on May 19, 2001

Disclaimer: I am one of those folks who was emotionally involved in Kaycee's life. I believe (for my own professional and personal reasons) that she was a real person.

I have worked in ER and critical care for a long time, and have an ER/critical care nurse's highly suspicious nature and and an intensely sensitive BS detector. I don't think I can be fooled very easily over a long period of time. Early in my online relationship with her I was as skeptical as many of the doubters here. In a series of email and IM exchanges with her, I found her relating details that convinced me that she was exactly who she said she was- a young lady with leukemia, undergoing BMT.

I have had phone conversations with Debbie. I found them also to be convincing; her manner of speech and thought processes were those of a mother of a critically ill young adult.

I gave Kaycee my word that I would not speak of the details of her illness that she related to me. That is a promise I intend to keep. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it (and I know that won't satisfy anybody).



So believe or don't believe, investigate or accept at face value, question or lurk quietly- I really don't care what you do. The facts speak to me very clearly.

Kaycee was here. Now she is not. And I miss her very much.

BTW, the "experts" that have been speaking here are incorrect on a lot of points. Burial/cremation/embalming/autopsy details vary widely across the nation, in accordance with state and local law. What the law and custom is in your part of the country doesn't necessarily reflect what went on around Kaycee's death.
posted by Alwin at 5:29 PM on May 19, 2001

Fascinating.

A wad of cyber-entities debating the existence of another cyber-entity. A gathering of ephemeral avatars, most of whom remain unattributable to an avatar-master, trying to decide whether a deceased avatar's master followed it into the netherworld.

We are all minor contributors to a vast cyber-fiction, every time we post. All of this is separate from physical reality - whatever that is.

I'm watching a bunch of made-up people trying to decide if another made-up person's maker-upper is dead. The levels of unreality are increasing exponentially.

Outer Limits material.

Fascinating.
posted by Opus Dark at 5:39 PM on May 19, 2001 [2 favorites]

I know what I was looking at Brooks. You misunderstood my original point, and there's no sense trying to explain it to the equivalent of a wall.
posted by faith at 5:46 PM on May 19, 2001

alwin - thank you very much for chiming in here with a bit of professional input; I am aghast at the nature of this thread - and am very depressed at the amount of venom flying about. What would it take to convince you people?
posted by crankyrobot at 5:49 PM on May 19, 2001

Personally, I've come to the decision that KayCee probably existed -- primarily on the word of Halcyon and BWG. I still think, however, that those suspicious weren't wrong to be so. See above.

And now I've had enough with this thread. KayCee, I hope you're happy where you are -- we mean no disrespect.
posted by tweebiscuit at 5:52 PM on May 19, 2001

Alwin,

I don't know if I was one of the "experts" you were referring to. I was simply observing that it was possible to have a memorial service without having the body present. I was saying this because someone had observed the short amount of time it took to have "autopsy, embalming, cremation, and memorial service." BWG had said on his site that the memorial service had taken place, and that Kaycee would be cremated according to her wishes (not necessarily that it had already taken place.) He did not say anything about an autopsy (although I assume one took place or was in the process of taking place.)

I wasn't saying that this was what took place, I was just saying that it was POSSIBLE that this took place.

Sorry if I am making little sense.

Hasta luego,
Redgie
posted by Redgie at 6:03 PM on May 19, 2001

What would it take to convince you people?

A newspaper death notice, obituary or any other evidence Kaycee existed outside of weblogs and the webloggers she corresponded with by phone, e-mail, and mail to her anonymous P.O. box.

At least that's what would convince me. So far, I've come up with bupkiss.
posted by rcade at 6:09 PM on May 19, 2001

On an extremely off-topic sidenote, I don't think I've ever seen "bupkiss" spelled out before. It's nice to know how to spell it now :).
posted by Zosia Blue at 6:14 PM on May 19, 2001

Well, this is certainly interesting. I like a good mystery as much as anyone. I guess it is a symptom of the times we live in that we are obsessed with the truth because so little can be proven, and we are lied to so often. Remember the poster in Fox Mulder's office on the X-Files?

I WANT TO BELIEVE

I want to believe that there was a Kaycee. Not because I had some connection to her, but because if she is a fiction then someone is being very dishonest and emotionally manipulative at a level which is disturbing. As someone said, it would be "Munchausen-by-email-proxy."

Time for Ockham's Razor, then: "the mind should not multiply things without necessity." We should look at the facts and come up with the least complex theory. So, a few things:

- Kayceenicole.com is registered by Audra Lea, a woman around the same age as Kaycee who looks something like her. Perhaps Audra purchased the domain as a gift for Kaycee, yet nowhere on either of their pages are there links or a mention of the purchase. Audra Lea's links page does have banners for both Cocky Bastard and Prehensile Tales, however.

- On her page, Audra says: "My last name isn't Lea, it is my middle." In his post, an upset BWG writes: "has it ever occurred to anyone that kaycee nicole was her first and middle name?"

- No one has come forward and said that they ever met Kaycee or her mother in person, though a few people say they have spoken to both of them on the telephone.

- There is no documentary evidence whatsoever that Kaycee existed, such as an obit, newspaper story, verified street address, or high school yearbook.

- There are few photos of Kaycee, and her "basketball" image was taken down from Kaycee's old site after it was mentioned here.

- A never-before-seen MeFi user named amber_eden appeared to comment on the thread and said she chatted with Kaycee a few times and received "a wonderful care package" from her.

- Kutebabe still logs into collegeclub.com.

Obviously, I don't know the truth of this matter; all I suggest is that you ask yourself, What is the least complex explanation for each of these things? What is the least complex explanation for all of these things, taken together?
posted by tranquileye at 6:34 PM on May 19, 2001

didn't halcyon create us all?
posted by judith at 6:41 PM on May 19, 2001

strange that this of all things is my first metafilter post. i'm new to metafilter. i count john styn as a dear (IRL) friend. i have problems believing that it would be possible for him to make something like this up. but that a random person with bipolar disorder could... or pursue it... maybe i could see that.

i don't know. i didn't know about kaycee at all, color me silly for being a blogger who doesn't read enough other blogs.


but i can't help but think about the implications of this in any case. and i had to ponder the following:


The World Wide Web demands a certain degree of honesty from its users. Being that there is no way to authenticate the actual identity of anyone here - you have no way of knowing anything about me until I reveal it to you - every act of community, every web page put up, every comment in a guestbook implies good faith. This realm depends on trust.


no, a community like the well, in which users have actual, real names that can be traced, that's what demands a certain degree of honesty. in a world where i get continuously spammed, in a world where everybody these days has a web page, i don't believe that there is a higher truth. and i would consider it possible (being a latecomer to all of this) for someone to create a new persona, a new personality, and a hoax.
posted by maximolly at 6:42 PM on May 19, 2001

Oh good grief. Look at this profile :
http://www.metafilter.com/user.mefi/892
then at my current profile. The original one got hosed a long time ago. I am not a mystery- I just don't have anything to say in this space very often. Didn't bother to look at the weblog either, or this wouldn't need to be clarified. Still have doubts? Send me an email and we'll talk.
posted by amber_eden at 6:44 PM on May 19, 2001

The basketball picture, for future reference.
posted by capt.crackpipe at 6:51 PM on May 19, 2001

I've spoken with Kaycee (and her younger sister) on the phone several times and I've exchanged countless e-mail messages. I've received packages with hand written notes and sent packages to thank her for being an amazing person. She sent many of us in the CollegeClub office little framed pictures of her and thoughtful gifts, over one year ago. What does that mean? Not sure... all I know is that she helped me see some wonderful aspects of my life. And that makes me glad to have interacted with her.

For the record, her Mom logs into her CollegeClub account (and sent a message to several of us on CollegeClub) to answer questions, etc. I've met Audra Lea in person and she's a wonderful woman - who, by the way, looks nothing like the pictures of Kaycee.

I don't know the answer and I don't plan on changing anyone's mind - I just felt the need to say that my interactions remain a positive experience.
posted by kaya at 6:55 PM on May 19, 2001

(I’ll be taking that photo down in a few days when this thing blows over. I still have no opinion either way, but I know I don’t that photo.)
posted by capt.crackpipe at 7:06 PM on May 19, 2001

Some people have used my experiences with Kaycee as evidence in the ”proof she’s real” column.

But before anyone bases their conclusions on what I’ve written, I feel it is important to reveal that I, too, have doubts. I just wrote about my feelings on the subject. I'm embarassed, ashamed, and confused.

I am in a bad place right now. In one case, a dear friend is dead. In the other, I have been swimming in deceit.

I would hope that, above it all, we remember to respect one another and to continue to open our hearts. Even to people who don’t deserve it. Even to people that may be less than honest with us. Yes, we will be burned occasionally. But the cost of keeping our hearts closed is FAR greater.

Note: Kaya (above) is my brother.
posted by halcyon at 7:06 PM on May 19, 2001

(but, I know I don’t own that photo.)

Sorry for the double.
posted by capt.crackpipe at 7:11 PM on May 19, 2001

weird.

last october

today

It's not evidence one way or another, it's just spooky there were similar concerns before.
posted by mathowie at 7:28 PM on May 19, 2001

amber_eden, I saw that your account was brand new and, breaking my own rule, made an assumption. I'm sorry for doubting your existance. (That was a weird thing to type).
posted by tranquileye at 7:40 PM on May 19, 2001

don't any of you have anything better to do then this. Hoax or not people are greiving. Leave them be.
posted by freethinker1 at 7:40 PM on May 19, 2001

matt,
weird is right.

And so very sad,
one way
or the other.
posted by tranquileye at 7:46 PM on May 19, 2001

don't any of you have anything better to do then this. Hoax or not people are greiving. Leave them be.

A statement trying to put an end to this thread from someone named 'freethinker' is kind of strange:) I guess you can think it, just don't say it.

I fail to sympathize with people who say this thread is awful, or that we are awful for simply talking about the situation. This is an open forum talking about someone that put themselves in the public eye. It doesn't hurt anyone, and it shouldn't have any affect on anyone who is 'grieving'.

If you are sure Kaycee existed, and are offended by this thread, don't read it.

If you think she did exist, and are afraid the truth (if there is one) will be revealed, don't read it.

Don't like a song? Turn the station. Don't like a movie? Don't go see it.

This thread is neither good nor bad. It simply is...
posted by justgary at 7:56 PM on May 19, 2001

The answer is clearly Yes maybe this person did not exist.That makes me feel more awful then the fact that she could have.
posted by Skye at 7:59 PM on May 19, 2001

This is an open forum talking about someone that put themselves in the public eye.

I think this is fundamentally the truest thing someone has said about any of this. For good or for bad, this is what you get when you put yourself out there in a public space. Weblogs and the internet are all about democratic publishing, breaking down barriers between people. Well here it is and it's stinky and loud and gratuitous.
posted by zebra_monkey at 8:01 PM on May 19, 2001

I was going to keep my opinions out of this forum but this is getting way too ridiculous. I think some people are putting too much stock in the power of the internet. Most of rural America is not online. This I know for a fact because I live here - right in the heart of Podunk. Our newspaper isn't online. The nearest paper with an online presence is 70 miles away and get this... they don't publish our local obituaries. I could drop dead in the next five minutes and I guarantee you that you wouldn't be able to drag up concrete proof of my death anywhere on the internet. As for a mother being with her child throughout an aneurysm, one of my acquaintances was found in the floor just two days ago. Aneurysm. Her entire immediate family has been by her side since with the exception of the surgery time. I think it's fair to say they've been with her throughout as I'm sure Kaycee's mom was with her. Yes, I believe there was a Kaycee. I'm not going to offer up my proof to the masses because ya know what, it doesn't matter. She was real to me and I'm the only one whose curiosity I must satisfy.

If there is anything fascinating here at all it's the psychology behind what motivates some folks to split hairs even if it means causing additional pain to others. I have been trying all day to make sense of this and I can't. I don't understand what anyone has to gain from this. Even if someone here manages to prove Kaycee was a hoax, you've gained nothing positive so I say again.. the fascinating and disturbing thing is what causes some people to disregard anything positive and search only for negatives? Personally I think this world is negative enough. Not only will I continue to look for the positive, I will firmly embrace it when I find it. Hoax or no hoax.
posted by justlisa at 8:39 PM on May 19, 2001