Unsquare dances and eleven-to-the-bar boogies

January 19, 2009 5:27 PM

Progressive rock was kicked off American radio circa 1985 (not so much fired as pressured into resigning); today, there's virtually nothing on mainstream radio in an odd meter (5/4, 7/8, etc.). At Odd Time Obsessed, though, everything is.

The playlist (not exhaustive) includes a column listing which odd meters are found in the songs; there's also a blog, reviews, and interviews.

[soapbox] As a side note, I think we Americans ought to re-embrace this form of music. We like to think of ourselves as pioneering, progressive, and innovative; why not celebrate the inauguration with music to match? After all, Independence Day is on 7/4. Kansas' "Song for America" includes passages in 5/4 and 9/8. And Barack Obama hasn't come out publicly in favor of prog rock, but we can all take a hint from "Yes we can".

posted by kurumi (73 comments total)

I hadn't thought that odd metering is the way to define progressive rock.
posted by mert at 5:32 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

Progressive rock was kicked off American radio circa 1985

I think this song from the Gizmos says it all. and explains why well.
posted by jonmc at 5:33 PM on January 19

I only like my songs in 1/1.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:36 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

What, they don't play Tool on the radio?

(Doesn't listen to the radio.)
posted by Foosnark at 5:39 PM on January 19

You guys don't have Tool down there?
posted by Jairus at 5:39 PM on January 19

DAMN YOU FOOSNARK
posted by Jairus at 5:39 PM on January 19

Very interesting. I was thinking this might be your first link, but I guess that's too obvious. (Plus, I have no idea if anything from that album ever played on the radio!)
posted by chihiro at 5:40 PM on January 19

Was 1985 when it was kicked off, or just when one of the longer pieces on Iron Yes Crimson Floyd's classic 1976 album Lost Timeless Children finished its first playing on commercial radio, having started in late 1979?
posted by sien at 5:40 PM on January 19 [11 favorites]

I hadn't thought that odd metering is the way to define progressive rock.

Oh, it definitely is, if by "odd" you mean "extremely" and by "metering" you mean "farking long".
posted by DU at 5:44 PM on January 19 [3 favorites]

If you like odd meters, you might dig this local Seattle band called Soundgarden.
posted by Nahum Tate at 5:51 PM on January 19 [3 favorites]

It's just a labeling problem. The late 80's was when "Progressive rock" was renamed Math rock. It's still around.
posted by rusty at 5:53 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

It's still around.

Maybe it'll make punk rock neccessary all over again.
posted by jonmc at 5:56 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

Is there such a thing as 1/1 or 1/2, and do any mainstream examples exist? I thought about Underground by Tom Waits but I'm guessing that's 2/4.
posted by crapmatic at 6:00 PM on January 19

jonmc, the world makes punk rock necessarier every day.
posted by rusty at 6:01 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

Odd Times Obsessed doesn't seem to be very focused on progressive rock at all. The playlist has as much jazz (Miles Davis, The Bad Plus, Dave Brubeck, Herbie Hancock, Weather Report, Mahavishnu Orchestra...) as anything else, as well as The Rite of Spring (all of it, it seems). If you're going to include post-bebop jazz and 20th century classical music, you basically can't throw a stone without hitting an odd meter.
posted by aswego at 6:11 PM on January 19

People still listen to radio?
posted by 2sheets at 6:13 PM on January 19

Yes, because of *course* rock was only "progressing" when you were a lad, wot?

Of course, I forget. All progress depends on the unreasonable man.

GOMLYDKs.

Tool is no more progressive now than Aerosmith was 20 years ago. Time keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping... into the future.
posted by jefflowrey at 6:14 PM on January 19

Solsbury Hill by Peter Gabriel, 7/4
posted by Feisty at 6:15 PM on January 19

What is four, anyway?
posted by not_on_display at 6:18 PM on January 19

Speaking of being kicked off the radio, the great Los Angeles station Indy 103.1 was recently replaced by Spanish language radio, leaving Jonesy's Jukebox featuring Steve Jones high and dry... the best radio show I've ever heard, with ultra-low-key interviews and always great, sometimes bizarre music... and Jonesy's stories about the music industry, the Pistols, and heroin. Check it out while the links are still up:

Link
posted by Huck500 at 6:21 PM on January 19

Whither Mars Volta?
posted by plexi at 6:21 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

Prog is alive and well on satellite radio (not that it's a thriving medium but...). Sirius has some kind of regular progfest -- the last time I was driving through the PNW, I got to hear all of Alan Parsons Project's Turn of a Friendly Card and Van der Graaf Generator's Plague of Lighthouse Keepers. In succession.

Sorry to hear about Jonesy's Jukebox. Now who's left to champion Cliff Richard to the younger generations?
posted by grounded at 6:45 PM on January 19

Progressive rock was kicked off American radio circa 1985

Ah, yes. I remember the congressional hearings well.

A: "All in favor?"
B: "1 2 3 4! 5?"
posted by joe lisboa at 6:47 PM on January 19 [5 favorites]

Rusty, the spirit of punk lives on, every day, in the hearts of children shopping at Hot Topics' all across America. Wonderfully edgy bands like Something Corporate and Dashboard Confessional tear down so-called 'pop' and 'rock' bands. You don't need to have talent like Nickelback to make music! You just need a sweet haircut like that chick from Paramore! YES WE CAN!

*runs to put on another Saves the Day album before really starting to cry*
posted by Bageena at 6:48 PM on January 19

tl; dl
posted by weston at 6:48 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

Actually, with Siberian Khatru from Close to the Edge on in the background, lemme just say.... I dig some Yes and King Crimson and old school Genesis and uneven meters, but I can see why the form sortof died. Even the people who were pretty good at it also turned out some stuff that's tedious to listen to. I think modern pop music would probably be richer if more artists made an endeavor at it, and it's fun to hear some elements you might identify with progressive rock in Sufjan Stevens and Sigur Ros and Geggy Tah and even an obscure Erasure tune or two. But I don't know if having artists whose identities are tied to the prog rock sprawling forms is a good idea.

Solsbury Hill by Peter Gabriel, 7/4

I kindof thought that might be the last top 100 hit past the 1985 boundary, but given its late 70s release, probably not. Wonder what the last one is.
posted by weston at 7:03 PM on January 19

Maybe it'll make punk rock neccessary all over again.

...and perhaps, just perhaps, this time the Prussian officers will tromp all over you dissenting proles. You know you deserve it.

Sorry, I meant to say "strut".

...stromp, perhaps?...
posted by aramaic at 7:05 PM on January 19

I love irregular meter.

The Nintendo RPG Mother 3 has a simple built-in rhythm game. During battles, you can tap a button in time with the background music to score a combo. Easy enough, right? Yeah -- except when the piece is in 29/16.
posted by danb at 7:07 PM on January 19

DING ding ding-ding-ding ding ding-ding-ding ding-ding
posted by eriko at 7:10 PM on January 19

Just dropping into this thread to say Thela Hun Ginjeet to all you good people.
posted by arcanecrowbar at 7:26 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

Self Evident Truth: putting 'progressive', 'alternative' or 'art' as a prefix before any genre usually means 'I consider myself above/am incapable of writing hooks, riffs or choruses.

Discuss.
posted by jonmc at 7:30 PM on January 19

Wonder what the last one is.

"Fell on Black Days" - 6/4, 1993, #4?

Can't think of one after that, but I gave up on the radio (much less the charts) pretty young. Surely there was a Tool song that charted. I remember one with a section in 7/8 on the radio a few years ago, but I was never a Tool fan.
posted by el_lupino at 7:44 PM on January 19

Heh. I roomed next to the guitarist from Saves the Day.
posted by Snyder at 7:53 PM on January 19

Speaking of Soundgarden, didn't "Outshined" (7/8 verse, I think?) break the charts at least for a second there?
posted by joe lisboa at 7:55 PM on January 19

Soundgarden did a lot of songs with irregular metre, yeah. "Spoonman" was another one, and it hit #3 in 1994.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 8:01 PM on January 19

Oh, yeah, and Radiohead does a lot of long songs in irregular metre. "Paranoid Android" hit #3 in the UK and is partly in 7/8 and is almost six and a half minutes long.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 8:04 PM on January 19

Radiohead does all kinds of stuff in weird time signatures, don't they?

NIN is full of them, too-- March of the pigs is in 29/8. Try playing that shit in Rock Band.. it ain't easy.

Oh, here, Wikipedia delivers as always.

List of Musical Works in Unusual Time Signatures.
posted by empath at 8:10 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

They Might be Giants songs not in 4/4 time.
posted by washburn at 8:11 PM on January 19

Soundgarden did a lot of songs with irregular metre, yeah. "Spoonman" was another one, and it hit #3 in 1994.

I don't think anyone can complain that song wasn't played on the radio enough.
posted by fshgrl at 8:16 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

Weird. I was thinking prog rock had kinda gone mainstream, what with the popularity of Tool, The Mars Volta, etc.... that it was hardly anything "special" anymore. Heck, I even hear Dream Theater on the radio sometimes. And plenty of non-musicians actually dig this stuff, which blows my mind -- back in the day, it seemed like only bass guitarists and drummers listened to Rush...
posted by LordSludge at 8:49 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

Is there such a thing as 1/1 or 1/2, and do any mainstream examples exist?

I could swear that there is a Beatles song in 1, but I don't remember what it is. For something to be in 1, it can't really have any accents, and you would be hard pressed to play a chord progression that people like that doesn't have some intrinsic harmonic rhythm that creates a perceptual accent even without any dynamic change, so you'll probably not find any mainstream music in 1. Bobbing your head to music with no accents is no kind of fun.

This is a good time, though, to mention Cardiacs, for whom the term 'pronk' (progressive punk) was apparently invented. They're still around and making amazing music, though I heard their main guy had a heart attack a few months ago back. They are among the most unique groups I've ever heard/seen.

Here's something fairly new. (NSFW due to conventionally unattractive naked bass player)
posted by nosila at 8:55 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure to this day Pink Floyd is the most popular prog rock band. And the albums that made them famous, "Dark Side of the Moon," "Wish You Were Here," and "The Wall," are all unashamedly proggy. Ironically enough their more conventional, pop-rock oriented music like "Obscured by Clouds" and "Music From the Film More" is the stuff that always seems to be forgotten.

Songs like "Breathe" and the 7/4 "Money" are still played on the radio all the time.

LordSludge, I like to think you're right and a new wave of progressive rock is set to emerge in the mainstream. As you mentioned, Tool, The Mars Volta, and Dream Theater are all very popular right now. Opeth and Porcupine Tree are making it up there too. Today it's the heavier prog rock bands that seem to gain the most manstream popularity. Teenagers are starting with metal, then encounter bands like Dream Theater and Opeth and move from there into progressive rock.
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 9:18 PM on January 19

*mainstream, rather. It's time for bed.
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 9:19 PM on January 19

OK, apparently I've been confusing math rock and progressive rock.

Math rock, I've believed, has been all about time signatures - the songs might not really make you feel anything, and maybe they're not supposed to. You're just supposed to marvel at the ability of the musicians to switch up the beat, and their virtuosity. Bands like Primus, Rush, and to a lesser extent Tool come to mind.

Progressive rock, on the other hand, might use odd time signatures, but I always thought the defining features included fantasy/sci fi themes, mutiple "movement" songs that take up entire sides of an LP with titles like "ACT FOUR: The Prince Descends From His Stately Throne and Sighs", lyrics that reference mythology in some way, and singing while dressed as a flower.

I knew there was some overlap, but I never thought math rock and prog rock were one and the same.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:39 PM on January 19

I like Opeth because they piss off the metal dudes by being too pretty and lyrical and they piss off the proggy nerds by being all dark and screamy.

Plus, Blackwater Park is a pretty great record, IMO.

But a little goes a long way. I can't sit down and listen to a whole album. But, hey, I can't live off of chocolate, either, and I love me some chocolate.

Also: Battles.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:55 PM on January 19

Someone can be incapable of writing choruses?! How weird. I often have difficulty finding the part that isn't the chorus, when I'm composing. The chorus tends to be the first part that takes coherent form in my mind. The riffs come about as a separate creation born from improvising around the theme.

Looking at this website, however, hurts my eyes. Why do they think this funky script is a good idea? Barely legible, at least it's white on black, instead of some idiotic low-contrast combination.

I never realized Solsbury Hill was in an odd timing, never paid that close attention to the beats (it is a favorite of mine). Makes me wonder what others of my favorites are odd timing. Rhythm isn't a strong suit of mine, I have a decent sense of it, as in 'feel', but that's it. There's very little book learning in my music, just the union of some native talent and growing up in a musical environment.
posted by Goofyy at 9:57 PM on January 19

Somebody beat me to mentioning Pink Floyd's "Money" in 7/4, but I guess that was a while ago. PJ Harvey has a song called "Water" on her first album that's in 5/4, and it still rocks pretty hard. The Walkmen have a lot of songs in 3/4, waltzes basically.
posted by bardic at 11:50 PM on January 19

to a lesser extent Tool come to mind.

I have a lot of trouble getting into most prog rock and metal, but even the weird ass time signature tool ("lateralus" with it's "you're drumming a goddamn fibonacci sequence? seriously?" comes to mind) really does move me. They've remained a weird outlier in my top favorite bands for a very long time.

Rush (like a cappella music) leaves me entirely cold while still going "yes, that takes quite a bit of skill. good show, chap".

I wish I had any idea what combination of elements makes Tool work for me because I would like to find more music that makes me feel the same way.
posted by flaterik at 12:13 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]

"Them Bones", Alice in Chains? I know it's been since like, 1993, but that's still not 1985.
posted by notsnot at 4:00 AM on January 20

Hello, Radiohead? Half their songs have weird-ass polyrhythmic time signatures.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:17 AM on January 20

I've actually had the misfortune to see a number of promising bandmates get bitten by the prog bug. there seems to be hook in most scenes.

punk and metal kids go to mathier hardcore like Dillinger Escape Plan and Horse the Band. Wussier ones go for Coheed and Cambria (shutter) or the Mars Volta (the Bastard child of At the Drive-In, which was a wonderful balance of trippy prog and grounded pop-punk). Funk kids get swallowed into Primus and early Incubus and then shoot off into Les Claypool's winding discography or Liquid Tension Experiment. Everyone else seems to get mixed up in Tool and A Perfect Circle. Hippy kids, of course, have no end to the wanky bands they can ape.

I can't talk of course. The latest from Wolf Parade, Decemberists, Deerhoof, Sufjan Stevens, the Islands. The indie kids are getting proggy too. Oh what a world.

Goddamn it, kids! Write some songs! I don't want to hear your movements!

ps go ahead and write them 5-4 or 7-8 if you like. Nothing wrong with that.
posted by es_de_bah at 5:25 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]

As an aside, talking about bands like Rush always makes me want to bring up this distinction. A person who can compose and perform a long winding piece in several strange times and cram every measure with choppy notes is a jock, and has the same skill-set as an athlete. A person who can make me want to listen to that piece is an artist.
ok. i'll get off my soap box now.

posted by es_de_bah at 5:30 AM on January 20 [2 favorites]

This just goes to show you what happens when you go all Jazz Odyssey on Top 40 radio.

on bass... derek smalls... he wrote this...
posted by Spatch at 6:11 AM on January 20

Late in the game. Tricky Beats
posted by Xurando at 6:28 AM on January 20

Don't forget Jethro Tull.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:25 AM on January 20

As soon as I saw a mention of prog-rock, I came in just to see what jonmc had to say. Now you all have me spun up a bit.

I grew up with a lot of exposure to the prog of the time period. As I got older, I ended up getting into electric bass, and with thatcame the usual slew of "Dude, check this guy out!" albums from fellow bass players that would feature someone who was incredibly talented at bass - but really lacked any feel and soul to it. This got worse when I entered the music school, in the composition program. Oops.

This group was getting more caught up in odd time signatures and doing things because it hadn't been done before, or because it was hard. It became "Dude, he followed an augmented major seventh with a major minor sixth* - HOLYSHIT!" What all of it had in common- It wasn't interesting to listen to beyond any technical merit. They were more of technical exercises, music written for other composers, and anyone else seeking out the next rule or limit to break.

I quickly removed myself from the school, and I found that I haven't touched anything labeled as progressive since (Well, only if you count Radiohead) - I've just wanted to ROCK and to have fun with it.

9/17 time signatures, bizarre chords, and technical virtuosity are all fine, as long as they are merely facets of the music, but once it starts driving the music, it becomes less about the music and more of a competition.


*may not actually exist, i replaced my music school education with PHP and Perl
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:38 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]

Oh, and can someone actually explain the appeal of Sufjan Stevens to me? Is he just playing a massive practical joke on the indy scene that people aren't getting, or what?
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:40 AM on January 20

The late 80's was when "Progressive rock" was renamed Math rock.

Best example of Math Rock ever, of course.

(Yay, 2000th comment. Superstar!)
posted by rokusan at 8:39 AM on January 20 [2 favorites]

well...

Hey Ya! - André 3000 / OutKast's was in some weird 4/4/-5/4 time signature

the recently massive - Electric Feel by MGMT is in a weird time Sig
posted by mary8nne at 9:06 AM on January 20

Prog rock wasn't "fired" or "pressured into resigning" or "kicked off American radio", it was outgrown.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:08 AM on January 20

Marisa: Rush is Math but not Prog? You might have that backwards, Rush is almost the definition of progressive rock! (At least back in the days of 2112, Caress of Steel, Hemispheres, etc.)

I'm with you, though, I've always though prog was about more than just wonky time signatures, though that's certainly a part of it, but not the whole.
posted by absalom at 10:08 AM on January 20

Hey, what's the time signature of someone's jock older brother coming in here and making fun of all of us and stealing our cheetos?
posted by not_on_display at 10:13 AM on January 20

Bageena writes "You don't need to have talent like Nickelback to make music!"

Talent like what?
posted by krinklyfig at 10:19 AM on January 20

weston writes "Even the people who were pretty good at it also turned out some stuff that's tedious to listen to."

Yeah, but that's true of pretty much any form of music, particularly most forms of pop music.
posted by krinklyfig at 10:19 AM on January 20

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing writes "Progressive rock, on the other hand, might use odd time signatures, but I always thought the defining features included fantasy/sci fi themes, mutiple 'movement' songs that take up entire sides of an LP with titles like 'ACT FOUR: The Prince Descends From His Stately Throne and Sighs', lyrics that reference mythology in some way, and singing while dressed as a flower."

You mean like 2112?
posted by krinklyfig at 10:22 AM on January 20

I don't think she has the time signature for "Blue Rondo Ala Turk" noted correctly. BA, Schmee A.
posted by queensissy at 11:37 AM on January 20

Hey Ya! - André 3000 / OutKast's was in some weird 4/4/-5/4 time signature

The Hey Ya! groove has one measure of 2/4 thrown into the otherwise 4/4 phrase, so technically it's not odd metered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Ya#Music_and_lyrics
posted by turbodog at 12:36 PM on January 20

There is actually a fairly healthy and lively prog scene far underground. And Rush still walks the earth, crushing down arena walls and playing their asses off.
posted by Ber at 3:07 PM on January 20

It wasn't interesting to listen to beyond any technical merit. ... 9/17 time signatures, bizarre chords, and technical virtuosity are all fine, as long as they are merely facets of the music, but once it starts driving the music, it becomes less about the music and more of a competition.

Translation: "Only I know the platonic essence that is TRUE music, and it just so happens to coincide with my record collection/iPod playlist."

Further translation: "Your favorite band sucks."
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:56 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]

This is a good time, though, to mention Cardiacs, for whom the term 'pronk' (progressive punk) was apparently invented. They're still around and making amazing music, though I heard their main guy had a heart attack a few months ago back.

How beautifully ironic.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:58 PM on January 20

I think Porcupine Tree is one of the best examples of music that's progressive but still accessible, and not just complex for the sake of complexity.

It takes a much higher level of skill to master than more straightforward rock music.

I also love Shudder to Think, which is kind of math-rocky but also kind of punk/alt. Get "Pony Express Record", their best.
posted by 4midori at 10:36 PM on January 20 [3 favorites]

Saxon Kane: for real.
posted by nosila at 5:50 AM on January 21

Oh, and can someone actually explain the appeal of Sufjan Stevens to me? Is he just playing a massive practical joke on the indy scene that people aren't getting, or what?

Most of his output is unlistenable to me, but it's all forgiven by the beautiful For the Widows of Paradise. Chicago is a pretty swell song as well.
posted by Bageena at 5:29 PM on January 27