NSA Spying: Cat now out of bag.
January 22, 2009 11:39 AM Subscribe
Russell Tice, former NSA security analyst, just came on the Keith Olbermann show revealing that the NSA's domestic surveillance programs were not only far greater in scope than formerly thought, but also were specifically targeted at journalists.
Let me be the first to convey my profound *shock*.
posted by facetious at 11:47 AM on January 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by facetious at 11:47 AM on January 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
Newspapers are where terrorists get their news.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:47 AM on January 22, 2009 [12 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:47 AM on January 22, 2009 [12 favorites]
Seems to be more like a giant sack that's being dumped upside down, and cats just keep poring out, along with tigers, pumas, jaguars ....
posted by mannequito at 11:49 AM on January 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
posted by mannequito at 11:49 AM on January 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
How awesome would it be that these "new" revelations are timed to let Obama "regretfully" withdraw his previous FISA support and enact new legislation (not to mention some prosecutions)?
Answer: Very, that's how awesome.
New question: How likely?
posted by DU at 11:50 AM on January 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
Answer: Very, that's how awesome.
New question: How likely?
posted by DU at 11:50 AM on January 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
I was hoping somebody would post this. Although some more supporting info might have been nice to flesh it out.
There's also this short Harper's piece on this story, which elaborates:
There's also this short Harper's piece on this story, which elaborates:
After expressing severe doubts about the operations of the NSA program, both Deputy Attorney General Comey and former Assistant Attorney General Jack Goldsmith both believe they also came under intense surveillance. Both decided to leave the Bush Administration after these developments.posted by saulgoodman at 11:50 AM on January 22, 2009 [4 favorites]
Just when you think you can't get any angrier ....sigh.
All that money and talent and effort thrown into a gigantic 8-year old hole. With the money we spent on crap like this we could've rebuilt New Orleans, on Mars, twice ... with enough left over to create National Healthcare, fix our infrastructure, and buy everyone a pony.
posted by The Whelk at 11:51 AM on January 22, 2009 [31 favorites]
All that money and talent and effort thrown into a gigantic 8-year old hole. With the money we spent on crap like this we could've rebuilt New Orleans, on Mars, twice ... with enough left over to create National Healthcare, fix our infrastructure, and buy everyone a pony.
posted by The Whelk at 11:51 AM on January 22, 2009 [31 favorites]
former NSA security analyst, just came on the Keith Olbermann show
A lot of liberals actually come during -- if not on -- Olbermann's show. Can't blame them, really. Sweet, sweet release.
posted by matteo at 11:54 AM on January 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
A lot of liberals actually come during -- if not on -- Olbermann's show. Can't blame them, really. Sweet, sweet release.
posted by matteo at 11:54 AM on January 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
You know, I was never in favor of arguments that we should rebuild New Orleans somewhere else until this Mars idea showed up. Mark me down as being intrigued.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:54 AM on January 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:54 AM on January 22, 2009 [7 favorites]
How awesome would it be that these "new" revelations are timed to let Obama "regretfully" withdraw his previous FISA support and enact new legislation (not to mention some prosecutions)?
Yes oh God yes. I got his point about compromise, but the FISA bill was probably the greatest point of criticism during the campaign to me. So, wishful thinking, but still.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:54 AM on January 22, 2009
Yes oh God yes. I got his point about compromise, but the FISA bill was probably the greatest point of criticism during the campaign to me. So, wishful thinking, but still.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:54 AM on January 22, 2009
I love ponies
posted by Mantix at 11:55 AM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Mantix at 11:55 AM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:56 AM on January 22, 2009 [8 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:56 AM on January 22, 2009 [8 favorites]
New question: How likely?
Answer: We'll see, but don't hold your breath.
It is my opinion that BushCo has lots of wonderful blackmail...that's why there was no October Surprise, because they had very little, if anything, on Obama.
Pelosi was complicit with torture, and all the Dems have kowed to the Cheney Administration, one would assume it had something to do with this. And the reason they wanted to keep it open was so that they could use it themselves in the future.
But, who knows...?
posted by Chuffy at 11:56 AM on January 22, 2009
Answer: We'll see, but don't hold your breath.
It is my opinion that BushCo has lots of wonderful blackmail...that's why there was no October Surprise, because they had very little, if anything, on Obama.
Pelosi was complicit with torture, and all the Dems have kowed to the Cheney Administration, one would assume it had something to do with this. And the reason they wanted to keep it open was so that they could use it themselves in the future.
But, who knows...?
posted by Chuffy at 11:56 AM on January 22, 2009
Jesus christ. And this after just a few days.
Imagine the real secrets.
posted by Damn That Television at 12:03 PM on January 22, 2009 [22 favorites]
Imagine the real secrets.
posted by Damn That Television at 12:03 PM on January 22, 2009 [22 favorites]
Russell Tice Confirms Everything We’ve Surmised About Bush’s Illegal Wiretap Program
posted by homunculus at 12:14 PM on January 22, 2009
posted by homunculus at 12:14 PM on January 22, 2009
To be fair, our President Obama did sign into law a bill that let all these guys off the hook.
So it would be little surprise if another NSA analyst comes on Olbermann tomorrow and notes that he could punch, rape and eat babies at this point, and that America can kiss his baby-snacking pucker because it's all legal.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:15 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
So it would be little surprise if another NSA analyst comes on Olbermann tomorrow and notes that he could punch, rape and eat babies at this point, and that America can kiss his baby-snacking pucker because it's all legal.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:15 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sigh. At least Guantanamo was closed today.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 12:19 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Imagine the real secrets.
They shipped people off to Syria to be tortured. They (the CIA) have bases where they keep undisclosed people and do undisclosed things to them. I don't think there's much left to hide. It would literally have to be eating people.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:21 PM on January 22, 2009 [5 favorites]
They shipped people off to Syria to be tortured. They (the CIA) have bases where they keep undisclosed people and do undisclosed things to them. I don't think there's much left to hide. It would literally have to be eating people.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:21 PM on January 22, 2009 [5 favorites]
Sigh. At least Guantanamo was closed today.
Uh, you're not paying attention.
posted by billysumday at 12:27 PM on January 22, 2009
Uh, you're not paying attention.
posted by billysumday at 12:27 PM on January 22, 2009
They (the CIA) have bases where they keep undisclosed people and do undisclosed things to them. I don't think there's much left to hide. It would literally have to be eating people.
The Culinary Insitute of America: Serving Mankind Since 1947
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:27 PM on January 22, 2009 [18 favorites]
The Culinary Insitute of America: Serving Mankind Since 1947
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:27 PM on January 22, 2009 [18 favorites]
Sigh. At least Guantanamo was closed today.
I have no idea what you mean by this.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:36 PM on January 22, 2009
I have no idea what you mean by this.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:36 PM on January 22, 2009
I really hope this guy doesn't travel in a personal jet. Or travel.
posted by Citizen Premier at 12:38 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Citizen Premier at 12:38 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sigh. At least Guantanamo was closed today.
I have no idea what you mean by this.
They shut down the water park for routine maintenance today. I guess it's hard work keeping the boards sanitary.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:40 PM on January 22, 2009
I have no idea what you mean by this.
They shut down the water park for routine maintenance today. I guess it's hard work keeping the boards sanitary.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:40 PM on January 22, 2009
Imagine the real secrets.
Friends of mine who in are the position to know told me more than a year ago that the FBI and NSA were no longer the nexus of domestic eavesdropping, and to look to the Defense Intelligence Agency, which will be a much harder nut to crack. Obama will only be read in on the real secrets now; I'm waiting to see how far into the crevices he will let public awareness shine.
posted by nicwolff at 12:44 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Friends of mine who in are the position to know told me more than a year ago that the FBI and NSA were no longer the nexus of domestic eavesdropping, and to look to the Defense Intelligence Agency, which will be a much harder nut to crack. Obama will only be read in on the real secrets now; I'm waiting to see how far into the crevices he will let public awareness shine.
posted by nicwolff at 12:44 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
To be fair, our President Obama did sign into law a bill that let all these guys off the hook.
Maybe not. My understanding is that the new law is written to have a very specifically defined scope, limited to authorizing the interception of international calls between suspected terrorists and parties in the US under certain circumstances (and granting retroactive immunity for that specific activities). But this new information seems to suggest the program targeted all journalists and domestic communications, bringing its legality under even the new law into question.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:50 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Maybe not. My understanding is that the new law is written to have a very specifically defined scope, limited to authorizing the interception of international calls between suspected terrorists and parties in the US under certain circumstances (and granting retroactive immunity for that specific activities). But this new information seems to suggest the program targeted all journalists and domestic communications, bringing its legality under even the new law into question.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:50 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
In a way, this is like hearing casualty estimates during a disaster go up over time. There's shock and outrage when you hear them the first time, but as each update comes out you find yourself reacting less and less. It was shocking when we found out that AT&T was capturing net traffic. It was somewhat less shocking when we found out they weren't the only one. But by the time the FISA bill came out, the reaction was muted (not that there wasn't one, but it wasn't enough to stop the bill or keep Obama from being elected). I fear this will be what happens when this bit of news gets around.
History may point to many Bush failures but it won't be able to deny him at least one success: getting Americans to willfully give up their Constitutional rights.
posted by tommasz at 12:55 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
History may point to many Bush failures but it won't be able to deny him at least one success: getting Americans to willfully give up their Constitutional rights.
posted by tommasz at 12:55 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Seems to be more like a giant sack that's being dumped upside down, and cats just keep poring out, ...
Wrong metaphor. Think Clown Car.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:57 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Wrong metaphor. Think Clown Car.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:57 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
hey (the CIA) have bases where they keep undisclosed people and do undisclosed things to them. I don't think there's much left to hide. It would literally have to be eating people.
According to NPR, those bases were ordered closed immediately (as in, right now--not a year from now like Gitmo).
posted by saulgoodman at 12:57 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
According to NPR, those bases were ordered closed immediately (as in, right now--not a year from now like Gitmo).
posted by saulgoodman at 12:57 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Agreed. I'm so ground down I have a hard time being being shocked at anything the government does anymore.
posted by dunkadunc at 12:58 PM on January 22, 2009
posted by dunkadunc at 12:58 PM on January 22, 2009
Obama DNI Nominee Blair: No Torture Or Warrantless Wiretapping On His Watch
posted by homunculus at 12:58 PM on January 22, 2009
posted by homunculus at 12:58 PM on January 22, 2009
I watch Olbermann almost every night, but I really wish he more than one guy's uncorroborated assertions before making it the centerpiece of a show. If the guy turns out to be faking, exaggerating, or otherwise incorrect, it will crash-and-burn Olbermann's career the way those alleged National Guard documents crashed Dan Rather's.
posted by faster than a speeding bulette at 1:02 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by faster than a speeding bulette at 1:02 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
It is blatantly about political control and blackmail, as that's precisely what the system, with the few details that were made public, was designed best to do.
This must be repeated. Why do you think impeachment was "off the table"? The Bushies had too much on too many people in Congress because they had been eavesdropping on them.
posted by vibrotronica at 1:03 PM on January 22, 2009 [11 favorites]
This must be repeated. Why do you think impeachment was "off the table"? The Bushies had too much on too many people in Congress because they had been eavesdropping on them.
posted by vibrotronica at 1:03 PM on January 22, 2009 [11 favorites]
Please let them prosecute Bush and his shitbag cronies, please? Please please please please?
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 1:11 PM on January 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 1:11 PM on January 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
one guy's uncorroborated assertions
Well, the Harper's article seems to provide a hint of corroboration from two highly-placed former officials:
both Deputy Attorney General Comey and former Assistant Attorney General Jack Goldsmith both believe they also came under intense surveillance. Both decided to leave the Bush Administration after these developments.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:16 PM on January 22, 2009
Well, the Harper's article seems to provide a hint of corroboration from two highly-placed former officials:
both Deputy Attorney General Comey and former Assistant Attorney General Jack Goldsmith both believe they also came under intense surveillance. Both decided to leave the Bush Administration after these developments.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:16 PM on January 22, 2009
The NSA wiretap program was about detecting leaks from within the government to the media, not anything to do with terrorists (though I think they did also use it to go after some child pornography rings).
They knew from day one they were going to break the law and violate the Constitution, and they also knew they would be able to stay in office and out of jail only if they could prevent knowledge of those acts from leaking out.
Obama allows the people who would do these things to escape all consequence at his (and our) peril.
posted by jamjam at 1:24 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
They knew from day one they were going to break the law and violate the Constitution, and they also knew they would be able to stay in office and out of jail only if they could prevent knowledge of those acts from leaking out.
Obama allows the people who would do these things to escape all consequence at his (and our) peril.
posted by jamjam at 1:24 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Screw this NSA stuff...I want to know about Area 51 and the Stargate program...
posted by troybob at 1:32 PM on January 22, 2009
posted by troybob at 1:32 PM on January 22, 2009
I TOLD YOU I WASN'T PARANOID.
posted by loquacious at 1:35 PM on January 22, 2009 [8 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 1:35 PM on January 22, 2009 [8 favorites]
Leprous cronies of a corrupt criminal regime returning to positions of power 30 years later to wreck the country again? Nahhh, it'll never happen.
This Message Brought to You By Monica Goodling for Attorney General in 2032.
posted by benzenedream at 1:36 PM on January 22, 2009
This Message Brought to You By Monica Goodling for Attorney General in 2032.
posted by benzenedream at 1:36 PM on January 22, 2009
Next Up: Facebook is a NSA Datamining Front?
posted by dunkadunc at 1:36 PM on January 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by dunkadunc at 1:36 PM on January 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
How many of those targeted journos worked for Fox?
posted by ardgedee at 1:41 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by ardgedee at 1:41 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Screw this NSA stuff...I want to know about Area 51 and the Stargate program...
The Bush administration was using remote viewers too?
posted by ryoshu at 1:44 PM on January 22, 2009
The Bush administration was using remote viewers too?
posted by ryoshu at 1:44 PM on January 22, 2009
“New question: How likely?”
Because if there’s one guy that’s just like Bush, it’s Obama .
It’s been a few days. What, he’s supposed to go back in time and change everything?
Even Bush cronies didn’t like this apparatus. So he’s going to have lots of folks looking to change all this -anyway.
The only way it gets kept in place is if Obama suddenly revels himself as a closet fascist and decides to keep it going.
Which, really, he can’t do anyway because of the partisan nature of the system that was in place anyway.
How can folks know that this was a para-governmental operation with GOP party hacks running it at the upper eschelons to surveil potential political opponents but then think somehow Obama’s going to want to have that in his administration?
Even though the capability was there, it’s not a mechanism that was in place in the government. These people had to build it.
He would have to create his own system - which I’m not dismissing as impossible - but then, why would it parallel Bush’s operation?
He’d use domestic surveillance for something completely different. Perhaps even actually, y’know, looking for terrorists.
Oh, I’d oppose it on constitutional and practical grounds, but at least it’d be legitimate in purpose.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:46 PM on January 22, 2009
Because if there’s one guy that’s just like Bush, it’s Obama .
It’s been a few days. What, he’s supposed to go back in time and change everything?
Even Bush cronies didn’t like this apparatus. So he’s going to have lots of folks looking to change all this -anyway.
The only way it gets kept in place is if Obama suddenly revels himself as a closet fascist and decides to keep it going.
Which, really, he can’t do anyway because of the partisan nature of the system that was in place anyway.
How can folks know that this was a para-governmental operation with GOP party hacks running it at the upper eschelons to surveil potential political opponents but then think somehow Obama’s going to want to have that in his administration?
Even though the capability was there, it’s not a mechanism that was in place in the government. These people had to build it.
He would have to create his own system - which I’m not dismissing as impossible - but then, why would it parallel Bush’s operation?
He’d use domestic surveillance for something completely different. Perhaps even actually, y’know, looking for terrorists.
Oh, I’d oppose it on constitutional and practical grounds, but at least it’d be legitimate in purpose.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:46 PM on January 22, 2009
How many of those targeted journos worked for Fox?
Vincente Fox? Probably none.
posted by spicynuts at 1:47 PM on January 22, 2009
"The National Security Agency acted on its own authority, without a formal directive from President Bush, to expand its domestic surveillance operations in the weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks, according to declassified documents released Tuesday.
The N.S.A. operation prompted questions from a leading Democrat, Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, who said in an Oct. 11, 2001, letter to a top intelligence official that she was concerned about the agency’s legal authority to expand its domestic operations, the documents showed.
Ms. Pelosi’s letter, which was declassified at her request, showed much earlier concerns among lawmakers about the agency’s domestic surveillance operations than had been previously known. Similar objections were expressed by Senator John D. Rockefeller IV, Democrat of West Virginia, in a secret letter to Vice President Dick Cheney nearly two years later.
The letter from Ms. Pelosi, the House minority leader, also suggested that the security agency, whose mission is to eavesdrop on foreign communications, moved immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks to identify terror suspects at home by loosening restrictions on domestic eavesdropping...."
sourc: http://decision08.net/2006/01/04/was-increased-domestic-eavesdropping-an-nsa-initiative/
google NSA and you will find they released a report about this domestic spying and in fact told Bush about it and asked for approval when Bush first took office.
posted by Postroad at 2:03 PM on January 22, 2009
The N.S.A. operation prompted questions from a leading Democrat, Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, who said in an Oct. 11, 2001, letter to a top intelligence official that she was concerned about the agency’s legal authority to expand its domestic operations, the documents showed.
Ms. Pelosi’s letter, which was declassified at her request, showed much earlier concerns among lawmakers about the agency’s domestic surveillance operations than had been previously known. Similar objections were expressed by Senator John D. Rockefeller IV, Democrat of West Virginia, in a secret letter to Vice President Dick Cheney nearly two years later.
The letter from Ms. Pelosi, the House minority leader, also suggested that the security agency, whose mission is to eavesdrop on foreign communications, moved immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks to identify terror suspects at home by loosening restrictions on domestic eavesdropping...."
sourc: http://decision08.net/2006/01/04/was-increased-domestic-eavesdropping-an-nsa-initiative/
google NSA and you will find they released a report about this domestic spying and in fact told Bush about it and asked for approval when Bush first took office.
posted by Postroad at 2:03 PM on January 22, 2009
All that money and talent and effort thrown into a gigantic 8-year old hole.
At least pedophiles have it extra-rough in prison?
posted by Evilspork at 2:04 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
At least pedophiles have it extra-rough in prison?
posted by Evilspork at 2:04 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you want to be critical of the NSA, then please note that they are not the only ones involved in
domestic spying:
"Spying on Americans by the super-secret National Security Agency is not only more widespread than President George W. Bush admits but is part of a concentrated, government-wide effort to gather and catalog information on U.S. citizens, sources close to the administration say.
Besides the NSA, the Pentagon, Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Department of Homeland Security and dozens of private contractors are spying on millions of Americans 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.
“It’s a total effort to build dossiers on as many Americans as possible,” says a former NSA agent who quit in disgust over use of the agency to spy on Americans. “We’re no longer in the business of tracking our enemies. We’re spying on everyday Americans.”
“It’s really obvious to me that it’s a look-at-everything type program,” says cryptology expert Bruce Schneier. ...
more found here
posted by Postroad at 2:16 PM on January 22, 2009
domestic spying:
"Spying on Americans by the super-secret National Security Agency is not only more widespread than President George W. Bush admits but is part of a concentrated, government-wide effort to gather and catalog information on U.S. citizens, sources close to the administration say.
Besides the NSA, the Pentagon, Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Department of Homeland Security and dozens of private contractors are spying on millions of Americans 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.
“It’s a total effort to build dossiers on as many Americans as possible,” says a former NSA agent who quit in disgust over use of the agency to spy on Americans. “We’re no longer in the business of tracking our enemies. We’re spying on everyday Americans.”
“It’s really obvious to me that it’s a look-at-everything type program,” says cryptology expert Bruce Schneier. ...
more found here
posted by Postroad at 2:16 PM on January 22, 2009
Obama Sides With Bush in Spy Case
posted by homunculus at 2:10 PM on January 22
Surely this...
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:19 PM on January 22, 2009
it will crash-and-burn Olbermann's career the way those alleged National Guard documents crashed Dan Rather's.
Nah. Olbermann isn't a news man. He's in the same boat as O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Hannity, et al. where facts are all a matter of opinion.
posted by eyeballkid at 2:26 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Nah. Olbermann isn't a news man. He's in the same boat as O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Hannity, et al. where facts are all a matter of opinion.
posted by eyeballkid at 2:26 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
The document's admission to the case is central for the two former lawyers of the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation charity to acquire legal standing so they may challenge the constitutionality of the warrantless eavesdropping program Bush publicly acknowledged in 2005.
Homunculus: In the particular case cited in the Wired article, a decent case could be made that the warrantless surveillance was carried out in accordance with congress' recently adopted surveillance legislation, in which case the conservative stacked Supreme Court would almost certainly uphold the constitutionality of the program. What congress passed into law allows this kind of surveillance, and the supreme court isn't likely to challenge congress' authority on the law as written.
This move is effectively meant to block them from appealing, but that might not be a bad thing. A better case than this needs to be brought before the court--for example, one involving American journalists who were wiretapped, since that not only involves the murkier legal issue of privacy rights (which are not explicitly defined in the constitution but are a matter of judicial precedent) but also touches on freedom of press issues. Whatever the motivations, it's probably a good thing this case doesn't make it's way before the Supreme Court, because it would likely set a precedent reinforcing the constitutionality of the current wiretapping programs.
This is not as straightforward a matter as the press is making it out to be, IMO.
posted by saulgoodman at 2:32 PM on January 22, 2009
Homunculus: In the particular case cited in the Wired article, a decent case could be made that the warrantless surveillance was carried out in accordance with congress' recently adopted surveillance legislation, in which case the conservative stacked Supreme Court would almost certainly uphold the constitutionality of the program. What congress passed into law allows this kind of surveillance, and the supreme court isn't likely to challenge congress' authority on the law as written.
This move is effectively meant to block them from appealing, but that might not be a bad thing. A better case than this needs to be brought before the court--for example, one involving American journalists who were wiretapped, since that not only involves the murkier legal issue of privacy rights (which are not explicitly defined in the constitution but are a matter of judicial precedent) but also touches on freedom of press issues. Whatever the motivations, it's probably a good thing this case doesn't make it's way before the Supreme Court, because it would likely set a precedent reinforcing the constitutionality of the current wiretapping programs.
This is not as straightforward a matter as the press is making it out to be, IMO.
posted by saulgoodman at 2:32 PM on January 22, 2009
I've blogged this elsewhere, so forgive me, but: Dick Cheney watched the inauguration from a wheelchair having hurt his back while moving boxes during his move out of his house.
This is not the kind of person who needs to lift his own boxes. So, basically, the outgoing Vice President has boxes too heavy for him to lift that contain something he doesn’t trust anyone else to touch.
Whatever’s in those boxes, you can be sure that it’s something that he has on somebody else, lots of somebody elses. And it must be awful.
posted by mhoye at 2:32 PM on January 22, 2009 [11 favorites]
This is not the kind of person who needs to lift his own boxes. So, basically, the outgoing Vice President has boxes too heavy for him to lift that contain something he doesn’t trust anyone else to touch.
Whatever’s in those boxes, you can be sure that it’s something that he has on somebody else, lots of somebody elses. And it must be awful.
posted by mhoye at 2:32 PM on January 22, 2009 [11 favorites]
Whatever’s in those boxes, you can be sure that it’s something that he has on somebody else, lots of somebody elses. And it must be awful.
You can't trust just anyone with dead baby carcasses.
posted by ryoshu at 2:39 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
You can't trust just anyone with dead baby carcasses.
posted by ryoshu at 2:39 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
TICE: ...even for the NSA, it's impossible to literally collect all communications. Americans tend to be a chatty group.
Yes, further complicated by the tendency to do things like bring up diesel fuel and ammonium nitrate. For no particular reason.
Why hello there agent! Have fun following up ten thousand occurrences of "nanojath" (fuck man I need help). nanojath is christian pacifist, pleased to not tase me, bro!
posted by nanojath at 2:45 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Yes, further complicated by the tendency to do things like bring up diesel fuel and ammonium nitrate. For no particular reason.
Why hello there agent! Have fun following up ten thousand occurrences of "nanojath" (fuck man I need help). nanojath is christian pacifist, pleased to not tase me, bro!
posted by nanojath at 2:45 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Screw this NSA stuff...I want to know about Area 51 and the Stargate program...
You kid (I hope and trust, for your own sake) but there's this guy who lives down the street from me and is, in all other respects, apparently intelligent and concerned about world affairs who refused to vote for Obama on the grounds that he (O) didn't take the impending reptilian invasion seriously enough. Enough.
I guess if you're lucky enough to pick political sides these days, far better to wind up with the Area 51 wackos then the God-watches-where-you-put-your-weiner wackos, but still...
posted by joe lisboa at 2:54 PM on January 22, 2009
You kid (I hope and trust, for your own sake) but there's this guy who lives down the street from me and is, in all other respects, apparently intelligent and concerned about world affairs who refused to vote for Obama on the grounds that he (O) didn't take the impending reptilian invasion seriously enough. Enough.
I guess if you're lucky enough to pick political sides these days, far better to wind up with the Area 51 wackos then the God-watches-where-you-put-your-weiner wackos, but still...
posted by joe lisboa at 2:54 PM on January 22, 2009
The NSA wiretap program was about detecting leaks from within the government to the media, not anything to do with terrorists (though I think they did also use it to go after some child pornography rings).
Sounds like a pretense to me, if someone objected they could have gotten a hundred reporters to film some administration shill to look into the camera and say "You're not against protecting children... are you??"
It becomes more and more obvious that Cheney had been planning this for decades. It really was a huge Evil Mastermind-style of plot.
posted by JHarris at 2:58 PM on January 22, 2009
If the guy turns out to be faking, exaggerating, or otherwise incorrect, it will crash-and-burn Olbermann's career the way those alleged National Guard documents crashed Dan Rather's.
Dan Rather's career wasn't crashed, from what I heard, by the documents. There had been behind-the-scenes strife between him and CBS for a while, the documents were just the convenient pretense.
And eyeballkid's correct, Olbermann's show is an opinion program. (And just because he's on our side, it doesn't mean he's not a little strident himself at times. I'm sure O'Reiley will thrive in this environment, but I have to wonder what Olbie's gonna do now the Easy-Target-In-Chief's been set to permanent brush-clearing duty.)
posted by JHarris at 3:04 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Dan Rather's career wasn't crashed, from what I heard, by the documents. There had been behind-the-scenes strife between him and CBS for a while, the documents were just the convenient pretense.
And eyeballkid's correct, Olbermann's show is an opinion program. (And just because he's on our side, it doesn't mean he's not a little strident himself at times. I'm sure O'Reiley will thrive in this environment, but I have to wonder what Olbie's gonna do now the Easy-Target-In-Chief's been set to permanent brush-clearing duty.)
posted by JHarris at 3:04 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
I seriously believe that Cheney was in a wheelchair so that he wouldn't have to stand for a Democratic President.
I don't necessarily think that Dick Cheney is an evil mastermind... I just think that he's in league with Satan.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:28 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
I don't necessarily think that Dick Cheney is an evil mastermind... I just think that he's in league with Satan.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:28 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Really, who couldn't see this coming? Our economic crises, our foreign issues, and this horseshit all have the same root - conservative middle America's sycophantic respect for power and authority.
This is what you get when you respect power and authority to the point that you hand over the reins. When you do that, you will always, always, always get fucked. History is replete with examples.
Respect the law. Respect the system. Respect yourself. But never respect authority.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 3:41 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
This is what you get when you respect power and authority to the point that you hand over the reins. When you do that, you will always, always, always get fucked. History is replete with examples.
Respect the law. Respect the system. Respect yourself. But never respect authority.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 3:41 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
My momma always said that if you have done nothin wrong then you should not be afeard of being listened to by your government and only guilty folks worry about such stuff.
posted by Postroad at 3:50 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Postroad at 3:50 PM on January 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
I don't necessarily think that Dick Cheney is an evil mastermind... I just think that he's in league with Satan.
Please ... Satan wouldn't have anything to do with that hack.
posted by mannequito at 4:03 PM on January 22, 2009
Please ... Satan wouldn't have anything to do with that hack.
posted by mannequito at 4:03 PM on January 22, 2009
I'm still in love with this thing:
http://james.nerdiphythesoul.com/bennyhillifier/?id=WTq6AQxY4Xg
posted by xorry at 4:26 PM on January 22, 2009
http://james.nerdiphythesoul.com/bennyhillifier/?id=WTq6AQxY4Xg
posted by xorry at 4:26 PM on January 22, 2009
As a journalist, I have had many reasons to be disappointed recently...
posted by bugmuncher at 5:01 PM on January 22, 2009
posted by bugmuncher at 5:01 PM on January 22, 2009
...refused to vote for Obama on the grounds that he (O) didn't take the impending reptilian invasion seriously enough.
How did the other candidates fare against this yardstick, exactly, and how did he know?
posted by rokusan at 5:06 PM on January 22, 2009
How did the other candidates fare against this yardstick, exactly, and how did he know?
posted by rokusan at 5:06 PM on January 22, 2009
Huh, and I always thought I was being excessively paranoid, but it turns out I was actually being *prudently* paranoid. In retrospect, I now feel smart. But still paranoid.
posted by jamstigator at 5:24 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by jamstigator at 5:24 PM on January 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Someone needs to get Patrick Fitzgerald all over these motherfuckers.
posted by billypilgrim at 7:06 PM on January 22, 2009
posted by billypilgrim at 7:06 PM on January 22, 2009
According to NPR, those bases were ordered closed immediately
I wish I could believe there was a way to confirm that they are, in fact, closed. I do not doubt for a second that the CIA, NSA, DID, and other TLA have secret operations. These organizations are essentially build for such things: how best to have security, than to simply not tell anyone.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:59 PM on January 22, 2009
I wish I could believe there was a way to confirm that they are, in fact, closed. I do not doubt for a second that the CIA, NSA, DID, and other TLA have secret operations. These organizations are essentially build for such things: how best to have security, than to simply not tell anyone.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:59 PM on January 22, 2009
“New question: How likely?”
Because if there’s one guy that’s just like Bush, it’s Obama .
The "How likely" you quoted was about Obama withdrawing his support for FISA specifically. I think that is extremely unlikely. Will Obama support every bit of spying/etc Bush did? No. Will he tear all of it down? Also no. He voted for FISA, and I hardly see it as one of his priorities to overturn a bill he voted for less than a year ago.
posted by wildcrdj at 8:50 PM on January 22, 2009
Because if there’s one guy that’s just like Bush, it’s Obama .
The "How likely" you quoted was about Obama withdrawing his support for FISA specifically. I think that is extremely unlikely. Will Obama support every bit of spying/etc Bush did? No. Will he tear all of it down? Also no. He voted for FISA, and I hardly see it as one of his priorities to overturn a bill he voted for less than a year ago.
posted by wildcrdj at 8:50 PM on January 22, 2009
"The "How likely" you quoted was about Obama withdrawing his support for FISA specifically. I think that is extremely unlikely. Will Obama support every bit of spying/etc Bush did? No. Will he tear all of it down? Also no. He voted for FISA, and I hardly see it as one of his priorities to overturn a bill he voted for less than a year ago."
For the record, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act was passed in 1978, so Obama did not and could not have voted for it or against it. Nor should this complex issue be framed as the question of whether Obama (or any other politician) "supports FISA" or not. It is also confusing to simply say someone "supports spying", because, in fact, most people believe that foreign telephone surveillance is legally justified and practically necessary. A blanket ban on wiretaps of any kind would fail to pass the congress by a large margin. At the same time, many Republicans (especially those of a libertarian bent) are just as concerned about protecting Americans from surveillance as Democrats are.
FISA is not considered by most experts to be a bad bill insofar as it elaborates procedures for conducting telephone surveillance, but only insofar as its legal and logistical procedures a) fail to provide sufficient protections for American citizens abroad b) fail to prevent domestic surveillance through loopholes and c) fail to specifically address the question in the context of terrorism.
It is an important bit of history to understand that FISA was instituted to protect Americans after the Nixon years.
Bush's "interpretation" of FISA in the age of terrorism, however, was that the traditional assumption of a wall between criminal and intelligence surveillance was incorrect, and in 2001 the Patriot act made this "interpretation" more plausible by changing the wording of the bill. It also removed the requirement that government agencies prove that the object of surveillance was a non-U.S. citizen.
The bill Obama supported (and for which he was pilloried by some Democrats, often in a very uninformed way) was the Protect America Act of 2007. This bill, while explicitly allowing foreign telephone surveillance without a warrant, made several important clarifications meant to protect American citizens abroad, and reaffirmed the FISA court's basic jurisdiction over the government's actions (something made necessary by various statements and actions of the Bush administration, which often gave the impression it felt FISA did not have such jurisdiction). It also established reporting requirements for the Attorney General and NSA that would create a paper trail about the government's activities. Last but not least, it infamously granted immunity to telecommunications companies who had complied with the Bush administration's requests.
Now, whatever you think of the immunity provision, it is basically confusing and misleading to describe Obama's support for the Protect America Act as "support for FISA", or even necessarily as support for warrantless wiretapping - even though the bill does technically allow warrantless wiretaps. The PAA is clearly a piece of compromise legislation that Obama has indicated he had mixed feelings about.
But it is not hard to imagine that a) he agreed that telecoms should not be held legally accountable in a civil court for complying with the orders of the U.S. government b) he was concerned about the unchecked manner in which wiretaps were being obtained in the wake of the Patriot Act and wanted to reassert the jurisdiction of the FISA courts and c) he wanted to explicitly mandate compliance to some kind of reporting scheme as a means to create a paper trail for the Bush administration's actions - they could always ignore it, but only in violation of the law. The reporting requirements were retroactive, by the way.
In other words, Obama was trying to insure that, once Bush left office, the entire program (and all records of its activities) didn't simply evaporate in a cloud of smoke.
Also, regarding overturning the PAA, Obama has said that he believes this issue is complicated and that PAA's protections of American citizens are less than adequate. In fact, almost no one believes that this issue is currently resolved in a satisfactory manner. Thus, we could well see Obama or the current congress revisit it in a systematic way.
posted by macross city flaneur at 4:13 AM on January 23, 2009 [6 favorites]
For the record, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act was passed in 1978, so Obama did not and could not have voted for it or against it. Nor should this complex issue be framed as the question of whether Obama (or any other politician) "supports FISA" or not. It is also confusing to simply say someone "supports spying", because, in fact, most people believe that foreign telephone surveillance is legally justified and practically necessary. A blanket ban on wiretaps of any kind would fail to pass the congress by a large margin. At the same time, many Republicans (especially those of a libertarian bent) are just as concerned about protecting Americans from surveillance as Democrats are.
FISA is not considered by most experts to be a bad bill insofar as it elaborates procedures for conducting telephone surveillance, but only insofar as its legal and logistical procedures a) fail to provide sufficient protections for American citizens abroad b) fail to prevent domestic surveillance through loopholes and c) fail to specifically address the question in the context of terrorism.
It is an important bit of history to understand that FISA was instituted to protect Americans after the Nixon years.
Bush's "interpretation" of FISA in the age of terrorism, however, was that the traditional assumption of a wall between criminal and intelligence surveillance was incorrect, and in 2001 the Patriot act made this "interpretation" more plausible by changing the wording of the bill. It also removed the requirement that government agencies prove that the object of surveillance was a non-U.S. citizen.
The bill Obama supported (and for which he was pilloried by some Democrats, often in a very uninformed way) was the Protect America Act of 2007. This bill, while explicitly allowing foreign telephone surveillance without a warrant, made several important clarifications meant to protect American citizens abroad, and reaffirmed the FISA court's basic jurisdiction over the government's actions (something made necessary by various statements and actions of the Bush administration, which often gave the impression it felt FISA did not have such jurisdiction). It also established reporting requirements for the Attorney General and NSA that would create a paper trail about the government's activities. Last but not least, it infamously granted immunity to telecommunications companies who had complied with the Bush administration's requests.
Now, whatever you think of the immunity provision, it is basically confusing and misleading to describe Obama's support for the Protect America Act as "support for FISA", or even necessarily as support for warrantless wiretapping - even though the bill does technically allow warrantless wiretaps. The PAA is clearly a piece of compromise legislation that Obama has indicated he had mixed feelings about.
But it is not hard to imagine that a) he agreed that telecoms should not be held legally accountable in a civil court for complying with the orders of the U.S. government b) he was concerned about the unchecked manner in which wiretaps were being obtained in the wake of the Patriot Act and wanted to reassert the jurisdiction of the FISA courts and c) he wanted to explicitly mandate compliance to some kind of reporting scheme as a means to create a paper trail for the Bush administration's actions - they could always ignore it, but only in violation of the law. The reporting requirements were retroactive, by the way.
In other words, Obama was trying to insure that, once Bush left office, the entire program (and all records of its activities) didn't simply evaporate in a cloud of smoke.
Also, regarding overturning the PAA, Obama has said that he believes this issue is complicated and that PAA's protections of American citizens are less than adequate. In fact, almost no one believes that this issue is currently resolved in a satisfactory manner. Thus, we could well see Obama or the current congress revisit it in a systematic way.
posted by macross city flaneur at 4:13 AM on January 23, 2009 [6 favorites]
tangentially related: some more good news about the future of government transparency under obama.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:34 AM on January 23, 2009
posted by saulgoodman at 9:34 AM on January 23, 2009
New York Times Reporter James Risen: I May Have Been A Victim Of The NSA’s Program Spying On Journalists.
posted by ericb at 10:07 AM on January 23, 2009
posted by ericb at 10:07 AM on January 23, 2009
I seriously believe that Cheney was in a wheelchair so that he wouldn't have to stand for a Democratic President.
I seriously believe that Cheney was in a wheelchair so that he wouldn't have to stand for an African American Democratic President.
posted by ericb at 10:14 AM on January 23, 2009
I seriously believe that Cheney was in a wheelchair so that he wouldn't have to stand for an African American Democratic President.
posted by ericb at 10:14 AM on January 23, 2009
How to Prove Intentionality of Domestic Surveillance?
posted by homunculus at 12:24 PM on January 23, 2009
posted by homunculus at 12:24 PM on January 23, 2009
James Bamford's new book, The Shadow Factory is an amazing picture of the lead-up to 9/11 and the aftermath, not to mention the revelation about the role of Israeli companies Narus and Verint and their close ties to the Israeli spy agency. [Narus and Verint are specialists in "mass surveillance" and supplied room 641A with devices that analyze the semantic metadata of ISPs.]
posted by acro at 1:39 PM on January 23, 2009
posted by acro at 1:39 PM on January 23, 2009
Speaking of Darth Cheney and The Evil Lizard Overlords...didja know he hunted humans for sport? (Well, come on...it does seem in character.)
Oh, the tinfoiled ones tried to warn us. They did. But did we listen? Oh no. We scoffed. "Silly tinfoil hat people", we said..."there's no such thing as Evil Lizard Overlords. And surely Dick Cheney, what with his heart condition, is not chasing down nubile young women through the woods, even if he does get to shoot at them."
But now...after staring into the dead eyes of Laura Bush for the better part of a decade, one could be excused for thinking that maybe...just maybe...there are Reptilian Masters. And having seen Dick shoot someone in the face, and then having the *shootee* apologize for getting in the way of the bullets...I'm just saying...the TFH Brigade may be on to something.
A note to the NSA: I kid The Evil One. Please don't come to my house and disappear me.
posted by dejah420 at 1:40 PM on January 23, 2009
Oh, the tinfoiled ones tried to warn us. They did. But did we listen? Oh no. We scoffed. "Silly tinfoil hat people", we said..."there's no such thing as Evil Lizard Overlords. And surely Dick Cheney, what with his heart condition, is not chasing down nubile young women through the woods, even if he does get to shoot at them."
But now...after staring into the dead eyes of Laura Bush for the better part of a decade, one could be excused for thinking that maybe...just maybe...there are Reptilian Masters. And having seen Dick shoot someone in the face, and then having the *shootee* apologize for getting in the way of the bullets...I'm just saying...the TFH Brigade may be on to something.
A note to the NSA: I kid The Evil One. Please don't come to my house and disappear me.
posted by dejah420 at 1:40 PM on January 23, 2009
NSA Whistleblower: Wiretaps Were Combined with Credit Card Records of U.S. Citizens
posted by homunculus at 9:41 PM on January 23, 2009
posted by homunculus at 9:41 PM on January 23, 2009
NSA Whistleblower: Grill the CEOs on Illegal Spying
posted by homunculus at 7:45 PM on January 26, 2009
posted by homunculus at 7:45 PM on January 26, 2009
The Spy Factory: NOVA investigates the high-tech eavesdropping carried out by the National Security Agency and the effectiveness of surveillance in an age of terrorism.
posted by homunculus at 8:11 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 8:11 PM on February 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
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posted by troy at 11:44 AM on January 22, 2009