Not so "magical" anymore, is it?
April 8, 2009 1:45 PM Subscribe
Disney made one movie, and they've been tracing it ever since.
They didn't really even make it in the first place.
posted by Rinku at 1:49 PM on April 8, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by Rinku at 1:49 PM on April 8, 2009 [5 favorites]
There are several things going on here:
- Rotoscoping: animation made from tracing over film of live action (a kickass example: Cab Calloway rotoscoped in a Betty Boop cartoon).
- Recycling sequences to save money (yes, everything has to be redrawn anyway, but figuring out the movements takes much more time than adjusting existing animation to new characters).
- Intentional referencing: the Beauty and the Beast waltz scene strikes me less as "Hey, let's save money!" and more "Let's remind people that we do princess movies best!"
I think we all already knew that Desney's Robin Hood is one of the laziest animated films ever made.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:04 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:04 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Disney's, rather.
Desney's was magnificent.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:04 PM on April 8, 2009 [23 favorites]
Desney's was magnificent.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:04 PM on April 8, 2009 [23 favorites]
But, damn, that bear can dance.
posted by mullacc at 2:06 PM on April 8, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by mullacc at 2:06 PM on April 8, 2009 [6 favorites]
Robin Hood remains my favorite Disney production of all time. I don't particularly care that they copied ONE dance sequence across (by my count) 4 movies.
weak sauce on the part of college humor.
posted by Severian at 2:11 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
weak sauce on the part of college humor.
posted by Severian at 2:11 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
You are so not going to believe what I just found out about Star Wars and this totally no-name Japanese film.
Also, you are so not going to believe what I just found out about Indiana Jones and every film made in the 1940's.
Also, you are so not going to believe what I just found out about Office Space
and Superman II.
Wait, you knew that last one?
posted by GuyZero at 2:14 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Also, you are so not going to believe what I just found out about Indiana Jones and every film made in the 1940's.
Also, you are so not going to believe what I just found out about Office Space
and Superman II.
Wait, you knew that last one?
posted by GuyZero at 2:14 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Worse, all those animations are mine. I'll see them in court and I WILL win. Meanwhile please send me money to help with court costs etc....
posted by panboi at 2:15 PM on April 8, 2009 [20 favorites]
posted by panboi at 2:15 PM on April 8, 2009 [20 favorites]
If you get a bear to dance that well you better make sure to wring as much value out of it as you can. Every last drop. Normally when bear dances it's just phoning it in you know. It's very crude and mechanical. Like if you saw it in the wild with no music or anything you would just think the bear was acting strangely, you wouldn't know that it was a dance at all. This bear was getting down.
posted by I Foody at 2:19 PM on April 8, 2009 [10 favorites]
posted by I Foody at 2:19 PM on April 8, 2009 [10 favorites]
The Wild One came on TCM the other day and I realized it's the same movie as Gremlins..
posted by swift at 2:19 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by swift at 2:19 PM on April 8, 2009
Isn't Robin Hood the specific one famous for being cheap, low-budget, etc and reusing shots?
I don't think the theory works if you remove that film from the comparisons, since it was sort of a special case... but expecting me to remember a film class is asking too much.
(That said, Kimba/Simba was theft by lawyer, for sure.)
posted by rokusan at 2:19 PM on April 8, 2009
I don't think the theory works if you remove that film from the comparisons, since it was sort of a special case... but expecting me to remember a film class is asking too much.
(That said, Kimba/Simba was theft by lawyer, for sure.)
posted by rokusan at 2:19 PM on April 8, 2009
I can't say I've seen it recently, but I loved Robin Hood as a kid.
posted by graventy at 2:20 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by graventy at 2:20 PM on April 8, 2009
Aaaaand ... now we all know why Pixar was created.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:20 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:20 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
Disney made one movie, consisting of one dance number; anything else you may recall from your viewing experience was hallucination. Seriously, lay off the drugs.
Or share, at least.
posted by owtytrof at 2:24 PM on April 8, 2009
Or share, at least.
posted by owtytrof at 2:24 PM on April 8, 2009
neither disney nor college humor have to try very hard. their audiences do not demand anything new, creative, or better.
posted by the aloha at 2:29 PM on April 8, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by the aloha at 2:29 PM on April 8, 2009 [5 favorites]
Sex is the same thing over and over, too. As is chocolate. And the smell of peach blossoms. And a kiss. Not that Disney is as elemental as that, but if it it good, what is wrong with doing it again?
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:36 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:36 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
Nope, if you watch the actual movies back to back to back.... still pretty magical.
posted by Lacking Subtlety at 2:46 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by Lacking Subtlety at 2:46 PM on April 8, 2009
Any clip reel featuring mostly bits from Disney's execrable xerographic process period is going to suck for many reasons. The fact that they re-used movements is low on the list of offenses.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:46 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by Thorzdad at 2:46 PM on April 8, 2009
Shit, Rinku. Thanks for linking that. I vaguely remember someone mentioning The Lion King being a ripoff of something from Japan when I worked at a video store years ago, but I never checked it out. That is so weak.
The Lion King came out when I was ten and I ate it right up. I sort of feel betrayed now. Heh.
posted by defenestration at 2:51 PM on April 8, 2009
The Lion King came out when I was ten and I ate it right up. I sort of feel betrayed now. Heh.
posted by defenestration at 2:51 PM on April 8, 2009
A copy that isn't ebaum'ed by collegehumor on youtube.
Put me in the "they recycled like crazy" camp. There's no adequate excuse for this other than crazy cheapness.
posted by jscott at 2:52 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
Put me in the "they recycled like crazy" camp. There's no adequate excuse for this other than crazy cheapness.
posted by jscott at 2:52 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
I don't think animals have any other dance moves anyway.
posted by wocka wocka wocka at 2:57 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by wocka wocka wocka at 2:57 PM on April 8, 2009
That was beautiful. I wish someone would make a snow-white style hand animation again.
posted by debbie_ann at 3:08 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by debbie_ann at 3:08 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
There's no adequate excuse for this other than crazy cheapness
Budgetary constraints and production efficiency are not the same thing as "crazy cheapness." Just, y'know, fyi.
posted by dersins at 3:12 PM on April 8, 2009 [5 favorites]
Budgetary constraints and production efficiency are not the same thing as "crazy cheapness." Just, y'know, fyi.
posted by dersins at 3:12 PM on April 8, 2009 [5 favorites]
The World Famous: "The Lion King came out when I was ten and I ate it right up. I sort of feel betrayed now. Heh.
You should probably never read Hamlet, then."
I find that I want to respond sarcastically, snark-for-snark, in some defensive manner. I'd rather just ask: what is your point? Is it just empty wit? Hamlet has obviously influenced many stories, including The Lion King. Is that the joke? LOLobvious? Should it be obvious that something like The Lion King would contain scene-for-scene rip-offs and copied imagery from lesser known foreign works?
Also, I highly doubt Disney would say they have never heard of Hamlet.
posted by defenestration at 3:15 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
You should probably never read Hamlet, then."
I find that I want to respond sarcastically, snark-for-snark, in some defensive manner. I'd rather just ask: what is your point? Is it just empty wit? Hamlet has obviously influenced many stories, including The Lion King. Is that the joke? LOLobvious? Should it be obvious that something like The Lion King would contain scene-for-scene rip-offs and copied imagery from lesser known foreign works?
Also, I highly doubt Disney would say they have never heard of Hamlet.
posted by defenestration at 3:15 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
This may sound a little strange, but as a Swede seeing this is both disturbing and confirming at the same time. WTF do I mean? Well, every single Christmas eve (the 24th; when us heathens celebrate Christmas) we're subjected to a 50s Disney Christmas special. Why? It's just sort of become tradition. We have our Xmas eves scheduled from top to bottom without even knowing.
At around 3 PM on the 24th of December, we all (and I mean ALL(!) sit down to watch this ancient 50s Walt Disney Christmas Special. This "Special" is repeated to the letter every single year without fail. The only difference year-to-year is the "upcoming feature" segment, which features shots from whatever the hell the new Disney movie of the year is.
To put this in some kind of perspective; every single x-mas we are exposed to the same old repetitious animations and by some virtue accept it. We are not a religious fold at this point in time and the only x-mas thing that truly matters is the WOW of Christmas.
Yeehaw, piece of Sweden-American history.
posted by pyrex at 3:16 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
At around 3 PM on the 24th of December, we all (and I mean ALL(!) sit down to watch this ancient 50s Walt Disney Christmas Special. This "Special" is repeated to the letter every single year without fail. The only difference year-to-year is the "upcoming feature" segment, which features shots from whatever the hell the new Disney movie of the year is.
To put this in some kind of perspective; every single x-mas we are exposed to the same old repetitious animations and by some virtue accept it. We are not a religious fold at this point in time and the only x-mas thing that truly matters is the WOW of Christmas.
Yeehaw, piece of Sweden-American history.
posted by pyrex at 3:16 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sex is the same thing over and over, too.
Maybe with you it is.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go find a dolphin, a landmine, a vicar, twelve gallons of orange juice and a catapult. I've almost worked out the logistics for tonight's plans.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 3:18 PM on April 8, 2009 [19 favorites]
Maybe with you it is.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go find a dolphin, a landmine, a vicar, twelve gallons of orange juice and a catapult. I've almost worked out the logistics for tonight's plans.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 3:18 PM on April 8, 2009 [19 favorites]
I wish.
I recently saw a CGI Disney show based on Winny the Pooh. It was horrifying. Winnie the Pooh should not be frenetic, loud and annoying. Winnie the Pooh should not be piss poor cheapskate animation.
A.A. Milne is probably doing 1000 RPM in his grave because of this shit.
posted by Artw at 3:23 PM on April 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
I recently saw a CGI Disney show based on Winny the Pooh. It was horrifying. Winnie the Pooh should not be frenetic, loud and annoying. Winnie the Pooh should not be piss poor cheapskate animation.
A.A. Milne is probably doing 1000 RPM in his grave because of this shit.
posted by Artw at 3:23 PM on April 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
Sometimes I get that feeling reading mefi.
What? A fattie/drug war/police abuse thread again? Didn't we already do this? No? I'm sure I saw it before. Well, ok, if you insist.
posted by formless at 3:24 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
What? A fattie/drug war/police abuse thread again? Didn't we already do this? No? I'm sure I saw it before. Well, ok, if you insist.
posted by formless at 3:24 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
I've almost worked out the logistics for tonight's plans.
You're forgetting the car battery and jumper cables. Also, what are you planning on for the midget-to-iguana ratio?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:31 PM on April 8, 2009
You're forgetting the car battery and jumper cables. Also, what are you planning on for the midget-to-iguana ratio?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:31 PM on April 8, 2009
Metafilter: I sort of feel betrayed now. Heh.
posted by Hands of Manos at 3:40 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by Hands of Manos at 3:40 PM on April 8, 2009
As a kid, I loved Disney cartoons (but loved the parks more) and we rented each one as they came out on video. Then we got a copy of Robin Hood and I watched it a zillion times over. I knew who Andy Devine and Roger Miller and Phil Harris and Pat Buttram were even though it didn't seem like any other kids cared.
At any rate, there came a time when I was watching the film that I recognized the way Maid Marian was dancing in the "Phony King of England" scene. It looked just like Snow White's dancing! And when we rented other Disney cartoons on VHS, I'd watch them and then see if anything looked similar in Robin Hood.
And my reaction to this? It was not one of "how cheap" or "unoriginal."
It was "Cool! They're hiding secret stuff in the movie!"
I still kind of feel that way even when I know it really was to save some bucks. And Phil Harris is still like a god unto me.
posted by Spatch at 3:52 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
At any rate, there came a time when I was watching the film that I recognized the way Maid Marian was dancing in the "Phony King of England" scene. It looked just like Snow White's dancing! And when we rented other Disney cartoons on VHS, I'd watch them and then see if anything looked similar in Robin Hood.
And my reaction to this? It was not one of "how cheap" or "unoriginal."
It was "Cool! They're hiding secret stuff in the movie!"
I still kind of feel that way even when I know it really was to save some bucks. And Phil Harris is still like a god unto me.
posted by Spatch at 3:52 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
No offense taken. I just felt snarked at; I assumed you were insinuating that since I didn't know The Lion King ripped off Kimba that I wouldn't have realized the ridiculously obvious influence of Hamlet. I took it personally, when I guess it wasn't. I will now step away from the thread. I'm obviously in some weird defensive mood right now.
posted by defenestration at 4:04 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by defenestration at 4:04 PM on April 8, 2009
Showgirls has basically the same plot as Star Wars.
posted by Artw at 4:05 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:05 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
You think that's bad? Check out what mightygodking discovered about Dreamworks.
posted by straight at 4:08 PM on April 8, 2009 [19 favorites]
posted by straight at 4:08 PM on April 8, 2009 [19 favorites]
And my reaction to this? It was not one of "how cheap" or "unoriginal."
It was "Cool! They're hiding secret stuff in the movie!"
I feel the same...as a kid I recognized that Sir Hiss and Kaa were the same, as were Baloo and Little John, or King John and the lion from Bedknobs and Broomsticks...and I thought it was just intentional continuity or consistency, and that I was meant to regard them as though they were actors appearing in multiple films.
posted by anazgnos at 4:10 PM on April 8, 2009 [11 favorites]
It was "Cool! They're hiding secret stuff in the movie!"
I feel the same...as a kid I recognized that Sir Hiss and Kaa were the same, as were Baloo and Little John, or King John and the lion from Bedknobs and Broomsticks...and I thought it was just intentional continuity or consistency, and that I was meant to regard them as though they were actors appearing in multiple films.
posted by anazgnos at 4:10 PM on April 8, 2009 [11 favorites]
A copy that isn't ebaum'ed by collegehumor on youtube.
And an older copy (or perhaps even the original?) that isn't reposted by some russian guy, on a french video site:
http://www.koreus.com/video/disney-ressemblance.html
(you did notice that they spoke french in the video, right?)
And an older russian article with more examples:
http://www.prodisney.ru/index.php?page=clones_en.php
And... (ok, I'll stop now).
posted by effbot at 4:11 PM on April 8, 2009
And an older copy (or perhaps even the original?) that isn't reposted by some russian guy, on a french video site:
http://www.koreus.com/video/disney-ressemblance.html
(you did notice that they spoke french in the video, right?)
And an older russian article with more examples:
http://www.prodisney.ru/index.php?page=clones_en.php
And... (ok, I'll stop now).
posted by effbot at 4:11 PM on April 8, 2009
Alright, before I step away I've gotta say that mightygodking exposé is quite funny.
<3>
posted by defenestration at 4:11 PM on April 8, 2009
<3>
posted by defenestration at 4:11 PM on April 8, 2009
To me the greater sin was the castration of the stories.. hell Walt told the fellas to throw out the book when making the Jungle Book because it was too depressing. I mean at that point why don't you just change some of the names and locations and one or two plot points and call it something else.
Fantasia remains the one Disney film from those days that I like
posted by edgeways at 4:12 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Fantasia remains the one Disney film from those days that I like
posted by edgeways at 4:12 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
It appears the film with the most established amount of "copying" is Robin Hood, which was made in 1973.
The source materials appear to be (in order of appearance):
Dumbo, 1941
Jungle Book, 1967
The AristoCats, 1970
Snow White, 1937
I don't know the movie they were comparing Jungle Book scenes with, but the last part is 101 Dalmations, 1961 and Sword in the Stone, 1963.
Really, I am not surprised that they used the same movements and modeling for the huge complicated dance numbers. It was actually pretty well done that they pulled together 3 or 4 different movies to make the one moonlit hollow scene for Robin Hood.
Hell for 101 and Sword, they probably didn't even see the others finished work, instead working off the same movement sketches.
Remember, Disney was using cutting edge technology to let him create really visually amazing pieces of work for the time. Old school Disney was the Pixar of it's time. They did some amazing things.
Also notice how the films with probably the most heavily copied animation are after Disney's death in 1966.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:13 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
The source materials appear to be (in order of appearance):
Dumbo, 1941
Jungle Book, 1967
The AristoCats, 1970
Snow White, 1937
I don't know the movie they were comparing Jungle Book scenes with, but the last part is 101 Dalmations, 1961 and Sword in the Stone, 1963.
Really, I am not surprised that they used the same movements and modeling for the huge complicated dance numbers. It was actually pretty well done that they pulled together 3 or 4 different movies to make the one moonlit hollow scene for Robin Hood.
Hell for 101 and Sword, they probably didn't even see the others finished work, instead working off the same movement sketches.
Remember, Disney was using cutting edge technology to let him create really visually amazing pieces of work for the time. Old school Disney was the Pixar of it's time. They did some amazing things.
Also notice how the films with probably the most heavily copied animation are after Disney's death in 1966.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:13 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
That bear was wiping his butt with the chicken.
Ah, well, it's medieval, Robin Hood, so that will be a Rabelais reference:
posted by Grangousier at 4:21 PM on April 8, 2009 [25 favorites]
Ah, well, it's medieval, Robin Hood, so that will be a Rabelais reference:
Afterwards I wiped my tail with a hen, with a cock, with a pullet, with a calf's skin, with a hare, with a pigeon, with a cormorant, with an attorney's bag, with a montero, with a coif, with a falconer's lure. But, to conclude, I say and maintain, that of all torcheculs, arsewisps, bumfodders, tail-napkins, bunghole cleansers, and wipe-breeches, there is none in the world comparable to the neck of a goose, that is well downed, if you hold her head betwixt your legs. And believe me therein upon mine honour, for you will thereby feel in your nockhole a most wonderful pleasure, both in regard of the softness of the said down and of the temporate heat of the goose, which is easily communicated to the bum-gut and the rest of the inwards, in so far as to come even to the regions of the heart and brains. And think not that the felicity of the heroes and demigods in the Elysian fields consisteth either in their asphodel, ambrosia, or nectar, as our old women here used to say; but in this, according to my judgment, that they wipe their tails with the neck of a goose, holding her head betwixt their legs, and such is the opinion of Master John of Scotland, alias Scotus.François Rabelais, Gargantua and Pantagruel, Book 1, Chapter 13
posted by Grangousier at 4:21 PM on April 8, 2009 [25 favorites]
You know what? I was being dense. I just realized that the joke was on Disney and their long history of retreading other people's ideas/work. I'm gonna go do something that doesn't involve thinking for a while. Heh. Sorry that I made it about me and thanks for not being a jerk about my (over)reaction.
/derail
posted by defenestration at 4:22 PM on April 8, 2009
/derail
posted by defenestration at 4:22 PM on April 8, 2009
Man, the production on Robin Hood was so cheap. I hear that poor rooster couldn't even afford cigars, had to smoke old stogies he had found. Gross.
posted by palliser at 4:30 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by palliser at 4:30 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
Whoever made this should never try to watch anime. Seriously, out of everything that's wrong with the world, that's what they picked out to complain about? These old films are still better drawn with smoother animation that pretty much anything made since.. and without the use of computers. And with great stories.
posted by rainy at 4:33 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by rainy at 4:33 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
You are so not going to believe what I just found out about Star Wars and this totally no-name Japanese film.
Well, at least you didn't say "Magnificent Seven".
posted by crataegus at 4:33 PM on April 8, 2009
Well, at least you didn't say "Magnificent Seven".
posted by crataegus at 4:33 PM on April 8, 2009
The trouble with ironic incorrectness is that it gets mistaken for actual incorrectness. Like when an homage gets confused with plagiarism. And to be honest, I never would probably have heard of Kurosawa if it wasn't for the Star Wars connection. Sad but true.
posted by GuyZero at 4:37 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by GuyZero at 4:37 PM on April 8, 2009
Lotta hate for this and defense of Disney. Which is weird, considering that how "disneyfied" is an insult.
Anyway, I've refused to watch Disney crap since they screwed up Little Mermaid. Same story over and over too.
posted by DU at 4:55 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Anyway, I've refused to watch Disney crap since they screwed up Little Mermaid. Same story over and over too.
posted by DU at 4:55 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
That was beautiful. I wish someone would make a snow-white style hand animation again.
That's exactly what John Lasseter is attempting to do with The Princess and the Frog.
posted by Atreides at 5:02 PM on April 8, 2009
That's exactly what John Lasseter is attempting to do with The Princess and the Frog.
posted by Atreides at 5:02 PM on April 8, 2009
Were any animated Disney Classic Animations actually original creations? From my quick review, I don't think so. Lots of public domain tales, others taken from more current-day stories. Animating them is the hard part (how long does it take you to make a smoothly-animated flip-book? Longer than you'd think, if it's anything more than a moving dot). Animating natural-looking movement takes a lot of time, so shortcuts are not just cheap "outs," but a simple way to get through the less-than-epic moments of the movie.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:08 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by filthy light thief at 5:08 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
mrzarquon, I think the one you're missing might be The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad (1949)?
Robin Hood is my favorite (well, tied for my favorite) Disney movie - lazy animation notwithstanding.
posted by naoko at 5:17 PM on April 8, 2009
Robin Hood is my favorite (well, tied for my favorite) Disney movie - lazy animation notwithstanding.
posted by naoko at 5:17 PM on April 8, 2009
I feel the same...as a kid I recognized that Sir Hiss and Kaa were the same, as were Baloo and Little John, or King John and the lion from Bedknobs and Broomsticks...and I thought it was just intentional continuity or consistency, and that I was meant to regard them as though they were actors appearing in multiple films.
I felt exactly the same way about how they re-used all the character models from Zelda: Ocarina of Time in Majora's Mask. It was like seeing familiar actors in new roles.
posted by straight at 5:20 PM on April 8, 2009
I felt exactly the same way about how they re-used all the character models from Zelda: Ocarina of Time in Majora's Mask. It was like seeing familiar actors in new roles.
posted by straight at 5:20 PM on April 8, 2009
> I think the one you're missing might be The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad (1949)?
I was thinking that also, but since I couldn't recall seeing a toad character (any other identifiable themes besides "woodland creatures in early 1900s garb"), I decided not to pin point it.
And Robin Hood was my favorite one also. Because it had Archery in it. However, I found the firefly lit meadow scene to be BOOORING and wanted to skip to the action scene at the games.
That being said, most new internal disney stuff is crap, I am glad with the acquisition of Pixar, they now have a crazy single minded megalomaniac at the helm again (in some ways, Jobs is the largest single shareholder I believe). Also they have people who love story telling and art working on projects again, so hopefully they become more Pixar than the other way around.
(and fwiw I think of "to disneyfy" is in regards to their theme parks and all in one corporate image paradise systems. Also the company that is Disney and that we grew up with is radically different than the company that created most of those classic films we've grown to love.)
posted by mrzarquon at 5:29 PM on April 8, 2009
I was thinking that also, but since I couldn't recall seeing a toad character (any other identifiable themes besides "woodland creatures in early 1900s garb"), I decided not to pin point it.
And Robin Hood was my favorite one also. Because it had Archery in it. However, I found the firefly lit meadow scene to be BOOORING and wanted to skip to the action scene at the games.
That being said, most new internal disney stuff is crap, I am glad with the acquisition of Pixar, they now have a crazy single minded megalomaniac at the helm again (in some ways, Jobs is the largest single shareholder I believe). Also they have people who love story telling and art working on projects again, so hopefully they become more Pixar than the other way around.
(and fwiw I think of "to disneyfy" is in regards to their theme parks and all in one corporate image paradise systems. Also the company that is Disney and that we grew up with is radically different than the company that created most of those classic films we've grown to love.)
posted by mrzarquon at 5:29 PM on April 8, 2009
straight: I felt exactly the same way about how they re-used all the character models from Zelda: Ocarina of Time in Majora's Mask. It was like seeing familiar actors in new roles.
Er, Majora's Mask was set in a parallel-universe Hyrule, so you were supposed to be seeing familiar people in different contexts. It was part of the general "things are vaguely wrong" atmosphere.
posted by flatluigi at 5:31 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Er, Majora's Mask was set in a parallel-universe Hyrule, so you were supposed to be seeing familiar people in different contexts. It was part of the general "things are vaguely wrong" atmosphere.
posted by flatluigi at 5:31 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
I thought it was just intentional continuity or consistency, and that I was meant to regard them as though they were actors appearing in multiple films.
Wow. That's brilliant. Fantastic, but brilliant.
posted by rokusan at 5:39 PM on April 8, 2009
Wow. That's brilliant. Fantastic, but brilliant.
posted by rokusan at 5:39 PM on April 8, 2009
A copy that isn't ebaum'ed by collegehumor on youtube.
If collegehumor didn't do the work on this, this post should be deleted.
posted by Pants! at 5:54 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
If collegehumor didn't do the work on this, this post should be deleted.
posted by Pants! at 5:54 PM on April 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
You think that's bad? Check out what mightygodking discovered about Dreamworks.
Oh dear God I hate that face. I want to slap that face. I don't care how "cute" the animal is. I will slap a damn koala.
posted by louche mustachio at 6:08 PM on April 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
I don't understand how anyone can rag on these disney animators. The amount of animation they hand drew on a weekly basis is staggering. From what I understand Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnson basically animated half of Jungle Book by themselves.
Now if people want to rag on newer disney creations then I can understand. It was all downhill after Beauty and the Beast.
posted by meta87 at 6:17 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Now if people want to rag on newer disney creations then I can understand. It was all downhill after Beauty and the Beast.
posted by meta87 at 6:17 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
wow I just realized i said from what i understand a few too many times... sorry i may not be entirely sober.
posted by meta87 at 6:18 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by meta87 at 6:18 PM on April 8, 2009
If you think this was cheating, you should have seen the old Marvel Iron Man/Hulk/Captain America/Thor/Submariner cartoons of the 60's where they just had still illustrations with some narration. (I loved them anyway).
posted by digsrus at 7:05 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by digsrus at 7:05 PM on April 8, 2009
Aaaaand ... now we all know why Pixar was created.
There is this.
And previously about Disney's Atlantis and an anime called Nadia. (Ain't It Cool)
posted by P.o.B. at 7:31 PM on April 8, 2009
There is this.
And previously about Disney's Atlantis and an anime called Nadia. (Ain't It Cool)
posted by P.o.B. at 7:31 PM on April 8, 2009
Oh well. I also loved Robin Hood - the songs in that one make the film.
posted by PuppyCat at 7:31 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by PuppyCat at 7:31 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
For absurd footage re-use, nothing beats Rocket Robinhood.
I feel so ashamed for the happiness that music fills me with. 'R' shows off the recycling at the end a bit. (It's also awesome)
posted by Decimask at 7:33 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
I feel so ashamed for the happiness that music fills me with. 'R' shows off the recycling at the end a bit. (It's also awesome)
posted by Decimask at 7:33 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
I was watching Robin Hood with my nephew when he was about 5, and I decided to harass him.
"Hey Pat, doesn't Little John look like Baloo from Jungle Book?"
"Of course Uncle Joe, they were played by the same person"
Of course he was right.
posted by rakish_yet_centered at 7:35 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
"Hey Pat, doesn't Little John look like Baloo from Jungle Book?"
"Of course Uncle Joe, they were played by the same person"
Of course he was right.
posted by rakish_yet_centered at 7:35 PM on April 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
Those same actors reunited, later, for a special TV appearance, as well.
posted by paisley henosis at 7:47 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by paisley henosis at 7:47 PM on April 8, 2009
Most of these films were made after Walt had died. He didn't approve of these methods and they were the direct result of the Xerox machine being introduced to the animation industry. The ENTIRE industry was plagued with this at the time, and to point the finger at Disney is just short sighted. It started off as a well intended attempt to shortcut some animation chores during the making of 101 Dalmations, which needed something to provide the artists with a way to alleviate the burden of actually drawing that many characters on the screen at once. When Walt passed away, he was no longer there to watch over the quality of the animated features. The artists starting really using this as a crutch and it is why most animation experts will point to that as the point their theatrical animated features went in the toilet for the most part until The Little Mermaid revived Disney's animation division. If you want to learn more about it, I'd highly suggest you pick up Leonard Maltin's Of Mice and Magic: A History of American Animated Cartoons. It a great read and tells the fascinating story of the history of animation in America.
posted by GavinR at 9:02 PM on April 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by GavinR at 9:02 PM on April 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
Also robin hood totally ripped off hamsterdance!!!
posted by aubilenon at 10:06 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by aubilenon at 10:06 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
I wonder also, if the deliberate reproduction of character movement helps "brand" Disney animated features, as if the animated dancing is "Disney-fied", and in a way, stamps the Disney logo on the end product.
When you see a film clip (animated or otherwise) of a woman spinning carefree around the room, with as kinetic and lively a movement of dress and hair as in Cinderella, perhaps your brain is more likely to make a Disney'ed association with said dancing.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:16 PM on April 8, 2009
When you see a film clip (animated or otherwise) of a woman spinning carefree around the room, with as kinetic and lively a movement of dress and hair as in Cinderella, perhaps your brain is more likely to make a Disney'ed association with said dancing.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:16 PM on April 8, 2009
> There is this.
Most of the point of storytelling is not telling a NEW story, but telling a story in a NEW WAY.
Also, the fact that the author didn't even decide to do his research for the WallE comparison, just going on the surface dystopian future with piles of garbage apparently. WallE's first 20 minutes was pretty much story boarded out by 2003, and Stanton was bouncing the idea around as early as 1994.
Most of reads "I found striking similarities between these films, obviously they most be influences." Possibly not just a reflection of common themes and stories for a lot of people. I mean Toy Story wasn't copying "The Christmas Toy" (Or the Tin Soldier), it was sourcing off the childhood imagination of what happens if your toys come to life (and/or being replaced by new baby/friend/peer, being old). Monsters Inc wasn't copying Little Monsters any more than it was looking at every child's fear of what is in the closet and unknown. Find Nemo was about a parent and child being separated (and the struggle of almost every parent with the notion that their child will someday leave them). Ratatouille is every movie ever about a kid trying to make his way in the big city in order to follow his passion. The stories work well, and better than what they were "copying", because they were better at retelling some of the most common fears and worries and desires that most people have.
posted by mrzarquon at 10:34 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Most of the point of storytelling is not telling a NEW story, but telling a story in a NEW WAY.
Also, the fact that the author didn't even decide to do his research for the WallE comparison, just going on the surface dystopian future with piles of garbage apparently. WallE's first 20 minutes was pretty much story boarded out by 2003, and Stanton was bouncing the idea around as early as 1994.
Most of reads "I found striking similarities between these films, obviously they most be influences." Possibly not just a reflection of common themes and stories for a lot of people. I mean Toy Story wasn't copying "The Christmas Toy" (Or the Tin Soldier), it was sourcing off the childhood imagination of what happens if your toys come to life (and/or being replaced by new baby/friend/peer, being old). Monsters Inc wasn't copying Little Monsters any more than it was looking at every child's fear of what is in the closet and unknown. Find Nemo was about a parent and child being separated (and the struggle of almost every parent with the notion that their child will someday leave them). Ratatouille is every movie ever about a kid trying to make his way in the big city in order to follow his passion. The stories work well, and better than what they were "copying", because they were better at retelling some of the most common fears and worries and desires that most people have.
posted by mrzarquon at 10:34 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
I wonder also, if the deliberate reproduction of character movement helps "brand" Disney animated features, as if the animated dancing is "Disney-fied", and in a way, stamps the Disney logo on the end product.
I think that is exactly it. Still fun to do the 'emperor has no clothes' number on it though :)
I'm just wondering what the original source material of this was...
posted by Chuckles at 10:43 PM on April 8, 2009
I think that is exactly it. Still fun to do the 'emperor has no clothes' number on it though :)
I'm just wondering what the original source material of this was...
posted by Chuckles at 10:43 PM on April 8, 2009
Most of the point of storytelling is not telling a NEW story, but telling a story in a NEW WAY.
Yeah, I get that. I didn't think that article was the greatest, but I don't think Pixar is a "newer and better" Disney. Just...newer.
Although I haven't seen Christmas Toy, so I couldn't verify or disavow it's a copy. But his description of it sounds awfully similar.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:45 PM on April 8, 2009
Yeah, I get that. I didn't think that article was the greatest, but I don't think Pixar is a "newer and better" Disney. Just...newer.
Although I haven't seen Christmas Toy, so I couldn't verify or disavow it's a copy. But his description of it sounds awfully similar.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:45 PM on April 8, 2009
naoko: Robin Hood is my favorite (well, tied for my favorite) Disney movie - lazy animation notwithstanding.
Eh - I go for Jungle Book. I don't really care about animation, and Disney storytelling never was that great (they take all of the guts out of the source material) but Jungle Book had Roger Miller and Louis Prima. What else could you ask for?
posted by koeselitz at 10:53 PM on April 8, 2009
Eh - I go for Jungle Book. I don't really care about animation, and Disney storytelling never was that great (they take all of the guts out of the source material) but Jungle Book had Roger Miller and Louis Prima. What else could you ask for?
posted by koeselitz at 10:53 PM on April 8, 2009
I thought it was just intentional continuity or consistency, and that I was meant to regard them as though they were actors appearing in multiple films.
OMG! I used to interpret it as being like when the Muppets would do their skits!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:09 PM on April 8, 2009
OMG! I used to interpret it as being like when the Muppets would do their skits!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:09 PM on April 8, 2009
"To me the greater sin was the castration of the stories.. hell Walt told the fellas to throw out the book when making the Jungle Book because it was too depressing. I mean at that point why don't you just change some of the names and locations and one or two plot points and call it something else."
Happened in opera librettos as well, and no one's complaining.
posted by archagon at 11:25 PM on April 8, 2009
Happened in opera librettos as well, and no one's complaining.
posted by archagon at 11:25 PM on April 8, 2009
Well this was the studio's first animated feature produced without Walt's involvement.
posted by sweetmarie at 11:25 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by sweetmarie at 11:25 PM on April 8, 2009
" In a recent interview, Don [Bluth] commented on the film. "I drew with great excitement, thinking how good it was to work on a Disney feature. When ROBIN HOOD was completed I decided it did not look the greatest of films. The heart wasn't in it. It had technique, the characters were well drawn, the Xerox process retained the fine lines so I could see all of the self indulgence of the animators, each one saying 'Look how great I am,' but the story itself had no soul." "
posted by sweetmarie at 11:30 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by sweetmarie at 11:30 PM on April 8, 2009
This is probably the definitive statement about Walt Disney to me, from the greatest film critic I know of:
The creative originality of A. Lamorisse was already apparent in Bim, le petit âne. Bim and perhaps Crin Blanc are the only two real children's films ever made. Of course there are others - although not as many as one would expect - that are suited to a variety of young age groups. The Soviet Union has made special efforts in this field but it is my feeling that films like Lone White Sails are already aimed at young adolescents. The attempts of J. Arthur Rank at specialized production in this area have failed both aesthetically and commercially. In fact, anyone wishing to set up a film library or to compile a series of programs for young children would be hard pressed to find more than a few shorts, of unequal merit, and a certain number of commercial films, among them some cartoons, the inspiration and the subject matter of which were sufficiently childlike; in particular, certain adventure films. It is not, however, a matter of specialized production, just of films intelligible to those on a mental level under fourteen. As we know, American films do not often rise above this level. The same is true of the animation films of Walt Disney.
It is obvious that films of this sort are in no way comparable to children's literature so called, and of which there is anyhow not a great deal... All the same, it is certainly not necessary to employ psychoanalysis to discover the delicious and terrifying profundities that are the source of the beauty of Alice in Wonderland and the fairy tales of Hans-Christian Andersen. These authors had a capacity for dreaming that was equal in kind and intensity to that of a child. There is nothing puerile about that imaginary world. It was a pedagogy that invented harmless colors for children, but to see the use they make of them is to find your gaze riveted on green paradises peopled with monsters.
The authors of genuine children's literature, then, are only rarely and indirectly educators... Jules Verne is perhaps the only one. They are poets whose imagination is privileged to remain on the dream wavelength of childhood.
That is why it is always easy to argue that their works are in a way harmful and really only suitable for grownups. If what we mean by that is that they are not edifying, this is true, but it is a pedagogic point of view, not an aesthetic one. On the other hand, the fact that adults enjoy them even perhaps more than children is a proof of their authenticity and value. The artist who works spontaneously for children has attained a quality of universality.
André Bazin, "The Virtues and Limitations of Montage," a review of Le Ballon Rouge, 1957. [Emphasis mine.]
posted by koeselitz at 11:48 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
The creative originality of A. Lamorisse was already apparent in Bim, le petit âne. Bim and perhaps Crin Blanc are the only two real children's films ever made. Of course there are others - although not as many as one would expect - that are suited to a variety of young age groups. The Soviet Union has made special efforts in this field but it is my feeling that films like Lone White Sails are already aimed at young adolescents. The attempts of J. Arthur Rank at specialized production in this area have failed both aesthetically and commercially. In fact, anyone wishing to set up a film library or to compile a series of programs for young children would be hard pressed to find more than a few shorts, of unequal merit, and a certain number of commercial films, among them some cartoons, the inspiration and the subject matter of which were sufficiently childlike; in particular, certain adventure films. It is not, however, a matter of specialized production, just of films intelligible to those on a mental level under fourteen. As we know, American films do not often rise above this level. The same is true of the animation films of Walt Disney.
It is obvious that films of this sort are in no way comparable to children's literature so called, and of which there is anyhow not a great deal... All the same, it is certainly not necessary to employ psychoanalysis to discover the delicious and terrifying profundities that are the source of the beauty of Alice in Wonderland and the fairy tales of Hans-Christian Andersen. These authors had a capacity for dreaming that was equal in kind and intensity to that of a child. There is nothing puerile about that imaginary world. It was a pedagogy that invented harmless colors for children, but to see the use they make of them is to find your gaze riveted on green paradises peopled with monsters.
The authors of genuine children's literature, then, are only rarely and indirectly educators... Jules Verne is perhaps the only one. They are poets whose imagination is privileged to remain on the dream wavelength of childhood.
That is why it is always easy to argue that their works are in a way harmful and really only suitable for grownups. If what we mean by that is that they are not edifying, this is true, but it is a pedagogic point of view, not an aesthetic one. On the other hand, the fact that adults enjoy them even perhaps more than children is a proof of their authenticity and value. The artist who works spontaneously for children has attained a quality of universality.
André Bazin, "The Virtues and Limitations of Montage," a review of Le Ballon Rouge, 1957. [Emphasis mine.]
posted by koeselitz at 11:48 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
(And this comment is in part intended to respond to the sentiment, expressed by someone earlier in this thread and often heard, that the 'real' Disney films are of indisputable quality, and that any flaws in those which are familiar to us today stem purely from the loss of old Walt himself. Note that André Bazin, who was a very thoughtful critic and who made it a point only to review films that he liked (he mentioned Disney here only in passing) felt that Walt Disney's films were formulaic and talked down to children by removing the mysterious and terrifying - in 1957. He wasn't talking about Robin Hood; when André Bazin criticized Walt Disney here, he only had Snow White and Bambi to go on - and I believe he's right.
posted by koeselitz at 11:57 PM on April 8, 2009
posted by koeselitz at 11:57 PM on April 8, 2009
)
posted by koeselitz at 11:57 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by koeselitz at 11:57 PM on April 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Er, kids LIKE repetition and patterns. Subconsciously, at least, they will have enjoyed recognising the patterns as much as the surprises elsewhere in the movies.
That said, Disney's version of Robin Hood was laaaazy. Not as lazy as some of the straight to DVD stuff they come out with now, but lazy nonetheless.
posted by MuffinMan at 12:32 AM on April 9, 2009
That said, Disney's version of Robin Hood was laaaazy. Not as lazy as some of the straight to DVD stuff they come out with now, but lazy nonetheless.
posted by MuffinMan at 12:32 AM on April 9, 2009
Walt Disney's films were formulaic and talked down to children by removing the mysterious and terrifying
Interesting theory.
Obvious counterargument: Pink. Fucking. Elephants.
posted by Pope Gustafson I at 1:27 AM on April 9, 2009 [2 favorites]
Interesting theory.
Obvious counterargument: Pink. Fucking. Elephants.
posted by Pope Gustafson I at 1:27 AM on April 9, 2009 [2 favorites]
And is Disney's The Black Cauldron a rip-off of The Lord of the Rings? Because it kind of looks like a pre-Bakshi attempt, albeit with a large dollop of fail.
posted by sneebler at 7:34 AM on April 9, 2009
posted by sneebler at 7:34 AM on April 9, 2009
Pope Gustafson, this whole thread was worth it for that link to Pink Elephants.
I have not seen Dumbo since I was a kid and I have forgotten how fucking phantasmagoric Pink Elephants is. It is the canonical example of the "Here's an excuse to step away from the Illusion of Life and just revel in the joy of making shit move" sequence that pretty much every animated film has. Except for Yellow Submarine which is pretty much nothing but.
Now I want to edit together all the "main character is in an altered state so we can really animate crazy stuff" sequences I can find and have them playing in a loop at a party.
posted by egypturnash at 8:01 AM on April 9, 2009
I have not seen Dumbo since I was a kid and I have forgotten how fucking phantasmagoric Pink Elephants is. It is the canonical example of the "Here's an excuse to step away from the Illusion of Life and just revel in the joy of making shit move" sequence that pretty much every animated film has. Except for Yellow Submarine which is pretty much nothing but.
Now I want to edit together all the "main character is in an altered state so we can really animate crazy stuff" sequences I can find and have them playing in a loop at a party.
posted by egypturnash at 8:01 AM on April 9, 2009
And is Disney's The Black Cauldron a rip-off of The Lord of the Rings? Because it kind of looks like a pre-Bakshi attempt, albeit with a large dollop of fail.
Well, any story similarities would probably be attributed to Lloyd Alexander deriving from Tolkien, right? But I suppose Disney could have ripped off Bakshi in other ways.
posted by lampoil at 8:22 AM on April 9, 2009
Well, any story similarities would probably be attributed to Lloyd Alexander deriving from Tolkien, right? But I suppose Disney could have ripped off Bakshi in other ways.
posted by lampoil at 8:22 AM on April 9, 2009
The Black Cauldron was a weak adaptation of what I consider to be a classic, fantastic children's fantasy novel that ranks up there with Tolkien. Alexander took more Welsh influence though I believe. At any rate, it was a weak adaptation, but I was at least glad to see a great book get a screen adaptation of some sort.
posted by GuyZero at 8:54 AM on April 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by GuyZero at 8:54 AM on April 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
I am disenchanted.
posted by aftermarketradio at 9:19 AM on April 9, 2009
posted by aftermarketradio at 9:19 AM on April 9, 2009
egypturnash: You may be interested in the Nostalgia Critic's Top 11 Nostalgic Mindfucks. It'll certainly give you some ideas at any rate.
posted by Pope Gustafson I at 12:09 PM on April 9, 2009
posted by Pope Gustafson I at 12:09 PM on April 9, 2009
As I understand it The Black Cauldron is very heavily drawn from The Mabinogion. The best Mabinogion-inspired book I've come across is The Owl Service, but again I'm straying a very long way from Disneyland...
posted by Grangousier at 12:25 PM on April 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 12:25 PM on April 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
Oh, geeze. The Gloop sequence from Raggedy Ann and Andy A friend and I invented a drinking game for that movie. It's very simple: Every time something tickles your fetish buttons, take a shot.
Everybody loses that game.
posted by egypturnash at 7:37 PM on April 16, 2009
Everybody loses that game.
posted by egypturnash at 7:37 PM on April 16, 2009
« Older Before there was Photoshop | Don't call me an actor. Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by hermitosis at 1:49 PM on April 8, 2009