The King and Us.
April 10, 2009 8:35 PM Subscribe
Royal Uproar? It started with the question of whether President Obama would bow (yt) to Queen Elizabeth. Then, during the G20 Summit, President Obama appeared to bow before King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. While some appreciate the gesture, conservatives are outraged. But the White House denies that there was any bow at all. What do you think about the greeting (yt)? Could it have been something else?
conservatives are outraged...
outraged at Obama's half-second bow, but were defensively apologetic when Bush held hands with Abdullah like they were choosing furniture for their Earl's Court love nest.
posted by Mayor Curley at 8:45 PM on April 10, 2009 [27 favorites]
outraged at Obama's half-second bow, but were defensively apologetic when Bush held hands with Abdullah like they were choosing furniture for their Earl's Court love nest.
posted by Mayor Curley at 8:45 PM on April 10, 2009 [27 favorites]
Is this all they got? Really?
I mean, I suppose it was bad they hitched their wagon to "The Dow drops every time he sneezes" meme, only so see it explode as his economic team got a handle on things early, but this?
Idiocy.
If Obama were to bow to Abdullah, it would be an unforgiveable insult - to the House of Saud. They know their place in the world. They know the President of the United States of America's place in the world. If he were to bow or ingratiate himself to King Abdullah, it would be out of mockery.
Leaning down for a kiss and a handshake is a compliment, a kind condescension. Groveling would be base sarcasm, and put a deep freeze on US-Saudi relations.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:45 PM on April 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
I mean, I suppose it was bad they hitched their wagon to "The Dow drops every time he sneezes" meme, only so see it explode as his economic team got a handle on things early, but this?
Idiocy.
If Obama were to bow to Abdullah, it would be an unforgiveable insult - to the House of Saud. They know their place in the world. They know the President of the United States of America's place in the world. If he were to bow or ingratiate himself to King Abdullah, it would be out of mockery.
Leaning down for a kiss and a handshake is a compliment, a kind condescension. Groveling would be base sarcasm, and put a deep freeze on US-Saudi relations.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:45 PM on April 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
Conservatives are outraged that Obama gets out of bed each day, too.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:48 PM on April 10, 2009 [36 favorites]
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:48 PM on April 10, 2009 [36 favorites]
Where were these people when Bush was giving the German PM an impromptu and totally unwanted shoulder rub?
posted by loquacious at 8:50 PM on April 10, 2009 [7 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 8:50 PM on April 10, 2009 [7 favorites]
"By bending over to show greater respect to Islam, the U.S. president belittled the power and independence of the United States," the Washington Times said in an editorial.
No. Becoming utterly, totally and embarassingly dependent on their oil has belittled the power and independence of the United States.
posted by PlusDistance at 9:00 PM on April 10, 2009 [28 favorites]
No. Becoming utterly, totally and embarassingly dependent on their oil has belittled the power and independence of the United States.
posted by PlusDistance at 9:00 PM on April 10, 2009 [28 favorites]
While some appreciate the gesture, conservatives are outraged.
All conservatives without exception.
posted by Krrrlson at 9:02 PM on April 10, 2009 [7 favorites]
All conservatives without exception.
posted by Krrrlson at 9:02 PM on April 10, 2009 [7 favorites]
Wow.
I couldn't care any less about this.
Talk about mountains over molehills.
posted by autobahn at 9:02 PM on April 10, 2009
I couldn't care any less about this.
Talk about mountains over molehills.
posted by autobahn at 9:02 PM on April 10, 2009
The U.S. fought (and won) the Revolutionary War so that its citizens would never again have to bow to royalty. It is considered a breach of protocol for an American to bow to any royal.
posted by Oriole Adams at 9:09 PM on April 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Oriole Adams at 9:09 PM on April 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
There was a polite convention not too long ago of bowing; gentlemen did that. Here I suspect there's just some cross-cultural problem because the bow isn't reciprocated; but Slap*Happy may well have it. Having been raised with a lot of Asian influence it looked to me polite on Obama's part and a bit snotty on Abdullah's.
posted by jet_silver at 9:11 PM on April 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by jet_silver at 9:11 PM on April 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
A bow is a pretty formal gesture of respect toward royalty, while a handshake is performed by peers.
That video shows Obama bending at the waist and shaking the king's hand. Maybe he meant to bow and stopped himself, maybe he overbalanced while leaning down to the much shorter man. I think your constitution did not spontaneously combust at that moment.
posted by maudlin at 9:14 PM on April 10, 2009 [6 favorites]
That video shows Obama bending at the waist and shaking the king's hand. Maybe he meant to bow and stopped himself, maybe he overbalanced while leaning down to the much shorter man. I think your constitution did not spontaneously combust at that moment.
posted by maudlin at 9:14 PM on April 10, 2009 [6 favorites]
I don't think he should have bowed....
But what bothers me far further is that now he has to lie about it...
Does he think we're stupid? Of course he bowed. Man up and admit it.
Lying about it is just insulting to sighted persons everywhere.
posted by Jfalways at 9:15 PM on April 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
But what bothers me far further is that now he has to lie about it...
Does he think we're stupid? Of course he bowed. Man up and admit it.
Lying about it is just insulting to sighted persons everywhere.
posted by Jfalways at 9:15 PM on April 10, 2009 [4 favorites]
(Well, fine, the Queen shakes hands, too, when she's not cuddling up to her new BFF. But at worst, that looked like an awkward hybrid movement, not a formally chosen deep bow. And I still don't smell anything burning.)
posted by maudlin at 9:17 PM on April 10, 2009
posted by maudlin at 9:17 PM on April 10, 2009
The criticism here not only doesn't gel with the pass Bush got for doing the same thing, but with what conservatives were criticizing Obama for just a few days ago.
Obama gives an inadequate gift to Prime Minister Brown?
OMG! WHY ISN'T HE ACCORDING OUR ALLIES WITH DUE RESPECT?! AMATEUR HOUR LOLOLOL
Michelle touches Queen Elizabeth slightly on the arm?
ZOMG HOW DARE SHE BRAZENLY DISRESPECT ROYALTY LIKE THAT WHAT A MORAN
But! Obama bows to a Saudi royal?
WTF WHY IS OUR PRESIDENT DEBASING AMERICA BY KOWTOWING TO THIS BOZO?! RAAAAAGE
I'm sure that if Obama hadn't bowed they'd be howling that our gas prices would be skyrocketing thanks to the snub.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:23 PM on April 10, 2009 [10 favorites]
Obama gives an inadequate gift to Prime Minister Brown?
OMG! WHY ISN'T HE ACCORDING OUR ALLIES WITH DUE RESPECT?! AMATEUR HOUR LOLOLOL
Michelle touches Queen Elizabeth slightly on the arm?
ZOMG HOW DARE SHE BRAZENLY DISRESPECT ROYALTY LIKE THAT WHAT A MORAN
But! Obama bows to a Saudi royal?
WTF WHY IS OUR PRESIDENT DEBASING AMERICA BY KOWTOWING TO THIS BOZO?! RAAAAAGE
I'm sure that if Obama hadn't bowed they'd be howling that our gas prices would be skyrocketing thanks to the snub.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:23 PM on April 10, 2009 [10 favorites]
The funny thing is, they have something of actual substance to fucking crucify Obama on -- all the appalling eavesdropping powers -- but...oh snap! That'd mean Bush was wrong about the exact same thing. So they're reduced to this. So much fail, GOP. So much fail.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:33 PM on April 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:33 PM on April 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
Thanks for that link, Krrrlson. I read LGF on occasion, just to get a sense of how that end of the spectrum is digesting recent events. I'm hardly a fan, but I do like how owner Charles Johnson is unafraid to shoot down stupid right-wing memes like this when warranted. He's also called out creation science and the "birther" people, if memory serves.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:34 PM on April 10, 2009
posted by Rhaomi at 9:34 PM on April 10, 2009
President George Washington would bow to guests at presidential receptions to avoid physical contact and the tradition lasted through the presidency of John Adams. Washington would rest one hand on a sword and the other holding a hat to avoid the remote possibility of anyone forcing a handshake! Thomas Jefferson ended the tradition of “bowing” by shaking hands when greeting people.posted by Zed at 9:36 PM on April 10, 2009 [5 favorites]
"conservatives are outraged"
Five year-olds get angry a lot too.
posted by bardic at 9:37 PM on April 10, 2009 [20 favorites]
Five year-olds get angry a lot too.
posted by bardic at 9:37 PM on April 10, 2009 [20 favorites]
The U.S. fought (and won) the Revolutionary War so that its citizens would never again have to bow to royalty. It is considered a breach of protocol for an American to bow to any royal.
From the "conservatives are outraged" link in the OP:
But protocol experts told FOX News that no rule exists on presidents bowing.
"To my knowledge, there is no rule at all," said Lloyd Hand who was chief of protocol for President Lyndon Johnson. "Protocol is 95 percent common sense judgment and 5 percent specific rules and that has nothing to do with bowing."
Also, FWIW, the Revolutionary War was fought over taxation, self-determination, not having soldiers quartered in your house, etc. The "bowing" thing? I believe that was a metaphor. (Unless the founding fathers had really bad back spasms.)
posted by PlusDistance at 9:41 PM on April 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
From the "conservatives are outraged" link in the OP:
But protocol experts told FOX News that no rule exists on presidents bowing.
"To my knowledge, there is no rule at all," said Lloyd Hand who was chief of protocol for President Lyndon Johnson. "Protocol is 95 percent common sense judgment and 5 percent specific rules and that has nothing to do with bowing."
Also, FWIW, the Revolutionary War was fought over taxation, self-determination, not having soldiers quartered in your house, etc. The "bowing" thing? I believe that was a metaphor. (Unless the founding fathers had really bad back spasms.)
posted by PlusDistance at 9:41 PM on April 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
Charles Johnson is unafraid to shoot down craves legitimacy and fears collateral damage from stupid right-wing memes like this
posted by dhartung at 9:44 PM on April 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by dhartung at 9:44 PM on April 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
The U.S. fought (and won) the Revolutionary War so that its citizens would never again have to bow to royalty.
Well now, that's a rereading of history Paine would have been proud of. The war was about representation in parliament, with the colonists several times declaring their loyalty to the monarch.
Preview: beaten to it, but still, needs to be said.
posted by Sova at 9:53 PM on April 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
Well now, that's a rereading of history Paine would have been proud of. The war was about representation in parliament, with the colonists several times declaring their loyalty to the monarch.
Preview: beaten to it, but still, needs to be said.
posted by Sova at 9:53 PM on April 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
Man, you know that your movement is in trouble when LGF is your voice of reason. Having Charles Johnson tell you that you're going overboard on rhetoric is like having Keith Richards tell you that maybe you're partying too hard. We're two months into Obama's first term and the right has already gone totally off its nut, how are they going to get through the next four to eight years?
posted by octothorpe at 9:55 PM on April 10, 2009 [17 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 9:55 PM on April 10, 2009 [17 favorites]
And did you hear? Michelle and Barack had a "Terrorist Fist Bump"!?!
Aside, I mean, really, is this what people are afraid of? That if we don't have our leader marching around chest puffed that the world won't respect us? That's the mentality of a 13 year old bully, whose entire notion of responsible manhood comes from action movies, death metal and gangster rap isolated from reality. What's next? Complaining about the lack of black ops funds for a presidential penis pump?
posted by yeloson at 10:09 PM on April 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
Aside, I mean, really, is this what people are afraid of? That if we don't have our leader marching around chest puffed that the world won't respect us? That's the mentality of a 13 year old bully, whose entire notion of responsible manhood comes from action movies, death metal and gangster rap isolated from reality. What's next? Complaining about the lack of black ops funds for a presidential penis pump?
posted by yeloson at 10:09 PM on April 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
Man, you know that your movement is in trouble when LGF is your voice of reason. Having Charles Johnson tell you that you're going overboard on rhetoric is like having Keith Richards tell you that maybe you're partying too hard. We're two months into Obama's first term and the right has already gone totally off its nut, how are they going to get through the next four to eight years?
They're not going to make it.
If you live in a very conservative area like I do, it's hard not to see that people are just a few months short of frothing at the mouth over this guy. I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime. What these people have is like a virus, and while they are the minority now, their virus will spread again.
I'm almost certain that Obama is doomed no matter what happens. He'll only serve one term and a very scared part of me wonders if he'll make it all the way through.
posted by dopamine at 10:10 PM on April 10, 2009
They're not going to make it.
If you live in a very conservative area like I do, it's hard not to see that people are just a few months short of frothing at the mouth over this guy. I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime. What these people have is like a virus, and while they are the minority now, their virus will spread again.
I'm almost certain that Obama is doomed no matter what happens. He'll only serve one term and a very scared part of me wonders if he'll make it all the way through.
posted by dopamine at 10:10 PM on April 10, 2009
BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:14 PM on April 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:14 PM on April 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
With Glenn Beck pouring a pretend can of gasoline on somebody on his show and shrieking "OBAMA WHY DON'T YOU JUST SET ME ON FIRE NOW AND GET IT OVER WITH" like he's fallen back off the wagon nothing surprises me anymore.
posted by blucevalo at 10:25 PM on April 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by blucevalo at 10:25 PM on April 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
Every time I think the right wing has finally bottomed out in the bat shit crazy over Obama department, they pick up the shovel and dig a little deeper. The Bushes, both Daddy and Dubya, were kissing Saudi ass even before they got in office, and they continued throughout their regimes. What a bunch of mindless idiocy.
posted by birdhaus at 10:26 PM on April 10, 2009
posted by birdhaus at 10:26 PM on April 10, 2009
As an American, I find the bow offensive. Shake hands as equals.
The old two wrongs make a right defense (Bush did it so Obama can too) is also crap. One can like and respect Obama or Bush and admit they make mistakes such as bowing. Just like Hilary made the mistake of kissing Arfafat's wife and Bush Sr. made the mistake of puking on the Japanese head of state. President Obama will succeed or fail not based on mistakingly bowing to some royalty.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:31 PM on April 10, 2009
The old two wrongs make a right defense (Bush did it so Obama can too) is also crap. One can like and respect Obama or Bush and admit they make mistakes such as bowing. Just like Hilary made the mistake of kissing Arfafat's wife and Bush Sr. made the mistake of puking on the Japanese head of state. President Obama will succeed or fail not based on mistakingly bowing to some royalty.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:31 PM on April 10, 2009
By posting this and commenting on this you let the conservatives frame the debate.
posted by jouke at 10:38 PM on April 10, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by jouke at 10:38 PM on April 10, 2009 [6 favorites]
I'm almost certain that Obama is doomed no matter what happens. He'll only serve one term and a very scared part of me wonders if he'll make it all the way through.
This is nothing compared to the frothing rage of the Clinton years.
posted by TungstenChef at 10:39 PM on April 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
This is nothing compared to the frothing rage of the Clinton years.
posted by TungstenChef at 10:39 PM on April 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
conservatives are outraged*
* Not actual outrage. Offer void in politically aligned administrations. Discontinue if you develop any of the following symptoms: thought rash, jerky knees, frothy mouth, palpitations, wheezing...
Largely played for the audience that might have been on the edge of believing Obama was a secret Muslim. I suspect almost everybody, including those outraged, knows this.
posted by weston at 11:03 PM on April 10, 2009
* Not actual outrage. Offer void in politically aligned administrations. Discontinue if you develop any of the following symptoms: thought rash, jerky knees, frothy mouth, palpitations, wheezing...
Largely played for the audience that might have been on the edge of believing Obama was a secret Muslim. I suspect almost everybody, including those outraged, knows this.
posted by weston at 11:03 PM on April 10, 2009
dopamine: "If you live in a very conservative area like I do, it's hard not to see that people are just a few months short of frothing at the mouth over this guy. I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime. What these people have is like a virus, and while they are the minority now, their virus will spread again.
I'm almost certain that Obama is doomed no matter what happens. He'll only serve one term and a very scared part of me wonders if he'll make it all the way through."
If you live in a liberal area like I do, it's hard not to see murals and posters of Obama's face, people wearing Obama t-shirts, and Yes We Did refrigerator magnets.
Is the reason you think Obama is doomed no matter what happens and that he will only serve one term and perhaps not even that because of what you're seeing in your local area? I have conflicted firsthand evidence!
Perhaps that isn't the best way to gauge the situation.
The polling still shows that a majority of Americans approve of the job Obama is doing. I will say, I was surprised by the amount of people polled that think the country is currently headed in the wrong direction, but progress takes time—things can't just improve overnight and sometimes unpopular decisions have to be made. If Obama lives up to his promise that he will listen to criticism and not blindly continue making the same mistakes, we will be in good shape. Personally, I'm very bothered by the bullshit the DOJ is pulling right now. Maybe this will be the first test as to whether criticism will actually be considered and taken into consideration. The president has four years to make a lot happen and set us on the right track. If he is successful, there is a very good chance that he will be reelected. He has already done a lot in the short amount of time he's been president—hopefully he can keep up the pace.
posted by defenestration at 11:05 PM on April 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
I'm almost certain that Obama is doomed no matter what happens. He'll only serve one term and a very scared part of me wonders if he'll make it all the way through."
If you live in a liberal area like I do, it's hard not to see murals and posters of Obama's face, people wearing Obama t-shirts, and Yes We Did refrigerator magnets.
Is the reason you think Obama is doomed no matter what happens and that he will only serve one term and perhaps not even that because of what you're seeing in your local area? I have conflicted firsthand evidence!
Perhaps that isn't the best way to gauge the situation.
The polling still shows that a majority of Americans approve of the job Obama is doing. I will say, I was surprised by the amount of people polled that think the country is currently headed in the wrong direction, but progress takes time—things can't just improve overnight and sometimes unpopular decisions have to be made. If Obama lives up to his promise that he will listen to criticism and not blindly continue making the same mistakes, we will be in good shape. Personally, I'm very bothered by the bullshit the DOJ is pulling right now. Maybe this will be the first test as to whether criticism will actually be considered and taken into consideration. The president has four years to make a lot happen and set us on the right track. If he is successful, there is a very good chance that he will be reelected. He has already done a lot in the short amount of time he's been president—hopefully he can keep up the pace.
posted by defenestration at 11:05 PM on April 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
*conflicting first hand evidence
posted by defenestration at 11:06 PM on April 10, 2009
posted by defenestration at 11:06 PM on April 10, 2009
As an American, I find the bow offensive. Shake hands as equals.
A bow is not necessarily a gesture of subservience or fealty. Other options include respect, gratitude, and potentially, simply a greeting. Watching the video in this article, it's fairly clear that if there is in fact a real bow at all it's more likely to fall in the later categories than the former.
Either that, or it was a reflex Obama naturally feels after years of conditioning by his secret masters, and he wasn't able to entirely suppress it when he encountered one of them during this public meeting.
posted by weston at 11:15 PM on April 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
A bow is not necessarily a gesture of subservience or fealty. Other options include respect, gratitude, and potentially, simply a greeting. Watching the video in this article, it's fairly clear that if there is in fact a real bow at all it's more likely to fall in the later categories than the former.
Either that, or it was a reflex Obama naturally feels after years of conditioning by his secret masters, and he wasn't able to entirely suppress it when he encountered one of them during this public meeting.
posted by weston at 11:15 PM on April 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
After just weeks of living in an Asian country, I was bowing while talking on the telephone.
posted by Soliloquy at 11:24 PM on April 10, 2009 [16 favorites]
posted by Soliloquy at 11:24 PM on April 10, 2009 [16 favorites]
Dubya was practically giving the King some tongue. Sheesh.
posted by gimonca at 11:30 PM on April 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by gimonca at 11:30 PM on April 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
Apparently bowing to a foreign ruler is not a deal breaker for U.S. diplomatic protocol.
John Adams on his first meeting with King George after we had won the revolutionary war gave the traditional three court bows upon entering the royal chamber. As much as he might have been aggrieved of the action it was just a formality of the times and he didn't assign it too much significance. It did not and does not mean the end of the world.
Another note; the venom and outright slander directed at the founding fathers in the broadsides and newspapers of the 1700s make fox news look like lightweights. This stuff is nothing new.
posted by gallois at 11:40 PM on April 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
John Adams on his first meeting with King George after we had won the revolutionary war gave the traditional three court bows upon entering the royal chamber. As much as he might have been aggrieved of the action it was just a formality of the times and he didn't assign it too much significance. It did not and does not mean the end of the world.
Another note; the venom and outright slander directed at the founding fathers in the broadsides and newspapers of the 1700s make fox news look like lightweights. This stuff is nothing new.
posted by gallois at 11:40 PM on April 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
Thanks for that link, Krrrlson. I read LGF on occasion, just to get a sense of how that end of the spectrum is digesting recent events. I'm hardly a fan, but I do like how owner Charles Johnson is unafraid to shoot down stupid right-wing memes like this when warranted. He's also called out creation science and the "birther" people, if memory serves.
He is going after Glenn Beck pretty hard too. LGF is currently the most sane right wing spot on the internet.
Gotta respect Charles Johnson for that, even if he is a bit nuts on other stuff. He is getting a ton of hate mail, the type usually reserved for DailyKos editors.
The rest of the right should follow his lead instead of following people like Beck, Limbaugh, or Bachmann if they want to win any upcoming elections.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 11:48 PM on April 10, 2009
News flash: Hard light right wing upset that America treats Arabs with respect. Bombs not Bows!
Can we just ignore them? They seem hysterical.
posted by cotterpin at 11:56 PM on April 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
Can we just ignore them? They seem hysterical.
posted by cotterpin at 11:56 PM on April 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
I disagree with formally bowing to royalty, as an American, as a matter of principle.
But I really don't much care in practice. Courtesy is courtesy. Probably why Bush held the Saudi's hand as well.
*yawn*
posted by Smedleyman at 12:11 AM on April 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
But I really don't much care in practice. Courtesy is courtesy. Probably why Bush held the Saudi's hand as well.
*yawn*
posted by Smedleyman at 12:11 AM on April 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
I want new political parties. Can we have them now please?
posted by saysthis at 12:33 AM on April 11, 2009
posted by saysthis at 12:33 AM on April 11, 2009
The fact that this is even getting enough traction to be worthy of mockery signals that the US and its people are probably doomed.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:15 AM on April 11, 2009
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:15 AM on April 11, 2009
The U.S. fought (and won) the Revolutionary War so that its citizens would never again have to bow to royalty. It is considered a breach of protocol for an American to bow to any royal.
Ah, conservatism. Confusing metaphor with reality once again.
posted by Sparx at 1:18 AM on April 11, 2009 [6 favorites]
Ah, conservatism. Confusing metaphor with reality once again.
posted by Sparx at 1:18 AM on April 11, 2009 [6 favorites]
I think the rest of the world was more amazed at Berlusconi's antics than the jovial attitude that the Obamas showed.
I can certainly see how an American president may not want to bow for royalty. That would actually be a pretty cool attitude.. but has any US President really ever refused to respect foreign royalty... or this just because in this particular instance it's a Saudi royal?
Also.. first they don't show enough respect to Queen Elizabeth II, and now they show too much respect at King Abdullah... The logical conclusion would be that American officials should just ignore royalty altogether.
posted by Harry at 2:01 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
I can certainly see how an American president may not want to bow for royalty. That would actually be a pretty cool attitude.. but has any US President really ever refused to respect foreign royalty... or this just because in this particular instance it's a Saudi royal?
Also.. first they don't show enough respect to Queen Elizabeth II, and now they show too much respect at King Abdullah... The logical conclusion would be that American officials should just ignore royalty altogether.
posted by Harry at 2:01 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
But did he kneel before Zod Saud?
FTFY Sorry
posted by MikeKD at 3:07 AM on April 11, 2009 [4 favorites]
FTFY Sorry
posted by MikeKD at 3:07 AM on April 11, 2009 [4 favorites]
I find all photo op meetings with heads of state in general and royalty in particular agonizingly stilted and forced. I fully expect one of them to turn around and announce plans to sail off in a big green balloon to consort with their brother wizards at any moment.
posted by nax at 3:23 AM on April 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by nax at 3:23 AM on April 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
Slight derail: the LGF page linked above features a large color ad for "muslima.com, the international muslim matrimonials site!" with a picture of a smiling woman in hijab. Now, that's targeted advertising!
posted by elgilito at 3:34 AM on April 11, 2009
posted by elgilito at 3:34 AM on April 11, 2009
The U.S. fought (and won) the Revolutionary War so that its citizens would never again have to bow to royalty.
Considering the American Revolution was more than 200 years ago don't you think it's time to let go of this irrational hatred for royals.
posted by IvoShandor at 6:05 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Considering the American Revolution was more than 200 years ago don't you think it's time to let go of this irrational hatred for royals.
posted by IvoShandor at 6:05 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Conservatives are annoyed at Obama. Who knew?
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:13 AM on April 11, 2009
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:13 AM on April 11, 2009
I don't think anyone should have to bow to royalty, and I'm not even an American. Even so, this is a non-story. It looks like he bowed to me, but so what? All this standing on ceremony national pride stuff is a load of shit. Move on, it doesn't matter.
posted by knapah at 6:26 AM on April 11, 2009
posted by knapah at 6:26 AM on April 11, 2009
Leaning down for a kiss and a handshake...
it's fairly clear that if there is in fact a real bow at all...
maybe he overbalanced while leaning down to the much shorter man.
Seriously? I mean, I know Obama's is pretty strong Kool-Aid, but...really? Y'all watched that video, and you're not sure whether or not he bowed?
I'm sorry. That's fucked up.
posted by cribcage at 7:16 AM on April 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
it's fairly clear that if there is in fact a real bow at all...
maybe he overbalanced while leaning down to the much shorter man.
Seriously? I mean, I know Obama's is pretty strong Kool-Aid, but...really? Y'all watched that video, and you're not sure whether or not he bowed?
I'm sorry. That's fucked up.
posted by cribcage at 7:16 AM on April 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
jouke: "By posting this and commenting on this you let the conservatives frame the debate."
Well yea. That's been their standard MO for a long time. If they don't have anything useful to say about the real issues, they make up bogus issues to argue about and then suck us gullible lefty types into debate every time.
posted by octothorpe at 7:22 AM on April 11, 2009
Well yea. That's been their standard MO for a long time. If they don't have anything useful to say about the real issues, they make up bogus issues to argue about and then suck us gullible lefty types into debate every time.
posted by octothorpe at 7:22 AM on April 11, 2009
Anyone discussing this is killing America.
posted by Nelson at 7:24 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 7:24 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
It is Saudi Arabian royalty that helped propel the Bush family into power.
Do these O'Reillys and Hannitys ever study their history?
posted by Zambrano at 8:21 AM on April 11, 2009
Do these O'Reillys and Hannitys ever study their history?
posted by Zambrano at 8:21 AM on April 11, 2009
I suspect it be might possibly be the case that some people will hate Obama no matter what, and are looking for any opportunity to criticize him.
posted by Daddy-O at 8:36 AM on April 11, 2009
posted by Daddy-O at 8:36 AM on April 11, 2009
The President, the Queen of England, and the King of Saudi Arabia are all heads of state, and thus are all peers. Of course, the Prime Minister of Canada needs to bow to the Queen and the King (if that is the appropriate gesture). The challenge is how does the PM greet the President? If the President combines the roles of "head of state" and "head of government", which are separate in many countries, does that make him the peer of both the PM and the Queen?
posted by djfiander at 8:45 AM on April 11, 2009
posted by djfiander at 8:45 AM on April 11, 2009
Seriously? I mean, I know Obama's is pretty strong Kool-Aid, but...
Flavor-Aid. The suicide-inducing beverage of choice of cult members is Flavor-Aid.
~THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR ACCURACY IN METAPHORS.~
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:48 AM on April 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
Flavor-Aid. The suicide-inducing beverage of choice of cult members is Flavor-Aid.
~THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR ACCURACY IN METAPHORS.~
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:48 AM on April 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
People bow before beating the crap out of each other, too. I was sorely disappointed that nothing so awesome ensued here.
posted by PsychoKick at 8:49 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by PsychoKick at 8:49 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Is there anything in the world as crazy as a batshitinsane conservative?
posted by five fresh fish at 9:03 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by five fresh fish at 9:03 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
The U.S. fought (and won) the Revolutionary War so that its citizens would never again have to bow to royalty.
True. But, there were some Founding Fathers who thought it important to incorporate the "trappings of monarchy" in the formation of a new Constitutional government. In some ways Washington carried himself in a "king-like" manner.
posted by ericb at 9:06 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
True. But, there were some Founding Fathers who thought it important to incorporate the "trappings of monarchy" in the formation of a new Constitutional government. In some ways Washington carried himself in a "king-like" manner.
“‘You are now a King, under a different name,’ James McHenry told Washington in March 1789 and wished that the president ‘may reign long and happy over us.’ It was not surprising that some people referred to Washington’s inauguration as a ‘coronation.’Pages 50 – 54, Revolutionary Characters by Gordon S. Wood (2006)
….In his public appearances he rode in a elaborately ornamented coach drawn by four and sometimes six horses, attended with four servants in the livery, followed by his official family in other coaches. ‘When he travels,’ declared a British observer, ‘it is in a very kingly style.’ In Washington’s public pronouncements he referred to himself like a king in the third person, and sat for dozens of state portraits, all modeled on those of European monarchs. Indeed much of the iconography of the new nation, including its civil processions, was copied from monarchical symbolism.
….If the president was to resemble a European monarch, what should his title be? Led by Vice President Adams, the Senate debated for a month in 1789 the proper title of the president. He could not be called simply, His Excellency, for governors of the states were called that. ‘A royal or at least a princely title, said Adams, ‘will be found indispensably necessary to maintain the reputation, authority, and dignity of the President.’ Only something like ‘His Highness, or, if you will, His Most Benign Highness’ would do. Eventually under Adam’s prodding a Senate committee reported the title ‘His Highness the President of the United States of America, and Protector of their Liberties.’ When Jefferson learned of Adams’s obsession with titles and the Senate’s actions, he could only shake his head and recall Benjamin Franklin’s now-famous characterization of Adam’s as someone who means well for his country, is always and honest man, and sometimes and in some things is absolutely out of his senses.
Perhaps in this respect not really out of his senses, for apparently Washington himself had initially favored for a title ‘His High Mightiness, the President of the United States and Protector of their Liberties’ But when Washington heard the criticism that such titles smacked of monarchy, he immediately changed his mind and was relieved when the House of Representatives under Madison’s leadership succeeded in fixing the simple title of Mr. President”
posted by ericb at 9:06 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Seriously? I mean, I know Obama's is pretty strong Kool-Aid, but...
Flavor-Aid. The suicide-inducing beverage of choice of cult members is Flavor-Aid.
~THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR ACCURACY IN METAPHORS.~
Actually, I'm pretty certain the concept of "drinking the kool-aid" as a metaphor for accepting the teachings and philosophy of a group comes not from Jonestown, but from Ken Kesey and Tom Wolfe.
At least, I hope that is where it comes from. Having Jonestown as a basis for that metaphor makes it into a much uglier thing.
Not that it's use isn't often intended in an ugly way already.
posted by hippybear at 9:34 AM on April 11, 2009
Flavor-Aid. The suicide-inducing beverage of choice of cult members is Flavor-Aid.
~THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR ACCURACY IN METAPHORS.~
Actually, I'm pretty certain the concept of "drinking the kool-aid" as a metaphor for accepting the teachings and philosophy of a group comes not from Jonestown, but from Ken Kesey and Tom Wolfe.
At least, I hope that is where it comes from. Having Jonestown as a basis for that metaphor makes it into a much uglier thing.
Not that it's use isn't often intended in an ugly way already.
posted by hippybear at 9:34 AM on April 11, 2009
Charles has finally changed the diaper he was wearing on 9/11/01? Good for him. I hope he remembered to wash his ass, too.
posted by trondant at 9:44 AM on April 11, 2009
posted by trondant at 9:44 AM on April 11, 2009
I wonder if conservatives are outraged that Obama hasn't taken his first vacation yet.
posted by troybob at 10:17 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by troybob at 10:17 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
LGF is currently the most sane right wing spot on the internet.
Seriously? I knew it'd gotten bad, but...
posted by brundlefly at 10:46 AM on April 11, 2009
Seriously? I knew it'd gotten bad, but...
posted by brundlefly at 10:46 AM on April 11, 2009
Actually, I'm pretty certain the concept of "drinking the kool-aid" as a metaphor for accepting the teachings and philosophy of a group comes not from Jonestown, but from Ken Kesey and Tom Wolfe.
That would be interesting if it were true. Tom Wolfe is supposedly W's favorite author, after all, so it's not outside the realm of possibilities. Yet every source on this seems to point in the same direction: Jonestown (see References). Comparing your ideological opponents with an apocolyptic death cult is one thing; to be factually inaccurate about it is just insult to injury. You might as well be like, "Oh, you Democrats are like those Branch Ralphians holed up in your compound in Lubbock, Texas" or something.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:09 AM on April 11, 2009
That would be interesting if it were true. Tom Wolfe is supposedly W's favorite author, after all, so it's not outside the realm of possibilities. Yet every source on this seems to point in the same direction: Jonestown (see References). Comparing your ideological opponents with an apocolyptic death cult is one thing; to be factually inaccurate about it is just insult to injury. You might as well be like, "Oh, you Democrats are like those Branch Ralphians holed up in your compound in Lubbock, Texas" or something.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:09 AM on April 11, 2009
I also saw that there was a Wolfe reference on the wiki page. But it seems the first people to make use of and popularize this phrase were talking about Jim Jones and his poisoned-Flavor-Aid victims.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:19 AM on April 11, 2009
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:19 AM on April 11, 2009
When Little Green Footballs stands out as a voice of reason, you know you've taken the bus to Crazytown.
posted by jonp72 at 11:21 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by jonp72 at 11:21 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Just like that UFO cult who suicided with change in their pockets, the Partridge Family.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:22 AM on April 11, 2009
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:22 AM on April 11, 2009
Marisa Stole the Precious Thing: Wow. Thank you for pointing me to those links. I'd really like to have a bit more background on the phrase than are provided on the two of those References links, but given the context of that Marion Barry quote, it is difficult to refute that the meaning is uglier than I had inferred based on my own worldview.
I guess I shall have to generate a more ugly reaction when I hear it in the future.
(That said, Kesey's kool-aid would be better all around.)
posted by hippybear at 11:25 AM on April 11, 2009
I guess I shall have to generate a more ugly reaction when I hear it in the future.
(That said, Kesey's kool-aid would be better all around.)
posted by hippybear at 11:25 AM on April 11, 2009
(That said, Kesey's kool-aid would be better all around.)
I think everyone at the Time's editorial staff could use a big, tall glass of Kesey's Kool-Aid. Might make the paper a lot more entertaining to read.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:31 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think everyone at the Time's editorial staff could use a big, tall glass of Kesey's Kool-Aid. Might make the paper a lot more entertaining to read.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:31 AM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Where did 'Drink the Kool-Aid' come from?
* -- note: "Flavor-Aid, 1929: The concept of powdered mixes was very popular in the 1920s, and led to the 1929 introduction [by Chicago-based Jel Cert] of the Flavor Aid® line of powdered soft drink mixes."
posted by ericb at 12:32 PM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
“Drink the Kool-Aid” has long been a part of the vernacular, used in both a positive and negative sense when we talk about following a mission or philosophy; that is, “buying the program” or “swallowing the party line.” But its origin lies in the 1978 tragedy at Jonestown, where over 900 members of Peoples Temple took poisoned fruit punch at the behest of their leader, Jim Jones.BTW -- I do recall an image in the recent documentary “Jonestown: The Life and Death of Peoples Temple” that showed a trunk containing boxes of cyanide, Flavor Aid and Kool-Aid. Nonetheless, it is believed that the majority of people were killed by the cyanide mixed with Flavor Aid at Jonestown.
For those connected personally to this horror, the ubiquitous “Kool-Aid” metaphor, often used frivolously, recalls an unending nightmare. One little known footnote: the fruit drink actually used at Jonestown on that day was a British product*, Flavor Aid. In Guyana, it was cheaper than Kool-Aid.
-Stephen Stept, writer and producer, “Witness to Jonestown”
* -- note: "Flavor-Aid, 1929: The concept of powdered mixes was very popular in the 1920s, and led to the 1929 introduction [by Chicago-based Jel Cert] of the Flavor Aid® line of powdered soft drink mixes."
posted by ericb at 12:32 PM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
The U.S. fought (and won) the Revolutionary War so that its citizens would never again have to bow to royalty.
Considering the American Revolution was more than 200 years ago don't you think it's time to let go of this irrational hatred for royals.
Homer: You couldn't be more wrong, Lisa. If I didn't have this gun, the King of England could just walk in here any time he wants, and start shoving you around. [pushing Lisa] Do you want that? [pushing her harder] Huh? Do you?
Lisa: [quietly indignant] No...
Homer: All right, then.
Marge: I'm sorry, Homer. No weapons.
-- "The Cartridge Family"
posted by Sangermaine at 12:44 PM on April 11, 2009
Considering the American Revolution was more than 200 years ago don't you think it's time to let go of this irrational hatred for royals.
Homer: You couldn't be more wrong, Lisa. If I didn't have this gun, the King of England could just walk in here any time he wants, and start shoving you around. [pushing Lisa] Do you want that? [pushing her harder] Huh? Do you?
Lisa: [quietly indignant] No...
Homer: All right, then.
Marge: I'm sorry, Homer. No weapons.
-- "The Cartridge Family"
posted by Sangermaine at 12:44 PM on April 11, 2009
Gotta respect Charles Johnson for that, even if he is a bit nuts on other stuff. He is getting a ton of hate mail, the type usually reserved for DailyKos editors.
The Mirror Speaks, The Reflection Lies
posted by homunculus at 2:41 PM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
The Mirror Speaks, The Reflection Lies
posted by homunculus at 2:41 PM on April 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
John Adams on his first meeting with King George after we had won the revolutionary war gave the traditional three court bows upon entering the royal chamber
Shortly after the peace was signed, the story began, the Revolutionary War hero Ethan Allen "had occasion to visit England," where he was subjected to considerable teasing banter. The British would make "fun of the Americans and General Washington in particular and one day they got a picture of General Washington" and displayed it prominently in the outhouse so Mr. Allen could not miss it. When he made no mention of it, they finally asked him if he had seen the Washington picture. Mr. Allen said, "he thought that it was a very appropriate [place] for an Englishman to Keep it. Why they asked, for said Mr. Allen there is Nothing that Will Make an Englishman Shit So quick as the sight of Genl Washington."-- One of Abraham Lincoln's favorite stories, from Team of Rivals
posted by kirkaracha at 3:26 PM on April 11, 2009 [7 favorites]
By posting this and commenting on this you let the conservatives frame the debate.
If this is how they "frame the debate", i.e. come across as a pack of psychotic loons, there's no reason for us not to "let" them "frame the debate" and hoist themselves by their own petard.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:49 PM on April 11, 2009
If this is how they "frame the debate", i.e. come across as a pack of psychotic loons, there's no reason for us not to "let" them "frame the debate" and hoist themselves by their own petard.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:49 PM on April 11, 2009
Conservatives need to abandon the party. Write it off as an unfortunate loss: the loons and hateful have somehow succeeded in making the party not about conservatism, but about religion and tribalism. Time to start a new Conservative party.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:18 PM on April 11, 2009
posted by five fresh fish at 9:18 PM on April 11, 2009
When did LGF change their logo? I may be misremembering, but didn't they have a big cartoon hippie and an Arab being all freaked out by the boogers being shot at them?
posted by heathkit at 3:08 AM on April 12, 2009
posted by heathkit at 3:08 AM on April 12, 2009
Good catch, heathkit, I'd forgotten about that. I was going to track it down via the Wayback Machine, but Johnson has the site blocked, oddly enough. Here's the old logo, from a third-party site.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:26 AM on April 12, 2009
posted by Rhaomi at 7:26 AM on April 12, 2009
Can you really blame LGF for not wanting evidence of their batshitinsanity kept around? Nothing odd about blocking Wayback Machine at all. Commonsense, more like.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:49 AM on April 12, 2009
posted by five fresh fish at 10:49 AM on April 12, 2009
« Older How Star Wars Changed the World | Discovering bacteria's amazing communication... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by dibblda at 8:40 PM on April 10, 2009