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"I pushed him off because jumpers like Chen are very selfish"
May 24, 2009 10:12 AM   Subscribe

Lai Jiansheng was fed up with a suicide jumper in the Chinese provence of Guangzhou that was blocking traffic, so he climbed up to where Chen Fuchao was and gave him a push onto an air mattress.

This Chinese news source has some photos of the event. There is video of the push here, but unfortunately there's no sound.
posted by The Devil Tesla (63 comments total) 5 users marked this as a favorite

 
Traffic around the bridge was stopped for five hours while officers tried to coax Mr Chen to safety.

I have to admit, I have some sympathy with Lai's point of view on this one. Why didn't the officials wrestle the guy to safety in that amount of time?
posted by orange swan at 10:18 AM on May 24, 2009


There were some reports that Mr. Lai was mentally ill and on the way to the hospital to pick up his meds.
posted by cmgonzalez at 10:19 AM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


lai jiansheng is an asshole
posted by pyramid termite at 10:21 AM on May 24, 2009 [6 favorites]


Why didn't the officials wrestle the guy to safety in that amount of time?

You're dealing with an extremely delicate case. There are various reasons why the authorities try and talk people like this down. One being if they rush the guy, he might just panic and fall or jump. Usually, these types of situations lasting a while aren't uncommon.
posted by cmgonzalez at 10:22 AM on May 24, 2009


"I'm not saying it's right...but I understand." - Chris Rock
posted by stifford at 10:23 AM on May 24, 2009 [14 favorites]


I guess wanting someone to get the hell out of your way isn't selfish, then
posted by Talanvor at 10:31 AM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


Reminds me of Lethal Weapon. Except for that Riggs was a cop. And Lethal Weapon was a movie.
posted by litterateur at 10:33 AM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


There are various reasons why the authorities try and talk people like this down. One being if they rush the guy, he might just panic and fall or jump.

...or attack you. When I was an EMT, we were taught to wait for the police when responding to a suicide attempt, on the assumption the guy would be irrational, armed, and pissed right the fuck off.
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:34 AM on May 24, 2009


It seems like that bridge needs a few fences to keep off the amateur cliff divers. It would have to be cheaper than stopping traffic for hours every time while an ambulance crew and police team wait around the bottom.
posted by pracowity at 10:34 AM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


Well, he at least crystallized the conflict between individual and community. We'll award this one to community.
posted by Aetius Romulous at 10:37 AM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


lai jiansheng is an asshole

We should start spraypainting this on highway overpasses everywhere.
posted by sourwookie at 10:40 AM on May 24, 2009 [6 favorites]


We should start spraypainting this on highway overpasses everywhere

Careful, the next lai jiansheng might push you off...
posted by stifford at 10:55 AM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


Anyone with greater knowledge of China want to speculate on how screwed the guy with the 2 million yuan debt was before this stunt? Since it's China, I doubt you can just declare bankruptcy.
posted by Mitrovarr at 10:56 AM on May 24, 2009


I'm guessing that Lai saw there was an inflatable safety pad below and figured, "WTF, he gets to go off the bridge, traffic clears up, everyone is happy, why not?" It has a certain demented logic to it.

The real issue is why was the original jumper able to up there and why was Lai able to get up there later? Why wasn't access sealed off, if not at first, especially afterwards?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:02 AM on May 24, 2009


I know someone who is mentally ill or who has just snapped because of cumulative stressors isn't amenable to reason. I understand that there were logistical difficulties in getting this man to safety, and of course his safety should be the first consideration. But this situation continued for five hours, and the airbag below wasn't even fully inflated. Perhaps there was room for improvement in how this situation was handled by the authorities.
posted by orange swan at 11:08 AM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


All I got to say is, when a 66 year old man can bust through your police line, I have very little faith in your police force altogether. Either that, or he's descended from one of the Ten Tigers of Canton and he would have kicked your ass either way.
posted by yeloson at 11:09 AM on May 24, 2009 [11 favorites]


The bridge has gained a macabre reputation, attracting at least 12 would-be suicide jumpers since the start of April, according to the China Daily report.
None of the 12 has jumped, although each has held up traffic for several hours, it said.


12 incidents in less than two months, each time holding up traffic for hours, but with no-one actually ever jumping? Cripes, that's more than once a week! I'm not saying Lai was right to push Chen off, but I can understand why he would think Chen was just the latest in a long string of attention-seeking troublemakers, and that pushing Chen off would deter future "jumps".
posted by PsychoKick at 11:12 AM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm guessing that Lai saw there was an inflatable safety pad below

That's what I'd dearly like to know. Did the article tell us? I did not RTFA. :)
posted by uncanny hengeman at 11:25 AM on May 24, 2009


Is it just me, or is that bridge not very high?
posted by creasy boy at 11:28 AM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm confused, don't bridge-jumpers usually jump into the water (or whatever the bridge is over)? Why was the inflatable cushion on the road?
posted by desjardins at 11:32 AM on May 24, 2009


the plot's quite confused isn't it? where's the screenwriter?
posted by infini at 11:35 AM on May 24, 2009


There's an overpass that I drive under all the time near my house. About 6 or 7 years ago there was suicidal guy that was threatening to jump off of it onto the highway below. Of course the whole place was barricaded off and the cops were dealing with the guy for a number of hours. The police thought the appropriate course of action was to shoot the guy with a tazer while he was standing on the ledge of the overpass, causing him to fall off and die. I guess they just wanted to get that shit over with, I don't really know. I think about that every time I drive under that thing.
posted by dead cousin ted at 11:47 AM on May 24, 2009


Yea, there're no secure police lines in china. They count on the communal spirit of the people to gather round and protect the area... or to stand and gawk, whichever.

Oh, and for a feelgood version of this, there was a police woman in Changchun (the north) who saved a girl as she was jumping off the building. Bad. Ass.

god, I love the Chinese
posted by FuManchu at 11:52 AM on May 24, 2009 [3 favorites]


That's what I'd dearly like to know. Did the article tell us? I did not RTFA. :)

It's in the video :P
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:05 PM on May 24, 2009


The first I read about this didn't include the fact that the jumper was pushed more or less safely onto a giant air cushion. Watching the video, I am no longer outraged.

I still don't think one should push people onto giant air mattresses, but how much time had this jumper wasted? Five hours multiplied by how many people stuck waiting for him? If it was a couple thousand, that's more than a solid year of other people's time he's "selfishly" stolen. I feel bad for the jumper's situation, but completely understand the pusher's impulse.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 12:10 PM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


> Oh, and for a feelgood version of this, there was a police woman in Changchun (the north) who saved a girl as she was jumping off the building. Bad. Ass.

As feel-good as it is, I have to second the end-story comment in that first link: suspiciously well-documented with some very decent quality equipment.
posted by Decimask at 12:16 PM on May 24, 2009


Goddamn the Pusher Man.
posted by mazola at 12:23 PM on May 24, 2009 [10 favorites]


He didn't even give him a chance to take off his shoes.
posted by Stylus Happenstance at 12:26 PM on May 24, 2009 [8 favorites]


lai jiansheng is an asshole

What an awful human being.
posted by Stephen Elliott at 12:37 PM on May 24, 2009


As feel-good as it is, I have to second the end-story comment in that first link: suspiciously well-documented with some very decent quality equipment.
posted by Decimask at 12:16 PM on May 24 [+] [!]


A reporter and photojournalist arrived on-scene around the same time as the cops with a DSLR and 200mm lens. That can't be THAT unusual, right?
posted by basicchannel at 12:40 PM on May 24, 2009


The first I read about this didn't include the fact that the jumper was pushed more or less safely onto a giant air cushion.

Similar story here. The headline link I clicked on yesterday was all salacious, screaming MURDER! And the last sentence sort of went "oh yeah, and he landed on an air mat." Bastard mainstream media.

Neither here nor there, but I find nearly all news stories emanating from China frustratingly low on detail.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 12:44 PM on May 24, 2009


Completely and utterly appalling. When did we become so intolerant of any inconvenience?
posted by kookaburra at 12:45 PM on May 24, 2009


A reporter and photojournalist arrived on-scene around the same time as the cops with a DSLR and 200mm lens. That can't be THAT unusual, right?
It's not. I can't speak for China, but my photojournalist friends have good connections inside the police, and are usually the second to know.
posted by _dario at 12:49 PM on May 24, 2009


Yes, I also appreciate MeFi for bringing the important air mattress detail to light. Yahoo headlines yesterday were pretty misleading.
posted by stevil at 12:58 PM on May 24, 2009


I thought I read that Lai was a long-time mental patient, and was actually on his way to pick up his meds when he pushed the guy off the ledge.

Moral of the story: crazies don't mix well.
posted by jayder at 1:05 PM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


Hell, given the scenario - twenty foot fall onto air cussion - the police could have done the same, hours earier, to assure that he didn't leap away onto pavement.
posted by longsleeves at 1:07 PM on May 24, 2009


suspiciously well-documented

Dude. Really? You're assuming you're not dealing with morons here. Any sort of conspiracy about that event would need to answer for: (a) the girl willing to dangle without a rope (b) the officer willing to risk getting pulled down (c) that the Chinese police propaganda unit are competent enough to pull it off. Particularly that last one. You heard of the creepy JingJing and ChaCha? That was the best propaganda the police had created to date.
posted by FuManchu at 1:07 PM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


But this situation continued for five hours, and the airbag below wasn't even fully inflated. Perhaps there was room for improvement in how this situation was handled by the authorities.

Fully inflated airbag = bounce off
posted by longsleeves at 1:15 PM on May 24, 2009 [3 favorites]


lai jiansheng is an asshole

Yeah, fuck that guy for saving that other guy's life.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:19 PM on May 24, 2009


This is the sort of thing that robots are good for.
posted by b1tr0t at 1:23 PM on May 24, 2009


Don't push me cuz I'm close to the edge.
posted by stinkycheese at 1:47 PM on May 24, 2009 [5 favorites]


My God what a story.

Lai first greeted Chen with a handshake, and then he pushed him off the bridge.

... exclaiming "SIKE!" as he did so.

Chen fell 8 meters onto a partially-inflated emergency air cushion, damaging his spine and elbow in the fall.

"I pushed him off because jumpers like Chen are very selfish. Their action violates a lot of public interest," Lai said.


Hear, hear. Someone make this guy a cape and a shirt with a big red "L" on the front. He's like the Chinese Joe the Plumber.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:55 PM on May 24, 2009


A reporter and photojournalist arrived on-scene around the same time as the cops with a DSLR and 200mm lens. That can't be THAT unusual, right?

No, except that the shots are taken from several quite different angles, and all the people involved (jumper included!) are surprisingly nattily dressed. I don't know, as I have never been to China, but are the police usually so elegant and good-looking?

Also, I have a DSLR with a 300mm lens. I realise that I'm but an amateur, but I certainly wouldn't be able to get shots of such good quality without some planning. And a tripod.

god, I love the Chinese
posted by FuManchu


Eponysterical?
posted by Skeptic at 2:02 PM on May 24, 2009


Completely and utterly appalling. When did we become so intolerant of any inconvenience?

I don't know about people in general, but the people who need to cross that Guangzhou bridge every day probably started losing their patience long before the 12th non-jumping "jumper" did the same thing on the same bridge within two months. When every week there's another one hanging with the pigeons in the girders while the crowd watches and traffic piles up, people are going to start thinking "Not again! Just jump, for Christ's sake!" to themselves, and a guy on (or off?) medication is going to act on his impulse.
posted by pracowity at 2:04 PM on May 24, 2009 [3 favorites]


Saw this a few hours ago on Danwei.

Though the man landed on an air mattress, he suffered multiple bone fractures and was said to be in critical condition in the hospital.

Yikes.

uncanny hengemen: I find nearly all news stories emanating from China frustratingly low on detail.

That's because there's no money in translating the whole articles. :) Here's some choice selections from Danwei's source link on 163.com

此时,在警员的多番劝说后,跳桥者依然坚持坐在铁架上。正当大家都束手无策的时候,一名老伯走了过来,向警方自荐要去劝说跳桥者。

At this point, after repeated pleas from the police, the jumper was still on the rail. But just when it seemed like the situation was stalemated, a passerby, and old man, asked permission from the police to go up and try to persuade the jumper to come down.


So that's how he got up there. More...

“气垫未充满气” 跳桥者摔折骨

跳桥者先掉到气垫床上,又滑落地上,警察立即拥上,两人合力拽着他的双臂,拖起身来。

“气垫床没有充满气。” 躺在广州市红十字会医院病床上的陈富超抱怨说,想不到以防万一、保护性命的气垫床竟然是“一躺就干瘪”的。

他回忆道,自己从空中掉下来后,根本不记得被送到医院的细节,应该是休克过去了。经确诊,陈富超手肘骨折、腰椎骨折。

Jumper Suffers Broken Bones Because Air Mattress Not Full

The jumper fell first onto the air mattress, then slid to the ground, where two police officers immediately lifted him into a standing position from under his shoulders.

"The air mattress wasn't full", complains Chen Fuchao from his bed in the Guangzhou City Red Cross Hospital. To both prevent accidents and save lives, he says, he'd never imagined the air mattress would "flatten the instant someone lays on it."

He doesn't recall anything after the fall and doesn't remember the trip to the hospital. He assumes he made the trip in shock. According to doctors' diagnosis, Chen Fuchao's elbow and lubar vertebrae are broken.


Youch!

老人可能曾多次见义勇为

有知情者透露,这位推人的老伯与几年前的一位见义勇为者长得十分相似。2006年年初,有老人在广州洛溪大桥的人行道栏杆上,将一名用匕首对准自己脖颈、造成洛溪大桥封闭堵塞的男子一把抱下。

据非官方的资料统计,那位老人曾经3次从洛溪桥上救下轻生者。

Old Man Possibly Former Anonymous Hero

Witnesses say that the pusher strongly resembles a "civic hero" from several years before. In early 2006, at Guangzhou's Luoxi Bridge, a senior citizen rescued (pulled down?! not sure if they're talking about the dagger or what)) a young man holding a dagger to his own throat, and who was also causing bridge closure and traffic jams.

Unofficial accounts say this senior citizen prevented 3 suicide attempts at Luoxi Bridge.


what

And here's some background and an interview with Chen Fuchao from the same link.

跳桥男:跳楼不成转念跳桥
Jumper: Jumping off a Building Didn't Work, So I Tried a Bridge

自言被拖欠数百万施工费


跳桥者名叫陈富超,今年32岁,是一名来自化州的包工头。
The jumper, named Chen Fuchao, is 32, and comes from Huazhou's Baogongtou (some rural subdivision of Huazhou).

据他说,他于2006年9月与广州富利房地产公司建安分公司人员龙某签订了科学城附近标语山庄六期D、H栋的施工联营合同。合同金额1200万元,除去管理费等200万元,他应该拿到约1000万元。但在拿到550万元之后,其余450万元却被龙某扣下,一直没有拿到。
According to him, in September of 2006, he signed a joint construction contract for the advertised "6th-Stage Mountain Village" project's D and H buildings (lit: advertising/mountain/village/6-period; 山庄六期 seems to be the name of a residential complex) near Science City, with a certain Mr. Long, an employee of Jian'an Company, owned by Guangzhou's Fuli Real Estate. The contracted amount was 12 million yuan, but excluding management fees, was 2 million. He was to receive 10 million of the contract, but after receiving only 5.5 million, the remaining 4.5 million was "docked" by Mr. Long, and Chen has yet to receive it.

在市红会医院的病床上,全身动弹不得的陈富超向记者讲述了跳桥前后的一些想法——
In his bed at the Red Cross Hospital, the unmoving Chen Fuchao explained his thoughts before and after the bridge jump to this journalist.

问:是什么原因让你下决心要去跳桥?
Q: What caused you to decide to jump off the bridge?

陈:我投入的资金都是借回来的。在家里,供货的债主已经追到了我母亲家。去年年三十晚,我就是一个人在广州过的,根本不敢回家,我已经很久没有见过老婆和三个孩子了。我确实感到走投无路了。
Chen: The money I invested was all borrowed. Back home, the supplier's creditor (more likely collector, but he's not exactly lucid, and man, if you think the NYT's editing is bad...) has already tracked my mother's family down. I spent New Year's last year alone in Guangzhou, I didn't dare return home. It's already been a long time since I've seen my wife and three kids. I really felt like I had no way out.

问:选择过其他申诉方式吗?
Q: Have you tried any other methods?

陈:3月11日下午,我爬上了欠款的标语山庄D栋28层,想着如果拿不回钱,也回不了家,不如死了算了。最后萝岗区政府人员把我劝下来,并承诺帮我解决,但之后就没有下文了。
Chen: On the afternoon of March 11th, I climbed up to the 28th floor of "Mountain Village's building D, the building I owe money for. I thought, if I can't get my money back, and can't go home, then I'm better off dead and not thinking about it. Luogang District government officials talked me down and promised to help me deal with this, but I didn't see any results from them afterward.

问:为什么选择海珠桥?
Q: Why did you choose Haizhu Bridge?

陈:我打听了一段时间,决定选择海珠桥,因为这里比较容易爬,也可以引起最大的关注。
Chen: I asked around for awhile, and I chose Haizhu Bridge because it was fairly easy to climb, and would get the most attention.

问:你原打算一直待在上面不下来吗?
Q: Was your original plan to climb up and stay there?

陈:我不是真的想这样闹,也不想闹这么久。起初,我只是要求警察把欠钱的老板叫来,让他当面承诺还钱,我就会下来。但他们始终说“叫不了”,所以我才一直不肯下来。
Chen: I really didn't want to cause this kind of commotion, and definitely not for this long. At first I just wanted the police to find Mr. Long (lit: "the boss who owes"/欠钱的老板, could be someone else, but I'm guessing Long) and bring him there, to make him promise then and there to return my money, and then I'd come down. But their answer through the whole ordeal was "we can't bring him", so I didn't come down.

陈富超根本不记得如何被送进医院,估计当时已因疼痛而处于半休克状态。他告诉记者,希望能够依法追究推人老伯的责任,并对需要自付医疗费用表示不满。
Chen Fuchao doesn't remember at all how he got to the hospital, but he assumes the pain of his fall sent him into shock. He told this journalist he plans to seek legal redress from the senior citizen, and that he is not at all happy that he is required to pay his medical bills on his own.
posted by saysthis at 2:44 PM on May 24, 2009 [25 favorites]


You got questions, ask away. I'm looking for an excuse not to work on some things. :)
posted by saysthis at 2:46 PM on May 24, 2009


Lai Jiansheng, 66, said he was fed up with the desperate man's "selfish activity" which caused huge traffic jams in Guangzhou, southern China.

Oh so he's from the internet.
posted by nola at 2:49 PM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


"The air mattress wasn't full", complains Chen Fuchao from his bed in the Guangzhou City Red Cross Hospital.

Something about this complaint of his is making me laugh hysterically.
posted by orange swan at 2:58 PM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


All I got to say is, when a 66 year old man can bust through your police line, I have very little faith in your police force altogether.

they're all tired out from protecting that torch
posted by pyramid termite at 3:00 PM on May 24, 2009


I have never been to China, but are the police usually so elegant and good-looking?

The Chinese links say that dude was up there for 4 hours. He climbed up at 7 in the morning and stopped traffic at a major bridge during rush hour in a city of 4 million. The cops knew there'd be cameras, and I've seen 'em look pretty snazzy when they want to.

Also, Chinese people...well, they don't exactly wear Western clothes the way you do. Lots of earthen tones, and definitely some unconventional accessorizing and cuts. There's a fashion logic behind it though, because they all seem to do it the same way. It's ugly as sin sometimes, but it's generally not shabby. Just, y'know, a very different fashion sense at work.
posted by saysthis at 3:02 PM on May 24, 2009


he is not at all happy that he is required to pay his medical bills on his own.
What's the medical situation in China? Private health insurance?

he plans to seek legal redress from the senior citizen

Of course. Man, what an asshole. Surely there's a legal way for him to solve his financial dispute rather than faking suicide to try to get police involved?
posted by graventy at 3:13 PM on May 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


Actually, saysthis, I think he's talking about the policewoman who saved the falling woman, linked upthread.
posted by graventy at 3:14 PM on May 24, 2009


posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing Someone make this guy a cape and a shirt with a big red "L" on the front. He's like the Chinese Joe the Plumber.

Possible name: Lai The Pusher.
posted by mattdidthat at 3:16 PM on May 24, 2009


intervening in a suicide attempt, as we all know, magically transforms the would-be dead person into a valuable and right-minded citizen. shoving these miserable assholes off of buildings and bridges should make the act a bit less romantic and turn it into a serious effort instead of a plea for attention.
posted by kitchenrat at 3:36 PM on May 24, 2009


Oh so he's from the internet.

I was just thinking something along those lines. "Huh. I wonder if he's the type who'd call the mentally and emotionally desperate 'miserable assholes' or something."
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:40 PM on May 24, 2009


More points from the same link:

*Lai snuck around the police barrier and scaled the bridge in less than a minute, which is why he was able to evade the four guards equipped with 1.5 meter hooks to restrain climbers. Because he was moving quickly, they were unable to grab him without putting him in danger, they say.

*The dude in charge of the safety pad claims it was fully inflated, and that it failed because Chen fell on the side. They only work effectively if you fall in the middle.

*Chen will be given 10 days of "safety detention" for public disturbance, and a lawyer thinks Lai will be civilly liable for medical damages.

*There were 68 "jumpers" in April in Guangzhou, 15-20 of whom actually jumped.

graventy: What's the medical situation in China? Private health insurance?
Yeah, mostly, and it doesn't tend to cover suicide attempts.

Man, what an asshole. Surely there's a legal way for him to solve his financial dispute rather than faking suicide to try to get police involved?
HAH! Corruption. If the suppliers have "already tracked down his mom's family", that usually means there's harassment, and possibly violence, involved. Real estate is real, real shady in these parts, and every other week there's some story appearing on the internet about some construction contract dispute that ends with someone in the hospital. I don't know that Chen is any less shady than anyone else, but I do know what kind of pressure he's probably under.

I have a friend in Beijing whose father's business partner was involved in...something, and got the father into it. She and her family were arrested by provincial police (who are WAY out of their jurisdiction), brought to a Beijing police station, and her cousin was slapped around pretty badly. They were asking "where the money" was. We got a phone call that night to go pick them up from the station in the suburbs.

Given that his deal was probably legally grey anyway, and that could endanger his family and himself by going back home, this probably seemed like as good an idea as any.
posted by saysthis at 4:49 PM on May 24, 2009 [2 favorites]


26 feet is basically a highball boulder problem and there, you don't have the luxury of an air cushion if you fall.
posted by Flashman at 4:54 PM on May 24, 2009


HAH! Corruption. If the suppliers have "already tracked down his mom's family", that usually means there's harassment, and possibly violence, involved. Real estate is real, real shady in these parts, and every other week there's some story appearing on the internet about some construction contract dispute that ends with someone in the hospital.

Maybe Lai was part of the "collections" crew...
posted by b1tr0t at 5:18 PM on May 24, 2009


Maybe Lai was part of the "collections" crew...

My favorite construction/wage dispute story from China comes from Nanjing, where I live. A well-meaning foreman goes to his higher-ups to ask for his workers' wages in advance of a holiday last year. He's greeted by hired goons who cut off his arm and then chase him away with machetes and spears.
posted by msbrauer at 6:28 PM on May 24, 2009


据非官方的资料统计,那位老人曾经3次从洛溪桥上救下轻生者。
Reportedly, Lai Jiansheng, who has only three weeks until retirement said

名用匕首对准自己脖颈、造成洛溪大桥封闭堵塞的男子一把抱下。
"I'm getting too old for this shit"
posted by Smedleyman at 10:21 PM on May 24, 2009 [9 favorites]


Where are all the proponents of assisted suicide now?
posted by mazola at 8:55 AM on May 25, 2009


From the description/translation of the conversation with the would-be-jumper, it sounds less like a suicide attempt and more like extortion/hostage situation.
posted by Salamandrous at 12:10 PM on May 25, 2009


saysthis, I just want to say this: that was a fantastic summary. Thank you for the translation.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:56 PM on May 25, 2009


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