Skip

Eating tasty raw animals
May 29, 2009 8:15 AM   Subscribe


 
Foodborne parasites are a great way to lose weight.
posted by borkencode at 8:24 AM on May 29, 2009 [9 favorites]


Are Humans Natural Meat Eaters?

Irrelevant on two fronts. First, what is natural is not necessarily best for us. Second, what is best for us individually or in the short term may not be what's best for us as a group or in the long term.
posted by DU at 8:24 AM on May 29, 2009 [11 favorites]


*Gets bag of dry roasted edamame, sets up lawn chair*
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:25 AM on May 29, 2009 [5 favorites]


> Hoffman, a world-renowned specialist in game meat and an avid carnivore, is critical of the anti-meat sentiments that have become more prominent in recent years.

A lot of vegetarians aren't "anti-meat" so much as they are "anti-factory farming"...that is, it's not the killing and consumption of animals they object to, it's the methods by which most animals are raised, killed and processed on their way to your plate. I have a strictly vegan friend who has always maintained that were he to catch, clean and cook a fish, or any other animal, he would have no moral problem with eating it.

The only problem with Hoffman's outlook is that there isn't enough wild game to go around for going on seven billion people.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:28 AM on May 29, 2009 [11 favorites]


Second, what is best for us individually or in the short term may not be what's best for us as a group or in the long term.

Our esteemed panel has also noticed that you are not smoking a Marlboro, and you do not appear to have an inexpensive low-quality American beer in your hand. I will get right to the point: Sir, are you now or have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party?
posted by aramaic at 8:31 AM on May 29, 2009 [12 favorites]


As much as I love meat, there are lots of sweeping generalizations and assumptions in the last 2 articles.

Eat what you want when you want and don't assume to know the inner workings of another person's digestive tract.
posted by HumanComplex at 8:32 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


*Gets a bag of spicy chicharones, sets up lawn chair*
posted by adamrice at 8:42 AM on May 29, 2009


*Eats lawn chair, dies*
posted by Skot at 8:46 AM on May 29, 2009 [16 favorites]


*Gets a bag of otter's noses, sets up lawn chair*

What?
posted by Mister_A at 8:46 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


Tape worms are gross....

Un cooked pig is grosser.....

Way way back we might have had the digestive system to handle eating raw meat and such but now after several 1000 years since discovering fire and how cook food not only tastes better but it better for you I honestly do not think we could handle this diet.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 8:47 AM on May 29, 2009


*Gets bag of generic processed crap, sets up lawn chair, lawn chair eventually strains under weight and collapses, finds religion, eats meat and two veg every day for the rest of life, achieves resting heart rate under fifty bpm, leaves a very flexible corpse*
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 8:48 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


my god I hate food evangelism. I'm an exceptionally picky eater, and meat has ended up being a large part of my diet. so naturally, vegan and vegetarian evangelism has always irked me. (please understand, I'm talking about the propaganda and proselytizing, not the actual choice to be a vegan or vegetarian.) But anti-vegan or pro-meat evangelism is just as annoying to me. I fucking hate it. What people eat is an extremely important and personal choice. It might sound silly for me to make it sound so personal and private, but I really think it is. If someone starts trying to tell me why I should change my lifestyle around to fit their morality, it makes me want to punch them in the face. I get almost as offended as if they had told me my sexual preference was wrong and should be changed. I can understand anyone simply trying to defend their own lifestyle choice in the face of ignorance or unfair criticism. But all this "avoiding meat is unnatural!" or "eating meat destroys the environment!" bullshit really needs to stop. There's a difference between educating people and evangelizing, and when that line gets crossed it drives me up the fucking wall.
posted by shmegegge at 8:49 AM on May 29, 2009 [11 favorites]


Eat food. Mostly animals. As much as you want. And don't cook em.

Let me just say I love living next door to a butcher shop.
posted by futureisunwritten at 8:49 AM on May 29, 2009


I've come to two conclusions over the last few years.

1) I cannot go vegetarian. Even with proper nutritional supplements, every time I have tried, I have, within 6 months, become horrifically ill - usually a severe flu or other viral infection. And for someone who is used to severe colds on a regular basis, when I say horrifically ill, I mean bed ridden, omg why doesn't someone take me to a hospital, level ill.

2) I cannot eat a strict paleo diet either. I tried. While I love the fact that my sense of taste and smell returned full force, and that I've pretty much shrugged off my last love of non fruit sweet things, the side effect was a shift in my digestive tract heath to what I can only describe as "BLOW ALL TANKS". Which was not fun either.

So what do I do? Well, I've tried to strike a balance. I've severely limited my intake of all things grain and dairy, but try not to over do it on the meat. In a way, I've taken the advice of an old anthropology professor of mine who said, roughly "You can always tell a skull from the last 50 years, assuming they had any decent income - the cusps are pointy even at 50. Its a result of the twinkie and white bread diet. Our teeth are meant for fruit and veggies, and bugs and nuts - eat what a bear eats, and you're on the right track."
posted by strixus at 8:50 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


Well at least this post didn't make my blood sugar go up.
posted by localroger at 8:51 AM on May 29, 2009


Didn't humans live to 18 or 19 years old, back in those salad days of yore?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:54 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


Nah. BTW not promoting this or slating it, just thought it was noteworthy.
posted by Not Supplied at 8:57 AM on May 29, 2009


vegan and vegetarian evangelism has always irked me. (please understand, I'm talking about the propaganda and proselytizing, not the actual choice to be a vegan or vegetarian.)

Really? I mean, really? Has this ever happened to anyone, even once, anywhere in the world? I mean, not in the context of some wacky Greenpeace activist, but from one person to another in civilian life? I grew up in a family of vegetarians, around vegetarians, live in a city full of them, and I have never once heard one of them tell someone else what he should or shouldn't eat. Not once.
posted by drjimmy11 at 8:59 AM on May 29, 2009 [5 favorites]


Has this ever happened to anyone, even once, anywhere in the world?

Yes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:03 AM on May 29, 2009 [13 favorites]


The only thing that bugs me about vegan and vegetarian "evangelism" is that they're usually completely right, and the only thing I can say in my defense is "but KFC is freakin' delicious!"
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:03 AM on May 29, 2009 [15 favorites]


A lot of vegetarians aren't "anti-meat" so much as they are "anti-factory farming"...that is, it's not the killing and consumption of animals they object to, it's the methods by which most animals are raised, killed and processed on their way to your plate.

Tons of vegetarians are going crazy over the Canadian GG eating that raw seal heart. I don't think you can get any more sustainable or natural than that.
posted by Iax at 9:06 AM on May 29, 2009


But all this "avoiding meat is unnatural!" or "eating meat destroys the environment!" bullshit really needs to stop.

Yeah, the environmental angle is a bunch of hooey. No, just kidding, you're very wrong.
posted by peeedro at 9:07 AM on May 29, 2009 [11 favorites]


drjimmy11: "Really? I mean, really? Has this ever happened to anyone, even once, anywhere in the world? "

Yeah, me. I have a good friend who's been a vegan since she was 12 years old, her parents are vegans, she's raising her son vegan, etc. All her e-mails end with a .sig imploring the reader to be vegan. A few times a year she'll try to convert me (I was a vegetarian for over a decade, so she senses vulnerability). The most recent remark was, after confirming that I hadn't gone vegan yet, "So you don't care about factory farming?"

She's funny and I like her and she knows she's being annoying, so I just laugh and we get along fine.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:09 AM on May 29, 2009


Has this ever happened to anyone, even once, anywhere in the world?

Yes, repeatedly. I've had several people spew some bullshit at me about '"meat rotting in your colon".
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 9:14 AM on May 29, 2009


Bugs. Nice, Juicy bugs.
posted by metagnathous at 9:15 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


if anyone here would like to go up to rankin inlet and teach the inuit how to grow vegetables, have at 'er. the reason they eat meat is because there's nothing else, and the reason they eat it raw is that they'd get scurvy otherwise.

in the modern arctic, the alternatives to seal and caribou are tv dinners and cheetos.
posted by klanawa at 9:20 AM on May 29, 2009 [4 favorites]


I hear not infrequently what some omnivores think of vegetarians. And vice versa. I've also heard about how much my favorite band sucks.

I think people are just nosy like that. Especially on the internet.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 9:24 AM on May 29, 2009 [4 favorites]


I've always said that if I were to ever start eating meat, I want it to be human.
posted by klangklangston at 9:24 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


If we don't have factory farms, how are we going to grow new factories? hmm?
posted by found missing at 9:24 AM on May 29, 2009 [7 favorites]


Not only that, klanawa, but there are no trees in the polar north, and thus very little fuel for cooking fires (historically speaking of course - there are modern sources available now, but you can see how eating raw meat is ingrained in the culture of the people of the polar north).
posted by Mister_A at 9:25 AM on May 29, 2009


When people talk of eating muscle to build muscle, I think of the apes from Princess Mononoke: Yes, let us eat the man creature. ... If we eat the human, we will steal his strength, and we will drive the other humans away. (full subtitles)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:26 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


Although, in my 29 years, the only things that have really tempted me are some sushis and all the weird shit they sell on taco trucks here.
posted by klangklangston at 9:27 AM on May 29, 2009


A lot of vegetarians aren't "anti-meat" so much as they are "anti-factory farming"...that is, it's not the killing and consumption of animals they object to, it's the methods by which most animals are raised, killed and processed on their way to your plate.

As a vegetarian, I have to say that this is not my motivation. I don't like the idea of an animal being killed in order for me to consume it, period. Killing floor or traditional ritual, the end result is the same.

However, I also take the stance that diet is a personal decision, and my choice is not used to judge others with a different perspective. Go ahead and kill and eat whatever you like in whatever way you're comfortable with. Just don't ask me to "try a bite."
posted by Paid In Full at 9:30 AM on May 29, 2009


In the battle between Cute and Tasty, Tasty will always, ultimately, win. At least with me.
posted by digitalprimate at 9:33 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


I've always said that if I were to ever start eating meat, I want it to be human.

If you do, make sure you eat vegetarians. They're grain-fed.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:33 AM on May 29, 2009 [6 favorites]


"However, I also take the stance that diet is a personal decision, and my choice is not used to judge others with a different perspective. Go ahead and kill and eat whatever you like in whatever way you're comfortable with. Just don't ask me to "try a bite.""

Yeah, being vegetarian is a little like being without religion, constantly being proslytized to. It's no real wonder that some folks who chose meat-free diets get to be like the pissy atheists and try to proslytize back.
posted by klangklangston at 9:34 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


Really? I mean, really? Has this ever happened to anyone, even once, anywhere in the world?

People who complain about vegetarians "proselytizing" are the same people complaining about gays and lesbians "flaunting" or "shoving" their "lifestyle" "down my throat". There's another term they use for feminists and minorities "forcing" Regular Joes to see or know things, but I can't remember it now.
posted by DU at 9:35 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


"If you do, make sure you eat vegetarians. They're grain-fed."

Oh, yeah, totally. I don't want any of the mercury or dioxins or weird-ass antibiotics that have accumulated in folks who are at the top of the food chain.
posted by klangklangston at 9:37 AM on May 29, 2009


In my experience, vegetarians are too weak from malnourishment to "proselytize".
posted by found missing at 9:39 AM on May 29, 2009


"Not only that, klanawa, but there are no trees in the polar north, [..]"

But there are plenty in the EU, so that isn't much of an argument against the EU's ban on importing seal products. Exporting seal skins to Milan was hardly part of the Inuit's traditional life either. Jean wasn't showing respect for a traditional way of life, she was engaging in a disingenuous PR stunt to oppose a particular international trade decision.
posted by bonecrusher at 9:39 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


Aw, man, I'm no good at spelling proselytize. But I only got, like, two words right in the National Spelling Bee last night, so what can ya do? (The French words really killed me.)
posted by klangklangston at 9:40 AM on May 29, 2009


strixus: "every time I have tried, I have, within 6 months, become horrifically ill - usually a severe flu or other viral infection"

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that there's a connection? I've been horrifically ill a handful of times in my life, and I've never been a vegetarian. People just get sick once in a while. The best theory I can come up with is that a lack of protein hurt your immune system, but a vegetarian diet doesn't have to mean a lack of protein. Tofu, beans, lentils, quinoa..
posted by Plutor at 9:41 AM on May 29, 2009


What people eat is an extremely important and personal choice.

I think the opposite of this but we agree on the results: whether on the offensive or being defensive, bitching about other people's food choices is pretty much the fastest way to make yourself look like a spazzy half-wit. Let's get back to arguing about stuff that actually matters, like whether or not the new ST movie is canon ( IT IS NOT CANON FYI!!!!! )
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:41 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


"If you do, make sure you eat vegetarians. They're grain-fed."

Unfortunately, they're a bit gamy.
posted by organic at 9:42 AM on May 29, 2009


I'm not going to argue what others should eat. I honestly do think it is very much determined by a complex host of factors that isn't even vaguely understood completely.

But chimps will eat meat when they can, and I have a bugger of a time telling boar and bear teeth from human teeth if they are worn enough, and my gut tells me MEAT (but not that chemically soaked shit people keep trying to pass off on you as MEAT) but also FRUIT and NUTS so... yeah.

And given a choice, if they are in the house, I will blow off all other foods for carrots.
posted by strixus at 9:44 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


Carrwhats?
Oh you mean Hummus Delivery Systems? Those are OK.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:49 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


I discovered a long time ago that being pissy about my dietary choices was a good way of ensuring that I never, ever get invited back for dinner parties.

I don't care what anyone else eats. Meat, cheese, veggies, human exuberance, the laugher of babies, whatever makes you happy. Don't lecture me about being a pansy and I won't lecture you about being a barbarian, and everyone's happy.
posted by 1adam12 at 9:51 AM on May 29, 2009


...are the same people complaining about gays and lesbians "flaunting" or "shoving" their "lifestyle" "down my throat".

My own experience has been more with the protesters holding posters of boiled chickens and what-not outside of KFC. It is not all that different to me than the protesters holding posters of aborted fetuses -- it's guilt and misdirected anger masquerading as an earnest desire to persuade.
posted by JohnFredra at 9:53 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


Has this ever happened to anyone, even once, anywhere in the world?

I was going to quip that you clearly aren't from Southern California, but then apparently you are. I've been called "blood mouth" in public by an acquaintance after he realized I wasn't vegan / vegetarian, though this was on a college campus.
posted by radiosig at 9:55 AM on May 29, 2009


Really? I mean, really? Has this ever happened to anyone, even once, anywhere in the world? I mean, not in the context of some wacky Greenpeace activist, but from one person to another in civilian life?

Are you serious? Of course it has. As only one example, I once sat down to dinner and drinks with a few friends and one of them actually took one of the Skinny Bitch books out of her fucking purse and read passages at me because I was eating meat.

What's more, why the fuck should we even restrict the sample size to "one person to another in civilian life?" what, it doesn't count if it's an activist or a published author?

I grew up in a family of vegetarians, around vegetarians, live in a city full of them, and I have never once heard one of them tell someone else what he should or shouldn't eat. Not once.

You're a liar and a jerk.
posted by shmegegge at 10:00 AM on May 29, 2009 [6 favorites]


@PA: LOL HDS.
posted by Mister_A at 10:02 AM on May 29, 2009


People who complain about vegetarians "proselytizing" are the same people complaining about gays and lesbians "flaunting" or "shoving" their "lifestyle" "down my throat".

There's probably some truth to that, but even when I was a vegetarian I knew people who would - well I don't know if making gagging sounds when they're a guest at the home of someone who is eating meat would be called proseletyzing - but you get the idea.

The worst meat eaters ever did was try to convince me chicken was a vegetable. (Hi mom!)
posted by smartyboots at 10:02 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


I knew someone in the '90s who kept trying to advocate the "paleo" diet to me, but I could never get past the weird reasoning. Do these people actually think that humans 10k years ago ate only meat? Did they get all their information from watching the Flintstones grill dino-steaks?
posted by hattifattener at 10:03 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


Bonecrusher, that may well be, but I was not talking about sending seal skins to Milan, I was talking about why an all-raw-meat diet makes sense for the peoples of the polar north.
posted by Mister_A at 10:04 AM on May 29, 2009


Not to mention the inconvenience of a plate of ribs tipping your car over on its side.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:04 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


> Really? I mean, really? Has this ever happened to anyone, even once, anywhere in the world?

Sure it has. Here's my anecdote; there was a kid, the spitting image of your standard hippy-granola stereotype, at my high school who was in the habit of strolling up to kids eating hamburgers in the cafeteria and asking them "Did you know that used to be alive?" He was also in my OAC Writer's Craft class, wherein his independent study was a children's book entitled "Victor The Doomed Bull," about a young cow's journey from life in a happy, carefree meadow to steak on a plate (admittedly, it was quite well done).

These days I'd imagine he's either working for PETA or Maple Leaf.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:07 AM on May 29, 2009


People who complain about vegetarians "proselytizing" are the same people complaining about gays and lesbians "flaunting" or "shoving" their "lifestyle" "down my throat".

Oh hi! It looks like you're talking about me! No, I'm not! I hope this clears things up for you.
posted by shmegegge at 10:07 AM on May 29, 2009


> The only thing that bugs me about vegan and vegetarian "evangelism" is that they're usually completely right, and the only thing I can say in my defense is "but KFC is freakin' delicious!"

Just wait until you have good fried chicken.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:09 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


The thread on shoving things down the throat is a few doors down. Look for "rainbow party" or "goodnight kiss" tags.
posted by Mister_A at 10:10 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


> steak on a plate (admittedly, it was quite well done).

*facepalm* Pun completely unintentional, I swear.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:10 AM on May 29, 2009 [4 favorites]


Really? I mean, really? Has this ever happened to anyone, even once, anywhere in the world? I mean, not in the context of some wacky Greenpeace activist, but from one person to another in civilian life? I grew up in a family of vegetarians, around vegetarians, live in a city full of them, and I have never once heard one of them tell someone else what he should or shouldn't eat. Not once.

Maybe that's why you hadn't heard of it?
posted by wocka wocka wocka at 10:10 AM on May 29, 2009


Has this ever happened to anyone, even once, anywhere in the world?

In a strange twist, I've always gotten the worst preaching from vegan acquaintances when they discover that I'm a vegetarian. When they think I'm a default carnivore then nothing is said. I find this more than a little bizarre.
posted by selenized at 10:17 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


Plutor: No, I have absolutely no evidence to support that connection other than the fact that the three times I have gone vegetarian have been the three times in my life that I've been in need of or actually in hospital for an infection, all of which have occurred within the last 12 years of my life.

I have no idea why - I can't even begin to puzzle out what I was doing wrong - I ate plenty of protein, plenty of the right veggies and nuts and beans and everything - but at 5-6 months of that, my body decides it hates it. HATES it.

I know correlation is not causation, but sometimes, you just kinda don't want to tempt fate any more.

Of course, I'm also the only person I know who did 3 months of strict Atkins and gained weight, so who knows what the hell is up with my body.
posted by strixus at 10:18 AM on May 29, 2009


When people talk of eating muscle to build muscle, I think of the apes from Princess Mononoke: Yes, let us eat the man creature. ... If we eat the human, we will steal his strength, and we will drive the other humans away.

*eyes up cortex*
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:18 AM on May 29, 2009


Not only that, klanawa, but there are no trees in the polar north, and thus very little fuel for cooking fires

I just want to add that Inuit used qulliqs, an oil lamp made from soapstone, and use whale blubber or seal fat as the fuel. Though, in order to do that, you'd need to kill a seal or whale. Some still use the qulliq today, however, its presence is mostly ceremonial and the Coleman stove is now popular.

Also, the GG is the bee's knees. How daring to eat a piece of raw seal heart in front of all that media. I especially love her quote, "These are ancient practices that are part of a way of life. If you can't understand that, you're completely missing the reality of life here." Living a traditional way of life up north today is difficult - you need a way to get out on the land and most people nowadays travel by skidoo or boat, costing a lot in gas. In Nunavik, hunters fill up the community freezer for those who are unable get out on the land with extra game and meat. Eating even a small amount of traditional food cuts down on the overwhelming living costs up north. Last year, in Kangiqsuallujuaq, a 1 kg bag of Green Giant mixed vegetables cost $8.59 and a 4 L bag of homo milk was $11.99. Even with the northern allowance, costs are very pricey.

if anyone here would like to go up to rankin inlet and teach the inuit how to grow vegetables, have at 'er.

First you'd have to get funding to build a greenhouse then ship in lumber, garden soil, compost and other supplies by sealift and build raised beds above the permafrost. You'd also have to be selective about the types of vegetables you grow as the growing season is so short - even if you're growing indoors. There's the Piruqsiavut greenhouse in Iqaluit that has had some success with growing lettuce and tomatoes. There's also a greenhouse in Inuvik, whose last spring frost is in mid-June and first fall frost is in late August. There is a greenhouse in Kuujjuaq, however, it was closed when I was there.
posted by KathyK at 10:19 AM on May 29, 2009 [12 favorites]


hattifattener, I did a quasi-paleolithic diet about 5 years ago and found that it was more about eating foods that would have been more or less available at the time (tree nuts, fruits and vegetables, fish and other meat). Things that were cultivated (grains) or animal byproducts (eggs, dairy) were to be avoided. For me it turned into more of a raw foods + lean meat kinda diet -- just one way of eating healthfully, really, but in a way that felt sustainable and caveman-mystiquey for me. I think your paleo friend was really just into Atkins and wanted a cooler name for it. :)
posted by JohnFredra at 10:20 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


People who complain about vegetarians "proselytizing" are the same people complaining about gays and lesbians "flaunting" or "shoving" their "lifestyle" "down my throat".

Does bringing up gay and lesbian issues in a conversation about food qualify as "flaunting" or "shoving"?

for the record, i've never complained about either.
posted by HumanComplex at 10:22 AM on May 29, 2009


"a 4 L bag of homo milk was $11.99."

I didn't even know you could milk a homo!
posted by klangklangston at 10:23 AM on May 29, 2009 [9 favorites]


eat what a bear eats, and you're on the right track

Given the $80 for live bees and $150 to set up a hive I'm thinking that "bee grub" is too expensive. And sting-y.

But Wasps - If Emperor Hirohito thought it was good enough for him.....what a way to rid myself of the meddling insects!
posted by rough ashlar at 10:32 AM on May 29, 2009


In a strange twist, I've always gotten the worst preaching from vegan acquaintances when they discover that I'm a vegetarian.

This is how the Orthodox Jews prosthelytize in the subway, first they ask if you are Jewish and if you say "No." they let you go. Presumably if you are at least a little Jewish then they try to make you more so.
posted by snofoam at 10:41 AM on May 29, 2009


I'm going to play the vegan devil's advocate here and answer all of you who are complaining about vegans who get upset when you eat meat.

Please understand, they (we) see it as murder. For those of you who say that it is 'your personal choice' what you eat, well, killing a human is a personal choice too. We just don't tolerate it in our society. Unfortunately, the law hasn't yet extended to protect non-human animals yet either. So at this junction, we have people who do it because they can and people who are working to change the laws and stop you from doing it all together.

As a vegan myself, I tend to fall under the 'factory farming is horrible' category. So is the fishing industry and a number of other things.

I believe, from evidence I have seen, that humans are built to digest fruits, vegetables, nuts, berries, insects, fish and the occasional small game. That's it. When we start eating LOTS of small game, then larger game, then cow and moose, we start having digestive and other physical problems.

Unfortunately, in this day and age there are TOO MANY people to live sustainably on a diet of hunted animal. Factory farming is a complete disgrace and we should all be ashamed of it, and finally end it.

I'm so sorry, but you should have to give up that steak you like so much. Not because being vegan is good for you, but because it just makes environmental sense. It would also free up tons of land to grow more food for more of the world.

And stop polluting our water, our air, and just stop the misery already.

If everyone would stop being selfish, this world would be a better place.
posted by Malice at 10:41 AM on May 29, 2009 [7 favorites]


In a strange twist, I've always gotten the worst preaching from vegan acquaintances when they discover that I'm a vegetarian. When they think I'm a default carnivore then nothing is said. I find this more than a little bizarre.

As a meat-eater, you're hopeless. As a vegetarian, they're hoping to appeal to you on grounds of inconsistency of belief, I'm betting. I have the same problem when I tell people I worship Huitzilopochtli. "Sorry, sun-gods only" never seems to do the trick.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:42 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


One thing that's sort of annoying about the whole vegetarianism as environmental imperative argument is that there's almost always this slight of hand where cattle is substituted for meat in general assuming no one will notice when cattle is much worse than poultry and pork in terms of non point sourced environmental impacts. Many people probably should eat less meat than they do but and a vegetarian diet is superior from an environmental perspective but meat eating can be part of an ecologically responsible diet.
posted by I Foody at 10:48 AM on May 29, 2009 [3 favorites]


I'm going to play the vegan devil's advocate here and answer all of you who are complaining about vegans who get upset when you eat meat.

Please understand...


Please stop.
posted by shmegegge at 10:55 AM on May 29, 2009 [8 favorites]


a 4 L bag of homo milk was $11.99.

In Canada, homo milk comes in bags.
posted by Greg Nog at 11:01 AM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


I'm curious about the people who react so viscerally to the suggestion that they include more factors into their food choice decisions than whether or not they like it or it tastes good. Obviously there's a spectrum here, not everyone feels so strongly that their food choices cannot be questioned. But for those who take great offense: Do we have a right to eat whatever we want? Are we entitled to only think about how yummy something is? If so, where did that entitlement come from?
(not trying to provoke, am genuinely interested)
posted by sineater at 11:02 AM on May 29, 2009 [3 favorites]


A bit of a tangent, but I really find all the health claims made by vegetarians/vegans to be truly baffling. Sure, meat is not great for you if you're talking about rib eye steaks, low quality ground beef, or other really fatty cuts.

But that's just looking at unhealthy meat options. If you stir fry your veggies and tofu in a liter of oil, that crap is terrible for you too. If you actually look at the nutrition info in a piece of top round beef, chicken breast, or lean fish, it's pretty low fat and high protein.

And quinoa, legumes, tofu, etc...what a joke. Quinoa and legumes are mostly carbs with a very small amount of protein that only looks significant compared to other grains. And if you actually look at the nutrition info on tofu, it's mostly fat:

http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calories-in-regular-raw_f-Y2lkPTM3NDU0JmJpZD0xJmZpZD02OTg1OCZlaWQ9NDI3MTI5NDgyJnBvcz0ma2V5PXRvZnU.html

Seriously, for anyone who does any real exercise, vegan and vegetarian diets are a joke for maintaining your body unless you supplement with a ton of protein shakes which, surprise! are the product of whey protein which are the product of factory farming.
posted by I like to eat meat at 11:06 AM on May 29, 2009


also, i realize my post may be eponysterical - i didn't make my account just to post this, i swear!
posted by I like to eat meat at 11:09 AM on May 29, 2009 [3 favorites]



Seriously, for anyone who does any real exercise, vegan and vegetarian diets are a joke for maintaining your body unless you supplement with a ton of protein shakes which, surprise! are the product of whey protein which are the product of factory farming.
posted by I like to eat meat at 11:06 AM on May 29


This isn't true at all. My husband is in great shape and - omg - is a vegan!

If you're looking to bodybuild - I am sure this link would come of use to you.

Yeah, bodybuilding usually takes supplements - whether it be whey protein shakes, rice or soy protein shakes, or just physically ingesting tons of protein in another form.

If you're NOT looking to bodybuild and just be toned and healthy, a balanced diet is all you need.
posted by Malice at 11:11 AM on May 29, 2009


You should try the kiviak! (You have to scroll down to the last graf for the payoff).

It goes great with Miracle Whip®
posted by Mister_A at 11:11 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


Oh, and by the way, I was a successful road and track bicycle racer while eating a vegetarian diet (with very little dairy cuz my tummy no like) some years ago. That is some fairly serious exercise.

There is plenty of protein in beans, etc.; the fact is that most people in the US eat more protein than they need. I have no beef with people who eat meat (I am one of them!), but you know, all things in moderation. I like to eat meat, your comment comes off a bit ill-informed and reflexive, and that's putting it kindly.
posted by Mister_A at 11:21 AM on May 29, 2009


I had a vegan friend who came over, though I warned her I was putting away groceries, which included meat. She'd been vocal about the vegan thing in the past, so I thought, "Hey, fair warning." She got cranky and pissy when I began preparing little patties of hamburger meat for freezing and I was a little tired of it, so I squeezed great big fistfuls of burger through my hands, including that watery blood you so often see, smeared bits of ground chuck and gore across my mouth and chin, then rolled up my eyes and did my best "graUauahgh" weary zombie groan.

Seeing someone already anemic going whiter was fairly rewarding, and she never did hassle me about my food choices again. Kind of a jerk move on my part, but damn, do not harangue me about my food in my own home.
posted by adipocere at 11:29 AM on May 29, 2009 [12 favorites]


*eyes up cortex*

Spare my family, take me! (vid)
posted by zippy at 11:33 AM on May 29, 2009


didn't know they had rice protein powder, interesting.

I agree that It's possible to get a high protein diet on a vegan diet if you heavily supplement with soy/rice protein shakes as you said, but how is that diet more healthy if you have to supplement it by taking a bunch of specially formulated shakes multiple times a day?

All I'm saying is that a vegetarian/vegan diet is not automatically more healthy than a diet including meat, assuming you're comparing a healthy vegetarian diet with a healthy diet that includes lean meat, and to even get them on a comparable level you have to heavily supplement that vegetarian diet with protein shakes.

Incidentally, I think that kinda contradicts the we were designed to not eat a lot of meat argument, since rice/soy protein powder do not exist in nature, and the human body does function better with the levels of protein ingestion that are only naturally attainable through meat if you exercise and lift weights regularly.
posted by I like to eat meat at 11:35 AM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


eat what a bear eats, and you're on the right track.

I fully support eating salmon, berries, and sleeping for weeks on end.
posted by The Whelk at 11:35 AM on May 29, 2009 [3 favorites]


The Primal Diet is a Raw-Animal-Food diet, started by a guru by the name of Aajonus Vonderplanitz...

With a name like that you just have to be looney - no choice, really...
posted by oxidizer at 11:36 AM on May 29, 2009


Vegetarians are jerks who need to shut up because shmegegge is a picky eater. Please guys, he is very sensitive about this. If you want to discuss the environmental impact of different types of food production, can you go do it where he doesn't have to see it?
posted by snofoam at 11:42 AM on May 29, 2009


you have to heavily supplement that vegetarian diet with protein shakes.

Again, emphatically, no you don't. You do not have to supplement your diet heavily with protein shakes. You don't have to supplement with shakes to get a vegetarian diet to a "comparable level," whatever that means to a meat-eating diet. You do realize that all those words in the back of the bodybuilding magazines are ads, right?
posted by Mister_A at 11:47 AM on May 29, 2009


Monday morning I'll be driving through Serbia, and I cannot stop thinking of the big plate of pork ribs with my name on them.

This discussion isn't helping.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:49 AM on May 29, 2009


didn't know they had rice protein powder, interesting.

I agree that It's possible to get a high protein diet on a vegan diet if you heavily supplement with soy/rice protein shakes as you said, but how is that diet more healthy if you have to supplement it by taking a bunch of specially formulated shakes multiple times a day?

All I'm saying is that a vegetarian/vegan diet is not automatically more healthy than a diet including meat, assuming you're comparing a healthy vegetarian diet with a healthy diet that includes lean meat, and to even get them on a comparable level you have to heavily supplement that vegetarian diet with protein shakes.

Incidentally, I think that kinda contradicts the we were designed to not eat a lot of meat argument, since rice/soy protein powder do not exist in nature, and the human body does function better with the levels of protein ingestion that are only naturally attainable through meat if you exercise and lift weights regularly.
posted by I like to eat meat at 11:35 AM on May 2


Rice Protein Powder is supposedly the best for you of the three that I have heard. The other two tend to give you the (pardon) shits, from what I understand.

What you're saying is basically that if you have to supplement to build muscle, how is the lifestyle good for you, right?

Gathering from what I know of all bodybuilding, almost all of them take supplements (and/or steroids) so I don't really see any difference.

Also, it's a myth that you cannot get the same amount of protein on a vegan diet. I eat more protein than my body knows what to do with. Too much protein, probably, for my current level of physical activity. A hamburger doesn't occur naturally in nature, or a steak. They require cooking. So do most vegan protein foods.

There really is little difference in protein intake if you eat well, or gear your diet toward bodybuilding/strenuous exercise (as anyone on any diet would do if that was there goal.)
posted by Malice at 11:50 AM on May 29, 2009


Seriously, for anyone who does any real exercise, vegan and vegetarian diets are a joke for maintaining your body unless you supplement with a ton of protein shakes which, surprise! are the product of whey protein which are the product of factory farming.

Pesco-ovo-lacto vegetarians can do well.
Haven't you heard of tuna, salmon, cottage cheese, egg whites, and sardines?

Do whatever you want, but I'll be glad to put my health stats up against a red-meat-eater or vegan anyday: I was told I have the heart rate of a professional athlete, I'm the only person I know who has more good cholesterol than bad, and an insulin response that's so sensitive, the researchers administering the study actually took the time to interview me and take notes on my diet and exercise regimen to see what I'm doing right.

If anyone wants to convince me to change my diet, you'll have to show me why I can expect better results than the ones I'm getting now.
posted by aquafortis at 11:50 AM on May 29, 2009


Seriously, for anyone who does any real exercise, vegan and vegetarian diets are a joke for maintaining your body

"Despite the harsh discipline, gladiators represented a substantial investment for their lanista and were otherwise well cared for. Their high-energy, vegetarian diet combined barley, boiled beans, oatmeal, ash (believed to help fortify the body) and dried fruit." -- from the Wikipedia article on gladiators.

I'm no gladiator, but I'm also a vegetarian who has no problem competing in contests that involve strength, endurance and athletic ability. I really hope that one day this whole "vegetarian = weak" thing goes away, along with "meat eater = destroyer of the planet".
posted by lord_wolf at 11:51 AM on May 29, 2009


I'm really confused by the introduction of this bodybuilding thing. Presumably prehistoric people were not bodybuilders and also did not have protein shakes.

I think as far as we know different groups of prehistoric people had widely different diets based on what was available locally. So there are many possible different diets which are potentially healthy and it's probably pretty unlikely that any one specific diet could be considered our naturally intended food.

But clearly bodybuilding itself is totally unnatural (hence the building part).
posted by snofoam at 12:00 PM on May 29, 2009


Bonecrusher, that may well be, but I was not talking about sending seal skins to Milan, I was talking about why an all-raw-meat diet makes sense for the peoples of the polar north.


Sure - my argument isn't really with you. What bothers me about Jean is that she is pretending to be making a statement like yours, but her actual goal is to have an unrelated effect on international trade policy. It's a sleazy move.
posted by bonecrusher at 12:00 PM on May 29, 2009


Vegetarians are jerks who need to shut up because shmegegge is a picky eater. Please guys, he is very sensitive about this. If you want to discuss the environmental impact of different types of food production, can you go do it where he doesn't have to see it?

you've summarized me perfectly. thank God you clarified my comments for me, since the rest of the thread was clearly deceived by my honeyed words. I sincerely hope the rest of you guys are as thankful to snofoam as I am, since he has saved you from such deception.
posted by shmegegge at 12:01 PM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


And stop polluting our water, our air, and just stop the misery already. If everyone would stop being selfish, this world would be a better place.

It's pretty ineffective to try to change peoples minds by tossing around accusations. Pretend for a moment you'd like to encourage your neighbor Joe to save the environment by using the car less. Which of these arguments is more compelling?

You: Hey, Joe, want to bike to work one day with me? I decided to start because I wanted to use my car less - lower pollution, save gas - but I've been having a lot of fun doing that. It's even a pretty good was to destress before work. I think you'd enjoy it.

or

You: Hey, Joe, you should not use your car. You're polluting our water and our air. If everyone would stop being as selfish as you the world would be a lot better.

The first person's goal is to make the world a better place. The second person might think that's what their doing, but in being so cast-the-first-stone about it he or she is actually hurting the cause and everyone associated with it.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 12:03 PM on May 29, 2009 [6 favorites]


mister_a/malice, perhaps I should qualify my comment by saying that this is coming from a perspective of a weightlifter, which probably is different from someone doing endurance sports, which rely on a carb-heavy diet right?

I think you have a kind of biased view towards bodybuilding, not everyone who lifts weights and wants good results is some kind of idiot obsessed with all the pseudoscience in bodybuilding magazines.

I'm saying, for most people who want to be healthy and are not doing any kind of extreme endurance sport, the last thing they need is more carbs and less protein in their diet. If eating more protein than is typical for a high carb american diet did not have positive impacts on muscle mass and performance, why would bodybuilders and most weightlifters who know about nutrition do it? Are you seriously saying there is no correlation between health/fitness/performance and muscle mass? Why would you automatically dismiss what people do when they want to maximize strength and muscle mass (even if you don't want to take it as far as them?)

Also, I'm not trying to start a fight here, just discussing. Malice, I'm curious, what high protein vegetarian foods are you eating that are comparable to meat? I'd definitely like to work some of that into my diet.
posted by I like to eat meat at 12:14 PM on May 29, 2009


And stop polluting our water, our air, and just stop the misery already. If everyone would stop being selfish, this world would be a better place.

It's pretty ineffective to try to change peoples minds by tossing around accusations. Pretend for a moment you'd like to encourage your neighbor Joe to save the environment by using the car less. Which of these arguments is more compelling?

You: Hey, Joe, want to bike to work one day with me? I decided to start because I wanted to use my car less - lower pollution, save gas - but I've been having a lot of fun doing that. It's even a pretty good was to destress before work. I think you'd enjoy it.

or

You: Hey, Joe, you should not use your car. You're polluting our water and our air. If everyone would stop being as selfish as you the world would be a lot better.

The first person's goal is to make the world a better place. The second person might think that's what their doing, but in being so cast-the-first-stone about it he or she is actually hurting the cause and everyone associated with it.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 12:03 PM on May 29


I understand that point of view.

Now imagine if people had just politely asked for their rights instead of demanding them.

This argument works for objects like cars, but does not work while people, or other animals, are suffering and dying.

Asking someone to try eating a little less meat just sounds like I'm condoning it. I wouldn't ask a murderer to kill a little less, or a company dumping waste into the oceans to just do it a little less.

I understand that you probably don't share my views and don't see any of these things on the same level as each other, but I do.

Besides, going up to someone who eats meat and saying "Hey, I'm not eating meat today! Want to join me?" usually gets a snarky laugh. I've offered many of my meat-eating friends and family vegan food (in addition to the meat they were already eating, not even instead of) and it gets turned down more often than taken.

Of course, I live in Texas, that could have something to do with it!
posted by Malice at 12:18 PM on May 29, 2009


also, you kind of have a skewed view of strength sports if you think everyone who works out to increase strength and fitness (what is a bodybuilder exactly? how does that differ from someone who lifts weights?) is on steroids and supplements.

not necessarily saying you're one of them, but a lot of people who don't know much about nutrition and weightlifting ironically assume that everyone who looks like "a bodybuilder" is on "supplements and steroids" because they think it's impossible to build significant muscle with diet and exercise alone, precisely because they don't know much about nutrition with that goal in mind.
posted by I like to eat meat at 12:21 PM on May 29, 2009


Do these people actually think that humans 10k years ago ate only meat?

Your friend misinformed you about the diet and you haven't taken any steps to correct this. It is most certainly not meat only.
posted by adamdschneider at 12:27 PM on May 29, 2009


Now imagine if people had just politely asked for their rights instead of demanding them.

This argument works for objects like cars, but does not work while people, or other animals, are suffering and dying.

Asking someone to try eating a little less meat just sounds like I'm condoning it. I wouldn't ask a murderer to kill a little less, or a company dumping waste into the oceans to just do it a little less.


How are you sure it wouldn't work? Yeah, if you're working for legislation for animal rights you don't "ask politely". But back there you weren't trying to write legislation, you were trying to convince meat-eaters to eat less meat.

I'm not a vegetarian now, but I became one for a few years once because of positive veg*n friends who made it look like an easy, good thing to do. That's how they converted, too, not because someone called them selfish.

If you're going to make it into an "all-or-nothing" issue, you're probably going to get nothing.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 12:31 PM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


Asking someone to try eating a little less meat just sounds like I'm condoning it. I wouldn't ask a murderer to kill a little less, or a company dumping waste into the oceans to just do it a little less.

You really don't see why making comparisons like this are insulting? It really doesn't occur to you that simply because you believe something really strongly, that doesn't mean that you should go around telling people they're murderers?
posted by shmegegge at 12:32 PM on May 29, 2009


also, you kind of have a skewed view of strength sports if you think everyone who works out to increase strength and fitness (what is a bodybuilder exactly? how does that differ from someone who lifts weights?) is on steroids and supplements.

not necessarily saying you're one of them, but a lot of people who don't know much about nutrition and weightlifting ironically assume that everyone who looks like "a bodybuilder" is on "supplements and steroids" because they think it's impossible to build significant muscle with diet and exercise alone, precisely because they don't know much about nutrition with that goal in mind.
posted by I like to eat meat at 12:21 PM on May 29


This response is also regarding the unquoted comment above I just noticed.

I am personally on a low-carb vegan diet. I do realize a lot of people who don't eat meat tend to rely too heavily on carbohydrates and this is going to cause you to be fat and out of shape, or at the very least, just tired a lot.

Some of the foods I eat are Tofu, Seitan, Broccoli, All manner of legumes, Kale, etc etc.

There is a huge list of protein containing foods and some of the ones listed above have even MORE protein than steak, and are more easily digested than meats.

It's just a huge, HUGE misconception that you can't get enough protein as a vegetarian/vegan. An enormous one.

It's a gaping hole in the nutritional information grid.
posted by Malice at 12:37 PM on May 29, 2009


shmegegge, why do you find it insulting?

I realize it can be viewed as insulting to someone who eats meat. The question is, WHY do you find it insulting?
posted by Malice at 12:39 PM on May 29, 2009


eat what a bear eats, and you're on the right track.

I feel bad for your slowest friend
posted by flaterik at 12:39 PM on May 29, 2009 [7 favorites]


How are you sure it wouldn't work? Yeah, if you're working for legislation for animal rights you don't "ask politely". But back there you weren't trying to write legislation, you were trying to convince meat-eaters to eat less meat.

I'm not a vegetarian now, but I became one for a few years once because of positive veg*n friends who made it look like an easy, good thing to do. That's how they converted, too, not because someone called them selfish.

If you're going to make it into an "all-or-nothing" issue, you're probably going to get nothing.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 12:31 PM on May 29


First question, how am I so sure it wouldn't work? Because vegans have been doing it as long as there have been vegans. While I do see more vegans and vegan options (I cannot attribute that to any one factor for conversion, though), I don't see any significant changes being made in the overall, do you?

Why did you stop being vegetarian?
posted by Malice at 12:41 PM on May 29, 2009


Solon, I largely agree with the point you make. I didn't take Malice's comment, though, as an actual attempt to convince anyone to become vegetarian, but an explanation of some of the rationale behind the choice.

Still, I think your hypothetical scenario both indicates and glosses over the issue somewhat. Indicative, because as sensible as your suggested approach is, I think it is somewhat unlikely that it would change the minds of most people or even get them to try it. And as an example, I think it kind of ignores how much more personal and emotionally charged food choices are (not that Americans aren't so emotionally attached to cars that they would use their guns to defend them).

I mean, "hey, wanna try my vegan cupcake?" is certainly the friendliest way to raise awareness about other dietary options, but I don't know how far that can go. When we want to reduce trash we show pictures of landfills, when we want to improve labor standards we show pictures of child labor, when we want to get Exxon to clean up after themselves we show pictures of oil-covered birds, when we want to get out of a stupid war we show pictures of death and destruction.

It seems like the basic idea here is that dietary choices are too personal and raising awareness about something like factory farming conditions is in bad taste, almost an act of aggression. People use terminology like prosthelytizing, as if the discussion of facts was analogous to the discussion of beliefs.

Many believe that it is necessary to release photos of torture and abuse in Iraq in the hopes that we are shamed from doing it again. At the same time, many of the same people may find it unbearably annoying to see the source of the food, or have any reminder of the environmental cost. I think this is largely because it is really ugly, maybe too ugly to really deal with. I think people naturally recoil from that. I think we know that we don't want to really see what's on the end of every fork.

But then, if we always hide from it, how will we ever get to a point where we know exactly what we're eating and we're totally okay with it?
posted by snofoam at 12:44 PM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


Very well put, Snofoam. Certainly, you're better at putting thought to words than I am.

You're also right. None of my posts were an intent to convert anyone to anything. Just an explanation of the choices.
posted by Malice at 12:50 PM on May 29, 2009


The question is, WHY do you find it insulting?

Probably for almost the exact same reason why vegetarians find it insulting when they're told they're weak-minded tree-humping losers with giant hypocrisy issues, personal hygiene problems and serious martyr complexes.

...but hey, maybe I'm the only vegetarian who finds that offensive. If you don't, then more power to ya.
posted by aramaic at 12:50 PM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


Probably for almost the exact same reason why vegetarians find it insulting when they're told they're weak-minded tree-humping losers with giant hypocrisy issues, personal hygiene problems and serious martyr complexes.

...but hey, maybe I'm the only vegetarian who finds that offensive. If you don't, then more power to ya.
posted by aramaic at 12:50 PM on May 29


It doesn't bother me anymore than it bothers me when they say that vegetarians are all weak and anemic. Just more chance to prove them wrong.

It's slightly different though, than saying "you doing x is the same as y doing z."
posted by Malice at 12:51 PM on May 29, 2009


Why did you stop being vegetarian?

I decided I don't have a problem with killing animals for food. I have a problem with factory farming.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:00 PM on May 29, 2009 [3 favorites]


The question is, WHY do you find it insulting?

Because you're comparing meat eaters to murderers.

Now, before you come back with whatever scripted reply you've got sitting in your brain, remember: I don't care what you think about eating meat and I don't want you trying to convert me. Eat what you want and leave me the fuck alone.
posted by shmegegge at 1:04 PM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


Unfortunately, the law hasn't yet extended to protect non-human animals yet either.

If we make killing animals murder, won't the prisons fill up with lions and tigers and bears?

-
posted by General Tonic at 1:05 PM on May 29, 2009



Why did you stop being vegetarian?

I decided I don't have a problem with killing animals for food. I have a problem with factory farming.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:00 PM on May 29


I feel generally the same way. I don't find anything morally wrong with killing for food as a necessity, but for me it just does not appear to be necessary (or sustainable for everyone to do) anymore.
posted by Malice at 1:05 PM on May 29, 2009


If I truly believed eating meat was literal murder I would do any and everything in my power to stop this murder. I would be literally morally obligated to do so regardless of the consequences. Much as I would if I thought genocide was occurring around me. this is why I doubt very sincerely that people actually truly believe that eating meat is murder. Either that or they are very weakly principled.

It is likely that some time very soon most of humanity will exist on a overwhelmingly vegetarian diet. The math just will not hold up to support 8-9 billion meat eaters. That's just a stark fact. Meat eaters will and should pay a premium.

However, I personally have been a vegetarian and flirted with veganism in the past. It was awful. I got sick constantly. I eventually ended up with severe sensitives to soy and wheat and developed a couple other allergies.

I am very, very careful about what I eat in terms of nutrition. Fanatically so. So it had nothing to do with how I was vegetarian.

But re-introducing meat/fish back into my diet was literally a necessity. And almost all of those health problems disappeared. As far as my physical status I was until very recently in the upper 6 to 9% for my age and was considered highly athletic. And now I'm in the upper 10-14% for my age. So meat itself is not the problem. I still am fanatical about what I eat. Where it comes from and how it made and how far it's transported. If it's a beet or beef. Ethically I find this very important. Much more so than if it was something that was "killed." Which there is zero ethical dilemma if the animal is raised humanely and sustainably. If you can't pay for that you probably shouldn't eat meat.
posted by tkchrist at 1:15 PM on May 29, 2009 [4 favorites]


Oh, one other thing that makes this issue so much harder is that participation in the dark side of food production is totally voluntary. It's really easy, and basically accurate to say "I couldn't have prevented Abu Ghraib." It's probably totally true for many people to say "I realistically couldn't get to my job without a car." If we were to try to change these things, there's a longer time table - lobbying congress or moving to a city with better public transportation.

On the other hand, we eat several times a day, so we're constantly making these decisions. And I would say most people in the developed world have a great deal of latitude in terms of deciding what they want to eat. Soy-allergic bodybuilders and a few other folks aside, we mostly eat what we choose to eat. And I think many (most?) eat what we want to eat. We eat what tastes good. I think glorious, delicious food is one of life's greatest pleasures, but it is a pleasure, a self-indulgence, at least for me, at least most of the time.

So, I think food choice in general is often a battle between pleasure and rational concerns like health, environment, cruelty, disease, etc. I think this is where so much of the emotion comes in, from the power of pleasure and the guilt we feel. (And obviously it goes way beyond vegetarianism to health, body image, etc., etc. Food beyond the the meat vs. veg is still a hugely emotional topic.)
posted by snofoam at 1:21 PM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


Unfortunately, the law hasn't yet extended to protect non-human animals yet either.

If we make killing animals murder, won't the prisons fill up with lions and tigers and bears?

-
posted by General Tonic at 1:05 PM on May 29


So now we touch on the "but animals do it!" logic.

Well, non-human animals rape too. Should humans be allowed to rape also?

No, non-human animals shouldn't be punished for killing, that's quite stupid. Humans, however, should hold themselves to a higher standard and NOT kill unless it is necessary for survival.

There are vegans who would say that killing even for survival shouldn't be done. I tend to disagree, as I am not going to lay down and die so an animal (human or not) can live unless I've some sort of emotional attachment to such.

I've even heard of vegans wanting to kill off all predators.. and that is just fucking bizarre and crazy.
posted by Malice at 1:23 PM on May 29, 2009


tkchrist, I have to ask - Just what were you eating? I occasionally hear about some people getting sick on a vegan or vegetarian diet and I suspect they just were not eating well, or were relying too heavily on something like carbs or soy.

For me it's the opposite. Any amount of animal product I eat starts to show in various ways on me and makes me physically ill. If I consume any dairy product (which happens rarely, usually by accident if I am not being careful enough about something I am grabbing for lunch) my blood pressure goes up for two days.
posted by Malice at 1:28 PM on May 29, 2009


Well, non-human animals rape too.

Interesting. How are you defining rape?
posted by found missing at 1:28 PM on May 29, 2009


tkchrist, I think probably the majority of the world's population already exists on a mostly vegetarian diet.

also, for the record, i'm not a vegetarian. i do buy all my meat at home from the farmer's market, but when i'm at a restaurant, i eat meat was probably raised in shameful and sickening circumstances. and i feel guilty about it, so i only think about it during metafilter threads like this. but i think i'll try to get at least incrementally better about my own bad habits.
posted by snofoam at 1:29 PM on May 29, 2009


actually, eating the raw meat of a fresh kill isn't at all unusual for visitors to inuit communities. i don't know if they intended that photo op as a "fuck you" to the EU, but the inuit are going to keep wearing skin and eating raw meat for the forseeable future, and feeding same to visiting dignitaries. not only that, but they are going to keep trading animal products, as they always have.
posted by klanawa at 1:33 PM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure how the concept of consent applies to most animals, but I'm pretty sure in many species one sex or the other forces the other to do it.
posted by snofoam at 1:36 PM on May 29, 2009


It seems like the basic idea here is that dietary choices are too personal and raising awareness about something like factory farming conditions is in bad taste, almost an act of aggression. People use terminology like prosthelytizing, as if the discussion of facts was analogous to the discussion of beliefs.

But it's not the discussion of facts that people are bothered by, despite the mischaracterization of the objections as such by you and others. Go back and look at the people sharing anecdotes in this thread. One poster describes a person making gagging sounds when meat is brought out while a guest in someone's home. Others described being insulted and called names. That's not a discussion of the facts; that's being insulted and called names. Please stop acting as if all that's being done is trying to expose others to a different viewpoint and meeting mindless resistance because people "just think meat is tasty!111". It is perfectly legitimate to ask not to be personally insulted, especially if that person is trying to convince you of something.

Malice
With a name like that...
Look, you're being willfully obtuse if you can't see why directly insulting and attacking someone isn't a useful or helpful way of approaching something you feel strongly about. Perhaps you support abortion; think about the anti-abortion people who call you a murderer and a monster. Do you like being called that? Do you feel it is fair for them to do so? Does it make you consider their position, and want to change your mind? If not, then please consider for a moment how someone who does not feel as you do about meat feels when you equate them with murderers.

You compare this problem to the struggle for rights by various groups. Fine, then consider this from a practical perspective, which was the point of the scenario about the neighbor given above. Your view is clearly a minority. You want change. You cold resort to violence, but that will not achieve what you want, and I doubt you want to do violence. So you're going to have to change people's minds. If you want legislation, you need people to support you. All people are saying there is that you really alienate people with that kind of rhetoric, just as anti-abortion people alienate people with theirs.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:36 PM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


I have been enlightened. If what klangklangston says is true and we meat eaters sound to vegetarians like evangelists sound to atheists, I apologize. I will never again proselytize for meat, unless someone comes up with some stupid myth like meat rotting in the colon or some such.

klnag, next time you come to San Francisco I will not mock you for asking where to get a nice veggie burrito, I'll personally make one for you1.

1. By the method of ordering a buche and carnitas super burrito, eating all the meat, rewrapping the remains and passing them on to you.
posted by dirty lies at 1:37 PM on May 29, 2009


So now we touch on the "but animals do it!" logic.

Well, non-human animals rape too. Should humans be allowed to rape also?


Both statements, your and his, are very flawed logic. Animals killing animals is not murder. If man killing animals is murder that would mean that humans and animals are equals in terms of the right to exist. How can you turn around and hold humans to this higher standard if they are equal?

Becuase we are not equal. And hence why killing animals is not murder. And why you are not out throwing yourself in front of the CEO of Burger King or Tyson Chicken.

The fact is we are animals. Complex Social animals. And social animals develop rules, taboos, and evolve social behaviors. But these rules do not preclude our biological drives. One such drive is to eat. And one such evolved social behavior is to eat meat. We will, out of necessity, evolve past eating meat. But we don't do it becuase of this tortured logic that killing animals is murder. But becuase we will have to.
posted by tkchrist at 1:41 PM on May 29, 2009 [4 favorites]


tkchrist, I think probably the majority of the world's population already exists on a mostly vegetarian diet.

In terms of the percent of protein most humans get from thier diet? Not precisely true. AFAIK most humans still get a lions share of their protein from animals sources. Seafood mostly.
posted by tkchrist at 1:43 PM on May 29, 2009


Malice, I think what they're getting at is that they're killing to eat. Which is in no way comparable to rape. I, for one, do not think anyone should be allowed to rape a steak, much less a cow. The first is just kind of disgusting, and the second is just wrong. Rape a watermelon if you feel the urge, but a steak? That's just not sanitary. Cook it first.

Vegetarianism I don't find too weird, though I'm a meat eater, but veganism? Particularly militant veganism? There are a series of vitamins and fatty acids necessary to the health of the body that vegetarianism may not omit, but veganism does. It's difficult to get those nutrients, and other components of the supplements may further impair the body's ability to get those nutrients. I've lived on a very-low-meat-consumption diet before, and it weakened me horribly.

I eat meat. I just do it responsibly - I get free-range meat when possible, refuse to eat young animals that haven't had the chance to grow up, and refuse to eat factory farmed animals.

But I'd stop the MEAT IS MURDER shit before I start lumping you in with the PETArds and ALFers that bomb research laboratories, and trust me, you do not want to get on the bad side of us researchers.
posted by kldickson at 1:44 PM on May 29, 2009


Malice
With a name like that...
Look, you're being willfully obtuse if you can't see why directly insulting and attacking someone isn't a useful or helpful way of approaching something you feel strongly about. Perhaps you support abortion; think about the anti-abortion people who call you a murderer and a monster. Do you like being called that? Do you feel it is fair for them to do so? Does it make you consider their position, and want to change your mind? If not, then please consider for a moment how someone who does not feel as you do about meat feels when you equate them with murderers.


1.) My nickname here is just a L4D handle that I transferred to other facets and forums. It really doesn't mean anything other than "This is my nickname here."

2.) I do, and it doesn't bother me. Sorry, it just doesn't. I realize some abortion is murder, but I also realize it is partial necessity depending on the woman, from circumstances born of health, rape, etc. I also realize that at certain times in history, eating meat was a necessity. In certain parts of the world, eating meat is a necessity at this moment. It, however, is not a necessity here, and probably to no one who has regular access to luxuries such as the internet.

You compare this problem to the struggle for rights by various groups. Fine, then consider this from a practical perspective, which was the point of the scenario about the neighbor given above. Your view is clearly a minority. You want change. You cold resort to violence, but that will not achieve what you want, and I doubt you want to do violence. So you're going to have to change people's minds. If you want legislation, you need people to support you. All people are saying there is that you really alienate people with that kind of rhetoric, just as anti-abortion people alienate people with theirs.

I think Snowfoam's post answered this already.
posted by Malice at 1:45 PM on May 29, 2009


Please understand, they (we) see it as murder. For those of you who say that it is 'your personal choice' what you eat, well, killing a human is a personal choice too. We just don't tolerate it in our society. Unfortunately, the law hasn't yet extended to protect non-human animals yet either. So at this junction, we have people who do it because they can and people who are working to change the laws and stop you from doing it all together.

...

I'm so sorry, but you should have to give up that steak you like so much. Not because being vegan is good for you, but because it just makes environmental sense. It would also free up tons of land to grow more food for more of the world.


Interestingly enough, these two are a touch at cross purposes.

To say meat is murder is a deontological rule. That is, refraining from eating meat / murder is the correct moral act independent of any possible outcomes, good or bad. The act of eating meat is murder (and the worst kind of 'murder,' as you've directly equated it with the murder of a human being), and such action is absolutely barred. So presumably, you would not be convinced that eating meat or killing animals is ok even if we showed you that it made people happier, or provided a net benefit to society, or increased utility or the social welfare; you would presumably view it no matter what as murder, and we don't murder people even if it would make society better. So if a deer population were threatening to destroy an ecosystem (and, eventually, its own population) through overgrazing, presumably you would reject any culling programs because the killing of those deer is murder, no matter the beneficial result.

Your second argument, however, is a teleological one. You're saying "give up meat because it is environmentally beneficial." Now correct moral acts here are ones that promote a specific value, namely protecting the environment. Under this logic, then, you'd presumably want to take those actions that are most likely to promote this value of protecting the environment. And I think its safe to say that the most effective way to do that is not by stopping the consumption of meat by the human population, but by drastically reducing the size of the human population itself. If you killed off billions of people, especially in developed countries, that's probably have an outstanding impact in terms of improving the environment.

So on the one hand, meat is murder, and we shouldn't do it, even if it is to the detriment of the environment. On the other we should promote policies that benefit environmental protection, and I submit that killing of huge numbers of humans would be the single best way of doing that.

Admittedly, these arguments are sort of the logical extremes of what you're saying, but then again, you ARE calling it "murder," which is pretty extreme in itself.

You might respond by saying that the second point is not so much preserving the environment for its own sake, but rather preserving it so that the world is a more pleasant place to live for humans (ie "free up tons of land to grow more food for more of the world.") So then your teleological goal then becomes something like "I want more people in the world to not starve / eat / thrive / live in a nice pollutant-free world." Which, if I can reduce it further, becomes, "I want more people to live more happily." So if this is your goal, what if people would be MUCH happier by eating meat as part of their diets? Or that certain acts of "murder" would in fact greatly increase the happiness of the human population at large? By refusing to allow murder (ie eating meat) as a fast moral rule, you're potentially undercutting the happiness of many people, which is ostensibly your teleological goal. So again, your two moral positions are at cross purposes.

Now, of course, having contradictory moral positions is SOP for the human population, so its not like you're more out of line than the average person or anything. But since this is Metafilter, and we're overthinking this plate of soybeans and foie gras, I figured I'd point it out.
posted by shen1138 at 1:45 PM on May 29, 2009 [4 favorites]


tkchrist, I have to ask - Just what were you eating? I occasionally hear about some people getting sick on a vegan or vegetarian diet and I suspect they just were not eating well, or were relying too heavily on something like carbs or soy.

It would be a gross waste our dear mefi's time for me to outline my diet of over four years of vegetarian eating. Initially most of my protein was from soy (I loves me some Tofu) and a mix of legumes and grains. I started developing cramps and... other problems... sinus problems. Over time it got worse and worse. I was told by a doctor I had a problem with soy. Which was a drag. So I went to a broader variety of dairy, nuts, and grains for my protein. Then I got lactose intolerance. SERIOUS frigg'n drag. So I went more to grains. After about a year of that I started getting worse sinus and GI problems. This whole time I lived with a woman who was an experienced vegetarian, nutrition nut and food Nazi. Didn't matter. I got so weak I ended up in the hospital. The ONLY time (up to that point) outside of broken bones I had to go to an emergency room because I collapsed on the set of a commercial. LGS. Immune system was fucked up and eventually I ended up, out of desperation, at an MD who was also flirted with Chinese Medicine/Naturopathy. He was also Asian and came right out and told me, instantly, it was my diet and to start eating meat again. So I did and with in a week I felt 100% better and the dietary problems have never really returned (except the lactose intolerance).
posted by tkchrist at 1:55 PM on May 29, 2009


The problem with the entire "Meat is Murder" slogan is that "murder" is a legal term for unlawful homicide. On the face of it, it's clearly inaccurate, since meat-eating is allowed by law. Even as a metaphor, it's still strange, as it's a tautology: Meat is Killing. Well, yeah, we have to kill things to eat them.

Perhaps they're just too attached to the alliteration, but a more logical slogan might be "factory farming is murder," since we can all agree that some deaths of humans as well, especially when done humanely, are to be sanctioned.

As a vegetarian, I personally don't eat meat, but damned if I'm going to say that humans in general shouldn't eat meat. There's nothing wrong with eating meat, it's not a moral problem at all. The problem is how we raise the animals prior to their death, the methods of their death, the lack of sanitary measures in the meat industry, and the lack of sustainability in the system. But that doesn't make all meat bad, it only makes some of our meat bad.
posted by explosion at 2:03 PM on May 29, 2009 [6 favorites]


There's nothing wrong with eating meat, it's not a moral problem at all.

Thank you so much for saying this. I'm trying not to get too involved in this thread, because I have a feeling I'd wind up trying to reply to everything said and then get all hot under the collar and fighty. But I'm really thankful for your comment.
posted by shmegegge at 2:10 PM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


The problem is how we raise the animals prior to their death, the methods of their death, the lack of sanitary measures in the meat industry, and the lack of sustainability in the system. But that doesn't make all meat bad, it only makes some of our meat bad.

The better slogan might then be "Factory Farming is Torture."
posted by shen1138 at 2:11 PM on May 29, 2009


The better slogan might then be "Factory Farming is Torture."

This is true. The statement above about the word "murder" is true, so that is, most likely, a better statement.

I'd also like to point out I've said over and over again I do not think eating meat is morally wrong. I think the morally unjustness of it all falls into how it is procured, and that our society as a whole cannot be sustained on meat-eating. Even fish, which is probably the 'best' dead animal you can eat, can't sustain us as it is, and it is only a portion of the meat that human beings eat.

It doesn't matter who you are, or what you eat, if you have any shred of brain activity going on upstairs you have to realize that factory farming and the farming/mass fishing industry is destroying us.

Whether you choose to care about it is your deal, but you have to at least recognize it.

That being said, I am not sure I can respond to every post since my last visit that has been directed at me but a quick try:

tkchrist
, yeah, grains and gluten-containing products in general tend to make me ill. Soy also has an effect on me, all be it a different one. I try to stick to plain old fruits and veggies as much as entirely possible, although I LOVE tofu and soymilk. I'm sorry your experience was negative, I truly am.


But I'd stop the MEAT IS MURDER shit before I start lumping you in with the PETArds and ALFers that bomb research laboratories, and trust me, you do not want to get on the bad side of us researchers.
posted by kldickson at 1:44 PM on May 29 [+] [!]


Bring it on. ;)

--

On the subject of rape: As far as the definition of rape goes, to force to have sexual intercourse, you only really need to watch any documentary on animals to see how often it happens. There are those that are willing, and there are those that are unwilling. The only difference is that it is not a moral issue with non-human animals.

Also, non-human animals do murder for pleasure. Orca and other dolphins especially. Again, the only difference is that there is no moral issue with non-human animals.

Although I recently read about and watched a study on a certain type of ape or chimp (which I can't remember) that did instill some morals in their societies. For example, if one was being selfish with food and not share with everyone else, he would get a good beating. It extended beyond just that, but there were serious signs of morals there. So maybe some animal societies do have morals and enforce them in their own way that we wouldn't notice or understand normally.
posted by Malice at 2:30 PM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


The better slogan might then be Factory Farming is Torture

This is true.

I look at it this way: the aim of torture is to induce suffering and extreme stress. Both of these will significantly reduce yield, which is totally antithetical to an industrial operation; torturing the animals would reduce profit margins and would provide for a huge competitive advantage to a non-torturing competitor. So you have a choice: you torture the animals, which makes your farm economically unsustainable, or you collude with all of your competitors to also torture, which is an anti-trust violation, not to mention bad PR if it ever leaked (and it would.) Thus, it is to no one's advantage to torture anything.

I would suggest the alternative slogan, "All Things Considered, Factory Farming is Maybe Not The Best Way of Doing Things," but I can certainly see how that wouldn't go as well on a bumper sticker.
posted by JohnFredra at 2:36 PM on May 29, 2009


the human body does function better with the levels of protein ingestion that are only naturally attainable through meat if you exercise and lift weights regularly.

Anecdotes blah blah blah, but I'm a vegetarian who exercises, lifts weights regularly, and trains in tap dance and was asked by more than one nurse at immediately following giving birth if I was a long-distance runner because my heart rate, blood pressure, and other vital signs were so freakin' awesome. Did I mention I've never had a protein shake or taken supplement powders or ingested any of the other things I'm supposedly supposed to be eating (in your world) to sustain my protein levels? From experience, I'd maintain that it's entirely possible to be athletic and get what you need from a vegetarian diet, and I'd also guess that those who can't are probably doing it wrong somewhere along the line.

Then again, I don't give a shit what anyone else eats!
posted by Never teh Bride at 2:46 PM on May 29, 2009


I'm so sorry, but you should have to give up that steak you like so much

What about chicken, is that ok? Or a steak, once a way, is that alright? Seafood? Please don't tell I have to give up seafood.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:55 PM on May 29, 2009


sineater: Do we have a right to eat whatever we want?

(A) Eponysterical!
(B) And by the way, I'll have whatever you're having.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:11 PM on May 29, 2009


I still stand by my two plate solution. You eat what you want off of yours. I'll eat what I want off of mine. Then there can be whirled peas (on your plate).
posted by srboisvert at 3:14 PM on May 29, 2009



What about chicken, is that ok? Or a steak, once a way, is that alright? Seafood? Please don't tell I have to give up seafood.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:55 PM on May 29 [+] [!]


You'll also have to give up cake, and your new Coffee Master 4000.
posted by Malice at 3:24 PM on May 29, 2009


Is it okay to eat an animal that has raped you?
posted by found missing at 3:26 PM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


"I have been enlightened. If what klangklangston says is true and we meat eaters sound to vegetarians like evangelists sound to atheists, I apologize. I will never again proselytize for meat, unless someone comes up with some stupid myth like meat rotting in the colon or some such.

klnag, next time you come to San Francisco I will not mock you for asking where to get a nice veggie burrito, I'll personally make one for you1.
"

The dirty secret of these conversations is that the vast, vast, vast majority of people are fairly reasonable and OK to talk to, if a little ignorant, about food and religion. But for every vegan making gagging noises, I've got a meat-eater trying to shove a hamburger into my face ("Don't you really want to eat that?"). I tend to think that being an asshole precedes declaiming on other people's diets, but I'll also say that this culture is a carni-normative one as much as it is a Christ-normative one (maybe moreso), so there are a fair number of times when someone getting all aggro about how much meat they eat is totally noticeable to folks who don't eat meat, but not so much to folks who do. It's like how as soon as you're eating with someone who demands grace, you realize, oh, yeah, I'm different. Luckily, I've been vegetarian so long now that it doesn't bug me, and I certainly have no real desire to convert people (if I did, I'd have a lot more interest in the recurrent "But what DO you eat?" conversations), but yeah, it's there.
posted by klangklangston at 3:40 PM on May 29, 2009


Hmm. I've been a veggie and an omni and not once has someone from the other camp shoved something into my face or made gagging noises or the like.

As only one example, I once sat down to dinner and drinks with a few friends and one of them actually took one of the Skinny Bitch books out of her fucking purse and read passages at me because I was eating meat.

Have you considered that maybe your friend is an asshole?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:45 PM on May 29, 2009 [3 favorites]


PETA: People for Eating Tasty Animals.

I been doing a low-carb/Paleo diet for a while now, and I can attest to the health benefit, heart-health benefit (blood work), and weight loss benefit.

I actually just ordered 15lbs of Primal cut from US Wellness, and it's sitting right next to me in a cooler (had it delivered to work). (I don't do raw meat diet, too hard-core for me) Grassfed, freerange, hormone free, drug free, un-tortured tasty cow.

I can also attest to the thinness of vegan,vegetarian, and raw-vegan friends, how they look healthy but can't keep up with me in anything rigorous. (i.e. surfing, rock climbing, Jiu jitsu, etc.) They are exception to the rule, but it's mostly cause they are so freakin' light.

So, I say vegetarians and vegans can eat what they want, just don't bother us with your morals. Those are your beliefs, and I have my beliefs and facts (medical facts).

Vegetarians/Vegans who preach we are mightier then thou are no worse then those people that come up to you in middle of the street to say "Have you found Jesus today?"
posted by countzen at 3:50 PM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


I am personally on a low-carb vegan diet.

yeah, grains and gluten-containing products in general tend to make me ill. Soy also has an effect on me, all be it a different one. I try to stick to plain old fruits and veggies as much as entirely possible, although I LOVE tofu and soymilk.


I thought calling meat-eaters "murderers" was alienating, but man, this description of your diet ... whoa. This sounds fucking miserable, it really does. I don't think that about vegetarian diets in general, but a low-carb, gluten-free, low-soy vegan diet -- just whoa. If that shit were legislated, I'd go Unabomber.
posted by palliser at 4:18 PM on May 29, 2009 [3 favorites]


Some of the foods I eat are Tofu, Seitan, Broccoli, All manner of legumes, Kale, etc etc.

There is a huge list of protein containing foods and some of the ones listed above have even MORE protein than steak, and are more easily digested than meats.


don't want to beat a dead horse, but I hear stuff like this quite frequently from vegetarians. None of these foods, with the exception of seitan, have a lot of protein, and certainly not as much as a steak.

Tofu: mostly fat, very little protein by weight:
http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calories-in-firm-raw_f-Y2lkPTM3NDU0JmJpZD0xJmZpZD02OTg1NyZlaWQ9NDI3MjUwNjMxJnBvcz0ma2V5PXRvZnU.html

Broccoli (very little of anything)
http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calories-in-broccoli-raw-edible-portion_f-Y2lkPTE0Nzc1JmJpZD0xJmZpZD02MzMzNCZlaWQ9NDI3MjUxMDQyJnBvcz0ma2V5PWJyb2Njb2xp.html

2g of protein in a cup, vs. ~30-40g in 4oz of steak

Similar info for kale

Nutrition info for lentils, as an example of a legume:
http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calories-in-lentils-boiled-no-salt_f-Y2lkPTM0NjQ2JmJpZD0xJmZpZD02ODUwMCZlaWQ9NDI3MjU0MzU1JnBvcz0ma2V5PWxlbnRpbHM.html

Mostly carbs

Seitan is the only real high protein food on your list.

You've grouped some high carb foods, vegetables with very little of anything (carbs proteins or fats), with a single high protein food and claimed they're all not only high protein, but comparable to steak, which really makes me question how much you know about nutrition. Don't want to bash you, but your info is not correct.
posted by I like to eat meat at 4:38 PM on May 29, 2009


Try dry roasted or steamed edamame, it's rich in protein.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:19 PM on May 29, 2009


Dude, you either can't read or are being willfully stupid—tofu has roughly double the amount of protein than fat per ounce (4.5g to 2.5g) and 1.2g of carbs, and steak has roughly 8.6g of protein and 1.9g fat per ounce.

Their legume/bean info is totally wonky, in that there really shouldn't be that much variation in beans between manufacturers (canned, boiled), but they give from 2.2g per ounce of protein to 1.3 g/oz; roughly triple that in carbs. Seitan is 6g/oz., with basically nothing else (fat, carbs).

But if you start moving into things like, say, the Tofurky Italian Sausages, you get 8.2g/oz. of protein, which is barely less than steak (one kind of steak—sirloin, broiled).

Given that the average American is pulling down too much protein, and that you're an outlier by being a bodybuilder, we can say that the small differential in protein is easily made up by a more balanced diet and isn't all that important in the long run to everyone who's not BLASTING HIS GLOIDS AND ROCKIN' HIS TRIGS WITH EXTREEEEME REPS!
posted by klangklangston at 5:27 PM on May 29, 2009


How much gloid could a gloidchuck gloid?
posted by JohnFredra at 5:59 PM on May 29, 2009


About this whole "vegetarians are weaklings" thing: it's utter B.S.

I can happily accept that some people do not do feel healthy on a vegetarian diet, (my husband is a prime example) but accepting the fact that we are all individuals who have differing reactions to the things we put in our bodies needs to work both ways in this discussion.

I've been a vegetarian since 1985 and qualified for the Olympic trials as a marathoner when I was in my mid thirties, training on a protein supplement-free diet. I'm in my forties now and still have nurses and doctors ask me if I'm an athlete of some sort because my blood pressure, cholesterol, heart rate levels etc. are so good. A friend of mine has been a vegetarian (and primarily a vegan) for a number of years and he just recently won a national cross country championship.

Some people who adopt a vegetarian diet do so for unhealthy reasons (obsessive compulsive disorders, eating disorders) and subsequently have terrible eating habits and suffer health consequences that have nothing to do with a lack of meat in their diet. They are the exception, not the rule. It's entirely possible for lots and lots of people to be both vegetarians *and* highly trained athletes.

It's rude for people to proselytize no matter what side of the argument they are on, but in my experience it's the meat eaters who tend to feel threatened and go on the defensive when they discover I don't eat meat. The vegans I've known never harassed me about my choice to continue eating eggs and dairy products.
posted by stagewhisper at 6:12 PM on May 29, 2009 [2 favorites]


It is noteworthy that while many cultures eat semi-raw or raw beef or lamb (steak grilled rare, steak tartare, kibbe) or raw fish, I can't think of any that eat raw poultry. Granted, raw chicken (still pink and transparent) is especially disgusting now that we know how the chicken processing industry handles chicken, but it also seems to be intrinsically disgusting. Humans also find rotten meat disgusting, in contrast with birds and animals that evolved to thrive on it (vultures, hyenas).

Polarizing the debate into obligate carnivores vs. vegans is unhelpful. I eat a vegan breakfast and lunch most days, and meat at dinnertime only. I can't stand breakfast meats at 7:00 a.m.
posted by bad grammar at 6:51 PM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


It is noteworthy that while many cultures eat semi-raw or raw beef or lamb (steak grilled rare, steak tartare, kibbe) or raw fish, I can't think of any that eat raw poultry.

Raw poultry is used in Japanese cuisine: chicken sashimi.
posted by Mummy of a Lady Named Jemutesonekh at 7:36 PM on May 29, 2009


Also, I think one of the Ethiopian places in my old neighborhood offered a raw option for its chicken dishes.
posted by Mummy of a Lady Named Jemutesonekh at 7:42 PM on May 29, 2009


Screw lawn chairs! I'm getting a high horse.

Oooh. I can see my sense or moral superiority from up here. And the roof of my house.
posted by willmize at 8:08 PM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


Hey, here's another bit of anecdotal evidence! Proves everything, right?

At twenty-two I became a vegetarian. Fifteen years later I gradually started eating meat (eggs, then fish, then chicken, then...well, almost anything). So. Fifteen years of eating veggie. Never got sick. Fifteen years of eating meat (and plant food). I haven't gotten sick in thirty years. So I figure it doesn't make any difference what you eat.

You gotta eat lots of vegetables, though, cuz they taste great. And you have to exercise! Stop playing video games and working in a cubicle! Try the Paleo exercise program. That makes more difference than what the hell you eat.
posted by kozad at 9:16 PM on May 29, 2009 [1 favorite]


klangklangston, you're making my brain hurt.

you know that fat has 9 cal/g and protein has 4 cal/g right? So if you ate 10g of fat and 10g of protein, you just ate a little more than 2/3 of your calories as fat....so tofu is more fat than protein (2.5g fat = 22.5 fat cal, 4.5g protein = 18 protein cal). 25% more fat than protein, in fact.

Compare that to your own numbers for steak: 1.9g fat = 17.1 fat cal, 8.6g protein = 34.4 protein cal, so steak has 100% more protein than fat.

how is that even remotely similar? one is 25% more fat than protein, the other is 100% more protein than fat....the numbers look small because you're only talking about an oz., but it's the proportions and caloric density that matter (even if broccoli has like 2g of protein per cup and no fat, it's still a bad protein source because you'd have to eat 15+ cups to equal one chicken breast)

anyways, i'm enjoying the rich irony of you resorting to childish stereotypes about "dumb bodybuilders" when you can't seem to do simple math correctly.
posted by I like to eat meat at 10:07 PM on May 29, 2009


How many people have gotten fat on tofu and died of a heart attack as a result of eating too much tofu?
posted by Malice at 10:30 PM on May 29, 2009


I have!
posted by Joseph Gurl at 11:36 PM on May 29, 2009


i like to eat meat:

I don't know what tofu you're eating, but a brand I regularly eat has in 3oz: 4g fat (36 calories), 5g carbs (20 calories), 14g protein (56 calories). That's 3.5 grams of protein to gram of fat (your example appears to be 1.8:1). The comparison to steak is kind of silly: there are so many different cuts of beef some with more or less fat. For steak I found a 4.1:1 ratio (again, grams protein to grams fat), a 3.5:1 and a 1.7:1 ratio (no, I'm not kidding). If you look up non-steak beef, you can find ratios like 1.3:1 (brisket), 0.7:1 (ribs!), 1.2:1 (85% lean ground beef), and so on.

And as far as red meat goes, the health issue for many people isn't necessarily fat or protein per se, but saturated fat and the density of calories in meat. You can eat a lot more calories than you expect eating meat (and then still possibly eat a bunch of bread or potatoes or something). On the other hand, a massive bowl of beans and rice can have surprisingly few calories for the volume of food. So for *some* people, it might be easier to not consume too many calories just by eating less meat.

And, in any case, a healthy adult who isn't training for something that requires a lot of muscle building needs somewhere between 40 to 60 grams of protein a day (depending on fitness level, gender, age, etc.) A single 10 ounce package of the aforementioned brand gets you to that level. Or like 5oz of sirloin steak. Or 10oz of that 85% lean (though quite lot of fat there).

Though obviously this is all silly and everyone should just eat beans and rice. ;)

(I really love beans.)
posted by R343L at 11:45 PM on May 29, 2009


(even if broccoli has like 2g of protein per cup and no fat, it's still a bad protein source because you'd have to eat 15+ cups to equal one chicken breast)

Yes, that's a fair bit of broccoli, but your pooping experience the next morning will be a religious experience.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:51 PM on May 29, 2009 [4 favorites]


five fresh fish, that cracked me up.

Just thought you should know.
posted by Malice at 12:08 AM on May 30, 2009


"Are Humans Natural Meat Eaters?"

That, of course, is why the traditional Okinawan diet -- which is relatively low in meat consumption, most of which is fish -- is linked to the highest longevity on the planet... and the people who live longest in the US are Seventh Day Adventists... who are vegetarians.

I wrote a very detailed comment about all of this awhile back, which specifically points out what is currently known about our evolutionary ancestor's diet, and that also lays out the facts that diets high in fat, protein, and processed carbs are linked to heart disease, cancer, and diabetes, while pointing out the fact that diets which aren't have been shown to completely reverse heart disease and diabetes.

I'm not saying that humans don't or can't evolve to eat such a diet... but I am willing to bet that you're not an eskimo, and that your ancestors haven't spent the time lately in coping with such a diet. As much as we deride carbohydrates today, it should be pointed out that the Okinawan traditional diet contains carbs in the form of yams... along with all the healthy fiber associated with such a diet too. Yams are an excellent source of carbs, in that they have a high associated fiber content, but the fact is, every ancient civilization thrived on a particular energy-rich staple, such as wheat, rice, corn, etc... and if you eat those carbs in their least processed form, as designed, you will get the full advantage of the associated fiber and nutrients.

Do this, eat your veggies, and put meat where it belongs, at no more than about 5% of total calories, and you're likely to gradually become leaner and more healthy, tacking on another 5+ years to your lifespan, while greatly improving the quality of your life when you get near the end.
posted by markkraft at 2:59 AM on May 30, 2009


Or, a short answer.

Are humans natural meat eaters? Not exclusively, no. Their ancestors were primarily vegetarian, with additional termites, grubs, etc. in the diet. Their brains seem to have evolved thanks to high omega-3 diets, which means termites, grubs, and probably whatever they could harvest from a coastal/river environment.

That said, most meat nowadays is not grassfed / free range, but is fed meal that is high in omega-6 ( bad ) and very low in omega-3 (good) fats. Even if you eat meats, you're probably eating the wrong meats, fed the wrong way.

In short, it's not that humans aren't meat eaters or that meat isn't potentially important. It's that evolutionarily, they're still learning to cope with it, and it's causing serious health problems when consumed to excess... and excess is far below what most Westerners eat.

The same can be said about sugars, dairy fat, protein -- fully grown adults don't need much, and the growth they cause feeds the potential for cancer -- and refined carbs, stripped of their natural fiber.

In truth, the ideal amount of processed, refined carbs that should be in the diet is none.
posted by markkraft at 3:23 AM on May 30, 2009


Hi, I am close to being raw paleo. Guess what? Aside from a serving of high quality wild seafood every day and some raw eggs, I eat mostly fruit and salad. Some people actually think I'm a vegan...until they come home with me and notice the raw eggs I'm eating. I guess the point I'm making is that you don't have to scarf down lots of meat to fit into this dietary group. I don't believe in relying on staple foods.

I did it for health reasons and I have been very very happy with the results. I do still eat gunk like cake sometimes, but I'm only human.

I also know of many in the raw community who are vegans and get very little protein and who are good athletes (durianrider.blogspot.com/).

I have read a lot about the evolutionary of human diets in the past few years and I've come to the conclusion that well...it's pretty hard to tell what we are adapted to and if that even matters.



But in recent years, he has come to believe that the implications of this molecular difference are much wider. He has built up a range of evidence that potentially links Neu5Gc, a so-called sialic acid, to chronic disease.

This is because the animal version is absorbed by humans as a result of eating red meat and milk products, and there is evidence that the body views it as an invader...


The first evidence that this particular molecule is of unique importance to humans came a decade ago. Prof Varki's team, along with Prof Elaine Muchmore, also of the University of California, studied blood from chimps, bonobos, gorillas, orangutans and humans.

They found that we are the only primates whose bodies do not produce Neu5Gc - although further research established that our Neanderthal cousins were missing this version of the sugar acid, too.

posted by melissam at 8:21 AM on May 30, 2009


"so tofu is more fat than protein (2.5g fat = 22.5 fat cal, 4.5g protein = 18 protein cal). 25% more fat than protein, in fact."

No, tofu has more calories from fat in that example, but is not more fat than protein. Those are two different claims, and that you don't understand that means you should probably stay away from nutritional discussions.
posted by klangklangston at 8:44 AM on May 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


but the inuit are going to keep wearing skin and eating raw meat for the forseeable future, . . . as they always have.

I'm real late to this thread, but klanawa, you nailed it. At least until global climate change turns the tundra into wetlands and they're growing wheat outside of Yellowknife. Which may not be that long. Several elders have told me flatly that the children must learn to hunt because soon that's all they may have, and they pity those of us who don't know how to hunt, and whose hunting grounds are the aisles of a supermarket. From several thousand years in the Arctic, they know and fear famine inchoately. Most of us never give a thought to where our next meal is coming from other than to debate the cuisine. That is very unnatural. And the collective delusion that food will always be there may be serving we well off southerners very poorly. Fear of hunger is a good fear to have, as important to human survival as attraction to beauty.

I'm just about to head to the Arctic, where I expect to eat mostly raw fresh or frozen meat -- mostly caribou, this time of year -- for the next several weeks. I've done it several times now, and not only does it not make me sick; I come back feeling like a million bucks, and everything I eat down south tastes like mush and chemicals for weeks afterwards. Anecdotal, but there you have it. Of course my buddies up there also like Doritos and RockStar Energy Drink, but whatever (although they know that diet is especially toxic for indigenous people, like many of the rest of us they have to struggle with the attractiveness of convenient empty calories). Never tried a seal heart, but raw frozen caribou stomach, with the fermented arctic grasses still inside, is a bracing treat. First time I tried it I compared it to mainlining arugula.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:01 AM on May 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


melissam, I would never in a million years, vegan or omni, ingest raw egg.

What about salmonella and other bacteria? I've gotten sick from it before, directly from egg, several times. More so than any meat.
posted by Malice at 12:57 PM on May 30, 2009


Great, now I'm all hungry. But I feel too guilty to eat anything.

Beer it is.
posted by Davenhill at 2:59 PM on May 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm late to the show, and didn't read every comment, but this is a worthy discussion of the evolutionary advantage of cooking food, and meat in particular. The interviewee has tried it, but found the chimpanzee diet wanting.
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 6:29 PM on May 30, 2009


I'm a fifth level vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 7:58 AM on May 31, 2009



I thought calling meat-eaters "murderers" was alienating, but man, this description of your diet ... whoa. This sounds fucking miserable, it really does. I don't think that about vegetarian diets in general, but a low-carb, gluten-free, low-soy vegan diet -- just whoa. If that shit were legislated, I'd go Unabomber.
posted by palliser at 4:18 PM on May 29


I just now saw this comment, sorry for taking so long to respond.

Yes, I totally get that, and yes, it is difficult at times. Luckily I enjoy cooking and preparing food and can get pretty creative in what I can make that doesn't include those things. Of course, I try to eat raw as much as possible because it is what is best for my body (not everyone's necessarily, but mine, yes.)

There are times when money is tight (or non-existent) and we have to go back to eating those carbs, but we try to avoid it whenever we can. Mostly because I get really tired when I eat carbs/gluten.

And let me say this now, I am NOT skinny.. not even slightly.. so don't go thinkin' I'm starving, LOL.
posted by Malice at 12:28 PM on May 31, 2009


I thought calling meat-eaters "murderers" was alienating, but man, this description of your diet ... whoa. This sounds fucking miserable, it really does. I don't think that about vegetarian diets in general, but a low-carb, gluten-free, low-soy vegan diet -- just whoa. If that shit were legislated, I'd go Unabomber.
posted by palliser at 4:18 PM on May 29

^^^^

That comment. I don't know why it didn't post.
posted by Malice at 12:28 PM on May 31, 2009


« Older Soaring, Cryptography and Nuclear Weapons   |   It's All Fun and Games Until... Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments



Post