so what is it or r u just going to ignore me ? i thought we were friends even tho i am ur ex?

July 15, 2009 4:56 AM

"I'm dressed as a piece of chocolate because you're allergic to chocolate. But I'm a piece of chocolate you can have!" Psychotic Letters from Men.
posted by Optimus Chyme (159 comments total)

Ugh...the first one is a total buzzkill: "Letter from mentally ill guy, eager-to-please guy living life of quiet desperation." I know it was presented as such (though I don't know how sensitive it really is to splash the guy's emails over the web for public dissection and entertainment purposes), but a bummer of a way to start my morning.
posted by availablelight at 5:08 AM on July 15

the first one is a total buzzkill

In that case, you probably want the one where a guy uses Photoshop to superimpose his penis over a woman's mouth (NSFW), and, upon sending it to her, is shocked that she found this offensive.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:14 AM on July 15

Lemme just check my Sent Items.
posted by turgid dahlia at 5:14 AM on July 15 [14 favorites]

In that case, you probably want the one where a guy uses Photoshop to superimpose his penis over a woman's mouth (NSFW), and, upon sending it to her, is shocked that she found this offensive.

Yeah, totally interested in that inspiration story.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:17 AM on July 15

Thanks Optimus! I got additionally discouraged when the second one was just, "Letter from whiny, passive aggressive, garden-variety underemployed pothead", but the one you linked is full of win:

"Only a couple weeks after meeting Sarah, Bob was apparently hanging out with his best female friend when he sent Sarah the following text:

Bob: Do you want to have kids?

Sarah was a bit taken aback. She did, but certainly not his kids. She didn't know where he was going with this, so she texted back:

Sarah: I haven't decided yet.

Bob: My best friend says that since you're 30, you shouldn't have kids past the age of 35."

And of course,

Sarah remains single today, but she always carries a little memento of her brief experience with Bob.

"Now when people ask me why I'm single, I just show them Bob's photo."
posted by availablelight at 5:20 AM on July 15

Bummer or not, this is awesome. Dudes can be complete fucking creeps but thankfully act as blueprints for how not to act.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 5:20 AM on July 15

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily? (Are there creepy birds, monkeys and beetles [to their prospective mates]?) I guess in every generation it makes sense to try new things, in case one of them turns out to work. "I'm not getting laid, I should try something new. Hey, I know! I'll whistle at hot women from a construction site!"

Presumably in a population of mostly women and a few men, very few of them would be creeps.
posted by DU at 5:29 AM on July 15 [4 favorites]

I've put a few keywords in the blog search.


...just 'cause, y'know?
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 5:29 AM on July 15

In that case, you probably want the one where a guy uses Photoshop to superimpose his penis over a woman's mouth (NSFW)

The especially awful part is how he flipped the photo so his penis looks impossibly symmetrical.

Talk about taking all the romance out.
posted by rokusan at 5:31 AM on July 15 [6 favorites]

r u just going to ignore me ? i thought we were friends even tho i am ur ex?

Advice to all future AskMe posters: if your man writes like an eleven year old girl, DTMFA kthx.
posted by rokusan at 5:33 AM on July 15

Wow, the author of that blog seems intent on adopting a tone that will come off as assholish even in comparison with stalkers. Quite an achievement.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 5:37 AM on July 15 [13 favorites]

I don't know, that Bob guy sounds like marriage material to me. Better get him while he's hot girls. Bob is concerned on behalf of your reproductive needs ladies. That's all it's is and all it' for- jus for decorations. They go WHOO WHOO!
posted by nola at 5:40 AM on July 15 [3 favorites]

Somewhat related: jezabel.com's Crap Email from a Dude feature. This one is a personal favorite.
posted by availablelight at 5:40 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

Is there a "Psychotic Letters From Women" repository?

Actually, what would be interesting would be a "Psychotic Letters from Children" collection. Or even a "Psychotic Letters from Grilled Cheese Sandwiches" website.
posted by WalterMitty at 5:43 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

Eeeww!

And mind you, we're not talking about foggy webcams and protein-spackled keyboards; the two were strictly friendly acquaintances.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 5:45 AM on July 15

The whywomenhatemen sistersite is, imo, a much more entertaining read.
posted by TomMelee at 5:46 AM on July 15

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily?

Not only haven't they been weeded out, they seem to be quite robust. At the end of the "this image has been 'shopped" post, there's a lengthy series of comments about how common it is for men to treat whipping it out for some repulsed girl they've just met like it's displaying some sort of plumage in a delicate mating dance.
posted by availablelight at 5:46 AM on July 15

Meh. I've sent creepier.
posted by ND¢ at 5:47 AM on July 15 [6 favorites]

They go a little too heavy on the backstory on these. I think the site would be better if they kept the exposition to a minimum and let the crazy speak for itself.
posted by Dr-Baa at 5:50 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

I'm gonna go on record as stating that I think this blog is an elaborate ruse on the author's part to pull down some tang.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 5:51 AM on July 15 [4 favorites]

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily?

Because historically women haven't had much choice in these matters so if anything those traits increased. Plus evolution doesn't strictly work that way i.e. negative traits can stick around as long as they don't kill large numbers of people.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:53 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

Also, these tactics only need to ever work once for the creepy-gene to be passed on.
posted by WalterMitty at 5:55 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

The amateur psychological analysis is a bit much, too. It's pretty obvious in the first story that Tristan has some issues relating to people.

The first story is kind of a downer. I could see how PLFM would be like Intervention - I start watching it because I think, 'Oh, yeah! This is going to be crazy!' and then I'm just horrified by how addicted the people on the show are and how they're ruining relationships with family / friends.
posted by glaucon at 5:55 AM on July 15

my favorite part of that photoshop post is that his penis is all tiny and gray

damn son that busted-ass johnson make you look like darkseid takin a ice-water bath
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:56 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

That is kind of a messed up looking penis isn't it? Looks like I imagine Mr. Freeze's penis would look. The comic book one, not Arnold Schwarzenegger.
posted by ND¢ at 5:59 AM on July 15

"No hitting below the belt Batman! I'm . . . I'm all kinds of messed up down there."
posted by ND¢ at 6:04 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

Plus evolution doesn't strictly work that way i.e. negative traits can stick around as long as they don't kill large numbers of people.

Anything that prevents reproduction will get removed, it doesn't have to be death.

Also, these tactics only need to ever work once for the creepy-gene to be passed on.

Correction: Anything that has a lower reproductive success rate will get removed, it doesn't have to be zero.

Actually, wait. A non-zero success rate could succeed. When few women chose creepy men, those men are easy to obtain. So it would be in the interest of other women to chose those men and avoid any potential competition. Therefore: Women! Stop choosing creepy men! It may seem easy now, but think of future generations.

(That was a pretty long distance to go to blame the victim....)
posted by DU at 6:07 AM on July 15

Mean mocky gender-bashing public-humiliation snarkfests are part of the web, to be sure, but I don't think they are the best of the web.
posted by headnsouth at 6:07 AM on July 15 [5 favorites]

The story of Rick and the resulting 600-comment thread about creepy customers/clients makes me...I dunno, vomit or despair or something. So awful.
posted by mediareport at 6:07 AM on July 15 [3 favorites]

Plus evolution doesn't strictly work that way i.e. negative traits can stick around as long as they don't kill large numbers of people.
posted by Brandon Blatcher

And the positive traits that kill large numbers of people survive.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 6:09 AM on July 15

The common denominator that all these tone deaf males seem to possess is that they face utter, complete, and total rejection with the attitude that if they just change their attack slightly or try again later they might succeed. It's like they heard that adage that when dating you have to just try the odds and keep trying, eventually you'll find something that sparks. But they misconstrued it to mean that it's okay to continue jackhammering away at one person rather than understanding that they need to give up and meet new people.
posted by Rhomboid at 6:12 AM on July 15

Presumably in a population of mostly women and a few men, very few of them would be creeps.

Really? Because I would guess the opposite would happen. If there are far more females looking for mates that would allow the males to slack off and be repulsive jerks while the ladies would have to try harder to be the chosen one-- or rather one of the chosen as undoubtedly the few males would have harems.

I had my own psychotic letter when I was being stalked, which to this day (20 years later) I can still see even if I can't recall the actual message. It was a grimy piece of ripped-out notebook paper with little drawings in the margins. The note was written in pencil with a great many smudged spots where words had been partially erased. The "theme" of the letter was cats, as in: I pussy-cat meow you, you are my kitty cat etc. etc.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:14 AM on July 15

I was once on the receiving end of letters like these, when I foolishly tried to explain it was over, the conversation ended with him grabbing my throat, cops being called, and he being served a restricting order... he violated the order by sending me letters like theses for one year.....how he just wanted to "help" me....be carefull ladies.
posted by jek at 6:14 AM on July 15

mediareport: Can't you vomit in despair? That's what I always do.....
posted by aramaic at 6:16 AM on July 15

I have daughters. I hope they turn out gay, sometimes.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:18 AM on July 15 [8 favorites]

What motivates us to pursue someone who lives at home with their parents, drinks all the time, has no motivation to do anything with their lives, and never has any goddamn fucking money?

Perhaps you're exactly what these guys take you for?

I'm disturbed by how often money pops up in those articles, and by how often the vagina is used in metaphors of reward and punishment.
posted by 0xdeadc0de at 6:19 AM on July 15

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily?

Because this supposes that there are no creepy women. From personal experience, I can say that yes, creepy women are out there in equal abundance. When they match up with creepy guys, natural selection kicks back with a cigarette, well satisfied.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:21 AM on July 15 [12 favorites]

The story of Rick and the resulting 600-comment thread about creepy customers/clients makes me...I dunno, vomit or despair or something. So awful.

I think for women (and by "women", I mean me, and probably lots of the women commenting), there is a bit of a group therapy aspect to this whole blog: "You mean, it's not just me?" I know for a long time I felt like there must be something about me personally, something I was doing wrong (other than having a default setting of "not bitchy to awkward people"), that creepy guys 25 years my senior were convinced I was in love with them/wanted to rent an hourly motel room with them, that a guy (or two or three) I just made eye contact or a line or two of small talk with in class or a coffee shop (and could barely remember doing so) with would end up fuming--or nearly in tears--insisting that I had led him on, clearly wanted him badly, was toying with him, etc. And while reasonably attractive and engaging, I'm no model-perfect 10, by any means. (If anything, it was worse during my more awkward years, when the sense of entitlement on the part of these men also had a nasty undertone--stated directly or not--of, "who are you to turn me down? You should be grateful for the attention.") So I'm glad stories about how common these "misunderstandings" (and the attendant lashing out/bad behavior from the rejected party) really are.
posted by availablelight at 6:25 AM on July 15 [20 favorites]

I'm disturbed by how often money pops up in those articles, and by how often the vagina is used in metaphors of reward and punishment.
posted by 0xdeadc0de at 6:19 AM on July 15

I counted one story in which someone complained about a cheap date, and in the comments, it was pretty well agreed that both writer and writee left a little something to be desired. What exactly, are you getting at?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:26 AM on July 15

Okay, yeah, but you know what's really creepy? Psychotic letters from women.
posted by Item at 6:30 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily?

I'm totally with ya on that DU... and furthermore the question it makes me ask is, how can civilization exist when there are evidently so many people who allow their interactions with other people to be like this?
posted by XMLicious at 6:31 AM on July 15

That is to say these things work both ways. I don't think that males have a monopoly in this market.
posted by Item at 6:31 AM on July 15

For some reason, I think Psychotic Letters From Women would be far more interesting. I mean, we're all familiar with the typical crap guys do, because it's typical. Women tend to be much more ... imaginative when they're psychotic.

Oh, who am I fooling, we all know that women are never psychotic or do or say or write psychotic things.
posted by Afroblanco at 6:32 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily?

Human sexual behavior is complex; I personally suspect these kinds of maladaptive tactics are more the result of poor social skills than any specific "creep gene".
posted by homuncula at 6:34 AM on July 15 [4 favorites]

If there are far more females looking for mates that would allow the males to slack off and be repulsive jerks while the ladies would have to try harder to be the chosen one

Repulsive jerks, yes. Stalker creeps, no.
posted by DU at 6:34 AM on July 15

how can civilization exist when there are evidently so many people who allow their interactions with other people to be like this?

Who said civilization exists? We're just animals with better housing and food sources.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:36 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

The internet is for pictures of cute animals. It is not to be used to remind me how pathetic people are. And let me say that I consider that blog's proprietor, the men who sent those letters, and the women who dated them all pathetic.
posted by dortmunder at 6:37 AM on July 15 [4 favorites]

All these stories are evidence of how mental health is not taken seriously, and what the consequences are. I guess it is no surprise that suicide/depression/violence rates for men are so high. The existence and tone of the website is probably evidence as to why this is not going to get better any time in the foreseeable future.
posted by TheyCallItPeace at 6:38 AM on July 15 [6 favorites]

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily?

Everyone's got their answer, right? Mine is: because sometimes they work.

Not speaking from first-hand knowledge...
posted by Edgewise at 6:39 AM on July 15

I'm gonna go on record as stating that I think this blog is an elaborate ruse on the author's part to pull down some tang.

You know, I get that same vibe. "Weasel's" nickname seems to suit him nicely.
posted by Item at 6:41 AM on July 15

The especially awful part is how he flipped the photo so his penis looks impossibly symmetrical.

Yeah, if we ladies wanted that kind of perversity, we'd peruse photos of abandoned real-estate developments in the New York Times.
posted by cirocco at 6:47 AM on July 15 [3 favorites]

We're just animals with better housing and food sources.

You forgot the weapons!

Precious, precious weapons. So shiny. So intricate. Such purity of purpose. They love me. They won't betray me. No, no. Not my precious weapons. What's that? You want me to lick you? But, but, there are all these people! Ohh, look, you got grease on your stock! Here, let me take care of that....mmmmmm......
posted by aramaic at 6:49 AM on July 15 [6 favorites]

And let me say that I consider that blog's proprietor, the men who sent those letters, and the women who dated them all pathetic.

At least some of these women did not date these men. Some of the letters are just from assholes that people unfortunately chose to associate with and they will hopefully be more selective in the future, but some of these are clearly from people with mental health issues. I just read the story of Nate, from whence came the quote about the chocolate, and Tristan and that the guy appear to be completely divorced from reality. They seem to imagine something happening that isn't being observed by anyone else. They are like Walter Mitty, except their fantasies are that a person who had a brief conversation with them, or knew them five years ago, is their girlfriend or soul mate. I am all for people having a rich inner life, but sometimes you need to get out of your head a little bit and try to see this nice little thing we have here called objective reality where you are creeping everybody out.
posted by ND¢ at 6:51 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

Okay, yeah, but you know what's really creepy? Psychotic letters from women.

How about voicemails?
posted by Dr-Baa at 6:51 AM on July 15

"Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily?"

Because they are socially constructed, not genetic, and therefore not heritable.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:53 AM on July 15 [16 favorites]

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily?
Because historically women haven't had much choice in these matters...

I'm sure it's well-intentioned, but I think this is a misplay of the sexist card.

I am quite confident there are just as many creepy, psychotic e-mails from women out there.

We could make a website, but it would be slammed as sexist. Neat, huh?
posted by rokusan at 6:54 AM on July 15 [3 favorites]

Who said civilization exists? We're just animals with better housing and food sources.

That's what I mean. I'm not talking about people being civil to one another. The better housing and food sources and the rest that go with them take quite a bit of social coordination, cooperation, and stable social structure to create and maintain and I would expect that it would take a very small number of people like this to make it all fall apart.
posted by XMLicious at 6:59 AM on July 15

We could make a website, but it would be slammed as sexist. Neat, huh?
posted by rokusan

Oh my god, you big babies, it would not. I looked for a similar site that had crazy emails from women, but couldn't find one. So there you go: make it happen, cap'n.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:03 AM on July 15 [11 favorites]

All these stories are evidence of how mental health is not taken seriously, and what the consequences are.

Health insurance starts at the feet & goes up to the eyes and ears. Everything above that is not covered.
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:05 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: The email from your psychotic ex that you just can't ignore.
posted by Mali at 7:06 AM on July 15

Optimus Chyme: I counted one story in which someone complained about a cheap date, and in the comments, it was pretty well agreed that both writer and writee left a little something to be desired. What exactly, are you getting at?

Isn't is obvious that all women are shiftless gold-diggers, who, in their failure, settle for guys who are mentally ill?
posted by 0xdeadc0de at 7:11 AM on July 15

>> Can't you vomit in despair? That's what I always do.....

Despair? You teens and your crazy lingo. Back in our day, we called that your hat.
posted by davelog at 7:13 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily?

When "pulling chicks" is your standard, nothing works better than "treat 'em mean; keep 'em keen." It sucks mightily but it is true; sometimes I feel like getting on those AskMe 'help me get laid' threads to just spell it out. I don't spell it out often because it makes me sound like a teenage misogynist but it is empirically goddamn depressingly true. Once a girl has registered your existence your most effective strategy to getting her interested in you is to main a 70/30 ratio of asshole/sweetheart.

Compose sonnets? Buy her dinner? You'll have better luck if you try making eyes at her best friend, or not calling her for a week. And the reason it works is that your typical girl is going to spend 10x more time thinking 'why hasn't he called me yet' than she will thinking 'what a nice dinner'.

Disclaimer: I'm not an asshole, honest! This is immature, generalised, criminally over-simplified, and by no means a good way to start a relationship, but it is a verifiable observation that it gets you laid.
posted by mhjb at 7:18 AM on July 15 [7 favorites]

I'm sure it's well-intentioned, but I think this is a misplay of the sexist card.

Could you explain exactly how the site is sexist?

Does this site reinforce harmful stereotypes about the male populace? Does it imply that these particular people are engaging in psychotic behavior purely because they're men? Does it imply that women would never do anything psychotic? None of the above. It is simply a repository for psychotic letters from men.
posted by hermitosis at 7:22 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

There is a fine line between repulsive jerks and stalker creeps; I suggest that a man who is a stalker creep in a world where women are more selective in choosing a mate would probably be a repulsive jerk when the women are doing the chasing. In fact there is a fine line between stalker creep and desirable guy. Think of a romantic, sweep-her-off-her-feet kind of guy who wins his love through persistence (what's that quote? "Faint heart never won fair lady.") The only thing separating the romantic hero from the stalker is that the stalker has an unfortunate appearance, is mentally unbalanced, or exhibits unacceptable behavior. However, what is creepy or weird to one woman might be acceptable to another. It depends on circumstances, mating choices available, tolerance levels. I could imagine a made-for-TV movie where the hero has a scarred face due to an unfortunate accident yet nonetheless eventually wins over his heart's desire through sheer persistence and she in turn comes to see past the twisted ugly facade to the lovely man below. Or the movie could be about a horribly disfigured man stalking a young woman until the police have to intervene.

I am reminded of The Fan Club by Irving Wallace. In the novel 4 men conspire to kidnap a famous actress and hold her as a sexual hostage in a cabin. One of the men convinces her that he is not a creepy stalker but a misunderstood loner and in the end she helps him escape the police. He then begins to plot another kidnapping.

I am also reminded of a man I met during summer break in college. He knew my roommate and came over to our apartment several times. I was not attracted to him physically, but after several discussions with him about music I began to look past his appearance and find him intriguing. Then Fall Term started and I joined the college's touring ensemble and discovered he was a member as well. When I openly flirted with him in front of other members I was told by several people (both girls and guys) that he was Trouble in a big way-- he had stalked two of the female singers-- rubbing up against them whenever possible, bombarding them with phone calls, telling everyone his sexual fantasies involving them, etc. Needless to say my feelings for him did an abrupt 180. He went from desirable to creepy after only a few conversations. But what would have happened if I had never joined the music group? Would I have eventually gone out with him? Would he have settled down into a satisfying romantic relationship or would he have turned creepy on me? Who knows?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:22 AM on July 15 [8 favorites]

Meh. I've written creepier letters than any of those.
posted by brand-gnu at 7:25 AM on July 15

The better housing and food sources and the rest that go with them take quite a bit of social coordination, cooperation, and stable social structure to create and maintain and I would expect that it would take a very small number of people like this to make it all fall apart.

I don't think the men in the link are much involved with society. And if you look around, you can have lots of people who argue that society is or has fallen apart.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:28 AM on July 15

Even more interesting is how, if you go all the way to the end of some of those long threads, (or at least the customer service one) you start seeing anonymous comments from creepy men trying to rebut, but just reinforcing the whole premise.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:36 AM on July 15

Does this site reinforce harmful stereotypes about the male populace? Does it imply that these particular people are engaging in psychotic behavior purely because they're men? Does it imply that women would never do anything psychotic? None of the above. It is simply a repository for psychotic letters from men.

You're right, there is nothing wrong with degrading pornography. It doesn't imply that all women enjoy being humiliated.
posted by 0xdeadc0de at 7:42 AM on July 15

I know in the above mentioned Rick thread the 4chan brigade shows up towards the end of the comments. There are a lot of obvious "I'm a woman and I LOVE getting hit on the rest of you are frigid hussies" ones, as well as the plain insulting. It's a bit painful to read through.
posted by internet!Hannah at 7:51 AM on July 15

You're right, there is nothing wrong with degrading pornography. It doesn't imply that all women enjoy being humiliated.
posted by 0xdeadc0de

"Even more interesting is how, if you go all the way to the end of some of those long threads, you start seeing comments from creepy men trying to rebut, but just reinforcing the whole premise."
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:53 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily?

Evolution doesn't select for happy, healthy relationships. It selects for propagation of the gene.

Constant, aggressive, (misogynistic) pursuit of a large number of women is going to result in more conceptions than a slow, respectful romance with a single woman. Arguably, it's a more effective approach now than it ever has been, since in a modern society the offspring is less likely to die without a "nurturing" male sticking around to protect it.

"Nice" guys are also way more likely to wear a condom, which only hurts their evolutionary performance more.

You only have to read as far as the July 8th entry to see this in action.
posted by CaseyB at 7:57 AM on July 15

I really don't like this kind of stuff.

The reason being that as some have said, creepiness is not a genetic thing. It could most generally be summarized as the likely confluence of a lack of social skills combined with some degree of mental instability compounded by the immense social pressure on both men and women to be attractive / loved / et cetera.

I love me some schadenfreud but this stuff is just sad, for the men and the women.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:03 AM on July 15

One of the great things about The Soup is how Joel McHale doesn't take longer than the clip to actually introduce the clip. He gives a quick run-down, hints at what the punchline will be, and before you know it, boom, it's chicken tetrazzini time.

This site should have more of that and less soft-shoeing for the audience. The current introductions/framing bits are often longer than the letters themselves, which takes away from the point of the site.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:04 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

I'm sure it's well-intentioned, but I think this is a misplay of the sexist card.

Could you explain exactly how the site is sexist?

I meant Brandon's comment, not the site.
posted by rokusan at 8:05 AM on July 15

Fun morning reading material. There are a ton of creepy dudes who hope they can prey on women. But I'm also a little preturbed by the number of stories on this site that go:

1- Weird e-mail from dude
2- "Then Dana sent a calm, collected e-mail to weird dude"
3- CRAZY E-MAIL FROM DUDE

Where Step 2 is excerpted. I feel like I'm getting only the one side of the story. I'm not saying "Blame the Victim", I'd just like a little more transparency.
posted by GilloD at 8:09 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

Optimus Chyme, I'm going way over your head, aren't I?

Let me spell it out for you: an equivalent website featuring psychotic women would be accused of stereotyping, and be called misogynistic. And the accusations would be accurate.

The rationalizations are the same as the rationalizations for pornography. "It doesn't represent all women, just those willing to do those degrading things." And yet, somehow, those pornographic expectations modify the behavior of these men toward all women.

This website does for naive and self-absorbed women what pornography does for creeps.
posted by 0xdeadc0de at 8:14 AM on July 15 [5 favorites]

This website does for naive and self-absorbed women what pornography does for creeps.

It gives women erections?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:16 AM on July 15 [6 favorites]

I posted an e-mail from an ex on my LJ (long story and friends-locked, but the e-mail alone is hilarious without knowing the backstory there) and someone suggested submitting it here. Though the website seems a bit...yes, one-sided. And there's too much detail for someone who doesn#'t know either party to be interested for some of the entries.
posted by mippy at 8:20 AM on July 15

You're right, there is nothing wrong with degrading pornography. It doesn't imply that all women enjoy being humiliated.

I don't suppose I could get you to take this to mefimail instead? I'd love to have something to contribute to this blog...
posted by hermitosis at 8:20 AM on July 15 [4 favorites]

There is something uneasy about this site too. I must admit, one of the most crappy break-ups I've been through was with a guy who said 'You won't tame me, trust me'. Headgames are powerful things. Yet there's a difference between that one awful guy every woman has in her past and people being arseholes because the end of relationships turns everyone into an arsehole for a little while.

Having said that, I know quite a few men who are perfectly nice as people but very creepy when it comes to relationships. It's as though part of their personality takes a holiday when the penis gets involved. Most weird.

And this is a doozy.
posted by mippy at 8:32 AM on July 15

Optimus Chyme, I'm going way over your head, aren't I?

You're not going over my head; rather, you're being a big weepy baby about a funny collection of emails sent by socially-retarded assholes with entitlement complexes who also happen to send complete strangers pictures of their flaccid gray dicks.

Let me spell it out for you: an equivalent website featuring psychotic women would be accused of stereotyping, and be called misogynistic.

No doubt some would see it that way. Most sane people, who can tell the difference between "a crazy person did this" and "a crazy person did this, therefore we shall extend judgment to all members of the crazy person's sex and race and religion and etc etc" would not.

The rationalizations are the same as the rationalizations for pornography. "It doesn't represent all women, just those willing to do those degrading things." And yet, somehow, those pornographic expectations modify the behavior of these men toward all women.

The mark of a weak argument is that it requires a terrible, terrible analogy. And your analogy - that this post is just like HARDCORE PORNOGRAPHY - is weak even for you.

This website does for naive and self-absorbed women what pornography does for creeps.

what

christ take it to metatalk already
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:33 AM on July 15 [12 favorites]

Re evolution towards nice-guys:

Yeah, there's no "pulling your dick out at inappropriate moments" gene. People have a mish-mash of competing drives (sex, aggression, affection, etc) that they rationalize and channel into actions. There are genes underlying the drives, and a mix of genes, culture, and the random vagaries of personal experience determine how we deal with our base urges. You're not going to find a gene with only one behavioral effect, nor a behavior affected only by one gene. e.g. if you're waiting for scientists to discover "the gay gene", don't hold your breath.

That said, a lot of really fucked up behavior is going to kick in after rejection (real or imagined). Male aggression is highly rewarded, whereas internalizing an "I suck" message is not. The simplest aggressive response to rejection that allows one to maintain a positive self image is to suppose that there's something wrong with the other person. In someone who lacks self-reflection, this can lead to "trying to get through to them", i.e. stalking.
posted by Humanzee at 8:39 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

At least some of these women did not date these men.

True, but they did forward the emails to this blog.
posted by dortmunder at 8:41 AM on July 15

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily? (Are there creepy birds, monkeys and beetles [to their prospective mates]?) I guess in every generation it makes sense to try new things, in case one of them turns out to work. "I'm not getting laid, I should try something new. Hey, I know! I'll whistle at hot women from a construction site!"

What? what makes you think creepiness is even heritable? It's so context dependent.
posted by delmoi at 8:45 AM on July 15

man, this site creeps me out like crazy. I mean, it's cool, if other people dig it then dig away. But as the writer of my fair share of angry, pathetic break up emails I'm terrified that one of them could end up on a site like this. most of these guys have some kind of ultra-creepy back story to them, so you can sort of assume that this isn't necessarily them at their most vulnerable as it is them at their usual shit. but on the other hand, nobody comes off well when they're angry and resentful and hurt and desperate. the idea that these women are happy to provide these really private emails for other people's entertainment just creeps me the fuck out.

again, though, I'm not trying to say that this blog shouldn't exist, or that other people shouldn't enjoy it. I guess... it just seems like, if you're the kind of person who would SUBMIT this stuff to the blog... maybe you're a little fucked up, too.
posted by shmegegge at 8:46 AM on July 15 [7 favorites]

that first entry just seemed like a mean-hearted, one-sided web expose of "clark", who, whatever his issues may be, didn't deserve the kind of public shittiness "janelle" and the website owner just put him through

i bet she's one of those narcissistic "high-maintenance" women who, when they find out they can't make a man into their version of prince charming, don't just dump him, but perform acts of bitter revenge, such as publishing his letters online

she expected him to pay for shipping her stuff after leaving him and then publicly humiliates him when he doesn't

whatever his failings, "clark's" a lucky guy

i can't be bothered to read the rest of this psycho-enabling website
posted by pyramid termite at 8:47 AM on July 15

Does this site reinforce harmful stereotypes about the male populace? Does it imply that these particular people are engaging in psychotic behavior purely because they're men? Does it imply that women would never do anything psychotic? None of the above. It is simply a repository for psychotic letters from men.

And to head off the complaints about this observation -- the reason why there is a collection of these types of "letters from men" is because they are expressly romantic in nature; and, the law of averages dictates that most communication of a romantic nature is between the two possible participants of a heterosexual relationship, i.e., a man and a woman. There may indeed be the occasional creepy email a lesbian woman receives from another woman, but -- again -- the law of averages ensures that there are more such letters from a man to a woman, ergo, most of the emails on this site would be written by men.

It's kind of like why if there were a web site devoted to "weird looking scissors," why so many of these scissors would be right-handed scissors -- it's because there just happen to be more such examples, not because of any anti-right-handed-scissor bias.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:50 AM on July 15

The Internet: Where human monkeys fling virtual poo at each other.

You know, I concur with the sentiment that less editorialization would make for a better website.
posted by WalterMitty at 8:50 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

I don't know any women who haven't had an experience with a deluded guy who thought they were in a relationship, when in fact, it was one, horrible lunch date.

What does that say about society?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:53 AM on July 15 [7 favorites]

If we can have stuff like Failblog or The Customer Isn't Always Right, I don't see how this is any different.

Or wait, male insecurity about seeing the patriarchy on display for mocking?

Gotcha. Continue debating, then!
posted by yeloson at 8:54 AM on July 15 [4 favorites]

It's not so much 'the patriarchy' being mocked as how crap human beings can be to one another. I couldn't read enough of the site to see if a misogynistic slant was being drawn, but that's the impression I got. The editorialising bugged me too much.
posted by mippy at 8:56 AM on July 15

I read this one where the guy pretty much seemed like a pretty big asshole. The rest of the posts really fall into the 'tl;dr' category, so it's hard to have an opinion about how exactly bad they are. It wouldn't be surprising of some women were embellishing a little here, or if we heard the guy's side she might seem like a psycho bitch. Some people are just drama seeking missiles and they often find each other.
posted by delmoi at 8:58 AM on July 15

Yeah, the misanthropy of the site struck me, but I had to chuckle anyway. Plus, even a lot of enlightened male MeFites don't realize that women have to put up with this kind of misogyny all the time. For example, look at fat chick jokes, or even blonde jokes. Unnecessary, uncool, yet they still get airplay on TV. So men, un-twist your panties, and deal with it.

That being said, we are all a lot closer to being these creepy, awkward, ridiculous, self-serving people than we care to admit. That's the hard part. Un-comfortable!

The solution is make sure that you are always on guard in a relationship. Even being in a 16 year old marriage isn't an excuse for expressing your feelings when you are hurt, angry and frustrated. Certainly don't express yourself in writing, that's just stupid. Keep it civil, keep it safe, and always, always keep your partner at a respectful emotional distance.

Kind of like the terms in my restraining order. It's just plain good advice.
posted by Xoebe at 8:59 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

If at first you don't succeed, try try again. But don't be weird about it. Weirdo.
posted by discountfortunecookie at 9:04 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

Why haven't creepy tactics been weeded out, evolutionarily?

Well, there ARE the horrible layers of mixed messages which are tossed about in our society.

A lot of the stories (I read a decent selection) from that website seem to boil down to the man doing this whole Twilight "You are my special brand of heroin" kind of behavior toward women, and the women rejecting them for it. And yet, there is this whole "thing" in our culture, about how women just want to be pursued, to be made to feel special, to know that you think of them and only them...

And then there are the "romantic" movies, even real hits like Say Anything..., where the creepy guy keeps at it and keeps at it until he finally wins the girl in the end...

I mean, really. I'm not a guy who chases after girls in a creepy way, but I can totally understand the ones who think this kind of tactic will work. They've been told it will, over and over.
posted by hippybear at 9:07 AM on July 15 [11 favorites]

And then there are the "romantic" movies, even real hits like Say Anything..., where the creepy guy keeps at it and keeps at it until he finally wins the girl in the end...

Romantic-Comedy Behavior Gets Real-Life Man Arrested
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:10 AM on July 15

For those of you on the "misandry" derail, this website has actually aspired to be an equal opportunity offender:

Friday, February 13, 2009
A Note From PLFM
I'm getting some emails from guys with psycho letters from ex-girlfriends who want to know if they can send them in. Of course. Gay? Yes. Lesbian? Yes.
posted by availablelight at 9:20 AM on July 15

I think it's kinda fucked to show anybody an email that somebody else sends you. Whenever I hear about people doing this -- even showing an email to a personal friend -- I get kind of offended. What kind of jackass does this?

I dunno, maybe I'm just old-fashioned.
posted by Afroblanco at 9:21 AM on July 15 [3 favorites]

Afroblanco: "I think it's kinda fucked to show anybody an email that somebody else sends you. Whenever I hear about people doing this -- even showing an email to a personal friend -- I get kind of offended. What kind of jackass does this?

I dunno, maybe I'm just old-fashioned."

Nope. I thought the same thing. "OMG TRAUMA!!! LET'S SHARE IT WITH THE WORLD!!"
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 9:25 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

Optimus Chyme: I suspect there might even be some actual news that reflects that Onion article if we were to dig deep enough.
posted by hippybear at 9:25 AM on July 15

I'd like to see a website Things Psychotic People Love
- writing passive-aggressive notes
- Starbucks
- Couches on the driveway
- Penis 'shopping
posted by stevil at 9:30 AM on July 15

And this is a doozy.

Is it? Maybe my perception is skewed after reading all the rest of these but he sounds like a basically normal guy:

I'm not looking to get back together with her. I just would like you to tell me if she is doing O.K. I don't mean to sound like a self-promoting prick but I believe I hurt her badly. I hope she has put it behind her.

It reads to me like he regrets his past behavior, hopes to hear that he hasn't left open wounds, but knows better than to contact the girl directly. Sure, the closing paragraph is a bit lame, but it reads more like he's trying to be buddy-buddy with the email recipient than anything else. He certainly doesn't sound like somebody I'd want to hang out with, but there's no creepy stalker vibe to it; nowhere near the league of some of the others.

This whole site makes me very uncomfortable. Yeah, some of these guys definitely earned their restraining orders, and I would never defend their behavior, but the whole HA HA LETS MOCK THE SOCIALLY MALADJUSTED DESPERATE GUY tone is really depressing. I'd feel the same way whether the people being mocked were men, women, or adorable puppies.

EmpressCallipygos: most communication of a romantic nature is between the two possible participants of a heterosexual relationship, i.e., a man and a woman... [therefore] the law of averages ensures that there are more such letters from a man to a woman.

I am not following this logic. Are you working from the assumption that heterosexual women do not write letters to men? Because that is the only way this comment would make any sense at all.
posted by ook at 9:32 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

For those wanting psycho women, it's not that hard to find sites to meet your needs.

http://psychoexgirlfriend.net/ a blog about a particular ex
http://mycrazyex.net/ a site for networking with others who have crazy exes
http://www.thatsonecrazyex.com/ one man's idea of how to help others going through divorce from a "crazy ex"

And of course, there's AskMeFi.

In my experience, women do get crazy in/about relationships, but almost exclusively with either people they've actually dated or with celebrities (Letterman, anyone?), whereas men get crazy about celebrities, people they've dated, people they've seen at the bar/library/doctor/grocer, people they've exchanged a couple of business emails with, people who work with their wives, etc. It's not misandrist or misogynist to say that people get crazy/obsessive about others or to focus your website on one particular group of nuts.
posted by notashroom at 9:33 AM on July 15 [3 favorites]

> I think it's kinda fucked to show anybody an email that somebody else sends you.

Seconded. I wonder how some of the submitters would react if their "psycho boyfriend" recorded their phonecalls and played them on rotation over satellite radio. Because that's basically what they've done here. Serious squick, and n^th-ing also that "Weasel" needs to take "brevity is the soul of wit" to heart. If you actually have to frame something that elaborately you're mischaracterizing it. After scrolling down four times and not getting to the actual letter, I closed the tab.
posted by Decimask at 9:48 AM on July 15

Seconded. I wonder how some of the submitters would react if their "psycho boyfriend" recorded their phonecalls and played them on rotation over satellite radio. [...] After scrolling down four times and not getting to the actual letter, I closed the tab.
posted by Decimask

If you had read the blog, you would know that very, very few of these men were ever the submitter's boyfriend. That's why you RTFA. :)
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:54 AM on July 15

Similar in tone to Nice Stalking To You
posted by The Whelk at 10:00 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

That psychoexgirlfriend.net site is among the most despicable blogs I have ever read.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 10:03 AM on July 15

I would disagree that creepiness would have no heritable components whatsoever. Let us examine some of the key factors in "creepy:"

1) persevering behavior, that is, the tendency to not give up, repeat, etc. — That guy who won't stop emailing you, texting you, etc. He shows up here every day.

2) poor parsing of others' reactions, expressions, and modeling of their internal states — can't he see that I don't like him?

3) your basic "I have problems getting a firm grasp on reality" — psychosis, schizophrenia, schizotypal personality disorder

4) sexual aggressiveness, which may be tied to #1 to some degree — pawing at me after those nasty pics sent to my cell

The first two can be quite common in the autistic spectrum (indeed, the second is enormous as compared to the mere symptomatology of the first) and while that's a very broad and subtle spectrum with a great deal of flavor, you'd have a hard time convincing people that there's no heritability there. You can also get #1 out of your various obsessive and compulsive disorders, and we know about some heritability there.

I will admit to the third being something of a catch-all for people who are having some kind of difficulty processing their environment and getting a handle on The Way Things Work. We know about heritability in the first two, the third seems to be under investigation.

The fourth would be correlated with, though not entirely matching, testosterone production. That's also heritable to some degree.

I am not intending to cast creepiness as some kind of mental disorder and we should all start feeling sorry for those who have it, but the idea that it just sort of emerges out of nurture alone panders to the tabula rasa crowd and does nothing for the creepy or those who are being creeped. The specific methods of creepiness, such as rambling letters written in Klingon and blood about your love to your dying VERY SOON NOW day, purchasing of clown suits for a moonlight serenade, and portable shrines in pelican cases consisting of birthday candles and inkjet printed photos of and trash ejected by one's beloved, these are obviously not heritable, but being a creep? Yeah.
posted by adipocere at 10:08 AM on July 15 [3 favorites]

The title of the blog is "Psychotic Letters from Men" with the subtitle "A Forum to Show Men Who the Real Bitch Is" and yet I'm being told in this thread that having the temerity to suggest the blog is targeting men specifically and is misandrist is "whining." In part because the blogger has made a half-assed effort to include letters from men about women.

Something's not adding up here.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:08 AM on July 15 [2 favorites]

And yet, there is this whole "thing" in our culture, about how women just want to be pursued, to be made to feel special, to know that you think of them and only them...

I realize that you are saying this belief is a stereotype and so probably not true, but I think it needs to be addressed. You know how most guys you meet are pretty decent? I mean, they have their faults, but are generally okay guys? They may use emoticons or listen to heavy metal, but they are for the most part decent human beings? They are kind to their loved ones most of the time, they would not kick a puppy, that kind of thing. And you see how there are these guys on this website who are assholes or psychos or whatever? See that is the thing, there are lots of different kind of guys, some pretty much okay, and some awful. Where you choose to focus will determine what you generally think of a group of people. If you focus on real life people, you will probably think that, aside from the fringes, most dudes are okay. If you choose to focus on the men on this website, or reality TV, or any number of other places, you will come to believe that men as a gender are terrible.

I think the same kind of thing brought about this myth that women "just want to be pursued, to be made to feel special, to know that you think of them and only them". Sure some women want that. Lame women. They exist. They are out there. They are lame. If you asked 90% of the real life women you know whether they "just want to be pursued, to be made to feel special, to know that you think of them and only them" they will probably laugh at you. How would someone who thinks only of another person have a job? "Let's go put out that fire Dan." "I can't boss. I am too busy thinking about Sally." It is dumb. It is an immature idea as well. So, let's say 75% of the general female population (cause that is about the number of people, men and women, who I believe are generally, for the most part, pretty okay. Yes I know more than 25% of people vote Republican, but some people are just confused and others are really old and just don't know no better) would find that idea laughable. That still leaves 25% of people who would say that yes they want some two-dimensional Prince Charming/sparkly vampire man, and those people are probably lame. Sorry. Your Aunt Jennifer may be lame. Or at least lame in this one particular way and otherwise fine.

And then we come to self-selecting groups distorting our perceptions. What if you mostly hang out with 20 to 25 year olds? You are obviously going to get higher number of responses from people who are just temporarily lame, or have temporary partial lameness, due to immaturity. What if you yourself are lame? Then you will be more likely to know lame people. Hence you will know women who have this dumb idea and will think this is a generally held belief. The fact of the matter is that I don't think this idea that women "just want to be pursued, to be made to feel special, to know that you think of them and only them" is true for the majority of women, despite the fact that it is accepted wisdom among some people. I think 12 year olds and very sad and stunted adults and some people who should know better but maybe have some kind of blind spot think this. I think this idea has been generally attributed to women erroneously.

-Aside- I think this is also true of the idea that you will get laid more by being mean to women, which was stated upthread. You may get laid more with immature or lame women, and that may be the majority of the women out at the bars, but among the general population, and more specifically among people who aren't terrible or 19, that type of behavior will be laughed at or ignored and will result in you never hearing from that person again. So, if all you want is sex, and you have no care for whom it is with, then sure, you can try that crap found on the seduction blogs, but it will only work with lame women, and it is the type of behavior that causes lots of bars to be full of lame women, because non-lame women avoid them to avoid people acting like that.-end of aside-

The moral of this story is that you should choose carefully whom to have in your life, because those people shape your world view. The more you hang out with awesome people, the more awesome the world will seem. The more you hang out with terrible people, or immature people, or jerks, or psychos, or assholes, or whatever, the less awesome you will think humanity is, and by extension the world.

That is why spending lots of time on Metafilter makes the world a better place.
posted by ND¢ at 10:10 AM on July 15 [10 favorites]

I did like the comment where the girl referred to herself as a vagina-American.
posted by atchafalaya at 10:14 AM on July 15

"Nice" guys are also way more likely to wear a condom, which only hurts their evolutionary performance more.

Oh, so that's why Republicans hate contraception!

As to why "creepy" still exists, um; misogyny still exists. Which this creepy is largely a manifestation of, combined with some degree of mental/social maladjustment.

Look, from very early in our history to not too long ago, many women had to marry to survive, or were just sold off altogether to the highest bidder. They were chattel, not people. That's not playing the sexist card, it's history. Whether the dude was creepy or maladjusted was simply not a factor.

The whole idea that men have any obligation to treat women as human beings or with consideration for their needs is relatively new, although probably some men have always done so. And so the whole structure of male/female relationships is still just now coming out from under the shadow of millennia of discrimination. It takes time to weed out these behaviors in the general population, and even after they are labeled "unacceptable" they are not going to disappear overnight.

But, exposing them to daylight and pointing out how genuinely fucked up some versions of "romantic pursuit" really are, is a valuable service, so yay internet.

And sure, put up a companion site for women's psychotic letters, by all means. But I think what you may find is that it attracts a serious amount of scary hate-filled-dudes as opposed to just traumatized former boyfriends. Because the history of male violence and oppression of women, and the mental sickness it creates, is still going to be with us for a long time.
posted by emjaybee at 10:15 AM on July 15 [8 favorites]

I am not following this logic. Are you working from the assumption that heterosexual women do not write letters to men? Because that is the only way this comment would make any sense at all.

Nope. My point is that if a) it's mostly women who patronize the site, and b) most women generally engage in romantic relationships with men, then therefore c) most of the creepy emails about failed relationships they get are going to be FROM men.

However, as available light linked to upthread, the site is now -- or re-affirmed that they have always been -- equal-opportunity creepshow. So guys, go ahead and send in letters from your psycho ex-girlfriends if you want to even the score.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:19 AM on July 15

The title of the blog is "Psychotic Letters from Men" with the subtitle "A Forum to Show Men Who the Real Bitch Is" and yet I'm being told in this thread that having the temerity to suggest the blog is targeting men specifically and is misandrist is "whining." In part because the blogger has made a half-assed effort to include letters from men about women.

I'm certainly not weighing in to defend psycho dudes, but I would propose that a blog entitled "Psychotic Letters from Women: A Forum to Show Women Who the Real Asshole Is" would not be well-received here on MeFi.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:49 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

Yeah, the misanthropy of the site struck me, but I had to chuckle anyway. Plus, even a lot of enlightened male MeFites don't realize that women have to put up with this kind of misogyny all the time. For example, look at fat chick jokes, or even blonde jokes. Unnecessary, uncool, yet they still get airplay on TV. So men, un-twist your panties, and deal with it.

I don't have anything to say about the site (I've read enough Crap Emails From A Dude and this sounds like a shittier version), but I just want to say that the correct response to misogyny is not misandry. The correct response is to fight misogyny.

I don't take issue with anyone's enjoyment of this site, and I have no opinion on whether it's misandrist or not, but if it is, or if you think it is, enjoy it at will, but you don't get to claim that you're in the right in doing so.

Men are drawn to misogynist representations of women because it makes them feel powerful. It makes sense that the same, mutatis mutandis, would be true of women. Hence the duality of 'bro movies' and 'chick flicks', the splitting of art along gender lines. We like what makes us feel good, but don't have any illusions about the effect that those representations have on the opposite sex.
posted by skwt at 10:50 AM on July 15 [4 favorites]

Everyone crying misandry needs to go read availablelight's comment above. No one's implying that the sorry specimens represented by the website represent all of mankind, but I have yet to meet a woman who hasn't been made to feel uncomfortable, threatened, or terrified by attention that some deluded man thought was perfectly okay. Most of us don't talk about it all the time, but we should. It's total bullshit that women think they have to be polite and say nothing in situations like this.
posted by oinopaponton at 10:57 AM on July 15 [12 favorites]

In my experience, women do get crazy in/about relationships, but almost exclusively with either people they've actually dated or with celebrities

I wish I read caught this comment when it was first posted, but I was out on a Brent Break at the time.
posted by Afroblanco at 10:57 AM on July 15

Look baby, if you don't love me NOW, perhaps it's just because you are having trouble visualizing my grey, flaccid, floppy old man penis hovering near your cheek while you are mid-sneeze.

That's what you need, and then you will be mine.

/shudders.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 11:00 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

I was done after she said "if I showed up clothed only in a thin layer of oil he would be all up in me." Maybe this dude would have, but "I don't enjoy casual sex" is not male code for "I can't get casual sex." Bluh.
posted by sonic meat machine at 11:08 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

Let me tell you a story.

In my neighborhood there's this hipster semi-dive bar that in the last however long has become a pretty rad place to go on friday nights to dance. The drinks are cheap, the music is pretty fresh blog house/indie and the people for the most part are cool.

Cut to a few years ago. Pretty much the same place but it was a tad more of an "80's night", which of course brought out the college girls in droves. This in turn brought out the meatheads.

So one friday me and my friend Mike are hanging out on the side of the dance floor, people watching and ramping up the drinks waiting for the (fucking) Human League to stop and the DFA (or what have you) to start.

So anyway there's these two pretty attractive girls say 22 -years old or so dancing together but not "together."

These two meathead dipshits approach, as they always do, from behind them. Hunched over, grinding away without so much as a "hello" and totally oblivious to the girls' very obvious disinterest in them. It was fascinating to watch.
For a half an hour this semi-pursuit went on: the girls would roll their eyes, move to another part of the floor to get away and the two dudes would follow, as if being pulled by a rope wenched to their groins (thats not me being colorful BTW, they actually walked groin-first like that.)
So after about 15 minutes of the most pathetic cat-and-mouse ever, the girls hatch a brilliant plan: if we were to just act like lesbians, surely then they will get the hint and leave us alone!
The red rag goes up to the bull and now the two meatheads are locked in hard! If they weren't taking "no" for an answer before, there wasn't much that was going to dissuade them now that the Girls Gone Wild beacon had been activated.

So me and Mike are slackjawed at how socially tone-def these guys are.
Until......

at about the 25 minute mark, you could literally see the moment of resignation on the girls faces. They just decided to say "fuck it" and give in and do the "rhythmless white people Lambada" with the two brah's.

When we left that night they had already coupled up in the corner and were making out furiously. What the hell, people of the world?

And just to stave off any of the obvious roles that tend to get unconsciously filled in these stories: Mike and I arent bookish twee types, deriding "those damn jocks" and longing for a hot girls that are in to Wittgenstein (and Backgammon, etc). We do alright for ourselves. This isnt one of those apron-tugging, cloying "why dont they ever give the nice guys a chance?" stories.

End of the day, the point is that alot of these dudes get over with this flavor of Creepiness. And a lot of girls put up with it. I can't for the life of me figure out why.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 11:22 AM on July 15 [8 favorites]

I went through several levels of reaction to this site. Most of those levels or responses have been mentioned to some degree in the thread. I have to say, I thought that PLfM was going to be the kind of crazy stuff that my son used to get when he was working for a "men's magazine." THOSE were some crazy, crazy letters from people I would never want to meet in person, but I was also relatively sure I would never meet them in person, because the ambient light in most situations would be way too bright for those tortured souls. I could not imagine any of them actually holding a day job.

The letters I read here were troubled and, yes, some of those people might be dangerous, and I don't think anyone can reasonably say that this behavior is gendered. Although it was long ago and far away, I was stalked and I've known others of both genders who have been. In my case, I was amused at first, and then felt somewhat threatened--not physically, but I imagined all sorts of negative consequences to being a 21 year old male being stalked by a 16 year old female.

I also felt somewhat uncomfortable being a voyeur into people's mental illness. IANAP, but I had a certifiable friend whose opening line was "care for a virgin jerk off in the White Castle parking lot?" I mean, what girl could resist? And when a friend of my girlfriend acted nice to him for half a day (and by "nice" I mean that she engaged him in conversation and maybe--MAYBE--held his hand for a minute) he sent her a long letter that told her that they could have no future together b/c he was afraid that the amount of tripping he had done would give them genetically deformed children. Now, he wound up spending most of his life chemically strait-jacketed. I don't think anything constructive comes from a website who's main point seems to be "don't be that guy." If he had had a "free" choice, I don't think he would have been that guy. Mental illness greatly influenced that free choice,

As far as the guys who were just incredibly self-centered and tone-deaf ("Clark" sticks out in my mind), we are only getting one side of the story, and I really don't am not terribly interested in reading the other side. I got a bit of a chuckle, the schadenfreude of ther but for the grace of a 5th grade education go I.

So, amused, sure. Disturbed? A lttle. Best of the web? Hmmmmm. Nah. A mere bagatelle.
posted by beelzbubba at 11:22 AM on July 15

>In my experience, women do get crazy in/about relationships, but almost exclusively with either people they've actually dated or with celebrities

I wish I read caught this comment when it was first posted, but I was out on a Brent Break at the time.

Yep. Sad. Obsessive. Creepy. They are not gender-specific adjectives, for good reason. I'm sure every celebrity has at least one creepy-obsessive fan (except, I guess, Carlos Mencia since he can post invites to join him for lunch on his Twit feed apparently without issue). It's like Rule 34b.

Curiously and anecdotally, I've known a lot more women and girls who have had stalkers than men/boys who have. I had one for nearly 15 years, though fortunately he wasn't very aggressive. My younger daughter had one, who would go so far as calling and texting me and her friends when she refused to talk to him. A friend had a psycho stalker ex who climbed up and sat in a tree with binoculars in order to watch her at a music festival. It's bizarre to me, and far too common.
posted by notashroom at 11:30 AM on July 15

Excellent, I look forward to metafilter's take on my forthcoming sites Women Sometimes Talk Too Much and Mexican Dudes Like to Wear Mesh Tank Tops Even Though They Probably Shouldn't.
posted by electroboy at 11:42 AM on July 15 [1 favorite]

except, I guess, Carlos Mencia since he can post invites to join him for lunch on his Twit feed apparently without issue

This presumes that anybody would, of their own volition, want to stalk Carlos Mencia.
posted by blucevalo at 11:50 AM on July 15

So after about 15 minutes of the most pathetic cat-and-mouse ever, the girls hatch a brilliant plan: if we were to just act like lesbians, surely then they will get the hint and leave us alone!

So me and Mike are slackjawed at how socially tone-def these guys are.

Honestly, the girls in this case sound just as deluded, and as much as it may gross you out, it sounds like pretty much everyone got what they came for that night.
posted by hermitosis at 12:28 PM on July 15

So after about 15 minutes of the most pathetic cat-and-mouse ever, the girls hatch a brilliant plan: if we were to just act like lesbians, surely then they will get the hint and leave us alone!

Yeah, it sorta sounds like the girls in this situation were pretty tone-deaf, too, provided that was actually the thought process in action there.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:32 PM on July 15

Before I chime in, have we reached stage III of the thread yet?

I: lulz
II: deep, antagonistic beanplating about gender issues
III: more lulz
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:36 PM on July 15 [6 favorites]

So after about 15 minutes of the most pathetic cat-and-mouse ever, the girls hatch a brilliant plan: if we were to just act like lesbians, >surely then they will get the hint and leave us alone!

I assure you this wasn't the plan. They didn't really want the guys to leave them alone, and they weren't "acting like lesbians" - they were performing.

Girls like making out, so do guys. Members of both genders play games, for their own amusement, to filter out whatever they don't want, and for reasons that they probably don't quite understand themselves. Sounded like all parties involved were having fun. There's also a funny social game in the two of them each pairing up with said brahs. It certainly gives them something to talk about the next morning. ("Oh, can you be-LIEVE those guys last night! We were so trashed...")

As for the linked site, I also went through a series of reactions while reading it. By and large, most of the entries are letters from genuinely disturbed guys, and there's entertainment value in that, no lie. Some of the entries indicate that we're not getting the whole story. Sometimes people get into relationships with very weird people and that these people don't recognize this until a certain tipping point is reached. Likewise, some otherwise functioning human beings get pretty bizarre when they think their world is being taken from them.

With regard to the stories where there was some degree of an existing relationship between the parties: worth pointing out that some people are at least initially attracted not only to aggressive, outwardly affectionate partners, but also partners who need fixing or taking care of. Of course, the charm of that dynamic eventually wears off, and there's quite a bit of difference in degree between trying to train a cute schlub and dealing with a full-blown loon who not only will never change, but who will remain crazy as long as you reward their looniness with further attention.

The story about the guy who went halfsies on the sorta-date was weird to the extent that it was posted at all. Both parties, male and female, just sound immature. It didn't fit in with the rest of the posts at all.
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:40 PM on July 15

This presumes that anybody would, of their own volition, want to stalk Carlos Mencia.

Look, if I just want to go to all the comedy clubs in town with a notebook, I don't need to follow Mencia around to do it.
posted by shmegegge at 12:42 PM on July 15

If you haven't guessed by now, I really dig you. The highlight of my week is droping off DNA to your lab, and I would love to make a more direct deposit.

This is pretty hilarious.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 12:51 PM on July 15 [1 favorite]

solipsophistocracy: "If you haven't guessed by now, I really dig you. The highlight of my week is droping off DNA to your lab, and I would love to make a more direct deposit.

This is pretty hilarious."

It's even better if you hear it with Smoove B's voice.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 12:54 PM on July 15 [2 favorites]

Equal opportunity: Crazy Exes.

The OP's site makes me uncomfortable, too. I'm not sure that having input from both sexes helps, either.

Lots of people do crazy things when relationships break up, like write long rambling letters to get 'closure' or try to convince the ex to give them one more try. It seems mean to play the voyeur in those cases.

And then there are the creepy, truly psychotic types that actually scare you. I'm not sure we want to give those people any more notoriety for their actions.

More than that, though, the first site just seems so...insidious. It's clear the guy writing it has an ulterior motive and just really ENJOYS making these other guys look bad in a way that, honestly, creeps me out just as much as the actions he's so gleefully recounting in lurid detail on his site.
posted by misha at 12:57 PM on July 15

Might as well throw in an anecdote: a female friend of mine dated a guy for a short while some years ago; maybe they went out for a couple of months or so. The split seemed fairly regular & mature. After a month or two, a package arrived in the mail.

Inside was an elaborate handmade installation that looked like some kind of shrine, with a dildo in the centre of it. Accompanying this wonderful piece of art was an anonymous note, along the lines of "I thought you would probably want this because you so obviously love worshipping at the altar of cock!" along with a bunch of ranty misogynistic whining.

I asked "Woah, that's a bit unhinged - do you have any idea who might've sent it?"

"I'm guessing it was [ex-bf]...I heard on the grapevine that he just landed a job at a factory making sex toys, and he's taken up meth..."
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:05 PM on July 15

No one's implying that the sorry specimens represented by the website represent all of mankind...

The site's tagline, "A Forum To Show Men Who The Real Bitch Is," suggests otherwise.

The appropriate response to sexism isn't more sexism. Sorry.
posted by Amanojaku at 1:54 PM on July 15

The author of that blog has a tremendously irritating writing style.
posted by the bricabrac man at 2:25 PM on July 15

The site's tagline, "A Forum To Show Men Who The Real Bitch Is," suggests otherwise.

I'm not even quite sure what that means.

"The real bitch isn't men, it's women"?

"The real bitch isn't the ex, it's the author of the blog"?

"The real bitch is life (and then you marry one)"?
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:50 PM on July 15

The site's tagline, "A Forum To Show Men Who The Real Bitch Is," suggests otherwise.

The appropriate response to sexism isn't more sexism. Sorry.


See I'm kind of stupid, so I really don't care if a statement like "A Forum To Show Men Who-the-fuck-ever Who The Real Bitch Is," is what someone would call sexist.

Now if you turned that into "A Forum To Show Women Who The Real Bitch Is," , it makes me cringe but that would be because 1) it spoils the joke and 2) I don't like treating women with disrespect because my momma raised me to treat women differently from men.
See if my girlfriend does something that makes me mad enough to spit I don't split her lip, see? Cause she can't handle it. I just go a county over drink a fith of whiskey and find a bar. Once in the bar it don't take to long before I've found some dude that looked at me cross-ways and I can smack the taste out his mouth. Cause he can handle it.
Which makes me both a sexist and a fucking wacko. See how easy life is once you figure it out.
posted by nola at 2:57 PM on July 15

Terrifying. This behavior isn't gendered, but it's often far scarier for a man to be behaving this way towards a woman than the other way around. Sadly, most women I know have a story similar to these.
posted by agregoli at 3:04 PM on July 15

Once in the bar it don't take to long before I've found some dude that looked at me cross-ways and I can smack the taste out his mouth. Cause he can handle it.

Uh, is this serious?
posted by stinkycheese at 3:14 PM on July 15

watch out - them's fightin' words!
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:24 PM on July 15

stinkycheese, are you looking at me cross-ways?
posted by nola at 3:33 PM on July 15 [1 favorite]

I read too much. It's making me sick to my stomach and a little scared. Even though I'm happily married and don't have anyone stalking me. Some of these texts and emails are downright heart-stopping threatening.
posted by agregoli at 3:37 PM on July 15

Terrifying. This behavior isn't gendered, but it's often far scarier for a man to be behaving this way towards a woman than the other way around. Sadly, most women I know have a story similar to these.

Less scary if only because the warning signs get written off as eccentric and cutesy. A completely unhinged woman does not fail in the scariness department.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:46 PM on July 15

I've decided to put the video for Lush's "Ladykillers" right here

Partly due to relevance, but mainly cuz its a dope song.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 3:47 PM on July 15

It appears the "Tristan" post several people referenced has been deleted.
posted by anazgnos at 3:59 PM on July 15

ND¢: I'm really not sure what you are saying here. Are you suggesting that everyone needs to stop hanging out with people who have worldviews which you find somehow lame? Because that's simply not going to happen. The "lame" worldview will persist, despite your hopes to segregate it out of existence.

You see, the "women just want to be pursued' mindset IS part of the culture. If it wasn't Twilight wouldn't be such a huge hit. Or any number of pop culture tales we tell ourselves. Does even Bridget Jones have, at its core, one of those men who just won't take no for an answer, who eventually wins over the heart of our earnest heroine?

I mean, that's not the only bullshit meme we feed ourselves. Ever popular is the Disney Princess model, where the female remains inert until rescued by a man who will provide for her ever need, so she can continue to be inert, but somehow fulfilled happily ever after by the man who rides off with her on the back of his white horse.

Another popular bit of bullshit is the "find a man you want, and then tame and mold him until he's who you want him to be" school of thought, which is very popular and has ruined more than a handful of marriages of people in my life.

I think what I'm saying here, without trying to create a comprehensive catalog, is that bullshit ways of thinking about how the genders interrelate are with us in much deeper ways than can be cured by simply changing who one hangs out with in the world. These mindsets are passed down from mother to daughter, from father to son, and most insidiously, from mass media to repeat-viewer children. They run deep, and they do real harm to our culture. They may not apply to the majority of the population, not in any instance and perhaps not even when taken together. But whether they apply or not does not matter. They are shared and absorbed and acted upon. And the result is that women (and men) find themselves on the receiving end of behavior which makes no sense to them, and hence websites such as this.

The 100000 people who are MeFi members are not going to make a noticeable dent in these erroneous ways of thinking, no matter how much time is spent hanging out here.
posted by hippybear at 5:16 PM on July 15 [6 favorites]

"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it" ~ Mahatma Gandhi
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:01 PM on July 15 [4 favorites]

Man, that "Todd" story . . . I'm glad I went to women's college, is all.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:32 PM on July 15

I think it's kinda fucked to show anybody an email that somebody else sends you.

Nthed. I can't imagine publishing an e-mail I received from someone (on ANY topic) without permission. Maybe it's work-conditioning, maybe it's common sense, but that seems very wrong to me.

This makes me wonder if those irritating 20-line "This e-mail is private" signatures that some corporations enforce are a good idea. God, I hate those too, but mainly because my reaction to them is "Well of course it's private!"

I know the technical mess, but what's the LEGAL status on e-mails? Is there a "reasonable expectation of privacy?"
posted by rokusan at 7:06 PM on July 15

And folks, look: If this was a "Pyschotic Letters from Women" front page post, it would have been deleted.

Whether that's good or bad, right or wrong, meh.

A better post would have included both types right up front to short-circuit all this wankery.
posted by rokusan at 7:08 PM on July 15 [1 favorite]

Yeah, a "Hysterical Letters from Women" link would've stopped all the wankery dead.
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:43 PM on July 15

rokusan, the OP already said he looked for a psycho letters from women site - he didn't find one. Other people have posted crazy ex links, etc. in the thread.

I am one of Metafilter's outspoken feminists (although as usual, I would hope that almost ALL of the site's members are feminists) and I wouldn't automatically dismiss a site if the genders were switched - only if there was obvious misogyny on the site. People of all genders and flavors can be insane and creepy.

This site is far more disturbing (and therefore, darkly entertaining) because of the inherent obviousness that men more frequently pose a physical threat to women as opposed to women to men, and the historical treatment of women as possessions of men to do with and react to them how they (the men) please - apparently some men still feel a natural right to this line of thinking.
posted by agregoli at 7:58 PM on July 15

rokusan, the OP already said he looked for a psycho letters from women site - he didn't find one. Other people have posted crazy ex links, etc. in the thread.
. . .This site is far more disturbing (and therefore, darkly entertaining) because of the inherent obviousness that men more frequently pose a physical threat to women as opposed to women to men, and the historical treatment of women as possessions of men to do with and react to them how they (the men) please - apparently some men still feel a natural right to this line of thinking.

I sometimes don't have a clue what people are talking about but all the above makes perfect sense to me. My girlfriend (whom I'd never dream of harming despite my post above) formed the first "Take Back The Night" action group on campus here in Cookeville TN. and I'm right proud of her for it. But anyway she is always explaining what in the hell some of the folks here on Mefi are talking about when the get into sexism, and most of the time I don't understand any of it cause like I've said I'm dumber than a sack of tadpoles. But anyhow what you just said up there makes sense to me and I thought as I should say so since I'm just as likely to not understand what the hell your talking about the rest of the time.
posted by nola at 8:07 PM on July 15

I have no problem with this post, and I wouldn't have a problem with the inverse, either, unless "Meh" is a problem. I only suspect it would be beaten to a pulp quickly. Neither is very interesting. LOLCRAZYPEOPLE.
posted by rokusan at 10:28 PM on July 15

Thank you for enlightening us with your disinterest, then.
posted by agregoli at 4:59 AM on July 16

Metafilter: A forum to show you who the real bitch is.
posted by electroboy at 6:31 AM on July 16

What? Men are all pigs. With that, I have no quarrel. :)

Funnier in pictures.
posted by rokusan at 7:57 AM on July 16

The site just makes me dislike people, which isn't that much fun.
posted by theora55 at 8:22 AM on July 16