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August 12, 2009 7:52 AM Subscribe
In a similar vein to Progress Quest, but (slightly) more interactive, is... Linear RPG.
Prior micro-"RPG" post, with other fun ones to try.
Prior micro-"RPG" post, with other fun ones to try.
I don't understand.
posted by roll truck roll at 8:00 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by roll truck roll at 8:00 AM on August 12, 2009
I liked it more than Final Fantasy 8.
posted by Dr-Baa at 8:09 AM on August 12, 2009 [7 favorites]
posted by Dr-Baa at 8:09 AM on August 12, 2009 [7 favorites]
I tried all my attack spells, but I can't get past the Ice Dragon.
posted by brain_drain at 8:10 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by brain_drain at 8:10 AM on August 12, 2009
Yeah, too much grinding. The only grinding I've ever liked in any game is Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow, that was because the combat was so fun.
posted by fuq at 8:15 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by fuq at 8:15 AM on August 12, 2009
Dr-Baa: "I liked it more than Final Fantasy 8."
blasphemy! final fantasy 8 is amazing except for the end.
also, are you guys reading the background text? holy shit.
"Kliche, you have been chosen to protect the world. There is a really badass evil goth man who wears leather, a cape and an ominous bikini with matching toupee."
awesome.
posted by shmegegge at 8:17 AM on August 12, 2009
blasphemy! final fantasy 8 is amazing except for the end.
also, are you guys reading the background text? holy shit.
"Kliche, you have been chosen to protect the world. There is a really badass evil goth man who wears leather, a cape and an ominous bikini with matching toupee."
awesome.
posted by shmegegge at 8:17 AM on August 12, 2009
> I don't understand.
It's a commentary on all grindy RPGs. You walk along, the story gets told in the background, have to grind back and forth (making the story stall) until you can continue. The end.
There was a post with a bit of discussion about it over on Rock, Paper, Shotgun a while back.
posted by bjrn at 8:17 AM on August 12, 2009
It's a commentary on all grindy RPGs. You walk along, the story gets told in the background, have to grind back and forth (making the story stall) until you can continue. The end.
There was a post with a bit of discussion about it over on Rock, Paper, Shotgun a while back.
posted by bjrn at 8:17 AM on August 12, 2009
>I don't understand.
Just in case you're not joking:
It's a (not favorable) commentary on CRPGs in which grinding is a primary gameplay mechanic, and in which the narrative seems to be trying to be as much of an adolescent fantasy cliché as possible. (And this describes most CRPGs.)
Playing these games consists almost entirely of killing endless streams of inconsequential enemies who exist for the sole purpose of being killed (i.e., they aren't part of the narrative, and they don't present any real threat or challenge to the player; they're just there as a source of experience points), until you level up enough to defeat the next boss, so you can spend another several hours grinding, so you can level up and defeat another boss, and so on until you save the fucking princess.
posted by ixohoxi at 8:25 AM on August 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
Just in case you're not joking:
It's a (not favorable) commentary on CRPGs in which grinding is a primary gameplay mechanic, and in which the narrative seems to be trying to be as much of an adolescent fantasy cliché as possible. (And this describes most CRPGs.)
Playing these games consists almost entirely of killing endless streams of inconsequential enemies who exist for the sole purpose of being killed (i.e., they aren't part of the narrative, and they don't present any real threat or challenge to the player; they're just there as a source of experience points), until you level up enough to defeat the next boss, so you can spend another several hours grinding, so you can level up and defeat another boss, and so on until you save the fucking princess.
posted by ixohoxi at 8:25 AM on August 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
It's kind of clever, but the criticisms it's trying to make aren't exactly earth shattering.
If people still pay to play World of Warcraft, they both know about, and are unbothered by, the purported meaninglessness of grindy, linear games.
On the other hand, it seems plausible to me that the very fact that people care about these kinds of games gives them some value. And if you're concerned about people giving value to grindy, linear games, you need to do something more than just point out that those games are grindy and linear. You might also point out what you take to be the negative consequences of valuing such things. (And I think there probably are some. By virtue of being short and boring, this game just doesn't illustrate them.)
posted by voltairemodern at 8:26 AM on August 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
If people still pay to play World of Warcraft, they both know about, and are unbothered by, the purported meaninglessness of grindy, linear games.
On the other hand, it seems plausible to me that the very fact that people care about these kinds of games gives them some value. And if you're concerned about people giving value to grindy, linear games, you need to do something more than just point out that those games are grindy and linear. You might also point out what you take to be the negative consequences of valuing such things. (And I think there probably are some. By virtue of being short and boring, this game just doesn't illustrate them.)
posted by voltairemodern at 8:26 AM on August 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Incidentally, this is why I hate most Japanese RPGS. Generally speaking, the storylines are trite and corny, the graphics are just as formulaic and unimaginative, and they're linear as hell. You make very few actual choices as a player; you just keep going in whatever direction the game points you in.
posted by ixohoxi at 8:35 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by ixohoxi at 8:35 AM on August 12, 2009
You make very few actual choices as a player; you just keep going in whatever direction the game points you in.
The games give you plenty of choices when you're in combat. They don't give you any choices concerning the narrative. But -- serious question -- what's so important about choices affecting the narrative? I've played plenty of Mario, across its various incarnations, and it never bothered me that I couldn't say Fuck you, Princess, and join up with Bowser. Should it have?
posted by voltairemodern at 8:42 AM on August 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
The games give you plenty of choices when you're in combat. They don't give you any choices concerning the narrative. But -- serious question -- what's so important about choices affecting the narrative? I've played plenty of Mario, across its various incarnations, and it never bothered me that I couldn't say Fuck you, Princess, and join up with Bowser. Should it have?
posted by voltairemodern at 8:42 AM on August 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
If you're not reading the background text and just treating it as a "get to the end" game, you're missing out; it's hilarious and awesome:
they chased each other through the village and the Bad Guy went through a low gate and closed it behind him, the low gate locked magically and the bad guy carefully explained to Kliche that if he wanted to get through the gate and kill him, he would have to go to four dungeons, the ice dungeon, the fire dungeon, the underwater dungeon and also the dungeon of shampoo and acquire a mystic key from each, so Kliche went back to the inn
The author obviously has a lot of love/hate for this type of game. Which is as it should be.
posted by ook at 8:43 AM on August 12, 2009
they chased each other through the village and the Bad Guy went through a low gate and closed it behind him, the low gate locked magically and the bad guy carefully explained to Kliche that if he wanted to get through the gate and kill him, he would have to go to four dungeons, the ice dungeon, the fire dungeon, the underwater dungeon and also the dungeon of shampoo and acquire a mystic key from each, so Kliche went back to the inn
The author obviously has a lot of love/hate for this type of game. Which is as it should be.
posted by ook at 8:43 AM on August 12, 2009
Oh, yeah, well, while you're all here and we're talking about art games wherein one moves along a linear path while a story happens LET'S PLAY KILLER7!
posted by fuq at 8:49 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by fuq at 8:49 AM on August 12, 2009
But -- serious question -- what's so important about choices affecting the narrative? I've played plenty of Mario, across its various incarnations, and it never bothered me that I couldn't say Fuck you, Princess, and join up with Bowser. Should it have?
I think it's mainly because the whole RPG genre is based on table-top RPGs, which are arguably more collaborative story telling systems than actual games. So RPGs tend to come with an expectation that the usual elements of table-top play will be involved, such as crafting a character, participating in quests, making important decisions about how to interact with the game world. The JRPG sub-genre tends to drop these elements (for example most JRPGs drop the whole character creation mechanic and start you off with the default hero character).
Incidentally, this is why I hate most Japanese RPGS. Generally speaking, the storylines are trite and corny, the graphics are just as formulaic and unimaginative, and they're linear as hell.
The big draw for me on Japanese or console-style RPGs is a good combat system. Since that's where the majority of the gameplay is, if the combat system is fun then that can make the whole game fun regardless of the other elements. Especially in tactical RPGs, the battles can be similar to a series of chess games. I do find the story elements to be annoying sometimes, but having a walkthrough (or in the bad old days a strategy guide) can help get through any story-related wandering around fairly quickly so that most of the time can be spent on combat.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:01 AM on August 12, 2009
I think it's mainly because the whole RPG genre is based on table-top RPGs, which are arguably more collaborative story telling systems than actual games. So RPGs tend to come with an expectation that the usual elements of table-top play will be involved, such as crafting a character, participating in quests, making important decisions about how to interact with the game world. The JRPG sub-genre tends to drop these elements (for example most JRPGs drop the whole character creation mechanic and start you off with the default hero character).
Incidentally, this is why I hate most Japanese RPGS. Generally speaking, the storylines are trite and corny, the graphics are just as formulaic and unimaginative, and they're linear as hell.
The big draw for me on Japanese or console-style RPGs is a good combat system. Since that's where the majority of the gameplay is, if the combat system is fun then that can make the whole game fun regardless of the other elements. Especially in tactical RPGs, the battles can be similar to a series of chess games. I do find the story elements to be annoying sometimes, but having a walkthrough (or in the bad old days a strategy guide) can help get through any story-related wandering around fairly quickly so that most of the time can be spent on combat.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:01 AM on August 12, 2009
This is why even though 99% of the quests in open-ended games like Morrowind are combinations of {Go here, Kill A, Talk to B, Find item X} they're still quite a bit more enjoyable. TIMTOWTDI and unpredictable interactions make it fun.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 9:01 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by a robot made out of meat at 9:01 AM on August 12, 2009
In Mario there are often puzzles to figure out, although perhaps Portal is a better example. I think that's what differentiates grinding. Grinding is mindless.
posted by DU at 9:05 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by DU at 9:05 AM on August 12, 2009
>The games give you plenty of choices when you're in combat.
Yes, but there is a very limited set of choices that you'd want to make. There are maybe two or three tactical approaches that work, and they're generally pretty obvious. Once you've found an effective set of tactics, there's usually very little reason to change them, and the game becomes one big grind—until you're confronted with the big boss who's immune to your trusty fire attack, or who insists on stunning your healer all the time, or whatever. Then you're forced to think tactically again, but it's a pretty occasional thing.
Anyway, these kinds of games end up being more tactical combat simulators than RPGs—which is fine, but that's not what I want to play.
But -- serious question -- what's so important about choices affecting the narrative?
Well, I didn't specifically say "choices affecting the narrative"—I just said "choices". Even character development is a lot more contrained in Japanese-style RPGs—your character's classes are predetermined; the magic-user gets new spell abilities and the fighter gets the big shiny sword at predetermined points in the story. Likewise, if I get bored of the current setting and the current task the game has laid before me, I can't wander off and do something else (nothing productive or meaningful, anyway)—I have to do what the game wants me to do before I can do anything else. (This is where Oblivion shines. After beating it, I replayed it and completely ignored the main storyline and set my own goals—and it was just as much fun.)
That said, some choices affecting the narrative would be welcome, too—if the developers would elevate the narrative above the utter schlock of the Misunderstood and/or Accidental-Hero/Chosen-One With a Giant Sword Who Is Adored by All Female Characters and Admired by All Male Characters in the Game. I mean, narratives in books and film are there (a) to entertain us, and (b) to make us think about morality and the human condition and so forth. The juvenile crap in Final-Fantasy-like games does none of those things. They could remove the narrative entirely, and it would actually improve the game. Not that the stories in Western RPGs are much better, but most of the JRPGs I've played seem to be plotted for eight-year-olds.
posted by ixohoxi at 9:09 AM on August 12, 2009
Yes, but there is a very limited set of choices that you'd want to make. There are maybe two or three tactical approaches that work, and they're generally pretty obvious. Once you've found an effective set of tactics, there's usually very little reason to change them, and the game becomes one big grind—until you're confronted with the big boss who's immune to your trusty fire attack, or who insists on stunning your healer all the time, or whatever. Then you're forced to think tactically again, but it's a pretty occasional thing.
Anyway, these kinds of games end up being more tactical combat simulators than RPGs—which is fine, but that's not what I want to play.
But -- serious question -- what's so important about choices affecting the narrative?
Well, I didn't specifically say "choices affecting the narrative"—I just said "choices". Even character development is a lot more contrained in Japanese-style RPGs—your character's classes are predetermined; the magic-user gets new spell abilities and the fighter gets the big shiny sword at predetermined points in the story. Likewise, if I get bored of the current setting and the current task the game has laid before me, I can't wander off and do something else (nothing productive or meaningful, anyway)—I have to do what the game wants me to do before I can do anything else. (This is where Oblivion shines. After beating it, I replayed it and completely ignored the main storyline and set my own goals—and it was just as much fun.)
That said, some choices affecting the narrative would be welcome, too—if the developers would elevate the narrative above the utter schlock of the Misunderstood and/or Accidental-Hero/Chosen-One With a Giant Sword Who Is Adored by All Female Characters and Admired by All Male Characters in the Game. I mean, narratives in books and film are there (a) to entertain us, and (b) to make us think about morality and the human condition and so forth. The juvenile crap in Final-Fantasy-like games does none of those things. They could remove the narrative entirely, and it would actually improve the game. Not that the stories in Western RPGs are much better, but most of the JRPGs I've played seem to be plotted for eight-year-olds.
posted by ixohoxi at 9:09 AM on August 12, 2009
Yeah the storylines behind most Japanese RPGs I've played are really cringe-worthy.
posted by Mister_A at 9:12 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by Mister_A at 9:12 AM on August 12, 2009
The greatest tmtowtdi game of all time is undisputably nethack. Sadly, the progress quest homepage mentions that the ubuntu version of progress quest is more popular than the ubuntu version of nethack, based on popcon data. That is really really sad.
posted by idiopath at 9:17 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by idiopath at 9:17 AM on August 12, 2009
voltairemodern: "I've played plenty of Mario, across its various incarnations, and it never bothered me that I couldn't say Fuck you, Princess, and join up with Bowser. Should it have?"
it's not a fair point, but (aside from the mario rpg series) imagine if mario games involved running in a straight line with no jumping and every 5-20 minutes or so you would encounter one bad guy.
now imagine doing that for 80 hours.
I'm exaggerating, obviously, and I'm a fan of jRPGs. but there are serious criticisms to be made. specifically that the actual choices you believe you're making are false and that the skill you think you're developing and using to defeat the game is likewise false. in far too many of these games, the choice of what path to take in a dungeon or town or whatever will always fall into one of several categories:
1. you have to go back eventually and take the other path because at the end of it is a key necessary to open the gate at the end of the path you took.
2. you have to go back eventually because the path you took only had a key at the end of it and the other path has the gate the key fits.
3. you missed the best weapon in the game by choosing the wrong path and you'll never be able to go back and get it. this will make battles (the only obstacle to advancement in the game) more difficult than they need to be.
4. the path you took was a dead end, but one you needed to take in order to advance the story enough so that the character at the end of the other path will continue advancing the story further. (a variation on the key/gate choice above)
what choices you make in battles are too often false, as well. more times than not every battle in the game except for bosses and mini-bosses can be beaten by repeatedly mashing A (or X or whatever) to attack by default because the lesser enemies are just xp fodder to make you strong enough to defeat the boss. in point of fact, this is too often your ONLY real strategy because you need to save up your spell points (or mana, or whatever) for the magic needed to defeat the boss at the end of the level. better RPGs put save points immediately in front of boss battles so you can rest up and restore your stats without worrying about how much mana you've spent till then, but all that does is make all battle choices arbitrary because you can do whatever you feel like, but the battles can still all be beaten by mashing the attack command. this is why almost every RPG party will be 2 attack characters, and 2 healers (variations of same including 2 attack characters, 1 healer with 1 "versatile" character like a red mage and stuff like that) you attack attack attack, and after the battle your healers cast cure until you're back to health so that, in the event the game forces you to run out of mana you still have your potions to fall back on. it stops being a choice and becomes the only rational way to play the game.
there are better games in the genre that defy these conventions, of course, and thank god for those. but the conventions are unfortunately all too prevalent.
posted by shmegegge at 9:18 AM on August 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
it's not a fair point, but (aside from the mario rpg series) imagine if mario games involved running in a straight line with no jumping and every 5-20 minutes or so you would encounter one bad guy.
now imagine doing that for 80 hours.
I'm exaggerating, obviously, and I'm a fan of jRPGs. but there are serious criticisms to be made. specifically that the actual choices you believe you're making are false and that the skill you think you're developing and using to defeat the game is likewise false. in far too many of these games, the choice of what path to take in a dungeon or town or whatever will always fall into one of several categories:
1. you have to go back eventually and take the other path because at the end of it is a key necessary to open the gate at the end of the path you took.
2. you have to go back eventually because the path you took only had a key at the end of it and the other path has the gate the key fits.
3. you missed the best weapon in the game by choosing the wrong path and you'll never be able to go back and get it. this will make battles (the only obstacle to advancement in the game) more difficult than they need to be.
4. the path you took was a dead end, but one you needed to take in order to advance the story enough so that the character at the end of the other path will continue advancing the story further. (a variation on the key/gate choice above)
what choices you make in battles are too often false, as well. more times than not every battle in the game except for bosses and mini-bosses can be beaten by repeatedly mashing A (or X or whatever) to attack by default because the lesser enemies are just xp fodder to make you strong enough to defeat the boss. in point of fact, this is too often your ONLY real strategy because you need to save up your spell points (or mana, or whatever) for the magic needed to defeat the boss at the end of the level. better RPGs put save points immediately in front of boss battles so you can rest up and restore your stats without worrying about how much mana you've spent till then, but all that does is make all battle choices arbitrary because you can do whatever you feel like, but the battles can still all be beaten by mashing the attack command. this is why almost every RPG party will be 2 attack characters, and 2 healers (variations of same including 2 attack characters, 1 healer with 1 "versatile" character like a red mage and stuff like that) you attack attack attack, and after the battle your healers cast cure until you're back to health so that, in the event the game forces you to run out of mana you still have your potions to fall back on. it stops being a choice and becomes the only rational way to play the game.
there are better games in the genre that defy these conventions, of course, and thank god for those. but the conventions are unfortunately all too prevalent.
posted by shmegegge at 9:18 AM on August 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
Most of these problems would be solved (or at least bearable) with a drastically shorter running time. After the 30-40 hour mark, even the most entertaining combat system becomes a total chore for me. Let alone 80 hours, which seems like the default length these days. Why not reduce the game's running time to 15 hours (I think this is roughly Chrono Trigger's length), remove all random encounters, and space out combat enough so that it's interesting and unusual each time? Then add a lot of quirky unusual stuff (Earthbound) to make the story at least minimally entertaining? Or better yet, just make me a game designer.
posted by naju at 9:26 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by naju at 9:26 AM on August 12, 2009
Also, sidequests are present in every JRPG I've played, and help to achive non-linearity. The problem is that 1) there usually aren't enough of them, 2) they are sometimes hard to find, and 3) they rarely present lengthy new sections of game. Changing this would help without altering the basic format of a JRPG, I think. (Props to Chrono Trigger again for getting this stuff right.)
posted by naju at 9:32 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by naju at 9:32 AM on August 12, 2009
>imagine if mario games involved running in a straight line with no jumping and every 5-20 minutes or so you would encounter one bad guy.
This. A game that's devoid of meaningful choices is just as linear as a game that's devoid of choices entirely.
A game in which success depends more on how much time you're willing to sit on the couch (performing mindless, repetitive tasks by rote—whether that means "pushing right on the controller" or "winning a hundred tactically identical battles in a row") than on skill or judicious decision-making isn't much of a game at all.
posted by ixohoxi at 9:40 AM on August 12, 2009
This. A game that's devoid of meaningful choices is just as linear as a game that's devoid of choices entirely.
A game in which success depends more on how much time you're willing to sit on the couch (performing mindless, repetitive tasks by rote—whether that means "pushing right on the controller" or "winning a hundred tactically identical battles in a row") than on skill or judicious decision-making isn't much of a game at all.
posted by ixohoxi at 9:40 AM on August 12, 2009
Life is grindy.
posted by Meatbomb at 9:41 AM on August 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 9:41 AM on August 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
Anyway, these kinds of games end up being more tactical combat simulators than RPGs—which is fine, but that's not what I want to play.
It eventually got to the point that the genres of RPG with tactical combat elements (such as Final Fantasy Tactics or Fallout Tactics) and Tactical combat games with RPG elements (such as Jagged Alliance or Silent Storm) ended up being more or less functionally equivalent. Unfortunately for both genres, the industry moved away from turn-based games in general which tended to push those kinds of games in the Action RPG direction with more of an emphasis on reflexes and button-mashing and less on tactics and strategy.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:42 AM on August 12, 2009
It eventually got to the point that the genres of RPG with tactical combat elements (such as Final Fantasy Tactics or Fallout Tactics) and Tactical combat games with RPG elements (such as Jagged Alliance or Silent Storm) ended up being more or less functionally equivalent. Unfortunately for both genres, the industry moved away from turn-based games in general which tended to push those kinds of games in the Action RPG direction with more of an emphasis on reflexes and button-mashing and less on tactics and strategy.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:42 AM on August 12, 2009
Grinding is an interesting thing to think about.
(This game is f'ing awesome, btw)
In psychology people talk about variable reward schedules which pretty much just means that there's progress with a little element of gambling.
Oddly, I find myself super susceptible to that stuff even when I'm aware it's happening. I maxed out about 5 characters in Morrowind just to get that feeling. It's what keeps me going in Warcraft, because I don't really like having to play with other people, but I love the size of the world and the possible rewards. I realized at some point (I think Progress Quest was the catalyst, actually) that I pretty much could allocate exp points and manage skill trees until the cows come home.
All of the other elements of games I love (story, graphics, action, soundtrack) pretty much come in second to a well thought out skill system and decent advancement.
I'm sure there's some deep seated unpleasant psychological reason for this, but I spent my therapy money pre-ordering mass effect 2.
posted by lumpenprole at 9:43 AM on August 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
(This game is f'ing awesome, btw)
In psychology people talk about variable reward schedules which pretty much just means that there's progress with a little element of gambling.
Oddly, I find myself super susceptible to that stuff even when I'm aware it's happening. I maxed out about 5 characters in Morrowind just to get that feeling. It's what keeps me going in Warcraft, because I don't really like having to play with other people, but I love the size of the world and the possible rewards. I realized at some point (I think Progress Quest was the catalyst, actually) that I pretty much could allocate exp points and manage skill trees until the cows come home.
All of the other elements of games I love (story, graphics, action, soundtrack) pretty much come in second to a well thought out skill system and decent advancement.
I'm sure there's some deep seated unpleasant psychological reason for this, but I spent my therapy money pre-ordering mass effect 2.
posted by lumpenprole at 9:43 AM on August 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
fuck. that comment should have said "it's not a fair point." apologies.
posted by shmegegge at 9:51 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by shmegegge at 9:51 AM on August 12, 2009
*Reads the first quarter-page of comments, registers the criticisms*
*Control-f's "Chrono Trigger"*
*Sees that the game has been given its due as the perfect answer (the cool lemonade in the desert, if you will) to all the RPG's that are uninterestingly plotted, restrictively linear, and completely built on repititive grinding*
*Returns to playing Chrono Trigger*
posted by Rumpled at 9:59 AM on August 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
*Control-f's "Chrono Trigger"*
*Sees that the game has been given its due as the perfect answer (the cool lemonade in the desert, if you will) to all the RPG's that are uninterestingly plotted, restrictively linear, and completely built on repititive grinding*
*Returns to playing Chrono Trigger*
posted by Rumpled at 9:59 AM on August 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
Sadly, the progress quest homepage mentions that the ubuntu version of progress quest is more popular than the ubuntu version of nethack, based on popcon data. That is really really sad.
Who bothers installing nethack? Public server, man.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:18 AM on August 12, 2009
Who bothers installing nethack? Public server, man.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:18 AM on August 12, 2009
This thread suddenly makes me wonder why I keep playing Metafilter. It's not a bad thread....it's just, I've been grinding here for like 5 years now and I can't remember ever leveling up, moving the plot forward, anything. Can someone at least point me towards a store or a wizard or something where can I trade favorites for xp and maybe a better shield?
posted by sleevener at 10:24 AM on August 12, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by sleevener at 10:24 AM on August 12, 2009 [6 favorites]
Single-player RPGs with pretensions of good storytelling and good battle mechanics should have different modes of play.
There should be a way to play the game that focuses on story but lets you dip your feet into the combat system.
There should be a way to grind grind grind, if that's what you want to do.
You should be able to choose what you want to do at the outset, so that the game is presented to you in a coherent way according to your preference.
Games that are less linear are trying to accomplish something similar, but at the expense of a rewarding combat experience -- I'm thinking Fable and its sequel, here. In order to make combat-grinding optional, the combat is far too easy. An explicit, up-front choice about how much grinding you're in for would remove that tension.
posted by gurple at 10:32 AM on August 12, 2009
There should be a way to play the game that focuses on story but lets you dip your feet into the combat system.
There should be a way to grind grind grind, if that's what you want to do.
You should be able to choose what you want to do at the outset, so that the game is presented to you in a coherent way according to your preference.
Games that are less linear are trying to accomplish something similar, but at the expense of a rewarding combat experience -- I'm thinking Fable and its sequel, here. In order to make combat-grinding optional, the combat is far too easy. An explicit, up-front choice about how much grinding you're in for would remove that tension.
posted by gurple at 10:32 AM on August 12, 2009
is like worst final fantasy, played on ugliest playstation
posted by threetoed at 10:56 AM on August 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by threetoed at 10:56 AM on August 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
>This thread suddenly makes me wonder why I keep playing Metafilter.
Oh. My. God. If someone wrote a Greasemonkey script that added RPG elements to MetaFilter, it would officially be the most addictive thing ever.
Someone get to it.
posted by ixohoxi at 11:00 AM on August 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Oh. My. God. If someone wrote a Greasemonkey script that added RPG elements to MetaFilter, it would officially be the most addictive thing ever.
Someone get to it.
posted by ixohoxi at 11:00 AM on August 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Jeremy Parish recently wrote a good piece about why Chrono Trigger continues to stand apart from the mass of "average" JRPGs. He argues that the CD-ROM format inflated gamers' expectations of time per game, forcing developers to pad their product with incessant grinding. Interestingly, it was the re-release of Chrono Trigger- now with added bloat!- that pointed this out to him.
Translated Japanese games are getting slammed pretty hard in the West these days- anything that isn't heavily marketed is selling badly (Persona is the rare exception, probably due to its unusual setting). Maybe developers will return to streamlined experiences. Of course, then they'll have to justify the high cost of games in some other way besides length.
posted by Maxson at 11:03 AM on August 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Translated Japanese games are getting slammed pretty hard in the West these days- anything that isn't heavily marketed is selling badly (Persona is the rare exception, probably due to its unusual setting). Maybe developers will return to streamlined experiences. Of course, then they'll have to justify the high cost of games in some other way besides length.
posted by Maxson at 11:03 AM on August 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
There's a section in the recently translated Mother 3 where the main protagonist has to 'work' -- that is, you have to push around these things for what is supposed to be a deliberately tedious amount of time. I thought it was a nice meta-commentary within the game itself on the mechanics of the game; that was one of the points where I really started to respect Mother 3.
posted by suedehead at 11:11 AM on August 12, 2009
posted by suedehead at 11:11 AM on August 12, 2009
Oh. My. God. If someone wrote a Greasemonkey script that added RPG elements to MetaFilter, it would officially be the most addictive thing ever.
Someone get to it.
Check your mefimail for a beta key.
kidding, unfortunately
posted by juv3nal at 11:54 AM on August 12, 2009
Someone get to it.
Check your mefimail for a beta key.
kidding, unfortunately
posted by juv3nal at 11:54 AM on August 12, 2009
I leaned a hammer against the left arrow key for a while -- you gain levels but don't lose health trying to go "backwards" from the starting point -- and came back when I was level 41. Then I walked directly to the end, reading the JRPG-criticism background text as it scrolled by.
The moral of the story? Kids, it's easy to cheat at badly coded games!
posted by majick at 11:54 AM on August 12, 2009
The moral of the story? Kids, it's easy to cheat at badly coded games!
posted by majick at 11:54 AM on August 12, 2009
You don't even need a hammer. At least in Firefox, you can hold left and tab to another window... the game will not register the key up event and you will keep moving left, gaining levels.
This technique does have an analogue in JRPGs, namely, in FF6 where you hook up a turbo controller as you are escaping from the Returners Camp through the falls. If you start at the right time, you will automatically pick a path that leads you in a circle, meanwhile killing all the enemies you come across. Come back sometime later and waltz to victory.
posted by cacophony at 12:22 PM on August 12, 2009
This technique does have an analogue in JRPGs, namely, in FF6 where you hook up a turbo controller as you are escaping from the Returners Camp through the falls. If you start at the right time, you will automatically pick a path that leads you in a circle, meanwhile killing all the enemies you come across. Come back sometime later and waltz to victory.
posted by cacophony at 12:22 PM on August 12, 2009
In any halfway decent JRPG (well, okay, it takes a good JRPG), battles are an efficiency puzzle; the combat game is about resource management. You can win by attacking inefficiently, but you'll actually be losing ground. You'll use MP faster than you should, you'll burn through items faster than you should... You can actually then fuck yourself thinking that you can just grind to be strong enough to compensate for your brain-dead playing style, and then you get bored and quit and go online and make facile generalizations about JRPGs because you never figured out how to one-hit a monster or stop its counter-attack or concentrate damage on the one in the back etc. etc. etc.
posted by fleacircus at 12:27 PM on August 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by fleacircus at 12:27 PM on August 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
yeah, very true. I remember FFXII completely blowing my expectations out of the water on the genre conventions front. Really good game.
Lost Odyssey, for everything that's wrong with it, is a game that really requires some thought and advanced preparation to get through its dungeons.
posted by shmegegge at 12:33 PM on August 12, 2009
Lost Odyssey, for everything that's wrong with it, is a game that really requires some thought and advanced preparation to get through its dungeons.
posted by shmegegge at 12:33 PM on August 12, 2009
For combat-oriented, but somehow non-grinding RPG:s I have fond memories of SSI's Gold Box series, especially The Dark Queen of Krynn (1992). It had lots of fights, but they were interesting and either difficult or rewarding because of the power you wielded. Somehow it managed to avoid many pitfalls highlighted here.
It had 6 fully player created characters, with maybe one or two npc:s who have joined your party (fully in your control) in ancient AD&D second edition rules. It should lead to endless hack'n'slash, but somehow it worked: Monsters were various with powerful special attacks and especially enemy magic users pre-buffed with really strong resistances and backlashing shields, requiring some desperate tactics for hurting them before they nuked your party with Delayed Blast Fireballs. Your own spells kept getting stronger and stronger, never maxing out, giving huge satisfaction at the final quarter.
Magic items were predictable, you found them at some point and the major decision was who wields what and with what. Your characters had personality not because of their stats, skills or their scripted dialog, but because of how you ended up using them in combat. Combat itself was great in those times, because there was room for a big fight. Movement and character placing was all, especially in DQoK, with many enemies who exploded at death or had some other nasty area effects.
Even buffing was in comfortable balance. You couldn't really explore places with all buffs on, you had to save them for tough zones (meaning that the boring buffing phase didn't felt routine, it was preparation when you really felt you needed it). Resting was rare enough that you had to take chances and save your best spells.
Because of AD&D 2nd ed. rules, the experience from fights was small compared to level requirements, which meant that quest exp. rewards ended up being larger and larger, and instead of grinding monsters for experience, you wanted to find meaningful stuff to do.
posted by Free word order! at 12:54 PM on August 12, 2009
It had 6 fully player created characters, with maybe one or two npc:s who have joined your party (fully in your control) in ancient AD&D second edition rules. It should lead to endless hack'n'slash, but somehow it worked: Monsters were various with powerful special attacks and especially enemy magic users pre-buffed with really strong resistances and backlashing shields, requiring some desperate tactics for hurting them before they nuked your party with Delayed Blast Fireballs. Your own spells kept getting stronger and stronger, never maxing out, giving huge satisfaction at the final quarter.
Magic items were predictable, you found them at some point and the major decision was who wields what and with what. Your characters had personality not because of their stats, skills or their scripted dialog, but because of how you ended up using them in combat. Combat itself was great in those times, because there was room for a big fight. Movement and character placing was all, especially in DQoK, with many enemies who exploded at death or had some other nasty area effects.
Even buffing was in comfortable balance. You couldn't really explore places with all buffs on, you had to save them for tough zones (meaning that the boring buffing phase didn't felt routine, it was preparation when you really felt you needed it). Resting was rare enough that you had to take chances and save your best spells.
Because of AD&D 2nd ed. rules, the experience from fights was small compared to level requirements, which meant that quest exp. rewards ended up being larger and larger, and instead of grinding monsters for experience, you wanted to find meaningful stuff to do.
posted by Free word order! at 12:54 PM on August 12, 2009
ixohoxi, I believe The Nethernet (formerly PMOG) is the beginnings of just that.
It's not limited to MetaFilter, obviously, but it is a weird, grindy, pointless, addictive "game" that plays out via your interweb wanderings. I do wish there was a similar concept that was limited to just a single domain, and was better integrated into the web experience.
posted by snapped at 1:11 PM on August 12, 2009
It's not limited to MetaFilter, obviously, but it is a weird, grindy, pointless, addictive "game" that plays out via your interweb wanderings. I do wish there was a similar concept that was limited to just a single domain, and was better integrated into the web experience.
posted by snapped at 1:11 PM on August 12, 2009
Lost Odyssey, for everything that's wrong with it, is a game that really requires some thought and advanced preparation to get through its dungeons.
To it's credit, although I never really got into it, Lost Odyssey was also a lot less grindy than other jrpgs. If you over-levelled, the xp return per fight dwindled super fast. The dungeons I don't remember much about, but I remember the boss fights being very challenging (in a tactical way, not in the level MOAR way).
posted by juv3nal at 1:25 PM on August 12, 2009
To it's credit, although I never really got into it, Lost Odyssey was also a lot less grindy than other jrpgs. If you over-levelled, the xp return per fight dwindled super fast. The dungeons I don't remember much about, but I remember the boss fights being very challenging (in a tactical way, not in the level MOAR way).
posted by juv3nal at 1:25 PM on August 12, 2009
There's a section in the recently translated Mother 3 where the main protagonist has to 'work' -- that is, you have to push around these things for what is supposed to be a deliberately tedious amount of time. I thought it was a nice meta-commentary within the game itself on the mechanics of the game
If you like this, then you'll love Baito Hell 2000 aka Work Time Fun for the PSP. The game is more or less a collection of minigames a la WarioWare, and it features a relatively standard grinding mechanic for earning points and spending them on unlocking new games and achievements. The thing that makes it unique is that the whole game is supposed to be "work" rather than games, so that many of the games are designed to be grueling and/or annoying rather than fun.
For example, the ultimate unfun grinding game included is a minigame where you work in an assembly line to cap ballpoint pens (which is just a matter of hitting a few buttons), which awards a very small amount of in-game money for each pen and rather than ending just has a huge counter on top that ticks up to millions of pens. Most of the games that are unlocked at the start are either simplistic or annoying, and unlocking the games that are actually fun (which happens through putting money in prize machines that rarely spit out new games) takes a lot grinding through games that aren't really worth playing. One of the best ways to make in-game money is to play a game that tells the user to wait for a specific time of day in real life (which could be many hours away), leave the PSP on for that period of time (which may require powering it via the AC adapter), and then be there at the specified time to spin the joystick around a few times.
In any halfway decent JRPG (well, okay, it takes a good JRPG), battles are an efficiency puzzle; the combat game is about resource management. You can win by attacking inefficiently, but you'll actually be losing ground.
In Work Time Fun there's also a minigame that reduces the RPG to exactly this. It has a barebones dungeon crawler RPG interface that only allows the player to attack, use an item, or run away, and the player has to defeat 100 enemies in a row. Even though it's extremely simple, it's also extremely difficult to get very far without doing a great job of organizing the inventory of items collected from enemies and using the right weapons and items against the right enemies. It's kind of the opposite of the Mother 3 example above, it's a RPG parody inside of a purposely tedious grinding game instead of a tedious grinding game parody inside of a RPG.
posted by burnmp3s at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2009
If you like this, then you'll love Baito Hell 2000 aka Work Time Fun for the PSP. The game is more or less a collection of minigames a la WarioWare, and it features a relatively standard grinding mechanic for earning points and spending them on unlocking new games and achievements. The thing that makes it unique is that the whole game is supposed to be "work" rather than games, so that many of the games are designed to be grueling and/or annoying rather than fun.
For example, the ultimate unfun grinding game included is a minigame where you work in an assembly line to cap ballpoint pens (which is just a matter of hitting a few buttons), which awards a very small amount of in-game money for each pen and rather than ending just has a huge counter on top that ticks up to millions of pens. Most of the games that are unlocked at the start are either simplistic or annoying, and unlocking the games that are actually fun (which happens through putting money in prize machines that rarely spit out new games) takes a lot grinding through games that aren't really worth playing. One of the best ways to make in-game money is to play a game that tells the user to wait for a specific time of day in real life (which could be many hours away), leave the PSP on for that period of time (which may require powering it via the AC adapter), and then be there at the specified time to spin the joystick around a few times.
In any halfway decent JRPG (well, okay, it takes a good JRPG), battles are an efficiency puzzle; the combat game is about resource management. You can win by attacking inefficiently, but you'll actually be losing ground.
In Work Time Fun there's also a minigame that reduces the RPG to exactly this. It has a barebones dungeon crawler RPG interface that only allows the player to attack, use an item, or run away, and the player has to defeat 100 enemies in a row. Even though it's extremely simple, it's also extremely difficult to get very far without doing a great job of organizing the inventory of items collected from enemies and using the right weapons and items against the right enemies. It's kind of the opposite of the Mother 3 example above, it's a RPG parody inside of a purposely tedious grinding game instead of a tedious grinding game parody inside of a RPG.
posted by burnmp3s at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2009
I've played plenty of Mario, across its various incarnations, and it never bothered me that I couldn't say Fuck you, Princess, and join up with Bowser. Should it have?
I can't believe no one has linked to this yet.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 2:45 PM on August 12, 2009
I can't believe no one has linked to this yet.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 2:45 PM on August 12, 2009
There's a section in the recently translated Mother 3 where the main protagonist has to 'work' -- that is, you have to push around these things for what is supposed to be a deliberately tedious amount of time. I thought it was a nice meta-commentary within the game itself on the mechanics of the game; that was one of the points where I really started to respect Mother 3.
posted by suedehead at 2:11 PM on August 12 [+] [!]
Heh. There was a similar scenario in the Paper Mario game for the Wii where Mario gets sold into slavery and is forced to "work"-- by repeatedly jumping and hitting a box to generate electricity. Fun stuff.
posted by Ziggy Zaga at 3:30 PM on August 12, 2009
posted by suedehead at 2:11 PM on August 12 [+] [!]
Heh. There was a similar scenario in the Paper Mario game for the Wii where Mario gets sold into slavery and is forced to "work"-- by repeatedly jumping and hitting a box to generate electricity. Fun stuff.
posted by Ziggy Zaga at 3:30 PM on August 12, 2009
Is it bad that all video games look like this one to me?
posted by MoreForMad at 3:48 PM on August 12, 2009
posted by MoreForMad at 3:48 PM on August 12, 2009
...pegacorn (N.B. Thats a unicorn with wings, they fart rainbows and shit diamonds and are totally awesome, Chuck Norris has eight)
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:13 PM on August 12, 2009
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:13 PM on August 12, 2009
Oh, Progress Quest made to Ubuntu? Sweet!
Is there a final boss on Linear Quest?
posted by Pronoiac at 4:39 PM on August 12, 2009
Is there a final boss on Linear Quest?
posted by Pronoiac at 4:39 PM on August 12, 2009
in FF6 where you hook up a turbo controller as you are escaping from the Returners Camp through the falls. If you start at the right time, you will automatically pick a path that leads you in a circle, meanwhile killing all the enemies you come across. Come back sometime later and waltz to victory.
Except then, because people who come into your party have the average level of the party, you can't level, which means no esper levelling bonuses. Which would be sad, because, buffing up on espers is the way to do the real ass-kicking in that game. (Man, I lost a lot of hours to that game as a kid!)
posted by blenderfish at 9:24 PM on August 12, 2009
Except then, because people who come into your party have the average level of the party, you can't level, which means no esper levelling bonuses. Which would be sad, because, buffing up on espers is the way to do the real ass-kicking in that game. (Man, I lost a lot of hours to that game as a kid!)
posted by blenderfish at 9:24 PM on August 12, 2009
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posted by silby at 7:58 AM on August 12, 2009