Bless your weapons...

August 17, 2009 6:39 AM

In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war. Space Hulk returns.

UK manufacturer Games Workshop has just announced a re-release of the classic board game Space Hulk. The original version is much loved by it's fans, at it remains an iconic portion of the Warhammer 40k mythos. It also spawned two separate PC adaptations.

Burn the heretic! Kill the mutant! Purge the unclean!

posted by WinnipegDragon (82 comments total)

SWEET!

My brother was much more into 40K than I ever was, but the speed and simplicity of Space Hulk made it one of my favourite games back in the Nineties. It was really easy to set up a game, to come up with your own scenarios and to have some pretty complex and involving games even with a very, very simple ruleset.

My wife will shoot me for being such a giant nerd and reverting to my early teens, but I'm so getting this.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:47 AM on August 17

Does thsi in some way relate to me getting my hands on Star Craft 2?
posted by kbanas at 6:48 AM on August 17

GRAR! SPACE HULK SMASH!!!

*taps microphone*

Is this thing on?
posted by Mister_A at 6:53 AM on August 17

That's SPACE SMASH, thank you.
posted by Naberius at 7:02 AM on August 17 [1 favorite]

Awesome. Now we just need to get some Hero Quest up ins and we're all set.

The quality of GW's plastic models has risen so dramatically over the past decade or so. I remember trying to put together a 'nids army in 2001 and being really disappointed in the quality of the genestealers (especially when placed next to the then new gaunts).

I hope they expand the setting for Space Hulk some. Fighting stealers is awesome, but doing Hulk-style crawls of a Necron tombworld or a Dark Eldar slave ship would be pretty dang awesome.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:02 AM on August 17 [1 favorite]

That sounded a lot like a Gastr Del Sol song.
posted by interrobang at 7:03 AM on August 17

It also spawned two separate PC adaptations.

I've never played the board game, but the computer games were some of the best of their time. With only one enemy type and very basic level designs it wasn't very impressive at first glance, but there was a lot of depth beneath the surface. The sound design was great, and frantically switching between squad members to keep everyone alive created some real tension. Even though the game was way too hard and I could only beat half of the levels, it was still fun to try to hold the Genestealers off for as long as possible.
posted by burnmp3s at 7:04 AM on August 17

*blip*
posted by Artw at 7:17 AM on August 17 [2 favorites]

Ah well, no pre-order for me today - their website appears to be getting absolutely smooshed under the interest for this game.

And it's a limited edition, single print run. Which I don't really understand - why not release and support it as an ongoing thing? I'll be well miffed if this sells out before I snag a copy.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:21 AM on August 17

I LOVED the PC game Space Hulk. It was my introduction to Warhammer 40K, and came bundled with my external 2x SCSI CD drive.

burnmp3s hit the nail on the head. The graphic design was sickeningly simple, but the level of tension was excruciating, and underneath the surface were some rich nuances.

I played and played and played until I was able to complete the game. Typical for me, it's a game that few others seemed to ever have heard of, much less to have played. My victory is like a hole in one that nobody witnessed.
posted by Xoebe at 7:21 AM on August 17

Of course it ent downhill after they started messing around with it and expanded it too far - which is standard for GW. I wonder if this will have the simplicity of the original or the messyness of the final result.

ONLY WAR!
posted by Artw at 7:23 AM on August 17

Happy Dave, I know what you mean. I wanted to mention that it is a 'while supplies last' limited run, but it felt a bit too Pepsi GrimDark for the post if you know what I mean.

Yeah, I'll be putting a deposit down as soon as my local GW opens tomorrow.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 7:26 AM on August 17

Anyone play Space Crusade, which was like a Heroquest/space hulk hybrid? That ended up being the one that our little gaming group played the most.
posted by Artw at 7:27 AM on August 17

Yeah, I really don't get why they'd do that. I mean, sure, every game they release means they need to keep some table space in their stores for games, feature it in White Dwarf, etc etc, but Space Hulk is the perfect 'gateway drug' for the 40K Universe - it's easy to learn, easy to play, endlessly flexible and quick to play. The modular board means creating new layouts is as simple as making a jigsaw, and the backstory and everything else is proper space Gothic horror stuff, not dumbed down shit like Space Crusade.

I'm sure they've done their benefits analysis on this, and the limited print run might be a ruse to generate initial interest, but it just seems odd to me that they wouldn't consider reintroducing this fantastic game on a permanent basis.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:31 AM on August 17

Heh, sorry Artw. Sure it's great and stuff, but I liked the dark backstory and atmosphere of Space Hulk a lot better.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:32 AM on August 17

Can I also say that I think the original Space Hulk had, for it's time, one of the best intros that I can remember.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 7:37 AM on August 17

Oh, Space Crusade was much more of a kids boardgame than the grrah angstyness of 40k proper, and much more down to luck and playing gimmicky cards at the right time, but good fun nonetheless.

Advanced Space Crusade, which was more Hulk like, was awful though.
posted by Artw at 7:38 AM on August 17

Totally, Happy Dave. They could even reskin the whole thing to feature the successor Blood Ravens chapter from Dawn of War instead of the founding Blood Angels. That'd get folks who are interested in the setting to pick up the game without as much of the cost-stigma of building a Warhammer army.

Now, if I were King of the Nerds, I'd decree that a Gaunt's Ghosts version of Space Hulk be made. Instead of Space Marines, you get members of the Tanith First and Only, each with their own abilities and skills, facing down Blood Pact forces. Could you imagine how fucking awesome a Cuu model would be? Fucking awesome, sure as sure.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:40 AM on August 17

Ah, the days when game devs did their own voice acting.

"To the left! Overwatch!"

"Duuuurrrr."

Pew Pew Pew!
posted by Happy Dave at 7:40 AM on August 17 [1 favorite]

Download the original space hulk PC game here. I just did and it's goodbye to the rest of my working day...
posted by ciderwoman at 7:44 AM on August 17 [2 favorites]

I love Space Hulk and the boxes are keeping vigil somewhere in my parents' basement (somewhere? who am I kidding, I know exactly where they are) but the game I ended up playing the most was Necromunda.
posted by Kattullus at 7:52 AM on August 17

Haha! Ordered.

Sanctify the autocannons. We're going in.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:53 AM on August 17

Wait, there are people who BEAT the PC game??!
posted by naju at 7:55 AM on August 17 [3 favorites]

That's SPACE SMASH, thank you.

Surely this is space Smash...
posted by Grangousier at 7:57 AM on August 17

But the real question is: First edition rules or second?
posted by Windopaene at 8:01 AM on August 17

There was also a revamp of the older PC version of the game done by Teardown - however they had to take down their newest version (and links to prior versions, from the look of it) when THQ put the clamp down. The revamp runs really smooth on current machines, unlike the original which can take some fiddling and slowdown progs. If you look around for "Teardown Space Hulk" you can find the older versions without much issue.

What I've always wanted was a PC version of Necromunda - all the fun squadbuilding and grunt levelling, without the risk that an errant elbow will accidentally topple half of the Underhive you just spent two hours setting up...
posted by FatherDagon at 8:08 AM on August 17

Rock, Paper Shotgun article on the 1993 PC game.
posted by naju at 8:24 AM on August 17 [1 favorite]

The one thing I've learned about this is that you can spell dispatched two ways. But I don't like despatched, and neither does Firefox's spell-checker.
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 8:31 AM on August 17

Oh man what if Braniac, in the present, created a virus that replaced all the DNA of everybody with his evil DNA and so all the people in the whole world became totally bad and Hulk was surrounded by all the bad people and, in a last desperate attempt to escape, he jumped into space and went into suspended animation? Then the thing says "3000 years in the future" and Hulk wakes up while entering into the atmosphere of an alien planet after drifting in space for 3000 years and he is all covered in like asteroid-looking rock patches that grew on him while he was asleep that give him the power to jump between worlds and so he isn't really Hulk anymore, but now he is Space Hulk and when he gets down to the planet he realizes he is in the future and the evil human race that Braniac created have now become a futuristic space empire of all evil people! So the entire series is Hulk jumping from futuristic evil world to futuristic evil world just fucking up the evil galactic empire. HULK SMASH FLYING CAR! Maybe there is a resistance of people who have a mutation where the evil DNA was weeded out that help Hulk and maybe the asteroid stuff on him becomes like Venom in a later storyline. That would be awesome. Call me Marvel.
posted by ND¢ at 8:35 AM on August 17 [1 favorite]

Braniac: From the bowels of the Earth, this villain plots evil with every fiber of his being. Only Space Hulk can relieve the horrible pressure Braniac builds in mankind!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:40 AM on August 17 [1 favorite]

Aw man.
posted by ND¢ at 8:42 AM on August 17

I loved the backstory, design, and iconography of this game. As a youth I spent hundreds of dollars on Games Workshop 40k books, magazines, miniatures .. read them obsessively, only to eventually realize I had zero friends with any interest in it. Besides, I was much more into the backstory and fictional snippets throughout the books than the ponderous rules. The high cost of entry to 40k, with all the miniatures, was a real drag. I think I painted one two Space Marines, which was great fun, but then got bored with it.

Which was another great part of Space Hulk: everything you need in the box.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 8:46 AM on August 17

I was pretty much the same way, These Premises Are Alarmed, getting into the smaller games because I didn't have the patience to build bigger armies. I subscribed to White Dwarf for 2-3 years and read every damn word.
posted by Kattullus at 8:53 AM on August 17

Heh. For all the messing with armies I can count on the fingers of one hand the times we actually finished a 40k game.
posted by Artw at 8:55 AM on August 17

I found out some things about Games Workshop during my D&D research.

Particularly, they didn't used to be this monolithic "our stuff nothing else" company. They actually used to be nearly the only source for UK gamers on roleplaying stuff. They published the original D&D books there under license. Even when their own games rose im prominence, for a long while they kept their multisystem focus. They actualy once published a Warhammer 40K scenario in which it was 40K Orks vs. Paranoia Troubleshooters.

40K ORKS VS. PARANOIA TROUBLESHOOTERS! Repeated for sheer awesomeness. I like to think of them getting a beer/synthale together after the fight.

Nowadays? Yeah, GW is pretty much where TSR used to be, hard-line product whoring for dubious hobbyist benefit to increase profits. I have a friend who was heavily into 40K at the time, and I was stuck by the incredible expense of the game, hundreds of dollars to field an army, an army that could be usefully played with simple counters Cheapass-style, but White Dwarf seems to exist now as an attempt to make players view such an option as unthinkable.
posted by JHarris at 9:05 AM on August 17 [3 favorites]

Early editions of 40k even had lists of stuff they had been influenced by ( or to use the technical term ripped off) - I think that disapeared pretty quickly. Certainly Space Hulk had no note letting you know that big chunks of it were ripped off from Aliens - though it's so blatant you don't really need it.

Blatant AND awesome, that is.
posted by Artw at 9:22 AM on August 17 [2 favorites]

By the God-Emperor, yes!

The super cheesy and un-pc noble savage background story of the Deathwing expansion still stirs my teenage heart.

Luckily I still have my original copy in the parent's attic, since all the new genestealers seem to come attached to goofy scenic bases. The new tiles better be compatible...
posted by ecurtz at 9:23 AM on August 17

I've always like Space Hulk, but I hated the movie made by Space Ang Lee.
posted by shmegegge at 9:36 AM on August 17 [3 favorites]

Whenever I hear about Space Hulk, I'm always like, oh, I played that! But then I remember it was actually the (apparently less cool) Ultra Marines. No Genestealers.

Re: Games Workshop's transformation into an obnoxious company: They have been all about selling expensive-ass miniatures for a while, but I was in a Games Workshop shop a couple months ago, and man, they have ratcheted up the sales aggressiveness as well. The dude was all "I insist there's a Games Workshop Product Line that's right for you, that you'll love to drive off the lot today."
posted by ignignokt at 9:39 AM on August 17 [1 favorite]

Also, for fans of the board game you may want to check out the Doom board game, which apparently is similar to the style of Space Hulk.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:48 AM on August 17

Let the purifying flame cleanse this area.

The PC game was supremely underrated.
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:13 AM on August 17

Does thsi in some way relate to me getting my hands on Star Craft 2?
posted by kbanas at 9:48 AM on August 17 [+] [!]

No, and unlike SC2 you can play Space Hulk with other people in the same room as you, without an internet connection ;)

I used to love this game, and just about everything else GW did back when I was in high school and for a few years after (1993-1997ish). Most of my weekends spent at Cerebral Hobbies in Chapel Hill, drinking one free refill after another from the Subway upstairs. We played a ton of 40k when we had full days to kill, but games like this were great for a spare hour or so and had the added benefit of being self-contained: unlike all the other GW lines, you bought the game and you were done, there weren't a bunch of books and figures to spend every extra dollar on. Compare to 40k, which taught a generation of nerds to shoplift.
posted by Who_Am_I at 10:27 AM on August 17 [2 favorites]

(Also returning: Dark Sun)
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:54 AM on August 17 [2 favorites]

So I've been playing the PC game for several hours now... and I'm still on the training missions! On the last one I made one single slip and got the whole of my squad wiped out in one turn! Oh those glory days of frustratingly impossible computer games!
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:10 PM on August 17

Particularly, they didn't used to be this monolithic "our stuff nothing else" company.

Yeah back in the 80s they were basically a series of games hobbyist shops, and mail order for those of us outside a major city - as I was when I first got into D&D. Later on I would visit the old Nottingham shop for my RPG addiction. Before that I once made a visit, on a trip to London, to their then main shop in Hammersmith, which for me at the time seemed as significant as a pilgrimage to Mecca. Though the shop itself was disappointingly pokey, even if the bloke behind the counter seemed a more fitting deranged hippy type.

And White Dwarf had articles/scenarios for all RPGs plus the brilliant sf book review column by Dave Langford which was major influence on my teenage reading... introducing me to Cyberpunk and Gibson for a start.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:17 PM on August 17 [2 favorites]

robocop is bleeding: "(Also returning: Dark Sun)"

Alas, robocop is bleeding, it's going to be 4E Dark Sun, all movie-fied and lame-inated. Snark Sun.
posted by JHarris at 12:33 PM on August 17 [1 favorite]

I kind of like 4th Edition - less barrier to play means more chance of getting my fellow recovering nerds to play.

and i need to play so bbbaaaadddd
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:54 PM on August 17

The return of Dark Sun probably warrants an FPP.
posted by kid ichorous at 2:15 PM on August 17 [1 favorite]

Space Hulk is great, but I have to play the Genestealers -- I can't deal with the time limit.

A friend and I spent many, many happy hours playing Advanced Space Crusade -- with our own heavily modified rules, since the actual rules were rubbish.

And yes, I remember when GW were good. I still have many original little Traveller books that were printed by GW under license. It was a terrible wrench when White Dwarf turned from a general (and excellent) gaming magazine, into some awful in house catalogue.
posted by mr. strange at 2:26 PM on August 17 [1 favorite]

"I have a friend who was heavily into 40K at the time, and I was stuck by the incredible expense of the game, hundreds of dollars to field an army, an army that could be usefully played with simple counters Cheapass-style, but White Dwarf seems to exist now as an attempt to make players view such an option as unthinkable."

The great thing about 40K is that if you can find a like minded individual to play with you can play with counters. However I find it strangely more fun to play against a fully painted, well modelled army.

And while it is a little capital intensive to start; compared to practically any adult hobby the ongoing cost is minimal and even the start up costs are reasonable. It's a bargain compared to say golf, hockey, skiing or console gaming and doesn't even touch the expense of anything with an engine.
posted by Mitheral at 2:44 PM on August 17

w00t!

I had it as a youngster and have wanted to score another copy for a few years, but haven't wanted to drop $150 on it.
posted by Jezztek at 2:48 PM on August 17

[...]I have a friend who was heavily into 40K at the time, and I was stuck by the incredible expense of the game, hundreds of dollars to field an army, an army that could be usefully played with simple counters Cheapass-style, but White Dwarf seems to exist now as an attempt to make players view such an option as unthinkable.
posted by JHarris at 12:05 PM on August 17 [3 favorites +] [!]

It's actually much more insidious than just White Dwarf trying to make cardboard tokens seem gauche: it is (was?) specifically against the rules. At least when I played, you were not allowed to equip a Dreadnought with weapons that the model you were using didn't have. The same for heavy squads and Terminators. For the Chaos army, Pink Horrors split into two Blue Horrors when killed, but the rules said that if you didn't have the actual models you didn't get the Blue Horrors.

Now of course it was fine when you were playing with friends, nobody cared. But in any sort of tournament you started to have problems, cause hey you've got to play by the rules. And obviously the stores that usually ran the tournaments had an interest in getting people to buy more models. To their credit, my regular gaming store never enforced this sort of nonsense. And now they're out of business :(
posted by Who_Am_I at 3:14 PM on August 17 [1 favorite]

I can kind of sort of see an argument for that regarding line of sight, but it would very rarely come up.
posted by Artw at 3:50 PM on August 17

WYSIWYG war gaming. It's still the standard if you want to play in a tournament. Of course, I have a group of friends who play, and we are a little more lax.

Doesn't stop me from having six properly modeled Carnifexes...

...also my Tomb Kings...

...also my High Elves...

...and my wife's Lizardmen...
posted by WinnipegDragon at 3:54 PM on August 17

JHarris - the last word in the Edition Wars.

Also, this preview for the 4e Dungeon Master's Guide 2 has some very interesting stuff:

* Story Structure: The basic building blocks of narrative storytelling.
* Branching: Consider the narrative as a series of choices leading to multiple possible destinations.
* Cooperative Arcs: Consult with your players to build a campaign from the ground up.
* Your Cast of Characters: Help players work with you and each other to create dynamic characters.
* Cooperative World Building: The cooperative storytelling approach builds a story through joint improvisation. Players feel they have a stake in the story when they participate in building the plot.
* Roleplaying Hooks: Strong personality and plot hooks established at the start keep the characters involved throughout the life of the campaign.
* Vignettes: Short, directed scenes allow players to see events from a different point of view.
* Drama Rewards: Significant, dedicated roleplaying deserves XP rewards.
* What Your Players Want: Create surveys so you can adapt the game to your players’—and their characters’—requests.
* Companion Characters: Your story might call for an ally to join the PCs for a time, or maybe they need help in overcoming a challenge you want to use. These rules work independent of the storytelling style you adopt for your game.
* Making Things Level: Guidance for handling the situation when a character of higher or lower level joins the party.

The preview goes on a bit about vignettes, citing flashbacks, dream sequences, teasers and the like, with a couple of in-game examples.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:36 PM on August 17

robocop is bleeding: and i need to play so bbbaaaadddd

Come down to Providence, I'll hook you up... but just the hard stuff, mind... this is Lovecraft City, not Bewitchedville.

Though now that I think about it I don't know anyone who has Call of Cthulhu, just Arkham Horror... which, come to think of it, was based on Salem, I believe.
posted by Kattullus at 4:44 PM on August 17

I have the 20th Anniversary Special Edition of Call of Cthulhu. I live around the corner from Pickman Street. I walk past the Salem Jail every day. Salem is dizzown with the HP
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:34 PM on August 17

I'm sorry JHarris, but did you say " 40K ORKS VS. PARANOIA TROUBLESHOOTERS".

Oh my god, what utter awesomeness.

Someone was a bit stoned the day they thought of that one...
posted by wilful at 5:43 PM on August 17

Must come up with Lovecraft FPP for the 20th...
posted by Artw at 5:45 PM on August 17

Ooh, totally, Artw. That reminds me I need to get my grave rubbing reframed.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:01 PM on August 17

Dance Steps for Space Hulk.

Official Space Marine Recreator joke: "The Genestealers believed they'd know when we were coming. They thought four armed was forewarned."
posted by zamboni at 6:13 PM on August 17 [1 favorite]

robocop is bleeding: Ooh, totally, Artw. That reminds me I need to get my grave rubbing reframed.

Ahem, you still don't have the full set.
posted by Kattullus at 6:51 PM on August 17

Ahem, you still don't have the full set.

A Sixty-Year Rest Disturbed

Although it is nearby, Lovecraft's body does not actually lie beneath his donated headstone, a fact that was evidently unknown to the person or persons who, on the night of October 13, 1997, apparently tried to dig him up.

The hole was discovered on the morning of the 14th by a Swan Point security guard. It was about three feet deep and the dirt at the bottom appeared to be undisturbed. Did the diggers merely give up, or were they spooked? Other than the hole itself, the only evidence they left behind was a single footprint.

My Investigator will look closer at the footprint... is it human? I've got 60 in Anthropology.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:30 AM on August 18 [2 favorites]

Is this where I finally get to share the classic mashup image I've been archiving for roughly 60 years?
posted by NortonDC at 4:42 AM on August 18 [1 favorite]

robocop is bleeding -- oh, no, you did not. Lovecraft is Providence, first, last, and always. Salem can just find something else to call its own.

In other news, while Lovecraft seems to have based Arkham on Salem in later stories, I read an article some years that argued that the original site was inland -- vaguely set in an area now covered by the Quabbin Reservoir. Which, obviously, necessitated its move (although, with Lovecraft, I guess he could have kept writing stories there...).

Regardless, I'll second Kattullus's offer -- come for a visit; a little Arkham Horror will sort you out.

To get back to the post -- I have been struggling against the call of Warhammer/40K for a while now. I am deeply regretting getting rid of my miniatures during a move 10 years ago....
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:08 AM on August 18

Once the weather cools and the hassles of new home repair are past (so... close...) I'd be up for a Providence trip. Been wanting to play Arkham Horror for some time, but don't know enough people who carry the same interest.

Also something to think about post-chores - One of the biggest things I enjoy about Games Workshop games is the painting and converting. Problem is, most of my friends are, like Arkham Horror, not that interested. It's hard to keep the enthusiasm required to complete an army without some outside feedback and support. I can show a a converted Hybrid Marine to my wife and she'll just say that it "Looks good!", completely missing the insult the figure's blue armor represents to the fallen defenders of Macragge. I then launch into a tirade about the perversion of the gene-seed and she sits quietly, her eyes glazed over.

So maybe some sort of Mefi miniature modeling ring is in order? I need an excuse to complete these guys.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:40 AM on August 18 [1 favorite]

GenjiandProust: "Salem can just find something else to call its own."

I know, if only there were some kind of mystical/horror related thing that Salem could lay a pretty strong claim to...
posted by shmegegge at 7:41 AM on August 18 [1 favorite]

shmegegge: I know, if only there were some kind of mystical/horror related thing that Salem could lay a pretty strong claim to...

This bugs me, too! I keep thinking that there is something; it's on the tip of my tongue... and... no, sorry, it's gone. I've got nothing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:15 AM on August 18

this is gonna drive me crazy.
posted by shmegegge at 8:16 AM on August 18

robocop is bleeding: I then launch into a tirade about the perversion of the gene-seed and she sits quietly, her eyes glazed over.

It seems to me that this is the sort of conversation you should have had with your wife before marriage. I can't count the number of times couples have been torn apart by disagreements on the purity of the gene-seed (not to mention all the arguments about the nature of the divinity of the God_Emperor, but in that case, at least, you can call the Inquisition...).

Ha, if I succumb to the siren call of 40K, I might be interested in a modeling ring. I still have hopes for an intervention, though.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:20 AM on August 18

Okay, okay. Providence can have Lovecraft. Salem will just have to steal another southeastern New England historical figure.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:52 AM on August 18

It seems to me that this is the sort of conversation you should have had with your wife before marriage.

We ran out of time before the service. I was WAY behind on drawing the Cullen Family Tree my wife demanded as a nuptual condition.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:55 AM on August 18

I only found out that the drummer of the band I was with was really, really into W40k and Epic scale a week before he left Japan. I'd known him for about five years, and there's actually a good amount of Games Workshop stuff available. We sat, drinking our beers, thinking of the fun which could have been had. Of course, with the cost there probably wouldn't have been as much money for beer...

My Harlequin army (old, old rules) was UNSTOPPABLE!


(Largely because the rules for them were rediculous)
posted by Ghidorah at 12:38 PM on August 18

Mitheral: "The great thing about 40K is that if you can find a like minded individual to play with you can play with counters. However I find it strangely more fun to play against a fully painted, well modelled army.

I will not dispute this. But really, it's obnoxious to try to convince people that it must be played that way.

And while it is a little capital intensive to start; compared to practically any adult hobby the ongoing cost is minimal and even the start up costs are reasonable. It's a bargain compared to say golf, hockey, skiing or console gaming and doesn't even touch the expense of anything with an engine."

A sports game typically covers the whole day, skiing is a vacation to boot, and an automobile is something nearly everyone needs on a day-to-day basis. That is, all of these things have additional knock-on benefits in addition to the socialization and entertainment values.

And console gaming, I'd say, is not more expensive; a really good console game can provide as least as many hours of entertainment, especially since Games Workshop continually updates the game ("Dammit, I gotta buy a new Codex?!"), releases new armies and figures, and then there's White Dwarf magazine to keep up with other new rules. 40K is really quite a money sink. Meanwhile an Xbox 360 costs $200, and a Wii is $250 and more likely to be fun to the girlfriend to boot.
posted by JHarris at 2:38 PM on August 18

Sebmojo: "JHarris - the last word in the Edition Wars.

No, I disagree. You can shout "we're all playing the same game if you want," and that goes as far as convincing a non-enthusiast I suppose. But we are enthusiasts. And I still find something deeply offensive bout 4E, a feeling that has only intensified as I've read more about the original days of the game, when it took off like wildfire across the nation's yet-to-be-self-identified geek population.

* Story Structure: The basic building blocks of narrative storytelling.

According to Aristotle? Syd Fields? Really good stories are good partly because they don't obviously follow a narrative structure. 4E's attempts to make the adventure template an official part of the game, which goes against old-school narrative-light gaming, is a big part of what I dislike about it.

* Branching: Consider the narrative as a series of choices leading to multiple possible destinations.

In the old days there were "wilderness adventures," in which the "branching" could be any of many little places on the map. This is particularly annoying to me because I'm working on a computer game right now that takes the old-school "hexmap" approach, and as I do so I'm given to wonder why so few other computer games have offered it.

RPGs as cooperative storytelling are by no means bad, but there is a game that is recognizable as Dungeons & Dragons that has little of it. That is getting short shrift in 4E, and all those pseudo-cinematic narrative techniques in the list just push it further away. Since when did movies become the be-and-end-all of what all forms of entertainment should be? I hate and despise most movies.
posted by JHarris at 2:53 PM on August 18

wilful: "I'm sorry JHarris, but did you say " 40K ORKS VS. PARANOIA TROUBLESHOOTERS".

Oh my god, what utter awesomeness. "

Indeed. Wish I had a copy of it. Maybe i can find a link on the web somewhere.
posted by JHarris at 2:54 PM on August 18

I had that issue back in the day... long thrown away now, I'm afraid.
posted by Artw at 4:21 PM on August 18

Maybe i can find a link on the web somewhere.

The Computer would not break a pdf. The Computer is your friend.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 5:19 PM on August 18 [1 favorite]

"A sports game typically covers the whole day, skiing is a vacation to boot, and an automobile is something nearly everyone needs on a day-to-day basis. That is, all of these things have additional knock-on benefits in addition to the socialization and entertainment values."

These things are more similar than they'd seem. A close game of 40K (especially if it's say Imperial Guard vs. Orks rather than dual Nob bikers vs. Grey Knights) can last 3-4 hours easy, about the same as a round of golf and less than a game of hockey. Skiing around here is a day trip or even half day trip but I can see where that would be a bad example in a lot of places. And by engine I meant racing or even just riding around on snowmobiles. Heck my annual licence, helmet and restrain costs in rally or fuel for a day waterskiing is more than I spend annually on 40K.

"And console gaming, I'd say, is not more expensive; a really good console game can provide as least as many hours of entertainment, especially since Games Workshop continually updates the game ('Dammit, I gotta buy a new Codex?!'), releases new armies and figures, and then there's White Dwarf magazine to keep up with other new rules. 40K is really quite a money sink. Meanwhile an Xbox 360 costs $200, and a Wii is $250 and more likely to be fun to the girlfriend to boot."

GW doesn't update rules in White Dwarf anymore so you can strike that and new master rules come out at about the same rate as new generations of consoles (don't forget you need a monitor/TV for them as well, not everyone like me, has one) for about 20% of the cost. Codexes are about the cost of a single console game (and my army hasn't had a new book in nine years).

Anyways, it's not that 40K isn't expensive as it is even as miniture games go. An average army bought and painted retail is going to be several hundred dollars. Just as hobbies and activities go it's not out of line and there are many that are more expensive. And one of the things I like about it is that on going costs are minimal if you can aoid the collecting monkey. Build up a sane plan for 1500-1850 points in an army that has a recent codex that isn't Space Marines (IE: IG or what ever comes after Space Wolves) and for a few hundred dollars you are set for at least the next five years.
posted by Mitheral at 11:05 AM on August 19

So I bought Dawn of War II a while back because it was half price on Steam, and though it makes itself very difficult to like (tedious long waits for things to load, requests that the user press any key which then don’t do anything, and most WTF of all hideous integration with Wndows Live that means you can’t get to you save games without an internet connection) I’m kind of digging the 40kness of it. Also it has this special powers system that totally reminds me of the equipment and feats cards from Space Crusade.

Still wanting a 40K FOS that isn't about the fucking Tau.
posted by Artw at 1:52 PM on August 19 [1 favorite]

FOS = FPS
posted by Artw at 1:52 PM on August 19

So I bought it, and I haven't played a game yet, but it looks fantastic. The models are really good for plastic. Been teaching my little boy (aged three) the difference between a flamer and an autocannon.
posted by wilful at 8:02 PM on September 16