Salsa has always outsold ketchup.
August 23, 2009 5:36 AM Subscribe
For these students, Martha Graham, Pan American Airways, Michael Landon, Dr. Seuss, Miles Davis, The Dallas Times Herald, Gene Roddenberry, and Freddie Mercury have always been dead.
Each August since 1998, Beloit College has released the Beloit College Mindset List. It provides a look at the cultural touchstones that shape the lives of students entering college. It is the creation of Beloit’s Keefer Professor of the Humanities Tom McBride and Emeritus Public Affairs Director Ron Nief. It is used around the world as the school year begins, as a reminder of the rapidly changing frame of reference for this new generation.
The lists on the website go all the way back to the class of 2002 (that is, 1998).
Class of 2012 thread
Class of 2011 thread
Each August since 1998, Beloit College has released the Beloit College Mindset List. It provides a look at the cultural touchstones that shape the lives of students entering college. It is the creation of Beloit’s Keefer Professor of the Humanities Tom McBride and Emeritus Public Affairs Director Ron Nief. It is used around the world as the school year begins, as a reminder of the rapidly changing frame of reference for this new generation.
The lists on the website go all the way back to the class of 2002 (that is, 1998).
Class of 2012 thread
Class of 2011 thread
I wonder what inspired #19: "They have never understood the meaning of R.S.V.P."
I think most people (any age) ignore this even though they know what it means, but did it officially die? I still see it in use today.
posted by Houstonian at 5:55 AM on August 23, 2009
I think most people (any age) ignore this even though they know what it means, but did it officially die? I still see it in use today.
posted by Houstonian at 5:55 AM on August 23, 2009
19. They have never understood the meaning of R.S.V.P.
I'm not sure I understand this one. How does this relate to this particular age group? Nobody speaks French now? Anybody? Bueller? Bueller?
posted by belvidere at 5:59 AM on August 23, 2009
I'm not sure I understand this one. How does this relate to this particular age group? Nobody speaks French now? Anybody? Bueller? Bueller?
posted by belvidere at 5:59 AM on August 23, 2009
did it officially die? I still see it in use today.
Perhaps they mean that college students don't know the literal meaning: Respondez s'il vous plait?
posted by elfgirl at 6:01 AM on August 23, 2009
Perhaps they mean that college students don't know the literal meaning: Respondez s'il vous plait?
posted by elfgirl at 6:01 AM on August 23, 2009
76. What kind of a list has 75 entries? Needed to take a nap before they got 100?
posted by netbros at 6:07 AM on August 23, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by netbros at 6:07 AM on August 23, 2009 [3 favorites]
34. They have always been able to read books on an electronic screen.
44. There have always been flat screen televisions.
64. CDs have never been sold in cardboard packaging.
As a parent of an incoming freshman, I'll dispute these, but the rest seem pretty reasonable since many are simply date-reliant rather than "mindset" reliant.
posted by elfgirl at 6:07 AM on August 23, 2009
44. There have always been flat screen televisions.
64. CDs have never been sold in cardboard packaging.
As a parent of an incoming freshman, I'll dispute these, but the rest seem pretty reasonable since many are simply date-reliant rather than "mindset" reliant.
posted by elfgirl at 6:07 AM on August 23, 2009
51. Britney Spears has always been heard on classic rock stations.
Umm, no. She gained national attention in 1999, I'm sure she didn't start getting played on "classic rock stations" until at least 5 years later, if ever.
This list is ridiculously dumb. "Kids these days! Bah! Electronic books! Tattoos! Salsa! In my day, other things!"
posted by piratebowling at 6:08 AM on August 23, 2009 [22 favorites]
Umm, no. She gained national attention in 1999, I'm sure she didn't start getting played on "classic rock stations" until at least 5 years later, if ever.
This list is ridiculously dumb. "Kids these days! Bah! Electronic books! Tattoos! Salsa! In my day, other things!"
posted by piratebowling at 6:08 AM on August 23, 2009 [22 favorites]
"Natalie Cole has always been singing with her father".
Ugh, I just had a flashback to 1991-92 when I worked in a coffee shop where we were constantly tuned to 102.9 K-Lite FM. That goddamn "Unforgettable" father-daughter duet, beautiful song that it is, was played at least once every two hours for a year on that station. It got to the point where I knew when it was coming on and would find an excuse to go do inventory or do a garbage run so that I didn't have to hear it. The other most played songs that became like torture for me at the time were "Saved the Best for Last" by Vanessa Williams, and "In The Middle of the Night" by Billy Joel. In the long run the music had as much to do with me quitting as did the scheduling conflict with football.
posted by autodidact at 6:13 AM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
Ugh, I just had a flashback to 1991-92 when I worked in a coffee shop where we were constantly tuned to 102.9 K-Lite FM. That goddamn "Unforgettable" father-daughter duet, beautiful song that it is, was played at least once every two hours for a year on that station. It got to the point where I knew when it was coming on and would find an excuse to go do inventory or do a garbage run so that I didn't have to hear it. The other most played songs that became like torture for me at the time were "Saved the Best for Last" by Vanessa Williams, and "In The Middle of the Night" by Billy Joel. In the long run the music had as much to do with me quitting as did the scheduling conflict with football.
posted by autodidact at 6:13 AM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
Anybody? Bueller? Bueller?
Dang kids today prolly wouldn't understand this reference either.
posted by Zinger at 6:21 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
Dang kids today prolly wouldn't understand this reference either.
posted by Zinger at 6:21 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
The Simpsons has always been on the air.
And the best seasons were pre-Kindergarten.
posted by starman at 6:28 AM on August 23, 2009 [5 favorites]
And the best seasons were pre-Kindergarten.
posted by starman at 6:28 AM on August 23, 2009 [5 favorites]
77. They have always been on my lawn.
posted by milquetoast at 6:37 AM on August 23, 2009 [11 favorites]
posted by milquetoast at 6:37 AM on August 23, 2009 [11 favorites]
They have grown up in a politically correct universe in which multi-culturalism has been a given.
As long as you're not Arab. Or First Nations. Or gay. (does gay count as multi-cultured? Close enough)
The people criticizing this list on various 'get off my lawn' grounds are mistaken. From the main page:
"The Beloit College Mindset List was initially a witty way of saying "watch your references," and has turned into a globally reported and utilized guide to the intelligent but unprepared adolescent consciousness."
It's a reference to instructors. Nothing more, nothing less, and I find it interesting, even as a 24 year old, to see what's changed.
The Britney Spears one is a bit odd, but if you replace 'classic rock station' with something like 'credited as the inspiration for a new band', it fits. Saw an article in the Globe&Mail about some twerp with Evanescence as her influence. Yeesh.
posted by Lemurrhea at 6:38 AM on August 23, 2009
As long as you're not Arab. Or First Nations. Or gay. (does gay count as multi-cultured? Close enough)
The people criticizing this list on various 'get off my lawn' grounds are mistaken. From the main page:
"The Beloit College Mindset List was initially a witty way of saying "watch your references," and has turned into a globally reported and utilized guide to the intelligent but unprepared adolescent consciousness."
It's a reference to instructors. Nothing more, nothing less, and I find it interesting, even as a 24 year old, to see what's changed.
The Britney Spears one is a bit odd, but if you replace 'classic rock station' with something like 'credited as the inspiration for a new band', it fits. Saw an article in the Globe&Mail about some twerp with Evanescence as her influence. Yeesh.
posted by Lemurrhea at 6:38 AM on August 23, 2009
76. Beloit College has always been desperate for attention.
posted by Andy's Gross Wart at 6:39 AM on August 23, 2009 [13 favorites]
posted by Andy's Gross Wart at 6:39 AM on August 23, 2009 [13 favorites]
The amazing thing to me as I age is how much life resembles a long exposure photograph. The important stuff stays the same and all the fast changing stuff is just a distracting blur.
posted by srboisvert at 6:52 AM on August 23, 2009 [30 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 6:52 AM on August 23, 2009 [30 favorites]
Salsa has always outsold ketchup
Not where I live, the land where they put fries on everything.
posted by octothorpe at 6:55 AM on August 23, 2009
Not where I live, the land where they put fries on everything.
posted by octothorpe at 6:55 AM on August 23, 2009
"The Beloit College Mindset List was initially a witty way of saying "watch your references," and has turned into a globally reported and utilized guide to the intelligent but unprepared adolescent consciousness.". It's a reference to instructors. Nothing more, nothing less.
Well yeah, but the problem with doing this every year is that they are, fairly clearly, running out of relevant things to say. My favourite (from last year):
"The Royal New Zealand Navy has never been permitted a daily ration of rum."
At the time they published that, I was teaching in a New Zealand university, and I can assure you that this would not be a culturally significant touchstone for a single one of my students. How it could possibly be relevant to students in the US, I have no idea. Many of them are the same: what, people don't know about Freddie Mercury or Miles Davies or Dr Suess because they died before they were born? I guess that's why no-one under 30 listens to the Doors or the Beatles...
That said, some of them are more interesting: Margaret Thatcher was such an iconic figure for people of my generation that it's useful to be reminded that current students won't have the same emotional reaction to her name; the mainstreaming of rap and tattoos is worth remembering...but does it really matter who manages the Braves or if babies have SSNs? I suspect not. These lists would probably be more useful if they were a lot shorter, but carried over from year to year (e.g. the top 10 or so from each of the last 5 years would probably be worth thinking about, in terms of the current freshman class).
posted by Infinite Jest at 6:56 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
Well yeah, but the problem with doing this every year is that they are, fairly clearly, running out of relevant things to say. My favourite (from last year):
"The Royal New Zealand Navy has never been permitted a daily ration of rum."
At the time they published that, I was teaching in a New Zealand university, and I can assure you that this would not be a culturally significant touchstone for a single one of my students. How it could possibly be relevant to students in the US, I have no idea. Many of them are the same: what, people don't know about Freddie Mercury or Miles Davies or Dr Suess because they died before they were born? I guess that's why no-one under 30 listens to the Doors or the Beatles...
That said, some of them are more interesting: Margaret Thatcher was such an iconic figure for people of my generation that it's useful to be reminded that current students won't have the same emotional reaction to her name; the mainstreaming of rap and tattoos is worth remembering...but does it really matter who manages the Braves or if babies have SSNs? I suspect not. These lists would probably be more useful if they were a lot shorter, but carried over from year to year (e.g. the top 10 or so from each of the last 5 years would probably be worth thinking about, in terms of the current freshman class).
posted by Infinite Jest at 6:56 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
Some of it is just plain wrong. The gas jockeys in my town still offer to check under the hood.
Of course you have to pass through some kind of tectonic fold in the space time continuum to get here (I think it's about an hour north of Toronto) but still.
I dunno, these kids can mostly stay on my lawn.
posted by unSane at 6:57 AM on August 23, 2009
Of course you have to pass through some kind of tectonic fold in the space time continuum to get here (I think it's about an hour north of Toronto) but still.
I dunno, these kids can mostly stay on my lawn.
posted by unSane at 6:57 AM on August 23, 2009
I'm guessing that this observation has been made before, but I fall broadly into the range of the first year on the list (within 6 months of it, anyway), and it claims I don't remember all kinds of things that I do. Challenger? Reagan? Record players? TVs with 13 channels? Betamax?
It goes on and on. I'm 30 now and these are all nostalgia items, to be sure, but all vivid parts of my childhood.
My point? I think these lists are just plain wrong.
posted by bicyclefish at 6:59 AM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
It goes on and on. I'm 30 now and these are all nostalgia items, to be sure, but all vivid parts of my childhood.
My point? I think these lists are just plain wrong.
posted by bicyclefish at 6:59 AM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
And that was just plain weird!
posted by bicyclefish at 7:01 AM on August 23, 2009
posted by bicyclefish at 7:01 AM on August 23, 2009
I always have mixed feelings about these lists. About half the points are really startling insights into how different the world looks to people who are just a few years* younger than me. But the other half are an embarrassing mix of failed attempts at hipness, too clever to be understood, missing the point, and outright mistakes.
I mean: Except for the present incumbent, the President has never inhaled.
As opposed to Bush Sr.? Reagan? Carter? Ford? Nixon?!
I also share Lemurrhea's skepticism of the "politically correct universe" claim. I would have said we have a less multi-cultural society than we did ten years ago. But maybe I'm just pessimistic.
* Okay, 14 years. Jesus, when did that happen?
posted by moss at 7:14 AM on August 23, 2009
I mean: Except for the present incumbent, the President has never inhaled.
As opposed to Bush Sr.? Reagan? Carter? Ford? Nixon?!
I also share Lemurrhea's skepticism of the "politically correct universe" claim. I would have said we have a less multi-cultural society than we did ten years ago. But maybe I'm just pessimistic.
* Okay, 14 years. Jesus, when did that happen?
posted by moss at 7:14 AM on August 23, 2009
People don't RSVP any more; they just call you on their cell phone ten minutes before and say they're not coming.
Also, I look forward to 2016, when the Beloit College Mindset List includes "Beloit college has always come out with this stupid list".
posted by madcaptenor at 7:15 AM on August 23, 2009 [10 favorites]
Also, I look forward to 2016, when the Beloit College Mindset List includes "Beloit college has always come out with this stupid list".
posted by madcaptenor at 7:15 AM on August 23, 2009 [10 favorites]
unSane: "Some of it is just plain wrong. The gas jockeys in my town still offer to check under the hood."
Really? Wow, I haven't seen a gas station attendant (outside of New Jersey) in decades.
posted by octothorpe at 7:21 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
Really? Wow, I haven't seen a gas station attendant (outside of New Jersey) in decades.
posted by octothorpe at 7:21 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
This list is ridiculously dumb. "Kids these days! Bah! Electronic books! Tattoos! Salsa! In my day, other things!"
See, I think you're reading get-off-my-lawnery into it that wasn't intended.
A good chunk of these are unambiguously positive changes since my childhood. You can talk about birth control on TV! Computer literacy is widespread! Apartheid's over! Tattoos are socially acceptable! Feminism is mainstream! Smoking pot won't keep you from being president! MARGARET THATCHER WENT THE FUCK AWAY! This is awesome, awesome stuff, folks. Even the salsa is a sign once removed of a small positive change in my book — hispanic culture isn't ghettoized like it once was.
I have trouble believing Beloit's angle here is "Man, back in the good old days, we lived in a low-tech, repressive world full of legally institutionalized sexism and racism. Kids just don't appreciate that stuff anymore, dammit!"
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:23 AM on August 23, 2009 [3 favorites]
See, I think you're reading get-off-my-lawnery into it that wasn't intended.
A good chunk of these are unambiguously positive changes since my childhood. You can talk about birth control on TV! Computer literacy is widespread! Apartheid's over! Tattoos are socially acceptable! Feminism is mainstream! Smoking pot won't keep you from being president! MARGARET THATCHER WENT THE FUCK AWAY! This is awesome, awesome stuff, folks. Even the salsa is a sign once removed of a small positive change in my book — hispanic culture isn't ghettoized like it once was.
I have trouble believing Beloit's angle here is "Man, back in the good old days, we lived in a low-tech, repressive world full of legally institutionalized sexism and racism. Kids just don't appreciate that stuff anymore, dammit!"
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:23 AM on August 23, 2009 [3 favorites]
As an actual member of the class of 2013 (though not at Beloit), I'm not entirely certain how to feel about this list. I mean, obviously I'm not the target audience for it, but it seems composed of items that are either:
a) completely untrue (51. Britney Spears has always been heard on classic rock stations; 52. They have never been Saved by the Bell)
b) entirely pointless (45. They have always eaten Berry Berry Kix)
c) actually startling (20. American students have always lived anxiously with high-stakes educational testing)
Sadly, it seems the latter category is also the smallest.
posted by punchdrunkhistory at 7:27 AM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
a) completely untrue (51. Britney Spears has always been heard on classic rock stations; 52. They have never been Saved by the Bell)
b) entirely pointless (45. They have always eaten Berry Berry Kix)
c) actually startling (20. American students have always lived anxiously with high-stakes educational testing)
Sadly, it seems the latter category is also the smallest.
posted by punchdrunkhistory at 7:27 AM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
I checked my year, 2006 (born in 1984), and two of the first 3 are straight-up incorrect.
A Southerner has always been President of the United States.
South Africa's official policy of apartheid has not existed during their lifetime.
I remember Reagan, not in any detail but I did know he was president. In fact, I even remember Dukakis and the 1988 election. Given that he was president until I was 8, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that I would have some awareness of his existence. And then the second one claims not only that I don't remember something, (which I do, I remember learning about Nelson Mandela in elementary school) but that it didn't exist in my lifetime, when it officially ended in 1994 - when I was 10.
I don't get it.
posted by naoko at 7:33 AM on August 23, 2009
A Southerner has always been President of the United States.
South Africa's official policy of apartheid has not existed during their lifetime.
I remember Reagan, not in any detail but I did know he was president. In fact, I even remember Dukakis and the 1988 election. Given that he was president until I was 8, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that I would have some awareness of his existence. And then the second one claims not only that I don't remember something, (which I do, I remember learning about Nelson Mandela in elementary school) but that it didn't exist in my lifetime, when it officially ended in 1994 - when I was 10.
I don't get it.
posted by naoko at 7:33 AM on August 23, 2009
naoko: I checked my year, 2006 (born in 1984), and two of the first 3 are straight-up incorrect.
Same age, same response.
I actually thought this was a pretty good idea, from the FPP extract, but reading the actual list, it really isn't very well done.
posted by paisley henosis at 7:42 AM on August 23, 2009
Same age, same response.
I actually thought this was a pretty good idea, from the FPP extract, but reading the actual list, it really isn't very well done.
posted by paisley henosis at 7:42 AM on August 23, 2009
Though in fairness, Naoko, if you were born in 1984, Reagan was only president until you were 4.
Christ! Kids these days.
posted by bicyclefish at 7:44 AM on August 23, 2009
Christ! Kids these days.
posted by bicyclefish at 7:44 AM on August 23, 2009
Also:
State abbreviations in addresses have never had periods.
WTF? I'm 32, and I've always been taught that putting periods in state abbreviations is wrong. I remember learning this in typing class or something in like 7th grade.
posted by moss at 7:45 AM on August 23, 2009
State abbreviations in addresses have never had periods.
WTF? I'm 32, and I've always been taught that putting periods in state abbreviations is wrong. I remember learning this in typing class or something in like 7th grade.
posted by moss at 7:45 AM on August 23, 2009
I feel it's my yearly duty as a Beloit graduate to say that none of us actually liked this list. It is attention grabby, much in the same way football teams are meant to be attention grabby. It's just that, most people on the Beloit campus are nerds (myself included), so we use our words instead of trying to do things like play football (football never works out well for us).
Anyways, as a humble Beloit college alumnus, I formally apologize for the Mindset List. It is wrong, and I am sorry Tom McBride is so loud and awkward. Please accept these tickets to the Folk and Blues festival.
Right, well. See you guys next year.
posted by gc at 7:45 AM on August 23, 2009 [9 favorites]
Anyways, as a humble Beloit college alumnus, I formally apologize for the Mindset List. It is wrong, and I am sorry Tom McBride is so loud and awkward. Please accept these tickets to the Folk and Blues festival.
Right, well. See you guys next year.
posted by gc at 7:45 AM on August 23, 2009 [9 favorites]
This list seems to be out-of-touch with what people are out-of-touch with (where's it's not downright incorrect. Seriously, Britney Spears on classic rock stations?)
posted by Benjy at 7:50 AM on August 23, 2009
posted by Benjy at 7:50 AM on August 23, 2009
Clearly a lot of 18 year-olds weren't consulted on this list. Here are a few additions of my own:
96. Their first lesson on market economics probably involved trading cards based on one of many prominent Japanese franchises.
97. Many of their morning cartoons were interspersed with ones from said Japanese franchises. Some even continue watching foreign animation as they become teenagers and adults and western animation loses its appeal.
98. Piracy has always been an option to get your shit. Industry threats are held in less regard than warnings to not smoke marijuana.
99. Multiculturalism has never had a hyphen.
>9000. A good portion of this list probably wont apply to a good portion of the class of 201X as, thanks to immigration and the aforementioned multiculturalism, many of them probably grew up in areas less technologically and/or socially advanced than North America.
*class of 2012 here and still grumbling about the fact that I had to look for emulation software online in elementary school because my parents couldn't afford a gameboy...
posted by shoebox at 7:59 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
96. Their first lesson on market economics probably involved trading cards based on one of many prominent Japanese franchises.
97. Many of their morning cartoons were interspersed with ones from said Japanese franchises. Some even continue watching foreign animation as they become teenagers and adults and western animation loses its appeal.
98. Piracy has always been an option to get your shit. Industry threats are held in less regard than warnings to not smoke marijuana.
99. Multiculturalism has never had a hyphen.
>9000. A good portion of this list probably wont apply to a good portion of the class of 201X as, thanks to immigration and the aforementioned multiculturalism, many of them probably grew up in areas less technologically and/or socially advanced than North America.
*class of 2012 here and still grumbling about the fact that I had to look for emulation software online in elementary school because my parents couldn't afford a gameboy...
posted by shoebox at 7:59 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
shoebox: A good portion of this list probably wont apply to a good portion of the class of 201X as, thanks to immigration and the aforementioned multiculturalism, many of them probably grew up in areas less technologically and/or socially advanced than North America.
But are those the sort of people who end up at Beloit and schools like it? I'm actually asking; this isn't a rhetorical question. But my impression is that a lot of LACs attract a pretty homogeneous population.
posted by madcaptenor at 8:04 AM on August 23, 2009
But are those the sort of people who end up at Beloit and schools like it? I'm actually asking; this isn't a rhetorical question. But my impression is that a lot of LACs attract a pretty homogeneous population.
posted by madcaptenor at 8:04 AM on August 23, 2009
ATTENTION KIDS: THE EIGHTIES WERE NOT "COOL", THANK YOU.
posted by Artw at 8:09 AM on August 23, 2009 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:09 AM on August 23, 2009 [9 favorites]
I have trouble believing Beloit's angle here is "Man, back in the good old days, we lived in a low-tech, repressive world full of legally institutionalized sexism and racism. Kids just don't appreciate that stuff anymore, dammit!"
The original audience for these lists was professors, and the lists were passed around among us as a way of saying, "Hey, stupid, don't assume your students share your moss-covered frame of reference and worldview."
But because they're written by codgers with a moss-covered frame of reference, they include a lot of totally irrelevant and inaccurate fluff when they should be shorter and focus on things that vaguely matter.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:10 AM on August 23, 2009
The original audience for these lists was professors, and the lists were passed around among us as a way of saying, "Hey, stupid, don't assume your students share your moss-covered frame of reference and worldview."
But because they're written by codgers with a moss-covered frame of reference, they include a lot of totally irrelevant and inaccurate fluff when they should be shorter and focus on things that vaguely matter.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:10 AM on August 23, 2009
Class of '05. I'm looking at the list for the class of '02, the original one. (you know, before this list jumped the shark.) And I'm realizing that I'm older than their "typical" member of the class of '02, in some sense:
- I remember McDonald's coming in styrofoam containers
- I have roller-skated on traditional skates but not on inline ones.
- I remember blue M&Ms being introduced. I still think they're a little weird. (This might just mean that I ate a lot of M&Ms growing up.)
- I played Pac Man! In college! Seriously, we had a Pac Man machine by the mailboxes. I was sad when it went away.
- We got cable in 1988, when I was four. I remember this. We moved from the city to the suburbs and my parents didn't plan on getting it, except you just couldn't pick up a decent signal with an antenna where we were. Now I don't have cable, but that's because I'm cheap.
- Mork was from Ork. I know that. I still think it's weird that he's the same person as the Genie from Aladdin, though. I also know what polio, hostages in Iran, Pong, 8-tracks, etc. are Maybe this just means I read too much.
- I remember TVs without remotes. My grandmother had one well into the nineties.
Now, I don't think that my childhood was especially backward in any way, so I have to assume this list is full of crap.
posted by madcaptenor at 8:13 AM on August 23, 2009
- I remember McDonald's coming in styrofoam containers
- I have roller-skated on traditional skates but not on inline ones.
- I remember blue M&Ms being introduced. I still think they're a little weird. (This might just mean that I ate a lot of M&Ms growing up.)
- I played Pac Man! In college! Seriously, we had a Pac Man machine by the mailboxes. I was sad when it went away.
- We got cable in 1988, when I was four. I remember this. We moved from the city to the suburbs and my parents didn't plan on getting it, except you just couldn't pick up a decent signal with an antenna where we were. Now I don't have cable, but that's because I'm cheap.
- Mork was from Ork. I know that. I still think it's weird that he's the same person as the Genie from Aladdin, though. I also know what polio, hostages in Iran, Pong, 8-tracks, etc. are Maybe this just means I read too much.
- I remember TVs without remotes. My grandmother had one well into the nineties.
Now, I don't think that my childhood was especially backward in any way, so I have to assume this list is full of crap.
posted by madcaptenor at 8:13 AM on August 23, 2009
Ah the Beloit College Mindset List. Good for a thorough mocking every year.
posted by never used baby shoes at 8:19 AM on August 23, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by never used baby shoes at 8:19 AM on August 23, 2009 [3 favorites]
The main problem with the list, at least from my perspective as a soon-to-be high-school teacher, is that it can't even come close to the number of relevant "pop-culture references" my students won't get, if I make them. I am constantly referencing movies, books, tv shows, songs, newsworthy events, etc., from my lifetime just in my regular conversations, and I know I do it when I deliver lectures or lessons. It's second nature at this point, and I'm certain 90% of my references are meaningless to 18-year-olds--and that means my ability to hold their attention is weakened.
I think many of us here forget that not everybody is a reader, or that culturally aware, or, er, nerdy (admit it) about various topics. I mean, I was class of 1991, and was upset my first week that *none of my fellow freshmen knew who Noel Coward was*. I thought they were all idiots--how did they get into a good school?!
It's such an unbelievably different world, especially the past two decades, as technology has changed pop culture at a speed that would have been impossible in the '70s.
(shorter me: I don't wanna have to watch Hannah Montana and Gossip Girl in order to make references my students will get!)
posted by tzikeh at 8:28 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think many of us here forget that not everybody is a reader, or that culturally aware, or, er, nerdy (admit it) about various topics. I mean, I was class of 1991, and was upset my first week that *none of my fellow freshmen knew who Noel Coward was*. I thought they were all idiots--how did they get into a good school?!
It's such an unbelievably different world, especially the past two decades, as technology has changed pop culture at a speed that would have been impossible in the '70s.
(shorter me: I don't wanna have to watch Hannah Montana and Gossip Girl in order to make references my students will get!)
posted by tzikeh at 8:28 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
I have trouble believing Beloit's angle here is "Man, back in the good old days, we lived in a low-tech, repressive world full of legally institutionalized sexism and racism. Kids just don't appreciate that stuff anymore, dammit!"
I wasn't saying that was the message. It's get-off-my-lawn-ish in the sense of "Kids these days don't know hoe easy they have it! They don't remember when [x] was harder because of [y]!" I mean, I suppose I get the point, but some of the things they write just are wrong or make no sense or are too damn cryptic to be read as much else than someone sounding grumpy and complaining about the next generation in a vague was (see: that RSVP one, wtf?).
But whatever, I'm from the class of 2007 and therefor I only know a world where Datsuns have never been made (even though my dad owned one) and computers have always fit in my backpack (even thought I only remember huge clunkers from my childhood). You don't have to believe me when I say the list is inaccurate and silly.
posted by piratebowling at 8:33 AM on August 23, 2009
I wasn't saying that was the message. It's get-off-my-lawn-ish in the sense of "Kids these days don't know hoe easy they have it! They don't remember when [x] was harder because of [y]!" I mean, I suppose I get the point, but some of the things they write just are wrong or make no sense or are too damn cryptic to be read as much else than someone sounding grumpy and complaining about the next generation in a vague was (see: that RSVP one, wtf?).
But whatever, I'm from the class of 2007 and therefor I only know a world where Datsuns have never been made (even though my dad owned one) and computers have always fit in my backpack (even thought I only remember huge clunkers from my childhood). You don't have to believe me when I say the list is inaccurate and silly.
posted by piratebowling at 8:33 AM on August 23, 2009
only president until you were four
Ugh, President fail - chalk that one up to posting while hung over? To be fair, George H.W. is a pretty forgettable dude. And, I might point out, also not a Southerner, so Beloit is still wrong.
posted by naoko at 8:33 AM on August 23, 2009
Ugh, President fail - chalk that one up to posting while hung over? To be fair, George H.W. is a pretty forgettable dude. And, I might point out, also not a Southerner, so Beloit is still wrong.
posted by naoko at 8:33 AM on August 23, 2009
The original idea behind this is a good one, I think. I remember some years ago when I was teaching writing to college freshmen, and we did an exercise in the library where they were asked to research some of the things that were going on in the world the year they were born. They all came back with articles about the Iranian hostage crisis. I was surprised; somehow it hadn't occurred to me that enough time had passed that the students I was teaching had been born when I was in high school. It did make me think more carefully about what I mentioned in class, what I expected them to be conversant with.
Still, the list is kind of silly for the most part.
posted by not that girl at 8:40 AM on August 23, 2009
Still, the list is kind of silly for the most part.
posted by not that girl at 8:40 AM on August 23, 2009
CDs have never been sold in cardboard packaging.
I think they mean CDs have never been sold in cardboard packaging the same size as records. Many CDs come in cardboard packaging.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 8:47 AM on August 23, 2009
I think they mean CDs have never been sold in cardboard packaging the same size as records. Many CDs come in cardboard packaging.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 8:47 AM on August 23, 2009
Some day, only old folks will hang out on the internet.
posted by Xoebe at 8:51 AM on August 23, 2009
posted by Xoebe at 8:51 AM on August 23, 2009
Oh goody, the annual Beloit pile on!
It's the awkward "x has always never existed," "y has always been..." phrasing that irritates me. It's one thing to say that kids have grown up with y as a part of their daily lives, and it's another to imply some sort of ahistorical blindness such that college students are completely unfamiliar with the concept of apartheid and its role in the world.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:17 AM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
It's the awkward "x has always never existed," "y has always been..." phrasing that irritates me. It's one thing to say that kids have grown up with y as a part of their daily lives, and it's another to imply some sort of ahistorical blindness such that college students are completely unfamiliar with the concept of apartheid and its role in the world.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:17 AM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
This list seems to be out-of-touch with what people are out-of-touch with
You don't want your professors to be too in touch and with it, that's creepy and dangerous.
This did make me think about being in 5th grade, and having some 3rd grader brought around into every classroom to do her precocious imitation of Charley Chaplain. The teachers all thought it was great, and we had no idea what was supposed to be so funny or what the Hitler mustache was all about.
posted by StickyCarpet at 9:26 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
You don't want your professors to be too in touch and with it, that's creepy and dangerous.
This did make me think about being in 5th grade, and having some 3rd grader brought around into every classroom to do her precocious imitation of Charley Chaplain. The teachers all thought it was great, and we had no idea what was supposed to be so funny or what the Hitler mustache was all about.
posted by StickyCarpet at 9:26 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
What, none of these kids have ever shopped at Costco? ALL the CDs there come in longboxes of some flavor or another. Some of them even printed up, just like in the old days.
posted by hippybear at 9:27 AM on August 23, 2009
posted by hippybear at 9:27 AM on August 23, 2009
Time passes, things change, most of them don't matter. Your favorite (fill in the blank) sucks.
posted by doctor_negative at 9:33 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by doctor_negative at 9:33 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
Ah, Beloit College and its annual publicity stunt. Soon it'll be time for the list of words banned from English--what's that, St. Cloud State or some place? And the Bulwer-Lytton thing--Cal State-Long Beach, maybe?
posted by box at 9:50 AM on August 23, 2009
posted by box at 9:50 AM on August 23, 2009
Man, I just feel like I don't know how to talk to these kids about Dan Rostenkowski at all.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:55 AM on August 23, 2009
posted by Navelgazer at 9:55 AM on August 23, 2009
Are you sitting down? Martha Graham used to be alive. Also -- the UN Subcommittee on Pan-Agrarian Herbicidal Reform is now required to meet thrice monthly.
Mindblowing, isn't it, Wisconsin Youth?
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 10:43 AM on August 23, 2009 [3 favorites]
Mindblowing, isn't it, Wisconsin Youth?
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 10:43 AM on August 23, 2009 [3 favorites]
So most stuff isn't really that different. That's what I got out of this. Uh...did I do it wrong?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:44 AM on August 23, 2009
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:44 AM on August 23, 2009
"Salsa has always outsold ketchup"
"Not where I live, the land where they put fries on everything."
Pittsburgh?
I got a salad topped with fries there
posted by sloe at 10:54 AM on August 23, 2009
"Not where I live, the land where they put fries on everything."
Pittsburgh?
I got a salad topped with fries there
posted by sloe at 10:54 AM on August 23, 2009
I'm going to echo madcaptenor, having started college the year the first list was released. So many of the things on that list are just incorrect. Maybe the students at Beloit happen to be particularly unaware as children.
posted by grouse at 11:04 AM on August 23, 2009
posted by grouse at 11:04 AM on August 23, 2009
grouse: Maybe the students at Beloit happen to be particularly unaware as children.
As young adults too. They ended up at Beloit, after all.
/MUN grad. Glass houses, etc.
posted by hangashore at 11:19 AM on August 23, 2009
As young adults too. They ended up at Beloit, after all.
/MUN grad. Glass houses, etc.
posted by hangashore at 11:19 AM on August 23, 2009
ding, ding, ding! sloe is correct.
posted by piratebowling at 11:22 AM on August 23, 2009
posted by piratebowling at 11:22 AM on August 23, 2009
in my day, pluto was a planet.
posted by fuzzypantalones at 11:27 AM on August 23, 2009
posted by fuzzypantalones at 11:27 AM on August 23, 2009
I got a salad topped with fries there
For the last two days I've been craving a Primanti Brothers sandwich like crazy.
posted by bunnytricks at 11:27 AM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
For the last two days I've been craving a Primanti Brothers sandwich like crazy.
posted by bunnytricks at 11:27 AM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
Wow, I just read the 2009 list (my graduating class), and probably at least half of it is utter nonsense.
posted by !Jim at 11:29 AM on August 23, 2009
It's the awkward "x has always never existed," "y has always been..." phrasing that irritates me. It's one thing to say that kids have grown up with y as a part of their daily lives, and it's another to imply some sort of ahistorical blindness such that college students are completely unfamiliar with the concept of apartheid and its role in the world.This.
posted by !Jim at 11:29 AM on August 23, 2009
sloe: " Pittsburgh?
I got a salad topped with fries there"
You mean they don't put strip steak, french fries and melted cheese on top of salads in other cities? You need something to help you force down all that green stuff.
posted by octothorpe at 11:50 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
I got a salad topped with fries there"
You mean they don't put strip steak, french fries and melted cheese on top of salads in other cities? You need something to help you force down all that green stuff.
posted by octothorpe at 11:50 AM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
And the moon is someplace we went to decades and decades ago (maybe) before we just decided interplanetary travel was just "so 1960's".
posted by Rafaelloello at 11:53 AM on August 23, 2009
posted by Rafaelloello at 11:53 AM on August 23, 2009
They have never been able to find the "return" key.
Computers have always fit in their backpacks.
Adam and PC Junior computers had vanished from the market before this generation went online.
I had to go back at look at my class year (2007), and these especially are just silly. The first computer I used (around 3 or 4) was a PC Junior. I used to play a lot of Mixed Up Mother Goose on it, and later, King's Quest. It also had a blue box we could plug into it somehow (don't remember the specifics) that would say whatever text we typed into the computer. My brother and I had a lot of fun with this computer!
It is true, though, that I never went online with it.
posted by amarie at 11:59 AM on August 23, 2009
Computers have always fit in their backpacks.
Adam and PC Junior computers had vanished from the market before this generation went online.
I had to go back at look at my class year (2007), and these especially are just silly. The first computer I used (around 3 or 4) was a PC Junior. I used to play a lot of Mixed Up Mother Goose on it, and later, King's Quest. It also had a blue box we could plug into it somehow (don't remember the specifics) that would say whatever text we typed into the computer. My brother and I had a lot of fun with this computer!
It is true, though, that I never went online with it.
posted by amarie at 11:59 AM on August 23, 2009
...3rd grader brought around into every classroom to do her precocious imitation of Charley Chaplain.
Was he the priest serving with the German army?
posted by Lemurrhea at 12:13 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
Was he the priest serving with the German army?
posted by Lemurrhea at 12:13 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
I was born in 1980 and my sister in 1986. I realized a while back that we don't remember feeling shocked when (SPOILERS!) Darth Vader tells Luke he's his father. We just know Vader is Luke's father, and as far as we can tell we've always known, since we saw the movies at too earlier an age to really understand them or remember the details. Or maybe we didn't - maybe we just heard it from other people.
posted by heathkit at 12:30 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by heathkit at 12:30 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think it's important to know what you know that was big thing to you because you lived it as opposed to someone not knowing something in the way you know it and so being conscious of the fact that what you know isn't necessarily what everyone knows and adjust yourself accordingly especially if you're trying to inform or instruct someone, because you can't inform or instruct someone unless you know what they don't know and you know that you know what they don't know.
Phew.
Anyhow, this list: Total crap.
Dumb kids don't know anything, news at 11. (Do kids even know what that expression even means anymore what with the mult-platform ubiquitiousness of the interwebs).
One last thing: Thoughtful and smart kids have always known much more than adults have ever given them credit of knowing or understanding.
posted by Skygazer at 12:40 PM on August 23, 2009
Phew.
Anyhow, this list: Total crap.
Dumb kids don't know anything, news at 11. (Do kids even know what that expression even means anymore what with the mult-platform ubiquitiousness of the interwebs).
One last thing: Thoughtful and smart kids have always known much more than adults have ever given them credit of knowing or understanding.
posted by Skygazer at 12:40 PM on August 23, 2009
I look forward to the day when such a list contains:
- Men and women have always been treated equally
- Racism has never been an issue
- World peace has always been the status quo
- Teleportation has always been a form of transportation
posted by Lush at 12:48 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
- Men and women have always been treated equally
- Racism has never been an issue
- World peace has always been the status quo
- Teleportation has always been a form of transportation
posted by Lush at 12:48 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
The amazing thing to me as I age is how much life resembles a long exposure photograph. The important stuff stays the same and all the fast changing stuff is just a distracting blur.
Nicely said srboisvert.
I like knowing this information. Getting a perspective on these cultural changes, keeping it clearly in my mind, remembering there are people who do not understand my timeframe reference and becoming more awake to their timeframe.
Although I am an old fart 55 year old now, my mind feels young, curious, excited about the world, every day, very much one of the many reasons why I love coming to MetaFilter, to learn new ideas, surf the zeitgeist.
The important things do stay the same basically in their feeling reality: truth telling, integrity, authenticity, enjoying worthwhile communication, good friendship. That caliber of stuff. But the way these experiences take place have lots of new vehicles, new music, new art, new technology, new vocabulary, new styles, new permissions. To a young person- 11 to 30ish- these new ways seem very important, as part of the value of the truth, the authenticity or significance of the experience. But, as I aged I found the truth was as valuable, significant, meaningful on a Bakelite clunker telephone, or in paper books as it is on the web, on an iPod or a whisper thin cellphone.
Then there are social changes, which come along the same time the changes in technology take place. And in some ways they influence each other, the way truth is known, how widely it is known, how easily it is known, how swiftly it is known, how it is challenged, debated and becomes mainstream knowledge. To some degree the medium is the message. In some ways it is not.
posted by nickyskye at 12:55 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
Nicely said srboisvert.
I like knowing this information. Getting a perspective on these cultural changes, keeping it clearly in my mind, remembering there are people who do not understand my timeframe reference and becoming more awake to their timeframe.
Although I am an old fart 55 year old now, my mind feels young, curious, excited about the world, every day, very much one of the many reasons why I love coming to MetaFilter, to learn new ideas, surf the zeitgeist.
The important things do stay the same basically in their feeling reality: truth telling, integrity, authenticity, enjoying worthwhile communication, good friendship. That caliber of stuff. But the way these experiences take place have lots of new vehicles, new music, new art, new technology, new vocabulary, new styles, new permissions. To a young person- 11 to 30ish- these new ways seem very important, as part of the value of the truth, the authenticity or significance of the experience. But, as I aged I found the truth was as valuable, significant, meaningful on a Bakelite clunker telephone, or in paper books as it is on the web, on an iPod or a whisper thin cellphone.
Then there are social changes, which come along the same time the changes in technology take place. And in some ways they influence each other, the way truth is known, how widely it is known, how easily it is known, how swiftly it is known, how it is challenged, debated and becomes mainstream knowledge. To some degree the medium is the message. In some ways it is not.
posted by nickyskye at 12:55 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
Oh, Beloit. I will always love you, but, like gc, I feel that I must defend you.
To be fair, as has been suggested above, the intent has never been a giant 'get off my lawn' to the incoming class. In principle it is supposed to set a context and serve, mostly, as a yearly reminder to try and consider where this freshman class is coming from in order to be more aware of potential differences in worldview and receptive to their ideas so that the student-professor conversation is more effective and less frustrating. In theory. But the fact that the lists are so long and only occasionally touch on things that might be really relevant (personally, I think Britney Spears is less important than, say, the Berlin Wall) kind of undermine the point.
But I think the thought is there. And having gone to Beloit, whether or not the list itself works, I think in large part the professors take the underlying intent to heart quite well.
But yeah. I've always been annoyed and felt vaguely wronged by the mindset list given how inaccurate it is.
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 1:03 PM on August 23, 2009
To be fair, as has been suggested above, the intent has never been a giant 'get off my lawn' to the incoming class. In principle it is supposed to set a context and serve, mostly, as a yearly reminder to try and consider where this freshman class is coming from in order to be more aware of potential differences in worldview and receptive to their ideas so that the student-professor conversation is more effective and less frustrating. In theory. But the fact that the lists are so long and only occasionally touch on things that might be really relevant (personally, I think Britney Spears is less important than, say, the Berlin Wall) kind of undermine the point.
But I think the thought is there. And having gone to Beloit, whether or not the list itself works, I think in large part the professors take the underlying intent to heart quite well.
But yeah. I've always been annoyed and felt vaguely wronged by the mindset list given how inaccurate it is.
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 1:03 PM on August 23, 2009
NickySkye: Then there are social changes, which come along the same time the changes in technology take place. And in some ways they influence each other, the way truth is known, how widely it is known, how easily it is known, how swiftly it is known, how it is challenged, debated and becomes mainstream knowledge. To some degree the medium is the message. In some ways it is not.
I agree Nicky, and it is interesting to think like that, but I don't know if the "truth" or "integrity" is something so mercurial that it requires refashioning a list (of all simplistic things), every year. Beyond item #1 that list was filler. But maybe, as I think you're saying, the way that truth is transposed onto new mediums and takes on new cultural significance might be something to gauge or keep an eye on, but there are immutable truths that, every kid eventually deals with, with whatever tools he or she can and hopefully they have the internal tools to do it beyond the strictly materialistic advances of technology or every flash of pop culture. Does it really matter if certain people are no longer around if their works stays with us. Does the fact they Miles Davis was dead before these kids were born matter to their deriving something from his music, or listening to it on an ipod? Probably not, although to show my own prejudices here I would hope they had a chance to hear his music on vinyl.
posted by Skygazer at 1:22 PM on August 23, 2009
I agree Nicky, and it is interesting to think like that, but I don't know if the "truth" or "integrity" is something so mercurial that it requires refashioning a list (of all simplistic things), every year. Beyond item #1 that list was filler. But maybe, as I think you're saying, the way that truth is transposed onto new mediums and takes on new cultural significance might be something to gauge or keep an eye on, but there are immutable truths that, every kid eventually deals with, with whatever tools he or she can and hopefully they have the internal tools to do it beyond the strictly materialistic advances of technology or every flash of pop culture. Does it really matter if certain people are no longer around if their works stays with us. Does the fact they Miles Davis was dead before these kids were born matter to their deriving something from his music, or listening to it on an ipod? Probably not, although to show my own prejudices here I would hope they had a chance to hear his music on vinyl.
posted by Skygazer at 1:22 PM on August 23, 2009
This did make me think about being in 5th grade, and having some 3rd grader brought around into every classroom to do her precocious imitation of Charley Chaplain. The teachers all thought it was great, and we had no idea what was supposed to be so funny or what the Hitler mustache was all about.
Charlie Chaplin.
I think that's less a marker of the era than kids don't have much cultural depth. I'm guessing your teachers weren't young adults in the 1920s. A lot of people will come to know who Charlie Chaplin is eventually just because he is so gigantic in the world of film and is constantly being referenced.
posted by krinklyfig at 1:33 PM on August 23, 2009
Charlie Chaplin.
I think that's less a marker of the era than kids don't have much cultural depth. I'm guessing your teachers weren't young adults in the 1920s. A lot of people will come to know who Charlie Chaplin is eventually just because he is so gigantic in the world of film and is constantly being referenced.
posted by krinklyfig at 1:33 PM on August 23, 2009
The main problem with the list, at least from my perspective as a soon-to-be high-school teacher, is that it can't even come close to the number of relevant "pop-culture references" my students won't get, if I make them. I am constantly referencing movies, books, tv shows, songs, newsworthy events, etc., from my lifetime just in my regular conversations, and I know I do it when I deliver lectures or lessons. It's second nature at this point, and I'm certain 90% of my references are meaningless to 18-year-olds--and that means my ability to hold their attention is weakened.
I dunno, part of how I learned was from teachers and older relatives making references that I didn't get -- which encouraged me to find out what they meant or think about it. Same goes for vocabulary: when a person or a book used a word that was over your head, that was good because you'd go look it up instead of being all pissed that every syllable wasn't exactly on your level of comprehension.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:17 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
I dunno, part of how I learned was from teachers and older relatives making references that I didn't get -- which encouraged me to find out what they meant or think about it. Same goes for vocabulary: when a person or a book used a word that was over your head, that was good because you'd go look it up instead of being all pissed that every syllable wasn't exactly on your level of comprehension.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:17 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
13. The KGB has never officially existed.
Hasn't this been true for every graduating class in the last 90 years?
posted by wabbittwax at 3:56 PM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
Hasn't this been true for every graduating class in the last 90 years?
posted by wabbittwax at 3:56 PM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
These poor kids have only seen Italy win one World Cup.
posted by Zambrano at 5:50 PM on August 23, 2009
posted by Zambrano at 5:50 PM on August 23, 2009
but I don't know if the "truth" or "integrity" is something so mercurial that it requires refashioning a list (of all simplistic things), every year.
I didn't mean that truth is "refashioned" each year. I mean the truth being known widely and swiftly, like the inside information about Sarah Palin, known widely on the web in a matter of hours, minutes even, the truth coming out like wildfire, whereas in pre-internet days it might take months or years for the same sort of deceit to be known, to see the charlatanism, behind various politicians' or CEOs' cunning camouflage for example.
Truths being known widely and so quickly, being experienced globally via the internet could and is changing history, shaping events in ways that did not happen so fast in the old newspaper or tv only days.
With the cellphone, not just for calling but videotaping events, whether a citizen being tasered, a tsunami, an act of terrorism and transmitting them to newspapers, to journalists, blogs and websites; the advent of Twitter during the Mumbai attacks or other global crises, in which the general population documents events, as they happen; this is a new kind of truth speaking, very public, shaped by technological development. This truth can have different kind of social impacts than previous truth telling. It empowers the general population in unexpected ways.
there are immutable truths that, every kid eventually deals with, with whatever tools he or she can and hopefully they have the internal tools to do it beyond the strictly materialistic advances of technology or every flash of pop culture
I'm not a believer in "immutable truths", as I think circumstances may change over time and truths change accordingly. What was true once may not be true now. I am in favor of having a workable morality, a sense of ethics that makes sense for the time, is appropriate.
Miles Davis was a pioneer, socially, musically. He made way. So now his music has a different sort of cultural impact than it did in the 1960's. It makes sense to me a younger generation might not experience his music the same way because they wouldn't know what it felt like to have lived in a time when black Americans had to sit at the back of a bus and there was segregation. I experience Jimi Hendrix' music as triumphant, politically fierce, dangerously mischievous. I understand kids these days would likely not get that. Times have changed. What was wild then is now mainstream.
I don't experience the rest of the list as filler but as perspective. Not deep perspective but zeitgeist perspective.
posted by nickyskye at 5:50 PM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
I didn't mean that truth is "refashioned" each year. I mean the truth being known widely and swiftly, like the inside information about Sarah Palin, known widely on the web in a matter of hours, minutes even, the truth coming out like wildfire, whereas in pre-internet days it might take months or years for the same sort of deceit to be known, to see the charlatanism, behind various politicians' or CEOs' cunning camouflage for example.
Truths being known widely and so quickly, being experienced globally via the internet could and is changing history, shaping events in ways that did not happen so fast in the old newspaper or tv only days.
With the cellphone, not just for calling but videotaping events, whether a citizen being tasered, a tsunami, an act of terrorism and transmitting them to newspapers, to journalists, blogs and websites; the advent of Twitter during the Mumbai attacks or other global crises, in which the general population documents events, as they happen; this is a new kind of truth speaking, very public, shaped by technological development. This truth can have different kind of social impacts than previous truth telling. It empowers the general population in unexpected ways.
there are immutable truths that, every kid eventually deals with, with whatever tools he or she can and hopefully they have the internal tools to do it beyond the strictly materialistic advances of technology or every flash of pop culture
I'm not a believer in "immutable truths", as I think circumstances may change over time and truths change accordingly. What was true once may not be true now. I am in favor of having a workable morality, a sense of ethics that makes sense for the time, is appropriate.
Miles Davis was a pioneer, socially, musically. He made way. So now his music has a different sort of cultural impact than it did in the 1960's. It makes sense to me a younger generation might not experience his music the same way because they wouldn't know what it felt like to have lived in a time when black Americans had to sit at the back of a bus and there was segregation. I experience Jimi Hendrix' music as triumphant, politically fierce, dangerously mischievous. I understand kids these days would likely not get that. Times have changed. What was wild then is now mainstream.
I don't experience the rest of the list as filler but as perspective. Not deep perspective but zeitgeist perspective.
posted by nickyskye at 5:50 PM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
76. We have always been at war with Eastasia.
posted by HumuloneRanger at 5:55 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by HumuloneRanger at 5:55 PM on August 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
Most of the list was rather bleh, but the following is true for this 27 year old:
posted by the cydonian at 7:05 PM on August 23, 2009
The American health care system has always been in critical condition.Errr, I mean, I didn't know that economic indicators other than GDP were popular (I mean, I know they exist, but rightly or wrongly, not considered that much)
Desperate smokers have always been able to turn to Nicoderm skin patches.
The nation’s key economic indicator has always been the Gross Domestic Product (GDP)
posted by the cydonian at 7:05 PM on August 23, 2009
This is a good thread because I can link to one of my favorite comments of all time. "Sounds like some of that THUGGERY LIFE I've heard about!"
posted by granted at 8:27 PM on August 23, 2009
posted by granted at 8:27 PM on August 23, 2009
2016: For these students, Beloit College has always released the Beloit College Mindset List.
posted by gyusan at 9:13 PM on August 23, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by gyusan at 9:13 PM on August 23, 2009 [3 favorites]
I think of human experience as an Olympic sized swimming pool, with the typical slanting bottom. At the shallow end of the pool, there are all kinds of "No Diving" signs, and that's where they hold the scheduled, paid kiddie swim classes. They don't put filter drains in that end of the pool, for good reason. Every one under a certain age wears life jackets or floaties, has a buddy, counts off every 5 minutes, and relies on people with long legs for the final measure of safety. All you need to be safe in that end of the pool are long legs, and the ability to stand up. But an inordinate amount of shrieking and splashing occurs, anyway, for the little bit of locomotion that ever results in that end of the pool.
The Beloit College list is an intellectual "No Diving / Life Jackets Required" sign, for the shallow end of the pool.
Down at the other end of the pool, nobody is tall enough to stand on the bottom. You've got to know how to swim down there, to be safe; a non-swimmer wearing a life jacket is out of place in 9 feet of water, and generally dead 3 minutes after slipping out his life jacket, if competent rescue isn't on the scene. Even competent swimmers can get eviscerated down there, if they get a little sloppy while diving near a pool filter drain. But you can dive all you want, and the shrieking little non-swimmers are made to stay far away in the shallow end, for another year or two, at least.
posted by paulsc at 10:03 PM on August 23, 2009
The Beloit College list is an intellectual "No Diving / Life Jackets Required" sign, for the shallow end of the pool.
Down at the other end of the pool, nobody is tall enough to stand on the bottom. You've got to know how to swim down there, to be safe; a non-swimmer wearing a life jacket is out of place in 9 feet of water, and generally dead 3 minutes after slipping out his life jacket, if competent rescue isn't on the scene. Even competent swimmers can get eviscerated down there, if they get a little sloppy while diving near a pool filter drain. But you can dive all you want, and the shrieking little non-swimmers are made to stay far away in the shallow end, for another year or two, at least.
posted by paulsc at 10:03 PM on August 23, 2009
WTF? I'm 32, and I've always been taught that putting periods in state abbreviations is wrong. I remember learning this in typing class or something in like 7th grade.
The old abbreviations had periods. It was Calif. before it was CA
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:24 PM on August 23, 2009
The old abbreviations had periods. It was Calif. before it was CA
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:24 PM on August 23, 2009
>For the last two days I've been craving a Primanti Brothers sandwich like crazy.
That's the one!
After ordering a sandwich and a salad, the waitress tried pretty hard to discourage the salad. Following a surprisingly convoluted - but cordial - conversation, I asked for just a big bowl with lettuce in it.
I got this.
was good times.
posted by sloe at 11:57 PM on August 23, 2009
That's the one!
After ordering a sandwich and a salad, the waitress tried pretty hard to discourage the salad. Following a surprisingly convoluted - but cordial - conversation, I asked for just a big bowl with lettuce in it.
I got this.
was good times.
posted by sloe at 11:57 PM on August 23, 2009
Teehee. You guys think the Mindset List is bad, live where I do, and you get cranky old rhetoric professor Thomas McBride writing letters to the editor.
At least I think it was him. Pithy, old-school liberal, yet displayed no knowledge of Greek.
But are those the sort of people who end up at Beloit and schools like it? I'm actually asking; this isn't a rhetorical question. But my impression is that a lot of LACs attract a pretty homogeneous population.
Beloit would be one of the outliers, I believe, even today. It's been chosen as one of 40 Colleges That Change Lives^, and has been shortlisted by the U.S. News rankings for its rate of study abroad. It is valued highly by almost anyone who has been there, yet seems less well known than even other schools in its own athletic conference (Grinnell, Knox), and though it has had influential alumni in the past (Roy Chapman Andrews^, a probable model for Indiana Jones, to cite a key example), has oddly failed in the modern era to promote graduates to the highest levels of external accomplishments (e.g. politicians in Congress, scientists with major awards). The best-known graduate to MetaFilter demographics may be Amy Wright. I suspect this is because graduates tend to come out with a more internal, centered view of success than many other schools. That is, they do things that are interesting and important but not as celebrated (e.g. Mike Davis of Floating the Apple). The image that sticks in my mind is that it's a place where students "sleep on the Indian Mounds" scattered around the campus between classes. Then there was the cafeteria conversation about why we chose Beloit: the two plurality answers were 1. "farthest away from my parents" and 2. "they spelled my name right". The place has character.
There's probably been a regression toward the mean since I was there -- at least that's what I've heard, and what was lamented even while I was there. But I think Beloit is atypical enough to earn the label.
posted by dhartung at 12:20 AM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
At least I think it was him. Pithy, old-school liberal, yet displayed no knowledge of Greek.
But are those the sort of people who end up at Beloit and schools like it? I'm actually asking; this isn't a rhetorical question. But my impression is that a lot of LACs attract a pretty homogeneous population.
Beloit would be one of the outliers, I believe, even today. It's been chosen as one of 40 Colleges That Change Lives^, and has been shortlisted by the U.S. News rankings for its rate of study abroad. It is valued highly by almost anyone who has been there, yet seems less well known than even other schools in its own athletic conference (Grinnell, Knox), and though it has had influential alumni in the past (Roy Chapman Andrews^, a probable model for Indiana Jones, to cite a key example), has oddly failed in the modern era to promote graduates to the highest levels of external accomplishments (e.g. politicians in Congress, scientists with major awards). The best-known graduate to MetaFilter demographics may be Amy Wright. I suspect this is because graduates tend to come out with a more internal, centered view of success than many other schools. That is, they do things that are interesting and important but not as celebrated (e.g. Mike Davis of Floating the Apple). The image that sticks in my mind is that it's a place where students "sleep on the Indian Mounds" scattered around the campus between classes. Then there was the cafeteria conversation about why we chose Beloit: the two plurality answers were 1. "farthest away from my parents" and 2. "they spelled my name right". The place has character.
There's probably been a regression toward the mean since I was there -- at least that's what I've heard, and what was lamented even while I was there. But I think Beloit is atypical enough to earn the label.
posted by dhartung at 12:20 AM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
RIP Pan American.
posted by ariannareiche at 1:11 AM on August 24, 2009
posted by ariannareiche at 1:11 AM on August 24, 2009
I was watching a programme in which spoilt young adults had to help a primary class do a presentation on a historical figure. One of these was Princess Diana. Now, for my GCSE music class we were asked to write a 'song for Diana', so it didn't seem too weird...until I realised that these children were not even conceived when Diana was alive.
posted by mippy at 3:59 AM on August 24, 2009
posted by mippy at 3:59 AM on August 24, 2009
Just looked up my year. Maybe it's the Atlantic divide, but not all of this was true for me and my class.
posted by mippy at 4:02 AM on August 24, 2009
posted by mippy at 4:02 AM on August 24, 2009
I realized a while back that we don't remember feeling shocked when (SPOILERS!) Darth Vader tells Luke he's his father. We just know Vader is Luke's father, and as far as we can tell we've always known, since we saw the movies at too earlier an age to really understand them or remember the details. Or maybe we didn't - maybe we just heard it from other people.
I've never seen Star Wars - or the Python films - for this reason - I know what happens, I know all the lines, I've seen a thousand parodies and heard a thousand off-key quotations. What would I get out of seeing the originals now? I saw Clerks after reading reviews and having it quoted at me, and was left feeling that if I had heard nothing, it would have been a good movie, but as it is it was like hearing a good joke punchline first.
posted by mippy at 4:11 AM on August 24, 2009
I've never seen Star Wars - or the Python films - for this reason - I know what happens, I know all the lines, I've seen a thousand parodies and heard a thousand off-key quotations. What would I get out of seeing the originals now? I saw Clerks after reading reviews and having it quoted at me, and was left feeling that if I had heard nothing, it would have been a good movie, but as it is it was like hearing a good joke punchline first.
posted by mippy at 4:11 AM on August 24, 2009
The other problem with this list is that it seems to be written for 35 yr olds to help them understand 18 yr olds. I don't get half the references because I'm too far removed at the other end (Class of 77). Freddie Mercury? Who the fuck is Freddie Mercury? Did he eat Berry-Berry Kix (whatever those are)? While pretending to smoking dope with Margaret Thatcher? It would be more interesting and useful to lay down touchstones, and keep them consistent (central traumatic event, class of 77: Kennedy and King assassinations, class of 97: falling of the Berlin Wall, class of 2007: 9/11; #1 record the year you were born, % use of Ferris Bueller references in classrooms; Can remember getting color tv; can remember the start of a 4th network, can remember the first family to get cable, tv? what's tv?) etc.
posted by nax at 4:39 AM on August 24, 2009
posted by nax at 4:39 AM on August 24, 2009
This just reminds me that, as a 40-year-old, going back to college this autumn, I'm going to have some difficulty riffing in conversation with my new fellow students...Maybe I'll just end up talking with the instructors, who're just as likely to be younger than I am anyway...
posted by I, Credulous at 8:18 AM on August 24, 2009
posted by I, Credulous at 8:18 AM on August 24, 2009
For these students, my goddamn lawn has always been off limits!
posted by Pollomacho at 8:31 AM on August 24, 2009
posted by Pollomacho at 8:31 AM on August 24, 2009
"The Royal New Zealand Navy has never been permitted a daily ration of rum."
But sodomy and the lash is still cool, right?
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:48 AM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
Those of us who found this list eye-opening are in the stage of our lives where we find such lists eye-opening.
In 15 years, these students will have their own "list of generational gaps" that they'll find oh-so-very-enlightening.
By then, we will have moved onto more practical concerns.
posted by jeremy b at 8:49 AM on August 24, 2009
In 15 years, these students will have their own "list of generational gaps" that they'll find oh-so-very-enlightening.
By then, we will have moved onto more practical concerns.
posted by jeremy b at 8:49 AM on August 24, 2009
ActingTheGoat - The US Postal Service officially implemented the 2-letter state abbreviations the same year that they implemented the 5-digit zip code: 1963.
posted by brand-gnu at 9:10 AM on August 24, 2009
posted by brand-gnu at 9:10 AM on August 24, 2009
NickySkye: Truths being known widely and so quickly, being experienced globally via the internet could and is changing history, shaping events in ways that did not happen so fast in the old newspaper or tv only days.
I see, what your saying. I didn't think of that, as much as I did that this:
Miles Davis was a pioneer, socially, musically. He made way. So now his music has a different sort of cultural impact than it did in the 1960's. It makes sense to me a younger generation might not experience his music the same way because they wouldn't know what it felt like to have lived in a time when black Americans had to sit at the back of a bus and there was segregation. I experience Jimi Hendrix' music as triumphant, politically fierce, dangerously mischievous. I understand kids these days would likely not get that. Times have changed. What was wild then is now mainstream.
Is the soul-feeding eyewitness cultural transmission (through a fine mind and heart), that we, or younger people need, (and now that you mention it, I can totally hear the mischievousness in what Hendirx was doing. I never thought of it that way to be honest, but your completely right on. I simply perceived it as more subversive, which is a blanket statement that doesn't go deep enough, now that I think about it, ) they don't need to be reminded of their shortcomings by a gimmicky list, even if I realize it is a way for the older set to get a perspective on how teens see the world. It is strange and sad to think that "one's world" has been imperceptibaly enfolded into a whole new one.
posted by Skygazer at 10:00 AM on August 24, 2009
I see, what your saying. I didn't think of that, as much as I did that this:
Miles Davis was a pioneer, socially, musically. He made way. So now his music has a different sort of cultural impact than it did in the 1960's. It makes sense to me a younger generation might not experience his music the same way because they wouldn't know what it felt like to have lived in a time when black Americans had to sit at the back of a bus and there was segregation. I experience Jimi Hendrix' music as triumphant, politically fierce, dangerously mischievous. I understand kids these days would likely not get that. Times have changed. What was wild then is now mainstream.
Is the soul-feeding eyewitness cultural transmission (through a fine mind and heart), that we, or younger people need, (and now that you mention it, I can totally hear the mischievousness in what Hendirx was doing. I never thought of it that way to be honest, but your completely right on. I simply perceived it as more subversive, which is a blanket statement that doesn't go deep enough, now that I think about it, ) they don't need to be reminded of their shortcomings by a gimmicky list, even if I realize it is a way for the older set to get a perspective on how teens see the world. It is strange and sad to think that "one's world" has been imperceptibaly enfolded into a whole new one.
posted by Skygazer at 10:00 AM on August 24, 2009
All these lists are rendered invalid by the fact that most kids' TV consumption consisted almost entirely of repeats.
posted by hnnrs at 10:39 AM on August 24, 2009
posted by hnnrs at 10:39 AM on August 24, 2009
This just reminds me that, as a 40-year-old, going back to college this autumn, I'm going to have some difficulty riffing in conversation with my new fellow students...
This might depend on the classes you're taking. Maybe try some Classics courses? Jokes about ancient Greek literature haven't aged that much in the past twenty years.
posted by ODiV at 11:46 AM on August 24, 2009
This might depend on the classes you're taking. Maybe try some Classics courses? Jokes about ancient Greek literature haven't aged that much in the past twenty years.
posted by ODiV at 11:46 AM on August 24, 2009
Thanks for the lovely dialogue Skygazer. A treat.
You said:
now that I think about it, ) they don't need to be reminded of their shortcomings by a gimmicky list, even if I realize it is a way for the older set to get a perspective on how teens see the world.
I didn't see the list as one of shortcomings, only perspective. Oh, you mean it sounds like the list is saying the younger people have shortcomings in not knowing life as it was before? huh. Blame? I didn't see it that way. I saw it as blame the old farts didn't experience life as being so cool, lol.
Cute your nice politeness with "older set". When I was a little rascal, in my teens, there was Barry Shear's 1968 movie ''Wild in the Streets'' in which a kid yells out, "Don't trust anyone over 30!" and it became popular, so anyone over 30 was considered over the hill, old, not hip, usually somebody who had by dint of their age, sold out. But since the 60's the over the hill age has been less than 30. More like 25 now. Maybe, by the time you're an old fart, older than 20 will be considered over the hill? Of course, when people are 30, they think of older than 40 as over the hill and people over 40 think of 50 as over the hill and people who are 50 think 70 is over the hill, or maybe 60. I guess everybody thinks 80 is an old timer but a dear neighbor kept in great shape up to 80 and no way she thought she was old. It's funny, nobody wants to be old. I like being old, old as I am, 55, proud of what I learned along the way, the lessons, the mistakes, all the experiences. I like my wrinkles, age spots, white hairs.
Each decade has its own "older set".
You said:
It is strange and sad to think that "one's world" has been imperceptibaly enfolded into a whole new one.
There is sadness when something feels lost, time lost, years lost as if time that passed disappeared. And then there is the excitement each generation has when they discover the world in their own, unique, ways, create their own language, their own culture, music, art, technology. I think nostalgia arises for the time of one's youth with both a sense of loss and a valuing of one's younger years, when the world was being discovered, or one had a part in changing culture in new ways.
Ageism has been around a long time. As if only young is good. I think young is good, older is good and old is good too. Really. Each in different ways.
What I like, mostly, about this list is to remind people who are not as young as the class of 2013, that life has changed culturally and technologically. Those kids do not know what life was like before and to keep that in mind so as to stay in touch with younger perspectives, both valuing the past and excited by the new.
The truth is that nothing is lost, the time that has past is part of now. All of that past is part of the amazing brocade of history, which is ongoing in the multi-dimensional expanse of time. This extraordinary moment is fantastic in all of its complexity, its history, its newness, foundation of the past, discovery of the new, the unknown part, it's all there in the now.
Which is to say I'm glad the past becomes enfolded into the present, it makes a fertile ground for each new moment.
posted by nickyskye at 11:49 AM on August 24, 2009
You said:
now that I think about it, ) they don't need to be reminded of their shortcomings by a gimmicky list, even if I realize it is a way for the older set to get a perspective on how teens see the world.
I didn't see the list as one of shortcomings, only perspective. Oh, you mean it sounds like the list is saying the younger people have shortcomings in not knowing life as it was before? huh. Blame? I didn't see it that way. I saw it as blame the old farts didn't experience life as being so cool, lol.
Cute your nice politeness with "older set". When I was a little rascal, in my teens, there was Barry Shear's 1968 movie ''Wild in the Streets'' in which a kid yells out, "Don't trust anyone over 30!" and it became popular, so anyone over 30 was considered over the hill, old, not hip, usually somebody who had by dint of their age, sold out. But since the 60's the over the hill age has been less than 30. More like 25 now. Maybe, by the time you're an old fart, older than 20 will be considered over the hill? Of course, when people are 30, they think of older than 40 as over the hill and people over 40 think of 50 as over the hill and people who are 50 think 70 is over the hill, or maybe 60. I guess everybody thinks 80 is an old timer but a dear neighbor kept in great shape up to 80 and no way she thought she was old. It's funny, nobody wants to be old. I like being old, old as I am, 55, proud of what I learned along the way, the lessons, the mistakes, all the experiences. I like my wrinkles, age spots, white hairs.
Each decade has its own "older set".
You said:
It is strange and sad to think that "one's world" has been imperceptibaly enfolded into a whole new one.
There is sadness when something feels lost, time lost, years lost as if time that passed disappeared. And then there is the excitement each generation has when they discover the world in their own, unique, ways, create their own language, their own culture, music, art, technology. I think nostalgia arises for the time of one's youth with both a sense of loss and a valuing of one's younger years, when the world was being discovered, or one had a part in changing culture in new ways.
Ageism has been around a long time. As if only young is good. I think young is good, older is good and old is good too. Really. Each in different ways.
What I like, mostly, about this list is to remind people who are not as young as the class of 2013, that life has changed culturally and technologically. Those kids do not know what life was like before and to keep that in mind so as to stay in touch with younger perspectives, both valuing the past and excited by the new.
The truth is that nothing is lost, the time that has past is part of now. All of that past is part of the amazing brocade of history, which is ongoing in the multi-dimensional expanse of time. This extraordinary moment is fantastic in all of its complexity, its history, its newness, foundation of the past, discovery of the new, the unknown part, it's all there in the now.
Which is to say I'm glad the past becomes enfolded into the present, it makes a fertile ground for each new moment.
posted by nickyskye at 11:49 AM on August 24, 2009
From my year (Class of 2004 - born in 2000)
# They have always bought telephones, rather than rent them from AT&T.
# Woodstock is a bird or a reunion, not a cultural touchstone.
# They have never heard a phone "ring."
# They only know Madonna singing American Pie.
# They neither know who Billy Joe was, nor wondered what he was doing on the Talahatchee Bridge.
# They have never used a bottle of "White Out."
What crap! First of all, I do have memories from before 2000 (the year Madonna sang American Pie). Even though it was released when I was four, I had Madonna's album "True Blue" and choreographed my own dances to "Papa Don't Preach" for years. I danced to "Like a Prayer" in my grade two talent show. I have used White Out, and still refer to all brands by that name. Second, although I was born in 1982, my parents were born significantly before that - we had shag carpeting, rented our phone (which rang), and listened to Billy Joel. As teens, my friends and I were obsessed with the 70s (Dazed and Confused) and Woodstock - we all wished we had been born in time to be there.
These lists treat people as though we have never paid attention or been interested in anything that happened during our childhood or before our birth. As though we haven't had adults in our lives who have taught us anything or exposed us to their interests and influences. Maybe I didn't fully understand the falling of the Berlin Wall at the time, but I knew as much as I was able to understand - which was considerable, we shouldn't underestimate the cognitive capacities of kids, - and watched the news footage with rapt attention.
These lists are nothing but condescending soundbites, factually incorrect and superficial.
posted by arcticwoman at 11:50 AM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
# They have always bought telephones, rather than rent them from AT&T.
# Woodstock is a bird or a reunion, not a cultural touchstone.
# They have never heard a phone "ring."
# They only know Madonna singing American Pie.
# They neither know who Billy Joe was, nor wondered what he was doing on the Talahatchee Bridge.
# They have never used a bottle of "White Out."
What crap! First of all, I do have memories from before 2000 (the year Madonna sang American Pie). Even though it was released when I was four, I had Madonna's album "True Blue" and choreographed my own dances to "Papa Don't Preach" for years. I danced to "Like a Prayer" in my grade two talent show. I have used White Out, and still refer to all brands by that name. Second, although I was born in 1982, my parents were born significantly before that - we had shag carpeting, rented our phone (which rang), and listened to Billy Joel. As teens, my friends and I were obsessed with the 70s (Dazed and Confused) and Woodstock - we all wished we had been born in time to be there.
These lists treat people as though we have never paid attention or been interested in anything that happened during our childhood or before our birth. As though we haven't had adults in our lives who have taught us anything or exposed us to their interests and influences. Maybe I didn't fully understand the falling of the Berlin Wall at the time, but I knew as much as I was able to understand - which was considerable, we shouldn't underestimate the cognitive capacities of kids, - and watched the news footage with rapt attention.
These lists are nothing but condescending soundbites, factually incorrect and superficial.
posted by arcticwoman at 11:50 AM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
Oops - born in 1982. Graduated high school in 2000.
posted by arcticwoman at 11:52 AM on August 24, 2009
posted by arcticwoman at 11:52 AM on August 24, 2009
Maybe some of the people who don't see the inherent almost-insulting ridiculousness of these lists would know where the subjects of them are coming from if there were lists like:
40 YEAR OLDS TODAY
- THE USA HAS ALWAYS EXISTED
- HAVE ALWAYS WATCHED CARTOONS ON TELEVISION
- HAVE NEVER HAD TO ROTARY DIAL A TELEPHONE
posted by Solon and Thanks at 12:00 PM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
40 YEAR OLDS TODAY
- THE USA HAS ALWAYS EXISTED
- HAVE ALWAYS WATCHED CARTOONS ON TELEVISION
- HAVE NEVER HAD TO ROTARY DIAL A TELEPHONE
posted by Solon and Thanks at 12:00 PM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
First of all, I do have memories from before 2000 (the year Madonna sang American Pie).
I think you might be misreading their intent, arcticwoman. They're not saying that American Pie is the only Madonna song you remember. They're saying that of all the people who have sung American Pie, the version you are most likely to remember is Madonna's.
Dumb kids don't know anything, news at 11. (Do kids even know what that expression even means anymore what with the mult-platform ubiquitiousness of the interwebs?)
I'm class of '03 and the only place I've ever heard that phrase is the interwebs.
*gets off your lawn*
posted by the latin mouse at 12:04 PM on August 24, 2009
I think you might be misreading their intent, arcticwoman. They're not saying that American Pie is the only Madonna song you remember. They're saying that of all the people who have sung American Pie, the version you are most likely to remember is Madonna's.
Dumb kids don't know anything, news at 11. (Do kids even know what that expression even means anymore what with the mult-platform ubiquitiousness of the interwebs?)
I'm class of '03 and the only place I've ever heard that phrase is the interwebs.
*gets off your lawn*
posted by the latin mouse at 12:04 PM on August 24, 2009
Well, I think these lists are pretty understandable. I had this problem last year when, for the first time, some of the first year kids would have been born in 1990. I mean, you could be out at a bar and run into one of your students and then realize you are talking to someone who was three when you graduated high school. The person is standing there with a beer in their hand and talking to you about their interest in sociology or whatever and they were barely sentient the first time you stepped into a university... it's a little weird, actually.
posted by ServSci at 12:09 PM on August 24, 2009
posted by ServSci at 12:09 PM on August 24, 2009
I also have to laugh at the fact that this list assumes people don't have any experience with technology that was invented before they were born. It reminds me of those people who think teenagers don't know what a record player is. (Hint: the people who think that know what a telegraph is - despite it probably being mostly obsolete before they were born. Hmmmm.)
posted by Solon and Thanks at 12:11 PM on August 24, 2009
posted by Solon and Thanks at 12:11 PM on August 24, 2009
Not where I live, the land where they put fries on everything.
Ah Pittsburgh. My home town. I'd love a steak salad, right about now.
Oh, Squirrel Hill. In case you were curious.
Although, I had to point out to my PARENTS that the label on the Heinz bottle was a keystone. Tripped everyone out at the table with that one.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:34 PM on August 24, 2009
Ah Pittsburgh. My home town. I'd love a steak salad, right about now.
Oh, Squirrel Hill. In case you were curious.
Although, I had to point out to my PARENTS that the label on the Heinz bottle was a keystone. Tripped everyone out at the table with that one.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:34 PM on August 24, 2009
You may be right, the_latin_mouse, but then my other criticism still stands. My parents listened to music, and I loved a lot of stuff that came out before I was born. Just because Don McLean sang the song a full decade before I was born didn't mean I never heard it. By the time Madonna sang the song, I had almost two decades of exposure to the original.
posted by arcticwoman at 12:43 PM on August 24, 2009
posted by arcticwoman at 12:43 PM on August 24, 2009
It surprises me the ire inspired by this list. It's not about blame, or accusing people of not knowing, it's about understanding the general perspective of the generation graduating in 2013, " a look at the cultural touchstones that shape the lives of students entering college". It is not an accusation or stating ignorance, it is "a reminder of the rapidly changing frame of reference for this new generation".
A reminder, a look. Not an accusation, not saying this is hard fact for every single person graduating in 2013.
posted by nickyskye at 1:02 PM on August 24, 2009
A reminder, a look. Not an accusation, not saying this is hard fact for every single person graduating in 2013.
posted by nickyskye at 1:02 PM on August 24, 2009
I think you might be misreading their intent, arcticwoman. They're not saying that American Pie is the only Madonna song you remember. They're saying that of all the people who have sung American Pie, the version you are most likely to remember is Madonna's.
I was born in 1982 and heard the Don McLean version more times than I care to remember.
Oh, and most of my favourite music are C86 bands. I know someone born in 1989 who loves Lloyd Cole and Orange Juice. I had a rotary phone in 2005 (albeit retro).
But I don't remember Dallas, my teenage nephews wouldn't have a clue what is meant by 'stained blue dress' or ever bought music on tape, and they wouldn't know what Marathon, Opal Fruits or Immac were. Even by the time I got to university, there were classmates who had never heard of The Smiths.
posted by mippy at 1:33 PM on August 24, 2009
I was born in 1982 and heard the Don McLean version more times than I care to remember.
Oh, and most of my favourite music are C86 bands. I know someone born in 1989 who loves Lloyd Cole and Orange Juice. I had a rotary phone in 2005 (albeit retro).
But I don't remember Dallas, my teenage nephews wouldn't have a clue what is meant by 'stained blue dress' or ever bought music on tape, and they wouldn't know what Marathon, Opal Fruits or Immac were. Even by the time I got to university, there were classmates who had never heard of The Smiths.
posted by mippy at 1:33 PM on August 24, 2009
fuzzypantalones: in my day, pluto was a planet.
You're on to something here. We need to create a wiki page of things they'll include in future lists of things pupils supposedly don't but actually do know about.
posted by atbash at 1:36 PM on August 24, 2009
You're on to something here. We need to create a wiki page of things they'll include in future lists of things pupils supposedly don't but actually do know about.
posted by atbash at 1:36 PM on August 24, 2009
A reminder, a look. Not an accusation, not saying this is hard fact for every single person graduating in 2013.
But a lot of these aren't even facts for the majority of those people. I think it's a great idea to try and show the mindsets of different generations, but these lists are so bad at it.
What I'm saying is, as someone who was the subject of these lists 2 years ago and has siblings and friends as the subject of this list - if you use this list to try and understand a current 18/19-year-old you will fail miserably.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:59 PM on August 24, 2009
But a lot of these aren't even facts for the majority of those people. I think it's a great idea to try and show the mindsets of different generations, but these lists are so bad at it.
What I'm saying is, as someone who was the subject of these lists 2 years ago and has siblings and friends as the subject of this list - if you use this list to try and understand a current 18/19-year-old you will fail miserably.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:59 PM on August 24, 2009
Cocoon's on the idiot box and when they broke into the pool one of the old farts said, "in like the marines" and I wondered what were other phrases that were before my time, googled a couple that I heard but never understood or related to: olly olly oxen free or under separate cover.
posted by nickyskye at 2:07 PM on August 24, 2009
posted by nickyskye at 2:07 PM on August 24, 2009
Nobody has ever responded to “Help, I’ve fallen and I can’t get up.”
Perhaps the saddest thing I've ever read. I bet they don't know where the beef is either.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:50 PM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
Perhaps the saddest thing I've ever read. I bet they don't know where the beef is either.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:50 PM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
if you use this list to try and understand a current 18/19-year-old you will fail miserably
Understanding anyone, of any age, takes a lot more than any list. All that the Benoit list offers is "a look at the cultural touchstones that shape the lives of students entering college." That's all, a look.
"Members of the class of 2013 won't be surprised when they can charge a latté on their cell phone and curl up in the corner to read a textbook on an electronic screen. The migration of once independent media—radio, TV, videos and CDs—to the computer has never amazed them. They have grown up in a politically correct universe in which multi-culturalism has been a given. It is a world organized around globalization, with McDonald's everywhere on the planet. Carter and Reagan are as distant to them as Truman and Eisenhower were to their parents. Tattoos, once thought "lower class," are, to them, quite chic. Everybody knows the news before the evening news comes on."
See, that stuff amazes me and I find it quite useful to comprehend.
posted by nickyskye at 5:01 PM on August 24, 2009
Understanding anyone, of any age, takes a lot more than any list. All that the Benoit list offers is "a look at the cultural touchstones that shape the lives of students entering college." That's all, a look.
"Members of the class of 2013 won't be surprised when they can charge a latté on their cell phone and curl up in the corner to read a textbook on an electronic screen. The migration of once independent media—radio, TV, videos and CDs—to the computer has never amazed them. They have grown up in a politically correct universe in which multi-culturalism has been a given. It is a world organized around globalization, with McDonald's everywhere on the planet. Carter and Reagan are as distant to them as Truman and Eisenhower were to their parents. Tattoos, once thought "lower class," are, to them, quite chic. Everybody knows the news before the evening news comes on."
See, that stuff amazes me and I find it quite useful to comprehend.
posted by nickyskye at 5:01 PM on August 24, 2009
Okay, fair enough. It's perhaps logical that the list would look very different to its subjects than it does to those who are intended to read it.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 10:32 PM on August 24, 2009
posted by Solon and Thanks at 10:32 PM on August 24, 2009
#51 Britney Spears has always been heard on classic rock stations.
I do not think this phrase means what you think it means.
posted by usonian at 8:39 AM on August 25, 2009
I do not think this phrase means what you think it means.
posted by usonian at 8:39 AM on August 25, 2009
I bet they don't know where the beef is either.
What does this mean?
posted by mippy at 8:49 AM on August 25, 2009
What does this mean?
posted by mippy at 8:49 AM on August 25, 2009
'Beef' is a slang word used to refer to feuds between hip-hop artists.
posted by box at 8:52 AM on August 25, 2009
posted by box at 8:52 AM on August 25, 2009
I bet they don't know where the beef is either.
What does this mean?
Please tell me you're kidding.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:23 PM on August 25, 2009
What does this mean?
Please tell me you're kidding.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 5:23 PM on August 25, 2009
No. Does pointing out I'm not American help your incredulity?
posted by mippy at 4:44 AM on August 26, 2009
posted by mippy at 4:44 AM on August 26, 2009
'Beef' is a slang word used to refer to feuds between hip-hop artists.
Ah, OK. So instead of getting rinsed, they get minced?
posted by mippy at 4:45 AM on August 26, 2009
Ah, OK. So instead of getting rinsed, they get minced?
posted by mippy at 4:45 AM on August 26, 2009
I bet they don't know where the beef is either.
What does this mean?
Please tell me you're kidding.
See also.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:39 AM on August 26, 2009
What does this mean?
Please tell me you're kidding.
See also.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:39 AM on August 26, 2009
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1. Have always paid more for a candy bar/loaf of bread than I have.
2. Are younger than you are.
3. Have always been able to stay off of my lawn.
Bah, humbug.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:49 AM on August 23, 2009 [2 favorites]