SIGG admits to BPA

August 23, 2009 9:26 AM

In a press statement released this weekendthe CEO of SIGG Switzerland, Steve Wasik admits that SIGG bottles manufactured before August 2008 used a liner that contained BPA (previously).

SIGG has claimed to be BPA-free for over a year now, all the while, refusing to admit what exactly was in the old liner. Websites that sell SIGG products, such as Reusabags.com tout the safety of SIGG bottles, even linking to a report SIGG had commissioned (5 page PDF) on BPA leaching in their bottles.

The reaction from the sustainable living community hasn't been good.

posted by mdaugherty82 (177 comments total)

They started manufacturing in China, too.

Is there a way to check the manufacturing date on a Sigg bottle?
posted by box at 9:32 AM on August 23

Even easier--the liners are two different colors.
posted by box at 9:36 AM on August 23

Box, the color of the liner is very different; see the "sustainable living" link.
posted by Antidisestablishmentarianist at 9:36 AM on August 23

Why, for the love of god, can't I find something to put water into for my kids that doesn't leach chemicals!? Back when everyone talked about Nalgeen and the crap in most baby bottles we got our son a Sigg sippy cup. Now, I did read the article and I know it shows that SIGG didn't have detectable levels, but come the fuck on. It shouldn't be this hard.

All this chemical crap makes me look like one of those insane parents that wants to sterilize their children's environment but the truth of the matter is that I want my kids to get dirty and play outside and touch things without swabbing them down with antibacterial goo. The problem is that I don't want them to eat out of the neighbor's garden which sits adjacent to their lead painted house and gets weird roof runoff. I don't want them to put weird plastic shit in the mouths. I don't want them to suck on cloth toys when I have NO IDEA what kind of poisons have been deemed acceptable (or not-- doesn't seem to really matter any more) because they are rated to be worn and not ingested.
posted by lucasks at 9:40 AM on August 23 [5 favorites]

Context: What is BPA and what is SIGG. (Also, what is a drinking fountain.)
posted by DU at 9:40 AM on August 23 [1 favorite]

Is there a way to check the manufacturing date on a Sigg bottle?

From the link: It is easy to determine which liner you have, as they are of 2 distinctly different colors. Visit www.MySIGG.com/liner to see photos comparing the two.

Anyway, the results of the study showed SIGGs, even the old ones, to leach the lowest amount by far, so much so as to be undetectable:

In comparison, SIGG bottles faired extremely well. Based on this analytical method, the limit of quantitation (LOQ) for BPA was approximately 2ppb. The LOQ is the level of BPA that can be determined reliably in these samples. Even under these extreme temperature conditions, no BPA was detectable in the SIGG bottles above this LOQ.

posted by carsonb at 9:40 AM on August 23 [2 favorites]

So, anyone, what is a good alternative? I need to order a new water bottle. I lost the old one, but yeah, it was a SIGG.
posted by defenestration at 9:42 AM on August 23

OK, they should have been up front, but if there is truly no BPA leaching under any testable circumstance, how much damage was actually done? They only claimed no leaching, so they were telling the truth, yes?
posted by Antidisestablishmentarianist at 9:44 AM on August 23

Klean Kanteen bottles are unlined stainless steel. Not to sound like a shill.
posted by box at 9:47 AM on August 23 [4 favorites]

relax
posted by klanawa at 9:50 AM on August 23 [6 favorites]

Are stainless steel thermoses out of fashion for some reason? Seems that would be the way to go for keeping water from reaching 150 degrees while out in the August heat/
posted by crapmatic at 9:50 AM on August 23

And what about those of us who have (or in my case, HAD - when they say don't put them in the freezer, they mean it) BPA lined Sigg bottles? Will they replace them?
posted by elsietheeel at 9:51 AM on August 23

defenestration, I would recommend a KleenKanteen. It's just stainless steel, an alloy of steel and chromium. Perfectly inert. Though it has some electrical properties. For instance, I wouldn't store wine in a KleenKanteen, but I would in a Sigg.

Didn't the french have canteens lined with ceramic in WWII? Now that would be cool! One thing I've tried is to patina the inside of my Kanteen with tea. It seems to work ok ;)
posted by kuatto at 9:53 AM on August 23

Ah, but unlined metal bottles release heavy metals into the water.

If that's something you don't want, use glass.
posted by stereo at 9:53 AM on August 23

OK, they should have been up front, but if there is truly no BPA leaching under any testable circumstance, how much damage was actually done? They only claimed no leaching, so they were telling the truth, yes?

Yes, but shh! We're getting our druthers up and you'll ruin it.
posted by carsonb at 9:56 AM on August 23 [7 favorites]

Assuming the worst case, that the old SIGG bottles leach just under the 2ppb that would have been detected by the test, how much water would you have to drink from a SIGG bottle to reach the FDA limit of 50µg/kg/day?

Assume a typical 60kg woman. The exposure limit is then 3000µg/day. At 2ppb, drinking 1000g of water yields an exposure of 2µg. To get 3000µg then requires drinking 1500kg of water from a SIGG bottle, per day, and that's assuming the worst possible leaching levels, which would only occur if the water were extremely hot.

The lowest BPA exposure levels found to have an effect were from two 2005 studies that found effects from exposures of .025µg/kg/day. That would be .75kg or 750mL of water from a SIGG bottle per day, still assuming the worst possible leaching levels.

So under some really worst-case-scenario assumptions, if you drank a full bottle of water from your SIGG every day, you might get some negative effects. It's much more likely that nothing would come of it. The real issue here is SIGG not being entirely honest.
posted by jedicus at 9:59 AM on August 23 [16 favorites]

Taking a look at the KleenKanteen site and their commitment of '1% for the planet'. Doesn't the planet deserve between 3% and 5%??
posted by kuatto at 10:00 AM on August 23 [4 favorites]

jedicus,

Are you suggesting that BPA tainted water is like poisoned Kool-Aid?
posted by kuatto at 10:01 AM on August 23

I've been wanting a Sigg, but the prices seemed too high. All this sturm und drang will drop the prices of the ones with reformulated liners to a more reasonable level. Yay me. No BPA, nice new bottle. Win-Win.
posted by Antidisestablishmentarianist at 10:01 AM on August 23

They only claimed no leaching, so they were telling the truth, yes?

No. They were asked if they contained BPA and they responded that the test results showed no BPA. When asked directly if the bottles contained BPA they said they weren't willing to reveal what was in the bottle as it was proprietary and if they did their competition would steal it. They lied by omission.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 10:03 AM on August 23

Seeing as their competitors' liners leached at the very least five times as much BPA in the studies, I can understand wanting to keep that competitive edge. They 'lied by omission' about something that doesn't really matter, all the while taking the concerns into account and developing a new, BPA-free, ecologically friendly liner.

There are other corporations deserving your ire, ones with much more dangerous products for your kids to lick.
posted by carsonb at 10:10 AM on August 23 [1 favorite]

This all sort of reminds me of the stoning scene at the beginning of Life of Brian.
posted by carsonb at 10:13 AM on August 23

carsonb,

If they do not deserve our ire, does sigg deserve our antipathy?
posted by kuatto at 10:13 AM on August 23

So, anyone, what is a good alternative?

I have one of these. They sell them at our local food coop. I think if you want to feel okay about this stuff you have to go glass or stainless steel.

It's so hard to avoid though -- we bought Dr. Brown's glass bottles for our baby, but you're never too sure about the plastic stems that fit in them. We have Pyrex for food storage and we save glass mayonnaise jars and such for food storage also.

But then I wonder about wrapping stuff in plastic to freeze it, and then I think, maybe I should buy freezer paper, and then I realized that's lined with god knows what, and then I just sit in a dark room and breathe into a paper bag and then I come out and order some chinese food that comes in screeching hot in plastic #7 containers.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 10:14 AM on August 23 [8 favorites]

That site includes this gem: "we are featured on Leonardo Dicaprio’s new website." And it's got a TV Guide logo stamped on it.

I think that must have been a long, hard, meeting when the marketing guys piped up with that one.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 10:16 AM on August 23

According to some of the blogs, if you email [e-mail] with your bottle info (model, purchase date and vendor) and they'll replace your bottle with one of the new BPA-free ones. I don't see that claim on their website however.

My first FPP! And I feel like it's going well!
posted by mdaugherty82 at 10:17 AM on August 23 [2 favorites]

does sigg deserve our antipathy?

I dunno. Do you have some extra lying around?
posted by carsonb at 10:19 AM on August 23

Ah, but unlined metal bottles release heavy metals into the water.

Stainless steel doesn't, that I'm aware of.

BTW, what do you cook in?
posted by DU at 10:20 AM on August 23 [1 favorite]

DU: Cooking itself releases carcinogens, regardless of vessel. A raw food diet is the only safe way to remove this threat. Boycott heat!
posted by Antidisestablishmentarianist at 10:27 AM on August 23 [5 favorites]

privatized water is evil. public spaces should have public water supplies and public toilets.
posted by geos at 10:29 AM on August 23 [8 favorites]

it sucks that they were not totally honest. it sucks even more that the today show or whatever can throw people into a frenzy by revealing things we've known about a particular chemical for 60 years or whatever and still hasn't been shown to pose a real health risk.
posted by snofoam at 10:31 AM on August 23

So under some really worst-case-scenario assumptions, if you drank a full bottle of water from your SIGG every day, you might get some negative effects. It's much more likely that nothing would come of it. The real issue here is SIGG not being entirely honest.

I'd guess most people who carry these drink more than that from their bottles. I probably drink 3 or so bottles per day (assuming I don't drink any other liquids that day).

It's not like OH NOES I WILL DIES RIGHT AWAY. It's just fuckin' annoying to those of us who switched bottles specifically because of this issue. They're not cheap, after all.
posted by miss tea at 10:32 AM on August 23 [2 favorites]

The thing is, it isn't that BPA from your water bottle is going to "gitcha". It's that, at pretty much any stage along the way, almost ALL of your food and beverages have had some contact with plastics that can leech into your food.

Back in the 50s which all this crap was being developed, it wasn't that big of an issue, because glass or metal was the standard, and plastics were less common. Time moves forward, business has its way with cost-cutting, and we find ourselves in a world where even canned food is really resting on a plastic liner, and where finding a glass-insert Thermos bottle is a major urban safari. Even the bulk food items at the health food store, I bet, are dispensed out of plastic.

I'm not saying that all plastic is bad and will leech, but it is the layer after layer of exposure which can build up the levels in the human body over time. If it were only a matter of the SIGG liners, there would not be any concern at all.
posted by hippybear at 10:41 AM on August 23 [4 favorites]

miss tea: It's just fuckin' annoying to those of us who switched bottles specifically because of this issue.

Exactly. I got flack from more than a couple of my friends for daring to drink from a Nalgene bottle because of OH NOES THE BPA WILL KILL YOU.
posted by mkultra at 10:50 AM on August 23

Cooking itself releases carcinogens, regardless of vessel. A raw food diet is the only safe way to remove this threat. Boycott heat!

Not true, since some foods are more carcinogenic raw (mushrooms are the most notorious example).
posted by grouse at 10:53 AM on August 23 [1 favorite]

> I'm not saying that all plastic is bad and will leech, but it is the layer after layer of exposure which can build up the levels in the human body over time

Bioaccumulation, it's fun for the whole food chain!

posted by mrzarquon at 10:55 AM on August 23 [1 favorite]

Can those of you who are making HAR HAR BETTER BECOME A RAWFOODIST and "look at the hypersensitive water freaks getting their panties in a twist" cut it out? Thanks.

This is really disappointing. I specifically switched to the Siggs after realizing how quickly the water I'd keep in my old Nalgene bottles would start tasting funny. Time to go check my lining.

So under some really worst-case-scenario assumptions, if you drank a full bottle of water from your SIGG every day, you might get some negative effects. It's much more likely that nothing would come of it. The real issue here is SIGG not being entirely honest.

At least in my case (and I don't think I'm alone) I drink out of my Sigg constantly -- probably sucking up at least three bottles a day. Most people I know who have the bottles keep them in their bag and refill them from water fountains, coolers, etc. to have an alternative to bottled water, so my guess is that many people who use the bottles regularly are drinking more than a bottle's worth. So the "real issue" is more than just honesty.

As more and more consumers place a premium on products that are purportedly greener and/or healthier than cheaper alternatives, the market will respond accordingly: creating more "green" and "healthy" products, but also finding ways to make deceptive claims to induce consumers to pay more for a product on the basis of these misleading claims.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 10:59 AM on August 23 [9 favorites]

A person isn't safe anywhere these days.
posted by plexi at 11:02 AM on August 23

Wow!
What a bunch of crybabies some of you are.
posted by davebarnes at 11:06 AM on August 23 [3 favorites]

relax
posted by klanawa at 12:50 PM on August 23 [+] [!]

Exactly. Chill, people.
posted by killdevil at 11:11 AM on August 23 [2 favorites]

Does anyone know about Gaiam bottles? Googling is not producing much info about their BPA levels. Mine has the scary copper lining!

Also, this whole thing reminds me of this great Stuff White People Like entry.
posted by lunasol at 11:11 AM on August 23

I meant, of course,

Can those of you who are making HAR HAR BETTER BECOME A RAWFOODIST and "look at the hypersensitive water freaks getting their panties in a twist"- type comments cut it out?
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 11:13 AM on August 23

I never really cared about the chemicals in my water bottle until I became pregnant. Why would I want endocrine disruptors leaching into my water, right when I was growing a new, vulnerable life? I am grown, I do plenty of chemical damage to myself with artificial sweeteners, bad diet choices, etc. But I really wanted to do right by that little clump of cells that became my boy. All this BPA research hit the media right at the time I was the most worried.
posted by pinky at 11:16 AM on August 23

Water bottles. Bottled water. WTF?

When I'm thirsty I grab a glass, turn on the tap, fill to the brim ... and then I drink.

Why the need for a fucking plastic/metal bottle? Maybe if I'm traversing the Sahara it would make sense. But, in modern day settings -- WTF?
posted by ericb at 11:25 AM on August 23 [4 favorites]

Why the need for a fucking plastic/metal bottle? Maybe if I'm traversing the Sahara it would make sense. But, in modern day settings -- WTF?

Um, glasses aren't always available at the local sink, it's nice to not to have to walk out to the water fountain every time you'd like a sip, and I prefer not to use disposable cups?

I get thirsty a lot in places where Jeeves isn't on hand to fetch me a glass of water?
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 11:32 AM on August 23 [2 favorites]

I get thirsty a lot in places where Jeeves isn't on hand to fetch me a glass of water?

My Jeeves is always available.

(I'm also one of those people who find it abhorrent when I see someone walking in public and eating. And don't get me started on when I see someone driving and eating!).
posted by ericb at 11:36 AM on August 23

Why the need for a fucking plastic/metal bottle? Maybe if I'm traversing the Sahara it would make sense. But, in modern day settings -- WTF?

You know I tried biking to class with a glass of water in my backpack instead of a water bottle and somehow my laptop and notebooks all got wet.

But at least they were BPA free....
posted by cyphill at 11:40 AM on August 23 [1 favorite]

You know I tried biking to class with a glass of water in my backpack...

Suggestion: have Jeeves drive you to your class! The bar is fully-stocked.
posted by ericb at 11:48 AM on August 23 [2 favorites]

Why the need for a fucking plastic/metal bottle? Maybe if I'm traversing the Sahara it would make sense. But, in modern day settings -- WTF?

Partly breast cancer, and other hormone-related cancers. Bisphenol A, a chemical that leaches into food and beverages from many consumer products, causes normal, non-cancerous human breast cells to express genes characteristic of aggressive breast cancer cells.


University of Cincinnati study:
In the absence of oestrogen, Dr. Belcher said, BPA alone was found to mimic the actions of oestrogen in developing neurons, and very low doses of BPA completely inhibited the activity of oestrogen. Because oestrogen normally increases the growth and regulates viability of developing neurons, he said, these results support the idea that BPA may harm developing brain cells.

That's part of the reason, and that's just a two second Google search. The other part of it is the creeping fear a lot of us have from the knowledge of physically devastating chemicals having passed into casual use in the past. Thalidomide was an anti-nausea medicine. It's safe to assume that women who casually took it in the sixties didn't expect to have babies with missing arms or legs that stopped at the knee.

So, the bottom line is, we, 'we' being 'neurotic people who are skeeved out by BPA in water bottles' don't trust the government or the corporations to be truthful about its effects. Obviously not speaking for anyone but myself, but I am completely at sea in evaluating studies in the physical sciences. I couldn't pretend to be any good at it, so I only have the FDA to tell me whether or not to avoid something. And who would trust them? Who should trust them?

The sheer volume of this post is going to make me look like I have a really big dog in this fight but I don't; I tend to avoid plastics for food storage, but I right now have some olives in good old plastic #7 in the refrigerator.

My point is that the reason is a) not knowing for sure whether it's harmful or a significant risk and b) being pretty sure no one would bother telling us if it were.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:49 AM on August 23 [2 favorites]

Oh, wait, are you asking, 'why do you need to drink so much water'?

I don't know. I drink a lot of water.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:51 AM on August 23 [2 favorites]

Most people I know who have the bottles keep them in their bag and refill them from water fountains, coolers, etc

What kind of plastic are those water coolers made from? I drink from one of those things all damn day at work.
posted by orme at 11:52 AM on August 23

What kind of plastic are those water coolers made from?

...and what are the hoses inside them made of? ...and what are the hoses and components of the purification system the water was processed in made of?
posted by hippybear at 11:54 AM on August 23 [1 favorite]

Oh, wait, are you asking, 'why do you need to drink so much water'?

Recommended: Eight 8 ounce glasses (64 ounces) of water per day. More if you are exercising or in hot weather.

Scientific American: 'Fact or Fiction? You Must Drink 8 Glasses of Water Daily.'
posted by ericb at 11:56 AM on August 23

No, I know the recommendation that everybody's chronically dehydrated is crap. I like drinking a lot of water. I run in the mornings and am thirsty all day at work, plus I used to smoke and I need the replacement for my oral fixation. It's not a check box on my great 'be healthy' to do list or anything.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:04 PM on August 23 [1 favorite]

ericb, from that article you linked to "There's no denying that water is good for you, but does everyone really need to drink 64 ounces or more every day? According to Heinz Valtin, a retired professor of physiology from Dartmouth Medical School who specialized in kidney research and spent 45 years studying the biological system that keeps the water in our bodies in balance, the answer is no."
posted by Infinite Jest at 12:07 PM on August 23

...does everyone really need to drink 64 ounces or more every day?...the answer is no...

Hence the reason I linked to the article.
posted by ericb at 12:09 PM on August 23

My recommendation: wine and beer! 64 ounces or more per day!
posted by ericb at 12:09 PM on August 23 [2 favorites]

Conveniently, the Klean Kanteen comes in a 40-ounce size.
posted by box at 12:13 PM on August 23

There is a leading brand of water bottles? Knowing that there is a such thing as a leading brand of water bottles is harmful in itself as it causes despair and contempt.
posted by Free word order! at 12:16 PM on August 23

BTW -- in colonial America beer and cider were preferred over water.

"Beer usually replaced water as the daily drink. An early morning tankard of beer was typical in colonial America, even for children. This tradition...came from England. The Pilgrims loaded more beer than water on the Mayflower. And, there is some evidence that they were put off at Plymouth, rather than Virginia, because the ship's crew wished to make sure they had enough beer to consume on the return voyage."

posted by ericb at 12:16 PM on August 23

Knowing that there is a such thing as a leading brand of water bottles is harmful in itself as it causes despair and contempt.

You're probably going to want to avoid Everybody Loves Raymond.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:17 PM on August 23 [3 favorites]

in colonial America beer and cider were preferred over water.

I always assumed that was in part because it was less likely to cause dysentery. 'In part' because the stress and exhaustion of daily life was probably enough of a reason to prefer beer over water. (That's something I learned by having a baby.)
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:20 PM on August 23

The problem you run into Lucasks is that anything you put water into is going to be made from, well, chemicals. You can go with glass and be pretty safe (except for the potential of arterial bleeding when it gets broken) or stainless steel (which probably doesn't leach enough chromium or selenium to meet your daily needs for those elements much less harm you). We'll just ignore the industrial waste generated in the processes to make those. Personally, I like stainless steel for its durability alone, but it's going to be heavy and expensive relative to plastic.

On the other hand, look at your example - how much lead do you think is on your neighbors house? How fast does it run off? How much lead do plants actually pull out of the soil? OK, now how many anthrax bacillus per cubic foot of dirt in your average back yard?
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:31 PM on August 23

> Not true, since some foods are more carcinogenic raw

I said the only way to remove the increased risk caused by cooking food is not to cook it. This is without a doubt true, and any other ancillary issues are important in their own right, but do not negate the verity of that assertion.

Pedantic, perhaps. But being told I am wrong when I am not brings out the pedant in me.
posted by Antidisestablishmentarianist at 12:42 PM on August 23

I don't know if everyone's chronically dehydrated, but I do find that I often mistake being thirsty with the sensation of wanting to eat something. So having water on hand helps me scratch the itch more effectively and not immediately reach for a snack. I also have very low blood pressure, and it gets worse if I'm not drinking a lot of water.

The problem you run into Lucasks is that anything you put water into is going to be made from, well, chemicals. You can go with glass and be pretty safe (except for the potential of arterial bleeding when it gets broken) or stainless steel (which probably doesn't leach enough chromium or selenium to meet your daily needs for those elements much less harm you). We'll just ignore the industrial waste generated in the processes to make those. Personally, I like stainless steel for its durability alone, but it's going to be heavy and expensive relative to plastic.

Yes. I think taking steps to alleviate your exposure to or ingestion of potentially harmful chemicals does end up begging the question, since exposure to potentially harmful chemicals is nearly impossible to avoid if you live in a city, depend on water mains, use objects that are made of anything other than organically grown hemp. And I think sometimes those of us who are concerned about these issues can mistake the forest for the trees (visualize SUV pulling out of the Whole Foods parking lot). But in the end, all you can do is try to do what you can.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 12:42 PM on August 23

it's nice to not to have to walk out to the water fountain every time you'd like a sip,

This is what I don't understand - a consumer product to prevent you from walking a few steps when you need to have a drink - to always have water when you have a whim to drink.

I have a very nice looking glass in front of me now. It cost me less than $1. It'll probably last me for years. It won't leech anything into anything.

I go somewhere and inevitably when I get there is some way to drink without bottled water. Astonishingly, sometimes I get thirsty in transit. Now, unless I'm doing something like hiking or working in the sun, I actually find it's OK to be thirsty for a few minutes.

When I'm working, I (try to) just work. At a certain point, I take a break and do things like have a glass of water. This is more than enough - if I had a full glass of water every time I took a break from some task, I'd burst.

People see these nice looking bottles, then they rationalize that they need them and come up with uses for them.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 12:43 PM on August 23 [3 favorites]

I want a glass bottle with a silicone case/holder thingy.
posted by kathrineg at 12:55 PM on August 23

People see these nice looking bottles, then they rationalize that they need them and come up with uses for them

Oh, I don't know about that. At work, I just use a regular glass I brought from home and trek on over to the 'water filtration station' a few hundred times a day.

At home, we have a stainless steel thing to carry water around, but it's for hikes to transport water for the baby or our dog. There's a place we like to hike at without a single stream. I don't carry the thingy around during normal days, because in fact I do just wait until I get home to have some water.

But I brought the glass to work specifically out of BPA angst, and the knowledge that I drink water more than kind of anyone I know.

(No, I don't have diabetes.)
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:57 PM on August 23

I go somewhere and inevitably when I get there is some way to drink without bottled water. Astonishingly, sometimes I get thirsty in transit. Now, unless I'm doing something like hiking or working in the sun, I actually find it's OK to be thirsty for a few minutes.

When I'm working, I (try to) just work. At a certain point, I take a break and do things like have a glass of water. This is more than enough - if I had a full glass of water every time I took a break from some task, I'd burst.

People see these nice looking bottles, then they rationalize that they need them and come up with uses for them.

Do you have a television? A car? A wristwatch? Dishwasher-safe pans? A comprehensive data plan on your cell phone? Those are all things I don't own because I don't feel the need to have them, yet I can understand why other people do. This thread is naturally of interest and relevance to those of us who have a reason to own a water bottle.

And I personally think the "nice looking" bottles are ugly. I don't care; that's not why I bought one.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 1:02 PM on August 23

I think the reason there is a "look at the hypersensitive water freaks getting their panties in a twist" crowd out there is the insanely mixed levels of paranoia that people tend to display about such things. Bruce Schneier talks about our inability to estimate risks pretty regularly. I mean look at those little stickers they apparently but on everything in California. If your system won't help me differentiate between things people eat, on purpose, every day and ethidium bromide it's not going to help me identify real dangers.

Sticking just to chemical paranoia, here are some examples out of my life - I'm a biochemist 9 to 5 and I do some art like things as a hobby and so deal with chemicals a lot of people don't, but still:

The bottle of Sodium Chloride in my lab has the big black X of DANGER and warns me Target Organ: Heart, Circulatory. Yeah, my doctor says I should reduce the amount of salt in my diet too.

I have been given dire warnings that my handling of galvanized wire was going to cause me to absorb so much zinc I'd develop zinc poisoning. I'm not sure how much zinc you can absorb through your fingers but I'm betting you'd be hard pressed to get your US RDA that way.

Similarly, I've encountered a person who didn't want to use any casting metal with lead in it, but cadmium was within their comfort zone.

The one that just stunned me, though, was a guy who didn't want to use commercial boiled linseed oil because it might contain cobalt (which is another thing you need some off, but not so much as the zinc so some level of caution MIGHT be appropriate). His plan was to get raw linseed oil from the health food store and boil it himself. (Hint: Linseed oil is the oil that gave oily rags a bad name! It's not super-flammable at room temperature but if you plan to heat it up to 300 degrees or so without some pretty impressive industrial equipment, I'm kind of thinking a visit to the dentist is in order - that way they have current records to look at when it's time to ID the body.)

Sure there are plenty of chemicals out there you don't need to be exposed to, but for whatever reason we're perfectly happy to smoke, drive while texting, don't have GFCI outlets where we should and can't be bothered to take our blood pressure medication AFTER having a heart attack. But then we get all bent out of shape when a bottle was made using a plasticizer that's linked to negative health effects.

It's be funnier if weren't for the fact that the things we don't get very upset about didn't keep people like Coldchef busy, but you can't have everything.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 1:05 PM on August 23 [21 favorites]

I said the only way to remove the increased risk caused by cooking food is not to cook it. This is without a doubt true, and any other ancillary issues are important in their own right, but do not negate the verity of that assertion.

You did not say that, you said that the only way to eliminate "this threat," which in a conversation about ingesting carcinogens I took to mean, well, the threat of ingesting carcinogens. I see now that this was ambiguous, and you could in fact have meant the threat of ingesting carcinogens due to cooking. I am glad you pointed this out, since your response provides an excellent example of how people deal with risk poorly in many areas, fixating on the increase or decrease of risk due to one aspect of a decision, but ignoring the other aspects (sometimes for risk of the very same result) or the relative risk compared to other decisions they make daily.
posted by grouse at 1:05 PM on August 23 [1 favorite]

So, we're going to toss ours. Are the nasty ones recyclable?
posted by jeffamaphone at 1:14 PM on August 23

I'm also one of those people who find it abhorrent when I see someone walking in public and eating.

Boy, ericb, you must really hate Benjamin Franklin.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:22 PM on August 23

People see these nice looking bottles, then they rationalize that they need them and come up with uses for them

I promise you, filling up a SIGG with a few beers and drinking in public during the summer (and, uh, Fall/Winter/Spring) is not a rationalized use. If there's a better/more convenient way to do this that won't get me fined, I'm all ears.
posted by NolanRyanHatesMatches at 1:32 PM on August 23 [3 favorites]

ericb, look at it this way: so you don't understand the need for people to have water with them, that's cool. But those who DO have water with them - wouldn't you rather they be conscientious consumers? Isn't a person who chooses to use a metal bottle over and over again potentially making a smaller environmental impact than someone who goes through a case of plastic water bottles every two weeks? Maybe the need to carry water everywhere seems foolish, but better to be conscientious fools than just plain ones.
posted by mdaugherty82 at 1:35 PM on August 23

You know I tried biking to class with a glass of water in my backpack instead of a water bottle and somehow my laptop and notebooks all got wet.

But at least they were BPA free....

I don't know if anyone has done tests, but I suspect that your laptop has never been BPA free.

^{Of course, nobody sane would use a laptop for water storage.}
posted by ymgve at 1:36 PM on August 23

jeffamaphone: So, we're going to toss ours. Are the nasty ones recyclable?

It's aluminum, so it should be as recyclable as any other aluminum can.

I emailed [e-mail] to inquire, if I get a reply I'll let you guys know.
posted by paisley henosis at 1:37 PM on August 23

Why, for the love of god, can't I find something to put water into for my kids that doesn't leach chemicals!? Back when everyone talked about Nalgeen and the crap in most baby bottles we got our son a Sigg sippy cup. Now, I did read the article and I know it shows that SIGG didn't have detectable levels, but come the fuck on. It shouldn't be this hard.

I have two Kleen Kanteen water bottles. Good quality stainless steel, and no liner.
posted by krinklyfig at 1:41 PM on August 23

Oh, Kleen Kanteen does make a sippy cup.
posted by krinklyfig at 1:43 PM on August 23

I just bought my kid a nice Camelbak bottle...BPA free!
posted by Biblio at 1:47 PM on August 23

The amount of BPA that leaches from polycarbonate (and perhaps Sigg liners) might not be much if you don't scrub the shit out of it

At first, these discoveries emerged by accident, when test tubes and petri dishes in laboratories were switched from glass to plastic. A group of Stanford researchers in 1993 found that breast-cancer cells it was studying reacted with a mysterious estrogen, which it traced to polycarbonate lab flasks. A few years later, Patricia Hunt, a geneticist at Case Western Reserve University, discovered abnormalities in the chromosomes of her lab mice. She eventually concluded that damaged polycarbonate cages were at fault.

This article says "damaged" but the story I heard is that they had a new lab assistant that (depending on the source) either 1) used an alkaline cleaner or 2) scrubbed the cages harder than the previous assistant had.

Still better to not have the crap next to your water in the first place.

I like my stainless steel bottle, but my wife doesn't like the taste, so I'm going to get her a neu-Sigg to re-encourage her to break the bottled water habit. It's too bad she doesn't like the taste though because it's our 11th (steel) anniversary and we already have a stainless steel kitchen, expresso maker, mixing bowls and fasteners in the skate ramp. I guess I'll get her a mustache necklace on a stainless steel chain.
posted by morganw at 1:47 PM on August 23 [1 favorite]

I promise you, filling up a SIGG with a few beers and drinking in public during the summer (and, uh, Fall/Winter/Spring) is not a rationalized use. If there's a better/more convenient way to do this that won't get me fined, I'm all ears.

Follow these basic instructions, carry it rolled up tight in your pocket with a rubber band around it, and it will conform and cling to your beer without any further fasteners. It's pretty basic and simple, and works like a charm.
posted by hippybear at 1:49 PM on August 23 [2 favorites]

When I'm working, I (try to) just work. At a certain point, I take a break and do things like have a glass of water. This is more than enough - if I had a full glass of water every time I took a break from some task, I'd burst.

That's nice for you. I have to drive to clients, sometimes over an hour away, and sometimes I'm on the road all day. I keep meaning to get around to it, but there is something wrong with the faucet in the sink in my car. Plus, I can't seem to find a long enough hose to hook me up to the well. So, for the moment I make due and carry water with me in a stainless steel bottle. It is a hassle, though. Something wrong with the dishwasher, too.
posted by krinklyfig at 1:51 PM on August 23 [1 favorite]

Debating How Much Weed Killer Is Safe in Your Water Glass
posted by homunculus at 2:01 PM on August 23 [1 favorite]

Heh hippybear, pretty much all of my favorite beers are bottled (and the SIGG container makes it easy to travel with and keep cold), but I think I'll try that can method out today just for the fun of it. Thanks!
posted by NolanRyanHatesMatches at 2:06 PM on August 23

Personally, I like to drink very cold water, and I can't leave my classroom whenever I want to to get a drink... 20 first graders are not very good at self-monitoring... so I use a stainless steel thermos and fill it with cold water and two ice cubes. Stays cold all day.
posted by Huck500 at 2:08 PM on August 23

Am I seriously being asked to justify the fact that I like to drink water conveniently throughout the day?

I guess I should just be glad there are people here that are willing to show those of us the Light and how to live properly.
posted by miss tea at 2:22 PM on August 23 [2 favorites]

hm, so from this post, i'm guessing no one lets their kids drink out of the hose anymore?
posted by fuzzypantalones at 2:42 PM on August 23 [1 favorite]

> I promise you, filling up a SIGG with a few beers and drinking in public during the summer (and, uh, Fall/Winter/Spring) is not a rationalized use. If there's a better/more convenient way to do this that won't get me fined, I'm all ears.

I just bought a Klean Kanteen growler to do just this. And you can save on the glass bottles, as you can just have your local brewpub fill it for you. I suggest nothing under 8% however, but thats just a personal preference.
posted by mrzarquon at 3:11 PM on August 23

BPA in plastic containers was a big source of conflict between me and my wife. She refused to use my trusty old Nalgene bottle, and in fact bought me a new one and insisted I use it.

I pointed out to her that BPA is also in the water pipes that bring the water from the main line into our house and up to our faucet, not to mention in the Brita water filter that she obsessively uses. She ignores me.

Basically, unless you're collecting rainwater with a stainless-steel container, it's unavoidable. I've got other things to worry about.
posted by math at 3:15 PM on August 23 [5 favorites]

I was just about to make the same point about plastic pipes. It seems like if you filter your water at home, you'll likely get very clean, very safe water, but it won't be free of every industrial chemical imaginable.
posted by delmoi at 3:24 PM on August 23

forget Kleen Bottles, I go for the zero volume Klein Bottles, but then I'm partial to one sided surfaces.
posted by el io at 3:32 PM on August 23 [1 favorite]

Isn't a person who chooses to use a metal bottle over and over again potentially making a smaller environmental impact than someone who goes through a case of plastic water bottles every two weeks?

Yep.
posted by ericb at 3:32 PM on August 23

I drink hot, black coffee from a plastic travel mug and I ain't not never noticed no proglms with my head thinker dealy.

Y'all are a bunch of wusses.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:03 PM on August 23 [2 favorites]

Is there any problem with filling a SIGG or SIGG-similar bottle with Crystal Light or iced tea (beyond ingesting whatever chemicals, sweeteners, etc., are present in the Crystal Light)?
posted by Morrigan at 5:15 PM on August 23

proglms
posted by exlotuseater at 5:24 PM on August 23

it's nice to not to have to walk out to the water fountain every time you'd like a sip,

This is what I don't understand - a consumer product to prevent you from walking a few steps when you need to have a drink
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 3:43 PM on August 23

At my current workplace, we have those windows that don't open, recycled air, and the air is very dry. I go through about six to eight cups of water a day. The closest water to my office is clear across the other side of the building, about a five minute walk. I don't mind the walk, but my employer would probably prefer I spend that half hour working.

(I don't actually use plastic bottles and don't have a dog in this fight, but the idea that I should have to justify wanting a convenient source of drinking water is pretty weird.)
posted by joannemerriam at 5:41 PM on August 23

Is this where I come to judge your method of procuring, transporting, storing, and consuming water?
posted by kathrineg at 5:45 PM on August 23 [3 favorites]

I love my KleenKanteen, mostly due to personal preference (I like the way water tastes from it). I actually thought that the BPA issue with SIGGs was well-known. I know I was steered away from them nearly a year ago.

But you know, as someone who has gone through several water bottles (I had a nalgene knock-off before my KleenKanteen), I am waiting for someone to tell me stainless steel is bad for me. Which may happen. I personally feel like it's OK just trying to keep up. It's kind of at the point where everything will kill you eventually, and really, you just do what you can.

(And I say that as someone who's mostly vegan and eats organic as much as she can.)
posted by darksong at 5:55 PM on August 23

posted by A Terrible Llama Oh, wait, are you asking, 'why do you need to drink so much water'? I don't know. I drink a lot of water.

You drink a lot of water? Well, there's a tap for that.
posted by mattdidthat at 6:15 PM on August 23 [3 favorites]

"Cooking itself releases carcinogens, regardless of vessel. A raw food diet is the only safe way to remove this threat. Boycott heat!"

Course then you run the risk of e.coli and other nasties killed by cooking getting you. I'm starting to feel a Joshua moment coming on.

"At least in my case (and I don't think I'm alone) I drink out of my Sigg constantly -- probably sucking up at least three bottles a day. Most people I know who have the bottles keep them in their bag and refill them from water fountains, coolers, etc. to have an alternative to bottled water, so my guess is that many people who use the bottles regularly are drinking more than a bottle's worth. So the 'real issue' is more than just honesty."

The more often you refill your bottle the less time the water has to leech BPA from the bottle there by reducing your exposure. IE: it's not like you pour in the water and *boom* 2ppm BPA. Now if you had 24 bottles that you kept filled and drank them in rotation at a rate of three a day you would increase your risk.

"When I'm thirsty I grab a glass, turn on the tap, fill to the brim ... and then I drink. "Why the need for a fucking plastic/metal bottle? Maybe if I'm traversing the Sahara it would make sense. But, in modern day settings -- WTF?"

The job I'm in right now I'm routinely an hour away from potable water.

"I mean look at those little stickers they apparently but on everything in California. If your system won't help me differentiate between things people eat, on purpose, every day and ethidium bromide it's not going to help me identify real dangers."

The copper water pipes I installed in my new shop had those stickers.
posted by Mitheral at 6:31 PM on August 23

I don't know a SIGGS from a hole in the ground, but I do know that my wife and I switched to all-glass containers for food storage recently. Whether it will reduce the toxins that get into us or not I don't know, but it seemed prudent, and it fit well with my wood-stone-steel-and-glass 'philosophy' about homes and home furnishings.

I do not carry water bottles with me, but here in Korea, I do avoid drinking unfiltered tap water.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:02 PM on August 23

So, yeah, I spent a weekend driving all over creation tracking down the larger size Siggs for cycling purposes for me and my pregnant wife, so I feel pretty fucking furious about this.

After that comes the drama of how ridiculously hard it is to buy baby formula in BPA-free packaging. Oh, and don't forget that you can't reconstitute powdered formula with fluoridated tap water because of fluorosis, so unless you've got a reverse osmosis water filter built without any BPA components (think three or four figure prices, per) you're SOL again.

Right now it's the baby food. Earth's Best organic baby food in glass jars? It's got BPA in the food side of the lid. As does every other brand of glass-jar baby food I've been able to find.

What a mess.
posted by NortonDC at 7:22 PM on August 23

NortonDC, I'm sorry to hear that. Check out child-led weaning. They don't use specialized baby food, but introduce appropriate table foods instead. They might have some tips for feeding your child without using jarred food, even if you don't buy into their philosophy 100%.
posted by kathrineg at 7:29 PM on August 23

NortonDC, you can try to get a baby food grinder and make your own mushy peas and carrots.
posted by kuatto at 8:17 PM on August 23

Wouldn't even just a morter & pestle allow someone to do the same thing without having to purchase the expensive baby gadget?
posted by hippybear at 8:18 PM on August 23

Or a garden variety blender.
posted by Mitheral at 9:12 PM on August 23

There are also feeders that are mesh and you can put fruit or other soft foods in the and the baby basically eats it through the mesh so no big parts get into baby's mouth.

It's a bit of a lost art.
posted by kathrineg at 9:42 PM on August 23

The more often you refill your bottle the less time the water has to leech BPA from the bottle there by reducing your exposure.

Wait, what? The BPA leaches into the water at a constant rate. It doesn't matter if you let one bottle full of water sit for 24 hours and then drink it or drink one bottlefull over 8 hours, the BPA exposure should be the same. The concentration of BPA in the 3 bottles will be less but that doesn't matter, only the total exposure matters.
posted by Justinian at 9:45 PM on August 23

I never bought SIGG as I remember them, they were made from Al. And to prevent Al from pitting, you coat it. Its why the old Al drinking cans were much heavier - they lacked a plastic liner. Now with the cans having a liner they are thinner.

Ever ponder why the 'tin cans' today last longer and are lighter weight? Yup - plastic inside coating.

Stainless steel - now they have that from China in the sub $10 range.

Earth's Best organic baby food in glass jars? It's got BPA in the food side of the lid.

Consider that even the home canning lids from kerr/ball have a plastic coating......you are not going to avoid Plastic unless you spend a whole lotta money (Lehmans.com $20 a jar small_Mouth_European_Glass_Canning_Juice_Jars) there is going to be some plastic in touch with preserved food.

I switched to all-glass containers for food storage

When you find some of your old plastic stuff, take 2 seperate food items that you really don't want anyway and store 'em in the fridge in the old plastic and the glass and note what goes bad 1st.



Oh and that vinyl siding you are (or have) put on the side of your home? If you wouldn't put the plastic in you mouth - why ya willing to put it outside where the rain washes it into the environment?
posted by rough ashlar at 9:45 PM on August 23

Er, I messed that up: I meant it doesn't matter if you drink one bottle after 24 hours or three bottles each after 8 hours. Whatever. You know what I mean.
posted by Justinian at 9:47 PM on August 23

You guys do know that only certain types of plastic have BPA, don't you?
posted by dirigibleman at 10:12 PM on August 23

When you find some of your old plastic stuff, take 2 seperate food items that you really don't want anyway and store 'em in the fridge in the old plastic and the glass and note what goes bad 1st.

Why on earth would I want to do that? The fridge is full of Korean food, all preserved, a million varieties of kimchi, more or less. It sits in there for literally a year or two without going bad, most of it. We still have some of the old plastic stuff -- there is literally no discernable difference in terms of things lasting longer.

I'm curious why you suggest there might be. An airtight seal is an airtight seal.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:18 PM on August 23

given the good fortune to find you all in one place,
I'd just like to sincerely and respectfully request that when you find yourself in a seminar/screening/meeting etc.,
please open your canteen,
and leave the lid off until it's time to go back out on the trail.

chronic lid screwers/unscrewers are the slow velcro peelers of our age
posted by sloe at 10:32 PM on August 23 [1 favorite]

What a bunch of crybabies some of you are.

Seriously! Don't you know that corporations know what's best for you, even when they are withholding information?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:23 PM on August 23

The whole BPA business seems really overstated. Everything that I've read suggests that to get any significant exposure, you'd have to be heating or aggressively cleaning the container constantly — and this was in regards to the old Nalgene bottles (which I still use), not the Sigg ones which have less BPA in them anyway.

People are actually throwing them away over this?

I guess I can't complain; I got a bunch of nice Nalgenes for free after the last round of OMGBPA, so maybe this is my opportunity to get a few free Siggs. They do seem like they'd fit better on a bike.

Can we do Camelbaks next?
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:43 PM on August 23 [1 favorite]

I've never seen so many assholes in one thread. I guess that accounts for all the shitting going on in it.
posted by jabberjaw at 12:00 AM on August 24

Oh and that vinyl siding you are (or have) put on the side of your home?

Human toxicity and environmental impact are not always well correlated. Cyanide - bad for you, no big deal to the environment. Levels of phosphate that don't bother me at all - algae bloom hell for the Gulf of Mexico.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:38 AM on August 24 [1 favorite]

I have a theory about people who carry water bottles with them everywhere and throw a mini-tanty anytime somebody suggests that maybe they won't drop dead of dehydration without one. It has to do with breastfeeding, not getting enough of it, and turning into a needy, desperate, overcompensating whiner as a result.

But I won't bore you with the details.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 1:18 AM on August 24

I have a theory about people who carry water bottles with them everywhere and throw a mini-tanty anytime somebody suggests that maybe they won't drop dead of dehydration without one.

They might get less huffy if people spent less time mocking them or misconstruing their reasons for doing something perfectly reasonable.
posted by weston at 2:11 AM on August 24 [1 favorite]

Right now it's the baby food. Earth's Best organic baby food in glass jars? It's got BPA in the food side of the lid. As does every other brand of glass-jar baby food I've been able to find.

NortonDC, just as a data point we never bought baby food for ours -- when she got old enough to eat anything we gave her an apple to gnaw on, and then, some over-cooked pasta and tofu or overcooked veggies, and we've just added stuff as we went along. But the number of calories in one of those of little jars is pretty negligible. Mostly, they're getting a new experience and a social experience (eating with Mom and Dad) but nutritionally, they're firmly in the formula/breastmilk camp for their significant needs.

At least, that's what our doc told us. Anyway -- we never bought baby food. Is my story.

Re. whoever suggested I drink tap water, above, I don't drink tap water from where I work because it's freaking disgusting. I don't know if it's the pipes in our building, or what, but it smells weird. It smells like feet. I agree that drinking water should be perfect from the tap but the fact is that it isn't, in a lot of cases. Maybe it is where you are, and congratulations.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:20 AM on August 24

there is literally no discernable difference in terms of things lasting longer.

Really?

The fridge is full of Korean food, all preserved, a million varieties of kimchi, more or less. It sits in there for literally a year or two without going bad

Perhaps you are not a good source on the matter.

Link 1
Link 2
posted by rough ashlar at 3:45 AM on August 24 [1 favorite]

I promise you, filling up a SIGG with a few beers and drinking in public during the summer (and, uh, Fall/Winter/Spring) is not a rationalized use. If there's a better/more convenient way to do this that won't get me fined, I'm all ears.

holy shit on this day i am born again
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:51 AM on August 24 [2 favorites]

Oh, and don't forget that you can't reconstitute powdered formula with fluoridated tap water because of fluorosis

Small note here, as someone with mild fluorosis, the small white spots on my teeth are worth the reduced risk of cavities. So I'd thank the commies who snuck the fluoride into my water as a kid, personally.
posted by haveanicesummer at 6:30 AM on August 24

rough ashlar, what the fuck are you talking about? I honestly haven't got a clue what you're trying to say to me, or why.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:32 AM on August 24

BPA doesn't kill people

GRAR I KILL PEOPLE!!!
posted by Mister_A at 6:44 AM on August 24

"Wait, what? The BPA leaches into the water at a constant rate. It doesn't matter if you let one bottle full of water sit for 24 hours and then drink it or drink one bottlefull over 8 hours, the BPA exposure should be the same. The concentration of BPA in the 3 bottles will be less but that doesn't matter, only the total exposure matters."

Ya, that was my point. It doesn't really matter how much water you drink out of a bottle (one fill a day or three or six) your exposure to BPA is essentially the same as long as you aren't storing water in the bottle for a long time. This with the caveat that the BPA doesn't reach saturation in less than eight hours.

However there is a difference in your statement assuming the leech rate is steady over 24 hours. The bottle that was filled yesterday is going to have three times the level of BPA vs the bottle that was consumed over eight hours immediately after filling.
posted by Mitheral at 6:48 AM on August 24

Well, that Sigg returns email address was practically an instant success. Best customer service ever. Al I have to do is send in my old one, and they'll give me a code to use on their website for a new Sigg with free shipping. SWEET!
posted by unwordy at 6:50 AM on August 24

Sigg, 2008: "We are the only bottle with no detectable level of BPA! Buy our safe SIGG aluminum bottles to replace your SCARY BPA-laden Nalgenes!"

Sigg, 2009: "We have removed the undetectable, possibly not even present BPA in our old liner that we didn't mention until we'd pretty much sold all the aluminum bottles we were going to sell! Buy our new EXTRA-SUPER-SAFE bottles with the DIFFERENT-COLORED LINER to replace your SCARY old SIGG bottles!"

So, when they change the liner color again, will you all rush out and replace your bottles again?
posted by rusty at 7:28 AM on August 24

what the fuck are you talking about

1) food in plastic is reported to rot faster than in glass. Due to pre-existing bacterial load in older, used plastic. Best way to "determine" the "truth" for yourself is to do the experiment yourself as exampled by:

2) You claim such is bunk and offer up pre-rotted food that "lasts" for years. I correctly point out that if one is going to test if a food 'goes off' in plastic VS glass using already rotted food makes your 'no difference' a poor example.

3) Other food processing where bacteria "mistakes" are amplified in the final product points this out:
Scratched surfaces on plastic brewing equipment harbour bacteria. Old plastic is going to be scratched.

or why.

You did say
I'm curious why you suggest there might be
posted by rough ashlar at 8:37 AM on August 24

I have a theory about people who carry water bottles with them everywhere and throw a mini-tanty anytime somebody suggests that maybe they won't drop dead of dehydration without one.

Livejournal is really missing you right now
posted by kathrineg at 8:41 AM on August 24

First world problems.
posted by brand-gnu at 8:57 AM on August 24 [2 favorites]

OH MY GOD WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE.......oh, wait, no we're not. Carry on.

That said, I'm going to go have a look at my Sigg when I get home, for curiosity's sake.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:18 AM on August 24

Huh. I'm glad this thread came around if only to answer my nagging question about why people had been turning what looked like liquid fuel bottles into water haulers. Other than, you know, because you'd want to make some sort of statement with a container for earth's most prevalent fluid or something.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 11:20 AM on August 24 [1 favorite]

I am keeping the coinage "mini-tanty", thanks very much.
posted by everichon at 11:43 AM on August 24

two Kleen Kanteen water bottles. Good quality stainless steel, and no liner.

No liner means that if you put a Kleen Kanteen of cold water in your bag, the Kanteen will sweat condensation all over your papers, ruining said papers.

People see these nice looking bottles, then they rationalize that they need them and come up with uses for them.

How about "participate in a full-contact sport in a location where there is one drinking fountain for 40+ people"?
posted by Lucinda at 12:15 PM on August 24

Good to know I'm not the only one who sees those as MSR fuel bottles.
posted by rusty at 1:07 PM on August 24

Good to know I'm not the only one who sees those as MSR fuel bottles

Only some can hold alcohol. If one buys a BriteLyt lantern or their cooking stoves one could use the hi-proof booze for drinking OR cooking/lighting and even do that in more enclosed locations than one might use white gas/diesel.
posted by rough ashlar at 1:28 PM on August 24

There is something funny about this water bottle issue. kidcharlemagne more or less nailed it. The risk involved with this is waaay down there on the danger scale.

I would imagine that a bottle of wine has more carcinogens than gallons of plastic-bottled water.

So those who are concerned about it, have you stopped drinking alcohol?
posted by storybored at 1:36 PM on August 24

Do you imagine, or do you know?
posted by kathrineg at 1:38 PM on August 24 [1 favorite]

I would imagine that a bottle of wine has more carcinogens than gallons of plastic-bottled water.


If you're drinking as much wine as some people drink water, you're probably drunk too often to care about danger scales.
posted by orme at 1:50 PM on August 24

Red wine definitely exhibits mutagenic behavior in laboratory tests. However it also contains antioxidant compounds. Attempting to compare it directly to BPA may not yield a useful result due to the different supposed mechanisms of mutagenicity.
posted by grouse at 2:19 PM on August 24

Concern about BPA is largely due to its potential as an endocrine disruptor, not any direct carcinogenic effect.
posted by NortonDC at 2:52 PM on August 24

"And then I tried the drinking man's diet. I didn't lose any weight, but I really didn't care anymore." - Erma Bombeck
posted by hippybear at 2:58 PM on August 24

NortonDC: Yes, exactly.
posted by grouse at 2:59 PM on August 24

Rough ashlar, I still have no idea what you're talking about. My wife and I have switched to using glass containers in our fridge. I'm trying like hell to parse out what you're saying. We did not switch because glass is any better at preserving food, but because of chemical outgassing and stuff, particularly in low-quality Korean-made plastic containers.

I correctly point out that if one is going to test if a food 'goes off' in plastic VS glass using already rotted food makes your 'no difference' a poor example.

The long-term stored food in our fridge is not rotted, it's preserved, and I resent the implication for what it's worth. Kimchi and its cousins are commonly kept and aged, in the same way cheese or wine might be, for as long as years. Educate yourself.

I'm being honest here. I have no idea what you're on about: we use glass, having switched from plastic. This is what I said in my first comment in this thread. I added, after you directed difficult-to-understand comments at me, that there is no noticeable difference in the length of time things keep -- but then, most foodstuffs shouldn't be in the fridge long enough to notice, and preserved foods show no difference in length of viability in more than a decade of observation.

You seem to be arguing against me as if I claimed that my wife and I use plastic and am for some reason arguing that it's better. I'm not, we don't, and I didn't. Quite the opposite in fact.

So again: what the hell?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:05 PM on August 24 [1 favorite]

Concern about BPA is largely due to its potential as an endocrine disruptor, not any direct carcinogenic effect.

Yes, that's true. But what I'm saying is what's a little endocrine disruption compared to the big C?

The International Agency for Research on Cancer (Centre International de Recherche sur le Cancer) of the World Health Organization has classified alcohol as a Group 1 carcinogen.
posted by storybored at 8:13 PM on August 24

It's pretty rare for me to feed my infant booze, too. Do you have a point?
posted by NortonDC at 8:27 PM on August 24

Thalidomide was an anti-nausea medicine. It's safe to assume that women who casually took it in the sixties didn't expect to have babies with missing arms or legs that stopped at the knee.

Just pursuing a line of thought here but alcohol has caused orders of magnitude more birth defects than thalidomide. Thalidomide was evil and they took it off the market (until recently) and yet here's a nice little bottle of whiskey sitting on the store shelf with no warnings on it or anything....isn't this just a little weird?
posted by storybored at 8:29 PM on August 24

It's pretty rare for me to feed my infant booze, too. Do you have a point?

I was more talking about adults rather than kids.
posted by storybored at 8:31 PM on August 24

So then what do you have to contribute regarding my comments on shielding my infant from BPA? You're quoting me up there. What's it got to do with my efforts on her behalf?
posted by NortonDC at 8:34 PM on August 24

stavrosthewonderchicken, this does not directly relate to your kimchi discussion above, but I think it's interesting that bacteria isolated from kimchi appear to degrade BPA.
posted by grouse at 9:13 PM on August 24

Kimchi has powers beyond the mortal ken!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:22 PM on August 24 [1 favorite]

Kimchi: defeating vampires and Bisphenol-A for centuries.
posted by crataegus at 1:54 AM on August 25

yet here's a nice little bottle of whiskey sitting on the store shelf with no warnings on it or anything....isn't this just a little weird?

I had absolutely no idea that alcohol was classed as a carcinogen.

But in fairness, ham sandwiches are also on that list (God love you, Wikipedia), as is 'Chinese style smoked fish'.

But really, no, I never knew it was classed as a carcinogen at all; but I think I'm missing some pieces of data here because if alcohol functioned as much as a carcinogen as dioxin (which is also on that list) no one would drink it, instead of it being a part of human social and culinary life for thousands of years.

With regard to it causing birth defects -- it causes birth defects in significant amounts. There's no evidence that having a glass of wine when you're pregnant will cause your kid to grow a horn out of the middle of her head.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:07 AM on August 25

OK, they should have been up front, but if there is truly no BPA leaching under any testable circumstance, how much damage was actually done? They only claimed no leaching, so they were telling the truth, yes?

Kinda depends on what concentration they were testing for dontcha think? If, for example, something is toxic at levels of x parts per billion but they only test at the level of parts per million, then the results might not be so, um, useful.
posted by BlueMetal at 5:43 AM on August 25

Klean Kanteen: $17.95

Subzero: $3.99
Also sold for that price in the (Walgreens) stores, although the ones they have now look more like the KK ones.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:25 AM on August 25 [1 favorite]

But in fairness, ham sandwiches are also on that list

Hence their frequent indictment by grand juries.
posted by weston at 10:51 AM on August 25

I wish I had seen the Subzero before ordering a Botl this past week.
posted by crataegus at 11:34 AM on August 25

BPA industry fights back: Public relations blitz takes cue from tobacco companies' past tactics
posted by grouse at 12:46 PM on August 25

For any old-SIGG owning Canuckers...e-mailed the contact given above and got a response saying that if I call them and give my address, they'll send me a new one free. (Actually, the way they phrased it made it sound like they'd drive to my house, pick up the old one, and bring me the new one. That probably isn't what they meant but I sure would be impressed if they did.)

Oh, and kim chi is probably one of the greatest foods ever. Yummy!
posted by Go Banana at 3:06 PM on August 25

My local London drugs has a mix of the new and old liner SIGG bottles on sale right now. I'd be tempted to buy one of the old ones and write in for a replacement scoring two for the price of one if I hadn't just bought a stainless vacuum bottle.
posted by Mitheral at 4:54 PM on August 25

I noticed in reading the SIGG leaching report from 2007 that they found that raw aluminum bottles with no liner also leached BPA. Anyone know why that would be?
posted by Caviar at 1:39 PM on August 26

Just guessing but the plugs are plastic and the bottles may be spun with a BPA containing lubricant.
posted by Mitheral at 5:37 PM on August 26

I sent 'em an email address, printed a label and mailed 'em a bottle. Went to the post office today.
posted by box at 7:20 PM on August 26

Go Banana: For any old-SIGG owning Canuckers...e-mailed the contact given above and got a response saying that if I call them and give my address, they'll send me a new one free.

No joke? [e-mail] ? I emailed them 3 days ago and haven't heard jack, I'm a bit frustrated.
posted by paisley henosis at 7:31 PM on August 26

The long-term stored food in our fridge is not rotted, it's preserved,

The cabbage is rotted. Its new state you are dubbing kimchi. And its one of the best ways to get Vit C when you don't have citrus or tablets.

and I resent the implication for what it's worth. Kimchi and its cousins are commonly kept and aged, in the same way cheese or wine might be, for as long as years. Educate yourself.

Wine is rotted grape or other sugar containing juice.

Cheese - A little more complicated than a simple one line response. But molds and bacteria make sure the milk that cheese was is gone.

From associated content:

Does sauerkraut have a German heritage? Yes and no. The sauerkraut we have now that is fermented with salt is from Eastern Europe but the original sauerkraut is from China. It was called Kimchi or Kimchee. ...... The word sauerkraut means literally rotten cabbage.

Natto even looks like rot. Tempeh is moldy (mostly soy) beans.

Some forms of pickles are rotted cucumbers.

Fermentation is a controlled form of rot. The original material is broken down, changed.

Even bread is a 'rotted' product.

Educate yourself.

That's what I've attempted to do with you.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:31 PM on August 27

And so someone says this in this thread:

Yet another company is found out to have lied (via omission per the discussion) to its customers.

I find it interesting that rather than point this out more than a few posters took the position that the lie (via omission) was OK and instead (mocked? Attacked? attempted to explain why containing BPA was OK) the people who didn't want BPA bottles for whatever reason.

It'll be fun to point back to this thread with the BPA defenders and ask why they thought it was OK to lie in this instance but not when some other government/corporation/person does it to them/someone else/nation/customers.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:38 PM on August 27

and yet here's a nice little bottle of whiskey sitting on the store shelf with no warnings on it or anything

Perhaps you don't drink, live in a non-nanny state, or make your own booze.

But the bottle in my hand:

Government warning: 1 Accdoring to the surgeon general women should not drink during pregnancy because of the risk of birth defects 2 don't drink n drive/operate machines.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:43 PM on August 27

That's what I've attempted to do with you.

Rough ashlar, I really don't know what your problem with me is, and I still don't know what you've been talking about in your comments addressed to me so far in this thread, but I think I'm not going to bother responding any further beyond this. It's been a little like pointing at the sky to show that it is indeed blue, but the other person continues to say stuff like weasels painted the clouds to fool us and did you see the lastest episode of Fat City Roller Derby I'm hungry anyway there's no such thing as blue it's a government conspiracy. Not constructive to continue to engage.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:59 PM on August 27

I still don't know what you've been talking about in your comments addressed to me so far in this thread

That's understandable with English not being your strong point. Nor is science it seems.

From the 1913 Webster:

Rot - to become decomposed by a natural process.

Cabbage is decomposed by Lactobacillus (rot) into kimchi.
posted by rough ashlar at 10:31 PM on August 27

Also sold for that price in the (Walgreens) stores, although the ones they have now look more like the KK ones.

They are poorly made. The bottles are thin (I could easily crush one with my hand), and the lid doesn't seal very well or screw on easily, so it pretty much constantly leaks. I only found out about this after buying one, and in a few weeks I bought a Klean Kanteen bottle which has endured many miles and much abuse. I bought another bigger Klean Kanteen several months later and use both now, and they're reliable and durable. I still have the Subzero bottle but it just sits on a shelf.
posted by krinklyfig at 10:29 PM on August 28

They are poorly made. The bottles are thin (I could easily crush one with my hand), and the lid doesn't seal very well or screw on easily, so it pretty much constantly leaks.

The earlier version - the one that looked more like a MSA bottle, had a QA problem with the stoppers. You had to try them out n the store, and select one that threaded together well. I do that as a matter of course whenever I buy anything that threads together from a store, because I know how little error it takes to create a bad thread joint. The one I have doesn't leak at all, and I've been using it for months. As to your being able to crush it with your hand - I suppose you did that in anger, when it leaked. Otherwise, why would you do it?

The newer ones that look more like the KK bottle have a completely different neck and stopper. All the ones I looked at screwed together securely, and the two I bought do not leak. I haven't tried, and will not try to crush them. If one of them gets squashed somehow, I'm only out $4.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:20 AM on August 29

As to your being able to crush it with your hand - I suppose you did that in anger, when it leaked. Otherwise, why would you do it?

I didn't, but in handling it it became clear that I could. I flexed it in just a little to test it. Tried doing the same with the KK bottle and couldn't, and I've been happy with what I bought, because sometimes they get dropped and have held up remarkably well over a long period of everyday use/abuse.

Anyway, I live in a rural area, and we don't have a lot of stores here. We don't currently have a Walgreen's. I got the Subzero bottle on a road trip. The local health food store has KK bottles, so bought mine there. I'm really more concerned with durability than cost, and it was the best choice among what's here.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:38 PM on August 29

You had to try them out n the store, and select one that threaded together well. I do that as a matter of course whenever I buy anything that threads together from a store, because I know how little error it takes to create a bad thread joint.

I see this as a flaw on the part of the manufacturer. Caveat emptor, but most people aren't going to know this. Incidentally, KK's promotional lit makes a big deal about threads, too. It didn't seem to matter until I just needed the thing to work and last a long time, which is a simple enough task for a stainless steel bottle, but even in such a mundane item one can rely on good design over cost.

I've learned my lesson by trying to be cheap when I should have gone for quality, because, yeah, it's only $4 if you need a new bottle, but it's wasteful and you might have to buy the same item over and over. It doesn't matter for all things like this, but for things you need to depend on, sometimes it pays you more in the long run to pay more for quality. And quality doesn't always mean it's expensive. A hen laying eggs in your backyard will probably be better quality than most cheap store-bought, but yours will be even cheaper.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:56 PM on August 29

I see this as a flaw on the part of the manufacturer. ... It didn't seem to matter until I just needed the thing to work and last a long time, which is a simple enough task for a stainless steel bottle, but even in such a mundane item one can rely on good design over cost.

That's why I said Subzero had a QA problem. It isn't a design flaw; it's an execution flaw. The designer said "make a threaded joint with such-and-such diameter and thread pitch". There are established standards for such things, and parts made to those standards would result in a good fit and no leaks. Subzero's manufacturing arm failed to do that, and the result was that your bottle leaked. As I said, it doesn't take much error to make a lousy threaded joint - very slightly outside the tolerance in one direction on one part, and the other part barely within tolerance in the other direction, and you have a useless assembly.

As I said, they've changed the design, and the new threads are much better. Also, I just went and squeezed one of those new ones, and I couldn't get it to flex, even with both hands on its empty body. I'm not Lou Ferrigno, but I'm fairly strong. The old-design one is at work, so I can't choke the life out of it today.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:16 PM on August 29 [1 favorite]

Here I am at work, and the old-model Subzero bottle does flex when I squeeze it. I cannot crush it using both hands, though; it pops back when I let go. Stainless steel is tough stuff.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:49 AM on August 31