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Mary K. Greer Reads The Story In A Picture
August 24, 2009 10:41 AM   Subscribe

Introducing the blog of Tarot author Mary K. Greer. This week she posted a gentle takedown of Whoopi's psychic reading on The View. She recently initiated a discussion about the potentially exploitative practices of modern gypsy fortunetellers, based on a report by Al Jazeera. She's also begun posting examples of cartomancy in art and literature, including a wonderful interpretation of this unforgettable Gustave Doré painting (see the comments).
posted by hermitosis (61 comments total) 25 users marked this as a favorite

 
As a tarot author and spokesperson, it is incredibly irresponsible and unprofessional for her to spout such nonsense.

I think someone failed her saving throw vs. irony.
posted by gurple at 11:06 AM on August 24, 2009 [11 favorites]


MMMno, not quite. You don't have to believe in tarot to put forth an accurate history of it.
posted by boo_radley at 11:08 AM on August 24, 2009 [2 favorites]


I do find the cultural history of things like tarot cards to be interesting, and I suppose somebody could make the case that there is a historically consistent way to read them, and to just make up shit about tarot cards is to waste an opportunity to enjoy the richness of a longstanding cultural institution.

But it does sometimes come off as "how dare you insist on your nonsense instead of my nonsense?"
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:08 AM on August 24, 2009 [5 favorites]


Greer is referring to her not knowing the actual history of the cards, which is well documented. Of course, you read that line in order to get to the one you quoted, so I suppose you're just trolling.
posted by hermitosis at 11:09 AM on August 24, 2009 [6 favorites]


MMMno, not quite. You don't have to believe in tarot to put forth an accurate history of it.

Well, she does assert that "The reading probably contains some relevant information for Whoopi".
posted by gurple at 11:09 AM on August 24, 2009


I think it's funny that Sandy Anastasi's (I assume) stage name is a cross between a lost ancient culture and the East German thought police.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:12 AM on August 24, 2009


Obviously Greer believes in Tarot readings, but again, that's a separate issue from whether or not someone gives an accurate history of the Tarot cards.

Also, THE VIEW people. It's "The View". It doesn't need to make sense. It just needs to make noise.
posted by GuyZero at 11:14 AM on August 24, 2009 [2 favorites]


*lays out the 3 of Skeptics; predicts a poor future for this thread*
posted by DU at 11:20 AM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


Ah. I read "Whoopi's psychic reading on The View" as Whoopi performing readings on The View. For a moment, I thought she took her role in Ghost way too seriously.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 11:21 AM on August 24, 2009


Thank you, very much. I bought my Rider-Waite deck in 1986 and still love to look at the illustrations. Tarot fascinates me in that it's divination based on your ability to interpret works of art. There are standard meanings for each card, but you're divining a message not just from "Card X = this" but also from where the card is on the table. The World card in the position of things to come would mean something different than in the position of the atmosphere of the present tense, for example. And you don't just read the cards one by one like "Oh this happened this is happening and this is going to happen" - you have to take all the cards on the table as a whole. Looking at all the cards, what positions they're in and what symbols they contain brings a whole new story to the surface. It's like looking at a painting with constantly changing elements and scenery.

Divination in the Tarot sense could also be thought to have some half-baked Jungian ideas behind it - when I gave readings, I would show the reader every card in the deck, one by one, then turn the deck over, spread out the cards and say, "Pick the card that best represents your present situation" for example. My idea here was that each card had archetypes that spoke to people in a similar fashion. Showing the cards as quickly as I did and then spreading them out face down without shuffling would, I reckoned, give them enough time to register the archetypes in their mind and where in the deck they were placed, but not enough time to be able to consciously remember where in the deck they were. I figured this would make for a more accurate, more "scientific" Tarot reading than leaving things to chance.

Of course, readers would argue there's no such thing as chance, and looking back I think my premises were flawed, but it was a lot of fun. It's a great exercise for your visual cortex and your imagination.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:24 AM on August 24, 2009 [11 favorites]


I thought she took her role in Ghost way too seriously.

The Oscars did.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:25 AM on August 24, 2009 [2 favorites]


Is this a pot/kettle thing?

TAROTICA: Mary Greer & Cold Reading, part I and Cartofeminism.
posted by psyche7 at 11:33 AM on August 24, 2009 [3 favorites]


I have used Tarot for years, jeez decades, now. I don't attach any kind of woo-woo powers to my deck (The Cosmic Tribe Tarot, by Stevee Postman -- all the cards can be viewed at that website). Instead, I take a very Jungian approach to the readings, which would be that the human psyche, because of its structure and affinity for narrative, will create a narrative out of blank symbols when given the right framework. As a reader, my job is to help draw the narrative out of the cards, and allow the person receiving the reading to find the connections with their own life and situation. This practice, when performed properly, allows participants to "climb up out" of their life and sit on an imaginary hilltop and look down upon the layout of their situation and get new perspective. I've never seen it as a "tell the future" kind of tool. But with the right deck and a quality reading, there is a lot which can be gained from the exercise.
posted by hippybear at 11:35 AM on August 24, 2009 [10 favorites]


What a load of b******s.

Mary K. Greer is a revolutionary, breaking all the rules regarding methods of learning and using tarot cards. She has forty years tarot experience and, as an author and teacher, emphasizes personal insight and creativity. As a tarot reader, she works as a ‘midwife of the soul,’ using techniques that are interactive, transformational and empowering.

Better than working, eh?

What I dislike most about these kinds of fraudsters - and I include mediums (media?) and psychics firmly in this group - is the false hope they give to vulnerable people (while taking their cash).

Tarot - fascinating history, beautiful artwork, profound concepts.

Tarot readers - charlatans.

Right, off to my cold-reading class. Hang on, what's that Sam? I can see a man - does anyone here have a father with a vowel in his name?
posted by the_very_hungry_caterpillar at 11:36 AM on August 24, 2009 [8 favorites]


The Greer woman's site is interesting. I've been a very informal tarot card reader for a long time, just for myself and friends. I've never been that good at it but it is fun and can be a little spooky real. Fields Book Store in San Francisco has a great selection of tarot books and decks, the largest I've seen.

This is a nice find. Thanks.
posted by shoesietart at 11:36 AM on August 24, 2009


"The Oscars did."

ZING!
posted by klangklangston at 11:37 AM on August 24, 2009


Is this a pot/kettle thing?

TAROTICA: Mary Greer & Cold Reading, part I and Cartofeminism.
posted by psyche7 at 11:33 AM on August 24 [2 favorites +] [!]


who knew the world of tarot was so competitive, but GOOD GOD that tarotica site is an eyesore
posted by Think_Long at 11:47 AM on August 24, 2009


The tarotica link invokes Richard Dawkins. Can Godwin be far behind?
posted by DU at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2009


The tarotica link invokes Richard Dawkins. Can Godwin be far behind?

There's actually this super great Dawkins thread in MetaTalk that I feel like a number of people here would be much happier reading and posting to than this one, and it would be really kind of sweet if they'd just kinda go there right now.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:50 AM on August 24, 2009 [13 favorites]


My interest in Tarot is largely for literary references (Last Call, by Tim Powers, is filled with them) as well as my, uh, somewhat strange propensity to collect various paradigms and worldviews. When attempting to track down a reference, I contacted Ms. Greer; she was very thorough and prompt in her response.

She is a polite lady who seems to have some real depth in her chosen field, despite what you might think of it.
posted by adipocere at 11:50 AM on August 24, 2009 [2 favorites]


kittens, no use trying to prevent the skeptocalpyse
posted by Think_Long at 11:51 AM on August 24, 2009


Thanks for posting this, hermitosis! Greer's empathic, let-the-querent-discover-their-own-answers approach appeals to me. I particularly like the way she emphasizes questioning our assumptions about the Tarot, and using the symbolism as a tool for self-discovery in the Jungian sense (e.g. the "shadow self"). Her book 21 Ways to Read a Tarot Card is one of the best I've seen on the subject.
posted by velvet winter at 12:06 PM on August 24, 2009


I have dozens of tarot decks. Dozens. I adore them. Anytime I see a new deck, I'm almost always compelled to buy it. I love the interpretations that different artists have given them over the years. I love how some are fairly Jungian and almost neutral, like Rider-Waite, some of them are deliberately dark like the Thoth, some of them are ethereal and some of them are just weirder than others, like Dave McKean's.

What I find interesting is that if I have them out somewhere, people visiting will always gravitate to them. I've always found it interesting to see who picks which deck. The tarot speaks to something primal in people. There is a great cultural unconscious that wraps around the concept of divination, and the tools therein.
posted by dejah420 at 12:12 PM on August 24, 2009 [4 favorites]


I don't think Tarot has been the same since the Mirrodin and Darksteel blocks came out; it's pretty obvious WotC had all but given up on any sense of balance by that time, and were basically looking for more game breakers like the Major Arcana had once been.

Fortunes didn't get decided by who played better, but by who got his Skullclamps out earlier and could overwhelm the opponent with card advantage. The T2 meta started to be Clamp against Clamp and pretty much every deck had to either play it or be prepared to face it, if not both. The fact that it was an artifact and could go into any given deck, also catapulting underdeveloped Block control decks on top of the T2 forces just by adding 20 x/1 Creatures, made it even more ridiculous.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:22 PM on August 24, 2009 [18 favorites]


What dejah420 said.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 12:27 PM on August 24, 2009


8 bit tarot
posted by hortense at 12:30 PM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


She has forty years tarot experience and, as an author and teacher, emphasizes personal insight and creativity

As opposed to those tarot readers and authors who emphasize lack of insight and rote learning.

Charlatan angry at other charlatan. Movie at 11.
posted by damn dirty ape at 12:47 PM on August 24, 2009


I find that I get very good advice from tarot cards. The caveat being that they're not magic, but because the symbols are so ambigious I find they're good at listening to my own common sense. So if I ask about say, a guy I'm interested in, and the results seem very negative, it's telling me that I have a bad feeling about him that I'm not ready to admit to myself.
posted by Phalene at 12:50 PM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


As opposed to those tarot readers and authors who emphasize lack of insight and rote learning.

Actually, yeah, there are some readers who learn the Celtic Cross spread, get a book on what each card means and memorize the definitions. I realize you were being dismissive and sarcastic, but you were accidentally correct.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:54 PM on August 24, 2009 [4 favorites]


The deck someone made using J.J. Grandville illustrations is my favorite.
posted by mediareport at 12:57 PM on August 24, 2009 [2 favorites]


I still prefer the Giger deck, despite the jungian psych in the little booklet that comes with it.

Saying something isn't magic, and instead calling it "psychology" seems like a pretty weak distinction to me. You'd be hard pressed to find many modern occultists who don't embrace the psychological power of ritual or ceremonial magic of various kinds.
posted by ServSci at 2:18 PM on August 24, 2009


half-baked Jungian ideas

I am not sure, but I think this phrase may contain a redundancy.
posted by idiopath at 2:38 PM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


More seriously, since we seem to have a number of tarot experts in this thread:

What was Tarot before the 1950's Golden Dawn or OTO re-invention? (I am sketchy on the details but I had this impression that the Crowleyites were trying to introduce some sort of neopaganism that was to some degree a new invention, which included wicca and the ryder/waite version of the tarot, please do correct me if I am misguided about this).
posted by idiopath at 2:42 PM on August 24, 2009


What was Tarot before the 1950's Golden Dawn or OTO re-invention? (I am sketchy on the details but I had this impression that the Crowleyites were trying to introduce some sort of neopaganism that was to some degree a new invention, which included wicca and the ryder/waite version of the tarot, please do correct me if I am misguided about this).

While there've been a number of decks going back to the Middle Ages, there wasn't really any one "standard", but the Rider-Waite deck was first published in 1909. It was hugely popular. A. E. White and the illustrator, Pamela Smith, were in Golden Dawn.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:51 PM on August 24, 2009


But the Major Arcana and the four suits have been pretty much the same for centuries, albeit with minor variations (e.g., disks instead of pentacles).
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:59 PM on August 24, 2009


Wow. There's really hate for Jung in MetaFilter? That's a bit, um... surprising to me. What is that based on?
posted by hippybear at 3:03 PM on August 24, 2009


I am not sure, but I think this phrase may contain a redundancy.

Really? That's not what people seemed to think when I posted this AskMe a while back asking whether Jung's ideas were still considered relevant to today's theories about the mind.

What was Tarot before the 1950's Golden Dawn or OTO re-invention?

The Rider-Waite deck (or Waite-Smith, if you prefer as I do to give credit to its artist, Pamela Coleman Smith) predates Crowley's version, as Marisa has pointed out.

Coleman Smith's deck was the first to assign detailed tableaux for all the minor cards, a practice that's pretty standard now. There are many decks which have been preserved, even if only partially, from centuries ago, but due to the flimsy physical properties of paper, they are somewhat scarce. History suggests that the use of cards for games is inseparable from their use for divination. Basically, all games of chance share the same origin as divination.

When occultists began integrating the Tarot into their philosophies, the associations they projected onto them were presented as fact. Whether there is symbolic truth to those associations or not is subjective; from a historical perspective I think this was a disaster, because even hundreds of years later those same myths are still repeated and believed, obscuring the truth about the cards. People want them to be magical, for their origins to be either divine or "shrouded in mystery", but they aren't -- and they don't have to be in order to do what they do. As ever, we humans carry around all the magic we will ever need inside our own brains.
posted by hermitosis at 3:24 PM on August 24, 2009 [4 favorites]


hippybear: not so much hate for Jung as an observed pattern of talking about Jung with half-bakedness. Just because half baked ideas often go with talking about Jung doesn't mean all of Jung is half baked of course, any more than quantum mechanics is a bunch of hallucinogen inspired wackiness, I just notice a correlation is all.
posted by idiopath at 3:26 PM on August 24, 2009


What was Tarot before the 1950's 1910ish (ftfy) Golden Dawn or OTO re-invention?

Much less pretty. This is me going off the top of my head, with some of the history I picked up when I drew my deck last year feeling really faint - but if I recall correctly, the major innovation of the Smith-Waite deck (Rider was just the publisher) was having metaphorical illustrations on every card, not just the Major Arcana and the Courts. Beforehand, the number cards would typically have drawings of five cups or what have you, maybe with stuff around them but still very much just "five cups"; Smith's drawing shows a mopey guy on a riverbank with five cups on the ground by him, three of which are spilled. Having drawings on every card opened up the possibility of images connecting to each other in many unexpected ways, giving rise to the practice of "intuitive" readings, guided as much by how the images connect to each other and to the querent's life as by the memorized meaning of each card. (On the other hand a well-researched deck designed to be a Magickqhal Tool can also benefit from this effect - a little effort put into having consistent symbology for the arcane meanings goes a long way!)

And yeah, Crowley's writing about the Courts in the Harris/Crowley "Thoth" deck definitely brings in some neopagan symbolism.
posted by egypturnash at 3:31 PM on August 24, 2009 [2 favorites]


idiopath, if you'd like to see some samples of early decks and how they differ from the later occult-inspired decks, here are a few:

Marseilles Deck
Visconti Sforza Deck
An 1835 Milanese deck

Note how the Magician is a common street trickster instead of a ceremonial magicky type. That's usually one way to tell whether there was an occultist at the wheel when the deck was commissioned. While the Waite-Smith blurs that line -- it's very occult-y in some places, very classical in others.
posted by hermitosis at 3:34 PM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'd like to remind my fellow skeptics that we still live in a society so utterly ignorant and backward as to value a kind of literature called 'fiction', even though everything contained in such works is - quite openly - completely made up and false. As with Tarot, it is obvious to any rational mind that there can be no value in such drivel, but it is pointless trying to argue with people deluded enough to think the contrary. It is as if there is something missing from their brains. No doubt science will one day find an exact pharmaceutical solution to this problem.
posted by motty at 5:01 PM on August 24, 2009


I'd like to remind my fellow MeFites that there is a distinction readily and often made between "entertainment" and -- *beats strawman to death with dowsing rod*
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 5:08 PM on August 24, 2009 [2 favorites]


Indeed, Durn Bronzefist. Clearly, from the rational perspective, there can be no more to "fiction" (or other so-called art forms) but, as you so rightly point out, "entertainment". As I say, we await a pharmaceutical solution. Think of the increased productivity!
posted by motty at 5:16 PM on August 24, 2009


I've written a fair amount about Tarot history here including a survey of sequence development since the 15th century. Surprisingly, much of the basic iconography in the Rider-Waite and even Crowley's Art-Deco elaborations was there from the beginning (14-15th Century).

The problem with the Tarot is that it has never been understood as a visual key to the letters of the Hebrew alphabet, which in turn determine the astrological symbolism found in Tarot iconography. This is not a question of belief, but understanding the relationship of two systems -- Tarot, and classical astrology, found in its most refined form in the West in the Hebrew text of the ancient recensions of the Sepher Yetsira. If you bother to puzzle this out, you will find that seven tarot cards -- all the planetary symbols -- are mis-sequenced in conventional wisdom. If the Tarot is a language (in this case a set of 22 symbolic patterns) then having 1/3 of the letters in the right place might help with understanding.
posted by psyche7 at 5:19 PM on August 24, 2009 [2 favorites]


I have three decks but use the Thoth almost exclusively. I use it as a way to get into a right-brain mode of thinking rather than as a divination tool. I find that it's too easy to get bogged down in by-the-manual interpretations with the Rider-Waite and decks based on it. I also hate interpreting card reversals and find it much easier to get a good narrative going with the Thoth deck, which isn't so dependent on reverse meanings.
posted by echolalia67 at 5:37 PM on August 24, 2009


That's some interesting stuff, psyche7, although I always felt the sequence in the Major Arcana spoke clearly enough to me of the journey of actualization, even if it may be "out of order" in terms of correspondence with the planets. Still, some pretty neat parallels there.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:46 PM on August 24, 2009


I use it as a way to get into a right-brain mode of thinking rather than as a divination tool.

That's why I like the Secret Dakini deck, though I haven't learned tarot any more than in a rudimentary way. It's more a way to get a new viewpoint on a situation, as Phalene said, upthread.
posted by small_ruminant at 6:52 PM on August 24, 2009


Threads like this make me feel better about playing World of Warcraft.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:27 PM on August 24, 2009


Speaking of symbols and storytelling, did anyone else ever try to play Everway? It was a roleplaying game that Wizards Of The Coast put out about 15 years ago which didn't use dice, but instead used cards. It came with a set of, well, basically cards with artwork on it which were supposed to be used for character generation and adventure creation. Sort of "draw four of these cards and use them to tell the backstory of your character" sort of idea.

The interesting thing about the game was it also had a modified Major Arcana deck which was used by the GM to help resolve battles or decide story twists. It really relied a lot on the skill of the players to be able to take the symbols and find a way to use them intrinsically in the flow of the game. The way it could work might be, "you're battling the troll and ... (draws card) you remember when you trained with The Emperor, he taught you this strategy that helps you defeat your enemy" and such.

(Okay, that was a lame example, but you get the idea.)
posted by hippybear at 11:19 PM on August 24, 2009


I can't remember who it was that had the line about how Everway would have been the greatest roleplaying game ever invented if only every set came with Johnathan Tweet to run it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:56 PM on August 24, 2009 [1 favorite]


@psyche7: Everyone else has it wrong? No wonder Tarot readings don't work!
posted by Jimmy Havok at 2:38 AM on August 25, 2009


I get the impression that someone who wants to take Tarot seriously has a bit of a conundrum: either present them as magical or tools for your ESP or some other supernatural somesuch and exploit gullible clients, or present them as intuitive aids to right brained thinking and watch a majority of the client money go to the less scrupulous people who are doing "magic".

It seems like some practitioners of cartomancy (including the debunker in the post) are sitting in a gray area where they avoid saying anything that would be an outright claim that they do anything supernatural, and avoid saying anything that outright says they don't do anything supernatural, and let the client think what they want, so they can both get the gullible ones looking for magic and the open minded people looking for creative and intuitive insights (and yes, I know that many people think magic is about right brained intuitive insight and not necessarily supernatural, but I also suspect that this definition of magic may be market driven given the motives I mention above).

I had a friend once who worked as a phone psychic and she compared it to being an unlicensed therapist or a phone sex operator. She pretended she knew the future because that made the clients happy, and had all sorts of rationalizations about how she was pretty intuitive and so you could treat her guesses as a kind of insight, but the whole thing seemed really sleazy to me (more so than phone sex).
posted by idiopath at 8:27 AM on August 25, 2009


I get the impression that someone who wants to take Tarot modern economics seriously has a bit of a conundrum: either present them as magical scientific or tools for your ESP portfolio or some other supernatural investment somesuch and exploit gullible clients, or present them as intuitive aids to right brained thinking and watch a majority of the client money go to the less scrupulous people who are doing "magic economics".

Edited for truth.
posted by hippybear at 9:02 AM on August 25, 2009 [4 favorites]


All that silliness aside, idiopath, I think you've phrased it perfectly. As I already stated upthread, I don't place a lot of new age woo-woo belief in my tarot readings. In fact, when I do them for other people, I do my best to remain a blank narrator and help the other person weave their own life-narrative into the cards. The last thing I'd want to do is start telling someone that THIS happened, and THAT was an influence, etc. And I've never given readings for money (although I did trade them for some sweet hippie schwag at a Rainbow Gathering one summer). But out of any given gathering when I do readings (which take about 30-45 minutes each if I'm doing a full 10-card spread with deep analysis), there will be ONE person who just says to me "but what is my future?" or some similar question. Insisting that, despite them perhaps having watched me give readings for the past 3 hours, theirs is somehow going to be mysical and woo-woo.
posted by hippybear at 9:09 AM on August 25, 2009


Yeah, hippybear, there's something about August going into September where everybody in Washington gets all woo-woo-ed up. I don't know what it is. But that's what happens.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 9:48 AM on August 25, 2009


I for one am sweating my woo-woo off. That probably has something to do with it.
posted by Pollomacho at 10:09 AM on August 25, 2009


It seems like some practitioners of cartomancy (including the debunker in the post) are sitting in a gray area where they avoid saying anything that would be an outright claim that they do anything supernatural, and avoid saying anything that outright says they don't do anything supernatural, and let the client think what they want, so they can both get the gullible ones looking for magic and the open minded people looking for creative and intuitive insights (and yes, I know that many people think magic is about right brained intuitive insight and not necessarily supernatural, but I also suspect that this definition of magic may be market driven given the motives I mention above).

I'm not doing anything supernatural. I don't have a problem saying it. In fact, when I gave readings, I would explain my armchair-Jungian theories behind why I give readings the way I do. Moreover, I never charged a flat fee for a reading - I worked for tips, post-reading. "Donate whatever you think is worth what you got."

I realize that's outlier territory. But there you have it.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:10 AM on August 25, 2009


For the record, I do charge a flat rate for readings, but I donate the money to the literacy charity First Book.
posted by hermitosis at 11:08 AM on August 25, 2009


"I can't remember who it was that had the line about how Everway would have been the greatest roleplaying game ever invented if only every set came with Johnathan Tweet to run it."
"Jonathan Tweet, my former boss, stayed on. Peter had charged him with expanding the audience for role-playing games, and he was under pressure to deliver a substantial hit. To accomplish this, Jonathan conceived a marvelous new game called Everway, a genuinely radical, experimental work of group storytelling. The game would include a set of fantasy art trading cards the players used as inspiration -- sort of like Rorschach blots with better illustrations -- and instead of rolling dice, the game master would draw a card from a Tarot-like deck and adjudicate the action symbolically. It was such a departure from the mainstream, in fact, that it generated no small amount of controversy among employees. Some believed the project was doomed to find only a niche audience; as graphic designer Daniel Gelon said at the time, "It'd be a great game if we could pack Jonathan Tweet or John Tynes into every box to actually run it for people." But Peter supported the project 100 percent."
From Death to the Minotaur
posted by Tenuki at 1:42 PM on August 25, 2009 [2 favorites]


Thanks Tenuki, that's the one. Tynes has been one of my favorite people ever since I discovered Puppetland and Unknown Armies.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:44 PM on August 25, 2009


The last days of Aleister Crowley
posted by homunculus at 10:19 AM on August 27, 2009


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