In defense of the Police, he does have two arms
September 22, 2009 1:48 AM Subscribe
Tasers are increasingly used as a tool to enforce not compliance but mere civility.
In the latest occurence, a double amputee in a wheelchair was tasered, thrown to the ground, and left with his genitals exposed, in front of his neighbors.
This post was deleted for the following reason: MeFi does police brutalty stories poorly. lulzy headlines to not make for good discussions, neither do "fucking pigs" comments. -- jessamyn
The problem seems to me to be the attitude amongst certain US police. I mean, I wouldn't claim that British police are perfect and of course the odd very bad thing happens. But I'm pretty sure that if I was stopped by a UK police and gave him or her some smart talk, their first (and even second and third) response would be "Very funny, Sir" rather than 50,000 Volts. I wonder why this is?
posted by rhymer at 1:58 AM on September 22, 2009
posted by rhymer at 1:58 AM on September 22, 2009
rhymer, at least part of it is the severity of the consequences. The two pigs in question here are still on duty with full pay, while they await the bullshit "investigation" to clear their names once the media hubbub has died down.
posted by Dysk at 2:02 AM on September 22, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:02 AM on September 22, 2009 [4 favorites]
I'm starting to believe that Internal Affairs really doesn't have any purpose other than to get shot fifteen minutes into the movie.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:04 AM on September 22, 2009 [20 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:04 AM on September 22, 2009 [20 favorites]
Don't paint all cops with the same brush; some cops are pretty cool. It was a cop who showed me, when I was 16, how to make a decent pot-smoking pipe using some aluminum foil and a pencil. Of course, I do believe the coolcop-to-douchebagcop ratio is weighted heavily toward the douchebaggery side of things.
posted by jamstigator at 2:27 AM on September 22, 2009
posted by jamstigator at 2:27 AM on September 22, 2009
Some context:
I used to live and go to school in Merced.
Currently, Merced County is flirting with a nearly Great-Depression level of unemployment which is approaching 20%. [.pdf] Presumably, this doesn't even count the people who have stopped looking for work or those who are in jail.
I remember the economic situation when I lived there (about, what, 3 years ago now?) and how it put to pasture all the bullshit capitalist arguments about "pulling yourselves up by your bootstraps". There were simply no bootstraps to be had in that town. I think most Americans (thankfully, so far) simply don't understand what it's like to live in a place where the only jobs with growth potential are the police, prison guards and selling drugs.*
I'm not saying that being poor white cops makes them want to beat up poor black people, but merely that the kind of soul-crushing poverty these people live in will also eventually translate into moral and even spiritual poverty down the road. We give these people badges, guns and tasers, instill in them the necessity of violence and then put them in a situation where their next performance review means the difference between having a home and being homeless, with no other opportunities for employment.
It's a powder keg ready to go off and, if the economy doesn't get better, it's coming soon to a town near you.
*I worked on the loading dock of a big box retail store. I made $7/hr and usually worked about 4 to 10 hours a week. I was told by my friends that I was "lucky" that I had this job, because it meant that I had spending cash without resorting to selling weed or meth.
posted by Avenger at 2:28 AM on September 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
I used to live and go to school in Merced.
Currently, Merced County is flirting with a nearly Great-Depression level of unemployment which is approaching 20%. [.pdf] Presumably, this doesn't even count the people who have stopped looking for work or those who are in jail.
I remember the economic situation when I lived there (about, what, 3 years ago now?) and how it put to pasture all the bullshit capitalist arguments about "pulling yourselves up by your bootstraps". There were simply no bootstraps to be had in that town. I think most Americans (thankfully, so far) simply don't understand what it's like to live in a place where the only jobs with growth potential are the police, prison guards and selling drugs.*
I'm not saying that being poor white cops makes them want to beat up poor black people, but merely that the kind of soul-crushing poverty these people live in will also eventually translate into moral and even spiritual poverty down the road. We give these people badges, guns and tasers, instill in them the necessity of violence and then put them in a situation where their next performance review means the difference between having a home and being homeless, with no other opportunities for employment.
It's a powder keg ready to go off and, if the economy doesn't get better, it's coming soon to a town near you.
*I worked on the loading dock of a big box retail store. I made $7/hr and usually worked about 4 to 10 hours a week. I was told by my friends that I was "lucky" that I had this job, because it meant that I had spending cash without resorting to selling weed or meth.
posted by Avenger at 2:28 AM on September 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
What makes this even more notable is that Williams was co-operating with police, but arguing his case at the same juncture. When told to go back to his house, he did. That's above and beyond what can be legally expected of him.
jamstigator, I see no evidence of generalisations to all police in this thread (at least not yet). The ones in question are utterly reproachable, however, and past experience quite clearly shows that the consequences suffered by police who abuse their power (and weaponry) in a manner such as this are insignificant at best.
Avenger, that is some fairly shocking context, but as you rightly point out, it does in no way excuse the actions of the two uniforms in question. I'm also not sure how the "necessity of violence" becomes instilled as a matter of course in the situation you describe. Do police departments just not like poor people?
posted by Dysk at 2:37 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
jamstigator, I see no evidence of generalisations to all police in this thread (at least not yet). The ones in question are utterly reproachable, however, and past experience quite clearly shows that the consequences suffered by police who abuse their power (and weaponry) in a manner such as this are insignificant at best.
Avenger, that is some fairly shocking context, but as you rightly point out, it does in no way excuse the actions of the two uniforms in question. I'm also not sure how the "necessity of violence" becomes instilled as a matter of course in the situation you describe. Do police departments just not like poor people?
posted by Dysk at 2:37 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Let me just point out again, the problem isn't that "there are a few bad apples" out there, obviously in any large group of people, there are going to be some bad ones.
The problem is that the bad ones are backed up and supported by the system. The guy who was tasered was arrested and charged and kept in prison for six days. It's unlikely that these cops will lose their jobs. They're (are probably going to be) supported by the institutions in this town.
posted by delmoi at 2:42 AM on September 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
The problem is that the bad ones are backed up and supported by the system. The guy who was tasered was arrested and charged and kept in prison for six days. It's unlikely that these cops will lose their jobs. They're (are probably going to be) supported by the institutions in this town.
posted by delmoi at 2:42 AM on September 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
I wonder why this is?
In part, it's internal regulations.
posted by pracowity at 2:49 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
In part, it's internal regulations.
Most US police departments allow Tasers to be used at a level of threat well below that at which officers would be authorised to use lethal force; some even place them at the level of "hands-on" force or just above "verbal commands", the report said.Cops will minimize their own risk, effort, and annoyance by pretty much any means authorized. If you tell them it's OK to zap difficult people, they will do so.
"This is one American practice we definitely do not want to see replicated here in the UK," said Sprage. "We must never put dangerous electro-shock weapons like Tasers in the hands of anyone but highly trained specialist officers."
posted by pracowity at 2:49 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
the kind of soul-crushing poverty these people live in will also eventually translate into moral and even spiritual poverty down the road.
People live in soul-crushing poverty all over the world, and have done since time immemorial. The vast majority of them don't go around torturing people because their egos get bruised.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:55 AM on September 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
People live in soul-crushing poverty all over the world, and have done since time immemorial. The vast majority of them don't go around torturing people because their egos get bruised.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:55 AM on September 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
Brother Dysk - you're undoubtedly right. The other thing that amazes me about the US police is that investigations of incidents even when they seem very clear cut and should probably result in life behind bards, never, ever seem to go against the police.
All I'm saying is that I don't know why the US has or tolerates this relationship with its police.
posted by rhymer at 4:03 AM on September 22, 2009
All I'm saying is that I don't know why the US has or tolerates this relationship with its police.
posted by rhymer at 4:03 AM on September 22, 2009
Brother Dysk: Fucking pigs... Note that this does not apply to all officers of the law, merely the shits like the one in question.
... jamstigator, I see no evidence of generalisations to all police in this thread (at least not yet).
Oh, come the fuck on. Have some courage in your convictions. Either you believe the American policing institution is corrupt, or you don't; but don't think you can say 'fucking pigs' and then turn around and say 'I just mean the bad ones.' That sounds suspiciously like the bullshit line an old friend of mine used to give me every time I got up his nose for using a certain word that starts with 'n'. This is not to say that hating the police is the same thing as being a racist–far from it–but do you really think you could say 'fucking pigs' around these 'good cops' you're talking about and not offend them a little?
If you mean it, say it. Say 'police departments in this country are corrupt.' Don't fly off the handle with a stupid slur you're going to have to halfway take back in the next sentence.
posted by koeselitz at 4:08 AM on September 22, 2009
... jamstigator, I see no evidence of generalisations to all police in this thread (at least not yet).
Oh, come the fuck on. Have some courage in your convictions. Either you believe the American policing institution is corrupt, or you don't; but don't think you can say 'fucking pigs' and then turn around and say 'I just mean the bad ones.' That sounds suspiciously like the bullshit line an old friend of mine used to give me every time I got up his nose for using a certain word that starts with 'n'. This is not to say that hating the police is the same thing as being a racist–far from it–but do you really think you could say 'fucking pigs' around these 'good cops' you're talking about and not offend them a little?
If you mean it, say it. Say 'police departments in this country are corrupt.' Don't fly off the handle with a stupid slur you're going to have to halfway take back in the next sentence.
posted by koeselitz at 4:08 AM on September 22, 2009
rhymer: Brother Dysk - you're undoubtedly right. The other thing that amazes me about the US police is that investigations of incidents even when they seem very clear cut and should probably result in life behind bards, never, ever seem to go against the police.
Well, here in the US we seem to have some real difficulties trying to convince our police forces to play wright.
posted by koeselitz at 4:12 AM on September 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
Well, here in the US we seem to have some real difficulties trying to convince our police forces to play wright.
posted by koeselitz at 4:12 AM on September 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
The problem is that the bad ones are backed up and supported by the system.
And society. The police should be held in the same regard as, say, garbage trucks or the sewer system. They perform essentially the same function, after all. (And let me reduce the blowback on this comment about 10% by also saying that garbage trucks and septic systems should be held in higher regard than they are now.)
Police are not, just by virtue of wearing the uniform, OMGHeros *Salutes Flag*. A hero is a person who performs heroically, not a profession some individuals of which perform heroically.
posted by DU at 4:34 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
And society. The police should be held in the same regard as, say, garbage trucks or the sewer system. They perform essentially the same function, after all. (And let me reduce the blowback on this comment about 10% by also saying that garbage trucks and septic systems should be held in higher regard than they are now.)
Police are not, just by virtue of wearing the uniform, OMGHeros *Salutes Flag*. A hero is a person who performs heroically, not a profession some individuals of which perform heroically.
posted by DU at 4:34 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Police departments in this country are corrupt. All of them. Even the cops with the potential to be good are ruined by bullshit police culture. The "blue wall" is a cancer without a cure.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 4:40 AM on September 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Optimus Chyme at 4:40 AM on September 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
DU: Um, I don't think garbagemen or sewage workers willingly put themselves at risk of bodily harm in the same way as police or firemen do. ...which accounts for the difference in status.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:44 AM on September 22, 2009
posted by leotrotsky at 4:44 AM on September 22, 2009
"life behind bards"
"I sentence you to 5 years attending renaissance fairs." Talk about cruel and unusual.
posted by schwa at 4:52 AM on September 22, 2009 [5 favorites]
"I sentence you to 5 years attending renaissance fairs." Talk about cruel and unusual.
posted by schwa at 4:52 AM on September 22, 2009 [5 favorites]
Police departments in this country are corrupt. All of them. Even the cops with the potential to be good are ruined by bullshit police culture. The "blue wall" is a cancer without a cure.
I faved Optimus' comment. But I am giving a pass to Opie's dad and his dad's sidekick.
posted by notreally at 4:55 AM on September 22, 2009
I faved Optimus' comment. But I am giving a pass to Opie's dad and his dad's sidekick.
posted by notreally at 4:55 AM on September 22, 2009
Garbage and sewage workers run a lot of risk of infection. And don't let's forget boxers and pro-wrestlers, America's Forgotten Heroes.
posted by DU at 5:28 AM on September 22, 2009
posted by DU at 5:28 AM on September 22, 2009
I think I've told this story in the blue before, but it's relevant again...
I used to know a hero cop. Really. He had a picture of himself and two colleagues taken from a helicopter as they stood on the roof of a burning grain elevator working to evacuate injured employees. He worked as a cop for 12 years, much of that time in dangerous undercover assignments. I met him some years after he quit in disgust.
Having lived in sketchy neighborhoods and observed the uselessness of cops firsthand, I was a bit nervous when I learned he had been a cop. When he realized my reaction he put his hand on my shoulder and told me I was right to be suspicious.
The hero cop told me that if you meet a guy who's been a cop for more than five years, there is a ninety-five percent chance he's dirty. He said you get the do-gooders who want to save the world but most of them wash out. The basic work is hard, dangerous, often boring, and the pay sucks, so if you meet someone who's stuck with it for a decade you can be sure they're getting something else out of it, whether it's payola on the side or some kind of sick power trip.
His excuse? He was a very serious Christian and it took him longer than usual to get the memo about that whole saving the world thing not working out in the end.
posted by localroger at 5:29 AM on September 22, 2009 [8 favorites]
I used to know a hero cop. Really. He had a picture of himself and two colleagues taken from a helicopter as they stood on the roof of a burning grain elevator working to evacuate injured employees. He worked as a cop for 12 years, much of that time in dangerous undercover assignments. I met him some years after he quit in disgust.
Having lived in sketchy neighborhoods and observed the uselessness of cops firsthand, I was a bit nervous when I learned he had been a cop. When he realized my reaction he put his hand on my shoulder and told me I was right to be suspicious.
The hero cop told me that if you meet a guy who's been a cop for more than five years, there is a ninety-five percent chance he's dirty. He said you get the do-gooders who want to save the world but most of them wash out. The basic work is hard, dangerous, often boring, and the pay sucks, so if you meet someone who's stuck with it for a decade you can be sure they're getting something else out of it, whether it's payola on the side or some kind of sick power trip.
His excuse? He was a very serious Christian and it took him longer than usual to get the memo about that whole saving the world thing not working out in the end.
posted by localroger at 5:29 AM on September 22, 2009 [8 favorites]
Makes me think of an early, awesome episode of "The Simpsons" in which Bart, as part of a "Career Day," is doing a ride-along with Springfield police officers Eddie and Lou.
Bart: Do you need straight A's to be a cop?
Eddie and Lou: [uncontrollable laughter]
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:30 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Bart: Do you need straight A's to be a cop?
Eddie and Lou: [uncontrollable laughter]
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:30 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Honestly: How could you possibly have thought another taser thread would be good for Metafilter?
Everyone has already started posting the same comments they posted in the last thread.
posted by smackfu at 5:38 AM on September 22, 2009
Everyone has already started posting the same comments they posted in the last thread.
posted by smackfu at 5:38 AM on September 22, 2009
>The Merced Police Department's Internal Affairs Division is investigating
*whew* what a relief. For a minute there I thought those two cops were going to get off with a wrist-slap for what is without question unnecessary use of force. Unless of course Gregory Williams was using his Jedi powers on them. Then I suppose its okay to assault an unarmed man with no legs. Or maybe he had one of those new wheelchairs that can transform into a twelve foot tall robot with rocket launchers and lasers. I'm sure department regulation allow for use of deadly force in the event of transforming urban-assault wheelchairs.
Really, if in fact Williams was unarmed, there is no reason for this to ever happen - not under any regulatory or social setting - and no reason not to fire those two cops pronto. If they're that quick to deploy a weapon known to be potentially lethal, quite frankly, they shouldn't be given any weapons, or allowed to have any.
posted by bithead at 5:40 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
*whew* what a relief. For a minute there I thought those two cops were going to get off with a wrist-slap for what is without question unnecessary use of force. Unless of course Gregory Williams was using his Jedi powers on them. Then I suppose its okay to assault an unarmed man with no legs. Or maybe he had one of those new wheelchairs that can transform into a twelve foot tall robot with rocket launchers and lasers. I'm sure department regulation allow for use of deadly force in the event of transforming urban-assault wheelchairs.
Really, if in fact Williams was unarmed, there is no reason for this to ever happen - not under any regulatory or social setting - and no reason not to fire those two cops pronto. If they're that quick to deploy a weapon known to be potentially lethal, quite frankly, they shouldn't be given any weapons, or allowed to have any.
posted by bithead at 5:40 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
That's right, smackfu, let's all quietly pretend it didn't happen.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:43 AM on September 22, 2009
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:43 AM on September 22, 2009
I guess it would help for everyone to give their examples of being wronged by the police, again. That would foster discussion of this case.
posted by smackfu at 5:48 AM on September 22, 2009
posted by smackfu at 5:48 AM on September 22, 2009
I don't think garbagemen or sewage workers willingly put themselves at risk of bodily harm in the same way as police or firemen do.
Fishermen and loggers have almost 8x the fatality rates. Pilots, farmers, ranchers, and yes, even garbage collectors are all professions 3-4x more dangerous. And firefighting? That's just a 1/3rd as risky as policing. As professions go, catching lobster is almost 18x more dangerous than fighting fires.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:53 AM on September 22, 2009 [5 favorites]
Fishermen and loggers have almost 8x the fatality rates. Pilots, farmers, ranchers, and yes, even garbage collectors are all professions 3-4x more dangerous. And firefighting? That's just a 1/3rd as risky as policing. As professions go, catching lobster is almost 18x more dangerous than fighting fires.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:53 AM on September 22, 2009 [5 favorites]
(Rounding)
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:53 AM on September 22, 2009
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:53 AM on September 22, 2009
I guess it would help for everyone to give their examples of being wronged by the police, again. That would foster discussion of this case.
posted by smackfu at 5:48 AM on September 22
Are you the same person who found the FPPs dealing with the revelations that the U.S. government under Bush illegally detailed and tortured U.S. citizens "boring" or something? Instances of police brutality are both interesting and important, as much as, if not more so, than posts on XKCD or Netflix or cute animals on Youtube. "Best of the web" does not always have to mean "more fucking mashup nerd shit for nerds."
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:11 AM on September 22, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by smackfu at 5:48 AM on September 22
Are you the same person who found the FPPs dealing with the revelations that the U.S. government under Bush illegally detailed and tortured U.S. citizens "boring" or something? Instances of police brutality are both interesting and important, as much as, if not more so, than posts on XKCD or Netflix or cute animals on Youtube. "Best of the web" does not always have to mean "more fucking mashup nerd shit for nerds."
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:11 AM on September 22, 2009 [4 favorites]
We've had some problems with taser over-use in Canada too.
One of the big problems is how these devices have been marketed to police as being completely non-lethal, so it's ok to use them just about any time. Like they're a kinder, gentler baton, or something. So many officers think the taser is a replacement for any use of physical force, or as the first tool to force compliance.
Many forces are now re-evaluating how they use tasers; unfortunately it's taken some deaths to get to this point.
(folks this taser issue has about zero to do with police corruption or job fatality rate... or are you just bored with tasers already?)
posted by Artful Codger at 6:12 AM on September 22, 2009
One of the big problems is how these devices have been marketed to police as being completely non-lethal, so it's ok to use them just about any time. Like they're a kinder, gentler baton, or something. So many officers think the taser is a replacement for any use of physical force, or as the first tool to force compliance.
Many forces are now re-evaluating how they use tasers; unfortunately it's taken some deaths to get to this point.
(folks this taser issue has about zero to do with police corruption or job fatality rate... or are you just bored with tasers already?)
posted by Artful Codger at 6:12 AM on September 22, 2009
not just the cops. they let this guy sit in jail for six days before releasing him without charging him. nice little lesson they gave him, isn't it?
posted by lester at 6:15 AM on September 22, 2009
posted by lester at 6:15 AM on September 22, 2009
Everyone has already started posting the same comments they posted in the last thread.
I'm trying to figure out how to use include files.
posted by pracowity at 6:39 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm trying to figure out how to use include files.
posted by pracowity at 6:39 AM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Ban Tasers.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 6:56 AM on September 22, 2009
posted by LastOfHisKind at 6:56 AM on September 22, 2009
Williams is black, and the two main arresting officers are white, but it's unknown whether race played any role in the incident.
But that's not going to stop us from implying that it did!
posted by cyphill at 7:15 AM on September 22, 2009
But that's not going to stop us from implying that it did!
posted by cyphill at 7:15 AM on September 22, 2009
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Fucking pigs*.
Note that this does not apply to all officers of the law, merely the shits like the one in question.
posted by Dysk at 1:56 AM on September 22, 2009