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"I hate Windows, but I hate strawmen Mac evangelists more."
September 30, 2009 3:08 PM   Subscribe

Charlie Brooker's half-serious hatred of Macs is well documented, and he has just revisited the topic again for some reason. Some are a little miffed at the whole thing. (via)

Charlie Brooker is the host of the wondrous Screenwipe, which has showed up here before as well as other Brooker exploits.
posted by The Devil Tesla (177 comments total) 8 users marked this as a favorite

 
Okay, everyone...you know the drill.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:13 PM on September 30, 2009 [6 favorites]


Because he is a professional curmudgeon. And because...well...because the MS party advert is a crime against humanity. Yes, Google, that's right. A crime against humanity.
posted by jaduncan at 3:15 PM on September 30, 2009


I hate people who can't just pick a computer and shut the fuck up.
posted by doctor_negative at 3:16 PM on September 30, 2009 [34 favorites]


Are Mac users the Richard Dawkins of computers?

Discuss.
posted by Sova at 3:17 PM on September 30, 2009 [8 favorites]


Miffed is the word. As in caught red-handed and trying to look all puzzled.

Personally I've never looked back since I installed Myknonos.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 3:17 PM on September 30, 2009


Oh.... my ... fucking ... god ....
posted by a non e mouse at 3:18 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


This will end well.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:18 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Use what you want to. I don't care. But leave me and my Mac alone to enjoy our smug superiority.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:19 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


How can you hate an inanimate object?

Evangelists for an inanimate object are another thing entirely.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 3:20 PM on September 30, 2009


Personally I've never looked back since I installed Myknonos.

You installed a popular Greek tourist resort? Damn, I don't think I'd look back either.
posted by lekvar at 3:20 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


He's just done Gameswipe... on the Iplayer for UKians and coming soon to the rest of the internets.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:20 PM on September 30, 2009


Some are a little miffed at the whole thing

Heh. Well, it's not like it's exactly hard to get the fanboi crowd miffed.

Hey! fanbois! iTunes on windows is shittily designed! Objective C sucks ass! iPhone stability and battery life is not quite what it could be compared with that of it's competitors!

That ought to do the trick.
posted by Artw at 3:20 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Also: You know what's even more tired than Apple fanbois?
Hating Apple fanbois.
posted by lekvar at 3:22 PM on September 30, 2009 [3 favorites]


No, it never gets old.
posted by Artw at 3:22 PM on September 30, 2009 [13 favorites]


Macs are the worst computers, except for all the others.
posted by mullingitover at 3:22 PM on September 30, 2009 [8 favorites]


The thing he doesn't understand, and many "Mac haters" don't get, is that Mac users don't hate PC's, they hate Windows. Windows is shit. PC's are great if you want to build your own machine to run Solaris or Linux and etc, but the majority of the people out there want to surf the internet and do work instead of being hardcore computer geeks who know the in's and out's of the hardware and raid configurations and file systems and all the other stuff we generally pay experts to take care of. Thats why Macs are nice if you are not a computer nerd. You don't have to use Windows and the computer comes in a neat package, and will generally work better for you. I also believe that a majority of Mac users were probably at one time Windows users, and had all the problems Windows users will inevitably have while using it. I was the same way, I owned a desktop and 3 laptops over the pass decade that ran Windows and I would have the same problems and crashes and weird little lockups, seemingly because I clicked too quickly for the computer, or simply wanted to open another web page in another window. I now have a Mac, and I have had it for two years, and it consistently works better and smoother than any Windows machine I have ever used. I may build a hardcore PC in the future, but I will pretty much always swear by my Macbook as far as laptops go.
posted by TheCoyote23 at 3:23 PM on September 30, 2009 [16 favorites]


My TRS-80 does everything a computer needs to do.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:23 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Every party should be a Windows 7 party.
posted by Artw at 3:25 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


You could just say that "Some hack at the Guardian got hammered and wrote a drunken screed about Windows."

Oh, and in case it hasn't been posted here already, that horrific Win 7 party video is way, way better with edits.
posted by shiu mai baby at 3:25 PM on September 30, 2009


Sorry.... that was supposed to be:

Oh ..... my ...... fucking ..... god!
posted by a non e mouse at 3:25 PM on September 30, 2009


From the last link:
I’ve never once encountered an Apple zealot half as frothy-mouthed as the jackasses who jump on every opportunity to take cheap shots at Apple products and their users.
Bullshit. Frothy-mouthed Apple zealots are a dime a dozen.
posted by micketymoc at 3:26 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Some are a little miffed at the whole thing.

For "some" read "one guy I never heard of, in a short blog posting which starts out trying to be as funny as Brooker before giving up and just being dull, whingy and obvious."
posted by George_Spiggott at 3:26 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


Before this spins too far down the usual Mac/PC slashfic avenues, in which fanboys of both platforms use outward loathing to poorly conceal their raging shameful need for each other, I just want to point out this:

It's so terrible, it induces an entirely new emotion: a blend of vertigo, disgust, anger and embarrassment which I like to call "shitasmia". It not only creates this emotion: it defines it. It's the most shitasmic cultural artefact in history

...is important. The Mac vs PC courtship is important, but it'd be really shitasmic if it meant the loss of a good neologism.
posted by Drastic at 3:26 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


I was expecting that "launch party" video to be bad, but...
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:27 PM on September 30, 2009


The thing he doesn't understand, and many "Mac haters" don't get, is that Mac users don't hate PC's, they hate Windows. Windows is shit

Exactly. And, look, the Mac I'm typing on is, in fact, a PC. I could easily run Windows on it. I could just as easily smash the screen, take a shard of glass, cut out my intestines, and hang myself with them, but I'm not doing that either.

I may build a hardcore PC in the future, but I will pretty much always swear by my Macbook as far as laptops go.

I buy Mac notebooks because I save money. I've owed three, a Rev B TiBook, a 12" PowerBook G4, and now the Air. The first two lasted four years *each*, still work, and were only retired because they were starting to get beat up. So, while I spent more on the Mac notebooks, I got 4 years of use out of them, so, by dollars/year, I'm way ahead of most other notebook owners, who pay half the cost four times as often.

The one exception was the IBM ThinkPads, which, amusingly enough, cost as much as Mac notebooks. Alas, Lenova is fucking them up.
posted by eriko at 3:27 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


[The Windows 7 party video] so terrible, it induces an entirely new emotion: a blend of vertigo, disgust, anger and embarrassment which I like to call "shitasmia". It not only creates this emotion: it defines it. It's the most shitasmic cultural artefact in history.

I have been looking for a word defining the opposite of schadenfreude. This will do for now.
posted by maudlin at 3:28 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I think it's more of a "get the right tool for the job" kind of thing. For me, the reason to own a Mac boils down to one thing: Logic Audio is available only for Mac. Anything else is ancillary.
posted by Frobenius Twist at 3:28 PM on September 30, 2009


> Are Mac users the Richard Dawkins of computers? Discuss.

No. Mac users are Catholics (System 7 users are Orthodox). A rich, comprehensive philosophy accompanies a strong belief in the power of iconography. Chimes indicate magic happening and inspire a sense of awe. The whole enterprise is led by a benevolent dictator.

PC users are Reformation Protestants, convinced of the superiority of text and decrying the visual interface as "merely shiney." They also believe Mac users are blind for following a single character without question. Most PC users are quite ignorant of the debates - principled and unprincipled - forming the future of the Church of Mac.

VMWare Fusion users are Anglicans.
posted by jock@law at 3:29 PM on September 30, 2009 [35 favorites]


Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway...using Windows is like living in a communist bloc nation circa 1981. And I wouldn't change it for the world, because I'm an abject bloody idiot and I hate myself, and this is what I deserve: to be sentenced to Windows for life

Brilliant. Personally I quite like myself and knowing I deserve more I use a mac most of the time, Windows for penance (or when the beachball of crapness drives me to it).
posted by twistedonion at 3:30 PM on September 30, 2009


No. Mac users are Catholics (System 7 users are Orthodox). A rich, comprehensive philosophy accompanies a strong belief in the power of iconography. Chimes indicate magic happening and inspire a sense of awe. The whole enterprise is led by a benevolent dictator.

PC users are Reformation Protestants, convinced of the superiority of text and decrying the visual interface as "merely shiney." They also believe Mac users are blind for following a single character without question. Most PC users are quite ignorant of the debates - principled and unprincipled - forming the future of the Church of Mac.


Thank you Umberto Eco.
posted by hippybear at 3:33 PM on September 30, 2009 [13 favorites]


"Like Peet’s is more cultured than Starbucks, and Jazz is more cultured than bubblegum pop, and like Macs are more cultured than PC’s, Facebook is of a cooler caliber than MySpace."
posted by Artw at 3:34 PM on September 30, 2009


The thing he doesn't understand, and many "Mac haters" don't get, is that Mac users don't hate PC's, they hate Windows

What? No, I get this. I just disagree. Although since Apple won't let you run your OS on generic hardware, the distinction is less important in practice. That being said, I still prefer Windows even if the Apple hardware lock-in wasn't an issue.
posted by wildcrdj at 3:38 PM on September 30, 2009


I was a diehard Mac fanatic in the 90's. Then I really learned how to actually use a computer.

Never again...never again. I'll never own another Apple product in my life once I figured out the scam.
posted by GavinR at 3:38 PM on September 30, 2009 [5 favorites]


I like computers.
posted by Elmore at 3:39 PM on September 30, 2009 [3 favorites]


"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it. "

quoted for truthiness

Also shitasmia
posted by Artful Codger at 3:39 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


Aw, crap. I totally screwed up that last link. The edited and therefore infinitely more hilarious Windows 7 party video is here.

If a mod were inclined to, say, edit my link and delete this post, I would be fine with that.
posted by shiu mai baby at 3:40 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


GavinR: explain?
posted by jock@law at 3:40 PM on September 30, 2009


One thing I will say for Windows. If you

- install a retail copy yourself (thus avoiding all the shit that vendors and integrators put on);
- install only the applications that you actually bought the PC to run;
- for peripherals, install only the device drivers alone from manufacturer websites and NOT the installation executable from the CD it shipped with;
- turn off anything that might actually run a program you don't intend -- this includes any form of autoplay;
- don't go installing other crapware just because you can;
- use anything but I.E. for browsing, practically anything but Outlook for email, and any reputable media player in place of WMP; and
- get a decent antimalware suite;

The result will compare pretty well with OSX in terms of stability and longevity. The remainder of the experience is mostly a matter of taste.
posted by George_Spiggott at 3:40 PM on September 30, 2009 [32 favorites]


Also, as someone who works in an office dominated by Macs (well, Linux really --- but way more Macs than Windows), the idea that Macs don't have crashes, hardware issues, etc is pretty clearly wrong. People around here complain of glitches about as often as people do on Windows machines.
posted by wildcrdj at 3:41 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


I looked at the video again, (it's hard to stop, it's visual crack. Hell it could be the entertainment in Infinite Jest.)

Anyway, is it a case of M$ being too hip for their own good? Did they originally conceive the spot as an uber post modern ironic piss take, and we're all too thick to get it? The possibility is equally plausible with it being totally genuine. If you haven't seen it do, it's so cringe-worthy that it plants the seed of doubt as to it's veracity. It's a loud fart at a cocktail party crawl under the table and die bad. I find it difficult that the same organization that did those superb I am a PC spots a few months ago also did this. Then again there was that Bill Gates/Jerry Seinfeld pile'o'poo a while back, so it's possible.

I've got a sneaky feeling that we're all being played, look at the press the campaign has generated, What does Microsoft have to lose, we already consider them the dorkiest least hip company in the world, they make an youtube video and spend approx. three minutes of Bill Gates yearly take and generate millions of publicity.

Or maybe they really are that clueless.

Regardless, I'm not convinced it's not a it's a pitch perfect anti-cool dig at Apple's corporate sanctioned official 'rebel' image.
posted by Keith Talent at 3:42 PM on September 30, 2009


Some are a little miffed at the whole thing.

The Mac fans who are miffed missed the point, probably because they stopped reading before he could finish listing his anti-Mac qualifications. Which, apparently, are extensive.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:43 PM on September 30, 2009


TheCoyote23: "The thing he doesn't understand"
From the links:
I know Windows is awful. Everyone knows Windows is awful. Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it. OK, OK: I know other operating systems are available. But their advocates seem even creepier, snootier and more insistent than Mac owners. The harder they try to convince me, the more I'm repelled. To them, I'm a sheep. And they're right. I'm a helpless, stupid, lazy sheep. I'm also a masochist. And that's why I continue to use Windows – horrible Windows – even though I hate every second of it. It's grim, it's slow, everything's badly designed and nothing really works properly: using Windows is like living in a communist bloc nation circa 1981. And I wouldn't change it for the world, because I'm an abject bloody idiot and I hate myself, and this is what I deserve: to be sentenced to Windows for life.

That's why Windows works for me. But I'd never recommend it to anybody else, ever. This puts me in line with roughly everybody else in the world. No one has ever earnestly turned to a fellow human being and said, "Hey, have you considered Windows?" Not in the real world at any rate.
You didn't even read any of the links before you stuffed your head under your sheets, snorting up great lungfuls of your own flatulence. Look at you. Just look. Mac users as Catholics indeed: while you were typing your reply, did you have fistfuls of beads while your mumbling all that nonsense under your breath? Did you stand up and sit down seven times before you posted?
posted by boo_radley at 3:44 PM on September 30, 2009 [7 favorites]


I was a diehard Mac fanatic in the 90's.

Talk about timing... Mac fanatic when the OS was a joke? You jumped ship just when things got good. OS X saved the mac imho. 8.6 was pretty good as far as I remember, but the amount of crashes were embarrassing.
posted by twistedonion at 3:44 PM on September 30, 2009 [5 favorites]


I think Microsoft missed a trick in around 2002/2003 by not running ads spinning Windows as the solid mainstream choice for regular people and Mac users as effete, probably disloyal cosmopolitanist snobs, and going for a "whassamatta, are you too good to be like everyone else?" subtext. If they played it subtly enough (i.e., no overt flags/soaring eagle shots), they could have cut into Mac sales seriously. ("I checked out the Mac but.. I don't know, it seems somehow... un-American.")
posted by acb at 3:45 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


boo_radley: im not sure who your post is directed at. i didnt speak ill or well of one or the other, and the other guy didnt make the computers-as-religions joke.
posted by jock@law at 3:46 PM on September 30, 2009


If Mac users are Catholics and Windows users are Reformation Protestants, I presume Linux users are Pentecostals: they talk in tongues, make a lot of noise, and nobody can understand what they are raving about.
posted by Skeptic at 3:47 PM on September 30, 2009 [20 favorites]


jock@law: Yes, I appropriated your Catholic bit and wove it into my own commentary. You're clear in my book here.
posted by boo_radley at 3:48 PM on September 30, 2009


I buy Mac notebooks because I save money. I've owed three, a Rev B TiBook, a 12" PowerBook G4, and now the Air. The first two lasted four years *each*, still work, and were only retired because they were starting to get beat up. So, while I spent more on the Mac notebooks, I got 4 years of use out of them, so, by dollars/year, I'm way ahead of most other notebook owners, who pay half the cost four times as often.

Really? I think its a bit of a stretch to say that most windows users replace their laptop every year.
posted by kylej at 3:49 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


For "some" read "one guy I never heard of"

Add to that John Gruber, who linked to that article, and me, and I think that's a some.
posted by The Devil Tesla at 3:49 PM on September 30, 2009


MetaFilter: Standing over your shoulder in their charcoal pullovers, smirking with amusement at your hopelessly inferior OS
posted by panboi at 3:49 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


>
One thing I will say for Windows. If you

[do this, that, and the other thing]

The result will compare pretty well with OSX in terms of stability and longevity.
Well, here's the thing, George: I got those results from OSX without having to treat my operating system like a plutonium-dusted squirrel on crystal meth. Operating systems are supposed to work for the end user, not the other way around.
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:51 PM on September 30, 2009 [4 favorites]


MetaFilter: like a plutonium-dusted squirrel on crystal meth
posted by jock@law at 3:52 PM on September 30, 2009 [5 favorites]


The thing he doesn't understand, and many "Mac haters" don't get, is that Mac users don't hate PC's, they hate Windows.
Conversely, the thing most Mac evangelists don't get when I talk to them is that I don't hate the OS. The underpinnings are brilliant.

I just hate the GUI conventions. It's always the small things: Home/End keys; Focus-Follows-Mouse without Autoraise; the menu bar at the top; the keyboard shortcuts; the restrictions on what can and cannot be customized in the GUI.

Yes, I know the home/end keys can be fixed. Yes, I know I can find apps that do global hotkeys, and change keyboard shortcuts. But no, I can't get rid of the goddamn menu bar, and the loss of focus-follows-mouse is crippling. I understand why Cupertino does it; I've had that argument plenty of times.

It's not just that, though. I don't want an iPhone or iPod because of iTunes. I don't want to be stuck in Apple's walled Eden. I understand why they do it, and it works great.

But this fact that I just don't like some of Apple's decisions, and that I tend not to get excited about Apple's new shinies, gets me confused looks, as if I've admitted to something horrifying, that something's just wrong with me.

I swear, sometimes it seems that I'd get fewer odd, slightly disapproving looks were I to interrupt Midnight Mass on Christmas wearing a nothing but chaps and cavort with the archbishop.
posted by qcubed at 3:53 PM on September 30, 2009 [6 favorites]


I never could understand the big fuss made between or over the PC and the Mac. Buy what you like. Use it. Go your way. Now Blackberry versus IPhone--that is another story.
posted by Postroad at 3:53 PM on September 30, 2009


A windows 7 party? Is that anything like a jewelry party or a Tupperware party or that cosmetics pusher thing?
posted by Cranberry at 3:54 PM on September 30, 2009


I happily use Windows (most flavours), Mac, Linux, Unix. Especially when I'm paid to. Does this make me a pantheist?

(WinXP Pro has pretty much "just worked" for me since 2003. No blue screen, only virus was an exploit on an unpatched demo of a MS SQL server. )
posted by Artful Codger at 3:55 PM on September 30, 2009


I think Microsoft missed a trick in around 2002/2003 by not running ads spinning Windows as the solid mainstream choice for regular people and Mac users as effete

WINDOWS XP™: Least I ain't some kinda queer.
posted by naju at 3:55 PM on September 30, 2009 [24 favorites]


I use a PC for business (our software runs on Windows) and a mac for personal use. I prefer the Mac, but, as someone familiar with the spinning rainbow of death, the mac has issues of its own.

It's the creation of itunes and the ipod that has earned my eternal gratitude. 16,000 songs, hundreds of playlists and the ability to take thousands of albums, comedy, books on tape, podcasts, superstar teacher series, etc. easily accessible in the palm of my hand is just fantastic.

Apple TV doesn't suck either.
posted by cjets at 3:57 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


People who are fanatical about anything are usually narrowminded dicks. I just like computers.
posted by Elmore at 3:58 PM on September 30, 2009 [3 favorites]


interrupt Midnight Mass on Christmas wearing a nothing but chaps and cavort with the archbishop.

At last! A service which might draw me back into the church!
posted by hippybear at 3:59 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


If Mac users are Catholics and Windows users are Reformation Protestants, I presume Linux users are Pentecostals: they talk in tongues, make a lot of noise, and nobody can understand what they are raving about.

I was thinking Gnostic, but Pentecostal works too.
posted by brundlefly at 4:00 PM on September 30, 2009


I got those results from OSX without having to treat my operating system like a plutonium-dusted squirrel on crystal meth.

That OSX will work comparably to OSX is sort of tautological, isn't it?

Anyway, the point is that Windows itself is not quite as horrible as the average experience with it would suggest -- an awful lot of what really messes up your machine isn't made by Microsoft at all. However, I will allow that MS probably deserves some blame for that too, given all their mystery meat APIs and poor guidance to vendors.

(Just for context, I use only Linux or OSX when I have a choice. I'm speaking from experience rather than let my personal preferences color. And I agree with you that it's not reasonable to have to work so hard to defend a Windows machine from the nasties, that's one of the reasons I avoid it.)
posted by George_Spiggott at 4:03 PM on September 30, 2009


No. Mac users are Catholics (System 7 users are Orthodox). A rich, comprehensive philosophy accompanies a strong belief in the power of iconography. Chimes indicate magic happening and inspire a sense of awe. The whole enterprise is led by a benevolent dictator.

There are some practical problems with the aptness of this characterization for no small number of the Mac users I'm acquainted with, but I like it so much I don't care.
posted by weston at 4:06 PM on September 30, 2009


Haha. Hating on rabid Mac evangelists? Really? I haven't seen shit like that in years. No one walks up to your Windows computer in a coffee shop and goes "ugh, look at that Windows Vista, how déclassé". No, the only time we make comments like "maybe you should get a Mac" is when you ask us dumbass questions like "How do I get rid of spyware" and "I think the drivers broke my wireless network, what do I do?".

"Get a fucking Mac," is what I reply. I'm not just being smug, I'm also saying, "No, I don't want to hear about your computer problems."

No one cares what you use. Have fun with Windows. Really. Just don't ask me to solve your problems or expect me to sympathize when you're bitching about the latest bullshit that you have to deal with. If you do, I have a license to be a smug Mac-user asshole the entire time — "What? Registry is screwed up? Gosh Windows is so terrible. Yeah I'm trying to fix it. What's your hotkey for Quicksilver? Oh... I see."
posted by amuseDetachment at 4:10 PM on September 30, 2009 [10 favorites]


I prefer the Mac, but, as someone familiar with the spinning rainbow of death, the mac has issues of its own.

The beachball is from the application level doing something, so its attention isn't paid to pushing buttons or any window UI. The core operating system is still functioning, it's just the way the app was written. E.g. if it's trying to save a picture in Photoshop to a disk that is slow, the app is too busy writing for it to be rendering the next dialog box. The system is still running fine and you can still run other applications during that time, just not that application. If the application was multi-threaded (which Apple is really pushing lately), then it shouldn't have that issue.

TL;DR: Blame the application you're using.
posted by amuseDetachment at 4:14 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


boo_radley
You didn't even read any of the links .....

No, I posted after reading the first link, then moved on to the others. Sorry to offend your sense of link etiquette. I sort of thought this was an ongoing/living discussion, and while I was writing no one else had posted yet. The rest doesn't change the fact that what I was saying is true. Also, people who use other operating systems are usually snootier because they are usually hardcore users and kind of deserve to be that way from their hard work and dedication to real computing.
posted by TheCoyote23 at 4:14 PM on September 30, 2009


God I wish that video would turn into a) a blood bath or b) an orgy.
posted by nosila at 4:17 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


"Just don't ask me to solve your problems or expect me to sympathize when you're bitching about the latest bullshit that you have to deal with"

And it's comments like this, whether they're from the mac or the PC crowd, that make Brooker right every goddamn time.
posted by ciderwoman at 4:22 PM on September 30, 2009 [3 favorites]


I was a diehard Mac fanatic in the 90's. Then I really learned how to actually use a computer.

Never again...never again. I'll never own another Apple product in my life once I figured out the scam.


I've never understood this variety of complaint. Maybe you might mean "how you like to actually use a computer?" I can't think of another meaning that fits with my experience, which suggests there's no shortage of people who arguably know not only how to use a computer but have worked with a number of platforms beyond just Windows and Macintosh and still choose Macs (a category which I identify with), particularly since OS X.
posted by weston at 4:22 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Weirdly I like the look and feel of OS X less than I liked the look and feel of OS 9.
posted by Artw at 4:24 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


You know, I give all of them the finger. My home is completely technologically agnostic; I've got Linux running on Macs and OSX running on PCs. And various Windows and Unices running on my Xen box. And Android running on my old WinMo phone. I have uses for all of them. If you like it, use it. If you don't, don't. JFC, get over it already.
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 4:27 PM on September 30, 2009


The love of the Amiga 500 will never be replaced in my heart.

(No, don't tell me about some zombie OS revival project, that shit is dead and it isn't getting up)
posted by Artw at 4:29 PM on September 30, 2009


I married a Windoze user and turned him into a Mac user and fanboi of his own free will. It took time, but I changed him for the better.

Most women and gay men will tell you that you're a fool to think you can change a man, but they're quitters! When I first met my hubby, he was a loud, crude, and piggish Windoze user who won an Xbox360 at a Microsoft programming competition. But I worked hard on him, and now he's a whole new person.

He's a whole new person, Lisa.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:31 PM on September 30, 2009 [5 favorites]


>That OSX will work comparably to OSX is sort of tautological, isn't it?

Except that's not what I said; "those results" refers to OSX reaching that level of "stability and longevity", which it does without having to shake the chicken bones and do the little stability-and-longevity dance.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:33 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Weirdly I like the look and feel of OS X less than I liked the look and feel of OS 9.

Agreed. The finder in OS X sucked. What's with that slidy panel bullshit? That was less counter-intuitive than Norton Commander.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:36 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


I've brought my MacBook Pro to LANs before. It's no slouch and has a decent GPU compared to most mid-range desktop stuff and it's usually one of the first ones in ye olde WC3 loading race thanks to the new 7200rpm hard drive I put into it. If I need to I boot it into Windows for the night and start on some COD4 multiplayer on my Boot Camp partition. I don't go slagging on Windows users because, well, not only is it impolite but I'm chances are I'll actually be one of them for the night.

The only trouble I get is from that douche that sees the Apple logo or the Aluminium and goes "ewwww.... you're running a Mac?" who then proceeds to go on about how "Macs can't play games" or "it's not really UNIX or BSD" and how I "could have bought a much more powerful PC for much less".

Or the douche that walks by when you're talking about mobile phones in general and someone asks about an iPhone during the course of the conversation and they go "ewwww... iPhone" without a second thought. It's almost as bad as that twit that tells everyone to get an iPhone, their requirements be damned.

I hate mindless bigotry on both sides. All of it is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

/sigh
posted by Talez at 4:36 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Something I don't understand about Macs is the fact that everything costs money. Text editors, archiving programs, image format converters... it's like PCs in the early nineties, back when there used to be shareware catalogs. Except that Mac OS X is a Unix-based operating system and there are five hundred free alternatives to all of the $30 shareware.
posted by sonic meat machine at 4:39 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Weirdly I like the look and feel of OS X less than I liked the look and feel of OS 9.

There are many long-time Mac users who miss the way the old Finder worked and long for a way to recreate that in OS X. That's just about the only complaint I continue to hear now that they have more than a few years of OS X use under their belt.
posted by hippybear at 4:39 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


I really don't like the way the taskbar thingy works. The one Windows 7 is ripping off.
posted by Artw at 4:40 PM on September 30, 2009


I really don't like the way the taskbar thingy works.

So do some mac users, that is why there is drag thing.
posted by The Devil Tesla at 4:47 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


as if I've admitted to something horrifying, that something's just wrong with me.

You're unclean.

Weirdly I like the look and feel of OS X less than I liked the look and feel of OS 9.

Yeah, it was less candy colored and feeling and mostly seemed to stay out of the way. I don't hate the OS X finder, just think it isn't as good as OS 9 in look and feel.

That said, I loath the changes to the dock that occurred with 10.5 and will be sticking to 10.4 as long as I can.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:53 PM on September 30, 2009


I loath the changes to the dock that occurred with 10.5 and will be sticking to 10.4 as long as I can.

If you are talking about the mirror shelf thing, try secrets. That has customization options beyond changing the dock to something that looks good, but it's probably the best way to do it. If you are talking about stacks there is the very nice list view that I actually like better than how folders worked in the dock in 10.4.

There is nothing else that changed in the dock, so it might be time to look into upgrading.
posted by The Devil Tesla at 5:01 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


The idea that Macs don't have crashes, hardware issues, etc is pretty clearly wrong. People around here complain of glitches about as often as people do on Windows machines.

Macs often have crashes and glitches, but not nearly as often nor as agonizing as Windows, from my experience.
posted by ovvl at 5:05 PM on September 30, 2009


Whether you're on a PC, Mac, or solar-powered abacus, one thing is true: if you stick light black serif font over a background of gray-to-black clouds, you can fucking bite me, asshole.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:08 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Hey now, he's stuck a white text-shadow under it!
posted by Artw at 5:12 PM on September 30, 2009


try secrets

Thanks!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:12 PM on September 30, 2009


The single interesting aspect of your personality is your choice of OS.
posted by signal at 5:14 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


I was kind of okay with Macs until my G4 iBook needed a new logic board every 6-12 months (Steve Jobs bought me three replacements before telling me to pound sand). I hear the Australians really got boned on that one.

And until I got hoodwinked into buying an iMac G5 which never, ever ran any faster than the G4 because the code was all optimized for G4 chips.

And until the G5 couldn't ever connect to my wi-fi even when it was sitting right next to the base station (any of the three I tried).

And until the Intel MacBook decided to drop its wi-fi connection at random (I have two separate base stations running all the time, just to increase the odds it will find one; how come I could take the old G4 laptop down the alley behind my house and it'd never drop?)

And until the G5 finally just stopped booting due to, again, some logic board problem.

Yeah, Apple's software irritates the living shit out of me from time to time, but I can live with that. I can live with the idiotic limitations of iTunes (how come 'shuffle' is a global setting? why can't I shuffle some playlists and not others?)

But I find it harder to live without the array of free tools for doing stuff like fixing the MPEG headers on my camcorder files, or slicing and dicing MP3 files, or assembling stereograms, and I'm positively done getting screwed over by Apple's lack of interest in hardware QA.
posted by Rat Spatula at 5:34 PM on September 30, 2009


> Something I don't understand about Macs is the fact that everything costs money. Text editors, archiving programs, image format converters... it's like PCs in the early nineties, back when there used to be shareware catalogs. Except that Mac OS X is a Unix-based operating system and there are five hundred free alternatives to all of the $30 shareware.

I am so confused by what you're saying:

- Everything on Macs cost money (implying that everything is free on the PC, which it is obviously not)
- Macs are Unix-based and there's lots of stuff written for Unix that is free (just like all the Linux users)

???
posted by meowzilla at 5:39 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


how come 'shuffle' is a global setting? why can't I shuffle some playlists and not others?

I knew that didn't sound right, and booted up iTunes to check.

I scroll through my list of playlists. The ones which are huge pools of songs I have set on shuffle. The ones which I want to listen to as an "album" are not shuffled. I do not have to change anything in the settings once I have set one list to shuffle and another to not shuffle.

Maybe that's an iTunes 9 feature? I can't retrograde to check, but I seem to remember it working the same way in iTunes 8.
posted by hippybear at 5:41 PM on September 30, 2009


I am so confused by what you're saying:

- Everything on Macs cost money (implying that everything is free on the PC, which it is obviously not)
- Macs are Unix-based and there's lots of stuff written for Unix that is free (just like all the Linux users)


Never mind that there is free Mac software.
posted by brundlefly at 5:43 PM on September 30, 2009


I will say he's right on the money when it comes to the whole "Apple puts the pod in the Ipod" business. It's awesome hearing an Apple engineer tell you that you should trash all of your servers, and get Apple servers, despite the fact that none of your vendor apps are supported on them, and neither are the apps of competing vendors are, either — but you'd have Apple servers! People bringing their Macs in then complaining about them having trouble joining the domain. People who have trouble connecting to shares on a Windows 2008 cluster, because, hey, they got a Mac. But we should totally get a Mac for this thing we're doing! You should get a Mac, too!

In my mind, all I hear is "Michael ... be one of us" and "Go where? That's right, go where? What happened in the server room ... are you listening? What happened in the server room is not an isolated incident. It is something that is happening everywhere to everyone. So where you gonna go? Where you gonna run? Where you gonna hide? Nowhere, because there's no one like you left."

Then they hold up some white earbuds, point at me, and issue an inhuman wail.
posted by adipocere at 5:49 PM on September 30, 2009 [4 favorites]


He's just done Gameswipe... on the Iplayer for UKians and coming soon to the rest of the internets.

During all the shots filmed in his flat there's a great big MacBook Pro sitting right in front of the camera on the coffee table.
posted by cillit bang at 5:54 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


Yeah, okay... I confirmed that iTunes (on Windows!) tracks the 'shuffle' setting separately for each playlist and the whole Library... (but now I'm thinking that that setting doesn't carry over to my iPod... or didn't).

Anyway, just today I found another reason Apple sucks; the Snow Leopard edition of hdiutil creates .DMG files that Panther refuses to mount ("no mountable filesystems"). .DMG files created by the Leopard version of hdiutil mount just fine.

The hdiutil imageinfo subcommand seems to be telling me that the Snow Leopard-created images are indeed Apple Partition Table based, but the partitions appear to be arranged in a different order and named in different ways. This is all totally a topic I was hugely interested in learning more about.
posted by Rat Spatula at 6:00 PM on September 30, 2009


Shareware occupies a more privileged place in the Mac pantheon. On PCs, there are generally a couple of alternatives: the "real," commercial version, and a less polished but generally powerful free alternative. Shareware is regarded as a half-measure, and is usually of lower quality than either the commercial or the free alternatives. Mac users, in my experience, tend to have a lot of shareware that they evangelize. (A Mac user at my workplace constantly tries to sell me on Image Converter Plus, for example, which costs fifty goddamn dollars when ImageMagick does the same thing.)
posted by sonic meat machine at 6:14 PM on September 30, 2009


The hdiutil imageinfo subcommand seems to be telling me that the Snow Leopard-created images are indeed Apple Partition Table based, but the partitions appear to be arranged in a different order and named in different ways. This is all totally a topic I was hugely interested in learning more about.

Really. I just did hdiutil create test.dmg -size 10m and then ran a hdiutil imageinfo over it and got this:

partitions:
partition-scheme: GUID
block-size: 512


If the partition-scheme is GUID by default then it's no wonder why Panther is epic failing to read the DMG file since GPT support didn't arrive until Tiger.
posted by Talez at 6:35 PM on September 30, 2009


Weenies.
posted by Burhanistan at 6:41 PM on September 30, 2009


Although since Apple won't let you run your OS on generic hardware.

I'm typing this answer on an HP netbook running OS X. It came with a Windows CD, but I use that for a coaster because, ugh, Windows?

The FPP article was funny. It wasn't even a remotely serious complaint article.
posted by rokusan at 6:48 PM on September 30, 2009


how come 'shuffle' is a global setting? why can't I shuffle some playlists and not others?

Huh? I play a playlists in order, or in shuffle, on the computer or on my iPhone. It's not global, it's "of these songs I am currently playing, would you like them shuffled?"

You're using some alternate universe version of "shuffle".
posted by rokusan at 6:49 PM on September 30, 2009


That said, I loath the changes to the dock that occurred with 10.5 and will be sticking to 10.4 as long as I can.

These changes you hate, can you fix them with:

 defaults write com.apple.dock no-glass -boolean YES
 killall Dock


(Which removes the glass, beveled, reflective shelf and returns the more obvious active indicators.)

Or are you talking about something else?
posted by rokusan at 6:54 PM on September 30, 2009


I'm typing this answer on an HP netbook running OS X

Yes, but Apple's not letting you do that, you had to circumvent their copy protection. Unless I missed some major development. That's emblematic of what I hate about Apple: they're about locking things down, to a MUCH greater extent than Microsoft. iPhone is quite similar -- sure, you can hack it, but I don't really want to support a company that makes me do that.
posted by wildcrdj at 7:00 PM on September 30, 2009


"The thing he doesn't understand, and many "Mac haters" don't get, is that Mac users don't hate PC's, they hate Windows. Windows is shit....."
I agree with everything Thecoyote23 had to say.
I don't have a Mac because a pc was cheaper.
My laptop came with Vista. (Does this require any explanation?)
I am mildly afraid of my computers.
I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
(help me.)
posted by Wendy BD at 7:04 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Macs often have crashes and glitches, but not nearly as often nor as agonizing as Windows, from my experience.

If you've seen one crash or more in the last five years, then you've seen more than I have using windows XP. Prior to moving to the XP codebase, I would have given that to you---Win98 crashed often---but since then, not at all. IE7 does seem to bomb out occasionally, but that's only the browser and easily solved by switching to firefox or chrome.

And it's not like I don't use XP either: I have two machines at home, semi-manage two dozen office pcs at work and another 20 or so in a lab environment. I can't remember seeing a single crash that wasn't related to hardware failure since switching to XP. Many of those machines have uptimes in the 2-3 month range, and have done that for the past five years. They only reboot for security patches. IMO, WinXP is the best operating system Microsoft has ever produced, save perhaps DOS 3.3. It's no where near the hassle than even NT4 was, let alone the horrible old days of Windows16.
posted by bonehead at 7:12 PM on September 30, 2009 [4 favorites]


I have to say I bought an EEEPC for law school and at this point I'm desperate for something that has some good note taking software which is apparently missing from linux. I love macs but I'm going to have to buy a dell so I can take advantage of the 4 year warranty and relative cheapness (relative to the mac, not my eeepc)
posted by cyphill at 7:14 PM on September 30, 2009


These changes you hate, can you fix them with:

Cool, thanks!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:24 PM on September 30, 2009


Cool, thanks!

Brandon, did you really not upgrade just because you didn't like how the new dock looks? Cause I can kind of support that.
posted by The Devil Tesla at 7:35 PM on September 30, 2009


"Michael ... be one of us" and "Go where? That's right, go where?"

Are we mixing Lost Boys and Body Snatchers references?

Shareware occupies a more privileged place in the Mac pantheon.

That's long been sortof true but I think with the advent of OS X, there's been a boutique software market of small products, made by individuals or very small teams leveraging the strengths of Cocoa. As you point out, some of it duplicates or wraps in a GUI functionality that's available freely via the unix subsystem, which often doesn't do much for me either, but if people get some utility out of being able to select commands from menus and dialog boxes rather than typing them out, far be it from me to judge, sometimes I do too. Some of software seems like it should be free. Some of it is. On the other hand, shops like Panic offer products that are sometimes worth a twenty or two. Free's often better for a lot of reason, but if I think it'll save me time or effort, I'll buy.
posted by weston at 7:36 PM on September 30, 2009


If you've seen one crash or more in the last five years, then you've seen more than I have using windows XP.

I had frequent lock-ups and maddening slow response times on a system I used from 2004-2006, but I suspect there was a hardware issue with the soundcard and possibly some memory.

Generally, I agree, though... Win2k made Windows usable, XP was actually pretty good.
posted by weston at 7:45 PM on September 30, 2009


Desktop Linux users strike me as the militant atheists. They argue that people are wasting their time and money with the other OSes, and that people should "opt out" of the commercial software industry with a FOSS system. And they emphasize personal responsibility and self reliance over dependence on far away developers ("If you want the damn feature so bad, code it yourself!"). Plus, like the one guy you knew in college who said that one day religion would just be a bad memory, Linux users always talk about how we're just two or three years away from the "Year of the Linux Desktop."

Disclosure: I use a 2 1/2 year old MacBook Pro as my laptop and game machine (via Boot Camp, which I guess is like going to the Catholic church for Christmas and Easter, while staying with the Presbyterians the rest of the year), and at home I run Ubuntu on a six-year old home-built "game machine" which is on its last legs. I like Macs for laptops because they are lightweight, well made, and the OS works really well with the hardware. If I can't build a system myself, and I'm going to be moving it every day, it needs to be built right and come with good repair. Macs provide that. For home, I build my own desktops as needed. As the Mac can still run L4D and TF2, I have no need for that yet.

I haven't considered the option of building a desktop Hackintosh, but I think I'd give it a try, given modern hardware. It'd have to at least dual boot Windows for games, though.

If I "grow out of" PC gaming within about 2 years, I probably will just keep using the same Macbook Pro until it wears out. There's not really too much outside of games that really calls for much more power for my needs.
posted by mccarty.tim at 7:46 PM on September 30, 2009


I would love for somebody to make a computer so good it makes me hate my Macs.
posted by Caviar at 7:56 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


What's weird about this debate is that so much of the talking points are stuck in the 90's. Ever since the early 00's, computers have been pretty stable, what with Windows XP and OSX 10.1 and later. "Not crashing" is no longer a unique feature, but people still brag about it. These days, on either system, crashing is usually a third-party software or driver issue.

Anyway, my theory is that Moore's Law is already advancing at a velocity faster than Cola Wars' rhetoric can keep up. Within 10-20 years, we'll be having stupid arguments over which robotic overlord is better, when by the time we finish our sentences both units will have become obsolete and recycled into the Cluster of the Depreciated.

For the record, I'm choosing OS/2 Warp as my robotic overlord.
posted by mccarty.tim at 7:57 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


+1 tim.

OS/2 was fun. I even learned REXX. Sigh. RT-11 was my first love though.
posted by bonehead at 8:10 PM on September 30, 2009


did you really not upgrade just because you didn't like how the new dock looks?

That and other shitty interface tweaks and the lack of cool features that would be of interest to me. A couple other computers in the house have it and I haven't noticed anything great about it, but the shitty looking interface grabs my attention every damn time. A shelf? A weird glowing ball to indicate which app is open? Coloring the menu bar with a the desktop pattern? WTF Steve?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 PM on September 30, 2009


And stacks? I want to find who thought that shit up and ban them from using a computer forever. That's just unforgivable.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:17 PM on September 30, 2009


Really? I think its a bit of a stretch to say that most windows users replace their laptop every year.

In my experience? It's true -- average life of a Windows notebook on the road is 9-18 months. Most of them just fall to bits. There's really two classes of them -- Thinkpads, and Everything Else. IBM Thinkpads ran, everything else died quickly on the road. Esp. HP notebooks. Gawd, those are CRAP.

Note -- a notebook that gets placed on the desk and never moved probably would fare much better. But then you're an idiot for wasting the money -- you'd have gotten a far better machine for the money if you'd gotten a desktop. Notebooks are meant to be moved -- it's why we cope with the many weaknesses they have -- it's why I accepted even more sacrifices with the Macbook Air -- the lack of mass is such a huge win that the limited CPU is easy to cope with.**

But it's not just build. OS X has gotten *faster* with each revision. 10.6 is actually smaller on disk. Those who went from 2K to XP or worse, XP to Vista, suddenly found themselves with an unbearably slow machine. The TiBook ran 10.4.11 just fine -- with a 400MHz processor.

** I fly segment 83 and 84 for the year tomorrow. That notebook flies every mile I do. The fact that is shaved three pounds off the bag when I switched to it from the not-heavy 12" AlBook is a huge win.
posted by eriko at 8:37 PM on September 30, 2009


rokusan: "You're using some alternate universe version of "shuffle"."

My desire is for the 'shuffle' setting to follow the playlist. That is, I want some playlists to be shuffled and others not to be, without having to toggle the (global) 'shuffle' setting on my iPod.

(Really, I want all my playlists to be 'shuffle', but when I select an album from Artists->Albums, I want it to play in-order, unshuffled.)

And again, hippybear's observation holds true for iTunes 9, and I actually think it was true at least as far back as iTunes 7. But it does not carry over to the iPods synced with a given iTunes setup; the iPods ignore the 'shuffle' flag that iTunes stores in the playlist.

The only options I'm passing to hdiutil create are -srcfolder and -ov. The partition-scheme is Apple in both the 'good' (built on Leopard) and 'bad' (built on Snow Leopard) .DMG files.

This hdiutil command is being run from a shell script under Xcode, so it's possible that I'm running some wacko binary in a directory that Xcode has shoved into $PATH, or that Xcode is setting some environment variable or some damned thing.

You Linux jokers, I'll mix it up with you, too. I remember how long it took to get my mouse wheel to work.

Oh, also, my loathing is equal-opportunity, I excoriated Visual Studio and praised Xcode (while excoriating Xcode and praising Visual Studio) in another thread a while back.
posted by Rat Spatula at 8:47 PM on September 30, 2009


If Mac users are Catholics and Windows users are Reformation Protestants, I presume Linux users are Pentecostals: they talk in tongues, make a lot of noise, and nobody can understand what they are raving about.

echo "zrna? lbh Wungrire qb" | awk '{print $3" "$4" "$2" "$1}' | tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'
posted by roystgnr at 8:48 PM on September 30, 2009 [6 favorites]


The lack of cool features

That's fair, even though I <3 Time Machine like so much. Overall, though, the look is better, mostly due to the black only menu-bar icons and the new window style that very clearly distinguishes between foreground and background apps in a very pleasing way. Once I turned all the crappy stuff off I had a bit of trouble going back to tiger (though it's not as jarring as using a leopard mac by someone who kept the horribleness, I admit. God, what is Steve Jobs on?).
posted by The Devil Tesla at 8:56 PM on September 30, 2009


Regexes aren't talking in tongues, roystgnr. They should be a requirement for everyone to learn.
posted by sonic meat machine at 8:59 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


A shelf? A weird glowing ball to indicate which app is open? Coloring the menu bar with a the desktop pattern? WTF Steve?! And stacks? I want to find who thought that shit up and ban them from using a computer forever. That's just unforgivable.

I like stacks and the coloured ball... Stacks help me organise and navigate shortcuts for folders I use regularly, and how else are you going to visually represent currently active programs? Make the icon slightly larger than the inactive programs? Actually I like that idea, but I still don't hate the coloured ball, it's useful.

As for the transparent menu bar, that can be turned off. No-one is putting a gun to your head to use Stacks, and I'm certain theres a command to turn off the coloured ball.

Woo customisation!
posted by a. at 9:01 PM on September 30, 2009


Regexes aren't talking in tongues, roystgnr. They should be a requirement for everyone to learn.
posted by sonic meat machine at 12:59 PM on October 1 [+] [!]


And people wonder why Linux hasn't hit the mainstream yet.
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:52 PM on September 30, 2009


Something I don't understand about Macs is the fact that everything costs money. Text editors, archiving programs, image format converters... it's like PCs in the early nineties, back when there used to be shareware catalogs. Except that Mac OS X is a Unix-based operating system and there are five hundred free alternatives to all of the $30 shareware.

TextEdit... comes with every Mac.
Preview... comes with every Mac.
Time Machine... comes with every Mac.
Right click on any file and select "compress"... comes with every Mac.

Plus the 500 free alternatives you mentioned.
posted by danny the boy at 10:02 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


Being able to watch MPEG movies full-screen... doesn't come free with every Mac. :-P

(okay, okay. if you import them into itunes it does, now. but it didnt before itunes supported video! the whole quicktime pro thing has been an absolute debacle)
posted by jock@law at 10:15 PM on September 30, 2009


Boys have a PC. Girls have a Macgina.

This trolling line has never failed me ... and its true.
posted by vicx at 10:18 PM on September 30, 2009


Is there not a VLC for Mac? Because I have a hard time understanding why people use anything else for playback.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:20 PM on September 30, 2009


There is. VLC kinda sucks though...
posted by jock@law at 10:24 PM on September 30, 2009


jock@law: "There is. VLC kinda sucks though..."

Blasphemer!
posted by aerotive at 10:29 PM on September 30, 2009


QT Pro features are built into Snow Leopard. You can use QuickTime Player, DVD Player, iTunes, VLC, Flash and other players to view video. Lots of choice.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:29 PM on September 30, 2009


Yes, but Apple's not letting you do that, you had to circumvent their copy protection.

There's no copy protection on OS X, but finding the right drivers for odd PC hardware is a bit of a chore, definitely. Then again, it's not Apple's job to make drivers for other people's hardware, so I can't blame them. (I'm running OS/X on an HP netbook because there's no Apple-made alternative (yet). Yes, this violates Apple's terms of use. So do four hundred other things we all do on our computers every day.)

If I didn't hate Microsoft for all their other shenanigans, all that holographic sticker serial number licensing Genuine Advantage activation bullcrap would have pushed me over the edge.

OS X installations don't even have serial numbers. Apple sells a single-user and a five-user "family" pack of the OS, but it's all on the honor system: there's no checking.

It's silly to argue about OS's, anyway. I use Windows (hate it, generally, but it's good for games), Linux (decent, but too much fiddling necessary), OSX (like it, generally, most things really do 'just work') and a bunch of server OS's regularly. They all have plus/minuses. Apple's not perfect by a long shot, but it's definitely the slickest and most-stable of the 'consumer' OSes in my experience.

And I don't get the 'lack of free software' thing. Not only does there seem to be just as much freeware and shareware for Win and Mac, on my Macs at least I'm not afraid to download and install pretty much anything without fear of spyware, malware, viruses or something else that will toast my computer. That's worth something.
posted by rokusan at 10:32 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


"There is. VLC kinda sucks though..."

VLC works fine on Macs. I have to use it once and awhile for some exotic, unexpected codec, though QuickTime + Perian covers a good 99% of files.

As a weird port, though, VLC's UI is semi-crazy, and it doesn't play nice with Front Row, nor with the Apple remote. Whenever I tap "rewind" because I didn't hear a line of dialogue, it jumps back to the 0:00 start of the movie, and I curse loudly.
posted by rokusan at 10:44 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Each version of OS X since about 10.1 has gotten faster on the same hardware than the version before, which is a pretty special thing in this age of bloatware.

And yeah, upgrading to Snow Leopard and finding 9Gb of extra free space on my hard drive that wasn't there before scared the crap out of me for a moment, before I realized it was a feature. New versions of an OS getting both faster and smaller is pretty sweet.
posted by rokusan at 10:46 PM on September 30, 2009 [2 favorites]


yeah vlc works fine but the UI is in fact craptastic. why do i need two windows to watch movies again? thanks...
posted by jock@law at 10:49 PM on September 30, 2009


And yeah, upgrading to Snow Leopard and finding 9Gb of extra free space on my hard drive that wasn't there before scared the crap out of me for a moment, before I realized it was a feature. New versions of an OS getting both faster and smaller is pretty sweet.

Not reccomended for PowerPC.
posted by Artw at 11:27 PM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]


Every OS sucks.
posted by normy at 11:30 PM on September 30, 2009


Not reccomended for PowerPC.

How is this relevant? The last PowerPC Macs were released in 2006, and those bought in that year were bought knowing that the Intel switch was happening. This is a little soon, but considering that a majority of the new technologies would not be worthwhile to develop for PowerPC (like 64-bit stuff that wouldn't even work on those macs) there has been very little backlash from actual Mac owners.
posted by The Devil Tesla at 11:58 PM on September 30, 2009


Not reccomended for PowerPC.

Also sucks on a 486.
posted by rokusan at 1:11 AM on October 1, 2009


Not reccomended for PowerPC.

You're absolutely right. Good luck upgrading versions of Windows Mobile for any given PocketPC. It was not very nice of Microsoft and Toshiba, for example, to work hand-in-hand to build in obsolescence in their two-year-old product. Still, fuck Apple for dropping PPC after eight years of Mac OS X upgrades, amirite?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:33 AM on October 1, 2009


Surely the fact that anybody has got the slightest bit upset with Brooker's article is proof that he was right?
posted by salmacis at 2:16 AM on October 1, 2009


I think Microsoft missed a trick in around 2002/2003 by not running ads spinning Windows as the solid mainstream choice for regular people and Mac users as effete, probably disloyal cosmopolitanist snobs

Don't worry, Apple is doing it for them right now with the John Hodgman as PC vs some insufferably dim twit as Mac ads.

I use both, and the big difference to me is that I can resolve all the issues I have with Windows myself. Mac? Nope, gotta take it to the shop, and they probably can't fix it either...although they are quite careful to charge as if they did.

My girlfriend is a Mac fanatic, even though all her Macs are broken and she can't afford to buy a new one, nor has the money she's poured into the broken ones gotten her any sugar. Maybe I'll rig her a Hackintosh next time I get some sweet OT money.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 3:23 AM on October 1, 2009


Regexes aren't talking in tongues, roystgnr. They should be a requirement for everyone to learn.
posted by sonic meat machine at 12:59 PM on October 1 [+] [!]

And people wonder why Linux hasn't hit the mainstream yet.
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:52 PM on September 30


I use regexes on every system I work on regularly, including a Mac. I count regular expressions among the most powerful things I know how to do on a computer; they are useful on a weekly basis to solve problems for other people quickly and easily, and on a daily basis to help me do my job.

If you work with text and you don't know how to use regular expressions, you are not an efficient worker.
posted by sonic meat machine at 5:58 AM on October 1, 2009


<Wonders which part of what roystgnr typed is being mistaken for regular expressions... supposes it must be the character-range arguments to tr...>
posted by Rat Spatula at 6:02 AM on October 1, 2009


God, platform chauvinism is boring.
posted by clvrmnky at 6:09 AM on October 1, 2009


You can, and I have, run Windows on a Mac.

The same is not true the other way around. You can't run OSX on a PC.

THEREFORE. The Mac is better because you have the choice of whether you want to use Windows, or an actual operating system that works.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:15 AM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]


Rat Spatula: It is. My mistake. When I posted it, my brain had atrophied from staring at InDesign all day long.
posted by sonic meat machine at 6:35 AM on October 1, 2009


Windows is like New York:Mac OS X is like Toronto:posted by oaf at 7:11 AM on October 1, 2009 [4 favorites]


There is something ritualistically predictable about operating system wars these days. It's rather like watching a professional sports match, but without the homosexual subtext and eye candy.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:14 AM on October 1, 2009


One thing that always amuses me is when I use my work Macbook, people wonder what I did to make the interface look so different and nifty. Then I tell them it's KDE4, and that I'm running Gentoo Linux, which gets confused looks, and usually, "Oh...?"

Sometimes I'll be in Windows, and they'll wonder why. At which point I say, "Well, I like the Zune Desktop software a lot more. Also, Notepad++ is free, while TextMate isn't."

Honestly, the rabidness of the OS wars is a wee bit tiresome. At home I have all three running, which works fine for me; I just tend to stay on the Windows and Linux machines more because of the GUI conventions.
posted by qcubed at 8:11 AM on October 1, 2009


THEREFORE. The Mac is better because you have the choice of whether you want to use Windows, or an actual operating system that works.

THIS IS DUMB. Windows works fine. I haven't had one crash on my many, many Windows computers for years, except when hardware completely failed. If I don't need to run two OSs - and most people don't - why should I pay twice as much for the privilege?

There are plenty of arguments to be made that OS X is nicer, or more elegant, or whatever, but at this point that's about it. Making these kinds of arguments is as dumb as dissing Macs for a one-button mouse.
posted by me & my monkey at 8:22 AM on October 1, 2009


It's rather like watching a professional sports match, but without the homosexual subtext and eye candy.

Speak for yourself
posted by jtron at 8:26 AM on October 1, 2009


How can you hate an inanimate object?

It doesn't seem very hard. Anyway, apple is a company, not an object.

--

Anyway, I use Vista and it's fine. I honestly have no idea what people are bitching about constantly. It's like they're autopilot from Windows 95 or something. In fact, Vista has one fantastic feature, the "previous versions" of files and folders that allows you to retrieve old versions of files if they get deleted or messed up somehow. It's totally saved me a couple of times. And I like the cheesy 3d windows as well. It has no glaring defects that I've noticed.

I realize some people were upset about needing to authorize various things all the time when it first came out. But at some point they put out an update that allowed you to 'don't ask me again for this program' and since then I hardly ever see one of those dialogs. And at the same time I know that apps won't run with administrator level privilege unless I authorize it, which is nice.

Obviously when you switch from one OS to another one, like from OS X to Vista, it's going to be unfamiliar, and, if you're impatient it will be annoying. But Mac users just come across as totally unwilling to adapt. They've convinced themselves that doing things the way they're used to do is easier not because it's familiar but because it's "intuitive." It's stupid.

And the guy who says he's never met a Mac evangelist just comes across as detached from reality.
I buy Mac notebooks because I save money. I've owed three, a Rev B TiBook, a 12" PowerBook G4, and now the Air. The first two lasted four years *each*, still work, and were only retired because they were starting to get beat up.
What does that even mean? Don't most people replace their computers because they become obsolete, rather then because they fail? I still have the PC I built in 2000, and I only built a new one when the primary hard drive started to fail (which is unavoidable with mechanical Hard Drives and of course happens to macs too. In fact, the hard drives used in PCs and macs are the same). The hard drive could be replaced for $30. I also have a laptop I bought in 2001 and it works fine.

I have a PC now that I expect will still be pretty decent in 4 years. It's got 8 CPU cores and 12 gigabytes of ram (expandable to 48), and it only cost $1,200 to build (with 4gb at the time) A similarly spec'd mac costs $3,200 today and wasn't even available when I built it.

At the same time, obviously PC makers can make windows machines that are underpowered and crappy, I guess, which would result in a pretty bad user experience.
I have to say I bought an EEEPC for law school and at this point I'm desperate for something that has some good note taking software which is apparently missing from linux.
If you want to go out of the box on Linux you're really going to have to learn a lot about how it works. I'm not sure what you're looking for but you can get Open Office for Linux. You can also use a text editor like Nano. You can also get netbooks with Windows XP nowadays though, including upgraded eePCs.
The same is not true the other way around. You can't run OSX on a PC.

THEREFORE. The Mac is better because you have the choice of whether you want to use Windows, or an actual operating system that works.
Did you miss all the posts from people running OSX on cheap PC hardware in this thread?
posted by delmoi at 8:28 AM on October 1, 2009


I like pancakes.
posted by WalterMitty at 8:28 AM on October 1, 2009


I like pancakes.

Some things should be kept secret, Mitty.
posted by mazola at 8:53 AM on October 1, 2009


I was a diehard Mac fanatic in the 90's.

You're doing it wrong.
posted by mazola at 8:55 AM on October 1, 2009


my brain had atrophied from staring at InDesign

Bro-han, the Adobe thread is over here.

I say things like "bro-han" in a vain attempt to distract people from my pedantry.

posted by Rat Spatula at 8:55 AM on October 1, 2009


delmoi: But Mac users just come across as totally unwilling to adapt. They've convinced themselves that doing things the way they're used to do is easier not because it's familiar but because it's "intuitive." It's stupid.

Um, bwah? Is this the same Mac community that has embraced Boot Camp, VMWare, Parallels, VirtualBox, and the command line with open arms? If anything, it's been a long time since I've met a mac user who was not fluent in multiple operating systems given the lack of OS X support in many workplaces.

Certainly there is no lack of people who scream about user interface changes. I remember when we deployed the new version of Office with a very different look and feel. Plenty of users bawled at the changes.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:18 AM on October 1, 2009


I like pancakes.

I like waffles better than pancakes. Really, it's hard for me to see why you even tolerate eating pancakes. Have you heard about Belgian waffles?
posted by fuq at 9:27 AM on October 1, 2009


Making these kinds of arguments is as dumb as dissing Macs for a one-button mouse.

...which is indeed foolish, because the mouse that ships with Macs these days has left click, right click, scroll wheel, and wheel click all standard.
posted by hippybear at 9:27 AM on October 1, 2009


You can, and I have, run Windows on a Mac. The same is not true the other way around. You can't run OSX on a PC.

Sure you can, it's just a lot more work and hassle to do so, since you have to fight with drivers and such, things you don't need to worry about in Mac-land.
posted by rokusan at 9:32 AM on October 1, 2009


hippybear: But it's easier to make a pancake in the shape of the old one-button mice, especially the infamous hockey-puck mice.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:14 AM on October 1, 2009


I like pancakes.

I like waffles better than pancakes.


You know you're both just stooging for Big Agra Carbohydrate-types right? Break free of your oppressive carborate masters! Enjoy free (as in range) eggs and 100-mile home-smoked bacon. Who can resist bacon, hmm? It's easy, just one little bite...
posted by bonehead at 10:16 AM on October 1, 2009


I have to say I bought an EEEPC for law school and at this point I'm desperate for something that has some good note taking software which is apparently missing from linux.

Tomboy, Gnote, Google Notebook, TiddlyWiki?
posted by pwicks at 10:22 AM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]


Well, here's the thing, George: I got those results from OSX without having to treat my operating system like a plutonium-dusted squirrel on crystal meth.

Excuse me. Did something go over your head?
posted by Neiltupper at 11:02 AM on October 1, 2009


Oh yeah, here's what I hate about Macs: what app am I in right now? There's a tiny icon up at the top of the screen, but I don't recognize it. Oh....I thought I closed that app...

Intuitive interface my ass.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 11:34 AM on October 1, 2009


Oh yeah, here's what I hate about Macs: what app am I in right now? There's a tiny icon up at the top of the screen, but I don't recognize it. Oh....I thought I closed that app...

The first menu after the Apple menu bears the name of the application you're in, and you're complaining about an icon in the top corner of the screen? When was the last time you used a Mac?

You might as well be complaining about how MultiFinder crashes a lot.
posted by oaf at 11:59 AM on October 1, 2009 [9 favorites]


DAMN! I didn't know about these Windows 7 Launch parties. How come no one invited me to one?
posted by cowpattybingo at 12:04 PM on October 1, 2009


The first Brooker link has him complaining about running Vista on a Sony Vaio. That was a known problem, right? I say "was" because Sony got fixes out pretty quick even though Brooker obviously never got the memo. He also never got the memo about Macs supporting two-button mice (mouses?) in the earlier column that was linked. See, this was just a filler column, a comedy bit that he could knock out in his sleep and still have it read and quoted because some people are so invested in this stuff. He wasn't serious. He isn't so stupid, okay?
I had never heard of the Vista Party video until this thread. I clicked on one of the links and (after noting that they were using a Sony Vaio just to show that there won't be any problems this time) I misheard some of the dialogue. I thought it had to be a spoof. ("Install Win 7 a few days before." Because it takes that long? rimshot!) Then when they got around to the photos and stuff, I expected porn. I think an earlier poster had it right; this is just a great big Microsoft nudgenudge winkwink. Having a party? Want to make videos? Show them back? Heh heh. It's like that feature in IE that allows you to remove selected sites from your viewing history. "Security", says Microsoft all serious and stuff. Right. I'm so sure.
So I don't think this is a shitasmic video at all; I think it's a purposely vapid text so banal and empty, that the viewer must supply content and context. There's other possibilities besides the orgy angle. Suppose we had a party for, oh, Islamic radicals? Or Acorn organizers? Or Teabaggers? This is art. Apple never did anything this cool.
posted by CCBC at 2:22 PM on October 1, 2009


i'm better than everybody because i equally love my pcs AND my macbook AND my debian server.
Suck. It. Bitches.

If you can't beat em, use em all.
posted by cbecker333 at 3:14 PM on October 1, 2009


When was the last time you used a Mac?

It's true, the ones at my house are all broken now...but we were running some flavor of OSX. I still had that problem of remembering that even though there's not an open window, some app or other is running. You know, because Macs are so intuitive.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 4:10 PM on October 1, 2009


Well, the only intuitive interface is the human nipple. And even then...

I don't find process management under OSX to be much worse than under other windowing systems.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 4:19 PM on October 1, 2009


I still had that problem of remembering that even though there's not an open window, some app or other is running

Well, if you look down at the dock, there's an indicator under the icon of every application that's currently running, even if there aren't any windows open.

I don't think this is necessarily intuitive or not. I can't speak for what would make more sense to someone who had never used a modern windowing system before, but it took me essentially no time at all to figure it out when I switched after being a lifelong Windows user
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 4:25 PM on October 1, 2009


Just to throw some gas on the fire.

At least as far as I can tell, batshit crazy Macintosh advocacy had its high water mark with the classic operating system. Nowadays when these wars develop, the batshit crazy seems to come from Apple critics by a margin of 5-1. And they all have exaggerated claims, an ignorance of Apple computers made in the last 5 years, and lurid stories of how they were snubbed, snubbed by some hot chick using a macbook at Starbucks.

We are talking on the same order of crazy as people who create web sites to document their improbably violent confrontations telling off fans of Twilight.

As far as crazy goes, it's a relatively benign one but it's still annoying and makes it really difficult to occasionally talk about Mac stuff on some parts of the internet.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 5:37 PM on October 1, 2009 [3 favorites]


I just zapped my pram.
posted by hellphish at 6:13 PM on October 1, 2009


I still had that problem of remembering that even though there's not an open window, some app or other is running. You know, because Macs are so intuitive.

Well, we've established that you never use Pidgin, Skype, or Windows Update. Given that you don't use Windows Update, how do you know your antivirus program is running?
posted by oaf at 7:13 PM on October 1, 2009


Your antivirus program is running? You'd better go catch it.
posted by Caviar at 7:31 AM on October 5, 2009


The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. Everything else is learned.
posted by signal at 8:06 AM on October 5, 2009


Would that count as one button or two?
posted by mazola at 8:32 AM on October 5, 2009 [2 favorites]


Revealing Mac OS X's Hidden Single-Application Mode
posted by Artw at 3:45 PM on October 6, 2009


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