No meat, no dairy, no problem
October 2, 2009 12:36 PM Subscribe

VeganMoFo 2009! Started as a riff on NaNoWriMo, Veganmofo challenges food blogs to go vegan for October. Kitteekake is hosting the index. If you've ever been curious about vegan cooking, it's a damn fine place to start. via.

Feel free to highlight your favorites. I think I'm going to make a modified version of this tomorrow for lunch.

posted by klangklangston (246 comments total) 17 users marked this as a favorite

NaNoWriMo is no BiMonSciFiCon.
posted by Stonewall Jackson at 12:38 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

Well, I think it's great that there should be a whole lot of (hopefully) good vegan recipes coming out. I could do without references to "the awesome power of veganism" though. If you're trying to convert me then do it with taste first, and ideology later.
posted by scrutiny at 12:48 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

I'm waiting for Eat An Entire Tube Of Toothpaste Per Day March, or EaeEnTooPaPeDaMar.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:48 PM on October 2, 2009 [6 favorites]

I think I'm going to make a modified version of this tomorrow for lunch.

That looks really good, but I think you're right to plan to modify it. It would totally be even better if you sauteed just a little pancetta or guanciale in olive oil before adding the soffritto, used homemade chicken stock instead of veggie stock, simmered the soup with a small piece of parmesan rind in it, and served it with a little pecorino romano grated over the top.

I'm just sayin'
posted by dersins at 12:52 PM on October 2, 2009 [12 favorites]

EaeEnTooPaPeDaMar.

This looks like it might actually mean something in French Flemish.
posted by weston at 12:55 PM on October 2, 2009

I'm a big lover of both meat and dairy, but over the past few months I have greatly overhauled my diet and nutrition and am always looking for ways to fine tune it. I can't see even going a month being vegan, but if I find enough interesting recipes over the next few days, I may give it a shot for a week.
posted by Slack-a-gogo at 1:02 PM on October 2, 2009

Veganism is really unhealthy. Will the blogs mention that?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:03 PM on October 2, 2009 [5 favorites]

Astro Zombie: "I'm waiting for Eat An Entire Tube Of Toothpaste Per Day March, or EaeEnTooPaPeDaMar."

aka violent shits, vomiting and fluoride poisioning march, vishivofluopoma
posted by boo_radley at 1:04 PM on October 2, 2009

Unlikely, Room317. Unless you’d also like them to mention the moon is made of cheese.
posted by joeclark at 1:05 PM on October 2, 2009 [5 favorites]

Veganism is really unhealthy. Will the blogs mention that?

Citation please?

I dig dairy products too much to seriously consider veganism (call me in 50 years when they figure out how to make a good vegan cheese or ice cream), but it's not inherently unhealthy. Vegan zealots definitely over-emphasize the health benefits, and over-demonize animal products, but it's a far cry from unhealthy!
posted by explosion at 1:12 PM on October 2, 2009 [5 favorites]

Veganism is really unhealthy. Will the blogs mention that?

I predict that doctors across America would be overjoyed if more of us omnivores decided to drop dairy and meat products from our lives.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:19 PM on October 2, 2009

(at least for a month!)
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:19 PM on October 2, 2009

You want me to cite the food pyramid? Really?

How about this link?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:19 PM on October 2, 2009

Are they trying to encourage or discourage people from veganism? Because I'm pretty sure if you want to encourage people to become vegan, you should shield them from the reality (moral superiority aside) as much as possible.
posted by shownomercy at 1:23 PM on October 2, 2009

Lucky for me, every day is It's-Good-To-Eat-Bacon day.
posted by mhoye at 1:32 PM on October 2, 2009 [5 favorites]

I can't wait for CaCaMo (camel case month.)
posted by Rhomboid at 1:32 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

You want me to cite the food pyramid? Really?

How about this link?

I'm not a vegan, but I know many who are, and are quite healthy to boot. One guy in particular is quite muscular, rather the antithesis of malnourished vegan you might be imagining. Here's a vegan food pyramid, and an article on "growng vegans," from birth to adolescence. It seems like the "vegan baby killers" you linked were just dumb about how they fed their newborn. From the link: A vegan couple was sentenced Wednesday to life in prison in the death of their malnourished 6-week-old, who was fed a diet largely consisting of soy milk and apple juice. Strike the fact they're vegan from the prior sentence, and they're simply negligent parents.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:34 PM on October 2, 2009 [10 favorites]

How about this link?

Soy milk and apple juice? That's not exactly veganism.

Many vegans will only eat soy on rare occasions.
posted by ageispolis at 1:36 PM on October 2, 2009

"That looks really good, but I think you're right to plan to modify it. It would totally be even better if you sauteed just a little pancetta or guanciale in olive oil before adding the soffritto, used homemade chicken stock instead of veggie stock, simmered the soup with a small piece of parmesan rind in it, and served it with a little pecorino romano grated over the top."

Actually, I was going to use fresh tomatoes instead of canned (I can roast 'em myself, though if I hold off until Sunday, I can buy cherokees, which will be even better, I think), probably use a different, but still vegan, stock, and probably use shallots instead of onions.

I'm not vegan, but I don't mind eating vegan.
posted by klangklangston at 1:38 PM on October 2, 2009

Veganism is really unhealthy. Will the blogs mention that?

What an outrageous thing to say. Veganism is not inherently healthy or unhealthy. In fact, veganism has really nothing to do with health or nutrition at all. I have found that generally vegans tend to be healthier and eat healthier - i.e. lots more plants, etc., but this not so much about their veganism as much as it is that vegans tend to lead conscious, healthy lives. As we all know correlation is not causation, and I know a great many meat-eaters who eat incredibly healthy as well.

That said, I wouldn't recommend feeding an infant soy milk and apple juice. I wouldn't blame that on veganism inherently as much as ridiculous parenting. THAT said, i love that there is one or two articles on the internet about a vegan child being unhealthy - but zillions of studies regarding obese children raised on McDonald's.

I promise not to get on my vegan high-horse. But don't spread fear-mongering nonsense, room17.
posted by Lutoslawski at 1:40 PM on October 2, 2009 [15 favorites]

Also, guys, not to threadsit or anything, but the whole "Veganism is unhealthy!" is bullshit and we all know it, so could we knock off that derail? Do I have to give more recipes in order to have something else to talk about?
posted by klangklangston at 1:40 PM on October 2, 2009

I predict that doctors across America would be overjoyed if more of us omnivores decided to drop dairy and meat products from our lives.

Actually, I think doctors would be more overjoyed if people eliminated wheat and sugar from their diet. I can give you a whole diatribe about how it's the insulin response that actually leads to clogged arteries and health problems, not cholesterol or whatever else people claim. Guess what raises insulin levels? Simple carbs and sugars. Eat your meats and veggies folks they're good for you. But this doesn't mean I'm dogging on vegans. If you've got a reason to not eat meat, fine. I don't share that reason, but I'm still interested in the vegan recipes because, hey, I like veggies a whole helluva a lot and am always glad for more of them. I don't particularly care for the weird processed stuff like Tofurky or any other such nonsense though.
posted by scrutiny at 1:44 PM on October 2, 2009

I predict that doctors across America would be overjoyed if more of us omnivores decided to drop dairy and meat products from our lives.

PMRC != mainstream medicine, or "doctors" unqualified.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:45 PM on October 2, 2009

Er, PCRM. Got two types of douchebag mixed up.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:46 PM on October 2, 2009

right on klangklangston (and filthy light thief). This list of 100 vegan foods is making my mouth water.
posted by Lutoslawski at 1:46 PM on October 2, 2009

I think that this is awesome. Always like to see more vegan recipes to use. And I was vegan for three years and was never healthier.
posted by josher71 at 1:50 PM on October 2, 2009

Would just like to say that this is an awesome idea, and recommend that people check out http://www.fatfreevegan.com/ with which I am not associated in any way, unless you count cooking every damn thing on her blog. Awesome tasty stuff.
posted by Aversion Therapy at 1:51 PM on October 2, 2009

A 1999 metastudy compared five major studies from western countries. The study found that the mortality ratio was the lowest in fish eaters (0.82) followed by vegetarians (0.84) and occasional meat eaters (0.84), and was then followed by regular meat eaters (1.0) and vegans (1.0).

The study was adjusted only for sex and smoking. But as far as revealing any interesting or significant data? No. There are way too many other factors, e.g. exercise, genetics, environment, career - to say nothing of the fact that the actual diets of all of the subjects aren't listed or described anywhere (that I can find). If I'm a vegan and I eat french fries only, never get off the couch, and live in Detroit, I will probably die an early death.
posted by Lutoslawski at 1:52 PM on October 2, 2009

Though I respect the vegan perspective, I also see it as continuing to increase the gap between humans and nature.

In the only future I can see people will be vegan because the animals will be gone.

Though I live in the city now, I have raised, named and eaten my own pigs, chickens and cows. (The cow was part of a co-operative effort between a couple of hobby farms.)

Because I live in San Francisco, it is possible for me to eat animals that are raised humanely, then killed and eaten. To me the important aspect of life isn't how you die, but how you live, and that includes the lives of the animals that people eat.

Anyone unprepared to get to know an animal, then kill it and eat it should be a vegetarian, possibly vegan.
posted by poe at 1:53 PM on October 2, 2009 [3 favorites]

Oh and for the record, I don't know ANYONE who is vegan for any claimed health benefits, so enough already. It's an ethical choice, not a health choice.
posted by Aversion Therapy at 1:56 PM on October 2, 2009 [3 favorites]

Do we have to do this every time there's a vegan thread? Seriously, do we have to?

I wanted to look at some recipes. That's all I wanted to do when I checked out this link and thread. I thought there might be some fun suggestions.

Do we have to do this again?

So, on that note, I at least am going to try to move on to food suggestions ...

Whoever upthread was talking about vegan cheese and ice cream. There've been a lot of pretty amazing products that have come out in just the last few years, and if you're used to the older stuff you may not be aware of what's out there now.

For cheese, you might want to take a look at Daiya Vegan Cheese. It's *very* new, but it melts like cheese, tastes like cheese, has the texture of cheese -- and good cheese at that. It is the first vegan cheese I have encountered that is this good, and I've tried a lot; it's pretty remarkable if you're used to even the better kinds that were available before, like Follow Your Heart.

As for ice cream, there's actually quite a lot of vegan ice cream out there that's indistinguishable from nonvegan ice cream. The old days of gritty Rice Dream being the only option are long past. Soy Delicious gets high marks from me, and Tofutti now makes really good ice cream sandwiches.
posted by kyrademon at 1:56 PM on October 2, 2009 [14 favorites]

Lucky for me, every day is It's-Good-To-Eat-Bacon day.

I'm with you. If being vegan means a life without gravy and/or bacon, count me out.

I could do without references to "the awesome power of veganism" though. If you're trying to convert me then do it with taste first, and ideology later.

Because I'm pretty sure if you want to encourage people to become vegan, you should shield them from the reality (moral superiority aside) as much as possible.

I am all for more veggies and grains in meals and such. It's the absolutism and the moral superiority folk that keep me from really enjoying a good vegan meal. It's too bad the food gets a bad rap because of some ultra-vegan evangelists. It's my bad luck that almost all the people I know who can make some real kickass food, without using meat, have to be all holier-than-thou about it.

I want to give the food a try on it's own, and not have to be lectured about how my colon is a post-apocalyptic wasteland and I'm some carniverous leper that should be scolded for his ways, thank you.

We need more non-proselytizing vegans, is what I'm saying. If only to counteract the bad stereotype in my head.
posted by chambers at 1:59 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

Do we have to do this every time there's a vegan thread? Seriously, do we have to?

No. Let's not.

For cheese, you might want to take a look at Daiya Vegan Cheese

Thanks! Cheese has been, hands down, the thing I miss the most from my non-vegan days. And vegan cheese, generally, sucks. I have found that lots of vegan cheeses are ok if you melt them, like you can make a decent grilled cheese. But I'll have to try this cheese.

For ice cream - nothing is better than coconut milk ice cream. Seriously. It's better than regular ice cream. It's made in Eugene so I don't know if it's widely available, but Coconut Bliss is crack.
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:00 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

kyrademon, I've never heard of Daiya. It must not be available here yet. I've eaten Follow Your Heart for several years now and always found it to be quite delicious.

I also agree on the ice cream part - If you've never tried Good Karma, you should! I think it is a branch of Rice Dream, but doesn't taste anything like it. Thick, rich, creamy. (I'm not entirely sure it is part of Rice Dream though.)
posted by Malice at 2:01 PM on October 2, 2009

In the only future I can see people will be vegan because the animals will be gone.

Never forget that people are animals as well. As long as we exist, we'll have a supply of animal protein. Just ask Cormac McCarthy.
posted by kuujjuarapik at 2:01 PM on October 2, 2009

Good to know the gritty rice dream is gone. I was vegan in the 90s and the sweets options then were pretty shitty.
posted by josher71 at 2:05 PM on October 2, 2009

For vegan cheese, while I haven't tried this, I heard good things about it from the friends who ate it at Ypsilanti's Shadow Art Fair.

(Just so I don't get any suspicions from the MeFi detective squad, I interviewed the woman behind that Scrumpdilly blog about five or six years ago about something else, and her husband used to book music at a bar I used to cover; I've kept up with her stuff on and off, but I don't want to seem like I'm flogging it beyond what it deserves.)
posted by klangklangston at 2:05 PM on October 2, 2009

I know what I think "MoFo" stands for, but I suspect it ain't the same thing they do. What are they talking about?
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:06 PM on October 2, 2009

Actually it looks like Coconut Bliss is pretty widely available. I recommend it purely for its taste and quality to vegans and non-vegans alike.

We need more non-proselytizing vegans, is what I'm saying.

After my self-righteous ranting on a previous thread, I'm trying to make an effort to be better about this. I get why vegans are so holier than though, but you're right, it's a turn off. Like Jesus would almost be ok if the fundamentalists didn't hate so much.
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:06 PM on October 2, 2009

My feeling has always been that, if I weren't meant to eat animals, they wouldn't taste so damned good to me. I can understand vegetarians, and certainly don't mind eating vegetarian dishes now and then.

I could never, ever be a vegan, though. Give up eggs and dairy in addition to meat? Not unless I became allergic. Besides, it's quite possible these days to get eggs and milk from farms where you can be sure the animals were well-treated, so the ethical part of veganism would seem not to apply.
posted by cerebus19 at 2:06 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

"Good to know the gritty rice dream is gone. I was vegan in the 90s and the sweets options then were pretty shitty."

It's funny—the thing that I'd say that vegans do best is desserts, though they can get a little too sweet for my tastes. But I prefer Soy Dream or Tofutti to most ice creams, and I've been really digging making sorbets out of whatever I can from the farmer's market lately.
posted by klangklangston at 2:08 PM on October 2, 2009

Veganism is really unhealthy. You want me to cite the food pyramid?

Here are some vegans for you:

Scott Jurek (record holder and consecutive seven-time champion of the Western States 100 Mile Endurance Run, two-time champion of the Badwater Ultramarathon, defending two-time Spartathlon champion, and winner of Hardrock 100 Mile Endurance Run)

Carl Lewis (winner of 9 Olympic gold medals and 10 other medals from Pan Am Games and other events; named Sportsman of the Century by the IOC)

Mac Danzig (UFC 6 Champion; MMA National Champion)

There are more, but on preview, I think it's wise to get back to the topic at hand.

For any vegans who wants something to do for the month, maybe try going raw. Some great recipes on the G Living site or cookbook author Ani Phyo's site.

If being vegan means a life without gravy

I've probably got at least a dozen recipes for vegan gravy. MeMail me if you want one.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 2:08 PM on October 2, 2009

"My feeling has always been that, if I weren't meant to eat animals, they wouldn't taste so damned good to me."

If we weren't meant to smoke crack, it wouldn't feel so good.
posted by klangklangston at 2:09 PM on October 2, 2009 [11 favorites]

Also, guys, not to threadsit or anything, but the whole "Veganism is unhealthy!" is bullshit and we all know it, so could we knock off that derail?

You've been at Metafilter for years, so I'm almost 100% certain you knew veganism is a button-pushing topic here, before posting, and it's hardly a derail when veganism is often promoted as among the healthiest, if not the healthiest, of alternative diets. It's fair to say that the link in this post promotes this notion, to some degree ("the awesome power of veganism").
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:09 PM on October 2, 2009

"I've probably got at least a dozen recipes for vegan gravy. MeMail me if you want one."

I grew up vegetarian, so I've never really understood how to use gravy. I mean, I can make mashed potatoes good enough and moist enough that they don't need a sauce. What is gravy great on that I'm not understanding?
posted by klangklangston at 2:10 PM on October 2, 2009

A roughly month-long period of eating unbelievably drab food to attain some bogus sense of virtue? Sorry, internet - I think someone already invented Lent.

In the only future I can see people will be vegan because the animals will be gone.

I don't believe you've met my friend Shoichi Uchiyama, have you?
posted by eatyourcellphone at 2:12 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

It's funny—the thing that I'd say that vegans do best is desserts

Totally. I'm eating a monster cookie right now from Sweet Pea Bakery: here is a list of their vegan desserts.

No recipes though, which stinks because their baked goods are fucking incredible - and the fact that their vegan is really just a side bonus.
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:12 PM on October 2, 2009

"You've been at Metafilter for years, so I'm almost 100% certain you knew veganism is a button-pushing topic here, before posting, and it's hardly a derail when veganism is often promoted as among the healthiest, if not the healthiest, of alternative diets. It's fair to say that the link in this post promotes this notion, to some degree ("the awesome power of veganism")."

Oh, fuck that. There's nothing in my thread or the link about health, and that MeFi can be moronic about some shit doesn't mean it's my fault for the fucking derail. What, was I supposed to put some sort of mealy-mouthed apology on the more inside asking people not to get on their fucking high horse about this, when I'd rather be talking about the food? The "awesome power of veganism" is obviously tongue-in-cheek hyperbole, and trying to make it about health is some motherfucking Stretch Armstrong shit.

I posted like the MeFi community could be addressed as adults—that some can't when it comes to their particular dietary hobgoblins isn't my problem. Anything more to say on this? Take me to MeTa.
posted by klangklangston at 2:16 PM on October 2, 2009 [14 favorites]

that MeFi can be moronic about some shit doesn't mean it's my fault for the fucking derail

That all of MeFi doesn't share your views on something doesn't mean others' views are moronic or derailing, nor does it mean you get to steer the thread. In any case, there's no need to act surprised or indignant when people disagree with you on something you know is a button-pushing subject, is all.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:22 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

If you're not averse to making your own ice cream (it's easy with those little units that you chill in the freezer), Bryanna Clark Grogan has some killer recipes.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 2:22 PM on October 2, 2009

This thread reminds me I want to try some Dr. Cow vegan nut cheese.
posted by R343L at 2:24 PM on October 2, 2009

Good gravy lends a... not contrasting, but complementary flavor to food. An unctuousness. Perhaps a sodium brightness that briefly, briefly caresses the palate before it dissolves yielding to the flavor and textures of the dish it's adorning.
posted by boo_radley at 2:25 PM on October 2, 2009 [3 favorites]

Yeah, this is ridiculous.

Look, I'm a red-blooded carnivore as much as anyone, and I still appreciate the talent and resources that it takes to make a really good vegan meal. It's really easy to make something taste good when you load it up with animal fats. Not so much when you're working with olive oil and bean paste.

So why do y'all have to ruin a good foodie thread with a tired old health argument? Is "health" the only concern when cooking and/or eating any particular meal? Fuck that philosophy.
posted by muddgirl at 2:25 PM on October 2, 2009 [5 favorites]

What is gravy great on that I'm not understanding?

Everything.
posted by adamdschneider at 2:26 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

I am issuing a challenge for vegans to go carnivore in December. Turkey, crown roasts of lamb, christmas goose, and pork chops in applesauce. What are you guys, afraid?
posted by Sukiari at 2:29 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

And on-topic, we've been cooking a bunch out of Vegetarian Suppers recently, and despite the rather time-consuming recipes, are really enjoying them. I also like that the chef gives suggestions on how to veganize each recipe (except the really really cheesy dishes).
posted by muddgirl at 2:29 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

Veganism seems like an eating disorder to me. Why deprive yourself of real food for so much processed "food"? Why make it impossible to eat out or eat with family etc. who aren't vegan? It's almost rude and anti-social really... Hey, I understand the ideology, but mixing politics with diet? Bad idea IMO.

Sorry to be apart of the derail, but this is a really absurd comment. An eating disorder? Depraved of real food? Since when are delicious fruits and vegetables and whole grains not real food? And veganism does not equal eating processed food any more than being a meat eater means only eating McD's.

Rude and anti-social? Don't mix your real life choices with your political opinions? Are you serious? That's insane.

I get why Klang doesn't want to fall into the same old derail (and dammit aren't we now trying to deny the existence of the unicorn by talking about the unicorn), and I get what Blaze is saying. But in Klang's defense, I don't normally expect the kind of ignorance exhibited in weezy's comment to show up on metafilter, and I can understand posting something with the optimistic hope that it won't always come to this. But alas.
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:32 PM on October 2, 2009 [5 favorites]

Thanks for the link; the recipes look delicious, especially the vegan "cheese" spread that the blogger serves as a grilled sandwich with tomato soup. Looking forward to cold-weather suppers!

I grew up vegetarian, so I've never really understood how to use gravy. I mean, I can make mashed potatoes good enough and moist enough that they don't need a sauce. What is gravy great on that I'm not understanding?

Well, first there's the simple mmm, sauce effect, and you can achieve that with a vegan soubise or a mushroom sauce or any one of a number of other vegetarian/vegan sauces. I love mashed potatoes, but mashed potatoes and a contrasting sauce sparking together? That's alchemy on a plate.

Gravy or some gravy-like sauce --- thick, deep in flavor, and packed with umami --- would be the key in making a really winning vegan pot pie, a recipe I'm dreaming up right now as we edge into cold weather where I am.

Second, and perhaps more important, is the cultural connotations of gravy: it traditionally goes with roasted meats, which means it signals to those who grew up with it that this is A Special Meal, whether it's Thanksgiving dinner with family, a Sunday roast, or just a day that the household chef (usually Mom in my childhood social circles) felt like making a bit of a fuss and treating everyone especially well. As much as I hate the misapplication of the phrase "comfort food," gravy is classic comfort food, with its childhood associations and its rich flavors.

I rarely cook meat, but I do looooooove gravy the once or twice a year when I have it. I think it's time to try out some vegan gravy-substitute recipes at home.
posted by Elsa at 2:33 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

If I'm a vegan and I eat french fries only, never get off the couch, and live in Detroit, I will probably die an early death.

I am not implying all vegan diets are unhealthy. However, I think the study shows that embarking on a vegan diet can be very unhealthy if individuals do not keep careful track of their nutrition. Some vegans know that there is risk to their health if they are not careful. I think this study reinforces the fact that it can be very bad for you, as bad as eating a ton of meat, if you are not careful.

I predict that doctors across America would be overjoyed if more of us omnivores decided to drop dairy and meat products from our lives.

I find statements like the above somewhat troubling because there is an implied belief that simply not eating any of that stuff means that you will be healthier. Once again this study shows that total elimination is no health guarantee. I realize that this is not earth shattering information. I want to balance out the "vegan is always awesome" vibe that is going on without resorting the the typical "all the vegans I know are sick" statements that usually happen in these threads.

Once again the study
posted by Procloeon at 2:34 PM on October 2, 2009 [3 favorites]

Thanks for the link; the recipes look delicious, especially the vegan "cheese" spread

Snap. Thanks for linking to that. Going to try that TONIGHT.
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:40 PM on October 2, 2009

Gravy is awesome. This is my favorite vegan gravy recipe -vegan smoked almond gravy (brought to you by the awesome ladies of the PPK).
posted by Lutoslawski at 2:42 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

It's funny—the thing that I'd say that vegans do best is desserts

That's because they still get to use sugar. Try eliminating that from your diet for health reasons :)

I always feel bad for the gluten-free desserts though. Most of the ones I've had haven't tasted very good at all so even if there were some stellar ones (baked goods specifically) out there I doubt most people would believe it.
posted by scrutiny at 2:43 PM on October 2, 2009

What is gravy great on that I'm not understanding?

Everything.

Gravy is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together.
posted by chambers at 2:44 PM on October 2, 2009

I prefer vegan recipes that don't pretend to be meat or cheese. Soups and salads in particular. Yum!
posted by scrutiny at 2:45 PM on October 2, 2009 [3 favorites]

I went vegan for six months after being a fairly strict vegetarian for six years. My God, that's no way to live.

I eat meat now.
posted by Pecinpah at 2:49 PM on October 2, 2009

that embarking on a vegan diet can be very unhealthy if individuals do not keep careful track of their nutrition.

... as opposed to the Western diet of takeout and soft drinks which is healthy and requires no thought.

For crying out loud, we have a ton of fatty bacon gluttony posts without a bunch of po-faced killjoys talking about the health risks -- why is it compulsory to rag on the vegans?

(Not a vegan or even a vegetarian).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:49 PM on October 2, 2009 [14 favorites]

Anyone unprepared to get to know an animal, then kill it and eat it should be a vegetarian, possibly vegan.

Remind me to introduce myself to the worms at my gravesite before I croak. I'd hate to make the little buggers feel guilty.

That's an unrealistic ideal. I'm all for the collapse of the horror that is modern factory farming, but, c'mon. That statement drips with the kind of sanctimony that makes many people (like me) who would like to cut down on red meat and increase consumption of local, seasonal produce roll their eyes and fix themselves a bacon cheeseburger.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 2:51 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

"That's because they still get to use sugar. Try eliminating that from your diet for health reasons :)"

My father is vegetarian and diabetic, so he's cut way down on the sugar. Something that seems to work for him is agave nectar.
posted by klangklangston at 2:52 PM on October 2, 2009

I could give up meat and dairy for a month with no problems, but giving up beer and bread is off the table. I love a challenge and I love food, so I might make a go of this, with those two modifications.

I've tried the vegan dairy substitutes before, and they're alright, but my main food philosophy is keeping my food as unprocessed as possible, and frankly the ingredients list on the dairy alternatives scare me a bit. If I'm going to do this I'll be sticking to what I can make in my kitchen from basic ingredients.
posted by lekvar at 2:54 PM on October 2, 2009

I would totally take part in a vegetarian but not vegan. No cheese and no cheese make DU something something.

Also, I can't do it this month. I have a guest visiting who won't eat salt, fat or tomatoes. If I also cut out dairy, eggs and meat....wtf is going to keep us alive for 10 days? Rice cakes?
posted by DU at 2:55 PM on October 2, 2009

vegan smoked almond gravy

Oh

Hell

Yes.

Just the idea is enough; I don't even really need to see the recipe to know I can whip up something really good. Smoked almonds were the key when I was tinkering with homemade veggie burgers, too. From now on, I think I'll keep a note reading "smoked almonds!" stuck on the fridge, so I remember to throw them into unexpected dishes.
posted by Elsa at 2:56 PM on October 2, 2009

"I could give up meat and dairy for a month with no problems, but giving up beer and bread is off the table. I love a challenge and I love food, so I might make a go of this, with those two modifications."

One of the great things about challenges like this is that they require absolutely nothing of the audience. You can make the food or not, you can go vegan or not, you can pick and choose as you please.
posted by klangklangston at 2:57 PM on October 2, 2009

I grew up vegetarian, so I've never really understood how to use gravy. I mean, I can make mashed potatoes good enough and moist enough that they don't need a sauce. What is gravy great on that I'm not understanding?

I grew up meat eating and I've never understood gravy either. We're going to cook the hell out of the meat so we can use the juice to make a sauce that moistens the overcooked meat? Why not just leave it in there to begin with?
posted by DU at 2:58 PM on October 2, 2009

Lekvar, most bread is vegan. Not sure why you think that's an issue. And I know that there is vegan beer available.

(Procleoeon, I am not sure the study says what you claim it says. The number of vegans in the study was *vanishingly* small -- 753 vegans out of 76,172 people! So the study specifically included some people who *might* have been vegans in the category, increasing the numbers to a still-paltry 1146 people and forcing them to caution: "... these death rate ratios should be interpreted with caution because of the uncertainty of the dietary classification ...")
posted by kyrademon at 3:00 PM on October 2, 2009

When I eat my juicy steak tonight, my heart will be with you and I'll pretend I'm eating a piece of cardboard. Hmmmmm... dead baby co...cardboard box!
posted by qvantamon at 3:00 PM on October 2, 2009

What do vegan trolls eat? Whatever it is, we've got it.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:03 PM on October 2, 2009

Why not just leave it in there to begin with?

Gravy is more than juice. Good gravy is often made with other flavorings, such as flour, butter and incredibly delicious, caramelized bits of meat and vegetables that stuck to the pan but are now captured in the gravy. It adds another layer to the dish.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:03 PM on October 2, 2009

(Or were you assuming that yeast is considered nonvegan, lekvar? Because I never did, although I can't claim to speak for all vegans.)
posted by kyrademon at 3:05 PM on October 2, 2009

What is gravy great on that I'm not understanding?

Holy shit, BISCUITS.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:05 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

Lekvar, most bread is vegan.

Really? A lot of the vegans I know say that yeast is not vegan. I don't know if this is a sub-sect* or what, but the breads I make at home or buy at the store all involve yeast.
posted by lekvar at 3:07 PM on October 2, 2009

*ignore the asterisk. It was a part of a train of thought I decided not to post.
posted by lekvar at 3:08 PM on October 2, 2009

When I eat my juicy steak tonight, my heart will be with you and I'll pretend I'm eating a piece of cardboard. Hmmmmm

In case anyone was wondering, its this kind of pointless shitting that makes vegans go into self-righteous self defense mode. We are not jealous of your meat. We are not allergic to it for christ sake. We choose not to eat it. If we were meat fanatics like yourself, we probably wouldn't be vegans.

Of all the things to shit on people for - why shit on them for what they eat? Come on man - what that kind of needless hating on people is doing to your blood pressure will probably kill you faster than steak or vegan vegetable shortening ever could.
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:11 PM on October 2, 2009 [13 favorites]

Lekvar, this might be of interest to you.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 3:12 PM on October 2, 2009

That's because they still get to use sugar.

Many vegans avoid conventional sugar because it's filtered with bone char. There are of course other kinds of sugar and sweeteners available that don't involve animal products as part of the processing. I've cut concentrated sugars out of my diet for health reasons.

Too bad about having to comb through the derail to get to the recipes in this thread, but oh well. This is how vegan threads go here.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 3:13 PM on October 2, 2009

A lot of the vegans I know say that yeast is not vegan.

Huh. Someone cite? I've actually never heard that before.
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:13 PM on October 2, 2009

Thanks for posting this. I'm always interested in vegan recipes, though I'm not a vegan myself. It seems like the recent 'foodie' explosion has really done great things in the vegan area. I'd be interested in the blogs taking part in this.

And I don't get why the vegan-haters in this thread are so preachy. Let people cook what they want, sheesh.
posted by statolith at 3:13 PM on October 2, 2009

What is not vegan about regular beer?
posted by Pecinpah at 3:14 PM on October 2, 2009

I would like to know why all the thread-shitters equate vegan food with being tasteless. I know some fabulous vegan cooks that would knock your socks off with their meals and you wouldn't even be paying attention to the fact that it was void of meat and dairy because it would taste so fucking delicious.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 3:15 PM on October 2, 2009 [4 favorites]

Again, I can't speak for everyone, but according to Wikipedia, yeast is a kind of fungi, and according to the website titled "Is Yeast Vegan?" (first google hit for those words):

"... yeast is vegan. There are some vegans who do not eat yeast for their reasons, but ... yeast is not an animal (or animal product) ... Yeasts are actually part of the fungi kingdom, which classify them as a fungus."

Speaking as a self-identified vegan, I eat bread all the time, and alcohol periodically, and I have used both nutritional yeast and brewer's yeast in recipes. Most other vegans I know do the same.

And frankly, it's not like there's a manual out there proclaiming the One Right Way to do veganism. As with most things, there's some obvious stuff that is clearly nonvegan, and some stuff on the border that reasonable people can disagree on. Yeast seems pretty squarely OK for most flavors of veganism I can think of, though.
posted by kyrademon at 3:18 PM on October 2, 2009

Pardon me for saying so, but why come in to a thread about vegan recipes just to say how you could never be vegan and how weird/terrible/unhealthy/stupid it seems to you? I might call that less "constructive contribution" and more "parade-raining". Nobody likes a vegan proselytizer, but nobody likes a meatatarian proselytizer, either. Can't we all just get along?

I'm not vegan, and pushing these recipes as something that promote "the awesome power of veganism" is counterproductively heavy-handed, but this looks interesting. I'm always looking for different recipes to mix into my rotation and play around with, and I'm curious to see what pops up on some of these blogs.
posted by teamparka at 3:18 PM on October 2, 2009

What is not vegan about regular beer?

Some beers have gelatin or honey or other weird animal products. Most cigarettes aren't vegan either (parliments, american spirits and nat shermans are the only vegan cigs I know of).

Here's a beer list that tell you if the beer is vegan or not.
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:19 PM on October 2, 2009

Pecinpah, some beers aren't vegan, but a lot of them are. Some can be filtered using isinglass, some contain honey, etc.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 3:19 PM on October 2, 2009

though I admit that, as a pretty staunch vegan, I love beer so much that I occasionally let the non-veganism of some beers go by the wayside. Cheese was hard to give up. Beer? Downright impossible.
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:21 PM on October 2, 2009

Tofutti's products are mostly vegan (some products contain egg whites), and I can vouch for Mintz's Blintzes and Tofutti Cuties.

Is Yeast Vegan? Yes, but there are some vegans who do not eat yeast for their reasons. Yeast is a one-celled organism, classified in the kingdom Fungi.

Most cigarettes aren't vegan either (parliments, american spirits and nat shermans are the only vegan cigs I know of).

I know being vegan isn't (only) about personal health, but the notion of a smoker choosing a certain brand because it's vegan amuses me greatly.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:21 PM on October 2, 2009

Jesus christ. I swear, it seems like a bunch of people on Metafilter would, if they saw someone walking down the street eating a Tofutti Cutie, run over, knock it out of their hand, and then start screaming at them about HOW DARE THEY FLAUNT THEIR VEGAN LIFESTYLE GRRRRRARRRRRRR.

I mean, shit. I just ate a hamburger, but you know what? Some of those recipes look good, and -- SHOCK, HORROR -- I like to eat some vegan food too sometimes.
posted by Frobenius Twist at 3:32 PM on October 2, 2009 [9 favorites]

I eat meat, but I don't cook meat at home a lot. Mainly because I'm cheap and meat is expensive, and half the time I cook meat, I mess it up. So I eat meat when I go out and eat other stuff at home. Will be on the lookout for good vegan meal recipes in this thread. I love a good stew or chili at this time of year.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:33 PM on October 2, 2009

I'm an omnivore, married to a pescatarian, who eats vegetarian about half the time, maybe more. Americans eat way too much meat. Do you know what a serving of meat is supposed to be? The size of a deck of cards. When was the last time you ordered a steak and it was the size of a deck of cards?

I'm a huge fan of The Veganomicon (and not just for the obvious reasons) especially the whole grain salads and the simple, basic ways to cook just about every vegetable.

I don't know if I could go vegan, even for a month, but to say there is no such thing as delicious vegan food is ridiculous.
posted by JoanArkham at 3:33 PM on October 2, 2009

When we have hurfdurfbacon threads, all the vegetarians and vegans don't litter the thread with their complaints about bacon eating and how they could never eat bacon. So why is it that people have to come in here with their complaints about veganism? And this goes to show you how it is out in the real world, vegans are constantly on the defense because they are constantly hounded about their choice, it's not the other way around. Yeah, some people say that they know some "preachy vegans," but tell me, what were the events leading up to the preachy part? Someone was probably giving them shit. Yeah I get a little miffed when I'm minding my own business and the fact I'm vegan offends somebody. And yeah, if they confront me in the wrong way I am going to get pissed. My blood doesn't boil when I see someone across the table from me chowing down on a juicy steak, but damn I tell you, the fact that I don't eat steak causes some people hypertension. And for the 0.1% of the vegan population that does get up in people's faces without prior confrontation, the rest of us vegans don't like them either.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 3:35 PM on October 2, 2009 [11 favorites]

And I know that there is vegan beer available.

WTF? Reinheitsgebot - Beer is water, malt, hops, yeast, period. If it has anything else, it's not beer. Yeah, I know who else liked German Purity Laws.
posted by qvantamon at 3:35 PM on October 2, 2009

I would like to know why all the thread-shitters equate vegan food with being tasteless.

I'm no thread-shitter, but vegan food is indeed for the most part lacking in taste, relative to non-vegan offerings, because it takes out a chunk of possible ingredients and textures. As a result, most vegan preparations have to amp up flavors with salts, sauces and sugars to try to replace what is missing. With these additions, vegan food can indeed be tasty (visit Horizons in Philadelphia), but these quickly negate most of the health benefits as a result. Without these additions, most vegan food earns its common reputation as bland and tasteless.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:36 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

Yeast is vegan.
posted by People Who Are More Knowledgeable Than Lekvar on October 2 [+] [!]

Ah, OK then. That's changed since last time I talked to anyone about being a vegan. (admittedly, it was a while ago and they were odd folk in ways that had nothing to do with being vegan)
posted by lekvar at 3:40 PM on October 2, 2009

Besides, it's quite possible these days to get eggs and milk from farms where you can be sure the animals were well-treated, so the ethical part of veganism would seem not to apply.

The ethical argument regarding the use of animal products such as eggs or milk isn't solely about treatment, it is that we as humans have no right to take these things that are not produced for us from those for whom they were produced. Even milk from a wonderful organic, local farm comes from cows who are impregnated to produce that milk. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Male chicks born to egg laying hens are often ground up alive, even when they are born to "good" farms.

Now I am not vegan, though I was briefly once. I'm merely stating the ethical arguments.

That said, more recipes and food, please. I can always use more tasty vegan food ideas. Been thinking of getting myself a copy of Veganomicon.
posted by cmgonzalez at 3:44 PM on October 2, 2009

Many vegans avoid conventional sugar because it's filtered with bone char.

Whoa. That is awesome, I never knew that. Half of me says, "Good job, don't let those cow pieces go to waste!" while the other half says, "Gross, there are bones in my sugar."
posted by scrutiny at 3:45 PM on October 2, 2009

I'm no thread-shitter, but vegan food is indeed for the most part lacking in taste, relative to non-vegan offerings, because it takes out a chunk of possible ingredients and textures.

I'm just going to have to flat out completely disagree with you Blazecock. Then again, I think steamed Kale sans anything else is totally delicious, so YMMV.
posted by Lutoslawski at 3:49 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

Lots of good stuff here. I will try the Potato Soup this weekend--perfect for the cold, wet weather we are having. Thanks klangklangston.
posted by belvidere at 3:49 PM on October 2, 2009

but vegan food is indeed for the most part lacking in taste, relative to non-vegan offerings

With all due respect, recognize that you're implying the following: Strawberries are lacking in taste. Blueberries and watermelon and bananas and apples are lacking in taste. Squash and potatoes (and sweet potatoes!) are lacking in taste. Salads are lacking in taste. Salt and sugar and cinnamon are lacking in taste.

I can't really see how someone can make those claims with a straight face. I mean, all of the raw ingredients I just listed taste good, and just think of what a halfway decent cook could do if they started mixing these ingredients?
posted by Frobenius Twist at 3:50 PM on October 2, 2009 [11 favorites]

TPS, I've been waiting for a chill in the air to make this chili recipe. Fall is definitely here, so I'll be making this soon.
posted by cmgonzalez at 3:54 PM on October 2, 2009

I think steamed Kale sans anything else is totally delicious

Not a big fan of steamed spinach and kale, but I think sauteed kale with garlic is great. As with lots of things, I'm sure it comes down to expectations. I'm used to eating a wide variety of things, and I enjoy eating, so that colors my expectations for the food I put into my body. Others are satisfied eating raw vegetables, for example, even though cooking releases flavors that I would miss, were someone to recommend a raw diet to me. So, of course, I wouldn't recommend that limitation to anyone else who enjoys life enough to search out good food.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:56 PM on October 2, 2009

Anyone got tips/tricks for a good vegan pie dough? We love us some pie, but my girlfriend's sister is vegan so vegan crusts have been attempted, but not to wild success. Nonvegan pie dough is a snap (mixture of butter, shortening, flour, vodka, salt, sugar). The vegan crust comes out sort of thin but tough. Thoughts? Advice? Because no one should have to go without pie.
posted by rtha at 3:57 PM on October 2, 2009

"I love a good stew or chili at this time of year."

This takes a bit of time, but is good as hell—Steichmann family recipe.

All beans cooked, drained, rinsed, 2 cups pinto, 2 cups kidney, 2 cups black or red
1 large onion, diced
1 cup celery diced or chopped
1 green pepper, stemmed, seeded, chopped
1 jalapeno, stemmed, seeded, chopped
4 roma tomatoes chopped or 1 large can (25oz.) diced tomatoes
1 tsp chili powder
1-2 tbsp tomato paste
1/8-1/4 tsp red peper flakes
1 tbsp cumin, ground
1 tsp coriander, ground
(optional) 1 16oz pkg tempeh, diced
1-2 tbsp oil (or butter, if not vegan) for sauteing
1 tsp salt and 1/4 tsp pepper

In large stock pot, saute onions. If adding tempeh, saute with onions. Then add chopped veggies; simmer for 5-10 min. (peppers and celery will be soft). Add spices and salt and pepper. Add beans, tomatoes, tomato paste, and just enough water to cook. Cook/simmer at low heat until cooked through. Adjust for more heat by adding a little habenero or cayenne.

It's fantastic for football parties, and I like mine with a lot of green onions on top and hearty bread. I might try that vegan nacho cheese on it; it's also great with sour cream, hard-boiled eggs, shredded cheese, or about any other accoutrement you'd want. You can also add red peppers for more sweetness, charred poblanos for a smokier flavor, or, well, just about anything.
posted by klangklangston at 3:57 PM on October 2, 2009 [5 favorites]

With all due respect, recognize that you're implying the following

The only thing I am implying is that artificially limiting oneself to a diet of specific foods is not really what constitutes a normal, proper diet, within the context of what human beings have been eating for millennia. I can recognize that strawberries are amazing when in season, while at the same time recognizing that hydroponic strawberries in the winter taste like flavorless mush. I can also recognize that I would never center my nutritional intake around strawberries. There's no contradiction here.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:01 PM on October 2, 2009

I'm an omnivore, married to a pescatarian, who eats vegetarian about half the time, maybe more.

Are you me? You might be me.
posted by rtha at 4:02 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

Vegan food gets a reputation as tasteless when it tries to imitate animal-based products. When it's vegan food on its own right (that is, a recipe that is created with the vegan ingredients as a premise) it can be delicious (as I'd bet those recipes are).

The thing is, nobody thinks of the delicious "vegan-by-design" food as "vegan food" (like the "vegan beer" thing), it's just beer, it's just not made with animal products because that's not how it's made. Like the "asbestos free" joke on xkcd, no one will complain about "vegan corn flakes" or "vegan oatmeal" because they don't consider them as "vegan food", just as food (at most you'll talk about "true corn flakes" if there are others that are made with bizarre animal-based ingredients).

"Vegan food" is hardwired in most of the (non-vegan) brains as "food that is imitation of animal-product based recipes", because that's the only time they will be explicitly told that's vegan food (like "taste this hamburger, it's vegan"). And then it's a losing proposition - you can't outsteak a steak... That person probably has eaten a few delicious "vegan" recipes in their life (beer, for starters), but the only time they were explicitly eating a "vegan" food was for the "hamburger", and it mmm... wasn't hamburgery enough. "Every time I ate vegan food it was lacking compared to the real deal" => "Vegan food is tasteless. Bring moar beer and french fries."

Hence, my tongue-in-cheek joke about the cardboard steak. I do like vegetarian food (haven't had much contact with explicitly vegan food), and I was actually vegetarian for some time in college. But imitation steaks are... just not steaky enough :P
posted by qvantamon at 4:03 PM on October 2, 2009 [4 favorites]

For pies, I've had good luck with Russian pie crusts -- they're yeasted, and have an interesting bready texture. But I mostly do that because American/French pie crusts always fall to pieces on me, whereas the Russian ones can take a beating, not because of vegan issues.

The problem point for American/French pie crusts would seem to be the butter. Most recipes I have seen simply substitute margarine of some kind -- does that not work?
posted by kyrademon at 4:10 PM on October 2, 2009

A mix of shortening and margarine should do the trick. It's been a while since I made a vegan pie crust (or any pie crust, really), but Earth Balance makes a non-hydrogenated shortening, as does Crisco. Both are vegan. Use that plus a good margarine/spread like Earth Balance (which is good, good stuff even if you're not even remotely vegan) and you should get good crumbs and flakiness.

I haven't tried them myself, but the Vegan Yum Yum blog has a pie crust recipe and a recipe for hand pies that looks amazing.
posted by cmgonzalez at 4:16 PM on October 2, 2009

And then it's a losing proposition - you can't outsteak a steak

Exactly. If you say "this is vegan bolognese sauce", I'm going to compare it to meaty sauce, and find it wanting. If you say "this is an Italian lentil sauce" I'll probably find it delicious.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:23 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

If anyone is interested in a really nice salad to go with vegan chili (I'll have to try the recipe linked above), I'd like to recommend one I had recently with a Mexican meal. It was chopped avocado, red onion, tomato and capsicum, dressed with olive oil, lemon juice and black pepper. It was absolutely delicious, and contrasted very nicely with the spiciness of the other dishes.
posted by fearthehat at 4:25 PM on October 2, 2009

The thing is, nobody thinks of the delicious "vegan-by-design" food as "vegan food" (like the "vegan beer" thing), it's just beer, it's just not made with animal products because that's not how it's made.

That's a great point, qvantamon.
posted by Lutoslawski at 4:27 PM on October 2, 2009

Yeah, nobody likes "vegan food," but everybody* loves falafel, hummus and pita bread.

*show me a person who doesn't like these things. I'll show you a person who's soul died long, long ago.
posted by lekvar at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2009

Am I the only person who thinks that falafel sandwiches in NYC are overrated?
posted by josher71 at 4:49 PM on October 2, 2009

Ooh, found it. Moroccan slow cooker stew.
posted by JoanArkham at 5:02 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

Am I the only person who thinks that falafel sandwiches in NYC are overrated?

Yes.
posted by Lutoslawski at 5:08 PM on October 2, 2009

The only thing I am implying is that artificially limiting oneself to a diet of specific foods is not really what constitutes a normal, proper diet, within the context of what human beings have been eating for millennia.

Artificially limiting oneself to employing workers instead of raiding their towns, killing the children, raping the women and enslaving the men is not really what constitutes a normal, proper society, within the context of what human beings have been doing for millennia.

Most vegans are in it for animal welfare reasons (it's the "pescatarians" and "flexitarians" and "pollo-vegetarians" who are in it for health, but hey, anything that reduces animal deaths is fine by me). For most people in the First World, it's simply not necessary to kill or harm animals to survive. Why is that so hard to accept? I'm vegan, but if I were stranded on a desert island with no edible plants, I would eat fish and game (assuming I could catch them). Sitting here at home in Virginia, it's simply not necessary for an animal to suffer or die in order for me to live.

On topic, I second the recommendations for The Post-Punk Kitchen and Vegan YumYum. The Mac and Cheeze recipe from the latter is truly delicious.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:16 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

> Most vegans are in it for animal welfare reasons (it's the "pescatarians" and "flexitarians" and "pollo-vegetarians" who are in it for health, but hey, anything that reduces animal deaths is fine by me).

Ecological reasons, too. The ismism of it all is a bit unnecessary.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 5:25 PM on October 2, 2009

I am not vegan, but I love them. I admire them greatly, but cheese is something I could not sacrifice. And whenever I choose to eat a vegetarian option, I'm surprised how tasty it is compared to its meat counterpart (burritos, lasagna, black bean veggie burgers). I didn't realized this until this past year. You need a vegan/vegetarian who knows how to cook with tasty ingredients so that you don't in fact end up with cardboard.
posted by yeti at 5:29 PM on October 2, 2009

klangklangston,

You've been around long enough to know that any post on the blue mentioning vegetarianism or veganism ends in a trainwreck. Please stop feeding the trolls. Thanks.

Thanks for the links though. I did enjoy the post.

Trolls,

Fuck off. This is a post about recipes. Keep your goddamn opinions to yourself (for once) and stop intervening in something that may not concern you. I'm so sick and tired of hearing your pitying comments. Like religion, diet is a personal choice and unless you find something threatening about this choice, keep your trap shut. If a vegetarian/vegan is in your grill then fine, take them to task. However, this is not one of those situations. Shut the fuck up.
posted by purephase at 5:31 PM on October 2, 2009

Fuck off. This is a post about recipes. Keep your goddamn opinions to yourself (for once) and stop intervening in something that may not concern you. I'm so sick and tired of hearing your pitying comments.

Ummm it sounded to me like everyone was getting along pretty well. Decent points were made all around and it seems people have come to a mild consensus that vegan food is great when it's "vegan-by-design" as qvantamon said. Everyone was quite civil until you jumped in with that totally unnecessary f-bomb. I get that numerous threads shitting on vegans/vegetarians has made this a sore spot for you (and understandably so!), but we were being civil here, honest.

And just to be clear, I think everyone is appreciative of the vegan-by-design recipes. Even people who eat meat and cheese eat vegetables. Usually.
posted by scrutiny at 5:41 PM on October 2, 2009

Artificially limiting oneself to employing workers instead of raiding their towns, killing the children, raping the women and enslaving the men is not really what constitutes a normal, proper society, within the context of what human beings have been doing for millennia.

Making the choices made by vegetarians and omnivores equivalent with those of pillagers, rapists, slave-masters and child killers is not a good way to argue for maintaining a diet that is as artificial as any other processed, artificial diet found in any industrialized society.

That said, despite my supposed taste for slavery, murder and pillaging, I have enjoyed vegan food before and imagine I will again, in its own context. I just recognize its limitations as artificial as any other crippling of the senses, like walking into a museum wearing sunglasses, or rubbing a fur coat while wearing three pairs of mittens. It might be interesting to limit one's senses in this way every now and again, but I wouldn't make a habit out of it.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:51 PM on October 2, 2009

Making the choices made by vegetarians and omnivores equivalent with those of pillagers, rapists, slave-masters and child killers is not a good way to argue for maintaining a diet that is as artificial as any other processed, artificial diet found in any industrialized society.

How in the hell is a diet based on vegetables and grains "artificial?" Vegan diet != a bunch of fake meat. But thanks for playing.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:58 PM on October 2, 2009

And now I retract my statement. Clearly I was being overly optimistic.
posted by scrutiny at 6:07 PM on October 2, 2009

How in the hell is a diet based on vegetables and grains "artificial?"

The notion of veganist diet (i.e. exclusively non-vegetarian, non-carnivorous) is a very recent development in the history of the human species, and almost entirely culturally based.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:13 PM on October 2, 2009

I'm very curious to try the "Mac and Yeast" recipe from VeganYumYum. May have to visit a few stores in the search for "nutritional yeast".
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:21 PM on October 2, 2009

That said, despite my supposed taste for slavery, murder and pillaging...

You've wilfully missed the point, Blazecock Pileon. You weren't being accused of supporting slavery.

You were making the hoary old argument from nature -- that we should stick to the "normal, proper" diet that humans have been "eating for millennia." Because that's what our ancestors have always done. In fact, the human race has been doing a whole lot of shitty things for a whole buncha time -- like slavery and murder. Just because it's ancient, or natural, doesn't make it good.

Conversely, just because it's artificial doesn't make it bad, even if we accept a vegan diet is artificial. Democracy. Poetry. My John Coltrane CDs. All pretty artificial.
posted by dontjumplarry at 6:22 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

re: most vegan food tasty or plain? One thing that wasn't mentioned yet is that one's tastes adjust to one's diet. I can tell you one thing. I did a thing a few times (~10 or so) where you flush the digestive system with salty water and in an hour you're supposed to eat a serving of white rice with butter - no salt, no seasoning of any sort, just the two ingredients. The white rice tastes _insanely_ good. It has this sort of very subtle, nutty flavour like nothing you've ever tried. Same thing after fasting for a day.. all "whole" foods taste different, unusual and rich, while foods with salt, sugar and seasonings taste "off".

Our taste is a very malleable thing and it's very far from being set in stone as many think. Meat makes you accustomed to its own taste but, at least in my case (and I'm sure many others), after some months without meat there's no sense that diet is restricted taste-wise.
posted by rainy at 6:23 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

(as a sidenote: I'm not a vegan myself, I don't care for cheese, never eat eggs, but milk is a very useful food for protein, vitamin d, fats, other vitamins, b12.. one thing I don't like about veganism is having to rely on supplements.)
posted by rainy at 6:30 PM on October 2, 2009

You weren't being accused of supporting slavery.

I think the moral implication in the statement I responded to was pretty self-evident, and to the extent that its slavery/child-killing associations are silly, I don't think his comment bears taking too seriously and I'm sorry if my response to it read too dryly.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:39 PM on October 2, 2009

Fuck off. This is a post about recipes. Keep your goddamn opinions to yourself (for once) and stop intervening in something that may not concern you. I'm so sick and tired of hearing your pitying comments. Like religion, diet is a personal choice and unless you find something threatening about this choice, keep your trap shut.

Good thing people's religious choices are never up for discussion on Metafilter, then. Think it's tough being vegan? Try being St Alia of the Bunnies.

Your comparison of veganism to religion is one I can agree with, though. I wasn't joking when I described this MoFo as a secular Lent. And vegans are somewhat reminiscent of the most orthodox Jews in their obsessive fixation on eliminating every possible source of dietary contamination, which leads to serious consideration of the most abstruse byways of culinary lore - 'Is there bone char in the sugar bowl?' 'What is the precise nature of the yeast organism?'

I also see veganism as comparable to anorexia mirabilis in that it is a joyless body-negating asceticism founded on the notion that the pleasure derived from being ideologically correct - sitting at the 'banquet of God' - is more delicious than any mere earthly satisfaction. Vegans are less able to convince themselves of the truth of this proposition than the Holy Fasting Girls were, which is why they always flare up whenever someone suggests that a steak is better than any vegan dish. The Puritan is always tormented by the possibility that the 'spiritual' satisfaction he derives from his austerities is illusory, and furiously and ashamedly represses the little voice that whispers about succumbing to the pleasures of the flesh. He also, of course, tries to suppress the carousers and gluttons and wine-bibbers who remind him constantly that pleasure is ripe for the plucking at any time of the day or night. And he certainly doesn't want your pity, thank you very much! He knows he must be happier than you, who cannot hear the Music of the Spheres.

I reject veganism because I reject everything that is glum and Puritanical and anti-pleasure. I don't doubt vegans' good intentions and sincerity, or their honest disgust with traditional diets, but then proto-veganess Beatrice of Nazareth was probably being honest too when she claimed that the smell of meat made her vomit. She was still a crank.

I don't feel the need to make nice with fluoride nuts or crystal healers, and I don't see any need to pretend that I think veganism is anything more than a crankish, faddish hobby-horse on a par with creationism and UFO-logy.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 6:42 PM on October 2, 2009 [4 favorites]

Re vegan piecrust - I haven't tried this olive oil crust yet, but it sounds like it could be made less savory and might fit the bill.
posted by yarrow at 6:52 PM on October 2, 2009

I'm very curious to try the "Mac and Yeast" recipe from VeganYumYum. May have to visit a few stores in the search for "nutritional yeast".

Eh. Don't bother with that recipe. The Very Best Vegan Mac n' Cheese recipe can be found here, in Veg News:

Mac and Cheese

For some people nutritional yeast has a *kind* of cheesy taste, hence the reliance on it in a LOT of vegan mac&cheese recipes. (And some people think it tastes like ass.) The thing is, it's not that cheesy. It's good--especially on popcorn!--but it doesn't make a very convincing cheese sauce. The Veg News version is actually better than any dairy mac n' cheese, short of Velveeta or Martha Stewart's fancy three cheese version. I don't bother with the baking or the bread crumb bullshit. I just make the pasta/sauce, mix and eat. It makes a *wonderful* ditch dog...vegan of course!
posted by hecho de la basura at 6:54 PM on October 2, 2009

eatyourcellphone: nice theory, except that it doesn't pan out: strawberries and mango and oranges are certainly more pleasurable and luxurious than meat and yet I haven't seen vegans or vegetarians frown upon them (set a large bowl of organic strawberries before me and see how much I frown!). If you were right, it would be something like gruel > plain oatmeal > plain rice > brown rice > spinach > kale > meat > grapes > mango. With mango being the most "sinful" and gruel the most righteous, in vegan hierarchy.
posted by rainy at 6:55 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

It is told that Buddha, going out to look on life, was greatly daunted by death. "They all eat one another!" he cried, and called it evil. This process I examined, changed the verb, said, "They all feed one another," and called it good.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:56 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

"The notion of veganist diet (i.e. exclusively non-vegetarian, non-carnivorous) is a very recent development in the history of the human species, and almost entirely culturally based."

So are: Marriage, health care, literacy, eye glasses, vaccinations, computers, deodorant, ice cream, refined sugar, all French sauces and the music of ABBA.

Stop trying to use the naturalistic fallacy to buttress your personal ethical opinions.

"I reject veganism because I reject everything that is glum and Puritanical and anti-pleasure. I don't doubt vegans' good intentions and sincerity, or their honest disgust with traditional diets, but then proto-veganess Beatrice of Nazareth was probably being honest too when she claimed that the smell of meat made her vomit. She was still a crank.

I don't feel the need to make nice with fluoride nuts or crystal healers, and I don't see any need to pretend that I think veganism is anything more than a crankish, faddish hobby-horse on a par with creationism and UFO-logy."

This is fucking moronic. How is Tuscan White Bean soup glum, puritanical and anti-pleasure? Not only that, but the fundamental assumption is that it's not just about your pleasure, cocksweat. If you argue from the position that ethics all descend from your pleasure, and that any denial of that pleasure is immoral, then you'd better be the fucking Übermensch, because universalizing that theory leads to my running your dumb ass down with my SUV rape mobile. If you brook any distinction before absolutism, you must realize that other people can draw their line in a different place, especially if they consider the pleasure/suffering of animals to be important.

GRAR DON'T BE FUCKING STUPID.
posted by klangklangston at 6:59 PM on October 2, 2009 [8 favorites]

klangklangston: "I posted like the MeFi community could be addressed as adults—that some can't when it comes to their particular dietary hobgoblins isn't my problem. Anything more to say on this? Take me to MeTa."

I post V-MoFo
You say vegans blow
I say... CALL ME OUT

If you've more to cry
Improve your reply
I want you... to CALL ME OUT
posted by Rhaomi at 7:04 PM on October 2, 2009

eatyourcellphone says: I also see veganism as comparable to anorexia mirabilis in that it is a joyless body-negating asceticism founded on the notion that the pleasure derived from being ideologically correct - sitting at the 'banquet of God' - is more delicious than any mere earthly satisfaction.

Wow. What a load of crap.
posted by purephase at 7:14 PM on October 2, 2009 [6 favorites]

I thought I was vegan because I didn't like factory farming. Huh.
posted by josher71 at 7:19 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

nice theory, except that it doesn't pan out: strawberries and mango and oranges are certainly more pleasurable and luxurious than meat and yet I haven't seen vegans or vegetarians frown upon them (set a large bowl of organic strawberries before me and see how much I frown!). If you were right, it would be something like gruel > plain oatmeal > plain rice > brown rice > spinach > kale > meat > grapes > mango. With mango being the most "sinful" and gruel the most righteous, in vegan hierarchy.

'How can you call us puritans? We have a church fete, and dances for the young people, and a bi-monthly card night (no betting please) in the rectory!'.

All but the grimmest doctrines allow their adherents to have some fun. Your sect doesn't think mangoes are sinful. The Baptists can't see why those silly Catholics won't let the priest marry some nice little woman. There are different Puritanisms for different folks, that's all.

But your not effing and blinding like your co-vegan purephase, so perhaps you're that rare bird who is happier in its cage. If you feel you're at pleasure's apex digging into a bowl of strawberries, well I envy you in a way. I also envy the vicar who's happy with six minutes of pumping away on top of the good lady wife every second Wednesday. It's still a pretty buttoned-down life.

This is fucking moronic. How is Tuscan White Bean soup glum, puritanical and anti-pleasure? Not only that, but the fundamental assumption is that it's not just about your pleasure, cocksweat. If you argue from the position that ethics all descend from your pleasure, and that any denial of that pleasure is immoral, then you'd better be the fucking Übermensch, because universalizing that theory leads to my running your dumb ass down with my SUV rape mobile.

Perhaps a mess of white beans is rich enough for your blood. It seems like pretty cold comfort to me.

I never argued that it was all about pleasure. I was just arguing for Pleasure to take her rightful place at the table. Of course we'll all disagree about where that place is, and no one would advocate pleasure as the be all and end all. But few choose to draw the line as far down the scale of pleasure as you do.

Please do not threaten my life, even in jest. And don't run down cocksweat. I know it's probably not vegan-approved, but it can be just the right taste sensation when you're in the mood for it.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:22 PM on October 2, 2009

But your not effing and blinding like your co-vegan purephase

What does this mean? I'm serious that I don't understand some of the grad school style terminology you are using.
posted by josher71 at 7:26 PM on October 2, 2009

I thought I was vegan because I didn't like factory farming. Huh.

Would you eat eggs that were laid by hens you kept, in the best imaginable conditions, in your own backyard? Either it's not just about factory farming or you're not actually a vegan.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:26 PM on October 2, 2009

Is it just me, or does it seem like for all the quotes like this "It's the absolutism and the moral superiority folk that keep me from really enjoying a good vegan meal," most of the negative absolutism and preachy change-your-mind comments in this thread are coming from the non-vegans? I'm not saying there aren't preachy vegans, but the your-diet-is-wrong commentary I hear most comes from the omnivores camp.

/not vegan, but sympathetic
posted by Never teh Bride at 7:28 PM on October 2, 2009

What does this mean?

'Your' is a typo for 'you're'. Effing and blinding is a British expression meaning 'to swear, ususally vociferously and at length'. 'Co-vegan' is another person who enjoys being a vegan. 'purephase' is a vegan who posts on Metafilter.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:29 PM on October 2, 2009

Yes, I'd eat eggs laid by hens I kept.
posted by josher71 at 7:31 PM on October 2, 2009

I was just arguing for Pleasure to take her rightful place at the table.

You don't know what you're talking about, and you're not making much sense doing it.

/omnivore
posted by rtha at 7:33 PM on October 2, 2009 [3 favorites]

eatyourcellphone, you have missed the point so thoroughly that it's pretty much laughable. You have wandered into a thread where people are exchanging the tastiest recipes they can think of -- tips on ice cream, pie crusts, and similar -- and accused them of being self-starvation oriented ascetics.

I'm a vegan. I had no idea yeast was classified as a fungus until I looked it up for this thread because someone asked about it. You know why? I don't give a damn. You know what I would have done if I found out yeast was a kind of animal? Kept eating bread. Because I don't give a damn about yeast. It's YEAST. Yeast doesn't care, so neither do I.

Being concerned about bone char in the sugar bowl isn't a matter of worrying that the taint of meat will pollute my precious precious bodily fluids. It's about trying to avoid bone char filtered sugar because I have made the choice to attempt to minimize my participation in the killing of animals for purposes I consider unnecessary. Because I have decided that many animals should have certain rights because I think they have wants and desires and feelings and that therefore it's wrong for me to kill them if I don't have to.

Yes, that is a moral/ethical choice. So what? So is the choice not to kill and eat human babies. And no, that doesn't mean I think you approve of killing and eating human babies. It means that adhering to an ethical system is not a mental illness. And I don't think being vegan means I get to sit on the right hand of god and be purer and holier than anyone else. It means I don't want to do it because I have decided it's wrong. For myself. And you can make your own decision. For yourself.

And frankly, every vegan knows that tons of products contain dead animals. Cars, medicine, all kinds of stuff. And yet, most of us don't live as hermits off the grid. A lot of us even acknowledge that it may be (gasp!) *necessary* to kill animals sometimes. Because we're actually trying to, you know, do something specific -- a personal advocacy for better treatment of animals, and more thought as to whether or not it's OK to kill them just because we can, as well as a desire to spend our money and live our lives along those lines -- rather than being an insane fear of taint that haunts every second of our lives, as you seem to think it is.

So, in summation -- I went out and tried the coconut milk ice cream someone recommended upthread. It was pretty good!
posted by kyrademon at 7:34 PM on October 2, 2009 [13 favorites]

'How can you call us puritans? We have a church fete, and dances for the young people, and a bi-monthly card night (no betting please) in the rectory!'.

Perhaps a mess of white beans is rich enough for your blood. It seems like pretty cold comfort to me.

So your argument basically depends on being able to call the food preferences of others somehow less real and less pleasurable than your own? Really? Do I have that right?
posted by mellifluous at 7:36 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

P.S., on preview -- "Would you eat eggs that were laid by hens you kept, in the best imaginable conditions, in your own backyard?"

Yes, of course. For many of us, it actually is about treatment of animals.

If that makes me not a vegan in your eyes ... well, I can't say that I really give a damn.
posted by kyrademon at 7:37 PM on October 2, 2009

You have wandered into a thread where people are exchanging the tastiest recipes they can think of -- tips on ice cream, pie crusts, and similar -- and accused them of being self-starvation oriented ascetics.

You've missed the point. The comparison to anorexia mirabilis was to point out that both it and veganism are puritanical, obsessive and radically politicize/spiritualize the act of eating. I know that vegans aren't at death's door,subsisting on communion wafers and altar wine. You've misinterpreted deliberately. Veganism and anorexia mirabilis are similar in kind, but not degree, just as certain churches' rules on 'modest dress' are akin to the Islamic burqa, though much less extreme.

I realize that vegans try to make their meals delicious as can be within the rules they've set up. So do people who keep kosher, I imagine. You can follow a strict regime without completely jettisoning pleasure. I already spoke to this issue in an earlier comment, with another vegan poster who claimed not to chafe at all under the restrictions of your common practice. If you're happy with the culinary pleasures you can wring out of the materials you allow yourself, I'm pleased for you. "Nuns fret not at their convent's narrow room" is true for some, I suppose.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 7:47 PM on October 2, 2009

And you've missed my point.
posted by kyrademon at 7:50 PM on October 2, 2009

I already spoke to this issue in an earlier comment, with another vegan poster who claimed not to chafe at all under the restrictions of your common practice. If you're happy with the culinary pleasures you can wring out of the materials you allow yourself, I'm pleased for you. (Emphasis mine.)

I'll ask again: Why do you maintain that there is something false or inadequate about food preferences that diverge from your own? Until you can answer this question, everything you're saying is just bombast and sophistry.
posted by mellifluous at 7:56 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

[Everything eatyourcellphone has said]

GRAR DON'T BE FUCKING STUPID.

This x 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Man, and I thought I had said some crazy dumb shit on a thread about veganism. I wouldn't even know where to begin trying to explain how completely idiotic you sound, eatyourcellphone.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:56 PM on October 2, 2009

eatyourcellphone: No, you see, here is the thing.. this is not about avoiding pleasure. If it were, then more pleasurable things would be off limits, least pleasurable thing would be held in best regard, and things that are somewhere in the middle would be allowed because "you need to have a little fun", as you say. (as an aside, you're wrong about that, too, many ascetics deny pleasure wholesale - food, sex, comfortable clothes, something soft to sit on, temperature conditioning, etc). Instead, what you see is some of the most pleasurable and luxurious foods grouped together with middling foods and very plain foods. Sauteed broccoli with kale and mushrooms, cardamom and nutmeg and pepper are much tastier that anything I tried with meat in it. Plain oatmeal is almost inedible to me. Both are considered equally healthy - oatmeal does not get bonus points for being boring. Your theory is wrong, find a new one.
posted by rainy at 7:59 PM on October 2, 2009

The comparison to anorexia mirabilis was to point out that both it and veganism are puritanical, obsessive and radically politicize/spiritualize the act of eating.

Be that as it may, and I'm far from convinced - although, as an omnivore, I don't even pretend to speak for vegans or indeed the food choices of anyone else - so what?
posted by rtha at 7:59 PM on October 2, 2009

"The comparison to anorexia mirabilis was to point out that both it and veganism are puritanical, obsessive and radically politicize/spiritualize the act of eating."

If begging the question was soy burgers you'd be a vegan! And to your aphorisms, I coin one myself: None so condescending as an idiot.
posted by klangklangston at 8:02 PM on October 2, 2009

I guess I'm just not seeing the spiritual element to it. There's a moral element, but I don't see the spiritual one. That does not resonate with me.
posted by josher71 at 8:09 PM on October 2, 2009

Rainy pretty much has it. Here's what I was actually saying:

To compare veganism to anorexia mirabilis, you are effectively making the argument that the *purpose* of veganism is deprivation, leading to the subsidiary notions of sin (something that it forbidden simply because it is proscribed, rather than there being a logical reason, such as backyard eggs), obsession with definition (e.g., is yeast an animal, and therefore proscribed?), and purity (e.g., everything eaten must be completely free of the taint of animals.)

The problem with this is that it doesn't much resemble any actual veganism besides the one you have made up in your head.

As I mentioned before, I would be happy to eat backyard eggs, yeast even if it was defined as an "animal", and have no problem with the notion that I cannot achieve complete "purity".

That is because I have made an actual ethical decision and am attempting to adhere to it insofar as is reasonably possible, rather than clinging blindly to some bizarre notion of what foods are "pure".

As a result, I, and most vegans, would be perfectly happy to eat exact substitutes for the foods you think we must "deprive" ourselves of -- say, vat-grown meats, or precise substitutes, or what have you -- as long as they don't violate our considered ethics. Hence the proliferation of fake meats, cheeses, ice cream, etc., which have been discussed in this thread and constantly improved in quality over the years.

When "sin" is the issue, the "trappings" are considered as sinful as the "original" -- because the issue is purity, sin, deprivation, and definition. Consider how sex is regarded by those sects that think of sex as "sinful". Replications of the sex act are often considered *worse*. This is because the issue is deprivation and sin, not any actual issue that can be logically avoided by switching to a reasonable equivalent.
posted by kyrademon at 8:20 PM on October 2, 2009

The comparison to anorexia mirabilis was to point out that both it and veganism are puritanical, obsessive and radically politicize/spiritualize the act of eating.

Good grief. If I thought he was serious I'd respond. Please don't feed the troll.

More good recipes.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:20 PM on October 2, 2009

I'll ask again: Why do you maintain that there is something false or inadequate about food preferences that diverge from your own?

We judge other people's ethical choices all the time. Can she really be happy giving up her high-paying job because she's a Christian and should tend to her household and family? How can they shop at Wal-Mart when they know what an awful company it is? I don't see why veganism is immune from this.

this is not about avoiding pleasure. If it were, then more pleasurable things would be off limits, least pleasurable thing would be held in best regard, and things that are somewhere in the middle would be allowed because "you need to have a little fun", as you say.

That bears no resemblance to what I was talking about. It's not about the relative levels of pleasure food can provide. It's about foods being grouped into 'permitted' and 'forbidden', and the pleasure derived from the consciousness that one is following the rules - not eating the forbidden things - and therefore being ideologically 'right'. The differing levels of physical pleasure derived from eating a mango and eating oatmeal are not relevant. Many delicious things are kosher, and I'm sure many non-kosher things aren't very delicious. That's not what it's about. But it's still silly and puritanical and crankish. It still subjugates the body to elaborate proscriptions and takes up the adherent's time with fretting about the ideological purity of the substances he ingests.

you're wrong about that, too, many ascetics deny pleasure wholesale

From one of my earlier comments: All but the grimmest doctrines allow their adherents to have some fun. Congratulations, veganism is not one of the grimmest doctrines. The grimmest doctrines are the ones that deny pleasure wholesale.

Sauteed broccoli with kale and mushrooms, cardamom and nutmeg and pepper are much tastier that anything I tried with meat in it.

And the love of Jesus surpasses the love of any mortal man. If you're convinced of your abundant joy in the lifestyle you have chosen, my objections can't bring you down.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 8:21 PM on October 2, 2009

I guess I'm just not seeing the spiritual element to it. There's a moral element, but I don't see the spiritual one. That does not resonate with me.

That's why I wrote politicize/spiritualize. Religious puritanisms make appetites a spiritual matter, while veganism is an ideological puritanism that politicizes certain hungers. And, as I hinted in my very first comment, Western veganism's largely ideological rather than religious nature is in fact its Achilles heel. A rigorous ascetic regime is often more sustainable when it has a religious rather than an ideological underpinning.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 8:27 PM on October 2, 2009

I think there is no way for me to convince you otherwise Cellphone. I do feel that you are incredibly wrong on a number of levels. I hope we can meet in another Metafilter thread where we might agree on something. But, veganism isn't it.

I'll leave you with this: If caring about the treatment of animals is "silly, puritanical and crankish" then I'm ok with that.
posted by josher71 at 8:27 PM on October 2, 2009 [4 favorites]

Giving up, not feeding the troll anymore.

I've found the addition of shitaake mushrooms adds a huge amount of flavor to broths. I recommend them highly to anyone who likes to make soups or stews.
posted by kyrademon at 8:29 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

Oh shit, if you're not vegan, then someone else's veganism isn't about you. Enjoy your steak. Really, I mean that.

I'm grilling portobello fajitas tomorrow night. You need a great big portobello mushroom per person, a red onion and red bell pepper for every 3-4 people, 3-4 flour tortillas per person, some guacamole, salsa, sour cream and cheese, vegan or dairy as you like. Cut the veggies into strips, marinate the portobellos in about 1 cup beer, 1/2 cup olive oil, 1 teaspoon cumin and some garlic. Toss the peppers and onions with the marinade just before draining all and grilling. Ooh, and I need to go to the liquor store and get more tequilla because now I want frozen Margaritas. I think I'll put the Margarita recipe on my blog this weekend. I thought about participating in VeganMoFo but I'm kind of lazy.
posted by zinfandel at 8:30 PM on October 2, 2009 [3 favorites]

I'll ask again: Why do you maintain that there is something false or inadequate about food preferences that diverge from your own?

We judge other people's ethical choices all the time. Can she really be happy giving up her high-paying job because she's a Christian and should tend to her household and family?

I didn't ask you to justify judging other people's ethical choices. I asked you to justify why you seem to think no one could genuinely prefer the taste of strawberries to steak, on a purely sensual level. (Please do not, again, retreat to snarky some non-answer like "The love of Jesus surpasses the love of any mortal man." No one here is fooled by those cheap rhetorical tricks.)

Your whole argument rests on this premise - vegans give up real pleasures for false ones, due to sanctimony or misguided asceticism or whatever. And people reply "But I love broccoli/strawberries/kale!" And then you dismiss their stated food preferences with remarks like the one I quoted above, about how what they really love is their fake spiritual pleasure. But, of course, food preferences are intensely personal and subjective and vary wildly from person to person and everyone knows it. The fact that your argument requires you to claim otherwise means that your argument is wrong.
posted by mellifluous at 8:31 PM on October 2, 2009

Well, to give cellphonivore more advocacy than he deserves, the argument that overdeliberate, intellectually motivated diets are, essentially, disordered is relatively sensible if you believe in a dietary behavioral normal/baseline/ideal.

But, I would say there's really no separating behavioral habituation from food consumption, and anyway, people's dietary choice and contentment are unbelievably personal, and WHAT ARE CALLED MATTERS OF TASTE.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 8:32 PM on October 2, 2009

"It's about foods being grouped into 'permitted' and 'forbidden', and the pleasure derived from the consciousness that one is following the rules - not eating the forbidden things - and therefore being ideologically 'right'."

How's that question begging taste?

So, if a vegan feels deprived, but unable to ethically make another choice—thereby drawing no pleasure from veganism qua veganism—that's OK?

Or is this really that you feel that you're suffering because you recognize that the morally consistent position is veganism, and that's why you're lashing out? You recognize how horribly and irredeemably compromised your moral position is, and that causes you to ache deep within? It's OK—you don't have to eat bacon with every meal. You might even feel, I don't know, overloaded and constrained by your insistence on having the maximal amount of flesh in your mouth at all times. It's OK. You don't have to blame vegans for this.
posted by klangklangston at 8:33 PM on October 2, 2009

re the pie crust: I'm just realizing that the vegan crust we (and by we I mean my partner; my pie crust is like a hockey puck) make is made with the vegan margarine. And it's just not as tender/flaky as the non-vegan one. Hmmm.

Often pie crust makers combine butter with shortening because butter is about 80% fat, and 20% water, while shortening is all fat. Margarine has to be 80% fat to be called "margarine" so make sure you're not using vegan "spread" or "light" (whipped with air and butter) or "shortening" (may not actually be hydrogentated). If you're still having problems with actual margarine, add some vegetable shortening to it and make sure that everything stays very cold (chill margarine well and be hardcore about not overworking it).
posted by oneirodynia at 8:34 PM on October 2, 2009

eatyourcellphone: I reject veganism because I reject everything that is glum and Puritanical and anti-pleasure.

That's what you said. As I've pointed out it's not anti-pleasure, therefore not glum. As for being Puritanical, I can't look into the brains of vegans, and neither can you so we can only have pointless conjecture about this.
posted by rainy at 8:35 PM on October 2, 2009

I asked you to justify why you seem to think no one could genuinely prefer the taste of strawberries to steak, on a purely sensual level.

Of course they can. Now, show me the vegan who gave up all animal foods because strawberries are so yummy. Vegans aren't proposing that all non-animal foods are better than animal foods because they're universally better-tasting. You want me to believe that there are numerous vegans who don't miss bacon or leather shoes or the freedom to go to any restaurant they like or something that's available to those around them? Veganism isn't an aesthetic based on the superiority of non-animal alternatives in all scenarios. It's an ethical choice with at least some element of sacrifice in it.

If you never ever miss any of the animal products you once enjoyed, well you're lucky enough to be a natural vegan. But I doubt there are many of you.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 8:41 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

I sure as shit don't miss chicken, which smells like blood being washed off concrete with a hose, or pork, which smells of sickly shit.

But take my Coho and I pretend your fingers are Hufu.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 8:46 PM on October 2, 2009

Or is this really that you feel that you're suffering because you recognize that the morally consistent position is veganism, and that's why you're lashing out?

Who called whom 'cocksweat'? Who pictured himself running over whom with a Humvee? Vegans can convince me of the rightness of their way by showing me how satisfied they are, not by ranting.

I don't eat much meat. I'll gladly cook with lentils, beans, tofu and so on, but I love to cook with eggs. I eat meat sparingly because it's best in moderation and rather expensive. But I don't think veganism is morally consistent. I think it is an affectation and a pose.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 8:50 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

eatyourcellphone: Your problem is that you're used to the taste of meat and you don't realize that our taste is malleable. To me, meat seems like a heavy, nasty type of food, not very appealing in terms of taste; but if I had to eat it, not a huge deal. The only nice thing about meat is that you can do something that tastes ok easily. With vegetarian food, you need some skill under your belt but the results are going to be better than meat dishes. Meat isn't very tasty, its taste just incites a sort of pig-like passion; a properly crafted vegetarian dish, on the other hand, teaches you to have a much subtler and refined taste.
posted by rainy at 8:53 PM on October 2, 2009

Ok, I'll bite. What is the moral inconsistency?
posted by josher71 at 8:54 PM on October 2, 2009

Vegans aren't proposing that all non-animal foods are better than animal foods because they're universally better-tasting.

I never claimed that vegans held such a position. I claimed it's absurd to respond to other people's stated food preferences with the smug attitude that they are trapped in self-delusion. Which you did. And it is absurd.

You want me to believe that there are numerous vegans who don't miss bacon or leather shoes or the freedom to go to any restaurant they like or something that's available to those around them? Veganism isn't an aesthetic based on the superiority of non-animal alternatives in all scenarios. It's an ethical choice with at least some element of sacrifice in it.

Maybe there's some sacrifice for some proportion of vegans, but by resorting to these hyperbolic analogies to religious self-starvation, you clearly intend to greatly exaggerate the amount of suffering and sacrifice involved. The truth is, if veganism is more akin to a slight inconvenience than the Heavy Yoke of Righteousness, your argument loses it's force.
posted by mellifluous at 8:57 PM on October 2, 2009

Vegans can convince me of the rightness of their way by showing me how satisfied they are,

A lot of them have been doing just that, but then you call them defensive and delusional. Your arguments are not in good faith.
posted by rtha at 8:59 PM on October 2, 2009 [4 favorites]

"I'm grilling portobello fajitas tomorrow night."

I have the damnedest time keeping portabellas from getting slimy, especially on the gills side. Do I need to cut all of that off or what?
posted by klangklangston at 9:01 PM on October 2, 2009

Hmm ... never had that problem with portabellas. How are you cooking them?
posted by kyrademon at 9:07 PM on October 2, 2009

Stop derailing the derail.
posted by gman at 9:09 PM on October 2, 2009

Meat isn't very tasty, its taste just incites a sort of pig-like passion

Yeah, I can't help myself. I'm not subtle and refined. Once I get a sniff of the butcher's apron, I descend into a purely sensual state. I'll hold up your granny for the basket of sausages she has over her arm. Seriously, as I've stated above, I see veganism as an ideological not a religious puritanism. But you're making it hard to keep that distinction clear. 'A pig-like passion?' Seriously.

I claimed it's absurd to respond to other people's stated food preferences with the smug attitude that they are trapped in self-delusion. Which you did. And it is absurd.

I suggested that people who fly off the handle when their devotion to kale and broccoli is questioned might not be as wholly satisfied with those foods as they claim. This isn't a totally unheard of argument. I often read on metafilter that those who protest loudest and longest about homosexuality are really queer themselves. Why is the same thing impossible with veganism. If there are some gays trapped in the closet by the expectations of those around them, there must be some vegans trapped in the...vegetable crisper.

It's interesting that you think comparing vegans' attitude to their diet with a Christian's attitude to Jesus is a slam. Christians really believe in that guy, you know. Some of them. Usually the ones who proclaim it least.

Maybe there's some sacrifice for some proportion of vegans, but by resorting to these hyperbolic analogies to religious self-starvation, you clearly intend to greatly exaggerate the amount of suffering and sacrifice involved. The truth is, if veganism is more akin to a slight inconvenience than the Heavy Yoke of Righteousness, your argument loses it's force.

I already pointed out that anorexia mirabilis and veganism are very different in degree, if not in kind. Veganism is not an inconvenience, though. It affects every meal you make. You may have adapted to it, the way a nun will adapt to the rule of her convent until it becomes automatic and invisible. This makes your practice more profoundly central to your experience, not less.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 9:10 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

"Who called whom 'cocksweat'? Who pictured himself running over whom with a Humvee? Vegans can convince me of the rightness of their way by showing me how satisfied they are, not by ranting.

I don't eat much meat. I'll gladly cook with lentils, beans, tofu and so on, but I love to cook with eggs. I eat meat sparingly because it's best in moderation and rather expensive. But I don't think veganism is morally consistent. I think it is an affectation and a pose."

I called you cocksweat, because I've been trying to cut down on the word "retard" in my vocabulary. If you'd like, you can imagine that I called you a "retard" instead. I did not picture myself running you down with a Humvee; I pointed out that an ethical system based purely on privileging pleasure justifies rape, SUV driving and murdering people that you disagree with, which we realize is absurd. As I'm not a vegan, I doubt that I'll ever be able to show you how satisfied vegans are. Because I've said that I'm not a vegan at least a couple of times here, I note that not only are your arguments stupid, your powers of observation are also lacking.

Regarding your feelings that veganism is morally inconsistent and an affectation, well, you know, you actually have to support that with reasoning, rather than just a bunch of fallacies and jibberjabber, otherwise it's rational to dismiss you as a moron. You know, like a creationist or bird worshiper.
posted by klangklangston at 9:12 PM on October 2, 2009

Scraping off the gills should help, but they really shouldn't become slimy when grilled or sauteed. I tend to only scrape the gills out when I am stuffing the mushrooms or using it as a base for something.

Since a few have started tossing in recipes, this is one of my all-time favorite meals. I always just sort of wing this. It only takes about 8 minutes to prepare.

1 can chickpeas, drained
2 servings (dry) couscous, prepare as directed
Chopped, fresh or frozen broccoli (or other vegetable of your choice)
Garlic, lots of garlic (about 3 cloves or more if you're like me)
Olive oil
salt, pepper
Basil or Italian blend seasoning (optional)

Make couscous and fluff it, boil veggies, add chickpeas, garlic, and veggies to couscous, drizzle with olive oil to taste, add salt, pepper, and spices, fluff up and eat. (serves about 2, or 1 hungry person)

I tend to also add grated parmesan, but it is tasty without it, and a versatile dish as you can toss almost any vegetable in there and it will taste good. Add toasted nuts if you'd like, or tofu cubes, lemon juice, etc, use your imagination.
posted by cmgonzalez at 9:18 PM on October 2, 2009

I realize you're not a vegan, klangklangston. The line about 'vegans showing me' was addressing the situation as a whole. I was going to write something about how your vigorous tirade disproved the stereotype of the wan and listless vegan and didn't, because I realize you're not one, but just a vegan groupie. I'm sorry if I didn't parse your ranting about murder and SUVs properly, I tend to skip over unnecessary and inflammatory violent imagery, the same way a vegan wouldn't want to look at pictures of a chicken being sacrificed. I'm also trying to pay more attention to the actual vegans, rather than the sympathizers with strange issues who leap in to defend the vegans.

I didn't say veganism was morally inconsistent, I merely rejected your suggestion I believed it was so. 'I don't think veganism is morally consistent' is not the same as 'I think veganism is not morally consistent.' I simply sought to reject a belief you claimed I have.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 9:22 PM on October 2, 2009

This thread is great. It's like a MetaTalk and a regular Metafilter post combined into one. Fabulous.
posted by josher71 at 9:23 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

(Ah, I was waiting for that argument: "You are unhappy doing that."
"What? No I'm not!"
"You just proved you are. Truly happy people don't proclaim it."
"But I was just responding to what you said!"
"And thereby protesting too much."
"What?"
"If you actually reply to me in any way, I assume you have proven my point, you poor miserable bastard.")

Are you washing the portabellos before you cook them? Because that can make them slimy. Might want to try cleaning them with a dry brush.
posted by kyrademon at 9:23 PM on October 2, 2009 [4 favorites]

I didn't say veganism was morally inconsistent, I merely rejected your suggestion I believed it was so. 'I don't think veganism is morally consistent' is not the same as 'I think veganism is not morally consistent.' I simply sought to reject a belief you claimed I have.

I am really confused.
posted by josher71 at 9:26 PM on October 2, 2009

I go away for 3 hours and this thread blows the hell up.

kyrademon's summary of this thread really reminds me of the Scientology anecdote my dad tells from when he first moved to the Bay Area. "You aren't really happy. If you were happy, you wouldn't have to say that you're happy" etc.

So yeah, either Scientologists use the same script as trolls, or vegan-haters are secret scientologists.
posted by muddgirl at 9:32 PM on October 2, 2009

klangklangston, I don't scrape the gills off and I don't think they come out slimey. lf you cook them on a grill pan like this the moisture can drain off. Plus, the oil in the marinade hits the hot coals and makes everything taste smoky.
posted by zinfandel at 9:42 PM on October 2, 2009

This thread is great. It's like a MetaTalk and a regular Metafilter post combined into one. Fabulous.
People have the right to disapprove of your lifestyle. If the post were about astrology, you wouldn't just have people talking about Mercury retrograde or whatever. You'd have people criticizing the fringe belief espoused. And you'd have hardcore zealots like kyrademon brazenly misrepresenting the opposing side, and people who actually engage with the arguments put forth, like josher71. It would be a trainwreck like this.

I said my piece only after one person invited those who disapprove of veganism to 'fuck off'. I would not have commented otherwise. The idea that veganism is some unassailable ideology is unacceptable to me.

I think I've provided a new and illuminating way to view veganism, an ideology I reject as decadent. Perhaps I'm totally wrong, perhaps I'm not. This thread will always be here for others to judge. And hopefully someone enjoyed the irony of seeing vegans baying for another's blood :P Please do me the favor of seeing my disapproval of this thinking and this mode of life as genuine.

I realize that I've allowed myself to take over this thread, and I'm sorry. I can't agree with your chosen path, vegans. Let's leave it there.

I am really confused.

Sorry. That second sentence should be something like 'I merely rejected your suggestion that I secretly believed it was morally consistent'. Klangklangston is so wild in the way he writes, he's hard to respond to coherently.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 9:42 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

Ah, yes, I totally took it for granted that someone might wash a mushroom. If you don't have a food brush, a dry or slightly damp paper towel will do.
posted by cmgonzalez at 9:44 PM on October 2, 2009

Wait, is this thread about mushrooms? Because I was talking about mushrooms. Is everybody else talking about mushrooms? I can't tell.
posted by zinfandel at 9:47 PM on October 2, 2009

I was talking about mushrooms some, but apparently only because I am an affected, decadent, hardcore zealot.
posted by kyrademon at 9:49 PM on October 2, 2009

This thread is about way too many things at this point, but at least some of us are trying to talk about food. Mushrooms are a wonderful thing, so the more talk about them, the merrier.

I like grilling portabellos, topping them with tomato slices, and serving as sandwiches on toast. The juices from the tomato and mushroom dampen the soft inside of bread and the whole thing just tastes so good. It's also good with some basil, (or a little mozzarella, though I use that rarely).
posted by cmgonzalez at 10:00 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

I realize that I've allowed myself to take over this thread, and I'm sorry. I can't agree with your chosen path, vegans. Let's leave it there.

Jesus Christ. Nobody needs or wants your approval. They only reject your lunatic claims about their lives and choices.

----

The ports we grill don't turn out slimy, I don't think. Depending on the marinade, they may be kind of...juicy, but not slimy. Is your fire hot enough?
posted by rtha at 10:01 PM on October 2, 2009

Mushrooms are a wonderful thing, so the more talk about them, the merrier

Hell yeah. It's chanterelle season up here in the northwest, and there's pretty much nothing better than sauteeing some chanterelles in butter with shallots and garlic (watch them as they cook-- they'll release a ton of moisture which will make it look all watery and slimy, but if you're patient and wait a few more minutes, they'll suck all the moisture back up again) and then finishing them with a splash of heavy cream and some fresh thyme leaves. Meanwhile, slice a baguette thinly on the bias, brush with olive oil and grate just a little Parmigiano-Reggiano onto the slices. Broil the slices of bread for a minute, and then top with the chanterelle mixture. That, my friends, is the pinnacle of mushroom deliciousness.
posted by dersins at 10:07 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

I want chanterelle bourguignon now, or when it gets cool down here. Maybe that will be part of Thanksgiving dinner.

Sunday, we're having Thai curry with baked tofu, sugar snap peas and sweet potatoes - pineapple and rice on the side.
posted by zinfandel at 10:15 PM on October 2, 2009

We've got a passel of homemade seitan and have made pot pies and fajitas with it so far. Gotta keep the celiacs at bay!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:22 PM on October 2, 2009

I think I've provided a new and illuminating way to view veganism, an ideology I reject as decadent. Perhaps I'm totally wrong, perhaps I'm not. This thread will always be here for others to judge.

LOL.

delusions of grandeur. see a therapist.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:39 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

I'm impressed that it took four whole posts for the dickishness to start.

Metafilter, I accept that you don't do vegetarianism well. But I don't like it.
posted by mintcake! at 10:43 PM on October 2, 2009

eatyourcellphone has gone the way of the dining room table, I'm afraid, and it is quite clear he is nuts. I would just like to mention, as a bit of a coda, however, that his insane puritanical anti-veganism/anti-everythingism really is just as pure in its rejection and just as severe in its puritanism as that which she/he wishes to decry.

eatyourcellphone: before you make any more of an ass of yourself, I suggest you 1) eat your laptop and 2) go read books.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:45 PM on October 2, 2009

"I didn't say veganism was morally inconsistent, I merely rejected your suggestion I believed it was so."

"But I don't think veganism is morally consistent. I think it is an affectation and a pose."

If you don't think it is consistent, then you think it is inconsistent.
posted by klangklangston at 10:45 PM on October 2, 2009 [4 favorites]

Klangklangston is so wild in the way he writes, he's hard to respond to coherently.

Hahahaha. Sorry. That's just hilarious. Ok, I'm done now.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:48 PM on October 2, 2009

QED.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:49 PM on October 2, 2009

Well, of course this thread turned ugly. The youth of amerika are unable to identify a portabello mushroom.
posted by klangklangston at 10:52 PM on October 2, 2009 [7 favorites]

eatyourcellphone says:But your not effing and blinding like your co-vegan purephase, so perhaps you're that rare bird who is happier in its cage.

First off, you trolling asshat, I'm not vegan. Despite your thesis laden prose, you have zero respect for the beliefs and opinions of others. Not only are your arguments spurious, they're ridiculous.

You're an Ignatius. I would flag the hell out of your comments if I even remotely thought it would get anywhere.
posted by purephase at 11:01 PM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]

I think I've provided a new and illuminating way to view veganism, an ideology I reject as decadent.

I'm about to blow your mind: I've spent the last 16 years hearing your argument lots of times. People who want to convince me to eat meat (a goal which I can't comprehend, never having tried to convince anyone not to) always think they're the very first person to come up with their talking points. "Well, what if carrots have feelings? What if you were starving on a DESERT ISLAND with just a chicken carcass? Huh? Bet you never thought of that!" Yeah, I did, the last time someone tried to drag me into debating what I like to eat.
posted by lemuria at 11:05 PM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]

The idea that dietary preferences based on religio-philosophical principles are the innovation, as opposed to fat-necking whatever a commodity food industry throws at you, is comically ahistorical. Records of consciously chosen diets or taboo foods date back as far as the earliest recorded history and they have been central to the cultural life of all the major human civilisations.
That some people continue to make that quintessentially human act of conscious choice as opposed to cravenly submitting to the commercial manipulation of their base gluttony ought to be cause for celebration, but there's always those deluded slaves who'll defend their mental manacles.
There, I think that should get the thread back on track.
posted by Abiezer at 11:32 PM on October 2, 2009 [5 favorites]

I thought you wanted to talk about mushrooms. But apparently you want to talk about me. So I've made a comeback. You vegans and pseudo-vegans are a funny, hot-blooded lot, aren't ya?

Lutoslawski: his insane puritanical anti-veganism/anti-everythingism really is just as pure in its rejection and just as severe in its puritanism as that which she/he wishes to decry.

Anti-everythingism? I've expressed my objections to veganism and repressive religious practices. How is that 'everything'?

purephase:First off, you trolling asshat, I'm not vegan.

I'm beginning to think that none of you is vegan. You're just jumping in to defend it for peculiar reasons of your own. I suppose vegans are some kind of talisman for you, living the pure life so you don't have to.

Lemuria: I'm about to blow your mind: I've spent the last 16 years hearing your argument lots of times. People who want to convince me to eat meat (a goal which I can't comprehend, never having tried to convince anyone not to) always think they're the very first person to come up with their talking points.

Really, you've heard veganism compared with medieval asceticism and Jewish dietary law? Well, I'm sorry, I tried for something original. What I wrote was certainly nothing like 'what if a carrot had feelings'. Get over your anger and at least disagree with what I actually said.

And who tried to convince you to eat meat? I reject your odd beliefs, but I don't actually care what you as an individual eat for dinner. Do as you please. Besides, it's not just about meat. People who swallow a tablespoon of honey every morning or eat an egg a week are non-vegans. Maybe I'm a honey advocate, or work for the Egg Marketing Board. Just because meat is your big bugaboo, don't assume it's on my mind all the time.

klangklangston: If you don't think it is consistent, then you think it is inconsistent.

I don't think it's morally consistent. I don't think it's morally inconsistent. Before you attempted to put words in my mouth, I'd never thought of veganism in these specific terms at all.

Abiezer: The idea that dietary preferences based on religio-philosophical principles are the innovation, as opposed to fat-necking whatever a commodity food industry throws at you, is comically ahistorical.

Yeah, I think dietary preferences based on religio-philosophical principles are an innovation. That's why I spoke about Biblical laws and the diets of medieval saints. Because the Old Testament and the Middle Ages are so modern and now! Part of my point was that veganism is just a weird secularization of religious tropes.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 12:44 AM on October 3, 2009

Part of my point was that veganism is just a weird secularization of religious tropes.
What's weird about it, other than it not floating your boat? A sizeable chunk of modern cultural practices and social relationships could be described in the same terms. Seems like you're somehow singling this behaviour out when really it's not unusual at all.
posted by Abiezer at 1:02 AM on October 3, 2009

Wow - I just realised I'm almost a vegan now. Oats with soy milk and golden syrup for breakfast. Baked beans and homemade bread for lunch. Fruit, nuts, dark chocolate and soy shakes for snacks and dessert. If I didn't have meat for dinner, I'd be vegan. Hrm. I could probably live quite easily on carefully simmered pulses and vegetables, cunningly seasoned and garnished, mopped up with various exotic breads, grains, rice, noodles and pasta. Indian today, Ethiopian tomorrow, Mexican the day after that...French lentils, Italian beans, glorious Japanese tofu, an enormous salad doused in olive oil and lemon juice...hell, peanut butter and banana on toast is an awesome dinner!
posted by obiwanwasabi at 1:13 AM on October 3, 2009

Abiezer: A sizeable chunk of modern cultural practices and social relationships could be described in the same terms. Seems like you're somehow singling this behaviour out when really it's not unusual at all.

Veganism injects a particularly unpleasant religious paradigm back into the secular mainstream.

Previous posters seemed to think there was a conflict between my calling veganism both 'affected' and a milieu for 'hardcore zealots'. But decadence and zeal are two sides of the same coin. Religions start to take on florid and grotesque forms when belief is challenged. They become legalistic and obsessed with minutiae, but at the same time hysterical displays of ardor begin to erupt. These hysterical declarations of undying love for Jesus (or broccoli) and ruminations on the number of angels on the head of a pin (or the precise nature of yeast) are designed to reassure both onlookers and the doubt-stricken believer himself of the truth of the Faith. Puritanism is the most decadent, affected religious form, because it is all about going to theatrical, obsessive extremes to convince oneself and others. It's a pose that wants to fool itself, not just onlookers!

Veganism's conundrum is that it is a non-religious practice built on the same plan as religious practice. But vegans obviously never had religious faith in veganism, so they automatically suffer from the problem of puritanism. They have to be hysterical and vituperative and declamatory, because they are trying to convince themselves of the truth of a faith that's not a faith. And the pseudo-vegans are even worse, because they are always conscious of their failure to accept the full discipline.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 2:11 AM on October 3, 2009

What a bunch of troll shit! Calloo callay!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:20 AM on October 3, 2009

What a bunch of troll shit!

That's right. Everyone who doesn't think like you is a troll.

Tell me why it is impossible/forbidden to disagree with or disapprove of veganism? Every other way of life and mode of thought is open to criticism. Or should be.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 2:33 AM on October 3, 2009

Of course you can disagree or disapprove, just strikes me that when you attribute an injecting of a "particularly unpleasant religious paradigm back into the secular mainstream" to veganism, it merely says you're blind to other irrational survivals of past practices that inform modern cultural mores and commodity fetishism. Very little of the way we live today is the consequence of some cold Utilitarian take on life. In many ways, by being a more conscious choice, veganism can be seen as less insidious than an unconsidered acceptance of mainstream values as somehow more rational.
posted by Abiezer at 2:44 AM on October 3, 2009

you're blind to other irrational survivals of past practices...

I am? I care about many things other than veganism. You'd hardly thank me if I started to list them here, but credit me with some scope.

veganism can be seen as less insidious than an unconsidered acceptance of mainstream values as somehow more rational.

There are options other than 'veganism' and 'couch-welded cheeto-vacuum'. You don't know what I think about dietary approaches other than veganism. You don't even know what I think about non-vegan vegetarianism. Like other posters, you seem to think I'm mindlessly advocating some sort of 'EAT A COW A DAY' super-consumerism. I'm not. I just think anything as Lenten and drab as veganism is unnecessary and even counter-productive. It puts pleasure and practicality too far down the list to be a viable alternative.

And what's non-mainstream about veganism? It seems pretty middle-class to me. Hence its over-representation on Metafilter.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 3:13 AM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

eatyourcellphone, throughout this thread you have strenuously objected to the policization of food choices that vegans make. The claim seems to be that applying an ideology to the food we eat is affected, slavish, decadent, puritanical, cult-like, obsessive zealotry.

But the thing is, mate, you also have an ideology when it comes to food. Or at least I hope you do. I imagine you probably wouldn't eat bonoboes at a bushmeat market in Africa, or endangered whales in Japan, or hunt and kill a snow leopard for the pleasure of it. I imagine you wouldn't eat people or babies killed against their will, if Jeffrey Dahmer invited you to tea.

There's no ideology-free zone when it comes to eating (unless you're Dahmer, maybe). Everyone else, including you, picks and chooses where to draw the line and say "I won't eat that bonobo, though it may well be tasty, because of my ideology, or moral philosophy". Most meat-eaters wouldn't eat a bonobo, while veg*ns won't eat a pig. Why is that so hard to fucking grok?
posted by dontjumplarry at 3:32 AM on October 3, 2009 [3 favorites]

I think it all comes down to the fact that people are just too damned busy, too stressed out and too conditioned towards a distaste of bodily functions to pay a sufficient amount of attention to what they are depositing into the toilet bowl. The quality of your excrement is a good indicator of how your diet is working for you. How often do you shit? What color is it? What consistency does it have? Does it smell healthy? Was it relatively difficult or painful for you to produce it?

I think this is something that contributes a lot to health issues: people would just as soon not look too closely at their shit. This is understandable, but I think it's a big mistake. Your ability to shit well is a good way to gauge the overall state of your health. This is just common sense (which, like most common sense is rather rare) and relies upon nothing more than your own experience.

So pay attention to what's coming out of your backsides, people. Garbage in/garbage out; input/output = byproduct. The vegetarian/vegan diet isn't going to work for everyone - we're all tuned a little differently, plus we're all subject to various social influences. I would be quite happy to go without the consumption of meat altogether, but I'm married to a woman who needs a certain amount of meat to maintain her health. So, in the interest of not wasting food in a world where so many are going hungry, I eat it too.

It kind of grosses me out, but I can deal with that. What really bothers me is that our food is so damned aduterated, be it vegetable or animal. I do love these vegan threads whenever they pop up here. Food for thought.
posted by metagnathous at 4:18 AM on October 3, 2009

I am? I care about many things other than veganism.
Then it makes your suggestion that it's more 'affected' than any of these other things just your spin based on a personal distaste rather than some essential quality unique to veganism. Your opinion is duly noted.
posted by Abiezer at 4:57 AM on October 3, 2009

I know quite a few vegans and vegetarians and none of them have ever given me a hard time about being an omnivore. But Mr. Arkham gets the third degree on his dietary preferences from omnivores all the time.

Also, if anyone thinks vegans/vegetarians are drab and Puritanical...they don't know my friends. And they have never eaten one of these. *drool*
posted by JoanArkham at 5:17 AM on October 3, 2009

What a shitty comment!
posted by scrutiny at 5:38 AM on October 3, 2009

Look, people can live by eating virtually anything. That's why we're built as omnivores. Whether or not a certain pattern of eating is healthy or not is a completely different consideration and one that could be considered orthogonal to any particular ideology, unless the reason for the ideology is strictly based on health. It is my understanding that this is not the case with veganism - as there's a moral animal component involved - but is the case with other methods of food selection - such as primal or paleo. There are a myriad of reasons people might eat from one group or another: ideology, health, taste, allergies, etc. Ascribing to one set of food choices and then calling everyone else who chooses otherwise a loon basically assumes that the lifestyle choices you chose to make are somehow better than the lifestyle choices others have chosen for themselves. I'm really talking to all sides of this argument here. If you've got a problem with other people eating meat because of ideology reasons, don't assume those who eat meat have no respect for animals. Similarly, if you refuse to disallow any food out of hedonistic/consumption reasons, don't assume that everyone who restricts their diet must be an anhedonist.

People are going to eat whatever the hell they want for whatever reasons they decide. I'm not sure how that's really anyone else's business, nor do I know why everyone seems to think they know what's best for everyone else. Honestly, maybe this whole thing works because everyone is quite different and there exists no one-shot consumption solution that works for everybody. In that case we can still respect each other's differences, stating why we don't believe what they do is right, but understanding that literally everyone is always acting on incomplete information. There is never a global optimal solution, only one that feels right to you.
posted by scrutiny at 5:56 AM on October 3, 2009

As I mentioned before, I would be happy to eat backyard eggs, yeast even if it was defined as an "animal", and have no problem with the notion that I cannot achieve complete "purity".

That is because I have made an actual ethical decision and am attempting to adhere to it insofar as is reasonably possible, rather than clinging blindly to some bizarre notion of what foods are "pure".

That makes you a pretty rare vegan, I think. Right now I have eggs from backyard chickens in my fridge. I know a number of vegans, and I don't think any of them would say "wow, no problem, I'll eat eggs at your house because those are so awesomely ethical!"

My experience of vegans (which has included being one for a short time, long ago) is that it really is about purity. That doesn't make it totally irrational, any more than keeping strictly kosher is irrational or bad. And it doesn't even make the food automatically bad -- limiting your choices forces a lot of creativity, as we've seen in the recipes here.

My experience of vegan food has been very binary. On the one hand you have vegan food, often based in the cooking of poor people who can't afford meat, that relies on high-quality ingredients and great flavors, and is fabulous. I, as a happy meat eater, cook and eat those kind of vegan dishes all the time. On the other hand, you have complex vegan recreations of ordinary dairy and meat dishes, like ice cream, cheese, hamburger, etc. Those recreations are, in my experience, significantly less than fabulous.

Really, you've heard veganism compared with medieval asceticism and Jewish dietary law? Well, I'm sorry, I tried for something original.

Look, I kind of agree about the comparison, but to think that it's original? Really? People have been arguing about this stuff since at least the early 1800s in the US, probably a good bit longer in Europe, and making the comparisons to Leviticus and the medieval aescetics (as well as earlier Greek aescetics) for at least as long.
posted by Forktine at 7:08 AM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Wow. You know, a little while ago I was talking to a friend of mine and she asked me if I thought that vegans were ever treated poorly for being vegan, and if that counted - even on the smallest level - as oppression. I told her no; I know tons of vegans, and tons of meat eaters, and they all pretty much get along without being shitty to each other or most of the time even thinking about each others' food choices. Most of them try to eat cheaply and ethically regardless, because that's just the crowd I hang with (young, poor, politically-minded), and though I've been trying to make the switch from vegetarian to vegan for a while now (I'm totally getting there! Eventually!) none of them have ever been judgmental about my moments of dietary weakness.

I like to think that this kind of dynamic is a lot more normal that the condescending bullshit in this thread, but said condescending bullshit has really made me grateful for my local vegan soup kitchen and vegan food co-op, and the non-judgmental attitudes of my friends.

What I'm particularly put off by here, though, is the people claiming that it's somehow wrong to mix politics with food. Why? I'm totally serious. What makes it so not good to mix politics and food? Is it considered bourgeois now for the personal to be political? Because I totally missed that change, and I am way too young to be that out of touch. Seriously.

I make personal decisions all the time that reflect my politics: I take public transit or bike or walk places instead of driving a car. I use cloth bags at the grocery store instead of plastic. I wear mostly used clothes. I read books that interest me, and the books that interest me tend to exclude books that reflect certain ideologies I find wrong and offensive (recently I'm reading A Peoples' History of the American Empire by Howard Zinn; I made the choice, conscious or not, to pick that specific book up instead of one of the many pro-Bush administration polemics that are kicking around used bookstores so often lately). I take short showers. I drink fairly traded coffee. I do lots of volunteer work. When I go back to school in the winter, I will be in the Community and Ethnic Studies program, or possibly Womens' Studies. All of these decisions are reflective of my personal politics. Where does veganism cross the line?
posted by ellehumour at 7:22 AM on October 3, 2009

...it really is about purity...

Forktine, that just doesn't describe most of the vegans that I have encountered; for most, it's solely about playing a (small but important) role in reducing animal suffering.

But I'll agree with you to this extent: there are undoubtedly ethical vegans whose dietary choices are not always 100% aimed at reducing animal suffering in a measurable way. Vegans who wouldn't eat an egg laid on their front porch by a wild duck*, or who wouldn't eat vat-grown meat. Those who wouldn't use a saucepan that's had dairy products in it.

Is that so hard to comprehend, though? Say you're living in a cannibal society; you refuse to partake of the human thigh meat because of your moral stance. Now say someone then comes along and says -- hey Forktine, I've got some human forearm here that's the result of voluntary amputation. It's completely guilt free! Tuck in!

Don't you think it possible that you might hold back from eating the forearm, even though it's morally acceptable to eat it? Or that you might refrain from eating out of the same saucepan that's also cooking the nightly pancreas stew -- even after it's been washed out? That emotive, gut reaction you have, of recoiling, is the same some vegans have when faced with meat or milk, regardless of whether it was ethically produced.

Yeah, it's a gut reaction that's rooted in the human tendency to think in binaries, and in terms of a pure vs contaminated schema. The fact that some vegans have the same quirk that all humans have is completely irrelevant to the moral stance which drives their veganism. It's a sideshow issue.

* The wouldn't-eat-an-egg-from-a-backyard-chicken thing is rather a red herring; many vegans would refrain from this because even humane rearing of domesticated animals ultimately supports an inhumane system -- for example, by creating demand for the killing of male chicks to provide female hens.
posted by dontjumplarry at 8:32 AM on October 3, 2009

Re: Anyone got tips/tricks for a good vegan pie dough?

The key to most good vegan desserts is to make them exactly the same as you find in a traditional cookbook, just with good substitutions. Don't look for a "vegan pie crust" recipe, take the normal pie crust from The Joy of Cooking or something and substitute in an appropriate vegan margarine. Earth Balance works really well, but I'm sure there are others that would also work. You do have to be careful about things like margarine spreads, etc, because these have a higher water content and so they end up getting mixed into the flour rather than "cut" into it, like it should be. Buy a few different kinds of margarine from a "health food" store (whole foods, co-op, whatever) and do some experiments.
posted by beerbajay at 9:03 AM on October 3, 2009

I'd insist on ethical cannibalism -- free range long pork only.

Joking aside, I'm really not that fussed about purity issues. Yes, I'd eat out of a soup pot that had been used to cook people. Maybe that makes me an outlier, or maybe not, I don't know -- it's not a decision that almost anyone has ever had to make.

For many vegans ethics is certainly at the base of their motivation. But that ethical motivation becomes expressed through notions of purity, such as avoiding the most trace of trace contact with animal products. I'm not criticizing that, but it's also not incorrect to note the parallels between common articulations of veganism and common strands of religious aesceticism.

The purity issue becomes clearest when you see how the same intensity of effort goes into avoiding direct and serious harm (eg refusing to eat a steak, because it came directly from a dead cow) and avoiding the most marginal of marginal connections to animal products (eg things like sugar that have perhaps used some animal products in production).

The search for moral perfection, or at least improvement, is a very old tendency in history. Part of what makes modern vegans so fascinating is the connections to, and differences from, previous moral endeavors.
posted by Forktine at 9:17 AM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

I'm beginning to think that none of you is vegan. You're just jumping in to defend it for peculiar reasons of your own. I suppose vegans are some kind of talisman for you, living the pure life so you don't have to.

I'm beginning to think you're out of your tree.

I just think anything as Lenten and drab as veganism is unnecessary and even counter-productive

I guess I should thank you for taking the vegan vs non-vegan argument in a direction that is, as far as I'm aware, totally new to metafilter.

But your insistence on declaring why vegans are vegans and what veganism really is in spite of what actual vegans in this thread are saying reminds me a lot of other white-hot arguments we've had around here where someone will stake out a position in which they insist they know better than the [parents/gays/women/victims of crime/cops] in the thread despite not being a [parent/queer/woman/etc.].

The motivations you ascribe to other people - despite their explanations of what their actual motives are - say more about you than it does about them.

We have cookouts a fair amount, and at these cookouts we have omnivores, vegetarians, pescatarians, and vegans. Everything gets grilled on the same grill - veggies, haloumi ("the cheese you can grill!"), skirt steak, salmon, portobellos, veggie burgers - and everyone eats and drinks and is happy. Nobody demands that the grill be sterilized after the meat and before the vegetables. I don't know what straw vegan you've got living in your head, but I've never encountered such a creature in real life.
posted by rtha at 9:29 AM on October 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

Straw veganism's too strict for me - I like to cut loose and eat a bit of fresh grass every now and then.
posted by Abiezer at 9:42 AM on October 3, 2009 [3 favorites]

"I don't think it's morally consistent. I don't think it's morally inconsistent. Before you attempted to put words in my mouth, I'd never thought of veganism in these specific terms at all."

If something isn't true, it is necessarily false; if a system isn't consistent, it must be inconsistent.

Between this and your bizarre proposition that ascetic lifestyles or puritan lifestyles are the most decadent, I don't believe you actually know what any of these words mean.

Let me put forth an alternate scenario: You don't really know that much about veganism, you've never really thought that much about diet. You hear those vegans are making a different choice than you are, and that they don't like your choice. A bunch of them think you're a great big jerk for your choices, so you've heard, and anyway, the Daily Mail says they kill babies (also, knowing the Daily Mail, that they're all immigrants who take council housing).

You see a post here that mentions vegans, and you wade in, because hey, it annoys you that someone is celebrating those jerks who think you're a jerk. You see a couple of comments from people who agree with you, and you see them being told to fuck off. that makes you mad, because it's those vegans who think you're a jerk for your diet again running roughshod over the normal folks who just want to eat whatever they want.

So you dive in. You're making arguments that seem sophisticated to you, that you've never seen anyone else make. But those jerks, those vegan jerks, they're just making fun of you. They are not patiently explaining to you why you're mistaken; they're implying that you are genital sweat and worthless of consideration. Why would they do that? Especially, as it turns out, because a whole bunch of them aren't even vegans! They must be vegan groupies, or neophyte cultists, or something. You dig in your heels and keep making more and more fervent arguments, but unfortunately, they don't seem to be getting anywhere and those vegan-lovers still haven't convinced you that they're not just great big jerks who think you're a jerk for eating what you want to eat.

Unfortunately, you're not going to win this, because frankly, you came in ignorant, making offensive arguments that you haven't been able to sustain. You've contradicted yourself; you've made arguments that most people who think about their diets confront and refute pretty frequently. You've treated people's choices with contempt; you've been met with contempt in return. I realize that the best outcome would have likely been some sort of teaching moment, but that didn't happen and it's not likely to.

I'm about to make a delicious breakfast—a big skillet of potatoes, shallots, onions, green pepper, tomato, some soyrizo (which is fantastic; Ambrosia will back me up on that. You can put it in anything) and a bunch of chilis. I haven't decided if I want an egg with that yet; I didn't plan for a vegan breakfast, and vegan breakfast (at least in my house) usually means a little bit of planning. Which is part of why I posted this thread—to look at recipe ideas and do the preparation and planning required to make them happen, the same as I would for unfamiliar dishes that weren't vegan. I'd recommend that you drop your assertions and judgment and, you know, go enjoy some food. It's OK. It won't kill you. You can even ladle some chitterlings over it if eating vegan creeps you out.
posted by klangklangston at 10:11 AM on October 3, 2009 [9 favorites]

d'accord. c'est bon.

Mainstream American meat choices are so boring (hamburger? grilled chicken? REALLY?) but I have a hard time turning down the exotic and new. So, I think most people here are "puritanical" and "anti-pleasure" since they don't eat, oh, sesos and amaebi and taramosalata enough, and they don't fish or hunt. The defensive clinging to what's on offer from MeatFarmCorp which is, in common practice, the oppositional position to veganism, is bizarre to me.

I guess the deal is, foodyism is good, and more vegans are attentive eaters, which is a path to truer pleasure than the average alternative person walks.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:35 PM on October 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

I will back you up on the Soyrizo! Another vegan fave is this jambalaya. (I substitute Cajun blend from Penzey's for the Mrs. Dash.)

I'm not a huge fan of fake meat in general, but anything stew or chili-like that cooks for a long time comes out pretty well.
posted by JoanArkham at 2:28 PM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Hmm ... I wonder if eatyourcellphone would have a better understanding if we replied in his/her own language.

Eatyourcellphone, I can only assume that your relentless desire to make the posts you are making in this thread, despite your apparent lack of pleasure in the conversation, are the result of a sexual paraphilia of some kind -- directly related to apotemnophilia, the act of deriving sexual pleasure from the amputation of one's own limbs, sometimes associated with cannibalism. That would, after all, neatly account for increasingly paranoid ideations about the posters here being "out for your blood" or desiring to "run you over"; no doubt this increases your sexual pleasure.

While this is a sad, pathetic, and miserable way of eking a few paltry pleasures out of your empty existence, please do not make the mistake of believing I am insulting you! In fact, I have occasionally indulged in a little bit of BDSM myself, although nothing so depressingly empty as the extreme fetishism you have condemned yourself to, which strikes me as very reminiscent of the self-flagellation penitent monks would indulge in during the late middle-ages. No doubt, they, too, would claim the horrible pain of flogging themselves with barbed whips was actually the sweetest pleasure -- after all, "there's no pain sweeter than pain for Jesus," as they (or you, in a slightly different context), might say.

You may wish to deny that you derive perverted sexual pleasure from this thread. That would, of course, be the surest sign that you are. Why would you deny it unless, deep down, you knew it to be true? That's the source of all denial, after all. If instead you admit it, well, then I'm glad you've finally come out of the closet. And if you say nothing, of course -- "qui tacet consentit", who keeps silent consents, so I'm happy to see you agree with me.

Personally, I think that the fact that you can only indulge your deepest sexual desires with anonymous strangers on a computer is both bourgeoise and priggish. How ludicrous that your fear and hatred of sex is such that you must turn all of your stunted desires to the mental pain of reading posts that disagree with you on Metafilter!

Well, whatever you make of this, I expect you've at least learned something here. After all, I have presented a new and hitherto unheard of theory regarding the origin of trolling, which has never before been thought of by anyone else in history! Pretty amazing. This thread will stand as a testament to my astonishing thoughts, and no doubt the many tens of people who read it in future years will make their own judgments.

You know, I doubt any of that got through in any way, but it sure was fun.
posted by kyrademon at 4:07 PM on October 3, 2009 [17 favorites]

Bravo, kyrademon. I can't wait for eyc to explain that she or he totally isn't into any of those things!
posted by defenestration at 5:09 PM on October 3, 2009

a vegan dinner served by a hunter
vegan fushi aka fake sushi
Orange, olive, and fennel salad
quinoa-lentil curry pies

My hubby and a coworker recently switched to a vegan diet to alleviate IBS. I'm not vegan, and neither is my coworker's wife, but we're both trying to drastically reduce our death flesh and nest robbing intake for our own health. As for vegan ice cream, I wholeheartedly recommend everything from Turtle Mountain, plus, they generally have fewer grams of sugar/carbs per serving than regular ice creams. That's great for me since I've got the beetus yet am still a sweet addict.
posted by crataegus at 8:23 PM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Mainstream American meat choices are so boring (hamburger?

If you start talking smack about In-n-Out burger I don't know how I will go on.
posted by Justinian at 9:15 PM on October 3, 2009

You know, I doubt any of that got through in any way, but it sure was fun.

You know, none of your comment made any sense whatsoever, but it was sure fun to read.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:19 AM on October 4, 2009

The “time-consuming” aspect disappears about half the time if you use a pressure cooker. Most basic imaginable example: Finished basmati rice in four minutes.
posted by joeclark at 10:29 AM on October 7, 2009

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