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Is she a bookworm, a political girl, or a nerd?
October 12, 2009 1:41 PM   Subscribe

A new iPhone app helps you, uh "score" with women. (YT) It's made by Pepsi to promote its AMP energy drink. You choose the type of girl, and it gives you information related to that type (music suggestions, locations of bars). Then you can Tweet your conquest when you're, uh, done. Is Pepsi alienating its female customers? It's sure not going over well.
posted by desjardins (209 comments total) 15 users marked this as a favorite

 
Wait, so you're telling me there are more than 24 types of ladies?

Nothing classier, btw, than going after "rebound girl."
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 1:44 PM on October 12, 2009 [1 favorite]


Isn't it sexist to assume that only men would use this?
posted by mullingitover at 1:45 PM on October 12, 2009 [4 favorites]


Ugh, I liked Amp. I'm going to go ahead and not buy that along with not buying Rockstar.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:45 PM on October 12, 2009


See also: With All Due Respect to the Seduction Community by MeFi's own merlinmann.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 1:46 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


Pepsi: the choice pimp of a new generation
posted by netbros at 1:50 PM on October 12, 2009


Need to show the world that you're a douchebag? There's an app for that.
posted by threetoed at 1:50 PM on October 12, 2009 [51 favorites]


Does it advise you to take "Punk Rock Girl" to the Philly Pizza Company?
posted by Joe Beese at 1:50 PM on October 12, 2009 [16 favorites]


Holy shit I can't believe anyone at Pepsi approved such a thing. I don't see Amp drank very much, is it the domain of the misogynistic assholes like other energy drinks?
posted by mathowie at 1:52 PM on October 12, 2009


No PepsiBlue tag? Really?
posted by cjorgensen at 1:53 PM on October 12, 2009 [4 favorites]


Note: Apparently Apple had no problem approving this for the iTMS.
posted by rusty at 1:54 PM on October 12, 2009


Pepsi Blue balls?

I'd suspect, for any guys who took this seriously, "Out-Of-Your-League Girl" could be just about anyone.
posted by applemeat at 1:55 PM on October 12, 2009 [10 favorites]


This app, it vibrates?
posted by Antidisestablishmentarianist at 1:56 PM on October 12, 2009 [3 favorites]


For those of you who haven't been following along in this thread about women's reactions to being chatted up by men:

Hey, guys? This kind of crap is a big problem.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:57 PM on October 12, 2009 [16 favorites]


Isn't it sexist to assume that only men would use this?

Nope.

If you can show me anything about this app that suggests that it's aimed at lesbians I'll consider taking that back, but I'm pretty confident that you won't be able to.
posted by jokeefe at 1:57 PM on October 12, 2009 [4 favorites]


Chris Brown's "Forever" was the recommended video on youtube after the commercial. Where's that app? I don't necessarily want to do the research, because I am too afraid there is already one out there: "Before You Mar."
posted by psylosyren at 1:57 PM on October 12, 2009


Oh FFS:

Tired of a night out clubbing only to come home with a limp ego? Then try AMP UP BEFORE YOU SCORE, an actual iPhone app that helps you change your game and increase your chances to score with any type of woman, whether she's a "rebound girl," "aspiring actress," or a member of the ever-growing herd of "cougars."

Once a woman is defined by type, the rest is a snap. Check the app for her profile, and review the cheat-sheet providing details as to what she's into, and more importantly what sure-fire pick-up lines will cinch the deal.

posted by jokeefe at 1:59 PM on October 12, 2009


I like how these douchebags actually had enough mental resources to come up with 23 different types of "girls", but anyone "older" is just lumped into the cougar category, as if nothing else about them could possibly be interesting or even worth mentioning....they're just older broads who fuck guys.

Tired of a night out clubbing only to come home with a limp ego? Then try AMP UP BEFORE YOU SCORE, an actual iPhone app that helps you change your game and increase your chances to score*** "

*** From zero to one, on a scale of one million
posted by iconomy at 2:02 PM on October 12, 2009


*blinks rapidly for a few seconds*
*reads again*
*blinks some more*
*decides to get coffee*
posted by adipocere at 2:03 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


Isn't it sexist to assume that only men would use this?

I suppose it's sexist to assume that we would want to use it.
posted by electroboy at 2:04 PM on October 12, 2009 [20 favorites]


I'm wondering if they have pick up lines for my type (middle-aged career bohemian single mother academic socialist bisexual feminist music fan introvert graying non-smoker zaftig city-loving bookworm)? Cause I'd love to hear them. And laugh.
posted by jokeefe at 2:04 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


I suppose it's sexist to assume that we would want to use it.

Possibly more offensive than sexist?
posted by jokeefe at 2:06 PM on October 12, 2009


jokeefe, you hear about Pluto? That's messed up, right?
posted by stavrogin at 2:07 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


Ugh, someone please start a new feminist blog so we can stop using Jezebel as our go-to for outrage.
posted by schoolgirl report at 2:07 PM on October 12, 2009 [12 favorites]


I paged through a Pokemon strategy guide a couple of weeks ago. It treated its targets with far more respect than this app - or any seduction community-type guide - does.
posted by ignignokt at 2:08 PM on October 12, 2009 [22 favorites]


jokeefe, you hear about Pluto? That's messed up, right?

OMG I'M YOURS.
posted by jokeefe at 2:09 PM on October 12, 2009 [7 favorites]


I think the best possible type is the "married girl"

Because, you know, if you're going to turn all women into sexual objects, why stop at those who don't have a wedding ring? Even if they've tied the knot they'll fall easily into your crotch just following our easy steps.
posted by litleozy at 2:09 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


l33tpolicywonk: Wait, so you're telling me there are more than 24 types of ladies?

No; really there's only one: the Won't Date You type.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:09 PM on October 12, 2009


Also, this is real appropriate timing for me to be reading No Logo by Naomi Klein. Hammers the whole thing home.
posted by litleozy at 2:10 PM on October 12, 2009


Note: Apparently Apple had no problem approving this for the iTMS.

Well, I have a bigger issue with Apple being an arbiter of taste. I'll make up my own mind, thak you very much.

To be fair it is marked as 17+.

My local bookstore carries the latest Glenn Beck book, which offends me more than this app does, but I'll support both organization's right and duty to carry them.

This said, I don't see value in either.

I'd be totally fine with this app if they had also come out with one for the ladies called AMP UP before you Get Some, because crudity aside, both sexes probably could use a little help.

Of course, pulling out your iPhone isn't going to get you very far once she/he sees you fire up this app. If you really want to do this you need this app.
posted by cjorgensen at 2:10 PM on October 12, 2009 [3 favorites]


With enough AMP, you can run through all 24 types in about 5 minutes flat, and then after collapsing in a pile of sadness and failure and flop sweat, you can AMP up again for the rest of the lonely, lonely, night at your empty apartment. Really, Pepsi is just interested in expediting things for you, so you can get on with your life!
posted by FireballForever at 2:10 PM on October 12, 2009


OMG I'M YOURS.

Later that day, on twitter:

I scored a cgr omg she wz so great in teh sac thx @amp only 23 more types 2 go whoo
posted by iconomy at 2:12 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


seriously, apple, you approved this shit? good to know. I'll remember that the next time I hear some bullshit about the approval process for Google Voice, or the commodore64 emulator.
posted by shmegegge at 2:12 PM on October 12, 2009


This is a joke, yes? Someone at Pepsi is a How I Met Your Mother fan?

Ugh.
posted by zarq at 2:13 PM on October 12, 2009


schoolgirl report: Ugh, someone please start a new feminist blog so we can stop using Jezebel as our go-to for outrage.

I like Feministing, but they aren't quite as... uh... verbose as Jezebel.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:14 PM on October 12, 2009


Thank God this thing is free so I didn't have to give them any money to engage in the following act of investigative reporting. From the app:

WOMEN'S STUDIES MAJOR

Lines

"Why do people say feminists aren't hot?"

"Let's go march together."

"If I were you I'd hate men too."

"Mad at the patriarchy? Take it out on me. Please."

"I've always wished I could understand a woman's experience from the inside."

"I think I feel my paradigm shifting."

Load tweets that include the term "Feminism."

Go to the Wikipedia page on Feminism.

Go to the Wikipedia page for Ani DiFranco.


None of those are jokes from me. That's all a quote.
posted by martens at 2:15 PM on October 12, 2009 [11 favorites]


I assumed it was just a lame ad. Then I discovered the app was real. And I, uh, downloaded it.

You know what the really fucked up thing is? Some of the time, I feel like it's really trying. I mean, yes, 80% of the content is ultra-corny pickup lines and the like. But there's a large subset of what it offers that seriously seems like it thinks it could work. Links to the Star Trek page on wikipedia for "nerd girls" and the Feminism page to hit on "women's studies majors;" A live-updating list of the current NYT best-sellers to name-drop when hitting on bookworms; local galleries from your current GPS location to mention to the artsy chick. Obviously lame for real people - but I get the creepy surreal feeling that someone, somewhere on the dev team, took the ostensible use seriously.
posted by Tomorrowful at 2:18 PM on October 12, 2009


"but anyone "older" is just lumped into the cougar category"

In a 'herd' no less.

Separate all this if you will for a moment from all the gender issues, misogyny, etc. and consider it in a completely Darwinian/Technopoly sense.
On the one hand one might think that this kind of cybernetic enhancement may enhance the perception of someone's sexual suitability. On the other hand, given the complexity of human social interaction and the static and by rote nature of programming output (at least in terms of the diminishing returns on what remains 'witty' when a phrase is repeated over and over) it probably won't.
Furthermore - considered as an indicator of the attitude of the user, what you have here, at best, is a lazy, lazy, human. Too lazy or dumb to navigate the complexity and too timid to accept dynamic feedback.
Doesn't sound like someone anyone would want to have sex with.

On top of that, in many fields cybernetic enhancements - from information technology to human physical augmentation, is a positive boon. But in sexuality, while augmentation exists and apparently appeals to certain tastes, there's no real substitute for being there.
And women do already enjoy a kind of mechanical surrogate, they're called dildos.
Which is perhaps an apt description of users of this technology.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:20 PM on October 12, 2009


> Is Pepsi alienating its female customers?

Everyone knows fat chicks like me drink Diet Coke anyway.

Pepsi... Bluto?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:21 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


I thought the whole idea with cougars was that they pursue the younger guy. I mean, they wear amimal prints and show cleavage and wear expensive perfume and makeup and shoes and sit on the barstool on the end waiting to pounce, right?

Damn, has pop culture lied to me again?
posted by longsleeves at 2:22 PM on October 12, 2009


WOMEN'S STUDIES MAJOR

I always did pretty well with "Oh, you're a feminist. How cute!"
posted by elwoodwiles at 2:22 PM on October 12, 2009 [5 favorites]


"Mad at the patriarchy? Take it out on me. Please."

Okay I've got to slip this into conversation some how.
posted by litleozy at 2:23 PM on October 12, 2009


Actually, this also reminds me of the 101 ways to say ‘no’ if someone offered you marijuana that was in some comic books a while back. Really smarmy and stupid like this. And probably get your ass kicked the same way.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:24 PM on October 12, 2009


I've never heard of anyone getting their ass kicked for not smoking someone's weed.
posted by electroboy at 2:25 PM on October 12, 2009 [6 favorites]


The term "game" disturbs me for a two main reasons.

One is because, since it requires a term of its own, it is clearly different from "one's personality." This means to me that it's identical to "acting" or "lying."

The other is that I'm afraid that that's really how it works.
posted by cmoj at 2:27 PM on October 12, 2009


Racial breakdown time!

Athlete is black.
Businesswoman is asian.
Married looks to be Latina.
Military Chick has slightly darker skin than the others, I think she might be intended to be Hispanic too.

Other than that, all white.
posted by Tomorrowful at 2:27 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


I need no help scoring, I have a Camaro.
posted by pianomover at 2:28 PM on October 12, 2009 [4 favorites]


seriously, apple, you approved this shit?

They also approved the last Will Ferrell movie! What the fuck is up with Apple?
posted by cjorgensen at 2:28 PM on October 12, 2009 [1 favorite]


Punk Rock Girl would probably dig your bitchin' Camaro, pianomover.
posted by Flipping_Hades_Terwilliger at 2:34 PM on October 12, 2009 [4 favorites]


in the commercial, you select "sorority girl" beneath which it says "shouldn't be too hard".



. . . .

nice
posted by Think_Long at 2:38 PM on October 12, 2009


Obviously this was approved by female Pepsi execs as a tool to help remove these guys from the pool of males of will successfully reproduce.
posted by GuyZero at 2:42 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


oh cool, I'm a whole herd of cougars ;p

get in line boyz ;p
posted by infini at 2:42 PM on October 12, 2009


GuyZero: Unfortunately if a male chooses to use this and is successful, one article did mention the app fails to provide GPS directions to the closest place to buy condoms. The female execs fail.
posted by psylosyren at 2:46 PM on October 12, 2009


Pepsi Screw.
posted by Rhaomi at 2:50 PM on October 12, 2009


Objectify-Oriented Programming?
posted by symbioid at 2:53 PM on October 12, 2009 [3 favorites]


Metafilter: They'll fall easily into your crotch just following our easy steps.
posted by Kimberly at 2:54 PM on October 12, 2009


A live-updating list of the current NYT best-sellers to name-drop when hitting on bookworms

"Hey baby, wanna come over to my place and read some Glenn Beck?"
posted by desjardins at 2:54 PM on October 12, 2009 [12 favorites]


Possibly more offensive than sexist?

Both, really. Isn't it sexist to assume we're the kind of libido-driven, Axe bodyspray wearing date rapists that would enjoy this sort of thing? Just because someone invented this crap doesn't mean I have any interest in doing anything but heaping scorn upon it.

Sure, truck nuts exists and are probably tailored towards my demographic, but it doesn't mean I want them.
posted by electroboy at 2:55 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


the app fails to provide GPS directions to the closest place to buy condoms

Anyone who consults this app has been carrying a condom in their wallet for years.
posted by GuyZero at 2:57 PM on October 12, 2009


So which type is it that my fedora will work on? I am not having the kind of results I was led to believe it would bring me.
posted by nowonmai at 2:57 PM on October 12, 2009 [1 favorite]


This is unbelievably insane.
posted by odinsdream at 2:59 PM on October 12, 2009


I hear the App development team at Axe Body Spray just got called into an emergency meeting when this came out.
posted by gregorg at 3:00 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


electroboy - I'm confused. No one in this thread is saying that YOU, or all men, want this app. It's tailored to a certain... demographic... like any other product. It just happens to be a demographic that none of us want to interact with, ever.
posted by desjardins at 3:02 PM on October 12, 2009


My pick for the best youtube comment about this:

Right, because I want some f'ing ASSHOLE to steal MY FUCKING VEGAN GIRLFRIEND.

BULLSHIT!

GO HUMP YOU COW GIRLFRIEND, RETARD

posted by brain_drain at 3:02 PM on October 12, 2009 [5 favorites]


Greg_Ace: No; really there's only one: the Won't Date You type.

I was hoping the small text would make my use of irony apparent. Guess not.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 3:05 PM on October 12, 2009


#pepsifail and Pepsi apologizes via Twitter.
posted by fixedgear at 3:08 PM on October 12, 2009


I think it's funny.
posted by scrowdid at 3:08 PM on October 12, 2009


Tomorrowful: You know what the really fucked up thing is? Some of the time, I feel like it's really trying.

Yes. They put a lot of effort into objectifying women here. If this app only got to a small demographic of asshats, who were comfortable with that, or a lot of WTF?! publicity, it works for them.

What with the maps, Twitter searches, & other stuff, I think this is partially some developer's excuse to get familiar with a lot of the iPhone SDK.
posted by Pronoiac at 3:08 PM on October 12, 2009


Objectify-Oriented Programming?

Objectified, See!

Sorry I'm all out of bad puns for today. Try again tomorrow.
posted by SirOmega at 3:17 PM on October 12, 2009


Go to the Wikipedia page for Ani DiFranco.

I'm glad I saw Ani this weekend, before reading that tidbit. I would have been smirking whenever I saw any guy pull out an iPhone.

Also, this reminds me of Electronic Arts' Dante's Inferno contest.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:18 PM on October 12, 2009


I've got to hand it to Pepsi, here. As negative an opinion as I have of this app, it actually got me thinking about Pepsi today.

I had not heard of this "Amp" before today. Now I know what it is.

I'm sure some Pepsi marketing types would consider that a big win.
posted by gurple at 3:22 PM on October 12, 2009


Pepsi's apology on Twitter.
posted by desjardins at 3:31 PM on October 12, 2009 [1 favorite]


Hah, Lynx did this before. Known outside of the UK as Axe, Lynx promotional bits included downloadable applications include sounds that imitate a Porsche locking, make the mobile phone seem like a harmonica and a scanner for detecting body piercings.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:31 PM on October 12, 2009


“I've never heard of anyone getting their ass kicked for not smoking someone's weed.”
Exactly. These were really condescending, assholish… only one I can remember offhand was “no thanks, I’d rather not sniff a cat’s butt.” The others were much worse. Equal parts “huh?” and “WTF!?”
Tried google, but it wasn’t long lived and/or my memory sucks.
posted by Smedleyman at 3:31 PM on October 12, 2009


Well. Looks like I picked the right day to give up sugar water.
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:32 PM on October 12, 2009


If your iPhone's so great why don't you fuck it?
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:32 PM on October 12, 2009 [1 favorite]


nowonmai: So which type is it that my fedora will work on? I am not having the kind of results I was led to believe it would bring me.

Nowonmai, as a new member of the "Hat Guy" character class, your best bet is to find low-level Hat Ladies.

Be careful; a high-level Hat Lady's hat may eat yours, thus losing all the points you've put into the assorted Hat Guy skills.
posted by egypturnash at 3:33 PM on October 12, 2009 [8 favorites]


If your iPhone's so great why don't you fuck it?

You don't want to see the app for that.
posted by GuyZero at 3:34 PM on October 12, 2009 [1 favorite]


Tomorrowful: A live-updating list of the current NYT best-sellers to name-drop when hitting on bookworms

Right, because all the bookworms I know just love talking about the latest Mitch Ablom or Nicholas Sparks.
posted by shakespeherian at 3:44 PM on October 12, 2009 [1 favorite]


Mitch Ablom

Whose latest book is "24 Women You're Not Picking Up Tonight".
posted by GuyZero at 3:46 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


I hereby request the tips given for Out-of-Your-League Girl.
posted by shadow vector at 3:46 PM on October 12, 2009




A live-updating list of the current NYT best-sellers to name-drop when hitting on bookworms

"Hey baby, wanna come over to my place and read some Glenn Beck?"


--some Dan Brown?
--some Nicholas Sparks?
--some James Patterson?
--some Stephenie Meyer?
--some ( pretty much anything/anyone that makes it onto the best sellers list)

Response by the bookworm? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahahahhahaah
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:59 PM on October 12, 2009 [5 favorites]


Right, because all the bookworms I know just love talking about the latest Mitch Ablom or Nicholas Sparks.

Hey, I didn't say it was particularly good. I just found it to be a little bit closer to "actually thought-out" than I'm comfortable with for a lame one-off joke app.
posted by Tomorrowful at 3:59 PM on October 12, 2009


...perhaps this is for aliens. I've heard Mars need women.
posted by Smedleyman at 4:07 PM on October 12, 2009


Pepsi's apology on Twitter.

They apologized-if-they-offended-anyone, which isn't quite the same as actually apologizing. The Mashable article you linked to suggests they haven't pulled the app.
posted by Jaltcoh at 4:16 PM on October 12, 2009 [3 favorites]


I do slightly, almost, admire them for trying. I mean, I like it when a company tries to have fun, tries to be humorous, tries to do something that isn't your typical boring assed crap. You want to be offended? Excite commercials offend both sexes and pretty much all right thinking beings. SO few commercials are worth a shit these days.

I think this app is stupid, but when companies (or people) try to be funny...sometimes they fail.
posted by cjorgensen at 4:22 PM on October 12, 2009


They apologized-if-they-offended-anyone, which isn't quite the same as actually apologizing.

I'm fairly sure they didn't offend anyone who actually drinks Amped.
posted by GuyZero at 4:24 PM on October 12, 2009 [1 favorite]


Still a failure if the douches using this app have a condom in their wallet from their youth. That condom has been facing friction and the ravages of time, latex's sworn enemies. I guess lambskin MIGHT be safe, but then you wouldn't make it with the Treehugger.

Also, this app needs to autorecord video (or at least audio) of guys trying to pick up chicks by reading off Bestseller lists to the Bookworm, and the other crap this thing spurts out. In that case, Pepsi would have been punking the douche demographic, which is something EVERYONE can get behind. Even douches can get behind that, as douches never realize they're douches themselves.

However, I am a coffee drinker. It's the noble grandfather to the lame suburban kiddos that make up the energy drink sector. Even soda doesn't taste that great to me. I do like Fresca (which I admit is poison), but that's a Coke product. All Pepsi can sell me is chips and candy on the rare occasion I need to eat at a gas station.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:01 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


Isn't it sexist to assume we're the kind of libido-driven, Axe bodyspray wearing date rapists that would enjoy this sort of thing?

Yes.

The current gender-role stereotyping cuts both ways. And sucks for all concerned.
posted by Ouisch at 5:12 PM on October 12, 2009 [5 favorites]


Pepsi's apology on Twitter.

Wow, an 3l1t3 apology. They are totally street.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:28 PM on October 12, 2009


Isn't it sexist to assume we're the kind of libido-driven, Axe bodyspray wearing date rapists that would enjoy this sort of thing?

The patriarchy hurts men, too.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:07 PM on October 12, 2009


what
posted by Methylviolet at 6:09 PM on October 12, 2009


desjardins: "Pepsi's apology on Twitter."

I read this in Sean Hannity's keening plaintive nasal whine. Entitled, tone-deaf and not at all apologetic.
posted by boo_radley at 6:17 PM on October 12, 2009


All Pepsi can sell me is chips and candy on the rare occasion I need to eat at a gas station.

Frito-Lay, a business unit within PepsiCo, as is KFCm and one of the Taco places. They own tons of things. Not saying a boycott is impossible, but am saying might be harder than you think.

And serious question for those really really bent out of shape by this (as opposed to those like me that just thinks it stupid): What's the difference between promulgating negative stereotypes in this manner and Pepsi running ads during a TV show that does the same?
posted by cjorgensen at 6:32 PM on October 12, 2009


Thus spake Pepsi: "We apologize if it’s in bad taste..."

....what the hell do they mean "if"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:44 PM on October 12, 2009


cjorgensen: "They own tons of things."

Like the combination Pizza Hut and Taco Bell.
posted by idiopath at 7:00 PM on October 12, 2009


Frito-Lay, a business unit within PepsiCo, as is KFCm and one of the Taco places. They own tons of things. Not saying a boycott is impossible, but am saying might be harder than you think.

Not if you don't drink bottled, eat chips, or spend your money in fast food establishments. Or buy Quaker Oats, which is the one that threw me.
posted by Never teh Bride at 7:12 PM on October 12, 2009


Yeah, if anyone was offended we're sorry...that you're a humorless bitch - and that makes you #25 on our list! Extra credit!
posted by casarkos at 7:13 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


And serious question for those really really bent out of shape by this (as opposed to those like me that just thinks it stupid): What's the difference between promulgating negative stereotypes in this manner and Pepsi running ads during a TV show that does the same?

This encourages 1) viewing women as nothing but sexualized objects and 2) as one dimensional types to be checked off a list while 3) encouraging competitive sexual behavior. Instead of being a 30 to 60 second chunk of sound and visuals, though, which is forgettable and blends into the background, this is an application which will be treated as a novelty toy, passed around, and actively used to 'brag' about one's 'score,' at least among a certain demographic. It is, in a sense, somewhat self-fulfilling: each time some brohan uses it to send out a blast that he banged another category right off his list, it'll remind his braws that they should be out doing the same, and it'll normalize that behavior even more.
posted by amelioration at 7:25 PM on October 12, 2009


I'd like to know if a shallow chauvinistic a-hole is nearby with this app on his iPhone. Is there an app for that?
posted by NikitaNikita at 8:01 PM on October 12, 2009


Pepsi's apology basically reads like, "We're sorry you didn't get our very funny joke."

As for how this differs from a 30 second ad, a Pepsi ad may joke about "pickup artists" or be overly heteronormative, but it's just a blip in a sea of information. Besides, since a commercial has such a limited scope, you can usually give the benefit of the doubt that, given more time, the commercial could deliver a more politically correct method with real characters instead of stereotypes (meaning characters like the dumb jock, the dweebish nerd, or the typical hot chick, not racist stereotypes). And stereotypes are often used because it's impossible to establish a new character in under a minute.

This app was basically a manifesto to the objectification of women. They had megabytes of space to fill with text and images that they could use to make any point they wanted, as long and as clearly as they wanted, and they devoted it to a message that says that men are simple and women are best wooed by deceit that they're too simple to see through.

It's a bit like if your congressman was quoted saying something vaguely sexist, but then decided it was probably taken out of context. Then, you see him give a 20 minute speech on the floor on how women better serve society by staying at home instead of working. In one situation, you feel obligated to give him the benefit of the doubt. In the other, he makes it crystal clear how he feels.
posted by mccarty.tim at 8:17 PM on October 12, 2009 [2 favorites]


The American Family Association has already issued a fatwa boycott call on Pepsi.

I think this should be a girlcott, or better, grrlcott.

I'm still waiting for the Camille Paglia endorsement.
posted by lysdexic at 8:28 PM on October 12, 2009 [1 favorite]


Our app tried 2 show the humorous lengths guys go 2 pick up women. We apologize if it’s in bad taste & appreciate your feedback.

This is not only a false apology because it was one of those "sorry if we offended you PC Feminazis with our very hilarious joke" apologies. It is also fake because they didn't even bother to spell "to." It's TWO DAMN LETTERS.

Also, you missed "GHB-dosed girl you left unconscious in the stairwell of a parking garage." What lines would you recommend using on her? Pepsi? Apple? C'mon, guys, isn't that hilarious? The really funny part was when she had a violent seizure before the ambulance came LOL. Now that was AMPED!!!11!! AMIRITE?
posted by louche mustachio at 10:00 PM on October 12, 2009


Is anyone else waiting for Ani DiFranco to verbally flay Pepsi or is that just me?
posted by romakimmy at 10:41 PM on October 12, 2009


What's with all these energy drinks anyway? Who needs all this energy? Ohhh I had to get up at 6 o'clock this morning, I'm so tired, I need some energy. Try going to bed earlier you twat! Ohh, ohh, I was in a lecture for two hours, then a shift at McDonald's, gotta get some energy, I'm so tired. Fuck you! So busy this weekend, ooh, I'm so exhausted, have to get the train, need some energy. Join the fucking club of the rest of us!
posted by turgid dahlia at 11:05 PM on October 12, 2009 [1 favorite]


The American Family Association has already issued a fatwa boycott call on Pepsi.

From that link:
"Pepsi is a sponsor of the 2009 New York City gay pride parade. Click on the video below to see the type of activities that occur at gay pride parades. WARNING: The content is offensive..."
posted by alona at 12:14 AM on October 13, 2009


I am buying this app *right now* just to piss off the women around me. What are you guys going to do? Take away sex ive already had?
posted by HalfJack at 12:29 AM on October 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


I'm with you, romakimmy, although I fear that these days she's more likely to just mutter something cryptic about them halfway through a twelve-minute funk jam (you know, right after the saxophone solo).
posted by No-sword at 1:12 AM on October 13, 2009


Extremely sharp Pepsi Marketing Dept - 1
Outraged vocal minority - 0
Viral return on investment - Priceless
posted by Duug at 1:31 AM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


What's with all these energy drinks anyway? Who needs all this energy? Ohhh I had to get up at 6 o'clock this morning, I'm so tired, I need some energy. Try going to bed earlier you twat! Ohh, ohh, I was in a lecture for two hours, then a shift at McDonald's, gotta get some energy, I'm so tired. Fuck you! So busy this weekend, ooh, I'm so exhausted, have to get the train, need some energy. Join the fucking club of the rest of us!

People order these drinks at the bar. (Use your imagination...) That's why Amp was branded this way. That's also why Red Bull sponsors all kinds of daredevil stuff.
posted by esprit de l'escalier at 2:01 AM on October 13, 2009


No, it's not an app of which I would approve. However, what if a similar app was made for women by ... oh, Diet Pepsi, where a woman can choose the type of man, it offers information related to that type, and you can Tweet your conquest with the "boy toy" or whatever . Me thinks there would be the same reaction that there is to a kick in the crotch on a sitcom; a lot of laughter, a few pissed-off "bitter" men that nobody will listen to, and that's it.
posted by elmwood at 3:28 AM on October 13, 2009


what if a similar app was made for women...Me thinks there would be the same reaction that there is to a kick in the crotch on a sitcom; a lot of laughter, a few pissed-off "bitter" men that nobody will listen to, and that's it.

I'll say again: The patriarchy hurts men, too. This app that Pepsi has made already features a horrible stereotype of men that ought to have pissed you off. Feminists don't want men to be stereotyped and degraded any more than they want women to be. We want a world where neither this app you've imagined nor the one that exists is considered clever or funny, because both act off of stereotypes of our genders and force us all into little boxes that nobody wants to live in.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:12 AM on October 13, 2009 [6 favorites]


However, what if a similar app was made for women [etc.]

You should totally go find that app -- or make it -- and then spread the word and find out if you're right.

Ugh, someone please start a new feminist blog so we can stop using Jezebel as our go-to for outrage.

Shakesville and Feministe are also on my feeds.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 4:16 AM on October 13, 2009


I work in TV advertising clearance. I sent this video round, as we deal with clearance for Apple ads a lot. Everyone thought it was a parody.

Now I'm intrigued as to whether this is web-only - this would not get on t'telly over here.
posted by mippy at 4:21 AM on October 13, 2009


PS I have an Android
posted by mippy at 4:21 AM on October 13, 2009


oh, Diet Pepsi, where a woman can choose the type of man, it offers information related to that type, and you can Tweet your conquest with the "boy toy" or whatever .

But...why would I want to do that? I'm twenty-seven years old. Nobody is impressed that I've had sex with someone.

I knew students in my first year who drew up a 'score chart'. They also proved their cool by drinking eight pints every night, showing that they had clearly had no life prior to leaving home. Poor guys.
posted by mippy at 4:33 AM on October 13, 2009


mccarty.tim and amelioration, sorry, I didn't mean just the commercial, but the programming as well. Where is the outrage at the sponsors of "America's Next Top Model." There are tons of shows out there that aren't little out of context blips. The "Score with Tilla Tequila," (or whatever it's called.) Half the beer commercials are stereotypes (on reflection probably a lot higher).

If Pepsi sponsored an app that is essentially an ad, I'm not sure I see a difference between this and running a spot in Nip/Tuck except scale.
posted by cjorgensen at 4:51 AM on October 13, 2009


The patriarchy hurts men, too.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:07 PM on October 12 [+] [!]

what
posted by Methylviolet at 9:09 PM on October 12 [+] [!]


If that "what" is in response to "The patriarchy hurts men," you might want to read Bell Hooks's The Will to Change. It's all about this theme. She specifically talks about how the stereotype of men as purely driven by sex is harmful to men. I know the idea that there are any disadvantages of being a man isn't necessarily popular on Metafilter, but...
posted by Jaltcoh at 5:57 AM on October 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


What bugs me most about this sort of thing is the way it positions women as being some sort of leprechaun except instead of tricking her out of a pot of gold you trick her out of a pot of vagina. And many of the critiques seem to play along with that framing. The problem is that women are pictured as the gatekeepers of sexuality whose role is either allowing or not allowing sex.

Replying to this with "well anyone who would use this app obviously isn't getting any / won't get any more" plays along with the same silly idea of access to sexual intercourse as status symbol and social achievement mediated by women.
posted by idiopath at 6:02 AM on October 13, 2009 [14 favorites]


From the "tweet your conquest" link comes, what I feel is the most repugnant bit of this entire endeavor:

Designed by the Interpublic Group digital agency R/GA, the free app even includes a feature called the "brag list" where every successful high-scoring gent can broadcast his conquests in tweets and status updates via Twitter and Facebook. Called "flaunt it," users can detail their score with names, dates and salient points of interest, allowing one's buddies to live through his sexual exploits vicariously.

This is not "trying to show the humorous lengths guys go to pick up women" as Pepsi is saying, it's actively encouraging men to go out and get as many women as they can so they have something to brag about on Twitter. None of my friends are remotely in this demographic, so I don't know, maybe their target audience is already doing this, but even so, it's irresponsible for a company with influence as wide as Pepsi to normalize this behavior for a pretty large swath of the population.
posted by bookwo3107 at 6:28 AM on October 13, 2009


what if a similar app was made for women

But they didn't make one that reversed the genders, and there's a reason why they didn't bother.

There're a lot of thing I think are offensive. It's my privilege to be able to ignore them. A lot of people don't have that privilege.

Even though the claim that the patriachy "hurts men, too" has some validity, it's not a question of hurting men similarly, I don't think. It would be naive to suggest that depicting men as either "predator" or "prey" in this game has the same cultural resonance to a man as it would to a woman's experience of having her gender depicted in either of those roles.

Reducing human relationships to a predator/prey paradigm is harmful for all involved, true. With all the cultural baggage attached to it, though, I don't think you can pretend that the harm is distributed equally or experienced similarly.

Like I said, I just find this stupid and can easily ignore it. Someone identical to me in every way except for gender would probably have a more visceral reaction.
posted by ServSci at 6:37 AM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


Love the #pepsifail. I would rather see #pepsip0wned.

And somewhere an account rep, copywriter, creative director, and designer are fired.
posted by stormpooper at 6:45 AM on October 13, 2009


...perhaps this is for aliens. I've heard Mars need women.
posted by Smedleyman


Doubtful. Aliens think Earth girls are easy.
posted by COBRA! at 7:21 AM on October 13, 2009


cjorgensen: I don't like Apple's app gatekeeping either. My point was just that if they're going to act as an arbiter of what is and isn't allowed in the app store, they are taking their share of responsibility for whatever is in there, including this. I would urge them to change the policy so as to simply be a common-carrier distributor of apps, but until then, they're as responsible for this as Pepsi.
posted by rusty at 7:28 AM on October 13, 2009


There're a lot of thing I think are offensive. It's my privilege to be able to ignore them. A lot of people don't have that privilege.

Even though the claim that the patriachy "hurts men, too" has some validity, it's not a question of hurting men similarly, I don't think. It would be naive to suggest that depicting men as either "predator" or "prey" in this game has the same cultural resonance to a man as it would to a woman's experience of having her gender depicted in either of those roles.


I agree that you can ignore them.

For that matter, many women can, and do, ignore sexism against women. They certainly did it on a regular basis before the advent of the women's movement -- i.e. for most of human history.

Whether you should ignore them is a separate question.

It's interesting how predictable these discussions are on Metafilter. Someone points out how sexism isn't actually that great for men and seemingly has very strong evidence to support this point. But the evidence is inevitably met with question-begging dismissals: men have "privilege" ... anti-male sexism doesn't have "cultural resonance" ... it's "naive" to suggest otherwise. These are all code for: let's just not talk about how sexism might be bad for men. It's not nice. Or, it doesn't fit with the paradigm.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:46 AM on October 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


This reminds me of my partner's stories about this period of his life where he took the T in Boston and just rode around the various lines all day long making notes about which types of girls got on and off at each stop and which types of girls he wanted to meet and where he should go to meet them and what sort of things he should say, based on what they were wearing/reading etc.

It didn't work out for him.

And yeah, he's totally the type of guy who would drink Amped.

I worry for what this says about humanity. And also, what it says about an otherwise perfectly nice guy who has a weakness for energy drinks and a fondness for ladies - yet very few actual social skills - that while he wouldn't necessarily use this ap, he'd think it was funny.

He also has the "Urinal Test" ap on his iPhone. Proof that no matter how dumb your idea is, there's a sucker who will download it.

So yeah, as a woman/feminist, I'm totally offended. As a human in touch with pop culture at large, I'm really worried about the future of a society that drinks energy drinks and can't even think up their own stupid pick-up lines.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 8:04 AM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


For that matter, many women can, and do, ignore sexism against women. They certainly did it on a regular basis before the advent of the women's movement -- i.e. for most of human history.

Uhh, I don't think women ignored sexism as much as simply didn't have any political or social power to fight against sexism (here in Canada women weren't legally persons until 1929).

These are all code for: let's just not talk about how sexism might be bad for men. It's not nice. Or, it doesn't fit with the paradigm.

So why aren't there more men on the frontlines fighting against sexism then? Why are men not demanding paid parental leave, refusing to purchase products that use sexist advertising, demanding pay equity, telling their co-workers/friends that sexist comments and catcalling are not appropriate? If sexism is such a problem for men then why is it still around?

I actually feel I encounter little sexism in my daily life because the men and the people with power (government/police etc) in my province DO believe sexism is a problem and have actively worked against it. No, it isn't gone, but it is a far cry from what some women endure elsewhere.
posted by saucysault at 8:24 AM on October 13, 2009


This record is sponsored by Pepsi
Oh no -
I've taken three E's but I still can't dance like Bobby Gillespie
*
posted by porn in the woods at 9:49 AM on October 13, 2009


These are all code for: let's just not talk about how sexism might be bad for men. It's not nice. Or, it doesn't fit with the paradigm.

I don't think they are code for anything. I find it more suspicious when the "also hurts men" rhetoric appears to be less about recruiting allies in the fight against sexism generally, and more about shifting the focus of the discussion.

It's not that it's not "nice" to enter into a discussion of misogyny and remind people not to forget how it affects men... it's just suspicious to me if the differences go ignored. It could be that I've been exposed to too many "men's movement" people whose hyperbolic arguments I can't stomach... or made the internal connection between these issues and the silly "reverse racism" stance some people take... but I find myself wondering about the motivation for bringing up the ways us poor men suffer from sexism.

Mind you, like I said, ultimately, I don't really need to worry about it the same way a feminist activist would.
posted by ServSci at 10:07 AM on October 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


Jaltcoh -- I don't think it's a dismissal, more of a reminder of what the conversation is actually about: and right now, that conversation is about an app that degrades both men and women. But the objectification of women in this case is rather overt, whereas the assumptions it makes about men are more indirect.

I do think it's fair to say what ServSci did, which was:

I don't think you can pretend that the harm is distributed equally or experienced similarly.

Because, whenever a conversation comes up about the marginalization of a group of people (which generally also has a complementary negative effect on the group(s) privileged by that marginalization), there's always the danger of refocussing the conversation and concern onto the negative consequences for the privileged group.

And I'm not saying that's a conversation that should NEVER be had, but perhaps it needs to be had in a space particularly earmarked for that conversation, just to mitigate the risk of it overriding what we're talking about right now, right here -- which is an application that is actively objectifying women.
posted by Ouisch at 10:29 AM on October 13, 2009 [4 favorites]


Because, whenever a conversation comes up about the marginalization of a group of people (which generally also has a complementary negative effect on the group(s) privileged by that marginalization), there's always the danger of refocussing the conversation and concern onto the negative consequences for the privileged group.

And I'm not saying that's a conversation that should NEVER be had, but perhaps it needs to be had in a space particularly earmarked for that conversation, just to mitigate the risk of it overriding what we're talking about right now, right here -- which is an application that is actively objectifying women.


1,000X YES.

MetaFilter is a lot better at this than it used to be, but because of the large percentage of male users - and the fact that they tend to be more vocal than female users, even if the numbers are about the same (maybe somebody else has data, but last I knew, MeFi skews male), means that a few voices saying "Well, yeah, but MEN!" mean that the conversation shifts drastically, which I don't think is actually the intent that the users who point this out actually have.

I think that it is important to remember that these situations make faulty assumptions about men that reinforce the sexist paradigm, but at some point, you've got to say "So noted" and move on to ok, what are we going to do about it and remember that really, the larger picture is that this is a situation where women are being objectified in a particularly degrading manner. The system, such as it is, might be making assumptions of men being tasteless jackasses, but it isn't - in this case - using them as objects to be obtained.

So, yeah, we get it, men of MetaFilter. But remember, this really not about you.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:48 AM on October 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


* this isn't really about you.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:48 AM on October 13, 2009


Okay. I downloaded the app last night, to see what the fuss was about.

Women of MEFI: its a JOKE. Honest. A self-deprecating joke. It makes FUN of the USER, and at any attempt to classify women. Seriously, go download it. It won't empower the patriarchy one bit. If anything it pokes sharply at it.

BTW. Does feminist theory still use the term "patriarchy"? It seems.... quaint and naive nowadays.....
posted by HalfJack at 11:07 AM on October 13, 2009


Women of MEFI: its a JOKE. Honest. A self-deprecating joke. It makes FUN of the USER, and at any attempt to classify women.

The fact that attempts are still being made to classify women and that there is a market for this kind of joke is as much the problem as is the existence of the app itself, if not more so.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:15 AM on October 13, 2009


HalfJack: "BTW. Does feminist theory still use the term "patriarchy"? It seems.... quaint and naive nowadays....."

Most of us feminists still do think that there is such a thing as a patriarchy, yes.

Also, your attitude strikes me as being a bit "quaint and naive".

This app is not a critique of patriarchy.

Also, that stupid thing where you use ellipses in the middle of statements? Really annoying. I always read it as an attempt to create the impression of pausing in the middle of a sentence while an audience listens intently waiting for you to finish, thus attempting to create a simulacrum of profundity; thus making you look self-important.
posted by idiopath at 11:20 AM on October 13, 2009 [3 favorites]




HalfJack: If you put a "conquest" into the app, does it or does it not twitter this to your friends?
posted by odinsdream at 11:22 AM on October 13, 2009


HalfJack: If you put a "conquest" into the app, does it or does it not twitter this to your friends?

Ugh. The fact that the word "conquest" can even be used with this makes my stomach turn. You know when we had conquests? Back during the crusades.

And here we are. Still trying to win women as prizes and still trying to save Christendom from the heathens. WHEN WILL WE LEARN?
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:28 AM on October 13, 2009


It always startles me how often people are willing to give corporations and their attendant machinery the great benefit of the doubt and the assumption of good faith, and how often those same people are unwilling to extend a similar goodwill to the actual humans around them.

"That multinational conglomerate was just kidding, you guys! Seriously, the hydra-headed beast is actually super fun. We were out doing beer bongs this one time and you wouldn't believe what Legion was saying, it cracked me up! Also it's really good at voices, you should hear it do Pesci. 'Are you speaking to one of my many devil-faces, we do not see any other inhuman constructs around.' Oh man, it's like he's in the room."
posted by Errant at 12:02 PM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


idiopath

Most of us feminists still do think that there is such a thing as a patriarchy, yes.

Also, that stupid thing where you use ellipses in the middle of statements? Really annoying. I always read it as an attempt to create the impression of pausing in the middle of a sentence while an audience listens intently waiting for you to finish, thus attempting to create a simulacrum of profundity; thus making you look self-important.



Er, okay. Hey, listen; I wasn't trying to be a JERK about it. I haven't had a serious discussion RE: feminist theory in a while.
And as for my elipses, would a semi-colon be acceptable? I just realized they would provide the necessary pauses.

Two questions, though.

one: have you downloaded/seen the app? it really would help you understand the nature of the joke. The app does NOT expect you to "score" at ALL. Abject, miserable failure is the implied outcome.

two: Can you help me understand what patriarchy is by defining it? There is no snark intended in this question: i am genuinely trying to make sure I understand the term before I abndy it about.
posted by HalfJack at 12:05 PM on October 13, 2009


one: have you downloaded/seen the app? it really would help you understand the nature of the joke. The app does NOT expect you to "score" at ALL. Abject, miserable failure is the implied outcome.

Halfjack: did you miss this question -- "If you put a "conquest" into the app, does it or does it not twitter this to your friends?"

I can't download the app and investigate, because I don't have an iPhone, but you've downloaded the app. Can you answer that one data point for us, please?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:08 PM on October 13, 2009


okay: Ill go try to enter a fake "conquest" now....
posted by HalfJack at 12:11 PM on October 13, 2009


TWINS
Double the pleasure indeed. Your game will need to be twice as tight because you're dealing with two women who don't want to get with you.

Ten Things You've Always Wondered About Twins
  1. Do Twins have the same fingerprints?
  2. Can a boy and a girl be identical twins?
  3. Can twins read each other's minds?
  4. How can you tell if they were conjoined
  5. Are twins the same inside
  6. Do twins ever date the same person?
  7. How can I tell if they're twins or sisters?
  8. If I get with the same girl twice but don't know it's the same girl, does that count as twins
  9. Do twins have their own language?
  10. Are twins made with magic?
I'm not going to type out the rest they put under "Twins," but all in all, the jokes seem more aimed at the reader than at women. The application is actually kind of sophisticated. For the "Artist" it gives you local galleries. On any of the women you can read things people are tweetering about them (obviously a lot of false positives, since under Twins at lot of baseball crap comes up). No identifying info are associated with these tweets.

Each of the women have something over-the-top offensive under each like, "You are so good you play sports like a man."

I go back to my earlier question about promulgating a stereotype. Honestly, I'd like to give the majority of iPhone users credit for being smart enough to realize this shit aint going to work as intended, as in, this is not going to do what it says on the tin.

I've never played Grand Theft Auto, but from what I know of that series it's a shitload more offensive than this (though again, I'll give the majority of players credit to know that theft and beating hookers isn't a way to go through life).

If this wasn't associated with a company in any manner, if it was just a free "score" app. I don't see people having as much of a problem with it. In fact, I know there are other apps on the iTunes store that are as offensive and haven't made it here. There's many "make her strip" apps for example. And no, I am not saying because there are other bad things out there that that makes this OK, but I don't think this is the downfall of Western Civilization.

On my way into work today NPR was doing a story about a woman that was sentenced to 40 lashes for wearing jeans, so everything is relative.

This is a completely stupid action by this company. I spend a lot of my time thinking about brands, interacting with brands, and making fun of them. It's sort of a hobby and obsession. Some brands are way better at recovery when they step in it than other. See the whole Christian Dior/Sharon Stone fiasco in comparison to Pepsi. They stepped in it previously.

My prediction: The app is pulled, a public apology, and things return to normal. You may or may not see a rebranded app appear, but if it does, and it's not connected to any company other than the coders...you won't see the outrage.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:12 PM on October 13, 2009


Ugh. The fact that the word "conquest" can even be used with this makes my stomach turn. You know when we had conquests? Back during the crusades.

To be absolutely clear on this... I used the term because that's apparently what the app does. If this is incorrect, my apologies. I think this is entirely insane (see my first comment in-thread) and am only looking for HalfJack to clarify, since he's (assuming he, due to "women of MEFI") actually downloaded the app and claimed it's a joke. Even if it is a joke, if it twitters "conquests" and calls them such, it's functionally indistinguishable from not-a-joke.
posted by odinsdream at 12:12 PM on October 13, 2009


It *claims* to allow you to send out tweets or emails, but as far as I can tell, there is no mechanism for actually *doing* so. Its just a supposed list of "conquests".........
posted by HalfJack at 12:17 PM on October 13, 2009


What is DOES do is patch into live tweets about the type of subculture involved, so that you can get an understanding of their vocabulary and humor.

The more I look at this, the more i realize that this is a very sophisticated application. tweaked properly, it could be of serious use in social situations....
posted by HalfJack at 12:26 PM on October 13, 2009


halfjack: Can you help me understand what patriarchy is by defining it?
uh. dude. we're on the internet.
I know. 'sawesome.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:34 PM on October 13, 2009


I think that condemning something simply because someone *told* you that it was reprehensible is a bit reactionary, dont you? You need to SEE what is going on before you can justifiably work up a good head of outrage.

Im sure that this app will be yanked becasue of pressure of many people who have not seen it in action. Which is at best silly, and at worst, a little dangerous. You may end up alienating potential allies in your cause.
posted by HalfJack at 12:35 PM on October 13, 2009


Baby_Balrog (cool name, btw).

There are many DIFFERENT definitions of patriarchy. The problem is that we are not talking about hte most basic literal one. We are talking about the dark, shadowy forces of testosterone and how it influences our day-to-day life. I wanted to know the definition that idiopath so tersely referred to.
posted by HalfJack at 12:39 PM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


I think that condemning something simply because someone *told* you that it was reprehensible is a bit reactionary, dont you? You need to SEE what is going on before you can justifiably work up a good head of outrage.

The actual app's promotional material does a fairly good job of explaining what it does. And others who have downloaded it and reported back to us also fill in some details.

I think that's plenty to go on, myself.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:43 PM on October 13, 2009


To clarify -- I read a number of the same "tips to pick up girls" you did, but where you see it as "just a joke" and "self-deprecating", I don't. Nor do many others here.

The fact that we disagree on the nature of those tips isn't because we haven't read them, though.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:44 PM on October 13, 2009


Even if it is a joke, if it twitters "conquests" and calls them such, it's functionally indistinguishable from not-a-joke.

I like to consider myself a bit tech savvy and I can see no way to update a facebook or twitter status from within the app. Mind you, this doesn't make it any funnier.

After having looked at the damn thing, I don't see a reason to denounce it, but it's still not for me.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:45 PM on October 13, 2009


Women of MEFI: its a JOKE. Honest. A self-deprecating joke. It makes FUN of the USER, and at any attempt to classify women. Seriously, go download it. It won't empower the patriarchy one bit. If anything it pokes sharply at it.

BTW. Does feminist theory still use the term "patriarchy"? It seems.... quaint and naive nowadays.....


*looks around*

Is this Groundhog Day?

Oh, Jesus Fucking Christ, it is.

*goes back to bed; fears waking up to "I Got You, Babe" on the radio*
posted by tzikeh at 12:50 PM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


Patriarchy is a description for that set of social systems that are dominated by the attitudes, desires and perceptions of men.

Patriarchy tends to be patrilinear, women and children are often talked about as if they belong to men in a patriarchy, the thoughts and desires of men are held in a higher value than those of women in a patriarchal society.

Treating sex as if it were a prize that men trick reluctant women in order to acquire is a demeaning and hostile attitude, and reflects a value system that treats women as if they were less than human.

I know that this app is meant to be humorous, I also assert that meaning something to be a joke does not prevent it from being worthy of scorn.
posted by idiopath at 12:51 PM on October 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


EmpressCallipygos **

Ive only seen two people here (myself an cjorgensen* ) that have dowloaded the app. We are both saying that the article has somewhat misrepresented the nature of the app, and that it is much more innocent of genuine sexism, and more useful, than the author stated.

As for the marketing: I have to admit - they have done their own app a great disservice in not pointing out the humor involved.

but either way - no second hand experience is going ot be sufficient to expand/expunge something from the face of the earth. at least, it SHOULDN'T be. I dont care if ALL of your friends say a book is bad and does evil. you OWE it to the author to read it yourself before you burn it.



*If there are other downloaders on MeFi that i have missed, i apologize; i am still getting used to the format of this site.


**And Id like to add, its a little unusual talking feminist theory with someone who is named after the shapeliness of her own buttocks :) .
posted by HalfJack at 12:54 PM on October 13, 2009


I like to consider myself a bit tech savvy and I can see no way to update a facebook or twitter status from within the app.

Tap "+ Brag", enter some info, then tap "Save". Then, tap "✓ Brag List" and the info you entered should be there along with a "Send" button. Tap "Send" and you can enter your Twitter/Facebook info.

It took me way too long to figure that out because the user interface is almost as odious as the content of the app itself (almost). I'm deleting this pile of shit now before it taints the rest of my iPod.
posted by threetoed at 12:58 PM on October 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


I think that condemning something simply because someone *told* you that it was reprehensible is a bit reactionary, dont you? You need to SEE what is going on before you can justifiably work up a good head of outrage.

If somebody I trust tells me that there's something really horribly stinky in the trash, I don't need to stick my head in the trashcan to believe that it stinks.

Sure, you have to consider the source, but from what I've read on these links - I'm not necessarily "outraged," but I'm at least a little bit cheesed off. And no, I don't need to d/l the app to reinforce that opinion.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:02 PM on October 13, 2009


Thank you idiopath. I appreciate your definition. In recent years, the word has undergone such semantic dilution that it more often than not means "any thing, action, or Idea which does not make professional women happy" .
posted by HalfJack at 1:04 PM on October 13, 2009


Ten Things You've Always Wondered About Twins

Dear lord, it's like my worst parenting nightmare in list format. People keep asking my wife and I stupid crap like this about our kids.

1. Do Twins have the same fingerprints?

No. That's how we tell them apart. They get fingerprinted and photographed every morning before their first sippy cup.

2. Can a boy and a girl be identical twins?

Well, they were until the gender reassignment surgery.

3. Can twins read each other's minds?

Yeah, but that gets old after a while. It doesn't get exciting until puberty, when they'll be able to predict the future, turn invisible and levitate small objects without touching them.

If I'm sick of it now, imagine how tiresome such questions must seem to the girls who are hearing your pathetic pickup line....
posted by zarq at 1:07 PM on October 13, 2009


Thanks, Threetoed. I did not see that either......

That DOES change the nature of the app, and makes it more immature and (man i want to add an elipse here but i dont want idiopath yelling at me) odious, as threetoed said. I will be deleting it this morning.

That said, as i wipe the egg off of my face, I am still very glad I downloaded it and looked at it for myself before making a judgement. In fact, I am going to look at all the "controversial" apps, books and people that that bloggetrix hates and objects to over the next few weeks. I might find some genuine thought in the search.
posted by HalfJack at 1:11 PM on October 13, 2009


any thing, action, or Idea which does not make professional women happy

wow. "Uppity" would have been a good word to add in there. So you don't see what the big deal is, eh?
posted by ServSci at 1:11 PM on October 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


any thing, action, or Idea which does not make professional women happy

PROFESSIONAL?

And how does one get to be a PROFESSIONAL woman? I'd really like to know whether I can charge professional rates for my womanhood or if I'm still an amateur. Thnx.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:19 PM on October 13, 2009 [4 favorites]


HalfJack, what's the definition of "professional women" ?
posted by odinsdream at 1:21 PM on October 13, 2009


ServSci
No i DO see what the big deal is. I am not stupid, nor am I actually sexist (in so far as any man can be free of sexism). I just like words to MEAN SOMETHING beyond an emotional quality. I get just as pissed about the dilution/destruction of the word "socialism", believe me.
posted by HalfJack at 1:21 PM on October 13, 2009


Even if it's just a mistake of the marketing more than the app itself, it's something worth talking about.

Not all of us have devices that can download and use the app; however, the majority of us are exposed to its marketing and the messages contained therein.
posted by Ouisch at 1:22 PM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


HalfJack: Patriarchy means what it's always meant. A society dominated and run by men. If you think that the word has been diluted, it's probably because you've stopped taking it seriously - y'know, with feminism being quaint and all. The word has not lost its meaning, whether or not you personally have stopped taking it seriously.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:23 PM on October 13, 2009


wait. why are you guys getting angry at my use of the word professional?
posted by HalfJack at 1:26 PM on October 13, 2009


Ive only seen two people here (myself an cjorgensen* ) that have dowloaded the app.

...You are aware that there are other web sites out in the world, yes? And since there are other web sites, can you understand that it stands to reason that I maybe saw more examples of this site there?

I dont care if ALL of your friends say a book is bad and does evil. you OWE it to the author to read it yourself before you burn it.

That's as may be, but people aren't saying "burn it" as such. They're just saying "it sounds like it really sucks and the people who created it are idiots."

that's different.

In recent years, the word has undergone such semantic dilution that it more often than not means "any thing, action, or Idea which does not make professional women happy".

.....Oh, how cute! You're one of those guys! Awww, who's our gweat big manly-he-man? WHO is? That's wight, just wook at the big manwy-man....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:31 PM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm angry at your use of the word "professional" as it qualifies what type of woman is allowed to get upset at sexist remarks: meaning, a woman who has a certain amount of education and makes a certain amount of income is seen as getting angry "for no reason" when she is slighted by the sexist system that she lives in.

I'm angry at your use of the word "professional" as it splits women into two classes - placing women who make the choice to work at home, or women who aren't able to climb the corporate ladder and are stuck in lower paying jobs, into a lesser category.

As a woman who refuses to work in an office and has chosen the traditionally woman-dominated field of childcare, I don't consider myself any less "professional" than a man in a suit and tie, but I know that's not how the world sees me, and I know that's not what you meant.

I'm angry at your use of the word "professional" because women are already objectified enough, we don't need separate categories for your objectification.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:35 PM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


Ok, I verified this indeed can update twitter, facebook, or just an email. I didn't enter in info for the first two, but email returns:
Wish you could’ve been there to see how it all went down.

This ARTIST, when I saw her, I couldn’t wait to talk to her. When I walked over, she looked at me like, "And you are….??"

But wouldn’t you know it, we were into all the same stuff!! Or, at least I knew enough to talk about the same stuff. Ah, iPhone and Interweb.

Anyway. Done deal. Tell you more later.


[link to app and artist avatar omitted]
I'm guessing it may autofill tweets and facebook as well, but not trying that out.

I can understand the annoyance with this app, but honestly, any episode of "Married With Children" has about the same level of crude and juvinile humor with pretty much the same stereotypes thrown in.

I downloaded the app to 1. see if it's as bad as portrayed. 2. to have yet another app that's been removed from the iTunes store. I've decided to delete it though. Like I stated multiple times...it's just not for me. Seems more aimed more at the college frat boy more than anything else.

To those truly outraged, put pen to paper:

PepsiCo, Inc.
700 Anderson Hill Road
Purchase, NY 10577
posted by cjorgensen at 1:36 PM on October 13, 2009


HalfJack - I think there was probably some confusion as to whether your "professional women" meant "women who work in a profession" (which, I guess, is a grey area anyway, since any vocation, even an unpaid one, could be argued to be a 'profession') or "prominent women who earn their living by representing feminism."

(I think. Not sure. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
posted by Ouisch at 1:40 PM on October 13, 2009


I'm not calling anyone stupid or sexist, Halfjack. I thought your request for a definition might be genuine concern, but the alternate one you offered was pretty offensive and had that weird "professional" qualifier in it... like you had the feeling that women with jobs just use the idea of "patriarchy" as a catch-all for every obstacle they face. Which would be a pretty tone-deaf dismissal of some pretty serious concerns people have about social inequality (like maybe some of those women you are hearing might have a valid problem...)

Not sure that's what you meant, but it sounded like you had a real problem with those "professional women" you mentioned ("Business Woman" on the list of 24).
posted by ServSci at 1:42 PM on October 13, 2009


but honestly, any episode of "Married With Children" has about the same level of crude and juvinile humor with pretty much the same stereotypes thrown in.

I don't see how this fact is supposed to mitigate the problem we're talking about.

Which, if you look at the bigger picture, is the objectification of women (and the corresponding insulting of men) in mainstream culture.
posted by Ouisch at 1:44 PM on October 13, 2009


Are you guys aware that A. I am in essential agreement with you guys, after what 3Toed said? and B. you guys are getting very very ANGRY with someone who AGREES with you because I added a qualifier to "women" that indicated that not all women are as educated about the ills of society as others?

I am sorry I offended. The word "patriarchy" has, sadly, been overused and used in such seemingly inappropriate circumstances that it has, in recent years lost almost all meaning besides the negative emotional value.

I used the word professional simply because not all people, women OR men, are well-educated enough to understand what is meant by the word "patriarchy", unless it REALLY DOES mean "anyhting that pisses a woman off".

tl;dr - chill, please. I'm not really worth all that anger.
posted by HalfJack at 1:48 PM on October 13, 2009


I also don't think having a critical discussion of a product that some find problematic on a social level = OUTRAGED BOOK BURNING!!!!1!

If anything, making hyperbolic comparisons like that serves to discourage and attempt to silence or trivialize our expression of our opinions on this issue.
posted by Ouisch at 1:49 PM on October 13, 2009


Are you guys aware that A. I am in essential agreement with you guys, after what 3Toed said?

You've been doing a very good impression of being someone who disagrees with us. You may want to consider why that may be.

I used the word professional simply because not all people, women OR men, are well-educated enough to understand what is meant by the word "patriarchy", unless it REALLY DOES mean "anyhting that pisses a woman off".

.....And there's another example.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:50 PM on October 13, 2009


I'm not really worth all that anger.

Once again, because I think it bears repeating -- this is not necessarily just about you. Sometimes discussions like this get pretty heated because one person has, either purposely or inadvertently, pushed some buttons that get pushed so, so often, and to such detrimental effect, that it can trigger a response that may appear outsized in the immediate circumstance, but which makes a lot more sense if viewed in the larger context.
posted by Ouisch at 1:52 PM on October 13, 2009


Yeah, I'm just not sure that the sad decline of the meaning of the word "patriarchy" has actually happened.
posted by ServSci at 1:54 PM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


EmpressCallipygos

I apologize for making what seemed to be a quip about your name, btw. It just felt like i was being sexist by using your name, while at the same time, trying to argue about the serious and genuine problems sexism causes. I should have phrased it better, and I am glad you have returned to the discussion. :)
posted by HalfJack at 2:07 PM on October 13, 2009


Thank you. Although, for the record the quip about my name didn't bug me, and I never actually left the discussion anyway...

I am somewhat more taken aback by what is coming across as your having a rather garbled and arcane definition of what "sexism" actually is, but we're all discussing that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:10 PM on October 13, 2009


EmpressCallipygos

Also - you may have missed the post i made in your absence:

That DOES change the nature of the app, and makes it more immature and (man i want to add an elipse here but i dont want idiopath yelling at me) odious, as threetoed said. I will be deleting it this morning.

posted by HalfJack at 2:11 PM on October 13, 2009


I did see that, because -- um, I never left, so there wasn't an abscence for me to have missed it in.

I'm honestly not sure where on earth you're getting the idea I left in a huff or anything.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:16 PM on October 13, 2009


Ouisch: I don't see how this fact is supposed to mitigate the problem we're talking about.

I didn't say it mitigated it at all. I was just trying to further define it for those trying to weigh the social injustice here. It was just another datapoint. I'm making no value judgements on the app or the show. Just comparing the two as being pretty much on the same level.

On a scale of 1-10 this is about a 3.4 as far as being offensive. That there are more bothersome things out there doesn't mean this can't still be offensive. At the end of the day I think there are bigger battles to fight and greater harms to lose sleep over.
posted by cjorgensen at 2:21 PM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


The word "patriarchy" has, sadly, been overused and used in such seemingly inappropriate circumstances that it has, in recent years lost almost all meaning besides the negative emotional value.

It hasn't, actually. If you're tired of the word and feel aggrieved by it, that's a point of view, but the term hasn't lost its currency just because you've heard it before or because someone may have once used the term inappropriately around you.

While I'm piling on, your conflation of "professional" and "educated" is ridiculous, as is your stance that "uneducated" men and women are incapable of using the term "appropriately". These statements say much more about your actual viewpoint than any claims to "essential agreement". It's impossible for you to dismiss the term "patriarchy" as you have and still agree with me about this in any meaningful way, whether or not you have now decided that this app isn't worth your time.
posted by Errant at 2:35 PM on October 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


On a scale of 1-10 this is about a 3.4 as far as being offensive. That there are more bothersome things out there doesn't mean this can't still be offensive. At the end of the day I think there are bigger battles to fight and greater harms to lose sleep over.

I might agree that it's not the worst offense, but I notice that this comment comes up a lot in discussions about offensive things, and I have two problems with it:

1. The fact that people are criticizing the offense on a web site doesn't mean that they're losing sleep over it or are in any way put out by it.

2. Battles that are not the biggest battles are still worth fighting. Besides, chances are most people aren't fighting that many battles. If something inspires them to fight via letter writing or phone calls or what have you, they should. They might not be inspired by fighting global warming or health insurance companies or slave labor. Having someone fight something is better than having them not fight at all.

I think an app that legitimizes viewing women as finite state machines (and rather simple ones at that) is bad, and I welcome people belittling it and trying to get it ripped down, even if it is not on the level of stopping a gargantuo-meteor from striking the earth.
posted by ignignokt at 2:49 PM on October 13, 2009 [4 favorites]


At the end of the day I think there are bigger battles to fight and greater harms to lose sleep over.

That's all well and good for you, but obviously the people who are concerned about this think there is a reason for that concern. It'd be pretty shitty to dismiss that concern out-of-hand, especially if you're not one of the people who feels offended by this.

Cause, if you're not, then there are lots of other things you can feel free to discuss, without coming here and derailing this discussion.
posted by Ouisch at 2:50 PM on October 13, 2009


Some more links of interest:

"What’s wrong with saying that things happen to men, too?"

And, to address the "bigger battles" and "greater harms" argument:

"Feminism seeks to address all manner of issues, big and small."
The idea that feminism should be kept under glass, broken only in case of a "real" and "serious" emergency, is predicated on the erroneous assumption that "the little things" happen in a void, as do, presumably, the "real" and "serious" things, when, in reality, they are interwoven strands of the same rope. And as soon as one begins to judge the worthiness of feminists' attention on a sliding scale, even generally-regarded "serious issues" like equal pay are dwarfed by global concerns like sex trafficking or government-sanctioned use of rape as a tool of war. It doesn't have to be one or the other—feminists can multi-task.

And, in a very real way, ignoring "the little things" in favor of "the big stuff" makes the big stuff that much harder to eradicate, because it is the pervasive, ubiquitous, inescapable little things that create the foundation of a sexist culture on which the big stuff is dependent for its survival. It's the little things, the constant drumbeat of inequality and objectification, that inure us to increasingly horrible acts and attitudes toward women.

Irrespective of intent, the recommendation to "ignore the little stuff," so often intertwined with accusations of looking for things about which to get offended, is not just ill-advised, but counter to the ultimate goal of full equality. It's like a knife in my gut when I see feminists accusing other feminists of "hurting the cause" by focusing on "the little stuff," because that's It—that's the stuff, that's the fertile soil in which everything else takes root and from whence everything else springs, that's the way that the fundamental idea that women are not equal to men is conveyed over and over and over again.
posted by Ouisch at 2:57 PM on October 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


I seriously doubt that "The Patriarchy is anything that pisses women off" was actually on the list of things to say to Women's Studies Girl, which may explain some of the trouble, here. Obviously, you need to trust the system.

-.-
posted by ServSci at 3:26 PM on October 13, 2009


you guys are getting very very ANGRY with someone who AGREES with you because I added a qualifier to "women" that indicated that not all women are as educated about the ills of society as others?

No, you do not agree with me because I don't think that a woman needs to be "educated" to feel the ills of society. In fact, less educated women are at a disadvantage and know more about these aforementioned ills from experience rather than fancy-pants book learning. So, no, you and I do not agree because I do not believe that any woman needs a qualifier to display whether or not she has an understanding of how society works.

The word "patriarchy" has, sadly, been overused and used in such seemingly inappropriate circumstances that it has, in recent years lost almost all meaning besides the negative emotional value.

Perhaps what is happening instead is that you've tuned out the real meaning of the word and inserted your own negative emotional value. In any case, I totally disagree with this point as I haven't heard the word overused and believe that since the societal hierarchy still favors men, the word "patriarchy" is still the best descriptor for it.

I used the word professional simply because not all people, women OR men, are well-educated enough to understand what is meant by the word "patriarchy", unless it REALLY DOES mean "anyhting that pisses a woman off".

I disagree. Perhaps you need a dictionary to understand the word "patriarchy" - but if you say simply "society run by men" - EVERYBODY understands EXACTLY what that means. Adding a qualifier to say "Oh, only certain women understand what this term is, so only those women are qualified to talk about feminism" is ridiculously insulting.

tl;dr - chill, please. I'm not really worth all that anger.

No, thanks. I won't chill. I won't be told to chill by somebody who has a total misunderstanding of the system, and yet claims to "agree" with me. You are worth that anger because I want you to understand where I am coming from and why I think that you're blocking out actual women's experiences and instead lumping it into a pile of things "women get mad about." Do you understand why we're angry about this? It's because we're objectified, demeaned, and then told to chill.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:33 PM on October 13, 2009 [7 favorites]


It just felt like i was being sexist by using your name,

I say this with all sincerity: you have no idea what sexism is. It is not sexism to use someone's NAME that they have applied to themselves. It is, in fact, respectful to speak to someone and address them by the name they have chosen to use.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:35 PM on October 13, 2009


HalfJack: In recent years, the word has undergone such semantic dilution that it more often than not means "any thing, action, or Idea which does not make professional women happy" .

How can you possibly say something like this and yet believe that you are 'in essential agreement' with the women and men who you are talking to?
posted by shakespeherian at 3:46 PM on October 13, 2009


It is not sexism to use someone's NAME that they have applied to themselves. It is, in fact, respectful to speak to someone and address them by the name they have chosen to use.

Forget it, grapefruit -- for some reason the guy literally couldn't see I even existed for a couple hours.

I think we're dealing with someone whose perception of reality may just overall not match what the rest of us are experiencing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:29 PM on October 13, 2009


Yeah, Empress, I'm guessing that this is true. I wonder what color the sky is in his world. Perhaps it's a nice paisley.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:31 PM on October 13, 2009


I said, "At the end of the day I think there are bigger battles to fight and greater harms to lose sleep over," and got this:
Ouisch: That's all well and good for you, but obviously the people who are concerned about this think there is a reason for that concern. It'd be pretty shitty to dismiss that concern out-of-hand, especially if you're not one of the people who feels offended by this.

Cause, if you're not, then there are lots of other things you can feel free to discuss, without coming here and derailing this discussion.
Wow, I challenge you to point to one comment I've made in this entire thread that is even close to a derail. All my comments have been about the app, questions on how it works, observations of the actual app, and how I think it's stupid, not for me, and comparing it to other dumb shit, but you know, if you see this as a derail that's cool. I think I even mentioned that it's offensive at least once.

When you use arguments like this, saying that my on topic contributions are a derail, it makes me unlikely to read anything further from you.

I've taken great pains to point out that because there are greater evils in the world, this doesn't mean we should ignore the minor slights, just that my day consisted of shit that mattered a fuckload more than some company's failed attempt at edgy branding.

But hey, you know, keep discounting me, since I am only a guy, and we can't care at all about how women are represented.

Sorry for the derail.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:19 PM on October 13, 2009


But hey, you know, keep discounting me, since I am only a guy, and we can't care at all about how women are represented.

OUISCH wasn't the one who said that what you had to say had to do with you being a guy. YOU did.

But actually, it's just some dumb shit someone said about you on the Internet, why worry about it anyway?....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:39 PM on October 13, 2009


Yeah, you're right, I was the one that pointed out I was a guy, a male, a man with a cock, so I have a penis, discount the rest.

Disregard that I am a dude.

This strengthens my point.

Penis or vagina, not sure what statement I've made is off.

And last time I worries what someone on the internet thought of me I was 12.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:02 PM on October 13, 2009


The derail is saying that there are more important things to talk about (which is all anyone was doing when you started with the talk about "bigger battles" and "greater harms"). If that isn't the very epitome of derailing I don't know what is.
posted by Danila at 7:31 PM on October 13, 2009


The derail is saying that there are more important things to talk about (which is all anyone was doing when you started with the talk about "bigger battles" and "greater harms"). If that isn't the very epitome of derailing I don't know what is.

Yes, that is what I was referring to.
posted by Ouisch at 8:23 PM on October 13, 2009


I'm not sure how exactly this devolved into an internet shouting match, but I wasn't actually accusing you of derailing, cjorgensen.

I was just pointing out how the argument that we focus on "bigger harms" etc. could be considered derailing.

But I really wasn't accusing you of doing that. It was part of the discussion, as far as I was concerned.
posted by Ouisch at 8:25 PM on October 13, 2009


Penis or vagina, not sure what statement I've made is off.

That was kind of MY point. You were being judged on your words alone. YOU were the one that went all "oh, you just hate what I say because I'm a man, I bet." And no, the fact that you were a man wasn't why people disagreed with you -- they disagreed with you because....they disagreed with you.

And last time I worries what someone on the internet thought of me I was 12.

Yeah, you're doing a great job of making sure we know JUST how unconcerned you are about all of this.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:27 PM on October 13, 2009


Cause, if you're not, then there are lots of other things you can feel free to discuss, without coming here and derailing this discussion.

I just realized that this came off sounding rather fighty. I'd like to assure you, cjorgensen, that that's purely poor wording on my part, and nothing personal against you.
posted by Ouisch at 8:30 PM on October 13, 2009


my day consisted of shit that mattered a fuckload more than some company's failed attempt at edgy branding.

I have to say, however, that I find this statement problematic. Obviously, to the people in this thread who find this app (and other things that might be considered similar, whether they are advertisements or TV shows, or whatever) quite offensive on a visceral level, this is far more than just "some company's failed attempt at edgy branding."

Just because your personal hot-buttons haven't been pushed by this thing, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an important impact on someone, somewhere. And it seems that several of those "someones" are in evidence right here in this thread.

It might be a good idea to listen to what they have to say, rather than talking on and on about how this is stupid, yeah, but not really all that offensive as x, y or z.
posted by Ouisch at 8:41 PM on October 13, 2009


brief interjection to mention that an alternate/improved (?) word for patriarchy is kyriarchy, preferred by some because it's all intersection-y, about class and race and gender and body status. I don't wish to suggest that patriarchy is inappropriate for this discussion -- I think it's as apt as ever it was -- but since the relevance of the word was raised I thought I'd offer a window into where some of the thought on this has gone recently.

*fades out*

posted by ArmyOfKittens at 11:59 PM on October 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


I am one of these "douche bags" that you've been slating, I don't really drink AMP, but I do drink a fair share of Red Bull, and the whole point of this app isn't that you're actually going to use it to "score", but as a humorous poke at the length people (like me) go to convince girls they're the guy they've been holding out for.

And I'm (almost) sorry to report this, but it bloody works. Kudos to Pepsi for poking fun at it.
posted by dearsina at 12:55 AM on October 14, 2009


Patriarchy is a description for that set of social systems that are dominated by the attitudes, desires and perceptions of men.

Yes. With the emphasis on the phrase social systems. Or, as Allan Johnson (one of my favorite feminist writers) puts it:

"To get clear, we first have to get past the defensive reaction of many people - men in particular - to the word "patriarchy" itself, which they routinely interpret as a code word for "men." [P]atriarchy is not simply another way of saying "men." Patriarchy is a kind of society, and a society is more than a collection of people As such, "patriarchy" doesn't refer to me or any other man or collection of men, but to a kind of society in which men and women participate.

"What is patriarchy? A society is patriarchal to the degree that it is male-dominated, male-identified, and male-centered. It also involves as one of its key aspects the oppression of women."

Treating sex as if it were a prize that men trick reluctant women in order to acquire is a demeaning and hostile attitude, and reflects a value system that treats women as if they were less than human.

Indeed. Johnson has something relevant to say about that too:

"Patriarchy encourages men to leave behind their sense of themselves as embodied sexual beings. Masculine heterosexuality becomes something outside men's own bodies, to seek, "get," and control as a commodity or prize buried in and controlled by women. Men feel encouraged to see sexuality as something women have and men don't, and therefore as a source of women's power over men and an occasion for male resentment, rage, and aggression. This can reduce men's sexual lives to a choice between chronic sexual deprivation and finding ways to buy, earn, win, seduce, or seize it. It can set men up to feel responsible for women's sexual pleasure - always under pressure to perform to women's satisfaction - as a way to demonstrate the artistry of masculine control. It's also a way to earn access to the sexuality women supposedly possess and give in carefully measured portions to deserving men. All of this may be the closest many men can get to a genuine sense of connection to their own sense of being alive as sexual beings."*

Which, when you think about it, is really fucking sad for all involved. And that's putting it mildly.

* Quotes from The Gender Knot: Unraveling our Patriarchal Legacy
posted by velvet winter at 1:24 AM on October 14, 2009 [20 favorites]


I am one of these "douche bags" that you've been slating, I don't really drink AMP, but I do drink a fair share of Red Bull, and the whole point of this app isn't that you're actually going to use it to "score", but as a humorous poke at the length people (like me) go to convince girls they're the guy they've been holding out for.

I don't think you're a douche bag. If you'll recall from my upthread comment earlier, my partner is also a Red Bull drinking guy who has gone to incredible length to try and "score" with women.

I think that the culture that encourages this kind of thing is incredibly fucked up. Yeah, I wish guys wouldn't try to "pick up chicks," but the real problem isn't that men are attracted to and seek the company of women, the real problem is that they're encouraged to do so in ways that are objectifying and demeaning to the very women that they are presumably trying to engage.

So, in my POV, *PEPSI CO* is the douche bag. Yeah, I wouldn't be at all happy if I found this app on my boyfriend's iPhone, and I would give him an earful about his objectification of women, but I would also recognize that he's a participant in a larger culture of objectification - and that they're the ones who are keeping it going by creating apps like this.

So, no, I don't fault energy drinking guys for wanting to date women. I fault the creators of those energy drinks for making an elaborate joke wherein women are objectified for their amusement. No matter who the "punchline" of the joke is, the point is that it's really not funny.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:51 AM on October 14, 2009


I apologize for the massive derail that occurred with my use of the word patriarchy. I thought MetaFilter had passed Feminism 101, but obviously a remedial course was in order. I also thought context clues would help: "the patriarchy hurts men, too" seems to suggest that it might not mean "any thing, action, or Idea which does not make professional women happy."
posted by hydropsyche at 4:42 AM on October 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


an alternate/improved (?) word for patriarchy is kyriarchy

That's cool. I've never heard this word before. Nice.
posted by ServSci at 6:05 AM on October 14, 2009


"There are bigger things to worry about."
"It's just harmless fun."
"But what about us?"

I'm sure lots of folks thought that the blackface act was unimportant and harmless when it was first performed, but they were wrong.

And the opposite of this iPod application is probably this t-shirt.
posted by anonymuk at 8:08 AM on October 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


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