Always Listen To Structural Engineers
October 26, 2009 2:50 PM Subscribe
It will be the site of 12 medal finals this February, but Richmond's Olympic Oval has already won gold in one event: on October 9th, it was awarded top honors for a sports or leisure structure from the Institution of Structural Engineers, beating out Wimbledon, the Copenhagen Zoo's Elephant House, and another Olympic venue, Beijing's Birds Nest. The Richmond Oval won largely on the strength of sustainability, including a 2 hectare roof built out of salvaged lumber from the Mountain Pine Beetle infestation.
Also nominated for the David Alsop Sustainability Award, the building lost to South Africa's Mapungubwe National Park Interpretive Centre but was given a special second place commendation.
Also nominated for the David Alsop Sustainability Award, the building lost to South Africa's Mapungubwe National Park Interpretive Centre but was given a special second place commendation.
What's sustainable about Mountain Pine Beetle infestations?
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:57 PM on October 26, 2009
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:57 PM on October 26, 2009
What's sustainable about Mountain Pine Beetle infestations?
They're like books: the gift that keeps on giving. But instead of giving you knowledge and stories, you get a lot of dead trees, and wood with beetle holes. I wonder what kind of structural stability is lost from beetle infestation.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:29 PM on October 26, 2009
They're like books: the gift that keeps on giving. But instead of giving you knowledge and stories, you get a lot of dead trees, and wood with beetle holes. I wonder what kind of structural stability is lost from beetle infestation.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:29 PM on October 26, 2009
Filthy light thief, the beetles only eat the inner bark. The wood is structurally unmolested, but it does take on blue streaking as a result of the fungal infection spread by the beetles that actually kills the tree.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 3:32 PM on October 26, 2009
posted by [expletive deleted] at 3:32 PM on October 26, 2009
The wood is "sustainable" only in that it's already dead, leaving it the forest only encourages firestorms. Using it saves growing trees to harvest later when lumber prices are high. (<-Semi tongue in cheek.)
And the only spectacular thing about the oval, as the architecture is pretty pedestrian and dreary in my opinion is the sheer size of it. The track is 500 meters in length, completely under an unencumbered span.
posted by Keith Talent at 3:35 PM on October 26, 2009
And the only spectacular thing about the oval, as the architecture is pretty pedestrian and dreary in my opinion is the sheer size of it. The track is 500 meters in length, completely under an unencumbered span.
posted by Keith Talent at 3:35 PM on October 26, 2009
And the tree starts to rot right away - the issue is that entire forests will rot away before the lumber companies get at 'em. In the short term the pine beetle is actually a huge boon to the forestry industry as it's essentially a free pass to harvest wood without a quota. The upside is that this is actually a good thing as it's supposed to help control the infestation. At any rate it's using wood that was already dead as opposed to cutting down a live tree.
posted by GuyZero at 3:35 PM on October 26, 2009
posted by GuyZero at 3:35 PM on October 26, 2009
And the fungus doesn't weaken the wood?
Seriously, I understand that what they're talking about is using lumber that would otherwise have been wasted. But this amounts to a windfall, in the original meaning of "fruit on the ground as a result of an unexpected storm". It doesn't have anything at all to do with "sustainability".
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 3:37 PM on October 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
Seriously, I understand that what they're talking about is using lumber that would otherwise have been wasted. But this amounts to a windfall, in the original meaning of "fruit on the ground as a result of an unexpected storm". It doesn't have anything at all to do with "sustainability".
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 3:37 PM on October 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
Looks like a nice arena, however sustainable™ it might be.
posted by acro at 3:39 PM on October 26, 2009
posted by acro at 3:39 PM on October 26, 2009
Excuse me Chocolate Pickle, but here in Vancouver will will not tolerate your use of language, logic and reasoning to rain on our little self congratulatory back slap of mutual admiration and affirmation. We're the greenest people on earth, my neighbours keep saying it so we must be. It's sustainable if we say it's sustainable. Got that?
posted by Keith Talent at 3:42 PM on October 26, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Keith Talent at 3:42 PM on October 26, 2009 [3 favorites]
It doesn't have anything at all to do with "sustainability".
To an industry that makes money by cutting down trees this seems pretty sustainable as it keeps them all employed. In Canadian politics, a forest without people cutting down trees is unsustainable as it doesn't generate any votes.
Also, all those trees are sequestered carbon! Now new trees grow and sequester more carbon! it almost offsets the oil sands!
But, snark aside, I love these projects as having a facility like this is a gift to young athletes who now have some serious space to train in. I hope that BC & the Federal governments keep the flame burning by continuing to support developing athletes.
posted by GuyZero at 3:43 PM on October 26, 2009
To an industry that makes money by cutting down trees this seems pretty sustainable as it keeps them all employed. In Canadian politics, a forest without people cutting down trees is unsustainable as it doesn't generate any votes.
Also, all those trees are sequestered carbon! Now new trees grow and sequester more carbon! it almost offsets the oil sands!
But, snark aside, I love these projects as having a facility like this is a gift to young athletes who now have some serious space to train in. I hope that BC & the Federal governments keep the flame burning by continuing to support developing athletes.
posted by GuyZero at 3:43 PM on October 26, 2009
Its engineering and the materials might be worthy and laudable, but from what I can see of it this is a pretty standard, predictable piece of modern architecture.
In architectural terms, the Bird's Nest is a masterpiece - the greatest building of the 21st century so far - and a damn impresive feat of engineering too.
posted by Flashman at 3:44 PM on October 26, 2009
In architectural terms, the Bird's Nest is a masterpiece - the greatest building of the 21st century so far - and a damn impresive feat of engineering too.
posted by Flashman at 3:44 PM on October 26, 2009
I wonder what kind of structural stability is lost from beetle infestation.
Well, in the case of the oval, the actual structural parts (i.e. the beams) are made out of laminated fir, not pine (with some steel as well). The pine is just the covering.
The massive "salvage" logging operation that has been taking place across BC is hardly a great example of sustainability. The way this roof is breathlessly promoted is more than a little deceptive. We have been madly cutting down beetle-infested trees (and trees that might become infested and trees that are near beetle infested trees and so on) for years and selling them to anyone who will buy them. The trees are salvaged in the sense that they are being harvested before they lose their economic value, but we aren't paying a lot of attention to environmental or social values.
And we certainly don't want to talk about the monoculture forest management practices that contributed to the infestation.
posted by ssg at 3:45 PM on October 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
Well, in the case of the oval, the actual structural parts (i.e. the beams) are made out of laminated fir, not pine (with some steel as well). The pine is just the covering.
The massive "salvage" logging operation that has been taking place across BC is hardly a great example of sustainability. The way this roof is breathlessly promoted is more than a little deceptive. We have been madly cutting down beetle-infested trees (and trees that might become infested and trees that are near beetle infested trees and so on) for years and selling them to anyone who will buy them. The trees are salvaged in the sense that they are being harvested before they lose their economic value, but we aren't paying a lot of attention to environmental or social values.
And we certainly don't want to talk about the monoculture forest management practices that contributed to the infestation.
posted by ssg at 3:45 PM on October 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
To be fair it's an award for engineering, not architecture, a distinction the local media has failed to make. And Guy Zero, it's slated to have the ice ripped out fifteen minutes after the games end and be turned into the worlds most expensive community centre.
posted by Keith Talent at 3:47 PM on October 26, 2009
posted by Keith Talent at 3:47 PM on October 26, 2009
And Guy Zero, it's slated to have the ice ripped out fifteen minutes after the games end and be turned into the worlds most expensive community centre.
Really? What a drag. I guess it's back to Calgary for the next batch of Olympic hopefuls.
posted by GuyZero at 3:49 PM on October 26, 2009
Really? What a drag. I guess it's back to Calgary for the next batch of Olympic hopefuls.
posted by GuyZero at 3:49 PM on October 26, 2009
What's sustainable about Mountain Pine Beetle infestations?
The Oval has a LEED silver certification.
Besides that, wood is considered to be a renewable resource, and is therefore sustainable. You also have the added advantage of carbon sequestration. Using wood as a biofuel to generate electricity is considered to be a "net neutral" source of carbon emissions.
It's an interesting academic exercise to compare the net C02 emissions needed to construct a ferro-concrete building (and producing concrete is C02-intensive, so think about *that* the next time someone calls nuclear power a low source of greenhouse-gas emissions) with the C02 emissions produced when constructing a wood building.
posted by KokuRyu at 3:55 PM on October 26, 2009
The Oval has a LEED silver certification.
Besides that, wood is considered to be a renewable resource, and is therefore sustainable. You also have the added advantage of carbon sequestration. Using wood as a biofuel to generate electricity is considered to be a "net neutral" source of carbon emissions.
It's an interesting academic exercise to compare the net C02 emissions needed to construct a ferro-concrete building (and producing concrete is C02-intensive, so think about *that* the next time someone calls nuclear power a low source of greenhouse-gas emissions) with the C02 emissions produced when constructing a wood building.
posted by KokuRyu at 3:55 PM on October 26, 2009
Probably not winning any awards from the Institution of Structural Engineers: Stade Olympique.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:59 PM on October 26, 2009
posted by Sys Rq at 3:59 PM on October 26, 2009
Stade Olympique
I wager it's provided more employment for structural engineers by itself than the entire 2010 Olympics.
posted by GuyZero at 4:03 PM on October 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
I wager it's provided more employment for structural engineers by itself than the entire 2010 Olympics.
posted by GuyZero at 4:03 PM on October 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
Agreed that it is not breathtaking and perhaps the roof's environmental credentials are debatable -- but I was impressed with the rainwater capture and reuse and the waste heat reuse. Those aspects certainly seem to highlight sustainability.
posted by bearwife at 4:08 PM on October 26, 2009
posted by bearwife at 4:08 PM on October 26, 2009
Forgetting the unselfconscious use of the term "sustainability" ...
(either it IS sustainable, ie we can keep building richmond ovals for ever if we wanted, or it isn't. Hint: it isn't)
... I'll give props to the architects' use of Glulam. Yay Glulam! As strong as concrete, much prettier than steel, and less waste than either.
posted by Popular Ethics at 4:22 PM on October 26, 2009
(either it IS sustainable, ie we can keep building richmond ovals for ever if we wanted, or it isn't. Hint: it isn't)
... I'll give props to the architects' use of Glulam. Yay Glulam! As strong as concrete, much prettier than steel, and less waste than either.
posted by Popular Ethics at 4:22 PM on October 26, 2009
Semi tongue in cheek
Please update your nomenclature. You need to use the VEGIBURGER or SOY PROTIEN tag for partial sarcasm, following the adoption of HAMBURGER as the tag for sarcasm.
But this amounts to a windfall, in the original meaning of "fruit on the ground as a result of an unexpected storm". It doesn't have anything at all to do with "sustainability".
Except very few people would buy the bruised fruit that dropped off of trees. Decreased demand for live trees is a good thing, and given the sheer amount of infested trees, this is no small thing. But ssg posted more info that makes this less inspirational.
We're the greenest people on earth, my neighbours keep saying it so we must be. It's sustainable if we say it's sustainable. Got that?
Vancouver's mayor is pushing for more green strategies, especially around the 2010 games.
wood is considered to be a renewable resource
Some more than others.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:26 PM on October 26, 2009
Please update your nomenclature. You need to use the VEGIBURGER or SOY PROTIEN tag for partial sarcasm, following the adoption of HAMBURGER as the tag for sarcasm.
But this amounts to a windfall, in the original meaning of "fruit on the ground as a result of an unexpected storm". It doesn't have anything at all to do with "sustainability".
Except very few people would buy the bruised fruit that dropped off of trees. Decreased demand for live trees is a good thing, and given the sheer amount of infested trees, this is no small thing. But ssg posted more info that makes this less inspirational.
We're the greenest people on earth, my neighbours keep saying it so we must be. It's sustainable if we say it's sustainable. Got that?
Vancouver's mayor is pushing for more green strategies, especially around the 2010 games.
wood is considered to be a renewable resource
Some more than others.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:26 PM on October 26, 2009
I was impressed with the rainwater capture
posted by bearwife
Please, Vancouver is in the middle of a temperate rainforest, pretending that the water capture is laudable in any way outside of masturbatory green-washing is hilarious. Aside from the fact that one of the biggest rivers in North America flows by it's doorstep, literally, the landscape is all indigenous plants that need no water other than what already falls.
If the water capture is proof of design that will be implemented in other less wet areas, then fine, but to pretend that the capture at the oval itself helps the environment in anyway what so ever is laughable.
posted by Keith Talent at 5:12 PM on October 26, 2009
The oval uses rainwater to flush toilets. Not that there isn't a whole lot of green BS going on, but you can't really fault that.
posted by ssg at 5:16 PM on October 26, 2009
posted by ssg at 5:16 PM on October 26, 2009
The oval uses rainwater to flush toilets.
They've been doing that off Hastings St for years.
just kidding! Love ya Gastown!
posted by GuyZero at 5:21 PM on October 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
They've been doing that off Hastings St for years.
just kidding! Love ya Gastown!
posted by GuyZero at 5:21 PM on October 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
Oh hurrah, that makes up for all the arts cuts and library cuts and the Olympic Village clusterfuck!
Bitter? Now why would I be bitter?
posted by jokeefe at 5:38 PM on October 26, 2009
Bitter? Now why would I be bitter?
posted by jokeefe at 5:38 PM on October 26, 2009
Stade Olympique
I wager it's provided more employment for structural engineers by itself than the entire 2010 Olympics.
Followed, one would hope, by their prompt unemployment.
Of course, it's probably fair to assume that some of those people went on to build Montreal's highway system out of the same breadsticks.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:08 PM on October 26, 2009
I wager it's provided more employment for structural engineers by itself than the entire 2010 Olympics.
Followed, one would hope, by their prompt unemployment.
Of course, it's probably fair to assume that some of those people went on to build Montreal's highway system out of the same breadsticks.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:08 PM on October 26, 2009
Sadly, this very much *does* count as sustainable relative to most other building methods.
...as the architecture is pretty pedestrian and dreary in my opinion is the sheer size of it. The track is 500 meters in length, completely under an unencumbered span.
*yawn* i build spans that large every weekend so pedestrian and dreary
posted by DU at 6:11 PM on October 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
...as the architecture is pretty pedestrian and dreary in my opinion is the sheer size of it. The track is 500 meters in length, completely under an unencumbered span.
*yawn* i build spans that large every weekend so pedestrian and dreary
posted by DU at 6:11 PM on October 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
From the Stade Olympique link: "The original installer of the roof, Danny's Construction, also sued Birdair. "
posted by smackfu at 6:21 PM on October 26, 2009
posted by smackfu at 6:21 PM on October 26, 2009
Recently I've been from Wenatchee WA up to Merritt BC and over to Bellingham WA and there is mile after mile of infestation and that area isn't even the most thoroughly effected. My cousin in Merritt BC said there is enough beetle kill already to supply their 2 local mills for 20 years. Problem is of course the wood deteriorates as dead wood normally does - what is lumber now is suitable only for paper in 12 years. It's a huge mess.
posted by vapidave at 6:27 PM on October 26, 2009
posted by vapidave at 6:27 PM on October 26, 2009
Please, Vancouver is in the middle of a temperate rainforest
Technically, no, it's not. Vancouver gets about 1200mm of rain a year. A rainforest is defined as an forest getting at least 1750mm/year. 1200mm = 47"/year, slightly less than what Atlanta gets.
As well, Vancouver, like Seattle and Portland, has rainy winters and bone-dry summers. If you want green grass in the summer, you're going to have to get that water from somewhere other than the sky. Rainwater collection is a far better way to do that than the alternative -- pulling water from the drinking water supply.
pretending that the water capture is laudable in any way outside of masturbatory green-washing is hilarious.
Seattle's city hall uses rainwater to flush the toilets. Given that they're saving some 5 million gallons a year from being drawn down from the Tolt and Cedar Rivers, and given that climate change is suggesting Seattle will be facing warmer and drier summers to go with drier and cooler winters, don't you think it's more green to preserve what will be a shrinking drinking water supply for an area whose population is slated to have added 70K people by 2020?
I just don't think rainwater collection is such a bad thing, especially given that it's happening in areas where the water is already just going to run straight across the concrete into the storm sewers.
posted by dw at 11:52 PM on October 26, 2009
Technically, no, it's not. Vancouver gets about 1200mm of rain a year. A rainforest is defined as an forest getting at least 1750mm/year. 1200mm = 47"/year, slightly less than what Atlanta gets.
As well, Vancouver, like Seattle and Portland, has rainy winters and bone-dry summers. If you want green grass in the summer, you're going to have to get that water from somewhere other than the sky. Rainwater collection is a far better way to do that than the alternative -- pulling water from the drinking water supply.
pretending that the water capture is laudable in any way outside of masturbatory green-washing is hilarious.
Seattle's city hall uses rainwater to flush the toilets. Given that they're saving some 5 million gallons a year from being drawn down from the Tolt and Cedar Rivers, and given that climate change is suggesting Seattle will be facing warmer and drier summers to go with drier and cooler winters, don't you think it's more green to preserve what will be a shrinking drinking water supply for an area whose population is slated to have added 70K people by 2020?
I just don't think rainwater collection is such a bad thing, especially given that it's happening in areas where the water is already just going to run straight across the concrete into the storm sewers.
posted by dw at 11:52 PM on October 26, 2009
"As well, Vancouver, like Seattle and Portland, has rainy winters and bone-dry summers. If you want green grass in the summer, you're going to have to get that water from somewhere other than the sky. Rainwater collection is a far better way to do that than the alternative -- pulling water from the drinking water supply."
The municipal supply is rainwater anyway, and poorly treated at that.
posted by maledictory at 12:08 AM on October 27, 2009
The municipal supply is rainwater anyway, and poorly treated at that.
posted by maledictory at 12:08 AM on October 27, 2009
"They're like books: the gift that keeps on giving. But instead of giving you knowledge and stories, you get a lot of dead trees, and wood with beetle holes. I wonder what kind of structural stability is lost from beetle infestation."
Pine beetle kill has no holes and doesn't lose structural intgrity, asside from degradation from harvesting dead wood wghich isn't really very much fro several years. No worse than storing logs in water and sometimes less.
"And the fungus doesn't weaken the wood?"
No, not to any measurable degree. Even if it did the staining has always been in BC pine1 it just wasn't as prevalent so our design guides would have already taken into account any weakening if there was any; which there isn't.
One of the big wins in collecting rain water for use on site most places is it reduces the amount of electricity consumed pumping water and reduces the surge load on the storm sewer system.
1: 20 odd years ago I hand selected about 20 lifts (equivalent of ~5-6K 8' boards) of pine tongue and groove 1X4 for blue staining to be used for a feature wall in a board room. Ya, that was a fun week.
posted by Mitheral at 9:47 AM on October 27, 2009
Pine beetle kill has no holes and doesn't lose structural intgrity, asside from degradation from harvesting dead wood wghich isn't really very much fro several years. No worse than storing logs in water and sometimes less.
"And the fungus doesn't weaken the wood?"
No, not to any measurable degree. Even if it did the staining has always been in BC pine1 it just wasn't as prevalent so our design guides would have already taken into account any weakening if there was any; which there isn't.
One of the big wins in collecting rain water for use on site most places is it reduces the amount of electricity consumed pumping water and reduces the surge load on the storm sewer system.
1: 20 odd years ago I hand selected about 20 lifts (equivalent of ~5-6K 8' boards) of pine tongue and groove 1X4 for blue staining to be used for a feature wall in a board room. Ya, that was a fun week.
posted by Mitheral at 9:47 AM on October 27, 2009
...masturbatory green-washing
Sheesh. Getting a LEED silver certification takes actual work and real money to accomplish. This isn't greenwashing. It's a start.
posted by Carmody'sPrize at 10:02 AM on October 27, 2009
Sheesh. Getting a LEED silver certification takes actual work and real money to accomplish. This isn't greenwashing. It's a start.
posted by Carmody'sPrize at 10:02 AM on October 27, 2009
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