We all die at the 13th b'ak'tun!!!

November 16, 2009 6:09 PM

2012: Skeptics vs Believers
via The Dailygrail
posted by thatwhichfalls (49 comments total)

This was mentioned in the open 2012 thread.
posted by idiopath at 6:12 PM on November 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

Please tell me the skeptics are armed with morning stars and the believers are armed with spoons.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:12 PM on November 16

Sweet jesus. I had a manager who bought into this. She was a member of a "community" down in Asheville which sounded awfully like a cult, had a huge collection of swords for the apocalypse, was a practicing Wiccan, and wanted to vote for Mccain/Palin because "Finally a woman could be in control around here". Awfully nice lady, though.
posted by dunkadunc at 6:12 PM on November 16

This is cool but should go in the open thread.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:13 PM on November 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

Please tell me the skeptics are armed with morning stars and the believers are armed with spoons.

If you're using that as a metaphor for their mental abilities, then yes.
posted by Caduceus at 6:14 PM on November 16 [3 favorites has favorites]

I didn't realize this was a Thing. Why are humans so stupid? Look, just because someone (or a long history of someones) makes a claim does not mean it needs to be refuted to be tossed out. Simply having no evidence in support is enough to be rejected as a hypothesis, at least until such time as some evidence appears. (Yes, I'm speaking generally so as to cover religion as well.)
posted by DU at 6:16 PM on November 16 [2 favorites has favorites]

Cripes. That reminds me way too much of the Pepsi logo redesign document.
posted by Decimask at 6:20 PM on November 16

All the information on this page is taken from the Wikipedia article. Me and some other dudes spent months on that article and the person who put it in a fancy font gets the MeFi link. Oh well.
posted by shii at 6:21 PM on November 16 [2 favorites has favorites]

I think there is tremendous significance in the fact that that picture of Terence McKenna looks suspiciously like Kurt Vonnegut in a beard. Hi ho.
posted by crazylegs at 6:26 PM on November 16

Uh ...

You know, I really do like Terence McKenna, and I have done a fair amount of reading on this and have come to know some people who follow and carry on his teaching, but I gotta say, the 2012 predictions are all pretty woo-woo. It's an interesting idea, and it can be a good way to start an open-ended conversation about the Mayans or any of a number of subjects, but the way it's interpreted by the believers is more or less a redemption and resurrection (which is all a bit cliche and very Western), and there is nothing anyone can do to prove it will or won't happen.

But I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it won't happen.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:28 PM on November 16

Skeptics intelligent people vs Believers idiots

there..ftfy...
posted by HuronBob at 6:29 PM on November 16

If anyone seriously believes that the world will end around 21 December 2012, they won't mind giving me all their money and possessions on the 20th, will they?
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 6:31 PM on November 16

Please tell me the skeptics are armed with morning stars and the believers are armed with spoons.

There is no spoon.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 6:32 PM on November 16 [2 favorites has favorites]

I'm not saying that the world will end in 2012, I'm just asking why the world does not address the rumors that it's going to end in 2012.
posted by qvantamon at 6:33 PM on November 16 [9 favorites has favorites]

Children ask me often apropos of nothing, "Is the world really gonna end?"
"No," I say and pat them on the head.
Does this mean I am a bad substitute teacher?
posted by emhutchinson at 6:33 PM on November 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

What goods and services can we sell to believers?
posted by b1tr0t at 6:37 PM on November 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

MY PROOF
posted by crazylegs at 6:39 PM on November 16

qvantamon: "I'm not saying that the world will end in 2012, I'm just asking why the world does not address the rumors that it's going to end in 2012."

dibs on didtheworldendin2012.com
posted by idiopath at 6:39 PM on November 16

Also too late, it already ended.
posted by idiopath at 6:43 PM on November 16

Skeptics and Believers agree on one thing : Rogue Planet Nibiru is pretty much the awesomest band name EVAR !!?
posted by mannequito at 6:43 PM on November 16

What goods and services can we sell to believers?

How about a copy of Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World for starters.
posted by crapmatic at 6:44 PM on November 16 [5 favorites has favorites]

These people are educated stupid. Earth has 4 corner simultaneous 4-baktun time cube in only 20 katun period. 4 corner baktuns, cubes 4 quad earth - no 1 baktun howler monkey god.
posted by Flunkie at 6:48 PM on November 16 [2 favorites has favorites]

What goods and services can we sell to believers?

Tickets to the ark, obviously. $50,000 and you too can carry on hope for all humanity.
posted by fungible at 6:49 PM on November 16

There is no way you will ever convince me that soda gnomes do not exist, and that what lies at the heart of the soda machine is nothing but some blind and empty mechanism. I reject the very premise that the means by which the machine delivers my can of Pepsi are fully known, or even fully knowable, by human beings.
posted by killdevil at 6:49 PM on November 16 [2 favorites has favorites]

Make fun of me all you want, but I definitely believe that the year 2012 is going to exist.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 6:51 PM on November 16 [3 favorites has favorites]

or are even fully knowable
posted by killdevil at 6:51 PM on November 16

Read the Invisible Landscape. Then tell me you understood Chapter 5, you liar. Then read Sirens of Titan by Vonnegut. Ahhhhhh... It all becomes clear. Wait for the kite shaped inter-stellar beings to get trapped in the craters. Then tell me you know it all, wise guy.
posted by crazylegs at 6:51 PM on November 16

Metafilter: Why are humans so stupid?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:52 PM on November 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

> and the person who put it in a fancy font gets the MeFi link. Oh well.

To be fair though, it was a lot more than just a fancy font. The author's blog, Information is Beautiful has a lot of other posts on the topic of data visualization and infographics, plus a few more cool examples thereof.

Take another look at the 2012 infographic in the original post and consider: What did the author do to make the data easier to read, to understand, and to digest? There's an art to it. I personally find it a fascinating intersection of graphic design, user experience, and art.

(Considering buying his book. Has anyone else read it? Comments?)
posted by The Lurkers Support Me in Email at 6:53 PM on November 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

Would everyone please just settle down and line up to buy all my leftover Y2K crap already?
posted by Ron Thanagar at 6:53 PM on November 16

dibs on didtheworldendin2012.com

Nobody gets this. I'll try to explain it all as simply as I can. The world did end in 2012. The singularity happened, and we're living in a virtual universe in which it only seems to be 2009. And the computer running this simulation? The Mayan Calendar, of course. Which means that the simulation has actually been running it since it was given to the Mayans by a extra-terrestrials. That is, 2012 was the date that the Mayans had that spiritually-transforming contact. Time is now just a big mobeus strip, upon which the Akashic records (or simulation) are inscribed.
posted by treepour at 6:53 PM on November 16

All the information on this page is taken from the Wikipedia article. Me and some other dudes spent months on that article and the person who put it in a fancy font gets the MeFi link. Oh well.

An FPP that simply linked to a Wiki page, no matter how good a Wiki page, would simply not fly. Next time, use snazzy graphics and big fonts!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:54 PM on November 16

there..ftfy...

I don't believe that intelligence is mutually exclusive with delusion. We all have some delusions, and indeed the world we know, that we "see," is very difficult to interpret objectively, because we're all limited in our perceptions.

I really don't mind magical thinking and mysticism, but there is a way to be healthy with it, and there is a way to let it rule you. Politicians love the people who let it rule them, because they're easy to manipulate and will practically do anything, given the right motivation. Lack of boundaries is also a problem. I do think a lot of this can be attributed to problems with not teaching critical thinking enough in early education, and I know some brilliant people who have no grasp at all about certain subjects, so they sort of fill it in with magical things. I don't think it's indication of lack of intelligence, but rather the lack of emphasis on critical thinking and ideas as old as the Socratic method.

Intelligence without a framework and point of reference is going to seek out information to fill in the gaps, and probably much more randomly than if it can be taught how to think effectively and rationally. Also, well ... LSD, mescaline, etc. Fantastic tools, not at all joking. But intelligent people on acid trying to interpret ideas they don't fully grasp are going to go on long flights of fancy. And it's pretty cool, but it doesn't work well trying to put that magical stuff back into the other world, though the insights gained can well be worth the trip, and it's important to do this if the experience is life-changing. Just that you have to leave some of that other stuff behind when you come back, the magical parts, when you talked to goddess or an alien, or at least be very careful about what you do with it if you try, because it's probably not enough to build a society or a religion, not a good one anyway.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:55 PM on November 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

I believe that we'll have a year we think is 2012, but that may or may not actually be 2012.

Not that the Mayans were wrong--we know that two years and change from now is going to be the end of the 13th b'ak'tun to be followed by b'ak'tuns 14 through 20 so it isn't the end of the Long Count at all but JUST IGNORE THAT NOW--but that we don't really know what year it is, since the approximation of Year One AD/CE is extraordinarily approximate.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:57 PM on November 16

Make fun of me all you want, but I definitely believe that the year 2012 is going to exist.

That's some big faith in humanity there. There's a nonzero probability that that hysteria will evolve into panic, and to avoid a breakdown, NASA will come publicly and say that "the predictions for 2012 were actually true, and there was a huge space-time singularity, and a year has passed while earth-time was stopped, what we think is 12/20/2012 is actually 12/20/2013, so 2012 is over, please go on with your lives.
posted by qvantamon at 7:06 PM on November 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

I wish the believers could just calm down, take a deep breath, and admit they're trying to weasel out of buying us birthday presents.

BECAUSE WE ARE SO ON TO YOU.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 7:08 PM on November 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

Every endtime legend is hokum and/or bunkum, even when the legend is legitimate (i.e. older than the PR push for a new John Cusack greenscreen movie).

Still, it might be nice if we all took this opportunity to switch to the Mayans' superior calendar and finally get off the B.C./A.D. thing once and for all. (B.C.E. and C.E. ain't foolin' nobody.)
posted by Sys Rq at 7:10 PM on November 16

evidenceofabsence: Make fun of me all you want, but I definitely believe that the year 2012 is going to exist.

But I think the question is, will the year 2013?
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:11 PM on November 16

I believe that we'll have a year we think is 2012, but that may or may not actually be 2012.

Not that the Mayans were wrong--we know that two years and change from now is going to be the end of the 13th b'ak'tun to be followed by b'ak'tuns 14 through 20 so it isn't the end of the Long Count at all but JUST IGNORE THAT NOW--but that we don't really know what year it is, since the approximation of Year One AD/CE is extraordinarily approximate.

You know, I've always wondered about that, and just assumed we had a handle on the whole "not dropped a year anywhere in the middle ages" problem. I eagerly await proper historical research into this, accompanied by a bestseller "Charlemagne: The Lost Years".

Maybe need a better way of counting the years? I think adopting a calendar with a more long-term approach to counting time would help. I wonder where there's a spare calendar like that...

Happy New Baktun everybody!

(Actually, that's a terrible idea, I would almost 40 tzolkins old. I don't feel a day over 30 tzolkins!)
posted by Sova at 7:16 PM on November 16

I know that this 2012 business is all a lot of hokum. Why? Because I believe the predictions of Zager and Evans.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:16 PM on November 16

qvantamon: "There's a nonzero probability that that hysteria will evolve into panic, and to avoid a breakdown, NASA will come publicly and say that "the predictions for 2012 were actually true, and there was a huge space-time singularity, and a year has passed while earth-time was stopped, what we think is 12/20/2012 is actually 12/20/2013, so 2012 is over, please go on with your lives."

Created how? With the LHC?! OH MY GOD WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!
posted by brundlefly at 7:17 PM on November 16

I think if I believed that the world was going to end in 2012 I'd be hitting the sex, drugs, and rock and roll as hard as I possibly could. That the "2012 END OF THE WORLD OMGIES" people seem to mostly just be living their everyday lives seems like one of the more immediate refutations of it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:17 PM on November 16

As a boy I remember sitting in church on sunday and the pastor said, " well there may not be church service next week . . ."

'Go on.'

" . . .Since we may be raptured. Enjoy the coffee and dougnuts."

88 REASONS Why The Rapture Will Be In 1988
posted by nola at 7:18 PM on November 16

I think if I believed that the world was going to end in 2012 I'd be hitting the sex, drugs, and rock and roll as hard as I possibly could.

Why not just do all that anyway?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:18 PM on November 16

Hal Lindsey's predictions of the end
posted by nola at 7:21 PM on November 16

Greg_Ace: It's on my Google calendar, so, I'm gonna say yes. Science!

qvantamon: I guess there's also a nonzero possibility that Sarah Palin will be elected president of the US, in which case my hysteria will evolve into panic, and not even the likes of NASA or a space-time singularity will save me. (Believers, take note: I'll still be accepting birthday gifts in the asylum.)
posted by evidenceofabsence at 7:21 PM on November 16

Why not just do all that anyway?

Well, because I have this idea that I'd like to exist past the next three years.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:21 PM on November 16

You think THAT far ahead?

Maybe I should try that...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:23 PM on November 16

The author's blog, Information is Beautiful has a lot of other posts on the topic of data visualization and infographics, plus a few more cool examples thereof.

Take another look at the 2012 infographic in the original post and consider: What did the author do to make the data easier to read, to understand, and to digest? There's an art to it. I personally find it a fascinating intersection of graphic design, user experience, and art.

I agree most of Information is Beautiful is good information design, but this one is just bad. The most important information here is that 2012 believers are completely wrong, and the design fundamentally confuses this point by giving belief the same visual weight as skepticism.

Given that McCandless has established an ability to do much better than this, I suspect this is cynical linkbait.
posted by scottreynen at 7:24 PM on November 16