Comments on: Cash for Clunkers, State by State

Cash for Clunkers, State by State

jefficator — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:54:26 -0800

Edmunds released data this month on the results of the Cash for Clunkers stimulus. Freakonomics blog commented. Now the Detroit News has offered a state-by-state analysis of how funds were used. Which state was most likely to trade an American car for another American car? You guessed it...

By: shakespeherian

shakespeherian — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:59:10 -0800

I was going to wonder why there was such a percentage disparity between Wyoming and Montana, but then I realized that with a population in the low teens, it's easy for one or two people to effect a large percentage shift.

By: Mr. Palomar

Mr. Palomar — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:00:18 -0800

Also discussed on a recent episode of Planet Money.

By: Blazecock Pileon

Blazecock Pileon — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:06:33 -0800

A lot of unreliable, unsafe, gas-guzzling Ford Explorers being traded in for more reliable, safer, fuel-efficient Toyotas and Hondas. Not very surprising. It's like trading bad money in for good.

By: ardgedee

ardgedee — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:10:50 -0800

> Which state was most likely to trade an American car for another American car? You guessed it... Why should this be a surprise or even funny? It's not only hometown loyalty that leads Michigan locals to buy Big Three product, it's the discounts. Various tiers of employee, employee's family, retiree, retiree's family, and vendor discounts ensure that American cars cost considerably less than imports even for people whose nearest association to the auto industry is through their stepmom's step-uncle.

By: jefficator

jefficator — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:13:02 -0800

> Which state was most likely to trade an American car for another American car? You guessed it... Why should this be a surprise or even funny? Not meant to be a joke, apologies. Just looking for a succinct way of offering the data :-)

By: brain_drain

brain_drain — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:14:06 -0800

Next up: Cash for Caulkers

By: Danf

Danf — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:14:30 -0800

As someone who bought a new Saturn, I have precious little sympathy for the American automobile industry, in general, and for General Motors, in particular. They left Saturn out to die. And, curiously, Howie Long's sanctimonious ~~asshole~~mug incessantly on TV is not an incentive to run down to my Chevy dealer. As soon as I finish driving my '01 Saturn into the ground, it's onto a Honda or Toyota. They were probably assembled by Americans, anyway.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:15:10 -0800

Why is anyone still paying attention the Freakonomics idiots?

By: oneswellfoop

oneswellfoop — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:19:31 -0800

The Freakonomics link is there to show how to misinterpret the data, right?

By: stavrogin

stavrogin — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:30:34 -0800

Jun '09      9.67       9.80  -0.13     857,447
Jul '09     11.22     10.11    1.11     995,216    
Aug '09     14.06     10.45    3.61     1,258,747
Sep '09      9.19     10.63   -1.44     744,367

How does Edmunds figure that only 125,000 cars were bought as a result of Cash For Clunkers? Up by 150,000 the first month, up by 400,000 the second and last month. Can I ever trust a company whose income relies on used car sales again?

By: box

box — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:33:02 -0800

Man, if you hate looking at Ford Explorers, Cash for Clunkers really worked out great for you.

By: Flashman

Flashman — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:38:10 -0800

Wow, the Explorer is the most traded-in vehicle pretty much everywhere. Not surprised at all. My stepdad and brother-in-law owned old-school & new-school Explorers respectively, and I couldn't believe how much they depreciated in a few years. In Ontario it seems like many more people drive US models in the auto-building (clustered, kind of, around Detroit)southwest of the province. In Ottawa the cars are (glances futilely out of window) say 75% foreign. Well, maybe it's an urban(e)/suburban thing compounded with auto workers (plus people getting deals from people in the industry) and a lot just wanting to support the local industry.

By: Flashman

Flashman — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:42:13 -0800

I'm sure there's an interesting story behind both South Dakota and Nebraska loving, and then leaving the Silverado X15

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:49:05 -0800

How does Edmunds figure that only 125,000 cars were bought as a result of Cash For Clunkers? Up by 150,000 the first month, up by 400,000 the second and last month. Depends on what the usual seasonal variation in car purchases is. It might be that we'd usually expect 1.1M cars to be sold in August, and they sold 1.25M.

By: jock@law

jock@law — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:50:19 -0800

Just looking for a succinct way of offering the data :-) Succinctly offering as in, "I'm not telling you unless you click through the link"?

By: honest knave

honest knave — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:16:57 -0800

(who knew the White House had a blog!): Get out much, Steven Levitt?

By: edgeways

edgeways — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:50:28 -0800

random observation that there are an awful lot of "foreign" car manufactures with sizable production plants in the US, so even buying a Toyota in the CfC program presumably had a net benefit for American workers and economy.

By: Cranberry

Cranberry — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:54:54 -0800

My "foreign" car was made in the US. In Tennessee, I think. Are Fords still made in Mexico?

By: aerotive

aerotive — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:59:54 -0800

Blazecock Pileon: "A lot of unreliable, unsafe, gas-guzzling Ford Explorers being traded in" ...and then having their perfectly serviceable engines destroyed, driving up prices on the used car market, lessening the supply of replacement parts available, thereby reducing the mobility of used car buyers, and generally transferring money from the poor to the upper middle class.

By: box

box — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:23:43 -0800

I might be wrong, Flashman, but I doubt that the Legend of Silverado is all that interesting. ND, SD and NE are all rural states with aging populations. In huge swaths of the country, the default vehicle is a pickup truck, and 'pickup truck' basically means a full-sized domestic model. There are quite a few other rural states (TX, OK, LA, AR, MS, AL, TN, KY, &C) where the F-150 tops the list--I bet the Silverado comes in second in several of 'em, and I bet the F-150 picks up the silver in either SD, NE or both. The real outlier is Hawaii. Nissan Quest? Really?

By: MikeMc

MikeMc — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:31:52 -0800

"In Ottawa the cars are (glances futilely out of window) say 75% foreign." Aren't all cars in Canada foreign?

By: sfenders

sfenders — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:36:23 -0800

Aren't all cars in Canada foreign? Most are, but I actually saw a quite a few of these on the road this summer.

By: Flashman

Flashman — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:42:35 -0800

Yeah I guess you're right box - I imagined perhaps a particularly gifted Silverado salesman taking the bi-state area by storm (plus, I'd stupidly misread the stats, and had thought it was people selling Silverados in NE & SD, not buying them). No way MikeMc, tons of 'American' cars (trucks, minivans, muscle cars) are made in Southern Ontario & Quebec, and parts for others made there too. So these brands are sort of domestic to Canada as well. The ones that end up being sold here are of course adapted for the Canadian market - different emissions standards and having to be equipped with skis and such. Another interesting stat - Connecticut loves the Hyundai Elantra.

By: Slap*Happy

Slap*Happy — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:04:58 -0800

The point wasn't that the American car industry was on the ropes... the point is the entire car industry was in the shit-pit. Cash-For-Clunkers was intended to benefit the car industry as a whole, while encouraging them intoa Green direction. Once the auto industry bounced back, the domestic brands found they had a fighting chance. Which is a hell of a lot more than they had before. GM and Chrysler were weeks away from going under before the Gov't stepped in - CFC was a part of the Big Three rescue, but it was more specifically an economy-as-a-whole rescue.

By: jefficator

jefficator — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:10:52 -0800

...and then having their perfectly serviceable engines destroyed, driving up prices on the used car market, lessening the supply of replacement parts available, thereby reducing the mobility of used car buyers, and generally transferring money from the poor to the upper middle class. Not all problems can be solved at once. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

By: electroboy

electroboy — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:31:39 -0800

then having their perfectly serviceable engines destroyed, driving up prices on the used car market, lessening the supply of replacement parts available That assumes a lot of things. First, that the engines were indeed serviceable and not just limping towards death. Also, replacement parts may actually increase, since everything except the engine and the drivetrain could be parted out.

By: Blazecock Pileon

Blazecock Pileon — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:46:35 -0800

driving up prices on the used car market I'm not sure that makes sense. The user car market would have had the same population of used cars it had before, if people were not buying new cars anyway. If the incentive program makes it less expensive to buy a new car, that encourages new car sales at the expense of used car sales and puts downward pressure on used car prices. I think I would like to see some numbers that used cars are now more expensive than they were a year ago. I'm of mixed opinion about the Clunker program, but one thing it will do to help spur the economy is help preserve auto worker jobs in America until the economy improves. But more than that, this program will help reduce dependence on foreign oil, in the long term. Fuel efficient cars keep money in the United States, where money we don't spend on gasoline can recirculate and multiply its effect in our local economy. Fuel inefficient cars — used cars, especially — waste gasoline, sending money to Saudi Arabia and Venezuela that we do not see again, until those countries sell America more public debt that we pay back with tax revenue. If anything, by improving average fuel efficiency, we're giving money to poorer people in the long-term. Instead of poor people handing over tax dollars to service America's increasing debt, the money we save gets reinvested into schools, jobs, infrastructure, etc. That benefits everyone, especially poorer folks who live in areas that have been neglected for those things I mentioned (namely: schools, jobs, infrastructure, etc.).

By: electroboy

electroboy — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:56:33 -0800

My only big gripe with it was that in the first draft they were going to give you the 4 grand in public transportation vouchers.

By: box

box — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:38:23 -0800

(I kinda wonder, though, if the GM pickups have/had better cold-weather options (engine-block heaters, say) or something.)

By: Big_B

Big_B — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:58:44 -0800

I understand the rural/northern states need for a 4wd truck, but using tax dollars to trade in a 4wd F150 to a 4wd Silverado? You saved maybe 2mpg. Good job.

By: crapmatic

crapmatic — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:09:05 -0800

If there's one thing I've learned it's not to buy a Ford F150 or a Silverado, unless I want to have something all ready and waiting for the 2020 clunker program.

By: symbollocks

symbollocks — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:14:32 -0800

Once the auto industry bounced back, the domestic brands found they had a fighting chance. A temporary chance in the form of a direct subsidy. Will they make those same sales next year around the same time? Doubt it.

By: porn in the woods

porn in the woods — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:40:42 -0800

The slings and arrows directed at honest, hardworking, God-fearing, big ol' American car buying people is getting pretty tiresome. In fact, I was going to attend a rally today to protest this sort of closed-minded thinking but my Chevy wouldn't start

Rural Americans are real Americans. There's no doubt about that. You can't always be sure with other Americans. Not all of them are real. - Dan Quayle

By: padraigin

padraigin — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:12:55 -0800

I worked for Ford for a while, in the finance division. The employee discounts were generous across the board, even for Volvos and Jaguars, but certain vehicles were more deeply discounted. Guess which one was the best deal? Explorer!

By: spoobnooble

spoobnooble — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:56:06 -0800

I actually saw a quite a few of these on the road this summer. posted by sfenders at 5:36 PM on November 18 I've been seeing these here and there in Toronto -- had no idea they were Canadian-made. Thanks for making my (patriotic small-c Canuck) day, sfenders.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:37:55 -0800

but using tax dollars to trade in a 4wd F150 to a 4wd Silverado? You saved maybe 2mpg At the low end, a 2mpg savings adds up to substantial gas saved. In a 15000 mile year, moving from 12 to 14 mpg (made up numbers) saves about 200 gallons. Starting from 30mpg, you'd have to increase your car's mileage to 50 to save 200 gallons in a 15000 mile year.

By: box

box — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:51:28 -0800

And if you need a truck to do work on the farm or the job site or whatnot, mileage is still an issue, but things like towing and payload capacities might be bigger ones. Looking at it another way--because of CfC, folks got a $4500 trade-in on vehicles that weren't worth $4500. And since their old trucks weren't worth $4500, a lot of 'em were probably going to get a new one pretty soon anyway. (Most of those traded-in trucks were presumably old and/or high-mileage vehicles, so there's probably a benefit in terms of lower emissions as well.)