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Men's Fashion and Style
January 13, 2010 12:07 AM   Subscribe

Valet — An online lifestyle publication focused on the latest and best in fashion, culture and gear for men. Includes the two-part survey The Female Perspective, A Modern Guide to Dating from the Minds of 150 Opinionated Ladies.
posted by netbros (120 comments total) 15 users marked this as a favorite

 
An online lifestyle publication focused on the latest...

Style section: "The duffle coat, a prep school favorite, is everywhere this fall." and "And this fall, it's hard to deny the graphic Navajo prints popping up in everything from outerwear to accessories."

Culture section: "How to ensure your bookshelf's in style this fall."

Editor in chief: Jackie Harvey.
posted by pracowity at 1:31 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


"78% - The percentage of women who expect you to be "cleaned up" downstairs."

And here I am with a confused look, a disappointed wife and a spotless basement.
posted by vapidave at 1:49 AM on January 13, 2010 [35 favorites]


"If you don't trim down there, you can't expect her to wax."

Okay!

(Seriously, am I the only person in the world who's a little weirded out by completely hairless women?)
posted by Scattercat at 2:12 AM on January 13, 2010 [7 favorites]


Man, now I feel like the least date-able person in the world. I'm like Valet's Nightmare Man.

Good thing I'm already married to a woman who knows what I mean when I say, "That's a CR 20 speedbump, at least."
posted by Scattercat at 2:15 AM on January 13, 2010


(Seriously, am I the only person in the world who's a little weirded out by completely hairless women?)

No, you're not. A hairless vulva can look disconcertingly like a plucked chicken to me.
posted by stavrogin at 2:41 AM on January 13, 2010 [3 favorites]


I've been on a bit of a kick recently to dress better so this is aptly timed. This site has a lot of promise, but I'm not entirely sold on the concept. It's all bite-size info. Lists and lists of bullet points and 'buy this because we are advertising it'. There's very little information about actual quality. Not quite sure who this site is aimed at...
posted by slimepuppy at 2:49 AM on January 13, 2010


You know, there are a lot of online style/culture mags for women out there, so this does fill a valuable niche. That said, I'm not sure it fills it well. No detailed explanations, blatant advertising, and the layout makes my brain bleed. It seems a bit like its best audience is men who are already quite stylish and together on these topics (which might be what slimepuppy was alluding to?), because it's so overwhelming I can imagine male friends of mine who could use some of this information just shutting down under the onslaught.
posted by bettafish at 3:38 AM on January 13, 2010


So this is like a trade-journal for valets?
posted by atrazine at 4:11 AM on January 13, 2010


Valet?

Parking cars is sexy now?
posted by LogicalDash at 4:12 AM on January 13, 2010


Valet?

Parking cars is sexy now?


I kind of assumed they meant jack (as in cards) or manservant in general.
posted by vkxmai at 4:25 AM on January 13, 2010


> Not quite sure who this site is aimed at...

Men who wish there was a Cosmo for men, apparently.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:53 AM on January 13, 2010


Oh god. My nerdiness and Gaga fandom are duking it out, hard. It says Lady Data.

Do I follow TNG and read it as DAY - TA, or do I go with DAH-TA in line with the collective consciousness's favorite pop star? Both are acceptable.
posted by mccarty.tim at 4:53 AM on January 13, 2010


I kind of assumed they meant jack (as in cards)

In the small field of men's mags possibly named after the Jack, 'Valet' is sadly outclassed by 'Knave' (NSFW), the only hand-book favored by the truly superior young gentleman-about-town.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 4:53 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


I've been thinking about pitching Manliness Offsets. I thought of it after listening to some girly pop songs in the car and buying a "Mini Vanilla Sparkle Donut" from Starbucks. It'd be good for the guy who's upset that his lifestyle is a bit too metro or girly, and I'd be profiting from the vaguely homophobic bro-culture. Here's how it would work: After committing an act your frat bros would deem laughable, you send some money via PayPal to a man to perform an offset equally manly to the absolute value of your infraction. If you eat quiche, a man at the agency eats a steak. If you wear cologne, he'll pump iron and not take a shower. If you fought a girl and lost, he'll fight a bear and win.

I'd then run ads in magazines like this one and see what kind of a response I'd get.

NOT-METRO-IST
The patriarchy cuts both ways
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:00 AM on January 13, 2010 [26 favorites]


(Seriously, am I the only person in the world who's a little weirded out by completely hairless women?)

Seriously, am I the only person in the world who's a little weirded out by people who care what others do with their private parts?
posted by MaryDellamorte at 5:11 AM on January 13, 2010 [12 favorites]


* This publication seems very weak.
* The layout hurts my brain.
* There's too much blatant advertising.
* I'll stick to "The Art of Manliness".
* Using bullet-pointed lists is lazy.
posted by jonesor at 5:20 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


The Internet sure is full of places with affiliate links that want me to spend about $400 on every article of clothing I wear. I assume that is because a 4% commision on what I spend on clothes per month wouldn't even buy a good beer.

Want me to think you site is good? Show me the $400 trendy clothing. Then give me links to the same item at some where I would actually buy stuff.
posted by srboisvert at 5:23 AM on January 13, 2010


Just as vapid as I'd expected.
posted by Shohn at 5:32 AM on January 13, 2010


I prefer to get my lifestyle advice from print magazines with scantily clad women on the cover. But I'm old-fashioned that way.

[tightens bathrobe belt and relights pipe]
posted by Joe Beese at 5:37 AM on January 13, 2010 [5 favorites]


Men who wish there was a Cosmo for men, apparently.

Doesn't Details fill that niche already?

Anyway, I'm nearly certain that Jeeves never advised Bertie to "manscape."
posted by octobersurprise at 5:42 AM on January 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


Anyway, I'm nearly certain that Jeeves never advised Bertie to "manscape."

If you were planning to hurt my feelings re: my reams of unpublishable Jeeves and Wooster slashfic, good job, sir.
posted by griphus at 6:00 AM on January 13, 2010 [8 favorites]


Cosmo, but for dudes and with better infographics.
posted by oinopaponton at 6:13 AM on January 13, 2010



No, you're not. A hairless vulva can look disconcertingly like a plucked chicken to me.


It is taking every ounce of my maturity not to post the obvious link.
posted by The Whelk at 6:18 AM on January 13, 2010 [3 favorites]


*tickles The Whelk*
posted by infini at 6:27 AM on January 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


I like how most of the actually useful questions are like this:

Should men be A or B do you think?

Women: A: 34% B: 32% A&B: 25% Neither: 19%

Conclusion: Women are all the same.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:31 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


(Seriously, am I the only person in the world who's a little weirded out by completely hairless women?)

Why not allow women's poons to be their own business, hairy or hairless? The excessive policing of female genital grooming (dirty hairy hippy! nasty slutty plucked chicken!) gets really old. I know you didn't mean it that way, but statements like that don't always read quite the way you might have intended.

My skin's been itchy and dry this winter. I'm thinking I need to exfoliate. What's the deal with "sloughing"?

This kind of (fake, I assume) question cracks me up -- it's just so... unreal. At least in my stereotypical male world, no one goes from itchy to exfoliating, never mind to sloughing. That said, I'm all for demystifications of these processes for men; there's no reason that sloughing should be reserved for women and fashion-forward men only.
posted by Forktine at 6:38 AM on January 13, 2010 [4 favorites]


I've been noticing a trend recently to market more "beauty" products and other increasing consumerisms to men. To me, it seems very heavy-handed, like the ad agencies who've spent their whole careers marketing to the whims of women are in the process of switching gears and haven't gotten the kinks worked out yet.

As a flaming leftist, I think this is because companies have finally hit the wall of the number of things to sell to women, and so are trying to do the same thing to men. (I can almost imagine the board meeting where this idea started). It's hard to erode the generations of equating manliness with self-reliance and thus anti-consumerism (I recall a conversation along the lines of my lady-friend saying "well, you can't use the same soap to wash your face that you do to wash your butt" and myself and other assembled gentlemen saying "what? why not? they're both made of skin," etc), but I fear in a few years, it'll happen.
posted by Jon_Evil at 6:39 AM on January 13, 2010 [4 favorites]


As one of the comments on the survey observed:

"A survey sponsored by a Rum company says to drink liquor. Insightful."

As for the status of hair on one's private parts -- frankly, I would hope that by the time I and any gentleman get to the point where we're actually SEEING each other's private parts, things should be at such a fever pitch that neither of us really cares too much about the finer details of appearances. As long as there's a basic level of hygiene and no extra out-of-place appendages or anything ("....why does your schlong have an EAR on it?"), I'm good.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:40 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


I think Axe wins the prize for heavy-handed selling cosmetics to men. I mean, their pitch is pretty much "This product will get you laid." And when they wanted to sell a shower brush, they decided to call it a "Detailer Shower Tool."
posted by mccarty.tim at 6:45 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


while I'd add a hearty hear hear to one's hair is one's business supported by the EmpressCallipygos' enthusiasm, I must add that there has been a gentleman caller who could have done with the advice so stated as the forest prevented one from reaching any trees, so to speak
posted by infini at 6:53 AM on January 13, 2010


frankly, I would hope that by the time I and any gentleman get to the point where we're actually SEEING each other's private parts, things should be at such a fever pitch that neither of us really cares too much about the finer details of appearances

so you're saying if you were all hot and heavy with a guy and he took off his pants and he was completely waxed bald like a baby you be like 'tralala different strokes' and get at it without trepidation?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:55 AM on January 13, 2010


Wait, only three dates until you're supposed to go to his place? Only three dates?
posted by anniecat at 6:58 AM on January 13, 2010


Man-tip:
This information should come in monthly installments printed on toilet paper... (1) thereby placing the information directly where it is most likely to be read, and (2) maximizing its ultimate utility.
posted by nickjadlowe at 7:00 AM on January 13, 2010


so you're saying if you were all hot and heavy with a guy and he took off his pants and he was completely waxed bald like a baby you be like 'tralala different strokes' and get at it without trepidation?

Yes, I am.

Because if he'd done so because he had any kind of overweening vanity, the vanity would have turned me off long before the grand unveiling anyway. In fact, I can't think of many traits that I personally dislike that I wouldn't have already picked up on before we actually got nekkid anyway, so by that point the only reason left for being bald there is "eh, I just like it for some reason," about which I have no argument.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:00 AM on January 13, 2010


he was completely waxed bald like a baby you be like 'tralala different strokes' and get at it without trepidation?

I sure would, yeah who cares?

If peopel are interested, you can see the actual survey without all the dopey infographics here. I was pleased that their response to "broes before hoes" was nearly 50% some variant of "ugh"
posted by jessamyn at 7:03 AM on January 13, 2010


Wait, only three dates until you're supposed to go to his place? Only three dates?

As far as I understood that result, it's a three-date-minimum before the gentleman should invite her to his place.
posted by griphus at 7:15 AM on January 13, 2010


so you're saying if you were all hot and heavy with a guy and he took off his pants and he was completely waxed bald like a baby you be like 'tralala different strokes' and get at it without trepidation?

... yes? I'm not sure why you believe a waxed/shaved man would give anyone pause, let alone be a cause for trepidation.
posted by lydhre at 7:21 AM on January 13, 2010


"A survey sponsored by a Rum company says to drink liquor. Insightful."

The question that got that result is hilariously biased, not that I expect much scientific rigor from a rum company.

What looks best in a guy's hand?
Shots!
A dented can of beer
Liquor, straight up
red wine

posted by Vectorcon Systems at 7:25 AM on January 13, 2010


I remember reading the "sex is expected on the third date" theorem while reading through somebody's sister's issue of Cosmo in the 9th grade (long, long before I'd go on any dates), and thinking "wow, adults are weird."
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:30 AM on January 13, 2010


"The Female Perspective A Modern Guide to Dating from the Minds of 150 Opinionated Ladies" ???

A Sense of Humor 49%
Intelligence 27%
Looks 2%
Strength 4%
Success 18%

More likely written by unattractive, skinny guys who just moved out of mom's basement and who think they're funny.
posted by digsrus at 7:30 AM on January 13, 2010


...not that I expect much scientific rigor from a rum company.

Really? I determine all my drinking by the company's surveys. After the methodology behind Absolut's "Which flirty martini will catch his eye?" (Cosmopolitan, vol. 32, issue 11) was published in Journal of Sociological Research I switched over wholesale from Olde English Malt Liquor. For the best, probably -- Old E's 'scientists' tended to just break a forty on a counter and threaten you with it until you finally admitted you drank the "High Gravity" variant because it sounded cool.
posted by griphus at 7:35 AM on January 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


More likely written by unattractive, skinny guys who just moved out of mom's basement and who think they're funny.

I don't know, this is about dating not life-partnering. On a date, sense of humor is way way more important than, say, strength.
posted by jessamyn at 7:37 AM on January 13, 2010


More likely written by unattractive, skinny guys who just moved out of mom's basement and who think they're funny.

Dude, humor and smarts trump looks for me EVERY time. I very briefly dated a guy who was really pretty, but ultimately fairly dim, and he didn't get my jokes, and after only four dates I got kind of sick of having to explain all of my references in every conversation.

Besides, intelligence also carries over into knowing what WORKS in bed, as well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:37 AM on January 13, 2010 [3 favorites]


I will stick with the overpriced world of Uncrate.com.
posted by msbutah at 7:37 AM on January 13, 2010


"....why does your schlong have an EAR on it?"

Look, men have been criticized for not being good listeners for years. At least this guy's making an effort.
posted by Forktine at 7:42 AM on January 13, 2010 [6 favorites]


And when they wanted to sell a shower brush, they decided to call it a "Detailer Shower Tool."

I have that thing! It totally rocks! It's like a loofah with a rubber grip. Changed my life - don't knock it till you've tried it. Unlike floppy loofahs or washcloths or a bar of soap, it has drastically reduced the amount of time it takes to both deposit the soap and scrub the entire surface of my doughy body.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 7:43 AM on January 13, 2010


I have that thing! It totally rocks! It's like a loofah with a rubber grip. Changed my life - don't knock it till you've tried it.

Personally, I'm rolling my eyes at the name as opposed to the function; it may be useful, but why did they feel they needed to give it some big he-man name just to get guys to use it? "Detailer" and "tool" sound like something you'd find in an auto shop, what's wrong with just "loofah with grip"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:46 AM on January 13, 2010


These surveys ("manscaping" as an example) are insidious. They worm their way into our consciousness despite their dubious methods and conclusions. They gain their traction on our insecurities and this whole idea that we may "not be doing it right" with regard to something that really comes down to a matter of personal taste. The more the intimate can be portrayed as confusing, treacherous terrain with pitfalls you have no idea exist, the more likely you are to buy a map.

I just don't like to be told how to act like a man. Especially, when "how to be a man" seems to be a bit of a moving target. Facial hair this year? No. One day stubble? Sexy! This is fashion, not style. And for some reason, if I can only be a man based on taking the temperature of Madison Avenues' distillation of current opinion of selected women on these things, I probably haven't succeeded at being the kind of man anybody has any use for.

And don't get me started on romantic comedies. Which leave the average Joe having to outperform a team of 12 writers sitting around a table crafting the perfect delivery of the perfect act of romance. If you aren't denouncing everything you have previously loved, radically changing your wardrobe, and becoming Kate Hudson's dream date as she and her office mates look on...you just ain't quite cutting it. Romantic comedies should be banned. They insult both sexes equally.

Fuck that. When did being an engaged dad, a decent conversationalist, and a caring partner become unromantic? Or unmanly? Fucking Sarah Jessica Parker...
posted by nickjadlowe at 7:51 AM on January 13, 2010 [3 favorites]


Dude, humor and smarts trump looks for me EVERY time...

My comment was not meant to be serious but rather one of those riotous self deprecating observations about the male gender that are well known to drive women wild.
posted by digsrus at 7:52 AM on January 13, 2010


These surveys ("manscaping" as an example) are insidious. They worm their way into our consciousness despite their dubious methods and conclusions. They gain their traction on our insecurities and this whole idea that we may "not be doing it right" with regard to something that really comes down to a matter of personal taste. The more the intimate can be portrayed as confusing, treacherous terrain with pitfalls you have no idea exist, the more likely you are to buy a map.

It's mean of me to say this, but there is a small part of me that is also wryly thinking, "welcome to what it's been like to be a woman for the past several hundred years."

I can't find the lyrics online (blast it), but a few years ago I saw a production of a little- known musical by Rodgers and Hammerstein (or Rodgers and Hart? I'm not sure), which had a number in it that totally and forever won me over -- it was an ensemble number for three of the woman and was called something like "Never Be A Woman If You Can", and the ultimate thrust of the lyrics was "here's all the completely and utterly ridiculous stuff that we women are pressured to worry about, like stockings and nail polish and hairdos and fashion, which is distracting us from really important stuff".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:59 AM on January 13, 2010 [4 favorites]


nickjadlowe- What is it that you are actually angry with? Do you honestly believe that romantic comedies reflect anyone's genuine desires or that their target audience are soft-minded enough to absorb them as some sort of life-guide? Have you ever actually met a woman who realistically expected the sorts of desires you're railing against? And for that matter, to whom is the intimate not "confusing, treacherous terrain with pitfalls you have no idea exist"? That's half the damn fun.
posted by griphus at 8:00 AM on January 13, 2010


They gain their traction on our insecurities and this whole idea that we may "not be doing it right" with regard to something that really comes down to a matter of personal taste. The more the intimate can be portrayed as confusing, treacherous terrain with pitfalls you have no idea exist, the more likely you are to buy a map.

I just don't like to be told how to act like a man. Especially, when "how to be a man" seems to be a bit of a moving target. Facial hair this year? No. One day stubble? Sexy! This is fashion, not style.


Welcome to womanhood, fellas. You won't be enjoying your stay.
posted by Ouisch at 8:08 AM on January 13, 2010 [5 favorites]


The part of the brain that determines attractiveness and dateability isn't the same as the one that answers surveys. In fact, the latter often doesn't believe the former even exists.
posted by rocket88 at 8:13 AM on January 13, 2010


Jessamyn, empryess c, you are truly enlightened about man-waxing. I'd like to see a representative survey of women to see if that's a common feeling. My instincts say it's not.

More than that tho, you seem to be saying that it's wrong to have preferences about things like personal grooming. To me that's both incorrect and unfair. Everyone has irrational reasons for being attracted or un- to things, and if a person has a wholly conventional and knee-jerk responses to say, hairy or bald naughty bits in either direction it just doesn't work to say that they 'shouldn't'. I'm not going to quiz you but I guarantee there's some unexamined perspective in your brain that, given the right set if circumstances would cause you to be squinked out upon presentation. Prince Albert? Dyed pubes? Tattoo along the side reading 'Mom'? One can't help what one likes, and as gross and agressive as the plucked chicken image above might be it doesn't preclude the fact that many rational men feel the same way. As they say in AskMe, it's a data point, one that can be factored when making choices. Which is why surveys like this are interesting.

When single, I want to know the range and variety of honest female response to things like facial hair, baldness and having man boobs, in order to craft a strategy for attracting a mate, not by trying to radically shift who I am, but more to see where I'm at in the landscape.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:23 AM on January 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


We're not saying that "personal preferences don't matter," Potomac -- we're saying that they're just that, personal. They are only one small part of the complete package for us.

Which is why trying to follow any kind of statistical survey like this ultimately leads to frustration, because -- what do statistics matter when you've got an individual in front of you? What if you were that one guy who DID have an ear on his schlong, but you got it removed, only to find that the dream girl you just met at the bar has an "ear-dick" fetish and now you've blown your chance?

Be what you are, look how you like. Some people will like that, some people won't. Knowing exactly how many fall into each category really ultimately doesn't matter, because when the right woman digs you, it won't matter how many not-right women there ultimately were.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:28 AM on January 13, 2010


you seem to be saying that it's wrong to have preferences about things like personal grooming.

I think having overriding preferences -- i.e. you were getting busy with someone and their grooming preferences mattered so much that you'd stop or pull back or whatever -- seems a little strange to me, but maybe I'm not that visually oriented. Preferences seem normal, over time if you decide you like someone having conversations about what you like and don't like and what you would and would not change seems to me to be pretty par for the course.

What we see on MeFi a lot is people having sort of "what's better" discussions of women's grooming preferences or "well I like 'em like this... other ways are gross" and maybe it's just sort of banter, but it sounds sometimes to me like there's a judgey thing going on, that if a woman grooms in a certain way that's a BIG deal as opposed to a personal preference like how long her hair is or eye color or something. As if there's some right way to do it. This may be more just a difference in conversational style, but I can tell you I've never had a conversation about "male grooming" with my female friends, ever. There's no right way to do it and I don't feel like there's even a preferred way, but surveys like this imply that my opinion is in the minority. Surveys are sort of artificial, as we all know, anyhow. Because if given four options and told to pick one, I could. But if there was a fifth "don't care at all" option, I'd likely choose that.
posted by jessamyn at 8:31 AM on January 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


EC and Ouisch: I couldn't agree more. I generally think it should go without saying that what is good/bad for men is good/bad for women. And I will say (with a smirk) that turnabout is certainly fair game. What with women and their newly minted psuedo-equality in Madison Avenue decision-making circles and all. Truth be known, men have always been more insecure than women have, and it completely makes sense that this lowest fruit is first picked.

griphus: I agree with you where the fun in these things exist. I would wax, or trim, or shave my pubic hair into a little heart if that's what my SO wanted. To my mind, it's a combination of what she would find sexy (or funny), and what I find comfortable. And if I wasn't sure what she thought was sexy, I would just...ask her.

The bigger issue is the Romantic Comedy thing. My comment was meant to have a smirky, as opposed to literal rage to it. But bluntly (with caveats), yes, I think many women/girls do respond to what they see on tv. We all do. That said, my assumption would be that the readership here is not exactly representative of the public at large, so maybe these ideas don't find their way into these lives like they do for many people.

I have worked with a fair amount of "troubled" kids from different backgrounds, and I can tell you that yes, the relationships they see on TV are ones they feel are real and to be emulated. TV and mass media are our popular culture and you don't have to look particularly hard to find young people emulating ridiculous things they see in it. Thug culture, vapid glamor, and overt pop-sexiness all spread like wildfire. It is naive to think that the flip side of this coin, relationships that are portrayed as ideally romantic, would be any less attractive to the inexperienced as models.
posted by nickjadlowe at 8:45 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


It's been really depressing, if not entirely surprising, to see this trend over the last decade or so. Equality between the sexes ideally should involve either sex ditching the negative baggage their sex is burdened with & adopting the positive - instead it seems to be the other way around & everything just gets worse for everybody.

Men IMO shouldn't be taking on what were previously female burdens - for instance, that of looking nice all the time, dressing in expensive clothes, body sculpted, hair waxed - just as women should not be taking on male burdens.

All this ha-ha talk of "welcome to what it's been like to be a woman for the past several hundred years" and so on is even more depressing; we shouldn't be cheering each other into the cages we ourselves have been desperate to escape.
posted by stinkycheese at 8:47 AM on January 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


here's all the completely and utterly ridiculous stuff that we women are pressured to worry about, like stockings and nail polish and hairdos and fashion, which is distracting us from really important stuff

Who's doing the pressuring, though? A lot of the pressure seems to come from other women (and moms). The fashion industry is primarily women and gay men.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:52 AM on January 13, 2010


The Female Perspective, A Modern Guide to Dating from the Minds of 150 Opinionated Ladies.

I have a crazy friend who does have one incredibly wise rule: Don't take advice on heterosexual dating from some one of the opposite sex who is around your age. We are so invested in positions related to our needs as a particular sex, that it is really hard for us to understand the stuff that our sex does.

I keep breaking his rule and I keep finding out how true it is.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:55 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


All this ha-ha talk of "welcome to what it's been like to be a woman for the past several hundred years" and so on is even more depressing; we shouldn't be cheering each other into the cages we ourselves have been desperate to escape.

Oh, that's not cheering. It's more of a wry "trust me, we know it's ridiculous."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:56 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


They gain their traction on our insecurities and this whole idea that we may "not be doing it right" with regard to something that really comes down to a matter of personal taste. The more the intimate can be portrayed as confusing, treacherous terrain with pitfalls you have no idea exist, the more likely you are to buy a map.

I just don't like to be told how to act like a man. Especially, when "how to be a man" seems to be a bit of a moving target. Facial hair this year? No. One day stubble? Sexy! This is fashion, not style.

Welcome to womanhood, fellas. You won't be enjoying your stay.


I've always found that women go craziest for me when I do what the hell I want, when I want, with regard only for the feelings of others, not their stated or assumed preferences.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:58 AM on January 13, 2010


Exactly what Empress Callipygos said.

I am not happy about this turn of events whatsoever. I think it's horrible, and I'm trying to express a kind of wry solidarity.
posted by Ouisch at 9:02 AM on January 13, 2010


That "how should I ask you out" question seems way flawed. I mean, first off, if you have a woman's number, that means you already asked her out in-person, right? I mean, how else would you have her number? And 27% for phone vs 8% for text? WHAT? Everyone I know in my age group (mid-20s to early-30s) loathes talking on the phone, unless it's to relatives or lifelong friends. Plus, there's the danger of having to leave a voicemail, which is always a losing proposition.

I dunno, maybe there's some kind of age bias at work here.
posted by Afroblanco at 9:03 AM on January 13, 2010


But, actually, I'm also hoping that if the "other side" gets fed up enough with it, maybe we can change things a bit for all of us. Win-win.

Sometimes people have to experience a bit of it themselves before they understand, and want to take action regarding, the struggles of others.
posted by Ouisch at 9:03 AM on January 13, 2010


Afroblanco: I dunno, maybe there's some kind of age bias at work here.

I think the question asked and the question answered might be two different things.
Asked: (As a guy, and with the pitfalls of being the asker) "How should I ask for a first date?"
Answered: "As a woman, which method of asking for a date seems most respectful, (if not practical and likely) and therefore, ideally, how would I prefer to be asked for a first date assuming that I want to talk to you and will say yes"
posted by nickjadlowe at 9:14 AM on January 13, 2010


Sometimes the only winning move is not to play. Not all women get sucked into the glamour game. It's easy, really, to have a simple haircut, wear comfortable clothes (especially shoes) that don't go out of style (or just avoid worrying about whether they go out of style), no makeup, trim nails, simple soap and shampoo and deodorant. Certainly I am not the only woman who lives this way and still gets by in the world. I can still attract mates and get and hold jobs, etc.

Seriously, people get used to you looking how you look every day. It took me awhile to figure all of this out (I succumbed to pressure to wear makeup in high school, for instance), but I was never very good at the game of spending exorbitant money and effort and time for maximal personal beauty by conventional standards. And I hated how inadequate it made me feel. Just say "fuck it" and let it go, if you find it bothersome.

And extending the game to men, I agree, is a stupid idea, but what do you expect from our society? There is money to be made. I don't think this stuff will work on most guys, but I could be wrong.
posted by marble at 9:20 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Protip (and I mean this seriously): capitalists doesn't care about your mental wellbeing as long as their marketing gets your money.
posted by oinopaponton at 9:25 AM on January 13, 2010


Sometimes the only winning move is not to play.

I agree, and the interesting thing is that I don't "play" insomuch as I don't read fashion magazines or watch shows that deal in this kind of thing. I generally spend way more time reading interesting things online than watching TV anyway, so I actually miss a good amount of the commercial pressure than comes from TV.

That said, I also actually *enjoy* dressing in a certain way and using certain cosmetics, though I have opted out of a lot of this gender role-pressure in other ways.
posted by Ouisch at 9:26 AM on January 13, 2010


What we see on MeFi a lot is people having sort of "what's better" discussions of women's grooming preferences or "well I like 'em like this... other ways are gross" and maybe it's just sort of banter, but it sounds sometimes to me like there's a judgey thing going on, that if a woman grooms in a certain way that's a BIG deal as opposed to a personal preference like how long her hair is or eye color or something.

You're reading way to much into it. What you're seeing is a set of men who think they are scoring points with women by taking a side that they perceive as woman-positive. They also crop up in any discussion of cosmetic surgery (especially breast augmentation and botox) or weight (the "real women" crowd).
posted by rr at 9:51 AM on January 13, 2010 [3 favorites]


I'm curious to try the Axe Detailer jobbie thing, since I do have some flakey skin on my feet, but I really don't want to reinforce the idea that the Axe advertising campaign is working. Perhaps if I could buy an unlabeled, unbranded one that "fell off the back of a truck" from the factory.

If corporations want to pitch makeup to me, I guess that's okay. But at least ditch the advertising that insults both men and women's intelligence.
posted by mccarty.tim at 9:58 AM on January 13, 2010


What you're seeing is a set of men who think they are scoring points with women by taking a side that they perceive as woman-positive.

I'll bet you twenty bucks that you don't know if that's true or not.

I'm curious to try the Axe Detailer jobbie thing

Nah. You can buy loofahs or back-scrubbers with hollow handles to fill with soap if you want one. For flaky skin on your feet you only need a pumice stone and you can get one of those for a couple of bucks or less.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:21 AM on January 13, 2010


rr: that may be the impetus but jessamyns right it comes off sounding just as tone-deaf as "SHES NOT A 9 MORE LIKE A 8, TOPS".

People shouldnt mistake their personal preferences with some kind of beauty or sexy standard. At the same time, not giving a shit about beauty conventions doesnt mean they dont exist. I don't give a fuck whether a guy shaves his chest, but I would never do it because I am sure that some percentage of women would think it looked effeminate, some higher % are attracted to chest hair and some even higher % dont really care either way. Given that I'd like to appeal to the most women possible in my role as an international love maker, and also given that I dont really care about shaving one way or another, I trim with some clippers just so I'm not all jungley.

Anyway, just wanted to get that my chest
tip your bartenders
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:26 AM on January 13, 2010


What you're seeing is a set of men who think they are scoring points with women by taking a side that they perceive as woman-positive.

Oh, yes, this aspect of MeFi always gives me a few chuckles. You left out any FPP about high heels wherein the majority of the men make it Perfectly Clear that they're the worst thing since unsliced bread.
posted by griphus at 10:32 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


What you're seeing is a set of men who think they are scoring points with women by taking a side that they perceive as woman-positive.

You don't know what you're talking about, obviously, since you ascribe a blanket motive to a group of men whom you do not even know personally. If I sometimes come across as a bit huffy on this issue (and I do try not to), it's because my own preference now appears to be in the minority and the majority is quite vocal. I always get uppity when some bullshit gets in my face masquerading as the way things "should be," when it has not always been that way and there is no intrinsic reason for it to be that way.
posted by adamdschneider at 11:10 AM on January 13, 2010


I've always found a well-designed crop circle to be impressive.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 11:18 AM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


I think of fashion as being analogous to music or I guess any art. What's popular is always changing, and it's not honestly that important. There are a million sub-cultures and different ways to do it, some high brow, some low brow. I think the best way to approach it is to just know your tastes, and then maybe you'll find someone with a similar taste/philosophy.

I guess the reason that fashion is perhaps given more prominence in society than other artistic endeavors is because while it may not be obvious at first glance what kind of music someone likes, it's obvious what their fashion sensibilities are. And perhaps this is why there is so much pressure to conform to various ideals on beauty.
posted by EyeInThePyramid at 11:42 AM on January 13, 2010


I don't think mefite men are being disingenuously "woman-positive" to score points, but I do get what you mean. If a guy here says he genuinely prefers chubby women with real breasts, there's no reason not to believe him. But if another guy had a (just as valid, imo) preference for skinny girls with big fake boobs, he'd best be advised to keep that to himself...around here at least.
posted by rocket88 at 11:50 AM on January 13, 2010


Sometimes people have to experience a bit of it themselves before they understand, and want to take action regarding, the struggles of others.

I don't think it is the responsibility of women to step up and get together to get women to stop putting pressure on guys to look good or to meet some standard, etc. It is a guy's responsibility to deal with these pressures on an individual basis.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:06 PM on January 13, 2010


You're reading way to much into it. What you're seeing is a set of men who think they are scoring points with women by taking a side that they perceive as woman-positive. They also crop up in any discussion of cosmetic surgery (especially breast augmentation and botox) or weight (the "real women" crowd).

We call statements like this "projection."

I don't like fake boobs. Sorry if this pisses you off.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:10 PM on January 13, 2010


I think of fashion as being analogous to music or I guess any art. What's popular is always changing, and it's not honestly that important. There are a million sub-cultures and different ways to do it, some high brow, some low brow.

None mono brow, however.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:10 PM on January 13, 2010


I don't like fake boobs. Sorry if this pisses you off.

I don't think it is about that. I think it is about statements along the (hyperbolic) lines of "I don't like fake boobs and anyone who does is subscribing to a sexist conception of women's bodies and is wrong."

It's that weird vibe of "check it out ladies I'm on your side" that comes off just as sexist as the ideas they're loudly being on the 'right' side of.
posted by griphus at 12:23 PM on January 13, 2010


Its really sad to read that some men believe that they might be rejected for 'manscaping errors'. It would seem that the real test has passed by the time the pants come down. After all, there is always something to accept in a new partner's nether world -- furry, bald, crooked, thin, asymetrical, turtlenecked, plumped, scarred, pierced ... so what?

Do men really discuss their partner's physical 'landscape' with each other? Why?! It seems so de-personalizing - so distancing of oneself from the experience. Is that why they fear women do it, too?

I have to agree with Jessamyn; I have never, ever had any reason to discuss manscaping (ETC.) with other women. Tenderness, reveries, dreams, wit ... those I might share (or allude to) in my post-coital 'report to the pride'.

Isn't it funny that you don't find questions about any meaningful variables on these 'female perspectives on dating' surveys? Maybe mefites need to write their own.
posted by Surfurrus at 12:48 PM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


One thing. The article on defunking vintage clothes using a mixture of 2 water to one vodka used a picture of two SmartWater (tm) bottles in the illustration.

And close goes the tab.
posted by The Whelk at 12:53 PM on January 13, 2010


Women: A: 34% B: 32% A&B: 25% Neither: 19%

Conclusion: Women are all the same.

Conclusion: 10% of the women surveyed answered twice.
posted by axiom at 1:02 PM on January 13, 2010


Its really sad to read that some men believe that they might be rejected for 'manscaping errors'. It would seem that the real test has passed by the time the pants come down. After all, there is always something to accept in a new partner's nether world -- furry, bald, crooked, thin, asymetrical, turtlenecked, plumped, scarred, pierced ... so what?

I'll definitely grant that there are some women who can indeed be rather vapid about this, and I think it's unfortunate. I've particularly seen some women express distaste over uncircumcized penises -- okay, fair, a preference is one thing, but this is more like they fall all over themselves to say how "gross" it is. Which I never got. Then again, I've also heard of some women getting cosmetic surgery on their OWN nether bits -- because they look different from what they've seen in porn.

Dammit, where's that "variations in genetalia" thread we had in here once? "Different" of any kind ain't good or bad, it's just different. It's like part of the detailing on this cool new car you got, and that one little detail is just one of the characteristics of that one specific cool car ("yep, heh, there's that spot where the chrome has that ding in the shape of a rabbit -- man, I'd recognize that spot anywhere, what a cool car I got").
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:10 PM on January 13, 2010


I don't think it is about that. I think it is about statements along the (hyperbolic) lines of "I don't like fake boobs and anyone who does is subscribing to a sexist conception of women's bodies and is wrong."

Snickers commercials aside, I've rarely seen women fall for "I think just like you, let's go to bed." Are dudes really doing this? Is it really working?
posted by Ironmouth at 1:24 PM on January 13, 2010


Snickers commercials aside, I've rarely seen women fall for "I think just like you, let's go to bed." Are dudes really doing this? Is it really working?

Well, I was actually referring to MeFi comments (and god I hope no one is trying to get laid through MeFi comments alone.) But I can assure you there are plenty of men using sexist "feminist" posturing to get laid (or dates or attention or whatever) and I am sure that it works just about as well as anything else.

(That is: usually not, but quite well in certain cases and almost definitely when the other party has already decided to date/sleep with them and just needs prompting.)
posted by griphus at 1:33 PM on January 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


I guess I want to add that the posturing does not imply that the person doing it doesn't actually believe. And also if the question is "Are dudes really doing this [to get laid]?" the answer is almost universally "yes," regardless of efficacy.
posted by griphus at 1:42 PM on January 13, 2010


I guess I want to add that the posturing does not imply that the person doing it doesn't actually believe. And also if the question is "Are dudes really doing this [to get laid]?" the answer is almost universally "yes," regardless of efficacy.

I had no doubts on the trying part. It was the success part I doubted.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:01 PM on January 13, 2010


I thank you, editors of this modern men's magazine, for another precious opportunity for me to mold the way I look, speak, act, and think around a careful survey of discerning females, so that I may statistically increase the likelihood that one of them will have sex with me. After all, women have had the privilege of being condescendingly told that they must shape themselves around the expectations of men by magazines marketed toward them for decades. Finally, sexism has been vanquished, and men can have the soothing, expectation-free comfort of be treated like self-lacking piles of ebullient flesh, too.
posted by koeselitz at 2:39 PM on January 13, 2010


Potomac Avenue: “so you're saying if you were all hot and heavy with a guy and he took off his pants and he was completely waxed bald like a baby you be like 'tralala different strokes' and get at it without trepidation?”

Yes, I would.
posted by koeselitz at 2:47 PM on January 13, 2010


EmpressCallipygos: “Oh, that's not cheering. It's more of a wry ‘trust me, we know it's ridiculous.’”

Ouisch: “I am not happy about this turn of events whatsoever. I think it's horrible, and I'm trying to express a kind of wry solidarity.”

Which, frankly, is a pretty goddamned charitable response. What's most painful to me about the current upsurge in this sort of shit is this:

If any of these men had actually paid fucking attention to the sexist nonsense being purveyed about the ways women were supposed to spend all their time molding themselves to male expectation, they would have taken one look at this and said "oh, fuck no. We've already seen this pandering shit before - so fuck right off." Instead we've all bought precisely what we've been handed, and whenever any 'danger word' like 'feminist' or 'sexist' or 'gender identity' or 'chauvinist' hits our ears, we do just what we've been taught to do - we yawn, tune it out, and mutter 'boring.'
posted by koeselitz at 2:56 PM on January 13, 2010


they would have taken one look at this and said "oh, fuck no. We've already seen this pandering shit before - so fuck right off." Instead we've all bought precisely what we've been handed

What's this "we" stuff.
posted by adamdschneider at 3:10 PM on January 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


If any of these men had actually paid fucking attention to the sexist nonsense being purveyed about the ways women were supposed to spend all their time molding themselves to male expectation

Whose expectations? No one ever polled me or anyone I know. I've never seen a single survey of men re pubic hair. Seriously. Where did the idea that all men want shaved pubes come from? From porn, whose sales figures are questionable? From the fashion industry, what?
posted by raysmj at 4:49 PM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Looks, 2%. That is some bullshit.
posted by kathrineg at 6:51 PM on January 13, 2010


I can assure you there are plenty of men using sexist "feminist" posturing to get laid ... I guess I want to add that the posturing does not imply that the person doing it doesn't actually believe.

Well, I'm sure the ladies are very grateful to you for pointing out all of the poseurs for them! What would they do without a sharp guy like you?
posted by octobersurprise at 7:11 PM on January 13, 2010


Some of those questions would actually be interesting if they had a sample size larger than n=150. My guess is that a lot of the results would become less lopsided. A better survey would have an OKCupid-style "how much do you care about this" rating next to every question.

Also ... why all this resistance to the idea that a guy should care about what he looks like and how he grooms himself? I really do think it's a white guy thing. Black guys totally have no compunction about styling themselves out.

Personally, I like it when a woman cares about her appearance -- and I don't have a problem with putting some effort into mine.

What I *DO* have a problem with is when people put "bro" or "man" into words, like "manscaping," "bromance," or "man date." That shit just drives me crazy. Especially the "man date" thing. When the hell did "hanging out with a friend" become some kind of a date?
posted by Afroblanco at 7:18 PM on January 13, 2010


me: “If any of these men had actually paid fucking attention to the sexist nonsense being purveyed about the ways women were supposed to spend all their time molding themselves to male expectation, they would have taken one look at this and said "oh, fuck no. We've already seen this pandering shit before - so fuck right off." Instead we've all bought precisely what we've been handed, and whenever any 'danger word' like 'feminist' or 'sexist' or 'gender identity' or 'chauvinist' hits our ears, we do just what we've been taught to do - we yawn, tune it out, and mutter 'boring.'”

raysmj: “Whose expectations? No one ever polled me or anyone I know. I've never seen a single survey of men re pubic hair. Seriously. Where did the idea that all men want shaved pubes come from? From porn, whose sales figures are questionable? From the fashion industry, what?”

Men's expectations. And I didn't say that this was an injustice solely created and perpetuated directly by all men; I only said that women had been encouraged to cater to the whims of men. Yes, the fashion industry does this; and most overt forms of sexism you can find in American society at least are of this form today, in my estimation. It's easy to point out and get rid of the sexism that says "men are better than women" in some overt way, for example that pays men more than women. (I say this even though we're clearly not equal on that point yet.) But you still see this kind of sexism all the time: the sexism that says "oh, to get a good man, you'd better x, y, and z." The biggest manifestation of this is the extreme emphasis on the image and appearance of women; women, infinitely more than men, are judged, casually but deeply, by the way that they look, even by those of us who don't often realize we're doing it and even by other women. That doesn't change the fact that we men are part of the equation, and have a responsibility at least to indicate that we're not in complicity with that system.
posted by koeselitz at 7:45 PM on January 13, 2010


Men's expectations? Says who? Where are the men? Who are they?
posted by raysmj at 7:49 PM on January 13, 2010


Ironmouth: “Snickers commercials aside, I've rarely seen women fall for ‘I think just like you, let's go to bed.’ Are dudes really doing this? Is it really working?”

If a woman you wanted to sleep pretended to agree with everything you said in order to convince you to sleep with her, would you turn her down?

Sometimes it seems like the whole posture we men take toward women seems like kind of an irrelevant game. When a woman does sleep with us, it seems impossible for us to believe that they just had sex with us because they happened to want to have sex at that particular moment, because we think that's something only men do - we're all convinced that women can't stand having sex, and must be convinced to go to bed with us through an elaborate ritual whereby we prove to them that we're worth the sacrifice. Almost invariably, we men try to recreate the last silly thing we were doing before a woman apparently decided to sleep with us; if a woman slept with us right after we'd painted our faces blue and sung "The Star-Spangled Banner" backwards, we'd buy gallons of blue paint and spend all of our time running up to women and doing the same thing over and over again.

I have a feeling women get a certain amount of amusement out of this.
posted by koeselitz at 8:16 PM on January 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


raysmj: “Men's expectations? Says who? Where are the men? Who are they?”

I don't understand what you're getting at. Men. They have penises. Have you seen them? They're everywhere.
posted by koeselitz at 8:23 PM on January 13, 2010


You know, the fact that the people in society who put all the pressure on women to be a particular way didn't poll you before they came up with their list of ways those women must be – doesn't mean you're absolved from standing up and saying that that pressure is wrong.
posted by koeselitz at 8:27 PM on January 13, 2010


What men want shaved pubes? You're suggesting that this is something most men want, even expect. This is fact?
posted by raysmj at 8:32 PM on January 13, 2010


And I'm speaking of female pubes. I don't expect them, doubt that most American men of any age really give a damn.
posted by raysmj at 8:35 PM on January 13, 2010


Will someone google female pubic hair statistics already? I don't want google to think I'm into whatever the hell that's about. Google is already serving me up some wild ads.
posted by kathrineg at 8:44 PM on January 13, 2010


P.s. false consensus bias
posted by kathrineg at 8:45 PM on January 13, 2010


I don't think the actual numbers conform to my own beliefs. I'm trying to think of most people of most demographic categories. And this only in the U.S., which is what I know best, and areas of the U.S. outside of the major/fashionable cities. Men expect shaved legs and underarms in the U.S., yes, but pubes?
posted by raysmj at 8:52 PM on January 13, 2010


Also ... why all this resistance to the idea that a guy should care about what he looks like and how he grooms himself?

I can only speak for myself, but it's not the personal grooming that bothers me so much as the creation of a concern that must result in purchasing something, that capitalist one-two punch of here's a problem, we sell you the solution. People getting rich off anxieties they perpetuate and advertise.

As the sexes become more equal in society, I would've thought they'd observe the positive and negative aspects of the other, male or female, and then incorporated that knowledge into their own lives - men becoming less concerned with violent behavior, for example, women less concerned with personal upkeep. In such a scenario, both sexes are improving, fighting these negative traits that keep us down.

What I'm seeing in Western society though is that the reverse of that is happening, and we get increased instances of women behaving violently and men thinking their stomach ought to look like a six pack.
posted by stinkycheese at 9:03 PM on January 13, 2010


Do we really have increased instances of women behaving violently??
posted by kathrineg at 9:08 PM on January 13, 2010


"The Female Perspective A Modern Guide to Dating from the Minds of 150 Opinionated Ladies" ???

A Sense of Humor 49%
Intelligence 27%
Looks 2%
Strength 4%
Success 18%

More likely written by unattractive, skinny guys who just moved out of mom's basement and who think they're funny.
posted by digsrus

I am a firm believer that you should ignore what people say they want, because most people don't have the slightest clue what they really want.

Reminds me of Jason Alexander (who played George on Seinfeld) who said something like this: "Women always say they are primarily interested in humor, not looks. I've base my entire life on being funny. But they are not interested in me. They must think Brad Pitt is freeking hilarioius!"


"Dude, humor and smarts trump looks for me EVERY time. I very briefly dated a guy who was really pretty, but ultimately fairly dim, and he didn't get my jokes, and after only four dates I got kind of sick of having to explain all of my references in every conversation."--EmpressCallipygos

This pretty much proves Jason's point. Getting the woman to go out with you on the first date is the hardest part. There are a lot of rejections before someone says yes (for some of us anyway). In this case, it looks like the dim, non-humorous, pretty boy got the date.
posted by eye of newt at 9:13 PM on January 13, 2010 [2 favorites]


raysmj: “What men want shaved pubes? You're suggesting that this is something most men want, even expect. This is fact? ... And I'm speaking of female pubes. I don't expect them, doubt that most American men of any age really give a damn.”

I'm still not sure what your point is. So you don't give a damn about pubes, and you don't think most men do. That's a nice idea. I don't give a damn about pubes either. Are you making an objection to what I said? I guess I shouldn't assume that you are; all you did was ask questions. Sorry if I'm seeing an implication that's not there.

I get the feeling you're trying to say that the image that women are pressured to conform to isn't actually the image that most men desire. If so: I take the point that the actual desires of men are often irrelevant to this scheme, but I don't agree that most men don't actually want the societal model - because most men do. Desire isn't a simple, inborne, innate thing; it's shifting. You say "I don't give a damn about them," but how do you know how you'll feel tomorrow? Desire changes. What's more, society plays a huge role in that change, and is constantly molding and shaping the things we desire, telling us this is more sought-after or that is closer to the standard of perfection. My experience is that "most men" are indeed slaves to this, and desire what they're encouraged to desire; "most men" desire a woman who "looks like a model," who is of a particular build and look, who has certain homogenized aspects. Men have desires that are in large part determined by society. They're not any different from women in that respect.
posted by koeselitz at 9:16 PM on January 13, 2010


raysmj: “I don't think the actual numbers conform to my own beliefs. I'm trying to think of most people of most demographic categories. And this only in the U.S., which is what I know best, and areas of the U.S. outside of the major/fashionable cities. Men expect shaved legs and underarms in the U.S., yes, but pubes?”

Why the obsession with pubes?
posted by koeselitz at 9:19 PM on January 13, 2010


kathrineg: “Do we really have increased instances of women behaving violently??”

I'm looking for statistics now, but: yes. There's been a dramatic rise in violence committed by women, especially in the UK. Of course, given the data, the vast majority's committed by men, but there's still been a very big rise, as I recall.
posted by koeselitz at 9:30 PM on January 13, 2010


Ah - apparently I might have been somewhat wrong. Or at least it's more interesting than that, the Daily Mail notwithstanding, of course. Here's an interesting source: an article from 2000 entitled "Women and crime the world over" -
The percentages of violent crimes committed by women—specifically homicide and robbery—were consistently low across countries and increased only slightly over time. The percentages of property and financial crimes committed by women—specifically theft and fraud—were consistently higher than the percentages for violent crimes, and have increased more substantially over time. In addition, an analysis of the most recent data revealed a positive and significant relationship between women's overall crime rates and the countries' economic development. In those countries in which women occupy a higher status, as measured by formal years of schooling and representation in the labor force, we found some positive and significant correlations with the arrest rates for theft and fraud. There were also some strong negative relationships between female arrest rates for homicide and their status in society.
posted by koeselitz at 9:47 PM on January 13, 2010


You specifically responded to my post! Jesus. Write about whatever is on your head, then.
posted by raysmj at 10:14 PM on January 13, 2010


My point is that many women are adopting negative traits of men, just as many men are adopting negative traits of women. Violence might not a great example, I confess, but it was the first thing that came to mind.
posted by stinkycheese at 10:52 PM on January 13, 2010


What, guys can't wear bikini underwear anymore?
posted by Lukenlogs at 11:38 PM on January 13, 2010


Someone was asking for percentages of people who shave "down there." From this Der Spiegel article:

According to a representative poll by Leipzig psychologist Elmar Brähler published this Monday, 50 percent of women between the ages of 18 and 25 admit to shaving their pubic hair. The study also shows that men in the same group are following their lead: A quarter of them either trim or remove their pubic hair....

Last November, Brähler came out with figures that were considerably more spectacular than his current results. At the time, a study he had conducted among university students concluded that 88 percent of women and 67 percent of men depilated their genital areas. Those numbers have since been circulating throughout the media. But they were based on a survey of only about 300 students at a university hospital. The new poll, on the other hand, provided representative results for the first time from 2,512 test subjects — and the percentage of young men who said that they shaved their pubic hair precipitously dropped from close to 70 percent to a little more than 20 percent.


And from a Vagisil-funded study in 2006:

Fashion and grooming trends have extended below the waist. One fourth (25 percent) of all women aged 18 and older report that they "closely trim their pubic hair with scissors or clippers," and 23 percent say they shave part of their pubic hair off. Nine percent say they shave all of their pubic hair off.

Women in the 18 to 44 age group are more likely to remove hair in their pubic region than women over 45, perhaps because this age group is more likely to think that men prefer a well-manicured pubic region on a woman (38 percent of women aged 18-44 think most men prefer a manicured look, compared to 14 percent of women aged 45-54 and 3 percent of those aged 55 and older).

posted by Forktine at 6:31 AM on January 14, 2010


From a purely practical standpoint, it seems to me that trimmed would be way better for not getting hairs all up in your mouth.
posted by scrutiny at 6:44 AM on January 14, 2010


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