July 6, 2001

5:51 AM

China is on an 'execution frenzy' executing more people 1750+ over the past 3 months then the rest of the world combined over the past 3 years.. according to Amnesty International. The parades and stadiums add a nice Roman-era twist.
posted by stbalbach (34 comments total)

I'm going to postulate that when it's so crowded you can barely squeeze out a fart, the value of human life drops back a tad.

"Chinese officials argue that political considerations should not be used to judge Beijing's Olympic bid."

One thing is for sure: I'd hate to be on their team and not bring back some metal.
posted by dong_resin at 6:05 AM on July 6, 2001

I wonder which leader in the US has the most executions under his belt?
Did anyone else find the 'treasure life, reject drugs' slogan to be just a bit hypocritical? I suppose here it would be 'treasure freedom, reject drugs?' :-) And if you don't you'll lose your freedom!
posted by nofundy at 6:07 AM on July 6, 2001

"I wonder which leader in the US has the most executions under his belt?" probably lincoln.nofundy,no i dont think it is hypocritical. We are hypocrites(u.s.) for all the ya-yeah and smack we do. Then pour all this money into what, drug treatment ? (bravo California for your newest legislation about treatment.) Im sick of people dumping on china. The stadium is a good idea. If you do the russian, tiled cellar with a makarov to the back of the head, people get nervous. Three days ago, i went to a friends, one of his friends related a story of her cousin who huffed raid. HUFFED RAID! the kid is walking jello mold. the kid no longer steals or robs but you, the tax payer, will be paying for his essentials for the rest of his life.
posted by clavdivs at 6:37 AM on July 6, 2001

I'm going to postulate that when it's so crowded you can barely squeeze out a fart, the value of human life drops back a tad.

Heck, one of the government's "action items" is "reduce population"!
posted by jpoulos at 7:07 AM on July 6, 2001

I'm happy to bash America, but doing so in this thread, directly under details of the even worse record of China, seems a bit odd. I guess complainging about the USA is more likely to change something...

...but thank god I don't live in China. Executed for stealing petrol, for fuck's sake!
posted by andrew cooke at 7:33 AM on July 6, 2001

Very likely there aren't many people here who remember having atomic-war-with-Russia nightmares as a kid. Well, y'all and your kids are going to get your chance as soon as China gets reliable ICBMs, which won't be long. The window of nobody-much-worries-about-the-bomb we're in right now is just that, a swiftly closing window. Ghod I'd be nervous if I were Japan.

AT LEAST, next time around when we're once again teaching duck-and-cover to 5th graders, we won't also have to endure a bunch of morons running around yammering about how wonderful the forward-looking, enlightened society of the People's Republic is, as we did when the USSR was our partner in the world destruction tango.
posted by jfuller at 8:21 AM on July 6, 2001

Jfuller, what type of things do you think will make China anxious to use the threat of its nuclear arsenal? Taiwan is the obvious one, but what else? Why would you be nervous to be Japan right now?

I know next to nothing about East Asia, and this seems like it could be a good debate: where is China going?
posted by FPN at 8:46 AM on July 6, 2001

> Jfuller, what type of things do you think will make China
> anxious to use the threat of its nuclear arsenal?

The same thing that kept Russia's finger, and ours, poised over the red button for forty years, namely the fear that the other side will push it first.


> Why would you be nervous to be Japan right now?

Because they'll be within range first, before anybody else. Because we have a current dominant world economic power and an upcoming world economic power wannabe standing on each other's toes and eating out of each other's plates. Because Japan may have forgotten about the Japanese atrocities committed in WWII but you can bet China hasn't. Reasons for sabre-rattling will be found; the human race excels at finding 'em.
posted by jfuller at 8:59 AM on July 6, 2001

Im not a Chinese expert but its a very diverse country held together by Bejing through some very Stalin-like tactics.. it could break up like Russia did which is why the human rights problems will continue to get worse with the old guard protecting its turf .. civil war might be a possible outcome if they keep cracking down hardline.
posted by stbalbach at 9:20 AM on July 6, 2001

"China gets reliable ICBMs," do they really need them, perhaps they have a few already. I think this is the language in which mr.miller raised (i slightly disagree, when i was sentient of MAD, perhaps 1974, it scared the hell out of me, i know, 61', or the heedy 50's. But this was first generation, post nuke, offspring who will NEVER know a world without fissionpistols) about fear that leds to polarized perceptions. Crime and punishment is an issue that steps into the back-end of chinese thought. backend as i feel they consider this issue two ways. back-end as in not as complicated as larger issues. I think to the chinese, crime will be revealed and punishment will follow. simple. the law provides to a degree in what we(u.s.) hoped to achieve. the regional corruption of power which weakens the central state.(starting with the Ch'in, and our Gen. Washington)((im nervous about that contrast)) nonetheless. order. it is about order. the young perhaps feel order will be maintained WITH massive western influence. we feel funny about trusting china. as a micro example, go into a chinese restaurant, and say 'she-she' at the end of the meal and gauge the response. is this respectful? perhaps catching someone off guard is the only end result. the main problem with 'getting along' is that few want to experience the PAIN of what that entails. Is human perception is really strong enough to feel that anything worthy while come of it?. I raise this because we can now communicate on a mass scale..."were MASS communicatin" tangent complete. i need to paint the kids room and finish listening to the the G man on the radio and my don dellio (sic, sp)on tape.
posted by clavdivs at 9:29 AM on July 6, 2001

did i say mr.miller...paint fumes...sorry mr.fuller. my third shift steeplejack gig is takin its toll.
posted by clavdivs at 9:31 AM on July 6, 2001

sorry clavdivs, but your posts are completely passing me by.
posted by jnthnjng at 11:03 AM on July 6, 2001

clavdius! open a window!
posted by jfuller at 11:23 AM on July 6, 2001

Has Clavdivs been sampling the medical marijuana? First, I believe Clavdivs meant to say "xie-xie" instead of "she-she". Most Chinese appreciate this gesture if it comes close to the actual phrase. Next, a Cold War with China will not necessarily be like that of the SOviet Union. China's diplomatic tactics are more subtle. They will bide their time until they feel that they have a tactical advantage. Japan should be somewhat frightened because they will bear the brunt of any military excursion that China undertakes. Most Chinese have some liking for the West but really despise the "riben wokou" - Jap Bandits. This is a topic that could be talked about for a longer time than I have at this moment but I am sure that it will be revisited.
posted by Stretch at 11:24 AM on July 6, 2001

It seems to me like there could be something brewing between India and China more so than with Japan. Both have the nukes and are looking to move their huge populations into a more industrialized economy. India has its problems with Pakistan (also armed with nukes) and if China could rope in some Western hating Muslim countries, it could be interesting. Throw in a fascist leaning Putin, who has been itching for an excuse to kick Russia into war-time economy, along with his shelling of Chechnya and shady support of Eastern European Muslim blocs. There is a good chance there will probably be an Asian land war in the next 15 or so years...
posted by Sellersburg/Speed at 11:43 AM on July 6, 2001

How is "xie-xie" pronounced? Would like to try that .. assuming it means somthing nice!
posted by stbalbach at 11:56 AM on July 6, 2001

well it is good to see Pinyin in use. it means 'go away' what do you think it means."sorry clavdivs, but your posts are completely passing me by" i could not agree more. i think were talking law and order yes, fuller brought up FEAR of the bomb. I,some clap trap about perceptions, how law(enter contrast) prevents regional political domination hence fragmenting a central gov(war lords-whiskey rebellion,?shays rebellion?) and some hooey about getting-to-know-your neighbor (with a cheap example skulking around,,,and the fact that the paint is making me a little woozy...ummm. china has always bidden her time. and the india-china gangup is almost pure Tom Clancy. Any real war in the region would polarize the planet politically."dragon takes little bites" and riben wokou seems almost in vain as what the germans called my uncle when he was kreigsgefangenen. A luftwaffe major called him 'Luft Ganster' because he was from Chicago.(go SOX) just names.
posted by clavdivs at 12:42 PM on July 6, 2001

this is a toe raising crowd.
posted by clavdivs at 12:43 PM on July 6, 2001

"xie-xie" sounds like "sheeya-sheeya", said rather quickly.
posted by frykitty at 12:49 PM on July 6, 2001

zurechtweisen.
posted by clavdivs at 1:23 PM on July 6, 2001

Because they'll be within range first, before anybody else.

If China wanted to fuck Japan up, they would have done it years ago. Japan doesn't even have a military, ferchrissakes. China surely wouldn't need ICBMs. We can all thank our beloved President for stirring up these long-repressed Cold War anxieties, but I'm afraid they're no longer necessary. There are far cheaper and more effective ways than nuclear weapons to wage war these days. If we're going to be paranoid about WWIII, we should worry more about chems and bios than about breaking out the nukes and erecting fanciful shields in the sky.

And if tensions should increase between China and the US, based on Bush's fear-mongering, at least the American People can put one of those great big bumperstickers on its ass:

"Don't blame us, we voted for Gore"
posted by jpoulos at 2:03 PM on July 6, 2001

clavdivs is jumping up and down like a hobbit seeing an elf. proud, wishing he said that.
posted by clavdivs at 2:13 PM on July 6, 2001

except i didnt vote or would have voted for Licinius II.(im sorry, that is funny and cogent so no flak from the peanut gallery.)
posted by clavdivs at 2:15 PM on July 6, 2001

jpoulos - I think that Japan not having a military is a popular misconception. Actually, Japan has the third largest military behind the US and Russia (per Henry Kissinger - PBS). I believe that it is termed a "police force".
posted by Stretch at 3:08 PM on July 6, 2001

My bumpersticker: "Don't blame me, I went with the popular vote."
posted by Stretch at 3:09 PM on July 6, 2001

I would urge my government to protest these executions to the UN Human Rights Commission. But then again, we don't have a seat there anymore. Oh well. Let our silence be deafening. I'm sure Sudan or Libya will speak up.
posted by darren at 4:05 PM on July 6, 2001

Japan has a "Self-Defense Force", and under the Constitution bequeathed them by General McArthur, it is forbidden from operating beyond Japan's borders. As such, they have only participated in support roles in peacekeeping operations (e.g. hospitals). The present Japanese PM -- who is wildly popular, btw -- is in favor of removing that clause, ostensibly so that they can participate more actively in peacekeeping, but the subtext of countering an increasingly bold China cannot be escaped.

A useful source for gauging how serious the military threat posed by China the United States is the World Military Expenditures report of the Center for Defense Information. Japan is the third largest in defense outlays, outstripped only (barely) by Russia and (massively) by the US. Japan has active troops on par with the UK, though figures indicate it's around 15th to 20th on that scale.

What was this thread about? Oh, executions, right. Drift.

I suppose if you count military executions of deserters, Lincoln might have an, um, shot -- but generally those aren't counted. Federal executions peaked during the frontier period of 1871-1890. US executions overall are mainly the responsibility of individual states, and states' use of the death penalty peaked in 1940. The use of execution had been in a steep decline from then until the early 1960s. The Supreme Court's moratorium really was just a reaction to strong social attitudes condemning it. The total number of US executions between 1960 and 1968 (when the ban began) was fewer than the total number of executions in the single year 1940.
posted by dhartung at 4:13 PM on July 6, 2001

i love clarity.i wish someone sold it.
posted by clavdivs at 8:59 PM on July 6, 2001

I'm going to postulate that when it's so crowded you can barely squeeze out a fart, the value of human life drops back a tad.

That must explain something. The USA has about one quarter of China's population and has a smaller in land area.
posted by lagado at 6:20 AM on July 7, 2001

I'm honestly not too certain what you're saying lagado, but I made that comment with a bit of smirk. In fact, that's pretty much all I do here.
posted by dong_resin at 7:42 AM on July 7, 2001

I just meant that by your logic the United States must be getting pretty overcrowded too (1/4 billion living in a smaller country than China).

This might help explain why they execute a few dozen prisoners per year (fart space / value of human life etc).
posted by lagado at 7:44 PM on July 8, 2001

Ah.
*passes the Beano*
posted by dong_resin at 8:43 PM on July 8, 2001

I think China's actually quite a bit smaller than the US, when you look at arable land. It doesn't do that billion people any good to have a country that's 80% desert.

I have nothing to add on the fart front, sorry.
posted by rodii at 10:17 PM on July 8, 2001

average population density of the China 135.7 ppl/sq km

average population density of the United States 29.7 ppl/sq km

fart space ratio: 4.6

Oh and don't bring up that tired old arable land argument, everyone knows that farts don't need arable land!

;-j
posted by lagado at 12:07 AM on July 9, 2001