Hiro, Protagonist?

February 9, 2010 11:43 AM

Racism and Sexism in Heroes and Hollywood

Second link's full version allegedly exists behind a paywall but what's up there for free is plenty meaty. More Heroes on Racialicious here

posted by jtron (69 comments total)

Here's an interview with Tim Kring in which he patiently explains that he doesn't want to do anything that the fans hate and that's why the fans hate the show and nothing is his fault ever.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:49 AM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

The whole "I grew up in a place where whites are the minority, I get how it is" thing is bullshit.
posted by NoraReed at 11:49 AM on February 9, 2010 [5 favorites]

Holy crap, those guys are so clueless it hurts. And by those guys I mean the Heroes staff members quoted.
posted by kmz at 11:50 AM on February 9, 2010

Wow, he watched the utter shitfest that is Heroes up until a MONTH AGO?!?!

This show was never "great", but it was damn entertaining for about one-and-a-half seasons. I don't understand who watches it and why they would. The acting is terrible, the writing worse, and the plot holes are just......fuck!

Although the fact that many of the writers and producers are Tea Party people would explain the suck.
posted by lattiboy at 11:53 AM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'm just guessing their Tea Party people because of the whole "white burden" rambling.
posted by lattiboy at 11:54 AM on February 9, 2010

uh, what?
posted by mrgrimm at 11:57 AM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

MetaFilter: Racism and Sexism in Just About Everything
posted by lifeless at 12:01 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

NoraReed: "The whole "I grew up in a place where whites are the minority, I get how it is" thing is bullshit."

No kidding. How naive can one be and still be a functioning adult?

Ugh. I stopped watching Heroes once the New Orleans/Katrina subplot started up in Season 2. Goddamn that irritated me.
posted by brundlefly at 12:02 PM on February 9, 2010

certain projects, films, movies, corporations will actually get money paid back to them if they hire a woman, a minority, hell double jackpot if you hire a female minority… that’s twice the money!!

that is an extreme case. But they do happen, I have seen it. Now… there are rules in place where some places require you to have a certain ammount of minorities on staff at all times. There are set up and funded “diversity programs” that are put in place as well.

I hear this kind of thing all the time -- that the existence of programs to help minorities somehow makes it "harder" to be a white man, and obviously that makes it harder then it for them then it would have been without the existence of the programs but it certainly doesn't actually mean it's harder to be a white male then it is to be a member of a minority or a woman, whatever.

Now obviously you could try to make the argument then the programs are unnecessary or that they effectively balance out any other problems other groups might have. But they don't make that argument. Instead they simply complain about how tough it is for them, while completely ignoring problems other people have.

It's kind of like when pretty girls complain about how hard it is to be beautiful, while completely ignoring how things are for women who are less attractive.
posted by delmoi at 12:04 PM on February 9, 2010 [8 favorites]

Sad and depressing and icky.

Heroes had so much potential. I was an avid, rabid, obsessive fan...for one season. And this show and everything about it has crashed and burned. So fucking hard.
posted by iamkimiam at 12:08 PM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

I just went through (rented, thanks the gods I didn't buy it) the 3rd season DVDs. My lolwhut moment was the way they wasted (pun intended) Kaizen/Adam in that jawdroppingly stupid death. I trudged to the last chapter, still, who knows why. Then I went and reread The Ultimates (I) to get off the taste of lobotomized superhero story out of my braincells. Can't say I'm not surprised at all by the quality of the staff quotes in that link, then.
posted by Iosephus at 12:08 PM on February 9, 2010

Once again my policy of waiting for a show/movie/book to show long-term promise¹ before starting the first season/viewing/reading has paid off.

¹In the form of genuine, non-viral buzz on the internet.
posted by DU at 12:10 PM on February 9, 2010

Argh, that is: I'm not surprised in the least by those staff quotes. Seems the aftereffects of those DVDs include incoherent posting too.
posted by Iosephus at 12:10 PM on February 9, 2010

I'm way more offended by the way that the quality Heroes' writing dropped off a cliff after the first season than anything else. For some reason I've kept watching it and kept expecting it to do something interesting, ever. And it just keeps getting worse.

I wish that American TV did that limited series thing that British TV does; Heroes would have been great if they'd killed it after the first season finale.
posted by octothorpe at 12:14 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

Like when you have to fill a position and you have 3 candidates and the best person is the best for the job, and the one that is not the best fit is forced upon you because of diversity quotas and not their skill. that actually makes me sick.

This right here. This is the problem. Implicitly the best candidate is white.

I know that is not the point he is trying to make (it's the tired 'but I just want to hire the best person!') but the reason why you have to 'force' certain candidates is because the game is rigged in favour of people from certain backgrounds and the people who keep it that way are, if I want to charitable, blissfully unaware of their own prejudice. Who don't realise that what makes a 'best' candidate in their eyes has a lot more to do with subjective culture criteria (he's better// he's white) than with any 'objective' quality.

If I'm going to less charitable then they are fucking blowhards who think that they are oppressed because they don't get a 'diversity program' and so need to stand up for the downtrodden white male (c.f. superbowl ads). Because it's so hard to be someone who is empowered by current societal structures before you even open your mouth.
posted by litleozy at 12:24 PM on February 9, 2010 [7 favorites]

DU: If you watch the first season and nothing else, you'll have a good time. Kring & Co. didn't seem to know what to do with their characters once the first story was finished.
posted by JDHarper at 12:25 PM on February 9, 2010

I still read superhero comics, even not particularly good ones. I enjoyed playing City of Heroes. I sometimes spend time thinking about whether Batman could beat Spider-Man in a fight (and I know how to spell Spider-Man). I should be head over heals in love with Heroes

I think I watched like two episodes of season two and then lost all interest.

That show is worse than Smallville.
posted by oddman at 12:27 PM on February 9, 2010 [3 favorites]

+2 points for the Neal Stephenson callout in the title, @jtron.
posted by stevis at 12:31 PM on February 9, 2010

I only saw the first season, looks like I dodged a bullet there.
posted by Talanvor at 12:32 PM on February 9, 2010

Yeah, I was all ready to love Heroes and I enjoyed the first season quite a bit and then BAM the second season was like a door closing in my face and I never watched it again, because it's more fun to watch Intervention and do shots every time the word "family" or "addiction" is uttered.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:41 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

Dear Mr. Martin,

I know exactly where you're coming from, and I applaud you for being brave enough to finally tell the world what we go through. Like you, I am a white man. My blood is a mix of Scottish and German, and I can't even be one of those white American men who wear a baseball cap that says NATIVE with feathers embroidered on it as to my knowledge, absolutely no ancestor of mine was anything but the whitest of white immigrant stock. I also have not worn a pair of shorts since I was a child (lets face it: grown men wearing shorts look ridiculous and make our race look like caricatures from a bad '30s animation - I'm sure you agree) so were someone to see my legs under a bright light they would have to shield their eyes. Like you, I am that white.

And like you, I know what it's like to be passed over because of our skin color. When I apply for jobs, people look at the white name on my resume and toss it in the bin. When I actually get a job interview, I'm told that I should be out looking for a wealthy wife to support me, as white males like me have no work ethic and we'll probably just end up taking paternity leave in a few years. When I'm out at the bar, my friends joke about white people and then look at me and say, as an afterthought, "Oh I'm sorry -- you're not like that". When I am at work, my colleagues refer to me as "the white guy", grab my ass and call me "honey", and get promoted faster and paid more even though they're far less experienced. The media likes to portray us as people who are incapable of doing anything other than selling drugs or collecting welfare. Women of other ethnicities and nationalities shun us because we are presumed to be common criminals. Like you, I am passed over for employment all the time because employers assume that I am here illegally and even if I were born here, I'd probably just steal all the petty cash.

Anyway, Mr. Martin, I applaud your bravery at being a white male in Hollywood. I would never have the guts or the strength to handle such a trailblazing position in an industry that specializes in portraying white males on screen as being no better than some dogshit that a non-white character steps in on her way to her financially rewarding, socially beneficial, intellectually demanding job. Thanks for being such a role-model for future generations of white men. Even though my life has been a struggle, I hope that thanks to your efforts my sons will have the opportunities that were denied to me based on my gender and skin color.

With much respect and admiration,
cmonkey
posted by cmonkey at 12:44 PM on February 9, 2010 [53 favorites]

Not since Twin Peaks has any television show squandered so much initial goodwill. The difference being that Twin Peaks was a sui generis mutant that was constantly writing its own rules and was therefore all but destined to go horribly awry at some point, and Heroes was something that should by all rights have more or less written itself without any effort at all. How exactly it became such a mess will be studied for generations to come.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:45 PM on February 9, 2010 [3 favorites]

Man, remember when they spent 5 decades taking movies about white people and replacing them all with minority actors because it's so hard to find good white actors? I seriously think it was because they had all those minorities controlling the studios.

For some people, opposite day is EVERYDAY!
posted by yeloson at 12:47 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

How exactly it became such a mess will be studied for generations to come.

Yeah, definitely. I was shocked at how quickly it imploded. What a disaster. While I agree that it was never exactly Masterpiece Theater, the first season had some quite high points (particularly the episode "Company Man" which I thought did actually approach excellence) but the show was completely unwatchable less than half a season later.

Even Battlestar Galactica's descent was more gradual.
posted by Justinian at 1:01 PM on February 9, 2010

I find that second article odd in that people keep positing that they thought people were liberal, but then they turned out to be racist, as if it's impossible to be both at the same time.

Anyway, I'm a white male, and last year when I was looking for teevee staff writing jobs, I was told constantly by people in the business that it was really hard for white men to get their foot in the door, due to all the affirmative action. I mean, I must have heard it a dozen times, sometimes by truly bitter people. I think folks just need to rationalize their failure one way or the other. (Not that it can't go the other way, either: the black screenwriter in the second article who complains about a director stealing his credit might have been a victim of racism, but that shit happens to writers all the time.)
posted by Bookhouse at 1:10 PM on February 9, 2010

How exactly it became such a mess will be studied for generations to come.

Maybe Tim Kring forgot to renew his subscription to The X-men.
posted by MegoSteve at 1:11 PM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

I sometimes spend time thinking about whether Batman could beat Spider-Man in a fight

Duh.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:13 PM on February 9, 2010

Maybe Tim Kring forgot to renew his subscription to The X-men.
Or he decided to watch the third movie.
posted by qcubed at 1:20 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

To everybody who enjoyed the first season of Heroes:

You should look up Misfits. It's kind of Heroes Misfits with ASBOs/the Breakfast Club turned up to 11. But much better than that sounds.

That A.V. Club Interview is tellingly defensive.
posted by Erberus at 1:31 PM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

I don't understand who watches it and why they would.

Two words: Zachary and Quinto. Someone on my Twitter feed (sorry, I can't remember your mefi name!) called the show "Sylar and Friends." I can't imagine who cares about any of the other characters. The show has sucked ass for 2 seasons.

I can't comment on the articles in the FPP since I haven't read them yet.
posted by desjardins at 1:32 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

How exactly it became such a mess will be studied for generations to come.

Um, no. It will drop from site at the end of this season and no one will remember it. It's just another crappy tv show, like most of what's on tv. It's biggest sin was being reasonably good for one season and then dropping the ball.
posted by doctor_negative at 1:36 PM on February 9, 2010

"Sylar and Friends." I can't imagine who cares about any of the other characters.

I haven't watched it since maybe the middle of season three, but I still read the AV Club reviews because there's a fun carwreck aspect to it, and my impression is that there aren't really 'characters' as such anymore, but rather actors who populate scenes and (sometimes!) answer to the same name from episode to episode. Motivations, relationships, and personalities all seem to be up in the air from moment to moment.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:40 PM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

On non-preview:

It's biggest sin was being reasonably good for one season and then dropping the ball.

I'd probably argue that it's worse than that: The first season got progressively better until maybe the last two episodes, but until that point it was going up and up and up, and correcting missteps and figuring out what worked and what didn't, and really seemed to be progressing, so the fact that it so quickly fell into the shitter is even more disappointing than something that was decent but maybe a fluke.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:42 PM on February 9, 2010

I watched the first 1 + x seasons of Heroes, where x is a little less than one. I think Heroes right off the bat broke two really important rules:
1) Thou shalt not have a character with the power to get new powers.
They broke this twice.
2) Thou shalt not have a character with the power to travel through time at will.
They broke this, then one of the "power to get new powers" guys got it too.

Where do you go from there? One place, Crazytown. Although I personally found the most infuriating character to be Deepak Chopra Mohinder.
posted by Humanzee at 1:43 PM on February 9, 2010 [3 favorites]

While I'm sympathetic to the racialicious article's general point, I have to quibble with this bit: "And under your watch, we’ve gotten to see The Haitian go three whole seasons before he was identified by an actual name." That's hardly indicative of a lack of significance of the character. If anything, the problem with that is that after 3+ seasons of being known only as "The Haitian," he's given a name entirely unceremoniously, with no particular impact or significance. (Contrast this with the reveal of The Bride's real name in Kill Bill vol. 2, which puts some lines from vol. 1 in a new light.)

I still like Heroes.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:44 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

cmonkey is all the Hero I need.
posted by shmegegge at 1:46 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

The fall of Heroes is has a simple explanation: Tim Kring doesn't know anything about comic books. The guy himself claimed he had never read a comic book before he wrote Heroes, and I believe him. He doesn't have a clue what do with one. There are plenty of basic traps mediocre comics fall into, and he hit them all in the first two seasons. Characters with too many powers, characters with shitty powers, characters using powers stupidly, inconsistent rules for power use, too many characters, characters that can never die, powerless useless sidekicks, fifty million time travel paradoxes, etcetera, onwards and downwards. He's no Alan Moore.

It's weird, because it seems like he got some advice on the first season and then stopped listening somewhere. Peter and Sylar were originally conceived with specific limitations to their powers, which is obviously required for them to not become omnipotent. They also had a story arc which would logically end in their deaths. The Haitian was also there to balance the sides. Then somewhere down the road they just deleted all that, and surprise, they had to depower them later because they got too powerful and became impossible to write for. The amount of amnesia alone in this show is farcical, especially considering they have a character with memory management powers but this is rarely used to explain it.

The show just parades its characters around mechanically, like Kring is playing with action figures.
posted by mek at 1:58 PM on February 9, 2010 [22 favorites]

mek, not that I disagree, but wasn't/isn't Jeph Loeb a producer on the show?
posted by jtron at 2:36 PM on February 9, 2010

Mek, the sentence, "The show just parades its characters around mechanically, like Kring is playing with action figures." caused me to favorite your comment so hard I need to go ice my wrist.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 2:40 PM on February 9, 2010

AVC: In another interview, you mentioned that part of the show’s inspiration came from 9/11. What did you mean by that?

TK: At the time, I was raising small kids and thinking about the world they were going to inherit. How it seemed to be vibrating in a way that felt precarious, given all the problems we had. We no longer had real faith in certain institutions to pull us out of these kinds of problems, like politics. Perhaps the real next salvation for us as a species was going to come from within, in a postmodern way—you, or your neighbor, or the guy you went to high school with.

And that's the same exact reason that 'Global Frequency' should have gone over really big. Or was that just miscalculation over at the CW?
posted by vhsiv at 2:47 PM on February 9, 2010

This is what happens when you half-ass Agile methodology.
posted by Artw at 3:07 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

Sounds like Heroes needs to switch to the 1960's and rename its main villain the Mad Man.
posted by stresstwig at 3:48 PM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

Who cares about heroes?
posted by Dick Laurent is Dead at 4:15 PM on February 9, 2010

Sounds like Heroes needs to switch to the 1960's and rename its main villain the Mad Man.

A reset, a retcon or a new showrunner would do wonders for this show. Sadly, it doesn't look as if Kring is going to step away from the control panel.

This show desperately needs a Bryan Fuller or a J. Michael Straczynski to run the whole thing, but I'm not sure either would be willing to take over a show in Season 5.

(And how the fuck did half the characters on Carnivale end up on Heroes? Is that just a thing that the Roma do -- wander from show to show, setting up camp before moving on to the next genre show? Daniel Knauf ought to sue Kring -- or at least get a job offer from him.)
posted by vhsiv at 5:02 PM on February 9, 2010

I think the most disgusting Heroes storyline was when the Mexican characters crossed the boarder illegally and their super power was bringing the plague. Then when people pointed out that it was kinda racist, the writers killed off the characters.

There was an essay written off the metafandom essay community on livejournal where someone created a visual graph of white characters to people of color characters, and you got to actually see via cast head shots how poc characters and women slowly disappeared over the seasons.

Heroes is a huge disappointment.
posted by FunkyHelix at 5:02 PM on February 9, 2010 [3 favorites]

Kring is just out of his depth. Poor white guy! I think he needs a pass.
posted by vhsiv at 5:08 PM on February 9, 2010

Heroes is extraordinary, if only because it's amazing to see one single show get absolutely everything wrong. Let's introduce twenty new characters each week and then kill them before you care about them! Let's ignore that one guy you actually like! Let's take away the funny villain's body so he can't kill people even though him killing people is the best part of the show! Let's have this guy and he has the power of Tattoing and also of Moving Buildings and Seeing Air and also he can Teleport Two Inches to the Left of Where He Was! That'll be awesome! Oh look we're going to kill this kid! Who you just met! Isn't it AWFUL ARE YOU CRYING?? Also there's a lesbian now! Except not really because we totally faked you out! Let's talk about her college angst for half a season which it might not have anything to do with the plot but Teenagers Can Relate to This!

I admit I'm still sort of watching but only because my sister and I get incredibly drunk and liveblog the trainwreck.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 5:37 PM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

There was an essay written off the metafandom essay community on livejournal where someone created a visual graph of white characters to people of color characters, and you got to actually see via cast head shots how poc characters and women slowly disappeared over the seasons.

Yes, it's in the first link of this post. And it's very instructive.

First the POC have gone from 55% of the main cast to 25%.

And how any show with 12 regulars only has 3 female leads is beyond me.
posted by crossoverman at 6:17 PM on February 9, 2010

There's a whole lot i could ask about Heroes, my biggest is why they made Parkman the most interesting and fleshed out character and then give him .001% of the screen time as every lead got dumber by the second?
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 6:32 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

I think season one was really great...until the final episode. They should've killed Sylar off that episode and started off the next season with an all new threat. Instead, he becamea fan favorite and the writers clearly didn't know what to do with him. That said, there were obviously other issues. Too many writers, each assigned to a character or two and then trying to paste everything together later. Things became quite a mess during season two and beyond.

Until this season. This season to me was a return to form on some level. The characters were not flung apart, the storylines were tighter, there was a real focus driving everyone. Still a few too many characters, but the writers didn't try to let us get to know them all and kill the pace. I think the short season likely helped, but in general, this season was very good. It was somewhat cliche, but none of it felt completely separate or useless. It didn't make me go "Get to the point already!" They tied things in quite well and focused a little more on relationships between characters. It was still too Claire-heavy and a few episodes had some weaknesses/ridiculous choices/retcons, but overall I felt like this season was what should've followed the first one. It also ended well, in terms of the new season's opener. In line with comics there.

I do have to say that those comments made regarding privilege and such were disgustingly naive.

I think the most disgusting Heroes storyline was when the Mexican characters crossed the boarder illegally and their super power was bringing the plague. Then when people pointed out that it was kinda racist, the writers killed off the characters.

- They weren't Mexican. Not all Latinos are Mexican.
- They were twins whose powers balanced each other. The sister caused a plague when she was upset and the brother cured it. It isn't "kinda racist"., though you can make a case for it bein kinda sexist in a Super Princess Peach sort of way.
- Only one was killed, and that was relevant to the Sylar storyline at the time. The other twin, Maya, was present in season 3 and semi important.
posted by cmgonzalez at 7:13 PM on February 9, 2010

The first season wasn't much better than the current seasons. It was also uniformly terrible. It was less convoluted than it is now, but way more slow-moving; I don't think anything even close to interesting happened for ten episodes or so. It was just more watchable because it felt like it had to be building up to something good. The eventual climax with Sylar, the Mama Petrielli backstory, the role of the Company -- they held interest because they felt like they were going somewhere. But they went nowhere, and the only reason we thought otherwise was because the show was untested and out of hope. Now the show doesn't even get that benefit of the doubt.

I can't believe they gave Ando and Mohinder powers.
posted by painquale at 8:33 PM on February 9, 2010

Ya know, I watched the first season on DVD and it really kind of grew on me, so then I got the second season, and it was a lot less coherent, and shortened by the writer's strike, etc. But I put the 3rd season in my Netflix queue, and it sat there for a long time, but I could never actually muster the interest to watch it, so finally I deleted it from my queue. It seems now from this thread that I made the right choice. Too bad, really. The show seemed to have promise at first. Oh, well, LOST is back on.
posted by DiscourseMarker at 8:44 PM on February 9, 2010

I know that is not the point he is trying to make (it's the tired 'but I just want to hire the best person!') but the reason why you have to 'force' certain candidates is because the game is rigged in favour of people from certain backgrounds and the people who keep it that way are, if I want to charitable, blissfully unaware of their own prejudice.

Not necessarily. The best candidate might really just be white. Maybe you're denying that anyone is ever good at anything, if the "game" isn't "rigged", but that to me really just indicates you've never been around skilled or talented people.
posted by planet at 8:48 PM on February 9, 2010

Counting cast members is evidence of racism and sexism? Really?

Funny, because while I'd agree the show has many problems, those aren't two of them. The cast has always been diverse. Minority and female characters receive a lot of air time and are critical to the plot^*. This latest season adds a deaf woman doctor as a primary character (conveniently not mentioned in the linked blog-rant)... how many other prime-time shows have segments shot from the point of view of a deaf protagonist?

And season four really has been much better. It almost makes sense.

* Let's assume for the sake of argument that Heroes actually has a plot
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 8:52 PM on February 9, 2010

How exactly it became such a mess will be studied for generations to come.

It's weird, because it seems like he got some advice on the first season and then stopped listening somewhere.

mek, not that I disagree, but wasn't/isn't Jeph Loeb a producer on the show?

Yeah, I thought this was common knowledge. They fired the guy who knew what he was doing.
posted by P.o.B. at 9:09 PM on February 9, 2010

Ex-Boyfriend of a successful screenwriter
Show business is the only business that I am aware of, where during a meeting all the important players of a movie are in the same room, and one person can angrily call a woman a cunt and not only does she have no recourse, if she wants to continue on that movie with the studio and team or have future work with them, she has to take it. In front of everyone."
posted by brando_calrissian at 10:04 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

A girl I had a crush on back in high school totally got murdered by Sylar. She was the human lie detector.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:54 AM on February 10, 2010

Yeah, I thought this was common knowledge. They fired the guy who knew what he was doing.

Loeb may well have known what he was doing, but the show seems to have improved in his absence. (The most recent season is the best Heroes has been since the first, it's just...still not all that good, really.) Losing Bryan Fuller (twice!) appears to have been the big problem.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:21 AM on February 10, 2010

Loeb's comics work is IMHO frequently pretty awful.
posted by Artw at 7:33 AM on February 10, 2010 [1 favorite]

^CORRECTION: "They fired the guy **three** guys who knew what he they were doing" -- Jeph Loeb, Jesse Alexander and Bryan Fuller -- even if Fuller left to do do 'Pushing Daisies'.

How NBC could trust a fucking comic book show to some guy with such little regard for the medium is anyone's guess. I suppose it's like Roy Lichtenstein and every museum that owns one,

NBC really should have taken a stronger hand wrt Heroes, but they were likely mired in negotiations with Leno. Kring was being propped up by a trio of talented producers, each with long portfolios. 3 showrunners jumping ship is a clear warning sign.
posted by vhsiv at 7:49 AM on February 10, 2010

Loeb's comics work is IMHO frequently pretty awful.

Yeah. I was going to be a sassy-pants and say I'm not convinced Jeph Loeb has ever actually read a comic book either, but that's more to the point. Loeb is terrible.
posted by Amanojaku at 11:38 AM on February 10, 2010 [1 favorite]

This latest season adds a deaf woman doctor as a primary character (conveniently not mentioned in the linked blog-rant)...

The blog post discusses the main characters of the show. Over the history of the show the lead cast has lost three people of colour and added four more white people.

Diversity amongst the supporting cast is great, but that might easily get lost amongst the giant, mostly white, mostly male lead characters.
posted by crossoverman at 12:40 PM on February 10, 2010

the giant, mostly white, mostly male

Well, I know ZQ is like 6'5", but I'm not sure that makes him a GIANT exactly. However, Milo is really short.

sorry
posted by desjardins at 1:05 PM on February 10, 2010

but the show seems to have improved in his absence

How is Bizzaro Land this time of year?

Loeb's comics work is IMHO frequently pretty awful.

I'm not saying he's a genius, I'm saying he knows what to do with the content.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:39 PM on February 10, 2010

Well, I know ZQ is like 6'5"

And both Zachary Levi and Adam Baldwin of 'Chuck' are 6'4", though Levi doesn't present that way. What's up with all of the tall men? (Not that it's a bad thing...)
posted by vhsiv at 3:31 PM on February 10, 2010

How is Bizzaro Land this time of year?

No, really. I don't know whether you still watch Heroes -- I don't know why you would still watch Heroes, or why I do -- but the show is more coherent and less cringeworthy now than it has been the last two seasons. I want you to understand that this is NOT saying much, but that it has helped (if this constitutes helping?) the show to go from laugh-out-loud Ed Wood-like terribleness to a steady level of mediocre, zero-stakes storytelling.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:01 PM on February 10, 2010 [1 favorite]

Loeb was still around for the crappy second season, Fuller wasn't. I think that says a lot.

(I have no available data beyond this point, though I am informed that it actually somehow managed to get worse)
posted by Artw at 4:09 PM on February 10, 2010

I don't consider myself a huge Heroes fans but I guess I'll have to cop to still currently watching. I've watched most of the web spin off series, and I've read through the first collected volume of Heroes webcomic. I think the show is entertaining but beyond that I don't put much thought because the stupid in that show too much.
Okay, so the first season was pretty good. Second, season started to suck pretty quickly. Third season continued to suck and the latest (fourth) is pretty meh.

Loeb was still around for the crappy second season, Fuller wasn't. I think that says a lot.

Loeb was fired at the beginning of the second season and Fuller was brought back and wrote for the shitty third season. I think that says a lot. We can all waffle on whether Loeb and Fuller are good writers, or whether they made significant contributions to the suckiness/greatness of Heroes, but the obvious is that the big heads fucked with what was working.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
posted by P.o.B. at 7:48 PM on February 10, 2010

Oh, and I'll admit the show is very whitewashed at this point but if you include all the characters that have been included in the Heroes storyline, I think it's hard to say the show is that racist. I think the whitewashing is side effect of the shitty writing, just like all the other problems with the show.
posted by P.o.B. at 7:55 PM on February 10, 2010