Rest in peace Andrew J. Koenig.
February 26, 2010 8:03 AM Subscribe
Actor Andrew J. Koenig was found dead in Vancouver yesterday. Andrew, who changed his name from Josh Koenig midway through his
acting career, was best known for his role as Richard "Boner" Stabone on
Growing Pains.
Koenig's family and friends issued numerous pleas to the public to help find him while he was missing, and eventually discovered his body in Vancouver's Stanley Park. The apparent victim of suicide, his parents issued a heartwrenching statement asking that family members of depressed individuals not ignore the issue. Walter Koenig, his father, is best known for his role as Chekov on the original Star Trek series. His sister, Danielle Koenig is a comedian, as is his brother-in-law, Jimmy Pardo.
Koenig worked for Pardo's popular comedy podcast, Never Not Funny, on which his sister often appeared. Working behind the cameras of the podcast, Koenig was often a humorous foil to Pardo as well as guests such as Pardo's former boss on the Tonight Show, Conan O'Brien, all of whom joked lovingly about his "gorgeous head of hair".
Koenig ran the video comedy website Monkey Go Lucky, and recently made a cameo appearance as Boner on Family Guy. Koenig was also a passionate humanitarian, especially in regards to freedom for the people of Burma. Koenig released a video of his arrest at the 2007 Tournament of Roses Parade where he marched in the parade carrying a sign reading "China: Free Burma".
Rest in peace, Andrew.
Koenig's family and friends issued numerous pleas to the public to help find him while he was missing, and eventually discovered his body in Vancouver's Stanley Park. The apparent victim of suicide, his parents issued a heartwrenching statement asking that family members of depressed individuals not ignore the issue. Walter Koenig, his father, is best known for his role as Chekov on the original Star Trek series. His sister, Danielle Koenig is a comedian, as is his brother-in-law, Jimmy Pardo.
Koenig worked for Pardo's popular comedy podcast, Never Not Funny, on which his sister often appeared. Working behind the cameras of the podcast, Koenig was often a humorous foil to Pardo as well as guests such as Pardo's former boss on the Tonight Show, Conan O'Brien, all of whom joked lovingly about his "gorgeous head of hair".
Koenig ran the video comedy website Monkey Go Lucky, and recently made a cameo appearance as Boner on Family Guy. Koenig was also a passionate humanitarian, especially in regards to freedom for the people of Burma. Koenig released a video of his arrest at the 2007 Tournament of Roses Parade where he marched in the parade carrying a sign reading "China: Free Burma".
Rest in peace, Andrew.
.
posted by HumanComplex at 8:08 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by HumanComplex at 8:08 AM on February 26, 2010
Even though the other thread is still open, I hope this post stays, because it's a well done obit post.
posted by Ruki at 8:14 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by Ruki at 8:14 AM on February 26, 2010
I'm sorry to hear this. He seems to have been such a good person who had quite a lot going for him. Isn't it strange how despair colours everything and makes life seem not living despite whatever the tally may be on the "positives" side of the balance sheet.
posted by orange swan at 8:17 AM on February 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 8:17 AM on February 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
:(
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 8:18 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 8:18 AM on February 26, 2010
Even though the other thread is still open, I hope this post stays, because it's a well done obit post.
Agreed.
posted by The Deej at 8:24 AM on February 26, 2010
Agreed.
posted by The Deej at 8:24 AM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 8:26 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by GameDesignerBen at 8:26 AM on February 26, 2010
Also, thanks SassHat for putting this together. If this does get deleted, maybe you can paste it into the other thread.
RIP Andrew.
posted by The Deej at 8:27 AM on February 26, 2010
RIP Andrew.
posted by The Deej at 8:27 AM on February 26, 2010
he sounds like he was the anti-kirk cameron.
.
posted by dunkadunc at 8:28 AM on February 26, 2010 [8 favorites]
.
posted by dunkadunc at 8:28 AM on February 26, 2010 [8 favorites]
.
A good man.
... and we are all just that much poorer for his loss.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 8:29 AM on February 26, 2010
A good man.
... and we are all just that much poorer for his loss.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 8:29 AM on February 26, 2010
I remember getting a little teary at the Growing Pains when Mike and Boner say goodbye.
This sucks.
posted by Pax at 8:35 AM on February 26, 2010
This sucks.
posted by Pax at 8:35 AM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by ursus_comiter at 8:42 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by ursus_comiter at 8:42 AM on February 26, 2010
I was so sad to hear this. My main association with him was Never Not Funny, and until he disappeared I had no idea who his father was or that he had been on Growing Pains (never watched the show).
I can't imagine what the next episode of NNF will be like. My condolences to that whole crew and (of course) his family.
posted by brundlefly at 8:48 AM on February 26, 2010
I can't imagine what the next episode of NNF will be like. My condolences to that whole crew and (of course) his family.
posted by brundlefly at 8:48 AM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by Four-Eyed Girl at 8:49 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by Four-Eyed Girl at 8:49 AM on February 26, 2010
When it was still a missing person's story, I tried to remember what "Boner" looked like and couldn't quite visualize him -- and then saw a recent photo of Andrew and there he was -- it was the nose, I think.
I try not to carry a tally of these things in my head, but can't seem to help it. Now when I think of that character, there's a mental footnote attached "eventually commits suicide". Poor guy. I hope there was a lot of joy before the depression.
.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:50 AM on February 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
I try not to carry a tally of these things in my head, but can't seem to help it. Now when I think of that character, there's a mental footnote attached "eventually commits suicide". Poor guy. I hope there was a lot of joy before the depression.
.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:50 AM on February 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
I was really hoping this story wouldn't end this way.
posted by MrMoonPie at 8:58 AM on February 26, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by MrMoonPie at 8:58 AM on February 26, 2010 [3 favorites]
.
And damn, his Dad was with the group that found his body. How gut wrenching.
posted by ericb at 9:00 AM on February 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
And damn, his Dad was with the group that found his body. How gut wrenching.
posted by ericb at 9:00 AM on February 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
.
I've experienced the suicide of my brother. The absolute hell of emotions that this brings for anybody is more than I can even describe. Rest in peace, Andrew, and I pray to whatever higher power there is to allow his family to have some comfort and learn to move on. God this is so hard.
posted by deacon_blues at 9:00 AM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
I've experienced the suicide of my brother. The absolute hell of emotions that this brings for anybody is more than I can even describe. Rest in peace, Andrew, and I pray to whatever higher power there is to allow his family to have some comfort and learn to move on. God this is so hard.
posted by deacon_blues at 9:00 AM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
That video of his parents is just awful. I can't imagine what that must be like... and then, instead of being able to really grieve privately, which is probably what you want to do at that moment - instead, you've got a bunch of cameras in front of you and you're expected to make a statement. They did a great job considering the circumstances, but I could probably go the rest of eternity without ever having to watch that again.
posted by kbanas at 9:03 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by kbanas at 9:03 AM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:05 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:05 AM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 9:09 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 9:09 AM on February 26, 2010
... and then, instead of being able to really grieve privately, which is probably what you want to do at that moment - instead, you've got a bunch of cameras in front of you and you're expected to make a statement.
To which I must respectfully ask, Why Is This? I certainly don't expect a statement.
.
posted by philip-random at 9:13 AM on February 26, 2010
To which I must respectfully ask, Why Is This? I certainly don't expect a statement.
.
posted by philip-random at 9:13 AM on February 26, 2010
.
The Walter Koenig statement is heartbreaking.
I was telling my wife about this last night. She asked a good question: "How did they ever get the name 'Boner' past the censors?"
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 9:19 AM on February 26, 2010
The Walter Koenig statement is heartbreaking.
I was telling my wife about this last night. She asked a good question: "How did they ever get the name 'Boner' past the censors?"
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 9:19 AM on February 26, 2010
I get the impression that Andrew Koenig's parents decided to make the statement because they felt strongly that they wanted to speak to other depressed people and their families and friends.
posted by amtho at 9:21 AM on February 26, 2010 [11 favorites]
posted by amtho at 9:21 AM on February 26, 2010 [11 favorites]
I briefly chatted (twittered?) with him on Twitter once - pointed him to Metafilter on one of the Kirk Cameron threads he was mentioned on a few months back. He thanked me and just seemed like a very down-to-earth guy who wasn't afraid to fight for causes he believed in.
.
posted by Twicketface at 9:26 AM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by Twicketface at 9:26 AM on February 26, 2010
Most definitely a loss. I strangely remember him most from his brief bit as the Joker in the video short Batman: Dead End. The public statement thing is absolute bullshit.
posted by snap_dragon at 9:27 AM on February 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by snap_dragon at 9:27 AM on February 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
This defiantely shows you the power of depression. His parents/friends obviously loved him and were there for him and it still didn't help. So sad that he couldn't find a purpose or even hold on to that. It was apparent that he was a very nice guy. Perhaps the whole "star as a kid and couldn't really find anything big after that" got to him? No one will know I guess. I just hope that something good can come of this. Perhaps Walter or the family/friends will do some sort of permanent outreach to others who need it?
Depression sucks, especially for those who just can't find the right combo cure. I know if I didn't have my son, I don't know what I would be doing. It gets really old after a while. But at least I can look at him and say that I have to continue on for his sake.
Can't have my husband remarry and install a stripper pole in my house. Ugh. The horror.
posted by stormpooper at 9:27 AM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
Depression sucks, especially for those who just can't find the right combo cure. I know if I didn't have my son, I don't know what I would be doing. It gets really old after a while. But at least I can look at him and say that I have to continue on for his sake.
Can't have my husband remarry and install a stripper pole in my house. Ugh. The horror.
posted by stormpooper at 9:27 AM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
To which I must respectfully ask, Why Is This? I certainly don't expect a statement.
Just a guess (and how it struck me) was that it was more honoring to Andrew for Walter to make the announcement himself rather than leave it to someone else. I felt it was a brave thing to do. As gut-wrenching as it was, and as difficult as it must have been for him to do it, I'm glad I heard it from Walter.
posted by The Deej at 9:27 AM on February 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
Just a guess (and how it struck me) was that it was more honoring to Andrew for Walter to make the announcement himself rather than leave it to someone else. I felt it was a brave thing to do. As gut-wrenching as it was, and as difficult as it must have been for him to do it, I'm glad I heard it from Walter.
posted by The Deej at 9:27 AM on February 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
.
posted by GrammarMoses at 9:31 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by GrammarMoses at 9:31 AM on February 26, 2010
This is heartbreaking - I'm another person who mostly knows him through his NNF work, and he seemed like such a bright, lovely, decent guy. I am so impressed by the dignity and grace the family have shown through the search and announcing the discovery of Andrew's body, down to being capable of even thinking of other people in similar situations right as it has been happening, and I hope that remarkable strength allows them to get through the very, very difficult time ahead.
posted by carbide at 9:40 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by carbide at 9:40 AM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:44 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:44 AM on February 26, 2010
The only "victims" of suicide are the people left behind. Sorry. Cannot mourn suicides.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 9:44 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by ethnomethodologist at 9:44 AM on February 26, 2010
The only "victims" of suicide are the people left behind. Sorry. Cannot mourn suicides.
But you had to shit in the obit thread? Damn.
Sorry about your depression Andrew. And sorry, Koenig family, for your loss.
.
posted by hippybear at 9:47 AM on February 26, 2010 [28 favorites]
But you had to shit in the obit thread? Damn.
Sorry about your depression Andrew. And sorry, Koenig family, for your loss.
.
posted by hippybear at 9:47 AM on February 26, 2010 [28 favorites]
Ethnomethodologist, if you truly believed that than you would realize those left behind usually cared deeply for those who took their own lives and to "not mourn" is a cop out for those who haven't experienced the suicide of somebody they love.
posted by deacon_blues at 9:49 AM on February 26, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by deacon_blues at 9:49 AM on February 26, 2010 [7 favorites]
.
I feel so bad for his parents. The picture that I saw of his dad, taken outside before they found out, was one of the saddest things I've recently seen.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:51 AM on February 26, 2010
I feel so bad for his parents. The picture that I saw of his dad, taken outside before they found out, was one of the saddest things I've recently seen.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:51 AM on February 26, 2010
The only "victims" of suicide are the people left behind. Sorry. Cannot mourn suicides.
Maybe it'd be best to respect the feelings of the people left behind and just keep that to yourself, then.
posted by EarBucket at 9:52 AM on February 26, 2010 [20 favorites]
Maybe it'd be best to respect the feelings of the people left behind and just keep that to yourself, then.
posted by EarBucket at 9:52 AM on February 26, 2010 [20 favorites]
The only "victims" of suicide are the people left behind. Sorry. Cannot mourn suicides.
Yeah! I mean all that sadness is just in their head. Why don't they just get over it. HAMBURGER
I can't tell you how much I hate that tired attitude! It really pushes those with mental issues to hide them instead of opening up and maybe finding the help they need.
posted by leetheflea at 9:54 AM on February 26, 2010 [17 favorites]
Yeah! I mean all that sadness is just in their head. Why don't they just get over it. HAMBURGER
I can't tell you how much I hate that tired attitude! It really pushes those with mental issues to hide them instead of opening up and maybe finding the help they need.
posted by leetheflea at 9:54 AM on February 26, 2010 [17 favorites]
It is sad, and though his family is obviously grieving, if their statement reaches even one person who might be in the same place as Andrew was, then it's worth it. After reading this past week about all of Andrew's accomplishments and what he did with his life post-Growing Pains make this even sadder.
Depression, the great thief.
RIP, Andrew.
posted by cmgonzalez at 9:54 AM on February 26, 2010
Depression, the great thief.
RIP, Andrew.
posted by cmgonzalez at 9:54 AM on February 26, 2010
Cannot mourn suicides.
There's a big difference between not mourning and announcing your non-mourning. I'd really suggest that people who want to fight about this go to MetaTalk and everyone else just not engage if you're not feeling like fighting.
posted by jessamyn at 10:03 AM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
There's a big difference between not mourning and announcing your non-mourning. I'd really suggest that people who want to fight about this go to MetaTalk and everyone else just not engage if you're not feeling like fighting.
posted by jessamyn at 10:03 AM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
The only "victims" of suicide are the people left behind. Sorry. Cannot mourn suicides.
Go stand outside until we're done, then.
posted by General Tonic at 10:06 AM on February 26, 2010 [18 favorites]
Go stand outside until we're done, then.
posted by General Tonic at 10:06 AM on February 26, 2010 [18 favorites]
Man, Walter Koenig. The worst thing, most likely, that's ever happened to him and will ever happen to him, and he goes outside and tries to use it to help people. Condolences and admiration both.
posted by Shepherd at 10:10 AM on February 26, 2010 [29 favorites]
posted by Shepherd at 10:10 AM on February 26, 2010 [29 favorites]
Just a guess (and how it struck me) was that it was more honoring to Andrew for Walter to make the announcement himself rather than leave it to someone else.
This is true; as well, the sudden death of a minor celebrity who is the offspring of another minor celebrity in a city where world media attention is focussed right now has all the makings of an "entertainment news" clusterfuck. Better that his bereaved father tells the world than some toothy correspondent on Entertainment Tonight.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:11 AM on February 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is true; as well, the sudden death of a minor celebrity who is the offspring of another minor celebrity in a city where world media attention is focussed right now has all the makings of an "entertainment news" clusterfuck. Better that his bereaved father tells the world than some toothy correspondent on Entertainment Tonight.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:11 AM on February 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
Man, Walter Koenig. The worst thing, most likely, that's ever happened to him and will ever happen to him, and he goes outside and tries to use it to help people. Condolences and admiration both.
I think it was also an incredibly loving gesture towards his son. Not ashamed of his son's last act, or the mental illness that claimed his life--and sacrificing his own privacy and comfort to try to give his son's death a little dignity and meaning.
posted by availablelight at 10:30 AM on February 26, 2010 [23 favorites]
I think it was also an incredibly loving gesture towards his son. Not ashamed of his son's last act, or the mental illness that claimed his life--and sacrificing his own privacy and comfort to try to give his son's death a little dignity and meaning.
posted by availablelight at 10:30 AM on February 26, 2010 [23 favorites]
I saw perform once, at a comedy theater I used to hang around at. In the sketch, he was playing Al Pacino, I think, and someone else was playing "Boner" maybe, and Andrew kept yelling at him "BONE-A!" in an Al Pacino voice, like in "Scent of a Woman."
That sounds horribly unfunny, right, on paper? Here's the thing: it was hilarious. Years later I still think about it and laugh.
RIP Andrew.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:33 AM on February 26, 2010
That sounds horribly unfunny, right, on paper? Here's the thing: it was hilarious. Years later I still think about it and laugh.
RIP Andrew.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:33 AM on February 26, 2010
in re: to "Boner" and "the censors:" I suspect the censors belonged to the generation for which "boner" just meant "mistake."
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:35 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:35 AM on February 26, 2010
AST thread. It's gone down a few times due to server overload (NNF is a big favorite with the AST crowd), so I didn't include this in the post, but it seems to be working ok now.
posted by SassHat at 10:36 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by SassHat at 10:36 AM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:53 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:53 AM on February 26, 2010
I 2nd the shock of the censors but more so of Kirk Cameron letting the word "Boner" come out of his mouth.
posted by stormpooper at 11:08 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by stormpooper at 11:08 AM on February 26, 2010
AST thread. It's gone down a few times due to server overload (NNF is a big favorite with the AST crowd), so I didn't include this in the post, but it seems to be working ok now.
The Pardcast.com thread for the "Important Announcement" is another place to leave memories of Andrew.
posted by The Deej at 11:13 AM on February 26, 2010
The Pardcast.com thread for the "Important Announcement" is another place to leave memories of Andrew.
posted by The Deej at 11:13 AM on February 26, 2010
indeed it's sad.
re: 'why did his parents make a statement?' - aside from the other reasons listed, his parents communicated to the public that he was missing, they asked for the public's help in finding him, and people responded. FWIW I think some kind of public statement would not have been inappropriate for these reasons.
posted by thermonuclear.jive.turkey at 11:21 AM on February 26, 2010
re: 'why did his parents make a statement?' - aside from the other reasons listed, his parents communicated to the public that he was missing, they asked for the public's help in finding him, and people responded. FWIW I think some kind of public statement would not have been inappropriate for these reasons.
posted by thermonuclear.jive.turkey at 11:21 AM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 11:22 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 11:22 AM on February 26, 2010
For some reason, this all just makes me want to punch Kirk Cameron. Right in the face. I can't say why.
.
posted by jabberjaw at 11:30 AM on February 26, 2010 [6 favorites]
.
posted by jabberjaw at 11:30 AM on February 26, 2010 [6 favorites]
I had posted this in the old thread this morning, but since most of the discussion seems to have moved here, I'll say it again.
Jesus, his parents and friends found the body themselves? I'm not sure why that adds one more layer of horrible to this ending for me, but it does.
.
posted by aclevername at 11:36 AM on February 26, 2010
Jesus, his parents and friends found the body themselves? I'm not sure why that adds one more layer of horrible to this ending for me, but it does.
.
posted by aclevername at 11:36 AM on February 26, 2010
For some reason, this all just makes me want to punch Kirk Cameron. Right in the face. I can't say why.
I can say why. You've been looking for an excuse for years.
posted by jeremy b at 11:36 AM on February 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
I can say why. You've been looking for an excuse for years.
posted by jeremy b at 11:36 AM on February 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
.
posted by porn in the woods at 11:44 AM on February 26, 2010
posted by porn in the woods at 11:44 AM on February 26, 2010
.
I've been in that deep, dark, endless place - not too long ago, even. I was lucky; I got pulled back from the edge and things are improving. Maybe Andrew was too far over the edge to be pulled back; I hope he rests in peace. My heart aches for his parents.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 12:16 PM on February 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
I've been in that deep, dark, endless place - not too long ago, even. I was lucky; I got pulled back from the edge and things are improving. Maybe Andrew was too far over the edge to be pulled back; I hope he rests in peace. My heart aches for his parents.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 12:16 PM on February 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
Can't have my husband remarry and install a stripper pole in my house. Ugh. The horror.
A stripper owned our house before the people we bought it from. No pole, though.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:32 PM on February 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
I guess my feeling with suicide due to depression, and I've said this before, is that for me it helps to think of depression as a potentially fatal illness, like cancer, but the end comes, not with metastasizing cells, but with a gun or a rope or in water or with a fall. I've had a friend kill himself after a long struggle with depression, and I would never, ever blame him for that. The disease killed him, and I couldn't blame him for that any more than I could blame my grandfather for the cancer that killed him.
And here's the really important thing to remember about mental illness -- because it's your brain that's sick, it's not something you can really just reason yourself out of, or think away. The brain is terrible intelligent in this way. If you're depressed and you start feeling the compulsion to end it, your brain is going to come up with all sorts of reasons that sound perfectly logical -- even necessary -- for suicide. Yes, it's the survivors who deal with the pain and the mess left behind, but that's true with all fatal illnesses, and it doesn't help them to compuound their pain by heaping shame upon the loved one who died.
I was not familiar with Andrew, but, as a boy, I really responded to Walter's performance as Chekhov, and have always really liked him as an actor and, to the extent that I have seen him away from the screen, as a person. It's heartbreaking to see him in so much pain, and I must commend him on the exceptional courage it took to go public with that pain to ask that people who are depressed seek help, and that people who know somebody who is depressed extend a hand. Suicide is the 11th leading cause of death in America, and untrested depression is the leading cause of suicide.
Here is an online list of suicide hotlines, and here's a list of resources for people suffering depression. Even if you don't have insurance, it is possible to get treated via a free or low-cost clinic -- here is an online clinic finder.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:36 PM on February 26, 2010 [65 favorites]
And here's the really important thing to remember about mental illness -- because it's your brain that's sick, it's not something you can really just reason yourself out of, or think away. The brain is terrible intelligent in this way. If you're depressed and you start feeling the compulsion to end it, your brain is going to come up with all sorts of reasons that sound perfectly logical -- even necessary -- for suicide. Yes, it's the survivors who deal with the pain and the mess left behind, but that's true with all fatal illnesses, and it doesn't help them to compuound their pain by heaping shame upon the loved one who died.
I was not familiar with Andrew, but, as a boy, I really responded to Walter's performance as Chekhov, and have always really liked him as an actor and, to the extent that I have seen him away from the screen, as a person. It's heartbreaking to see him in so much pain, and I must commend him on the exceptional courage it took to go public with that pain to ask that people who are depressed seek help, and that people who know somebody who is depressed extend a hand. Suicide is the 11th leading cause of death in America, and untrested depression is the leading cause of suicide.
Here is an online list of suicide hotlines, and here's a list of resources for people suffering depression. Even if you don't have insurance, it is possible to get treated via a free or low-cost clinic -- here is an online clinic finder.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:36 PM on February 26, 2010 [65 favorites]
I look forward to the day when all the pain of this subsides and Jimmy and the gang at "Never Not Funny" are able to make jokes about the past two weeks (and they will, because that's how comedians are able to release the pressure valve on their hurting) and that we can all laugh at the pain of it all, because then Andrew will be at rest.
posted by ColdChef at 12:39 PM on February 26, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by ColdChef at 12:39 PM on February 26, 2010 [7 favorites]
I guess my feeling with suicide due to depression, and I've said this before, is that for me it helps to think of depression as a potentially fatal illness, like cancer
In fact, this is how my girlfriend, a cancer survivor, and myself, a depression survivor, routinely frame our discussions about our respective situations. They're not the same by any stretch, but there are some commonalities.
My best friend killed himself just under a year ago. Thus far, it hasn't stopped sucking. Presumably like Andrew, he had a network of loving friends and family; for my friend, the thought that anyone could love him was a source of pain, not pleasure. The mind in torment is a contorted and mysterious thing, difficult to untangle, and all the ends seem like painful ones.
My heart is heavy for Walter Koenig and his family. I can't say "waste", because though I don't know much about Andrew it seems like he brought a lot of joy and laughter to many, but it is certainly a loss.
posted by Errant at 1:02 PM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
In fact, this is how my girlfriend, a cancer survivor, and myself, a depression survivor, routinely frame our discussions about our respective situations. They're not the same by any stretch, but there are some commonalities.
My best friend killed himself just under a year ago. Thus far, it hasn't stopped sucking. Presumably like Andrew, he had a network of loving friends and family; for my friend, the thought that anyone could love him was a source of pain, not pleasure. The mind in torment is a contorted and mysterious thing, difficult to untangle, and all the ends seem like painful ones.
My heart is heavy for Walter Koenig and his family. I can't say "waste", because though I don't know much about Andrew it seems like he brought a lot of joy and laughter to many, but it is certainly a loss.
posted by Errant at 1:02 PM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:04 PM on February 26, 2010
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:04 PM on February 26, 2010
A good man who will be missed.
posted by Doug Stewart at 1:35 PM on February 26, 2010
posted by Doug Stewart at 1:35 PM on February 26, 2010
"If you know or are one of those people who feel like you can't handle it any more, if you can learn anything from this, it is that there are people out there who care. You may not think so, and ultimately it may not be enough, but there are people that care. Before you make that final decision, check it out again, talk to somebody," Koenig said."
Way to reach out in the midst of unfathomable suffering and use the spotlight to try and salvage something positive. Deep respect.
posted by Manjusri at 1:45 PM on February 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
Way to reach out in the midst of unfathomable suffering and use the spotlight to try and salvage something positive. Deep respect.
posted by Manjusri at 1:45 PM on February 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
Rest in peace, Andrew Koenig
Thank you and bless you, Walter Koenig
posted by toodleydoodley at 2:02 PM on February 26, 2010
Thank you and bless you, Walter Koenig
posted by toodleydoodley at 2:02 PM on February 26, 2010
I've had a friend kill himself after a long struggle with depression, and I would never, ever blame him for that. The disease killed him, and I couldn't blame him for that any more than I could blame my grandfather for the cancer that killed him.
Well said. My best friend killed himself two years ago (nearly to the day in fact) after pretty well lifelong untreated depression and I still think of him every single day and wonder if it could have ended differently if I'd done...something, but I am not angry with him (anymore), and I think I understand. I have so much respect for Walter Koenig and his wife for having the strength to make the statement they did. Depression is always a potentially fatal illness.
posted by biscotti at 2:15 PM on February 26, 2010
Well said. My best friend killed himself two years ago (nearly to the day in fact) after pretty well lifelong untreated depression and I still think of him every single day and wonder if it could have ended differently if I'd done...something, but I am not angry with him (anymore), and I think I understand. I have so much respect for Walter Koenig and his wife for having the strength to make the statement they did. Depression is always a potentially fatal illness.
posted by biscotti at 2:15 PM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by evilcolonel at 2:24 PM on February 26, 2010
posted by evilcolonel at 2:24 PM on February 26, 2010
For some reason, this all just makes me want to punch Kirk Cameron. Right in the face. I can't say why.
I can say why. Because from all appearances, Andrew Koenig was an awesome guy, and he was in such a low place that he took his own life. Kirk Cameron is a fucking huckster for a poisonous ideology, and I bet his dumb ass giggles with joy all the way to the bank every day. It's not fucking fair, and that's why I want to punch him too.
posted by DecemberBoy at 2:34 PM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
I can say why. Because from all appearances, Andrew Koenig was an awesome guy, and he was in such a low place that he took his own life. Kirk Cameron is a fucking huckster for a poisonous ideology, and I bet his dumb ass giggles with joy all the way to the bank every day. It's not fucking fair, and that's why I want to punch him too.
posted by DecemberBoy at 2:34 PM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
Kirk Cameron is speaking out about the tragic death of Andrew Koenig, his former Growing Pains costar. “At a time like this, we are all reminded of the briefness of life and the importance of being ready for our eternal destination,” Cameron said in a statement.
posted by ColdChef at 2:35 PM on February 26, 2010
posted by ColdChef at 2:35 PM on February 26, 2010
All I can think about is the smile that used to cross Boner's face on Growing Pains and how genuine and happy it was. I remember that smile despite not having seen an episode of Growing Pains in over a decade.
.
posted by NationalKato at 2:44 PM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by NationalKato at 2:44 PM on February 26, 2010
Grief can be every bit as much an all-consuming force as depression. It can be hard to see a larger world outside of it. That the Koenigs are able to reach out like that at this moment is unbelievably moving to me. I hope Walter Koenig's statement helps somebody.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:28 PM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:28 PM on February 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
.
Am I the only one who noticed the OP said that Andrew J. Koenig played Boner on Family Guy instead of Growing Pains??
posted by asciident at 3:31 PM on February 26, 2010
Am I the only one who noticed the OP said that Andrew J. Koenig played Boner on Family Guy instead of Growing Pains??
posted by asciident at 3:31 PM on February 26, 2010
.
Speaking as somebody with some first-hand experience of clinical depression, I wonder to what extent being in an Olympic city at the time of all the festivities might have contributed to this - when everybody else seems to be having so much fun, and with athletes at the top of their game apparently doing so well for themselves, I can see how that could feed back into a loop of alienation, inability to connect & general hopelessness for oneself and one's future.
Sadly, he & his friends probably specifically organised the trip as something fun & cheering-up for him to do.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:31 PM on February 26, 2010 [3 favorites]
Speaking as somebody with some first-hand experience of clinical depression, I wonder to what extent being in an Olympic city at the time of all the festivities might have contributed to this - when everybody else seems to be having so much fun, and with athletes at the top of their game apparently doing so well for themselves, I can see how that could feed back into a loop of alienation, inability to connect & general hopelessness for oneself and one's future.
Sadly, he & his friends probably specifically organised the trip as something fun & cheering-up for him to do.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:31 PM on February 26, 2010 [3 favorites]
(Oh, nevermind. A cameo. It just wasn't listed on his IMDb, so I was thrown! Sorry!)
posted by asciident at 3:34 PM on February 26, 2010
posted by asciident at 3:34 PM on February 26, 2010
I'm glad someone did a nice post. I've been following this, as a NNF fan and worrying more than I reasonably should since I have no connection to him or his family. It tears me up. He had a lot of passion and talent. I hate to see this happen to him and his circle.
Farewell.
posted by chairface at 3:49 PM on February 26, 2010
Farewell.
posted by chairface at 3:49 PM on February 26, 2010
I never knew anything about the man until he went missing, but over the past couple of days, learning about him, and watching some of his work, I wish I would've known about him sooner.
.
posted by KGMoney at 4:13 PM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by KGMoney at 4:13 PM on February 26, 2010
I wonder to what extent being in an Olympic city at the time of all the festivities might have contributed to this
The landlord and neighbors previously confirmed that Andrew moved out of his apartment, and sold or gave away all of his belongings before leaving for Vancouver. In retrospect, he must've known for days or even weeks that he felt committed to this decision. Tragic that he did not take greater comfort in spending time with old friends in the town he used to call home. I hope that for a while their presence and the party atmosphere served to distract a little from thoughts of all that inner turmoil. My condolences to all. Family. Friends. And most of all for the man who felt such suffering. May he rest in peace in now.
.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 4:14 PM on February 26, 2010
The landlord and neighbors previously confirmed that Andrew moved out of his apartment, and sold or gave away all of his belongings before leaving for Vancouver. In retrospect, he must've known for days or even weeks that he felt committed to this decision. Tragic that he did not take greater comfort in spending time with old friends in the town he used to call home. I hope that for a while their presence and the party atmosphere served to distract a little from thoughts of all that inner turmoil. My condolences to all. Family. Friends. And most of all for the man who felt such suffering. May he rest in peace in now.
.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 4:14 PM on February 26, 2010
Depression is not a logical thing.
I have been that depressed before. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
Despite how this turned out, I hope this young man found some peace. And I hope his family can find some peace as well.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:26 PM on February 26, 2010
I have been that depressed before. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
Despite how this turned out, I hope this young man found some peace. And I hope his family can find some peace as well.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:26 PM on February 26, 2010
.
posted by OolooKitty at 4:29 PM on February 26, 2010
posted by OolooKitty at 4:29 PM on February 26, 2010
I know from experience how news like that hits you in the gut; for Walter it's a million times worse as it's his son.
. for Andrew;
. for Walter and his family
posted by bwg at 4:39 PM on February 26, 2010
. for Andrew;
. for Walter and his family
posted by bwg at 4:39 PM on February 26, 2010
for me it helps to think of depression as a potentially fatal illness, like cancer, but the end comes, not with metastasizing cells, but with a gun or a rope or in water or with a fall. I've had a friend kill himself after a long struggle with depression, and I would never, ever blame him for that. The disease killed him, and I couldn't blame him for that any more than I could blame my grandfather for the cancer that killed him.
Thank you for stating this so clearly, AZ. This is why those who have died from depression deserve our sympathy just as much as those who have lost their battles with cancer or heart disease or diabetes. It is a disease, and as another sufferer, I am so thankful and filled with respect for the Koenig family for their statement.
Maybe if more loved ones of suicide victims follow their brave example, the world at large can start to see depression and other mental illnesses as the debilitating diseases that they are, and we can get people the help they need and deserve.
Also, I think that if people are candid about suicide, it can help to absolve those left behind of what can be terrible guilt. As much as the Koenigs clearly loved their son, and probably did everything they could think of to save him, his death is not their fault. Is it the fault of the family and loved ones if a cancer patient succumbs to their illness? Of course not. It's just so important to start to get rid of the shame associated with suicide, so that we can make things better for everyone it touches.
.
posted by Fui Non Sum at 5:50 PM on February 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
Thank you for stating this so clearly, AZ. This is why those who have died from depression deserve our sympathy just as much as those who have lost their battles with cancer or heart disease or diabetes. It is a disease, and as another sufferer, I am so thankful and filled with respect for the Koenig family for their statement.
Maybe if more loved ones of suicide victims follow their brave example, the world at large can start to see depression and other mental illnesses as the debilitating diseases that they are, and we can get people the help they need and deserve.
Also, I think that if people are candid about suicide, it can help to absolve those left behind of what can be terrible guilt. As much as the Koenigs clearly loved their son, and probably did everything they could think of to save him, his death is not their fault. Is it the fault of the family and loved ones if a cancer patient succumbs to their illness? Of course not. It's just so important to start to get rid of the shame associated with suicide, so that we can make things better for everyone it touches.
.
posted by Fui Non Sum at 5:50 PM on February 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
.
posted by spinifex23 at 5:52 PM on February 26, 2010
posted by spinifex23 at 5:52 PM on February 26, 2010
I keep trying to come up with a way to express how I feel about this. There is something so huge, so poignant, so vital that I want to express about this accursed state of mind that it has paralyzed me with its import and rendered me voiceless. You see, I have struggled with this same monster all of my life. The monster has come close to winning on numerous occasions - sometimes so close that one foot slips over the edge of that cliff and there is no way to explain how I never simply went over.
Andrew couldnt make it. The monster got him. I hate that fucking monster. I hate it worse than cancer and Republicans and war and racism and homophobia and torture and cruelty combined and multiplied by a factor of n to the infinite power. I fight that monster every single day, and nothing - nothing - is more terrifying than the feeling that you are being slowly, inexorably pushed back toward that edge and though the last thing you want to do is go over, you are powerless to stop it and you are forced to acknowledge that sickening, secret, pathetic glimmer of hope that this time you won't be able to push back, that this time you will finally get the peace you have been seeking for so long.
I wish nobody the pain of this. Everyone is a victim of suicide - both depressed person and every single person who loves them. I am only glad that Andrew Koenig was nestled in the heart of a group of friends and family and colleagues who were devoted to him, who recognized his beauty, and who loved him and will go on loving him and who will carry his horrifying experience forward to try to help others who are struggling against that faceless, empty monster, full of teeth and howling despair and crushing certainty that things will never, ever be any better - that these, in fact, are the good times and what lies ahead will only get worse.
All I can think of now is the same thing I think when I hear about any depressive suicide: My heart-wrenching pity and helpless, yearning cameraderie. I feel myself wanting to reach out to him as he wandered through those trees in search of the perfect spot in which to end his life, to drag him back to the path, kicking and screaming if need be - anything, anything just to keep him alive until the monster could be shoved back far enough to allow him to come away from the precipice. Until the next time. I feel guilty I couldnt help him. I feel guilty that I can't help all the others. I feel guilty, nauseating relief that the same fate has not yet befallen me. Not yet, anyway.
I feel him as though I knew him. In a way, I am him. But the monster got him, and all I can do is wish he could have held on, and that someone, anyone, could have helped him somehow. It's not their fault they couldnt, and it's not his. The monster got him. It's the monster's fault, and that's the solitary reason I am still alive. Because fuck that monster, man. Fuck the monster right in its stupid ear.
I keep trying to come up with a way to express how I feel about this, but for the life of me the words just won't come.
I hope youve found peace at last, Andrew, wherever you may be. I'm so, so sorry.
.
posted by perilous at 9:49 PM on February 26, 2010 [19 favorites]
Andrew couldnt make it. The monster got him. I hate that fucking monster. I hate it worse than cancer and Republicans and war and racism and homophobia and torture and cruelty combined and multiplied by a factor of n to the infinite power. I fight that monster every single day, and nothing - nothing - is more terrifying than the feeling that you are being slowly, inexorably pushed back toward that edge and though the last thing you want to do is go over, you are powerless to stop it and you are forced to acknowledge that sickening, secret, pathetic glimmer of hope that this time you won't be able to push back, that this time you will finally get the peace you have been seeking for so long.
I wish nobody the pain of this. Everyone is a victim of suicide - both depressed person and every single person who loves them. I am only glad that Andrew Koenig was nestled in the heart of a group of friends and family and colleagues who were devoted to him, who recognized his beauty, and who loved him and will go on loving him and who will carry his horrifying experience forward to try to help others who are struggling against that faceless, empty monster, full of teeth and howling despair and crushing certainty that things will never, ever be any better - that these, in fact, are the good times and what lies ahead will only get worse.
All I can think of now is the same thing I think when I hear about any depressive suicide: My heart-wrenching pity and helpless, yearning cameraderie. I feel myself wanting to reach out to him as he wandered through those trees in search of the perfect spot in which to end his life, to drag him back to the path, kicking and screaming if need be - anything, anything just to keep him alive until the monster could be shoved back far enough to allow him to come away from the precipice. Until the next time. I feel guilty I couldnt help him. I feel guilty that I can't help all the others. I feel guilty, nauseating relief that the same fate has not yet befallen me. Not yet, anyway.
I feel him as though I knew him. In a way, I am him. But the monster got him, and all I can do is wish he could have held on, and that someone, anyone, could have helped him somehow. It's not their fault they couldnt, and it's not his. The monster got him. It's the monster's fault, and that's the solitary reason I am still alive. Because fuck that monster, man. Fuck the monster right in its stupid ear.
I keep trying to come up with a way to express how I feel about this, but for the life of me the words just won't come.
I hope youve found peace at last, Andrew, wherever you may be. I'm so, so sorry.
.
posted by perilous at 9:49 PM on February 26, 2010 [19 favorites]
.
Anyone have a link to a video of him performing on Growing Pains? I'd like to see something to job my memory of him. All I can find on YouTube now are news clips about his death.
posted by meadowlark lime at 1:24 AM on February 27, 2010
Anyone have a link to a video of him performing on Growing Pains? I'd like to see something to job my memory of him. All I can find on YouTube now are news clips about his death.
posted by meadowlark lime at 1:24 AM on February 27, 2010
This ABC video has a clip of 'Boner.'
Here's a full episode: Semper Fidelis -- "Mike feels abandoned when Boner joins the Marines after failing his first semester at college."
posted by ericb at 7:20 AM on February 27, 2010
Here's a full episode: Semper Fidelis -- "Mike feels abandoned when Boner joins the Marines after failing his first semester at college."
posted by ericb at 7:20 AM on February 27, 2010
I remember when the daughter of a close friend of the family killed herself and my parents were beside themselves with grief... because they knew it could have been me. A long time ago, it might have been.
I wish it hadn't ended this way for Andrew, I mourn for him, his family and friends. I hope, too, that Walter's words reach out to someone who might still be able to hang onto a lifeline.
.
posted by Wuggie Norple at 7:55 AM on February 27, 2010
I wish it hadn't ended this way for Andrew, I mourn for him, his family and friends. I hope, too, that Walter's words reach out to someone who might still be able to hang onto a lifeline.
.
posted by Wuggie Norple at 7:55 AM on February 27, 2010
When I first saw the recent photo of Andrew online, what struck me was his beautiful, gentle eyes. When his father played Chekov, his eyes had the same dark, gentle quality which Andrew apparently inherited. I did not know this man, yet I cried when I heard what had happened.
May Andrew and his family be at peace.
posted by kinnakeet at 8:40 AM on February 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
May Andrew and his family be at peace.
posted by kinnakeet at 8:40 AM on February 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
In other tragic news: Marie Osmond’s son commits suicide -- "Entertainment Tonight reports teen battled severe depression."
posted by ericb at 12:48 PM on February 27, 2010
posted by ericb at 12:48 PM on February 27, 2010
Pardon the expression, but depression sucks balls. Big, hairy, orangutan balls. That smell like orangutan sweat. And are orange.
RIP Andrew and Michael. Sorry you had to see the worst life had on offer. I hope some of the best was mixed in there somewhere, too.
Be well, families.
posted by Ouisch at 4:22 PM on February 27, 2010
RIP Andrew and Michael. Sorry you had to see the worst life had on offer. I hope some of the best was mixed in there somewhere, too.
Be well, families.
posted by Ouisch at 4:22 PM on February 27, 2010
For some reason, this all just makes me want to punch Kirk Cameron. Right in the face. I can't say why.
Possibly because Cameron used the occasion as an opportunity to push his agenda some more? I'm not into physical violence, but I know I yelled, "Oh, will you just SHUT UP!!" at the computer screen when I read Cameron's statement.
The only "victims" of suicide are the people left behind. Sorry. Cannot mourn suicides.
I can understand this viewpoint — while, of course, also understanding why others would find it callous and offensive. I can understand why people commit suicide. You're just so tired of the pain and you just want it to be over. People always say it's a shame that the suicide couldn't have gotten help, but sometimes there really isn't a solution; medication and therapy aren't of any real help. Some people are born with a predisposition to despair and it's too exhausting a battle to fight for the prescribed threescore and ten. So they want out. And it's their choice, ultimately. Of course it's so horribly hard on those who are left behind, and someone who is prevented from suicide will often live to be glad of it, especially when the depression was situational and short-lived rather than lifelong. This is why we as a society take measures to prevent suicide. But at some level one has to respect that it's what the person wants and that it's sometimes too much to ask of someone to just keep on keeping on.
posted by orange swan at 9:51 AM on February 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
Possibly because Cameron used the occasion as an opportunity to push his agenda some more? I'm not into physical violence, but I know I yelled, "Oh, will you just SHUT UP!!" at the computer screen when I read Cameron's statement.
The only "victims" of suicide are the people left behind. Sorry. Cannot mourn suicides.
I can understand this viewpoint — while, of course, also understanding why others would find it callous and offensive. I can understand why people commit suicide. You're just so tired of the pain and you just want it to be over. People always say it's a shame that the suicide couldn't have gotten help, but sometimes there really isn't a solution; medication and therapy aren't of any real help. Some people are born with a predisposition to despair and it's too exhausting a battle to fight for the prescribed threescore and ten. So they want out. And it's their choice, ultimately. Of course it's so horribly hard on those who are left behind, and someone who is prevented from suicide will often live to be glad of it, especially when the depression was situational and short-lived rather than lifelong. This is why we as a society take measures to prevent suicide. But at some level one has to respect that it's what the person wants and that it's sometimes too much to ask of someone to just keep on keeping on.
posted by orange swan at 9:51 AM on February 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
But at some level one has to respect that it's what the person wants and that it's sometimes too much to ask of someone to just keep on keeping on.
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
Suicide is NEVER what someone wants, any more than someone wants tuberculosis or to have their legs amputated. Depression is a disease. Sometimes - too often - it is a fatal disease. Nobody ever wants a fatal disease.
Nobody ever WANTS to commit suicide. They do it to get away from the disease, from the symptoms, which are unbearable often even for non-suicidal people who suffer from depression. Suicide usually happens because the depressed person is being told by their diseased mind that there is no help, no cure, that there never will be, that nothing and no one can ever can save them, that they will be in agony forever. Depression is a disease in which your mind spends all its time, waking and sleeping, lying to you, whispering the most foul untruths to you in a ceaseless loop. Suicide is what happens when you snap and just run in a blind panic, frenzied and desperate, trying get away from the ceaseless, tormenting echo that nobody can hear but you.
Suicide is not a choice. That is one of the great misconceptions and misunderstandings that people have, and one of the reasons that people who "cannot mourn suicides" feel they have justification in spewing that misguided and incredibly uninformed, insanely harmful viewpoint. It's every bit as bad as "There's nothing wrong with her, she's just lazy. SNAP OUT OF IT." I can't tell you how many times I have heard this in my life. I can't tell you how fucked up and wrong and hurtful and devastating that attitude, that mind-set, is. When you are already clinging to nothing in an effort to stay alive, the last thing you need to hear is that this is all your fault and you could really fix it if you only tried.
Anyone who says shit like that knows exactly zippo about depression, or suicide, or what it is like to be suicidal, and as far as I'm concerned they can go eat a fucking dick. And anyone who believes suicide is a choice - no matter how well-intentioned and understanding they are trying to be - does not really understand as much as they think they do.
For the "I cannot mourn suicides" idiocy I have nothing but contempt. For folks like Orange Swan, who try to understand and be fair and respectful, I extend gratitude and appreciation for the attempt you make, but respectfully I must vehemently disagree. You are wrong. Suicide is not a choice. It's the final crisis, and the fatal manifestation of a horrible disease that too few understand and too many judge.
I'm in the hole today and nowhere near my best form, so I hope that this post isnt too jumbled. I just felt it needed to be said. Sorry for any rambling, and thanks for your indulgence.
posted by perilous at 11:06 AM on February 28, 2010 [9 favorites]
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
Suicide is NEVER what someone wants, any more than someone wants tuberculosis or to have their legs amputated. Depression is a disease. Sometimes - too often - it is a fatal disease. Nobody ever wants a fatal disease.
Nobody ever WANTS to commit suicide. They do it to get away from the disease, from the symptoms, which are unbearable often even for non-suicidal people who suffer from depression. Suicide usually happens because the depressed person is being told by their diseased mind that there is no help, no cure, that there never will be, that nothing and no one can ever can save them, that they will be in agony forever. Depression is a disease in which your mind spends all its time, waking and sleeping, lying to you, whispering the most foul untruths to you in a ceaseless loop. Suicide is what happens when you snap and just run in a blind panic, frenzied and desperate, trying get away from the ceaseless, tormenting echo that nobody can hear but you.
Suicide is not a choice. That is one of the great misconceptions and misunderstandings that people have, and one of the reasons that people who "cannot mourn suicides" feel they have justification in spewing that misguided and incredibly uninformed, insanely harmful viewpoint. It's every bit as bad as "There's nothing wrong with her, she's just lazy. SNAP OUT OF IT." I can't tell you how many times I have heard this in my life. I can't tell you how fucked up and wrong and hurtful and devastating that attitude, that mind-set, is. When you are already clinging to nothing in an effort to stay alive, the last thing you need to hear is that this is all your fault and you could really fix it if you only tried.
Anyone who says shit like that knows exactly zippo about depression, or suicide, or what it is like to be suicidal, and as far as I'm concerned they can go eat a fucking dick. And anyone who believes suicide is a choice - no matter how well-intentioned and understanding they are trying to be - does not really understand as much as they think they do.
For the "I cannot mourn suicides" idiocy I have nothing but contempt. For folks like Orange Swan, who try to understand and be fair and respectful, I extend gratitude and appreciation for the attempt you make, but respectfully I must vehemently disagree. You are wrong. Suicide is not a choice. It's the final crisis, and the fatal manifestation of a horrible disease that too few understand and too many judge.
I'm in the hole today and nowhere near my best form, so I hope that this post isnt too jumbled. I just felt it needed to be said. Sorry for any rambling, and thanks for your indulgence.
posted by perilous at 11:06 AM on February 28, 2010 [9 favorites]
Depression is pain. It is unendurable pain. Suicide feels like the only option to make the pain stop. It's not selfish, any more than someone with a terminal illness opting for euthanasia is selfish.
.
posted by cereselle at 1:29 PM on February 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
.
posted by cereselle at 1:29 PM on February 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
I respectfully disgree, perilous. Not with the part of your comment that takes issue with the "snap out of it" viewpoint, because I agree that's hurtful and just wrong, but with the part that doesn't acknowledge suicide as a valid choice. Yes, people can be too ill to know what they want or even what they're doing. But some aren't. I've read that depressed people (probably those who are functional despite being depressed rather than the ons who are incapacitated by it) actually test as more realistic and rational than people who aren't depressed — I think we homo sapiens underestimate the debt we owe to groundless optimism in keeping us alive and striving and happy.
Terminally ill people who want to euthanize themselves to escape months of suffering are making a choice to commit suicide, and I see that as a reasonable choice under the circumstances. Why can't we allow that physically healthy but desperately unhappy people sometimes want to make the same choice?
It's true that no one wants to commit suicide, per se. But sometimes it really can seem like the best option available.
posted by orange swan at 5:04 PM on February 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
Terminally ill people who want to euthanize themselves to escape months of suffering are making a choice to commit suicide, and I see that as a reasonable choice under the circumstances. Why can't we allow that physically healthy but desperately unhappy people sometimes want to make the same choice?
It's true that no one wants to commit suicide, per se. But sometimes it really can seem like the best option available.
posted by orange swan at 5:04 PM on February 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
If there's anything that could be described as the opposite of "functional," it's "suicide."
You are wrong, and we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
posted by perilous at 6:38 PM on February 28, 2010
You are wrong, and we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
posted by perilous at 6:38 PM on February 28, 2010
Sorry, I'm finding this discussion in horribly bad taste for an obit thread. Can perhaps it either be taken to metatalk, or else someone create a new FPP about the recent psychological findings and theories about depression and suicide?
posted by hippybear at 10:00 AM on March 1, 2010
posted by hippybear at 10:00 AM on March 1, 2010
.
My deepest condolences to Walter Koenig and his family for their loss. They have my admiration and respect for taking the time to turn what must be near-unimaginable grief into a caring plea to those who might need help.
:(
posted by zarq at 10:05 AM on March 1, 2010
My deepest condolences to Walter Koenig and his family for their loss. They have my admiration and respect for taking the time to turn what must be near-unimaginable grief into a caring plea to those who might need help.
:(
posted by zarq at 10:05 AM on March 1, 2010
Sorry, I'm finding this discussion in horribly bad taste for an obit thread. Can perhaps it either be taken to metatalk, or else someone create a new FPP about the recent psychological findings and theories about depression and suicide?
posted by hippybear at 10:00 AM on March 1 [+] [!]
Odd.
posted by perilous at 2:56 PM on March 2, 2010
posted by hippybear at 10:00 AM on March 1 [+] [!]
Odd.
posted by perilous at 2:56 PM on March 2, 2010
You are wrong, and we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
Keep in mind that you're not only telling me I'm wrong, but are also categorically stating that everyone who has comitted suicide or wanted to is wrong. No one's immortal, so a suicide just means you're hastening the day.
I am indulging in double think here, because I certainly not only would never encourage anyone to kill themselves but would consider myself morally obligated to stop anyone from doing so by any means possible. And I know it takes a terrible toll on those left behind. But at the same time, I think... if I see a lot of pain ahead and just do not want to go through it even though I'll probably eventually have better moments, it's not unreasonable to opt out.
posted by orange swan at 6:04 PM on March 3, 2010
Keep in mind that you're not only telling me I'm wrong, but are also categorically stating that everyone who has comitted suicide or wanted to is wrong. No one's immortal, so a suicide just means you're hastening the day.
I am indulging in double think here, because I certainly not only would never encourage anyone to kill themselves but would consider myself morally obligated to stop anyone from doing so by any means possible. And I know it takes a terrible toll on those left behind. But at the same time, I think... if I see a lot of pain ahead and just do not want to go through it even though I'll probably eventually have better moments, it's not unreasonable to opt out.
posted by orange swan at 6:04 PM on March 3, 2010
Check your iTunes if you're a NNF subscriber--there's a new episode just posted. Jimmy and Matt talk about Andrew for about 25 minutes, and then play a bunch of clips from the show that feature Andrew. It's moving and rambling and heartfelt, and even a little funny. It's good to hear their voices.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:22 PM on March 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:22 PM on March 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Suicide is NEVER what someone wants, any more than someone wants tuberculosis or to have their legs amputated.
Absolutely incorrect. There are people who quite rationally make the decision that they'll decide when to go, that they do not want to leave it up to fate. Cost / benefit calculations based on pretty rational analysis of what is still in store for them if they choose to stick around.
Me, I have known for a long time (in a very calm and rational, and not depressed way) that when I am ready to cash in my chips, I am going to go at a time and place of my own choosing. Not imminently, but some day.
When HST went, I thought to myself "Well holy shit, that took you long enough. It has been borrowed time for you since 1973." (read the "Author's Note" in Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72 - sorry, can't find the link online). The man wasn't clinically depressed for 30 years! He was just a stubborn old bastard with the courage of his convictions.
So there you go, perilous: I am a sane and rational person who has made an informed choice. I would rather die by suicide than cancer or heart problems or old age, and you are incorrect.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:36 AM on March 8, 2010
Absolutely incorrect. There are people who quite rationally make the decision that they'll decide when to go, that they do not want to leave it up to fate. Cost / benefit calculations based on pretty rational analysis of what is still in store for them if they choose to stick around.
Me, I have known for a long time (in a very calm and rational, and not depressed way) that when I am ready to cash in my chips, I am going to go at a time and place of my own choosing. Not imminently, but some day.
When HST went, I thought to myself "Well holy shit, that took you long enough. It has been borrowed time for you since 1973." (read the "Author's Note" in Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72 - sorry, can't find the link online). The man wasn't clinically depressed for 30 years! He was just a stubborn old bastard with the courage of his convictions.
So there you go, perilous: I am a sane and rational person who has made an informed choice. I would rather die by suicide than cancer or heart problems or old age, and you are incorrect.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:36 AM on March 8, 2010
« Older Is that little green one ever going to come back... | On Saddam's trail Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Scoo at 8:06 AM on February 26, 2010