Incendiary and offensive clothing

May 6, 2010 8:58 AM

Five Californian high school students were sent home on cinco de Mayo for the clothes they were wearing. A vice-principal demanded they turn their shirts inside out so as to not offend other students, calling their clothing incendiary. They refused and, threatened with suspension, left campus. Their offense? Wearing American flag designs on American soil. At least one student believes the five owe everyone an apology for their disrespect.
posted by codswallop (262 comments total)

This is one of those times where the Constitution gives you the right to be an asshole.
posted by EarBucket at 9:00 AM on May 6, 2010 [52 favorites]

California was part of Mexico for longer than it's been part of America.
posted by shii at 9:00 AM on May 6, 2010 [6 favorites]

Way to turn these jerks into martyrs, Mister Vice-Principal.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:01 AM on May 6, 2010 [31 favorites]

I wonder if "incendiary" isn't a code word for "we're sending you home because, if you get the shit kicked out of you, we'll be sued."
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:02 AM on May 6, 2010 [21 favorites]

You know, it makes a difference to me whether they were wearing the shirts and bandanas specifically because it was Cinco de Mayo. For a group of friends to all wear them on the same day seems potentially pre-planned, and potentially a deliberate statement about Cinco de Mayo. Neither of these articles addresses that question.
posted by not that girl at 9:02 AM on May 6, 2010 [27 favorites]

The medium is the message. And in this case, the message is 'I wear really ugly clothes because I'm an asshole.'
posted by shakespeherian at 9:02 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

"They're expressing their individuality."

Ah, that's what they call it these days?
posted by robself at 9:02 AM on May 6, 2010 [4 favorites]

Another "look at these assholes" post.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 9:03 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

California was part of Mexico for longer than it's been part of America.

Alta California was part of Mexico from independence (declared 1810) until the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848). It's been part of the United States since. Baja California has been part of Mexico since independence and remains so.
posted by mr_roboto at 9:03 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

Should have let them wear their "colors".

School officials forgot that getting your ass kicked for being a jerk is very educational...
posted by djrock3k at 9:03 AM on May 6, 2010 [7 favorites]

California was part of Mexico for longer than it's been part of America.

Point?
posted by codswallop at 9:03 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

And of course, California has always been part of America.
posted by mr_roboto at 9:05 AM on May 6, 2010 [7 favorites]

School's action seems ridiculous and inappropriate, and sadly is going to trigger insane conniptions of right-wing outrage, and over-the-top descriptions of the event like: "their OFFENSE: wearing AMERICAN flag designs on AMERICAN SOIL. AMERICAN SOIL, I SAY! BOUGHT WITH PRECIOUS AMERICAN BLOOD! I fear for my country. *sniff* *weep* AMERICAN SOOOOOIIIIILLLLLLL!"
posted by edheil at 9:05 AM on May 6, 2010 [22 favorites]

The one kid protesting the flag shirts said that he wouldn't do that to them on the 4th of July, presumably meaning wearing a shirt with a Mexican flag on it. Maybe he's right that this would create tension, but this seems like a total overreaction that will just pour fuel on the anti-immigrant fires being frantically stoked by Fox News and friends. Or, what EarBucket said.
posted by dellsolace at 9:06 AM on May 6, 2010

I feel like this is the kind of thing that helps you figure out, easily, who's an insensitive tool. School administrators should have let this be handled by the natural and logical consequences: letting these five students be shunned and censured by their peers for being dickish.
posted by padraigin at 9:06 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

The Constitution also gives news agencies the right to mislead and distort, but again that doesn't mean should like it. Ten to one odds says that the shirt pictured in the second link is not one of the shirts in question and that there is more than one side to the story. I'm not necessarily defending the school's decision here, but I suspect these t-shirts and bandannas were intended to provoke and may have been paired with similar behavior.

But that won't sell ads for teeth whitening cream, so facts be damned, let's get some good old-fashioned oppressed-white-male race-baiting going.
posted by allen.spaulding at 9:06 AM on May 6, 2010 [4 favorites]

Halloween Jack I wonder if "incendiary" isn't a code word for "we're sending you home because, if you get the shit kicked out of you, we'll be sued."

djrock3k School officials forgot that getting your ass kicked for being a jerk is very educational...

If Americans get beat for wearing American flags on American soil we have a serious problem here.
posted by codswallop at 9:06 AM on May 6, 2010 [38 favorites]

Yeah, but the mom at the end said her kid (whom was wearing a flag) is Hispanic. Though, that does make it seem like he's not part Mexican and thus probably doesn't give shit even more about a Mexican holiday when he might be Salvadorian or Puerto Rican.

Plus, cinco de Mayo isn't really a Mexican holiday outside of the city of Puebla, it's an excuse for asshole bros to drink tequila.*

*For context: I had to hear my Mexican fiance complain about all the bullshit happening around the 'holiday' that wasn't even Mexican. Like, why the fuck would the local Whole Foods sell virgin Mojitos, and have a steel drum band? That's Cuban b!
posted by wcfields at 9:06 AM on May 6, 2010 [12 favorites]

I suppose the principal should have let those patriots get the shit kicked out of them?
posted by Sys Rq at 9:06 AM on May 6, 2010

América, Sí, mierda!

Not Team America-ist!

Hope Google translate got me in the right ballpark
posted by zippy at 9:07 AM on May 6, 2010

Meh. Let em be assholes. Makes them easier to point out to the rest of us.
posted by Big_B at 9:09 AM on May 6, 2010

Also, this looks like a job for Machete!
posted by zippy at 9:09 AM on May 6, 2010 [4 favorites]

If Americans get beat for wearing American flags on American soil we have a serious problem here.

You've got something of an "OMG White Christian Males are an oppressed minority!!!!" vibe going on here.
posted by EarBucket at 9:10 AM on May 6, 2010 [7 favorites]

Hope Google translate got me in the right ballpark

Citizens of other countries in the Americas are generally not delighted about referring to the EEUU as "America". They perceive this nomenclature as hegemonic and chauvinistic on the part of us Norteamericanos.
posted by mr_roboto at 9:10 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

We're progressives here, so we're totally okay with kids being sent home because they chose to wear t-shirts with American flags on them. These kids ARE assholes, I agree. And we're also totally okay with the implicit racism at work in assuming that if these asshole white kids didn't get sent home, angry brown people would have beaten them up. Yep, yep, I feel very virtuous in my progressiveness, right now. Good to know we're on top of this case.
posted by artemisia at 9:11 AM on May 6, 2010 [15 favorites]

You've got something of an "OMG White Christian Males are an oppressed minority!!!!" vibe going on here.

Don't do this.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:11 AM on May 6, 2010 [27 favorites]

We're progressives here, so we're totally okay with kids being sent home

What? Has anyone in the thread said that? Could you point it out to me?
posted by EarBucket at 9:12 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

Wouldn't it be more offensive if they'd been wearing shirts with the French flag on them?
posted by Windigo at 9:12 AM on May 6, 2010 [35 favorites]

Where in the article does it say these are white kids?
posted by phaedon at 9:13 AM on May 6, 2010

For a group of friends to all wear them on the same day seems potentially pre-planned, and potentially a deliberate statement about Cinco de Mayo. Neither of these articles addresses that question.

Because it's not a particularly relevant question, even assuming it was planned. A provocative intent doesn't invalidate a free speech defense.
posted by fatbird at 9:13 AM on May 6, 2010 [12 favorites]

Ban flags. Problem solved.
posted by Mister_A at 9:13 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

Cinco de Mayo is a "white" person holiday in Southern California. Actual Mexicans (I'm married to one) couldn't give a shit. September 16th is much more important, since that is their Independence day.
posted by sideshow at 9:13 AM on May 6, 2010 [12 favorites]

They perceive this nomenclature as hegemonic and chauvinistic on the part of us Norteamericanos.

well then i'm really glad you showed up to speak for "them."
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:14 AM on May 6, 2010

It could have been worse; they could have worn Pepsi t-shirts on Coke day!

Also I find it interesting that such a big deal was made of this because according to Wikipedia at least, outside of the Mexican state of Puebla, it is primarily celebrated in the U.S. It seems to me that like Halloween and St. Patrick's Day, Cinco de Mayo is primarily a holiday that exists to sell beer.
posted by TedW at 9:14 AM on May 6, 2010 [4 favorites]

There's an excellent joke lurking in here somewhere about flagging and moving on– maybe you will be the one to find it!
posted by Mister_A at 9:14 AM on May 6, 2010 [9 favorites]

The history of the celebration of Cinco de Mayo in the United States is completely unacknowledged here. Yes, it's mostly an excuse for idiots to drink tequila and restaurants to sell a lot of Mexican-themed food. The thing that the idiots wearing the shirts don't realize is that it's really a Mexican-American holiday that's expanded into a celebration of Latino culture. The rise of the celebration of Cinco de Mayo has a lot more to do with the rights of Americans and immigrants. Legal immigrants, who would proudly claim the American flag but might wave a Mexican flag on the holiday as a celebration of heritage.

If a principal could tell the student body to ignore a handful of kids because they're attempting to be jackasses, and failing due to their misunderstanding of history, then he well should have. However, both the student and faculty reaction just makes me feel kind of uncomfortable.
posted by mikeh at 9:14 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

Where in the article does it say these are white kids?

Oops. Article from KTVU, local news channel, has a photo of the kids.

What? Has anyone in the thread said that? Could you point it out to me?

Nope. I was being satirical -- and including myself in the lampooning, because my first reaction was pretty much on par with the first comments on this post.
posted by artemisia at 9:14 AM on May 6, 2010

Wouldn't it be more offensive if they'd been wearing shirts with the French flag on them?

I would expect a Spanish flag would be worse.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:15 AM on May 6, 2010

Obligatory Onion Link.
posted by schmod at 9:16 AM on May 6, 2010

Well, I think that it's always wrong to wear the American flag on a shirt because that shirt will inevitably touch the ground (during laundry or whatever) - and that goes against the codes of flag etiquette. When that shirt gets worn out are you going to give it a dignified disposal? No, sir, I bet you won't. That's my real issue here, the lack of flag etiquette in our society.
posted by nowoutside at 9:17 AM on May 6, 2010 [21 favorites]

Let's require students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance at school in the morning, send the ones that don't want to home for the day, and then revisit this issue, mmkay?
posted by phaedon at 9:17 AM on May 6, 2010

I call Eyjafjallajokull on these idiotic proceedings.
posted by Mister_A at 9:17 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

If Americans get beat for wearing American flags on American soil we have a serious problem here.

I think that you are either missing the implication of what these kids did or completely ignoring it. On a holiday which, in the US, Mexican-American folks use to celebrate their Mexican heritage, waving Mexican flags and etc., a group of students showed up wearing a whole bunch of American flag-adorned clothing. Why did they all happen to do so on this one day? It seems unlikely that it was a coincidence. If it was not a coincidence, there must have been a reason. What was the reason? It would seem to be in response to the holiday that celebrates Mexican heritage. What is the nature of the response? It would seem to be that the nature of the response is American flags chosen over and above Mexican flags. What does this mean? It would seem to mean that these students disagree with the celebration of Mexican heritage, and choose to inform others of this disagreement. Why would they disagree with the celebration of Mexican heritage? This is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:17 AM on May 6, 2010 [11 favorites]

The kids shouldn't have been sent home. If they wore clothes that they would have been allowed to wear any other day of the week at school, whatever their intentions, it should have passed without comment.

Then again, public school administrators are legendarily dumb and short sighted. It sometimes seems as though their default setting is "Do the opposite of what actually makes sense and would cause the least ruckus."
posted by contessa at 9:18 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

Cinco de Mayo is a "white" person holiday in Southern California. Actual Mexicans (I'm married to one) couldn't give a shit. September 16th is much more important, since that is their Independence day.

This. If you're from Puebla, you probably care a bit more, but it's nowhere near the big deal that's made of it in the US, mostly by guys just wanting an excuse to get drunk(er). Dieciséis de septiembre is the 4th of July equivalent for Mexico.
posted by kmz at 9:19 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

I would expect a Spanish flag would be worse.

Cinco de Mayo commemorates the end of French occupation of Mexico.
posted by padraigin at 9:20 AM on May 6, 2010 [9 favorites]

If a Mexican-American wants to celebrate the defeat of French forces by Mexicans, that's all great and grand. It's ridiculous, however, for that person to get pissed off if someone is wearing an American flag in America on the 5th of May. However, I'd expect that the Principal was within his rights to send the boys home given precedent on allowing school administrators to make those types of decisions regarding the sensitivities of students and the context.
posted by Atreides at 9:21 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

So what I find really interesting here is that the free speech rights of students in high school -- even when they're 18 -- are somewhat ill-defined. Despite a 1969 ruling saying that students do not lose their ability to speak freely when they enter schools, each state kind of has its own murky patchwork of precedents that it follows, and the few Supreme Court decisions since are arguably very limited in scope.

I am not a constitutional scholar, but my general interpretation is that schools have a right to curb speech that disrupts or impairs the ability of other students to learn. Further, courts have ruled in the past about the specifics of "school speech," as the school atmosphere is different than general public -- the standards for vulgarity and offensiveness are a lot lower in school.

Which leads to the nuance of symbology. Can the American flag ever be seen as offensive? I'm sure there are people who scoff at the idea, but as a symbol, it clearly can be, just like any other flag in a given context. Plenty of people get angry when the flag is burned or desecrated, hanging the flag upside down is meant to illustrate national emergency, so of course, the context and setting of an American flag is hugely important in understanding the intended "speech" made by flying/wearing/showing one.

So that's the heart of the matter -- were these students trying to provoke the Mexican-American population at the school by wearing the flag? And if so, is this type of provocation protected "school" speech? It seems crazy, but what if the students wore the flag shirts just to try to start fights at the school? What if the flags had been La Raza logos on the Fourth of July?

Symbols are just as powerful as words, sometimes even more powerful because of their ambiguity. I'm a free speech advocate, even for little shits that are likely just trying to anger Mexican-Americans, so I'm really conflicted here, and will follow the inevitable court cases with close attention. But hopefully people are sophisticated enough to realize that a flag is never just a flag.
posted by Damn That Television at 9:21 AM on May 6, 2010 [14 favorites]

In other news, the flagpole outside was also suspended, but for smoking behind the gymnasium.
posted by clearly at 9:22 AM on May 6, 2010 [19 favorites]

Unless the flagboys were going around saying 'More like Stinko de Mayo, amirite?' who gives a shit what they wear?

UmbrageFilter.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:22 AM on May 6, 2010 [6 favorites]

Because it's not a particularly relevant question, even assuming it was planned. A provocative intent doesn't invalidate a free speech defense.

Not quite. Tinker is the basic opinion on free speech in school.
posted by Falconetti at 9:22 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Cinco de Mayo commemorates the end of French occupation of Mexico.

My 6-year-old son told me this over dinner last night. He is smart!
posted by Mister_A at 9:22 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

Basically everyone involved is an asshole. "Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads"

U.S. Flag Code, §8. Respect for flag, sub section d4.: The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery.

Still, the adminstrators were wrong to send the Junior Teabaggers Club home.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:22 AM on May 6, 2010 [16 favorites]

I'm glad to know that support of free speech and expression extends to just "your side," for whatever given side you're on. These kids knew they were going to provoke a reaction, so they should not have done it — like a young woman wearing a tux to Prom down south, they just ought to know better. Oh, wait.

Can we collectively strike the "it might provoke a reaction" condemnation, since it seems to be so inconsistently applied ?
posted by adipocere at 9:23 AM on May 6, 2010 [37 favorites]

(Also if there are any constitutional scholars with experience/knowledge of school speech, please correct me if I'm way off-base, it's been a while since I did any serious reading on the topic.)
posted by Damn That Television at 9:25 AM on May 6, 2010

I'm not totally convinced these kids were assholes; given the circumstances, it seems likely that they were exhibiting other asshole behaviors, but we have nothing more than circumstantial evidence for that. I cannot see that wearing an American flag t-shirt is, in itself, a dick move, no matter what day of the year. Then again, I also wouldn't give a flying fuck if a person of Mexican heritage wore a shirt with a Mexican flag on the 4th of July. I probably wouldn't even notice. So maybe I just don't understand why anybody's getting worked up about this. It's a picture, and a pretty innocuous one at that.

You've got something of an "OMG White Christian Males are an oppressed minority!!!!" vibe going on here.

Even if the kids were making some big xenophobic statement by wearing flags on May 5th (which, again, I think is questionable), I think that's clearly protected speech. It might not be speech you agree with, but if we all agreed with each other all the time the first amendment would be kind of useless, wouldn't it?
posted by Commander Rachek at 9:27 AM on May 6, 2010 [12 favorites]

September 16th is much more important, since that is their Independence day.

Yes, but there is no way drunk frat boys can pronounce "dieciséis de septiembre," so cinco de mayo it is!
plus, frat boys hate the french so much. so, so much
posted by deliquescent at 9:27 AM on May 6, 2010 [8 favorites]

Old Navy tee shirts are now the tools of political protest? Man, kids are lazy today.
posted by 26.2 at 9:28 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Ban flags. Problem solved.

The article mentioned the kids were wearing flag bandannas on their heads, which got me to wondering if any gang has formally adopted the American - or any other nation's flag - as its colours. It would be a good way to circumvent the laws against such things.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:28 AM on May 6, 2010

Then again, I also wouldn't give a flying fuck if a person of Mexican heritage wore a shirt with a Mexican flag on the 4th of July. I probably wouldn't even notice.

This would be a very different power dynamic at play, here.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:28 AM on May 6, 2010 [9 favorites]

So no one would have ever thought "United we stand" means every heritage, every race, every gender--we are one in this country?

God forbid perhaps it was meant as a positive message.
posted by stormpooper at 9:29 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

I wasn't aware that the guy who writes Fox news bulletins was posting to metafilter. Please, tell me about sexting.
posted by codacorolla at 9:29 AM on May 6, 2010 [6 favorites]

Cinco de Mayo commemorates the end of French occupation of Mexico.

The Battle of Puebla was a victory over the French during their initial incursion but the French went on to occupy the country for about 5 years. The significance of the battle wasn't winning the war, but the defeat of a much larger and better equipped army.
posted by kmz at 9:30 AM on May 6, 2010 [4 favorites]

Can the American flag ever be seen as offensive? I'm sure there are people who scoff at the idea, but as a symbol, it clearly can be, just like any other flag in a given context.

I think a better question might be "So what if someone is offended by the flag?" I don't know that anyone has a right to not get offended. Feeling offended is not the same as being oppressed.
posted by Commander Rachek at 9:31 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

I just came here to say what sideshow said about May 5 vs. September 16.

Cinco de Mayo in the US is one of those mostly manufactured holidays, only instead of Hallmark it was promoted by bars and alcohol manufacturers. It was a non-holiday where I grew up (45 miles from the US / Mexico border in southern NM) until only about 10-15 years ago. Even now it's still mostly only about partying until you puke up the worm, and only if you're not actually living a hispanic heritage lifestyle.

Mexican Independence Day, however, would often turn out entire neighbors to block parties around the city.
posted by hippybear at 9:31 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Cinco De Mayo falls about the same as St. Patrick's Day in my estimation, a celebration of heritage. I wouldn't think wearing an American flag shirt would be incendiary during that day. Why was it here?

I don't understand why the rights of the complainers trumped the rights of the flag-shirts in the eyes of the school administrators.

The news story I saw made it a point to say that one of the boys has parents who are both of Mexican descent and one has a white mother and a Mexican father. Maybe the point that they were making was that we may be from Mexico, but we proudly congregate in the USA, that this is part of identity, too.
posted by inturnaround at 9:31 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

It might not be speech you agree with, but if we all agreed with each other all the time the first amendment would be kind of useless, wouldn't it?

I absolutely support the right of these kids to wear the flag at school. I also think it was kind of a dick move, the sort meant to provoke an overreaction from the school that would justify the kind of pearl-clutching that expresses itself as "They were just wearing the American flag! On American soil!" You can think someone's being an asshole and still think they have the right to be an asshole.
posted by EarBucket at 9:32 AM on May 6, 2010 [4 favorites]

Also note: Cinco de Mayo isn't even a federal holiday in Mexico.
posted by kmz at 9:33 AM on May 6, 2010

What about this shirt? Would it be ok?
posted by knapah at 9:33 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Cinco De Mayo falls about the same as St. Patrick's Day in my estimation, a celebration of heritage. I wouldn't think wearing an American flag shirt would be incendiary during that day. Why was it here?

For the same reason there aren't any states passing laws requiring the police to hassle Irish drivers about their immigration papers.
posted by EarBucket at 9:33 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

The article mentioned the kids were wearing flag bandannas on their heads, which got me to wondering if any gang has formally adopted the American - or any other nation's flag - as its colours.

Depends on your definition of "gang," I suppose.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:34 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

Where should I direct my outrage? I get confused sometimes.
posted by fixedgear at 9:34 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

I say we go in and taser the entire community.
posted by phaedon at 9:37 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Incoming frothy mouthed mass email from mom in 3, 2, 1...
posted by The Straightener at 9:38 AM on May 6, 2010 [13 favorites]

All I am saying is that no one here in Vancouver better wear Canadian Flag t-shirts during Chinese New Year - cause that would be... uh.... disprectful to all the Chinese people who built the railway. Yeah. That's it.

Grrrrrr, I am an Angry Asian now!!
posted by helmutdog at 9:41 AM on May 6, 2010 [6 favorites]

If you have kids who are jerks and pull stunty crap like this, get better answers when the news people come knocking. "WE ARE PATRIOTIC" makes you sound like a whole family of jerks. Stick to something like "I don't see anything offensive about this shirt."
posted by 23skidoo at 9:42 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Wait wait wait. So let me get this straight.

1.) On Cinco De Mayo, everyone is forced to observe and respect this holiday, regardless of their constitutional rights to not do so. In fact, they don't even really have to be nice about it, but because it's Cinco De Mayo in an area with a heavy Mexican population, the constitution has no weight.

2.) You can get sent home for displaying American pride, but not for Mexican pride.


Gotcha.
posted by Malice at 9:42 AM on May 6, 2010 [24 favorites]

Again society caves in to the stupid notion that people have some sort of right to not be offended. For the softhearts who always pop up to say, "Oh, that means you're a jackass that likes to offend people,"....no. I just think we need to get off this stupid merry-go-round where we pretend to care about the various conflicting easily-offended sensibilities of whoever. Do you know how much outrage and bullshit would be eliminated if people just shrugged, ignored the offensive, and went on with their lives?

I personally think you should be able to wear 'Fuck you, America AND Fuck you Mexico" shirts if you so desire. And if society would act like adults, and just ignore the idiots that are like little brothers trying to piss off their older sisters, maybe we won't have to hear about this crap all the time. When Big Sister ignores Little Brother, he goes away bored, and feeling vaguely stupid. But no...Big Sister always has to gnash and wail and screech, giving Little Brother exactly the kind of reaction he had hoped for. So he does it again....and again.... Would anyone have hardly noticed these kids if this stupid bi deal hadn't been made about it?

When brainless shitheads strive to get a negative reaction so they can jump on it, why is everyone so eager to cooperate with them? Ignore them: even the ones you agree with.
Next time you feel offended, pause, and realize that NO ONE IN THE WORLD gives a shit about it. But you. So shut up about it.
posted by umberto at 9:42 AM on May 6, 2010 [6 favorites]

Cinco De Mayo falls about the same as St. Patrick's Day in my estimation, a celebration of heritage beer drinking. The only difference is in what drinks are on special.

I think the school officials were incredibly tone deaf to kick the boys out -- surely they could have thought for a little while about how that might look when repeated on the news? Much better to just position a few teachers near the boys to prevent trouble, or have them work on their homework in a back room, and have a chat with any potentially violent students about how their aggression will appear in the media.
posted by Forktine at 9:43 AM on May 6, 2010

I think we can all agree that teachers aren't paid enough to deal with this shit.
posted by infinitewindow at 9:43 AM on May 6, 2010 [34 favorites]

Grarrrr! And on American soil, even!

When I was in school, you weren't allowed to wear bandannas whether they displayed the US flag or not.

Also, if you were deliberately dressed in a way that could be construed as representing a gang affiliation or calculated to provoke a hostile reaction from some other population of students, that was considered disruptive behavior, and yeah, you could get in trouble for doing that and it didn't make national news--even if the offense was wearing a Georgia Bulldogs t-shirt (we had a redneck gang called The Dawgs, and those were their colors--no lie!). It wasn't about the shirt, it was about the message the kids wearing it were trying to send and whether or not it was creating a disruption. The point of kids going to school, after all, is to learn, not to fight out controversial political battles as proxies for their parents.

That said, unless there's more to the story--like the kids in question also going around all day crossing their arms and glaring at Mexican immigrant kids (interesting how the published reports are uncritically reporting the statements of the kids who got in trouble, as if teenagers in hot water with school officials could ever be considered reliable narrators in such circumstances)-- the vice principal probably overreacted.

But so? What's the big deal? Is it news every time some power-hungry school administrator overreacts? Am I supposed to be all outraged now about this tiny little pimple on a mouse's taint of a news event? Is that the general idea? This is an inconsequential local incident of no practical relevance to the nation at large. It's not evidence of any serious systemic problem, it's not even clear evidence of anti-Americanism--it's just nothing. At best it's evidence that school administrators sometimes exercise poor judgment. Whoopty-do. I for one already knew that from experience.

If we have nothing better to do than focus on inconsequential minutia like this right now, at a time when we're seeing an unprecedented convergence of economic and environmental crises--not to mention, caught up in an era in which the politics of cultural and social division seem to dominate every other concern--then I really pity us as a nation, for how far we've descended.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:43 AM on May 6, 2010 [7 favorites]

Yeah, came in to link to the flag code, but OC's got it. These kids wanna be patriots, let 'em drape themselves in fucking bunting. That said, constitution does protect the right to be assholes.
posted by klangklangston at 9:44 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Whether they realized it or not, the only "winning" scenario for admins would have been for them to leave the situation alone and no violence occurred. So you can't really say the admins were self-serving by taking action vs. doing nothing.

However, it's unfortunate that their ultimate decision offended everyone involved. The flag-wearing kids had their rights infringed upon and the admins assumed the Mexican-American population would react violently.

But on the other side of it, had they done nothing and things turned violent the admins would probably have been hung out to dry too. So do you take the action that only hurts the feelings of people involved, or the inaction that arguably could put students in physical danger? (If the intent of the flags was to make a statement about Cinco de Mayo then you can't tell me those kids wouldn't have brought words along with their flags...)
posted by thorny at 9:45 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

You can think someone's being an asshole and still think they have the right to be an asshole.

Ok, I think you're being an asshole, but still think you' have a right to be an asshole.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 9:46 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Freedom isn't free.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:47 AM on May 6, 2010

I guess I'm not sure why people keep bringing up the Constitution? I mean, plenty of schools have dress codes, or even uniforms, and if you violate those dress codes you'll get sent home. Hell, you have a constitutional right to chew gum, but at my high school you'd still have gotten written up for chewing gum in class. Schools have a lot of rules that have nothing to do with a strict interpretation of the First Amendment. I don't necessarily think the administrators made the right decision in this instance but let's stop talking about free speech, please.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:49 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

These kids do sound like assholes, but being an asshole and a teenage boy at the same time is, uh, somewhat likely.

The thing is, if these douchebags don't have the right to wear the American flag on a t-shirt in an American school, how do I know I have the right to burn an American flag on American soil? The school's obligation is protect the kids safety, but they chose the wrong way to do it.

Note: I haven't ever burned a flag and I think there are better ways for me to exercise free speech. But the option should be available if another Bush ever gets "elected," you know what I mean?
posted by ben242 at 9:49 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

I'm Mexican-American and totally okay with people wearing US flag t-shirts any day of the year, 5 de mayo included.

I think it was kinda jerky, but the great part about the US is that you're allowed to be a jerk.

That said, I celebrated it only as an excuse to buy a pack of bottles of really weak pre-made margaritas, and my offhand guess is that very few people who celebrated it know what happened at the Battle of Puebla. None of my family is from Puebla. I have no particular beef with the French. I'll be doing my ethnicity-related drinking properly in September, thank you.
posted by gracedissolved at 9:50 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

posted by Malice Wait wait wait. So let me get this straight.

1.) On Cinco De Mayo, everyone is forced to observe and respect this holiday, regardless of their constitutional rights to not do so. In fact, they don't even really have to be nice about it, but because it's Cinco De Mayo in an area with a heavy Mexican population, the constitution has no weight.

2.) You can get sent home for displaying American pride, but not for Mexican pride.

3. According to certain bombastic, poorly-informed, and megalomaniacal grade-school teachers, you are legally required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance each morning. If you refuse to do so because, as I once observed, "I've already pledged", you will be sent to the office and given an essay assignment about the fucking Pledge of Allegiance.
posted by mattdidthat at 9:51 AM on May 6, 2010 [7 favorites]

For the same reason there aren't any states passing laws requiring the police to hassle Irish drivers about their immigration papers.

Yes, because the Irish have always been universally loved in America...
posted by inturnaround at 9:52 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

I think everyone should be sent to re-education camps, because camping is fun!
posted by Mister_A at 9:52 AM on May 6, 2010

Those kids must me so friggin' happy right now.
posted by longsleeves at 9:52 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Really, who the fuck cares?

It is such a friggen wank of a story designed to rile up nativists and all manner of other sub groups. Frankly the 'OMG American flags on American soil!!!' tag line makes me roll my eyes so hard I nearly fainted.
posted by edgeways at 9:53 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

However, I'd expect that the Principal was within his rights to send the boys home given precedent on allowing school administrators to make those types of decisions regarding the sensitivities of students and the context.

Well, there are court precedents that specify whether or not kids can barred from expressing themselves, so long as it's not disruptive.

When I was in high school a bunch of kids decided to wear T-Shirts that said "I'm straight" as a response to gay kids wearing rainbow flags, etc. (One lesbian girl would wear T-shirts that said things like "Snatch the power" and other double entendres). The administrators made them turn their shirts inside out.

The idea being that if gay kids could wear clothing that informed everyone of their sexuality, could straight kids do the same thing? The answer was no, apparently.

I'm guessing that there's a lot more going on in the school then we're hearing about. But at the same time it's totally possible that the administrators way over reacted and, probably this is going to feed the teabagger persecution complex that right wing radio and fox news constantly stoke.
posted by delmoi at 9:53 AM on May 6, 2010

^"because it's Cinco De Mayo in an area with a heavy Mexican population, the constitution has no weight."

Does this surprise you? I mean, think about it as if you were Mexican. Can you blame Mexicans or Mexican-Americans for not getting a stiffy at the opportunity to uphold the principles of the Constitution wherever they go?
posted by Demogorgon at 9:54 AM on May 6, 2010

I guess I'm not sure why people keep bringing up the Constitution? I mean, plenty of schools have dress codes, or even uniforms, and if you violate those dress codes you'll get sent home.

You'll find that their dress codes are not viewpoint discriminatory, except in cases like gang colors or obscenity.
posted by Jahaza at 9:54 AM on May 6, 2010

Those kids must me so friggin' happy right now.

Yep. You can try to hoist your asshole flag, but it's hard to get it all the way to the top of the mast without the assistance of the easily offended.
posted by umberto at 9:56 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

Freedom isn't free.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:47 AM on May 6

Freeballing is always free.
posted by ColdChef at 9:56 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

How stupid.

Not that I'm not sure that the kids wearing the flag weren't trying to provoke, but as many posters have said, you have a right to be an asshole when you're an adult, and while you don't have those rights as a student, there are a lot better ways to deal with this...

e.g. this script:

Principal: "Hey, got a few minutes? Can I see you all in my office?"
[in office]

"So what's the deal with the outfits?"

[Lets kids talk a lot - refuses to say anything significant until they're thoroughly embarrassed. Long pause...]

"You know, the world is a pretty small place and there are lots of people who don't love each other crammed too close together. Someone compared it to a lot of guys with matches in a small shack filled with fireworks.

"Things are tough enough without picking fights. You want to make sure the guy beside you has got your back. And a good way to do that is to make sure that he knows that you respect him for who he is.

"Thanks for listening, have a nice Cinqo de Mayo!"

I actually had some pretty decent teachers and principals in my grade school life. One of the things they were was confident in their power, so they rarely had to actually execute it...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:57 AM on May 6, 2010 [19 favorites]

I remember when schools started instituting "gang clothing" policies. These were completely arbitrary and mostly boiled down to "too many" kids wearing similar-ish clothing. I don't see what the difference is here.

Mind you, I think such policies are stupid and don't actually DO anything to stop gangs, but I also gotta look at the people upset by this and wonder why they've been silent all these years...

But then again, the folks who were silent for Bush's expansion of presidential power are now suddenly concerned with Obama's.

Funny how that works.
posted by yeloson at 9:57 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

3. According to certain bombastic, poorly-informed, and megalomaniacal grade-school teachers, you are legally required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance each morning. If you refuse to do so because, as I once observed, "I've already pledged", you will be sent to the office and given an essay assignment about the fucking Pledge of Allegiance.

I moved around a lot, and my refusal to recite the pledge got varying degrees of results. I've never had to do an essay on it though. That a brainwashy punishment.
posted by Malice at 9:57 AM on May 6, 2010

These kids are like Rosa Parks meets Gandhi meets Shaft! Except not all brown and disadvantaged and oppressed and stuff.

OK, not as principled as Shaft either.

Maybe less considered than Gandhi.

But other than that, just like those people!

Except maybe without as much skin in the game, personally, as Rosa Parks.

But other than that, yeah, freedom-fighters!

WOLVERINES
posted by Mister_A at 9:57 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

And if society would act like adults, and just ignore the idiots that are like little brothers trying to piss off their older sisters, maybe we won't have to hear about this crap all the time. When Big Sister ignores Little Brother, he goes away bored, and feeling vaguely stupid.

I'd agree with you if these were actual adults pulling this kind of stuff out and about in the world. But they're kids in high school, which has bizarro rules. "Ignore Jerks and They Will Eventually Stop" is never going to work in a high school situation.

Sure, let the assholes wear their assholeshirts, but c'MON.
posted by 23skidoo at 9:58 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

You'll find that their dress codes are not viewpoint discriminatory, except in cases like gang colors or obscenity.

Most dress codes are viewpoint discriminatory, often forbidding any message on t-shirts, or forbidding T-shirts with a specific religious, musical, ethical or political statement.

This is fine by me - these are kids and don't have all the rights of adults, precisely because they are kids and don't yet know what is appropriate.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:00 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

When I was in high school a bunch of kids decided to wear T-Shirts that said "I'm straight" as a response to gay kids wearing rainbow flags, etc. (One lesbian girl would wear T-shirts that said things like "Snatch the power" and other double entendres). The administrators made them turn their shirts inside out.

Were you in High School recently? You must be pretty young, or went to a very open minded school for the times. The fact that they could have done that when I was in school is pretty awesome, but unbelievable. Too much hate. I had my girlfriend in my lap during lunch once and it got us verbally attacked for two weeks.
posted by Malice at 10:00 AM on May 6, 2010

You've got something of an "OMG White Christian Males are an oppressed minority!!!!" vibe going on here.

because only white christian males wear american flags, am i right?
posted by pyramid termite at 10:01 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

This is totally like the time in high school when I got sent home for wearing my Eaten Back to Life t-shirt. Some people are so easily offended.
posted by Demogorgon at 10:01 AM on May 6, 2010

WOLVERINES

Man maybe it's just me but for some reason whenever anyone does this it doesn't sound like Red Dawn in my head so much as This is Spinal Tap where they're wandering around in Cleveland trying to find the stage and every now and then someone will yell 'Rock and roll!'
posted by shakespeherian at 10:02 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

These kids are like Rosa Parks meets Gandhi meets Shaft! Except not all brown and disadvantaged and oppressed and stuff.

OK, not as principled as Shaft either.

Maybe less considered than Gandhi.

But other than that, just like those people!

Except maybe without as much skin in the game, personally, as Rosa Parks.

But other than that, yeah, freedom-fighters!

WOLVERINES
posted by Mister_A at 9:57 AM on May 6 [+] [!]

You have to defend everyone's freedom to be assholes or whatever they want to be that's protected under the constitution, or it won't be long before some freedom that's important to you is infringed on as well. And then who's going to protect yours?
posted by Malice at 10:03 AM on May 6, 2010

100+ comments and no one has figured out the meaning of in loco parentis.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:04 AM on May 6, 2010

Ahh pyramid termite. Remember the flap about Obama wearing and then sometimes not wearing the flag lapel pin, and whether the occasional omission was total proof or incontrovertible proof of his hatred for the US of A? I used to think that was the dumbest flap ever, but some of these new flaps, boy...
posted by Mister_A at 10:05 AM on May 6, 2010

@Demogorgon: This might shock you? But Mexican-Americans are in fact Americans, and therefore just as likely to think the Constitution is pretty awesome as anybody else. Or just as likely not to.

See also: Plenty of whites who do not believe in the establishment clause, or the right to bear arms, or whatever other parts of the document don't suit them personally. Living in the country that has declared certain things to be the law doesn't mean you have to agree with them or want them to be true or interpret them the same way other people do or anything else.
posted by gracedissolved at 10:05 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Malice:

Well, duh!
posted by Mister_A at 10:06 AM on May 6, 2010

Mister_A:

Thanks for clarifying.
posted by Malice at 10:08 AM on May 6, 2010

"Ignore Jerks and They Will Eventually Stop" is never going to work in a high school situation.


If someone is punching you in the head and stealing your money, yeah, you're right, because their actions achieve the desired goal: getting money and terrifying someone. But if they are trying to make a statement that offends? I'm sorry...I think you're wrong. Kids are predisposed to monitor reactions, push limits, test the barriers. They like to. Putting effort into an outrageous act that outrages no one would be very unsatisfying to a kid trying to develop his inner asshole. If you can't provoke a reaction, why bother?

Nice lesson from the adults that freaking out and banning shit is an proper reaction. This is almost as dumb as 'mandatory zero-tolerance', which is one of the stupidest and most crippling notions to emerge from the shattered remnants of our educational system. Teach the freaking kids how to do math and not what kind of shirt to wear. These are our educational priorities? No wonder we're turning into a bunch of gullible, whining, lowbrow, unthinking, culture-drunken dupes.
posted by umberto at 10:10 AM on May 6, 2010

I don't necessarily think the administrators made the right decision in this instance but let's stop talking about free speech, please.

Schoolchildren do indeed have some First Amendment rights, however much erosion judges in the mold of Clarence Thomas have allowed them to erode. Pointing out unrelated restraints on acceptable behavior in school is a non sequitur. In fact, I can't think of a situation in which an American flag T-shirt doesn't fall squarely within Tinker.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 10:10 AM on May 6, 2010

"In a statement released on Wednesday, the Morgan Hill Unified School District said it did not agree with the school's actions.

'In an attempt to foster a spirit of cultural awareness and maintain a safe and supportive school environment, the Live Oak High School administration took certain actions earlier today,' the statement read. 'The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions.'"*

posted by ericb at 10:11 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

in loco parentis
Garçon means boy.
posted by WolfDaddy at 10:12 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

It seems to me that like Halloween and St. Patrick's Day, Cinco de Mayo is primarily a holiday that exists to sell beer.

Every time I try to pass out Halloween beer, I get arrested for some contributing to the delinquency of a minor made up bullshit.

Well, I think that it's always wrong to wear the American flag on a shirt because that shirt will inevitably touch the ground (during laundry or whatever) - and that goes against the codes of flag etiquette.

We arrested Abbie Hoffman for getting pit stains on his american flag t-shirt back in 1968, look how far we've come now.
posted by nomisxid at 10:12 AM on May 6, 2010

I wonder if any of these dudes were packin' Advil? Were they strip-searched in accordance with the teachings of various insane school administrators?
posted by Mister_A at 10:13 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

This might shock you? But Mexican-Americans are in fact Americans, and therefore just as likely to think the Constitution is pretty awesome as anybody else. Or just as likely not to.

Yeah, I know, that's why I didn't say something stupid like "all Mexicans hate the Constitution." I didn't mean to imply that either so, sorry if that's how it came across.

Living in the country that has declared certain things to be the law doesn't mean you have to agree with them or want them to be true or interpret them the same way other people do or anything else.

Which is why I'm surprised that Malice is surprised that just because these people are Americans doesn't mean that live and die by the Constitution.
posted by Demogorgon at 10:13 AM on May 6, 2010

Teenagers wearing flags in order to offend some of their schoolmates = Douchebags

Schoolmates feeling offended over said flags = Bigger douchebags

Spineless school officials overreacting to such a transparent adolescent attempt at stirring some shit = Even bigger douchebags

Opportunistic journalists reporting on this trainwreck = Biggest douchebags

Rubbernecking MeFites spending bandwidth over this shit = Off the douchebag scale
posted by Skeptic at 10:16 AM on May 6, 2010 [6 favorites]

They have a brunch break? WTH?
posted by oddman at 10:17 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

A few observations:

• The students were jerks, but that's one of the things you have the right to be in America, a jerk. I wish we didn't exercise that particular right so enthusiastically and often, but we do fundamentally have it.
• The administrator meant well, and his stance is probably correct from a moral perspective, but he doesn't have a leg to stand on here.
• The framing of this post is more than a little incendiary.

posted by Malor at 10:18 AM on May 6, 2010

"The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations."
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:19 AM on May 6, 2010

100+ comments and no one has figured out the meaning of in loco parentis.

I don't know about the stuff about parents, but I'm always loco for Cinco de Mayo.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:19 AM on May 6, 2010

Stay classy, Morgan Hill!

These kids are lucky they didn't try this shit in Gilroy, Watsonville, or Salinas. Being sent home would only delay the inevitable (and epic) ass kicking they would receive.
posted by mosk at 10:20 AM on May 6, 2010

At least they didn't say meep.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:21 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Which is why I'm surprised that Malice is surprised that just because these people are Americans doesn't mean that live and die by the Constitution.

I'm not surprised. I'm disappointed. But hey, what's new? Our rights get trampled every damn day. Americans who are brown-skinned get arrested as 'terrorists', never to see their families again and denied all rights.
posted by Malice at 10:22 AM on May 6, 2010

Most dress codes are viewpoint discriminatory, often forbidding any message on t-shirts, or forbidding T-shirts with a specific religious, musical, ethical or political statement.

No, this is viewpoint neutral. If all message t-shirts are banned, the ban is viewpoint neutral because it doesn't matter what your viewpoint is, you don't get to wear it on your chest.

Viewpoint discriminatory is "Only kids wearing Jesus t-shirts have to go home to change because we don't allow Jesus t-shirts here. But the Buddha t-shirts are OK."
posted by devinemissk at 10:25 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

I would expect a Spanish flag would be worse.

Actually, it is. Spaniards view the over-display of their national flag to be a signal to others that you're a fascist. In fact it is, even though some will try and camouflage it by just using the colored flag background without the royal coat-of-arms. More opulent types will have the flag bearing the old black eagle from the Francoist days. They don't wear t-shirts or bandanas like the aforementioned high-school clowns, but if you're observant you'll see a lapel pin here or there and a small sticker on their wristwatch band or affixed to the underside of the watch. The shameless just wear a Falange flag and don't have a need to be coy about anything. I'd avoid those people. In general, the rule for over-displaying the national flag is good for the national soccer team, bad for politics or local teams. Post office and city hall are all good everywhere except in the Basque region.

I'm not trying to derail here, but I'm acutely aware of the way symbols plays into nationalism and the dangers that lie within. The right are always going to try an co-opt any "symbol of America" however remotely related to reality and however painful it may be to some, you have to call them out on it, else they're going to use it to their advantage and trap you into a position where you'd have to adopt an unpopular stance to disagree with them.
posted by jsavimbi at 10:27 AM on May 6, 2010 [6 favorites]

OMG White Christian Males are an oppressed minority

This attitude and ignorance by some on the left is why you are never going to get people on the other side to agree with you. Not everyone on the right is racist nor is everyone on the right against all immigration. For that matter not everyone on the left is for completely opening up the borders and letting the 5 billion + people of the third world move in.


I'll conclude with:
"OMG Liberals hate white people !!!111!!!1!!"
posted by dibblda at 10:29 AM on May 6, 2010 [9 favorites]

Is there anything worse than shirts with the american flag on them? They are ugly and only worn by people idiotic enough to think that who balzenly you display brand America is what determines how big a patriot you are.
posted by afu at 10:31 AM on May 6, 2010

MetaFilter: still mostly only about partying until you puke up the worm.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:32 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

The students are, clearly, guilty under Prop 21:

"As used in this chapter, "criminal street gang" means any ongoing organization...having a common name or common identifying sign or symbol, and whose members individually or collectively engage in or have engaged in a pattern of criminal gang activity"

One of the "criminal gang activities" listed in the proposition is "intimidation"! Send 'em to the clink for a million trillion years!

(I miss California.)
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:32 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Is there anything worse than shirts with the american flag on them? They are ugly and only worn by people idiotic enough to think that who balzenly you display brand America is what determines how big a patriot you are.
posted by afu at 10:31 AM on May 6 [+] [!]

Is there anything worse than shirts with the american Mexican flag on them? They are ugly and only worn by people idiotic enough to think that who balzenly you display brand America Mexico is what determines how big a patriot you are.

It can go two ways you know. Just because something is ugly (hideous, both flags are in my eyes, yuck) doesn't mean others don't have a right to display it.
posted by Malice at 10:34 AM on May 6, 2010

At my high school, certain kids were literally sent home for wearing Georgia Bulldogs t-shirts (actually, they didn't go home though--they just hung out on the corner within view of the school and had big group fist fights) because the administration knew these particular kids didn't just happen to all be wearing Georgia Bulldogs shirts at the same time, but were wearing the shirts as a symbol of gang affiliation (and they were).

It's not impossible that something similar was going on here. Were there any other kids wearing articles of clothing that included depictions the US flag that day who weren't singled out? I'd be willing to bet there were. I don't think the central issue was that some kids were wearing the US flag, or even that they were wearing them that day.

Either way, the school vice-principal should still get a spanking over this.

But again: So what? They're not my kids. I don't know enough about the situation to really understand what was going on, and neither do any of us, really. The reporting here is conspicuously one-sided.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:36 AM on May 6, 2010

Is there anything worse than shirts with the american flag on them?

And yet clothing with the Union Jack looks frickin' sweet. Clearly we just have a really ugly flag.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:38 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

I hope these kids sue the begeesus out of the school and the officials responsible for sending them home. Also, people in-thread calling the kids assholes need to tone it down and take a moment to locate their humanity. You're engaging in namecalling against kids just because they expressed an opinion you disagree with? You don't get to do that. Shame on you.
posted by thesmophoron at 10:42 AM on May 6, 2010

And yet clothing with the Union Jack looks frickin' sweet.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 10:43 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

Morgan Hill is an odd little town, and this does not surprise me at all. I doubt there is any more to it than we know - some kids wore flag clothes and went home. There is a lot of tension there, both suburban / agricultural and racial. On Cinco de Mayo there are a lot of people driving around with Mexican flags on their hoods, honking like crazy. It might not be a big deal in Mexico, but it is a pretty big deal in that part of California.

I really don't see where there is room for argument on this. It is not offensive to wear an American flag on Cinco de Mayo. Even if you are a teenage jackass. However, the school probably needs a no flags of any kind rule, because this is not going to go away. Especially while the parents of these kids are listening to Lou Dobbs.
posted by Nothing at 10:46 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Codswallop, I was being arch, calm down.

Of course I'm not promoting fighting at school, nor bending to societal norms. If they want to be contrary, so be it.

and I'm sure that California is well known to be on "American Soil"...
posted by djrock3k at 10:46 AM on May 6, 2010

It's sad that the American flag, when used like this by these assholes, becomes a weapon of racist hate. These shirts were worn with the explicit intent of intimidating people who had the audacity to celebrate Mexican culture and history - don't they know that's where the illegals who are killing this country are from? It's not that they were sent home for wearing flag shirts at all, they were sent home for wearing a shirt specifically to provoke a confrontation - and it's unlikely that wearing the shirts is all they were doing. This is going to be a shitstorm, but the school acted appropriately.
posted by kafziel at 10:47 AM on May 6, 2010

"OMG Liberals hate white people !!!111!!!1!!"

You can hold the shift key down the whole time. You don't have to repress it for each exclamation point. Makes it easier.
posted by inigo2 at 10:47 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

/sigh
posted by Xoebe at 10:47 AM on May 6, 2010

One more thing Malice:

You have to defend everyone's freedom to be assholes or whatever they want to be that's protected under the constitution, or it won't be long before some freedom that's important to you is infringed on as well. And then who's going to protect yours?

Why should we count on the assholes to defend us when it comes time for them to do so? How can we be so certain they'd want to protect our rights, or that they'd go out of their way to do it? After all, they're assholes, right? Honestly, I tend not to sympathize with people who are assholes by choice, because it's a right I like to think I exercise infrequently. Unintentional assholism is a different thing entirely.

Also,

Americans who are brown-skinned get arrested as 'terrorists', never to see their families again and denied all rights.

The problem here is that it kind of seems like the kids wearing the shirts can be compared to the people who would arrest Americans who are brown-skinned as 'terrorists.' Given the choice of protecting the rights of a person to hate brown-skinned people (i.e. - be an asshole), and protecting the rights of a person to be brown-skinned (wtf?), I'm going to go with the latter.

Really though, I'm not altogether convinced that this story is being presented entirely accurately. I mean, if some kids really wanted to offend Mexicans on Cinco de Mayo, wouldn't they wear some Confederate flags or something?
posted by Demogorgon at 10:49 AM on May 6, 2010

This is totally like the time in high school when I got sent home for wearing my Eaten Back to Life t-shirt. Some people are so easily offended.

My all-time favorite coworker used to wear black, obnoxiously-graphic'd heavy metal shirts under his white dress shirt and tie just to fuck with management.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:50 AM on May 6, 2010

because only white christian males wear american flags, am i right?

... the man in the picture is christian, male, and half-white. did i miss something?
posted by thesmophoron at 10:50 AM on May 6, 2010

Alvy Ampersand: The article mentioned the kids were wearing flag bandannas on their heads, which got me to wondering if any gang has formally adopted the American - or any other nation's flag - as its colours. It would be a good way to circumvent the laws against such things.

There is no law preventing anyone from wearing gang or any other colors.
posted by desjardins at 10:56 AM on May 6, 2010

kafziel, I hope you're kidding. Because you seem to be jumping to an unwarranted conclusion and then basing further unwarranted conclusions on that.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 10:58 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

You're engaging in namecalling against kids just because they expressed an opinion you disagree with? You don't get to do that. Shame on you.

What do you mean? Of course you get to do that. On any given occasion, there will probably be high school kids being assholes. Calling them out is a crucial component of the growth process. Let us review a few popular examples:

"Hitler rules!"
"Kid, you are an asshole!"

"Three-lane-changes rule!"
"Kid, you are an asshole!"

"Creed rules!"
"Kid, you are an asshole!"

"Joe Lieberman rules!"
"Kid, you are a motherfucking asshole!"
posted by furiousthought at 11:09 AM on May 6, 2010 [7 favorites]

1. Many people outside the United States of America marvel at American's near-worship of their flag.

2. No issue involving an american flag will ever be settled to the full agreement of all parties, no matter how ridiculous.

discuss.
posted by blue_beetle at 11:13 AM on May 6, 2010

You're engaging in namecalling against kids just because they expressed an opinion you disagree with? You don't get to do that. Shame on you.

They're assholes, trying to show Mexican students disrespect. I don't care what fucking age you are, if you're an asshole, I'll call you one.

I would never in a million years tell those kids they couldn't have that opinion or wear their shirts, but I'd most emphatically tell them they're jerks to do it. If they want to take on the adult privilege of having political opinions, that's fine, but that also means they get to play in the big boy pool of having those opinions roundly criticized.
posted by Malor at 11:14 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

Just for the record. There is no freedom of speech in schools, its a nuanced issue but the courts have decided against protest speech in schools over and over again.

Why?

The short answer is that school administrators are free to curb disruptive activities regardless of whether they are 'speech' or not. Your words and opinions may be protected, but being a disruptive asshole is not.

At the very minimum this behavior was intended to incite an incident. We don't have the information but it likely could have risen to overt bullying which is illegal in many states. Even if nothing happened. They weren't screaming ethnic slurs at fellow students, but it falls on low end of the same scale, and is likewise not protected speech.

The administrator probably made the best choice. He was more kind then he had to be especially since they refused to take off the shirts. If It had happened in my youth they would have been suspended for disobeying.

I suspect that if no one had been offended there would have been no reprisal, these jerks were probably belligerent enough about it to be reported.
posted by darkfred at 11:14 AM on May 6, 2010

(NOT OUTRAGE-IST)
posted by joe lisboa at 11:15 AM on May 6, 2010

I guess I never considered it, because usually the kids getting kicked out are wearing shirts that I agree with, but this type of story is absolutely the best dog-whistle there is.

You have an innocent party, a crusty authoritarian, good/bad that falls into an easy binary, and a distinct element that lends itself to "those fuckers are taking our shit!" political comic and op-ed writing.

Every one of these stories should come with a recommendation link like this story? then you'll love Animal House.

With one notable exception (the lesbian couple at the prom from a few months ago) these stories are worthless and go nowhere, other than to reinforce an embattled sense in whatever party they're catering to.

Fuck this type of news story.
posted by codacorolla at 11:17 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

It was a planned provocation. The school was "wrong" but taking an action to prevent a larger problem for the day. In passing: the holiday means much much less in Mexico than in the US, where marketing has made it so big.
posted by Postroad at 11:17 AM on May 6, 2010

There is no law preventing anyone from wearing gang or any other colors.

Fie on you and your smugly italicized verbs! Was/is too!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:20 AM on May 6, 2010

This is a non-story. There are no conclusions to draw from this, only spin. Some administrators at a high school made a reactionary decision. Like that's surprising?
posted by iamck at 11:22 AM on May 6, 2010

Freedom isn't free.

If freedom isn't free, why are conservatives always bitching about taxes?
posted by MegoSteve at 11:22 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Fair enough Alvy, I'm in the US and the story originates in the US, so I was coming from that perspective.
posted by desjardins at 11:22 AM on May 6, 2010

I don't think any of us is honestly in a position to make any final pronouncements on this story, because there's far too much we don't know about what actually happened.

Also, it really doesn't amount to anything more than a trifling personal dispute that should remain between the parents of the kids in question and the school administrators. Sober adults should be above getting riled up over stuff like this, because it's such an isolated and inconsequential incident (I guarantee you far worse isolated abridgments of free expression have gone unnoticed and unremarked in classrooms and on school yards over the years), and yet, a thread like this--over literally a schoolyard matter--merits how many comments here on the blue?

Over what? Another trivial excuse for us to get up on our soapboxes? Does this story really even merit a fraction of this much fuss? What's actually at stake here? Does anyone here honestly believe that if we had never heard about and discussed this incident, the end of our constitutional government would have been the inevitable result with a general, widespread prohibition on "expressions of national pride" soon to follow?

Jeez, you'd think adults would have better things to do. But then, here I am, too, pounding my chest over how meaningless this entire discussion is, so I guess the impulse to engage in self-satisfied grandstanding trumps all, in the end.

And maybe--just maybe--that's enough.

(Cue soft inspirational music; fade to black; roll credits.)
posted by saulgoodman at 11:23 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

trying to show Mexican students disrespect

Talk to me more about these psychic powers you've honed to work flawlessly over long distances with people you've never met, please.
posted by thesmophoron at 11:23 AM on May 6, 2010

> Is there anything worse than shirts with the american flag on them?

Budweiser shirts
posted by jfuller at 11:26 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

posted by Postroad It was a planned provocation.

And the school endorsed it by flying the American flag (and presumably, the California state flag) on the flagpole!
posted by mattdidthat at 11:28 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

You know what they do for Cinco de Mayo in Mexico?

Go to work like every other day.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:29 AM on May 6, 2010

discuss.

Being outside the USA I clearly fall in your "point 1" group, so if you don't mind, instead of discussing anything, I'm just going to sit here and stare at this thread for a while. Flabbergasted is the word I'm looking for, I think.
posted by DreamerFi at 11:33 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

So a school administrator got to feel smug and self righteous and a couple of teenagers got to feel like big bad rebels even though they totally aren't.

It seems like everyone got what they wanted here.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 11:34 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

inigo2,

!!!11!!11!1!!!1!!

Is a meme and a bad joke.
posted by dibblda at 11:35 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

This amazes me - both the incident itself, and some of the reactions here.

Five kids wearing American-themed apparel to school on ANY day shouldn't be considered inappropriate or warrant discipline.

Five kids wearing American-themed apparel to school on a semi-recognized day of ethnic and/or religious and/or cultural importance to a minority of fellow students and/or citizens shouldn't be considered inappropriate or warrant discipline.

If the kids had done this on, say, St. Patrick's Day - would any of the students of Irish descent have noticed, let alone asked for an apology? Would the principal have told them that they are being disrespectful to their Irish-American peers?

If some Christian kids had worn "Merry Christmas!" shirts to school during Hannukah, would they have been disciplined or told to turn the shirts inside-out? Would any Jewish students have been offended?
posted by davidmsc at 11:36 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

They're assholes, trying to show Mexican students disrespect.

Can you prove this, or are you just engaging in conjecture that neatly fits your stereotype of everybody that doesn't dress like you do?
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 11:39 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

If the kids had done this on, say, St. Patrick's Day - would any of the students of Irish descent have noticed, let alone asked for an apology? Would the principal have told them that they are being disrespectful to their Irish-American peers?

Are the Irish traditionally non-white? Is there a massive cultural controversy going on in the country this very day, exemplified in the passive of outrageously racist laws and the formation of militia, vilifying and criminalizing the Irish? Are people with hair that could be construed as red being stopped and forced to show proof of citizenship lest they face arrest and deportation?

Context matters. This was an act of racist intimidation, and the school has a responsibility to deal with that shit.
posted by kafziel at 11:40 AM on May 6, 2010

>But that won't sell ads for teeth whitening cream, so facts be damned

I think we're all missing the point here. Can you tell me more about this teeth whitening cream? Is it on sale this week? Where?
posted by thebordella at 11:41 AM on May 6, 2010

Context matters.

If you believe this, how can you say

This was an act of racist intimidation,

with the barest of facts in front of you?
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 11:42 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

When I was a kid in high school, I'd have been suspended, if not expelled, for wearing an American flag bandanna any day of the year. Only dirty, disrespectful hippies would do something that vile.
posted by QIbHom at 11:43 AM on May 6, 2010

Good god, what a disaster.

That we imbue these symbols with so much import makes me despair for our collective future.

Flags and nationalistic symbols...

Feh! I say.
posted by clvrmnky at 11:43 AM on May 6, 2010

"Don't feed the trolls" is advice that also works in real life.
posted by toekneebullard at 11:44 AM on May 6, 2010 [4 favorites]

Government != Culture. Mexico's government is kind of jacked. I know the United States' gov't is no bed of roses, and I find flag displays a bit too jingoist at all, but I can conceive of some reasonable ways to comment on the so-called liberation of Mexico by comparing it with the US. I'm sure these kids were just trying to get a rise out of everyone, but seriously, Cinco de Mayo is a joke. It's not supposed to be a referendum day on all things Mexican or faux-Mexican. That's the crap commercialized take on it.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:44 AM on May 6, 2010

(Forgive me for not reading the whole comment thread)

Unless these guys routinely wear American flags, I expect this was a display of passive-aggressive dickishness on their part.

That said, the article DOESN'T go into whether these are kids who are constantly trying to start shit, or if they simply thought they were being funny, or if they have an ongoing beef not with their classmates but rather the administration...

...and, ultimately, it sounds to me like this was more of a case of "poorly handled" than anything else.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:44 AM on May 6, 2010

The funny thing about this for me is that at the high school I went to a mere 5 American flag t-shirts would have been a shockingly unpatriotic Wednesday. Sometimes you'd even get guys wearing an American flag shirt and a Confederate flag hat at the same time.

That's Ohio for you, though.
posted by Copronymus at 11:45 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

So what do we think of the children?
posted by NortonDC at 11:46 AM on May 6, 2010

I think that you are either missing the implication of what these kids did or completely ignoring it. On a holiday which, in the US, Mexican-American folks use to celebrate their Mexican heritage, waving Mexican flags and etc., a group of students showed up wearing a whole bunch of American flag-adorned clothing. Why did they all happen to do so on this one day? It seems unlikely that it was a coincidence. If it was not a coincidence, there must have been a reason. What was the reason? It would seem to be in response to the holiday that celebrates Mexican heritage. What is the nature of the response? It would seem to be that the nature of the response is American flags chosen over and above Mexican flags. What does this mean? It would seem to mean that these students disagree with the celebration of Mexican heritage, and choose to inform others of this disagreement. Why would they disagree with the celebration of Mexican heritage? This is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:17 PM on May 6 [8 favorites +] [!]


Constructive inference is where the law outragefilter goes mad.
posted by jfuller at 11:48 AM on May 6, 2010

If you believe this, how can you say

This was an act of racist intimidation,

with the barest of facts in front of you?

Because I read the damn articles, and have some basic awareness of the world in which I exist and this story happened?

What's your non-racist explanation for five white friends coordinating matching outfits with flag-patterned shirts and flag bandannas, specifically on Cinco de Mayo, and walking out rather than changing or even taking off a bandanna?
posted by kafziel at 11:48 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

posted by kafziel Context matters. This was an act of racist intimidation, and the school has a responsibility to deal with that shit.

How is wearing an American flag shirt an act of racist intimidation toward Mexican-Americans? If the American flag shirt offended Mexican citizens--well, sorry, this is the United States. That's not racism, that's just a fact.
posted by mattdidthat at 11:50 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Mexican is a race now?
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 11:51 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

"OMG Liberals hate white people !!!111!!!1!!"

You can hold the shift key down the whole time. You don't have to repress it for each exclamation point. Makes it easier. -- inigo2

Obviously, inigo2 is not aware of all internet traditions.
posted by tzikeh at 11:54 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

> What's your non-racist explanation for five white friends coordinating matching outfits with flag-patterned shirts and flag bandannas, specifically on Cinco de Mayo, and walking out rather than changing or even taking off a bandanna?

The five friends are teenagers, with a fuzzy awareness of how poorly articulated the differences between race and nationalism are in our culture, and sought to test the reactions of authority by doing something they found unimpeachable on its own, in a complicated context.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:55 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Would the principal have told them that they are being disrespectful to their Irish-American peers?

None of those quotes were from the principal or anyone with any authority in this matter, you know. There was one quote in which one of the kids paraphrased what they claimed the principle said, and then another, chosen seemingly for no reason other than to confound, from some other student chosen apparently at random. Again, look more closely at what information these stories do and do not include. It's impossible, from the limited information presented here, to tell if any of your pointed rhetorical questions are anything more then non sequitur really, because there's just not enough information here.

Plus that, again, who cares? And why? It's not like anyone's alleging this was an official school policy. In fact, higher-ups from the school district are explicitly cited in the first report as saying they don't support the vice principal's decision:

The district and the school dp not see eye-to-eye on the incident and released the following statement:

The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions.

So... what's the big deal again? Instead of making this about "people getting offended" and about "liberals" and about "white privilege" or the Mexicans or whatever, we just see it for the marginal little personal spat between some parents and a vice principle whose disciplinary actions they don't agree with, let them sort it out in private (like people do every day unnoticed by the selective eye of the press), and move on?
posted by saulgoodman at 11:55 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

What's your non-racist explanation for five white friends coordinating matching outfits with flag-patterned shirts and flag bandannas, specifically on Cinco de Mayo, and walking out rather than changing or even taking off a bandanna?

I think we should start by asking the kids and people (sympathetic to this dress plan or not) they might have spoken to in advance, rather than jumping to the most damning scenario possible. I haven't read enough about the situation (and there doesn't seem to be enough written by non-involved parties yet) to say either way. But the American flag stands for a whole bunch of ideas, as evidenced by the wide variety of political groups that employ it as part of demonstrations/literature etc. Assuming automatically that a person is a racist for wearing American flag clothing is not a defensible assumption, I don't believe. The only other context we have is the date on which it occurred, and this leaves open a wide variety of ideas they could have been trying to convey - but we have nothing that points to a specific one.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 11:56 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Mexican is a race now?

Yes. There are several sub-types of Mexicans: Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Venezuelans, etc.

Just as Chinese is a race comprising sub-types like Japanese and Vietnamese.
posted by Mister_A at 11:56 AM on May 6, 2010 [7 favorites]

the courts have decided against protest speech in schools over and over again

is a far cry from

There is no freedom of speech in schools

Tinker teaches us that students do not "shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse door." But school administrators can restrict students' speech more than the government can restrict your and my speech in order to ensure that the school can continue to teach, impose discipline, etc. There's a balancing test (there's always a balancing test), and the courts will balance the students' rights against the schools' rights (to educate, to impose necessary discipline, keep students safe, etc.)

But to say that there is no freedom of speech in schools is really not right. And to say, based on the information in the article, that these particular students were sent home in order to preserve educational objectives and impose discipline really assumes facts about their purpose in wearing the shirts as well as the general reaction. Was there rumbling going on? Did it seem likely the t-shirt wearers were going to get beat up? Or was this an overzealous school administrator seeing incendiary behavior where there was none?

(And no, it is not enough that some students were "offended" by the t-shirts. If the school was simply trying to avoid having some students be offended by other students....well, that's not enough to outweigh the intrusion on the t-shirt wearers' first amendment rights.)
posted by devinemissk at 11:56 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Mexican is a race now?

I don't know, but say, have you ever been to Talladega? Now that's a race!
posted by clearly at 12:01 PM on May 6, 2010

Mexican is a race now?

Yeah, well, you're right, technically it should be Uto-Aztecan, but...

Seriously, race is such a bullshit concept anyway, why the hell not? I mean if "white" can be a race, why not "Mexican"?
posted by Pollomacho at 12:03 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

I call BS. A couple days from now this will be debunked.
posted by toastchee at 12:03 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

> Mexican is a race now?
> posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 2:51 PM on May 6 [2 favorites +] [!]

google "la raza"
posted by jfuller at 12:04 PM on May 6, 2010

> Is there anything worse than shirts with the american flag on them?

Budweiser Bud Light shirts
posted by gompa at 12:12 PM on May 6, 2010

I learned how to make words blink in this post!
posted by jnnla at 12:13 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Cinco De Mayo falls about the same as St. Patrick's Day in my estimation, a celebration of heritage. I wouldn't think wearing an American flag shirt would be incendiary during that day.

Yes, but try wearing orange.
posted by TedW at 12:18 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Cinco De Mayo falls about the same as St. Patrick's Day in my estimation, a celebration of heritage. I wouldn't think wearing an American flag shirt would be incendiary during that day.

I'm sorry—which region of the US was formerly a part of Ireland?
posted by Sys Rq at 12:19 PM on May 6, 2010

google "la raza"

Wrong word!
posted by Pollomacho at 12:28 PM on May 6, 2010

I'm sorry—which region of the US was formerly a part of Ireland?

My great-great-great grandmother's heart.
posted by inturnaround at 12:32 PM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

Assuming automatically that a person is a racist for wearing American flag clothing is not a defensible assumption, I don't believe.

No, but when white people organize a group to wear American flag clothing specifically on a day celebrating Mexican history, and believes the message they're sending by wearing the flags is so important that they refuse to even take off a bandanna? At this point assuming they're not being racist is a bit of a stretch.
posted by kafziel at 12:33 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

posted by kafziel No, but when white people organize a group to wear American flag clothing specifically on a day celebrating Mexican history, and believes the message they're sending by wearing the flags is so important that they refuse to even take off a bandanna? At this point assuming they're not being racist is a bit of a stretch.

Two of the students have Mexican parents.
posted by mattdidthat at 12:37 PM on May 6, 2010 [8 favorites]

Geez, like the tea baggers need something else to get upset about.
posted by zzazazz at 12:37 PM on May 6, 2010

School admin person reporting in here.

There's rules and then there's the spirit behind the rules.

For example, the rule might be "no drugs of any kind on school." That might be the way the rule is written, but the spirit of that rule is to prevent kids from getting high in school - not to allow a Vice Principal to strip search and 8th grader in search of Advil.

In a similar way, there is authority and then there is the reason why that authority exists.

For some, authority is an end in and of itself. I think this point of view lacks wisdom in the same way that strip searching an 8th grader in search of Advil demonstrates a lack of wisdom.

On the Platonic plane of ideals, school authority figures are present to help ensure that the educational goals of the school are being met. Sometimes, this means addressing situations that involve unruly students.

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are nuanced ways of dealing with this sort of situation that address and potentially defuse it.

I'm not going to make assumptions about the kids intentions here, but its clear the administrator in question perceived there shirts as a potential problem.

Now, its possible that the students lipped off or did something else that ultimately resulted in their being sent home. The evidence presented so far, however, does not support that. It suggests that this particular school admin only had the "get the hell out of my school" tool ready at his or her disposal - and, as we all know, if the only tool you have is a taser, every problem looks like a Phillies fan running around in the outfield.

So, what I'm getting at here, is that the administrator had it within his or her power to address this situation in a way that would make the situation worse or to address it in any number of ways that would address the issue in a (dare I write) teachable way. He or she chose the former and, thus, we're all discussing it today.

An educational administrator who is strictly a banhammer person and not an actual educator is going to, nine times out of ten, make the situation worse in the long term - and help to create another generation of kids who view school as a place where ideas go to die.

In a sense, that is the tragedy here.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:40 PM on May 6, 2010 [12 favorites]

specifically on a day celebrating Mexican history

You seem to have quite the confidence they dressed differently on May 5 than they did May 4, but I don't see where you're getting this idea is fact.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 12:43 PM on May 6, 2010

At this point assuming they're not being racist is a bit of a stretch.'

Only if you take the important message to be something racist in itself - which is exactly the item at issue. They might have been sending a non-racist message that they believe to be extremely important. Also, while it seems intuitively likely that the message is something to do with the specific date, that doesn't much narrow down the possible messages.

Hell, to pick one that's not racist but most people on here would think of as stupid, maybe the kids have a vague view of Cinco de Mayo as something to do with freedom for Mexico and have chosen to wear an American flag get-up as a way to protest the Obama administration / demand "freedom" for the US. I doubt this is what was going on, but this sort of connection doesn't require much intellectual firepower and isn't any more convoluted than a lot of other protest metaphors/analogies/allusions. There's a whole bunch of possible meanings here, and we need a lot more facts to begin narrowing it down.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 12:44 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

200+ comments speculating on events on the basis of 2 very similar and very incomplete news articles.

Popcorn anyone?
posted by charles kaapjes at 12:54 PM on May 6, 2010

wow, I read most of this thread before realizing that this incident took place at my high school. I grew up in Morgan Hill and a very similar incident took place when I was attending Live Oak High School: a bunch of the racist, redneck students showed up on Cinco de Mayo with American flags in an attempt to piss off the largely Latino student body. It worked and there was a huge fight at lunch and a lot of the flag bearers got the shit beat out of them. So I can understand why the kids were sent home. It is so great to see my hometown in the news!
posted by wolfewarrior at 1:01 PM on May 6, 2010 [4 favorites]

If the kids had done this on, say, St. Patrick's Day - would any of the students of Irish descent have noticed, let alone asked for an apology?

Better to ask these kids whether they would have bothered to do this on St. Patrick's Day. And when they say no - and they will say no (or perhaps "umm, I dunno") - ask them why not. And then you'll get the heart of the matter.
posted by schoolgirl report at 1:06 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

For reals, wolfewarrior?
posted by Mister_A at 1:31 PM on May 6, 2010

Also, if you were deliberately dressed in a way that could be construed as representing a gang affiliation or calculated to provoke a hostile reaction from some other population of students, that was considered disruptive behavior, and yeah, you could get in trouble for doing that and it didn't make national news

That skirt? She was totally asking for it.
posted by rodgerd at 1:32 PM on May 6, 2010

Another article from the San Jose Mercury News.

As to the point the flag-wearers were making:

"We're happy about Arizona's law, and you bet we're fired up," said Julie Fagerstrom, whose son, Dominic Maciel, wore a shirt bearing the stripes and stars until he was asked by Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez to flip it inside out or go home. Dominic's father, who is no longer really in the picture, Fagerstrom said, is a first-generation Mexican-American. ...

Diana Dariano, whose son Matthew wore a U.S. Constitution T-shirt, acknowledged that the friends wore the clothes to make a point: They love their country and believe in legal immigration.

So yeah, these kids are ax-grindy -- or more accurately, probably, their parents are ax-grindy and are grinding their axes vicariously. Still, the First Amendment protects their ax-grinding.

But then again ..... did these kids' parents not think that their kids were going to raise hell by doing this? "You bet we're fired up!"
posted by blucevalo at 1:38 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

From an outsider's perspective, all that this story says to me is that racial relations in the US remain almost incomprehensible to me -- whether or not the kids were legitimately sent home, the fact is that the wearing of the flag of a country largely composed of immigrants is interpreted by a not insignificant number of those immigrants as a symbol of something 'bad', at least in certain contexts. It is also interpreted by others as a symbol of anti-Other. There's something very broken there, on either of those sides.
posted by modernnomad at 1:41 PM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

They might have been sending a non-racist message that they believe to be extremely important.

In view of what I just posted? Not likely that it was non-racist.

There's a whole bunch of possible meanings here, and we need a lot more facts to begin narrowing it down.

Again, not really. It's pretty much a "Yay Arizona illegal immigrant bashing!" statement. "You betcha we're fired up!"
posted by blucevalo at 1:44 PM on May 6, 2010

That skirt? She was totally asking for it.

Well, at my school, it was less like this, and more like big groups of redneck kids who liked to jump scrawny punk kids in the parking lot all wearing t-shirts with big confederate flags on them that read "heritage not hate" during black history month. But I guess either way, that analogy is still a lazy piece of crap.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:48 PM on May 6, 2010

In view of what I just posted? Not likely that it was non-racist.

Agreed, now that the article with more background is up.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:50 PM on May 6, 2010

Yeah, I went to school there and grew up in the town. The kids who brought the flags to my school were assholes with delusion of white supremacy and racial tensions had been brewing for awhile before the fight happened.
posted by wolfewarrior at 1:51 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Ok, I think you're being an asshole, but still think you' have a right to be an asshole.

Fair enough! Isn't free speech dandy?
posted by EarBucket at 1:53 PM on May 6, 2010

What an excellent way to show national pride & stick it to those immigrants!

I'm gonna copy their idea, and wear an Australian flag t-shirt on New Zealand's national day!!

That'll show 'em.
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:55 PM on May 6, 2010

200+ comments speculating on events on the basis of 2 very similar and very incomplete news articles.

Popcorn anyone?

Knee-jerk responses to a culture war tempest in a teapot like this are so easy that I like to read what the local paper has to say about the incident instead of just relying on AP wire reports (or distortions of distortions of AP wire reports). If you look at MorganHillTimes.com, there are already three good articles on this controversy:

Five Morgan Hill students sent home for wearing American flag T-shirts

Updated: Teens forced to remove American T-shirts ignites national media attention

Hispanic students march through downtown for respect

Here are some highlights from the articles:

*The five teens were sitting at a table outside during their brunch break about 10:10 a.m. when Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez asked two boys to take off their American flag bandannas. The boys said they complied. In the same conversation, sophomore Dominic Maciel said, Rodriguez told the group to "walk with him to the office." (This is contrary to reports that said the boys did not take off their American flag bandannas.)

*Dariano said other students were wearing American flags but since they were a group of five "we were the easiest target to cause trouble" according to Rodriguez, he said.

*One Mexican-American student, freshman Laura Ponce, had a Mexican flag painted on her face and chest, peaking out of her low-cut shirt. She did it because, "it's our day, the only day we can show our spirit." A school administrator took away the Mexican flag she was carrying as she was waiting to go home. Ponce said: "not cool."

"There was a lot of drama going on today," Ponce said. Some were saying "Mexico sucks" while Mexican-American students responded in their second language.

*A parent of two Live Oak students, Teresa Casillas, said the American-flag wearing students were yelling "We live in America!" at the brunch break. She said her children were upset by their behavior at school, calling it disrespectful.

"We're all offended by it," Casillas said. She said parents of all ethnicities she spoke with felt that way. "Morgan Hill is too small of a community to start any racial wars. This is just bringing it out a little bit more."

*About 200 Hispanic teens are marching in Morgan Hill yelling "We want respect!" and "Si se puede!" in reaction to a controversy ignited when the Live Oak High School principal effectively sent four students home for wearing T-shirts with American flags on them during Cinco de Mayo.

Mexican-American students felt the students were being disrespectful on the only day they celebrate their heritage while students sporting red, white and blue said it violated their First Amendment rights.

*The four students met with Assistant Superintendent Jay Totter Wednesday evening at the district headquarters and they said Totter said what happened to them was wrong and "they would take care of it."

It's unclear at this time what was meant by that comment.

*Over at Gilroy High School, Mexican and American patriotic colors commingled peacefully Wednesday, Principal Marco Sanchez said.

"Kids were in good spirits," he said. "I was out on campus most of the day and didn't see anything that was abnormal."

He reported no disciplinary issues as a result of Mexican or American patriotism. Plenty of students donned both both countries' national colors but none were sent home for wearing green, red, white, blue or any combination thereof, he said. Doing so would be "outrageous," he said.

"We're not going to be sending kids home for wearing American flags or wearing patriotic colors," Sanchez said. "That's discriminatory."
posted by jonp72 at 2:05 PM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]

From an outsider's perspective, all that this story says to me is that racial relations in the US remain almost incomprehensible to me

Two things are key to understanding U.S. race relations:

(1) The Victim Complex. Some significant portion of minorities and their pandering liberals will read race into absolutely everything even when it has nothing to do with race - being against illegal immigration is racist, free lunches are racist, liking the Cubs is racist.

(2) The Invisible Knapsack. Some significant portion of whites, especially traditionally-white (meaning not-Jewish, not-Slavic, not-Mediterranean, and yes not-Irish) straight men, will ignore race in absolutely everything even when it has everything to do with race - hiring practices are just fine, profiling is just fine, rural high school sports teams that "happen to be" all white are just fine.

Almost every racial controversy can be boiled down to one of these two things, or their confluence.
posted by thesmophoron at 2:12 PM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

I can understand how a pro-assimilation Mexican-American can make learning English a priority and be for better border security, but to be in favor of Arizona's S.B. 1070 is beyond my comprehension. It's a license to hassle all people of color, even 10th generation US Citizens.
posted by morganw at 2:25 PM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Most of my impression of Morgan Hill comes from a tv and radio commercial that ran when I lived in nearby Santa Cruz, for a furniture store, which pronounced "Gílroy" and "Mórgan Híl" in the most Chicano sounding way possible. It's funny sometimes how the biggest Chicano enclaves in CA are in non-Spanish named places. So Santa Cruz, Monterey: mostly white but Watsonville, Sand City: predominately brown.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:41 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'd say this sounds like another good reason for an ACLU contribution, fight the Arizona shit while also fighting the censorship ship. :)
posted by jeffburdges at 2:45 PM on May 6, 2010

(1) The Victim Complex. Some significant portion of minorities and their pandering liberals will read race into absolutely everything even when it has nothing to do with race - being against illegal immigration is racist, free lunches are racist, liking the Cubs is racist.

(3) Blaming The Victim
posted by Sys Rq at 2:46 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

"Arizona now requires anyone passing through or living in their state to carry papers proving citizenship that can be produced at the command of any law enforcement officers. Do you approve or disapprove of this requirement?" (Cite)

Approve
ALL: 48
DEM: 10
REP: 85
IND: 37

Disapprove
ALL: 44
DEM: 88
REP: 11
IND: 41

Not Sure
ALL: 8
DEM: 2
REP: 4
IND: 22

Now which side is it again that's trying to make the government interfere more in our lives like some nightmarish Nazi Big Brother dictatorship? (Or: "how's that "less government" thing working out for ya?")

But of course, they'll never stop you to ask to see your papers, right? Right? Because you're a real American?
posted by saulgoodman at 2:47 PM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

An educational administrator who is strictly a banhammer person and not an actual educator is going to, nine times out of ten, make the situation worse in the long term

Yeah, this was a teachable moment, flushed down the toilet.

In view of what I just posted? Not likely that it was non-racist.

So, what, Dominic Maciel is a self-hating Mexicano?

There's elements of racism, but really this is a microcosmic culture clash that’s been blown all out of proportion. School is one thing, for all practical purposes ‘broad discretionary powers’ = STFU unless you want to take it to court. Here, given all the other stories, looks like they were trying to mediate something not address the statement.

But generally, I don’t want the government (and schools are a government entity) to enforce cultural mores on holidays. We have Mexican (and other) flags during 4th of July parades. I'm fine with that. And the provocative statement thing cuts no ice with me - some gay kids can’t wear their shirts because they’re provocative and they might start fights?

You make the standard about the statement, your going to have inequity and perception of inequity.
Still, making a statement is one thing (and should be protected). Belligerence, not maintaining a healthy, respectful discussion by not focusing comments on the issues, topics, and facts at hand—but at other members of the country, different story.
The kids wearing the "Border Patrol" T-shirts, they’re being fighty dicks. Doesn’t matter much what day that's on.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:55 PM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

"but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today."

"We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

"We" and "Them". I think this school has bigger problems than a few idjits wearing t-shirts.
posted by madajb at 3:18 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

posted by madajb I think this school has bigger problems than a few idjits wearing t-shirts.

The biggest problem/idiot is the vice-principal, who isn't familiar with California Education Code.
posted by mattdidthat at 3:44 PM on May 6, 2010

Some significant portion of whites, especially traditionally-white (meaning not-Jewish, not-Slavic, not-Mediterranean, and yes not-Irish)...

Wait. Irish people aren't white? *Looks at copier-paper white skin* Well knock me over with a feather.
posted by contessa at 3:58 PM on May 6, 2010

Wait. Irish people aren't white? *Looks at copier-paper white skin* Well knock me over with a feather.
posted by contessa at 3:58 PM on May 6

I'm sure you're joking but here you go just in case.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 4:03 PM on May 6, 2010

Sadly, from some of the quotes, it sounds like these kids were being anti-Mexican jerks rather than making some worthwhile point about how we ought to be able to celebrate United States citizenship and Mexican heritage at the same time.

But you have to hand it to them. It's hard to imagine a more perfect troll. The right-wing pundits are going to use this for decades as an example of how those foreigners are ruining our precious way of life.
posted by straight at 4:03 PM on May 6, 2010

You guys are totally overlooking the threat to public safety posed by incendiary clothing.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 4:16 PM on May 6, 2010

I'm sure you're joking but here you go just in case.

Oh, well, if there's a book title... ;) (tl;dr)
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:22 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

(3) Blaming The Victim

Who is the victim of my liking the Cubs over the White Sox?
posted by thesmophoron at 4:31 PM on May 6, 2010

Seriously Metafilter? I can't get past the first few comments, as you all fall over yourselves to label the boys wearing American flags as jerks. Over Cinco de Mayo?? You are all ridiculous, and this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Enjoy your uber-liberal echo chamber. What a bunch of tools. Matt, I hope you are proud of what this site has become.
posted by genefinder at 4:45 PM on May 6, 2010 [4 favorites]

Buh-bye ... don't let the door ... ah, you know the rest.
posted by ericb at 4:50 PM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]

Personally, I think that anybody wearing a flag, ever, is a jerk.

Doing so to make a point on somebody else's national day is just the wad on top.

Seriously, what's the point in being so churlish? Any traveller will tell you how awesome it is when you happen to be in town for a local festival or celebration. Join in the fun instead of being a dick about it, and everybody's better off.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:31 PM on May 6, 2010

Who is the victim of my liking the Cubs over the White Sox?


Only you, friend.
posted by Mister_A at 6:15 PM on May 6, 2010

I'm in with genefinder on this one. I couldn't read past the first dozen or so comments before realizing that Metafilter is often times incapable of carrying on honest discussions without devolving into a cesspool of snark and holier-than-thou attitudes.
posted by tgrundke at 6:17 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

I agree that those shirts are horribly offensive. Old Navy? Come the fuck on.
posted by koeselitz at 6:51 PM on May 6, 2010

The actions of the schools administrators in this case were totally out of line. At the very least these kids are owed a public apology from the school district. Come to think of it the entire student body, Mexican-American students in particular, are owed an apology for the racism implicit in the administration's action. I mean it seems obvious that the faculty consider teenagers of Mexican descent nothing more than violent thugs with poor impulse control. Damn those Latins and their fiery tempers amirite?
posted by MikeMc at 6:57 PM on May 6, 2010

I agree that those shirts are horribly offensive. Old Navy? Come the fuck on.

If you look at this photo, two of the T-shirts don't even have American flags on them. They're just red, white, and blue shirts you'd get at Abercrombie & Fitch, not Ye Olde Nativist Shoppe. Kids may have said some racially offensive things to each other, but those shirts are not offensive.
posted by jonp72 at 7:02 PM on May 6, 2010

Cinco de Mayo is really weird. It's like if Massachusetts (and Mexico, in solidarity) celebrated Concord Day on April 19th because that's when American Revolutionaries won the Battle of Concord.

Would this kind of stink be raised if those kids had worn those shirts on September 16th?
posted by Jpfed at 7:10 PM on May 6, 2010

In all fairness, the U.S. flag is gang colors. It's just, you know -- it's a really *big* gang.
posted by webmutant at 7:10 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]

Kids may have said some racially offensive things to each other, but those shirts are not offensive.

Here in Alachua County, where students from Dove World Outreach Center (a church) have been sent to school wearing t-shirts that said "Islam is of the Devil," and where Hawthorne Middle High School (a poor, rural, largely minority population) is undergoing upheaval because the new principal refused to allow Dixie Outfitters to distribute Confederate flag apparel on campus (actually, she has banned all graphic and slogan t-shirts, regardless of message), the school district is hoping to change from dress code to uniforms for all grade levels, K-12.
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:15 PM on May 6, 2010

TedW wrote: "Cinco de Mayo is primarily a holiday that exists to sell beer."

I know for a fact that this is true. ;)

And on the subject, I have a sneaking suspicion that the shirts/bandannas themselves were not the real issue.
posted by wierdo at 8:12 PM on May 6, 2010

I live in Morgan Hill, and have for most of my life. It's a residential and agricultural community, and like many suburbs in California, there is a bit of racial tension. I don't know if that's what prompted the flag wearing kids, but it might have been. Might not have been too.

Really, all this says is that the Live Oak administrator made what seems now like a bad judgment call, and then the district repudiated that.

It's a hell of a lot better then when Parents had to sue the Morgan Hill Unified School District for not dealing with anti-gay harassment. That lead to a landmark ruling on such harassment incidentally.

This though? I expect any suit will be settled out of court. They learned their lesson.

Feel free to mefi mail me about Morgan Hill.
posted by gryftir at 9:33 PM on May 6, 2010

Cinco de Mayo is not a manufactured holiday.

I've always heard that it is an American (as in US-American) celebration of Mexico. So of course it isn't a national holiday or celebrated much in Mexico.

When the Mexican army defeated the French army its affect was to keep the French from sending supplies to the Confederate army for a year until the end of the Civil War. After the Civil War, the Union Army rushed arms supplies to Mexico so they could finally kick out the French.

It represented a two-nation effort to finally rid the influence of European armies in the Americas.

So we American's should continue to celebrate Cinco de Mayo and our friendship with our Southern ally.
posted by eye of newt at 11:00 PM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]

jonp72 thank you for bringing sanity and research to this thread. Let me recap what those expanded articles tell us:

These kids were in fact making a political point. Whether or not it was 'assholish' depends on whether you agree with them.

The school administrators freaked out, possibly because of past incidents, or possibly because of a fear of violent mexicans, but they freaked out on a small group of kids out of many wearing the shirts (and one girl wearing a mexican flag too just for good measure) and now the rest of the district is like *FACEPALM*

Other schools in the area had no issues with US and Mexican shirts being worn together. Rational disagreement about values is what it means to be an American--even if you're sure the other side is perniciously wrong.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:05 AM on May 7, 2010 [2 favorites]

Wait, so a group of teenage boys coordinated their outfits to send a message, and when they got caught they were all "WHAT?? It's just the FLAG, can't I wear the FLAG?? I'm AMERICAN and I can wear the FLAG in AMERICA!"

and you bought it? Really?

Did your big sister's argument of "I'm not touching you" sway you too?
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 5:58 AM on May 7, 2010 [4 favorites]

Rational disagreement about values is what it means to be an American

Or a member of most democracies in the world; it's not particular to the US.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:06 AM on May 7, 2010

It's like if Massachusetts (and Mexico, in solidarity) celebrated Concord Day on April 19th because that's when American Revolutionaries won the Battle of Concord.

FWIW, Massachusetts does celebrate an official holiday every April 19. It's called Patriot's Day. Oh, and the minutemen did not "win" at Lexington or Concord that day, but they did inflict massive damage on the Red Coats as they marched back to Boston later in the day.
posted by ericb at 7:47 AM on May 7, 2010

ericb- I'm not saying it's weird for Massachusetts to celebrate April 19th; I thought it would be weird if Mexico also celebrated it, in the same way that it's weird that the USA celebrates Cinco de Mayo.

In any case, eye of newt clarified what America has to celebrate about Cinco de Mayo.
posted by Jpfed at 8:35 AM on May 7, 2010

The school administrators freaked out, possibly because of past incidents, or possibly because of a fear of violent mexicans, but they freaked out on a small group of kids out of many wearing the shirts (and one girl wearing a mexican flag too just for good measure) and now the rest of the district is like *FACEPALM*

The kids were also harassing mexican students, shouting shit about "We live in America!" at them. They were being disruptive and trying to start fights. That's more than enough basis for administrators to act.
posted by kafziel at 8:59 AM on May 7, 2010

Wait. Irish people aren't white?

Since the 1100’s no. Only been a (relatively) recent thing.

Which, at the heart, is the cultural thing here. Long history of that (historically, long arguments about who's 'white' and who isn't). It's about privilege.
S'why you have 'white' people asking why they have to be stopped at airports. S'why you have illegal immigrants demanding drivers licenses and other legal benefits of citizenship while flouting the law.

I'm willing to take some of the kids statements (through their parents) at face value. We do, in fact, live in America. The only real determination is whether one believes that is an inclusive or an exclusive statement.
In this case I think both sides are being exclusive and demanding privilege (albeit of different kinds, and obviously harassment is harassment not communication).

The school administration (in the main instance here) had an opportunity to make a statement about inclusion and unity that regards our plurality. They didn't.

That makes the problem worse. Indeed, so does the knee jerk assumption that all things U.S. are evil and oppressive and any statement made regarding American values (like, y'know E Pluribus Unum which has come to mean the American tossed salad that is ethnic diversity in a unified nation).

Sometimes genuine communication requires confrontation (to paraphrase Stephen Biko) and doing an injustice to rectify an injustice is silly. Even in the name of peace.
Peace is not just the absence of conflict, it's the presence of justice.

But that's all more highfalutin' than this particular mess really deserves.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:49 AM on May 7, 2010

Fox News interviewed two of the students this morning and they will probably rebroadcast the piece this afternoon. The boys said they were not in school today, but expect to return Monday.
posted by longsleeves at 9:50 AM on May 7, 2010

It turns out there are at least three Live Oak High Schools in California. The Live Oak High School in Sutter County, California had nothing to do with the incident, but recently received a threatening phone call promising to bomb or shoot at the school. Snark if you want, but this has already shown the potential to get very ugly.
posted by jonp72 at 12:17 PM on May 7, 2010

Sigh... It was only a matter of time: Tea Partiers Plan Rally in Morgan Hill Saturday.
posted by jonp72 at 12:34 PM on May 7, 2010

Tea Party Turns on Roger Ebert, Mocks His Cancer
posted by homunculus at 12:46 PM on May 9, 2010

What's funny...is that the American Legion has a lot of "power" over deciding what's the right thing to do with the flag, how to handle it, etc, and I have to say as a kid I really enjoyed all the pomp and circumstance of a good flag ceremony and I still like them today.

What's interesting, is that wearing an American flag is considered desecration and shouldn't be done. Your Flag MC Hammer Pants are as bad a defamation as dropping a flag on the ground, or burning it, whatever, at least in the eyes of the American Legion and the VFW.

That said, free speech is free speech.
posted by TomMelee at 10:09 AM on May 11, 2010