Are you forgetting that you came to me for a job?
June 3, 2010 1:48 PM Subscribe
Even people with advanced degrees make poor life choices sometimes.
posted by GuyZero at 1:54 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by GuyZero at 1:54 PM on June 3, 2010
Dammit, this is why one should check links before posting. That was supposed to be the "via" link. Full story is here.
posted by cereselle at 1:54 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by cereselle at 1:54 PM on June 3, 2010
Neither of them can write, if you ask me. Fascinating that they don't seem to see that.
posted by heyho at 1:57 PM on June 3, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by heyho at 1:57 PM on June 3, 2010 [4 favorites]
How did both of these people get through law school without the ability to write a grammatically coherent e-mail?
posted by edbles at 1:59 PM on June 3, 2010 [14 favorites]
posted by edbles at 1:59 PM on June 3, 2010 [14 favorites]
I am confused as to why either of them thought this was a good idea.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:00 PM on June 3, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 2:00 PM on June 3, 2010 [7 favorites]
I love this so much.
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:00 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:00 PM on June 3, 2010
I certainly wouldn't want that guy as my employee, but I also would not want that woman as my boss.
posted by insectosaurus at 2:01 PM on June 3, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by insectosaurus at 2:01 PM on June 3, 2010 [4 favorites]
They deserve each other.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:02 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:02 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
The youtube response has been removed. It's more fun when they are racists.
posted by cjorgensen at 2:04 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by cjorgensen at 2:04 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
I also like how they both tell each other they should stop replying, and then continue replying.
Law Student:
At this point, your reply emails are no longer necessary, and serve no
point. E-mail continues.
Lawyer:
I am not going to continue to argue with you which is why I will not
address each of your comical points. E-mail continues.
posted by edbles at 2:05 PM on June 3, 2010 [12 favorites]
Law Student:
At this point, your reply emails are no longer necessary, and serve no
point. E-mail continues.
Lawyer:
I am not going to continue to argue with you which is why I will not
address each of your comical points. E-mail continues.
posted by edbles at 2:05 PM on June 3, 2010 [12 favorites]
I don't think that lawyers are more likely to be assholes. I just think they're less likely to KNOW that they're assholes.
posted by desjardins at 2:05 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 2:05 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
The Via link has a response from the attorney in the comments, explaining her secret shopper arrangement and expanding upon the incident.
posted by zarq at 2:05 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by zarq at 2:05 PM on June 3, 2010
I wish he'd been hired. They deserve each other.
posted by Metroid Baby at 2:08 PM on June 3, 2010
Were my writing samples not to your standard because I did do very well in that class and that’s why I brought them to give you a sample of what I can do.Well, he got the spelling and capitalization right, at least, and he used "your" correctly. Half credit.
posted by Metroid Baby at 2:08 PM on June 3, 2010
Looks like it's down. But I want to see lawyers embarrassing the profession!
I guess this'll do in a pinch.
posted by naju at 2:13 PM on June 3, 2010
I guess this'll do in a pinch.
posted by naju at 2:13 PM on June 3, 2010
It's like there's some point in law school where they shut the door, close the blinds and tell the students:
"Look, here's the deal. The judgment is the only thing that matters. Nothing else. There are no rules, except for those actually written in the books, and even those are suspect. So, go ahead and call someone names, call them foolish, do whatever. Be a jerk. Betray a friend. Piss someone off. It doesn't matter. Go for it."
The class might as well be called "Practical Nihilism 101." It must be very a very liberating realization for some people.
Finally, they get to be the asshole that, deep down inside, they always suspected they were.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:15 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Look, here's the deal. The judgment is the only thing that matters. Nothing else. There are no rules, except for those actually written in the books, and even those are suspect. So, go ahead and call someone names, call them foolish, do whatever. Be a jerk. Betray a friend. Piss someone off. It doesn't matter. Go for it."
The class might as well be called "Practical Nihilism 101." It must be very a very liberating realization for some people.
Finally, they get to be the asshole that, deep down inside, they always suspected they were.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:15 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's like there's some point in law school where they shut the door, close the blinds and tell the students:
"Look, here's the deal. The judgment is the only thing that matters. Nothing else. There are no rules, except for those actually written in the books, and even those are suspect. So, go ahead and call someone names, call them foolish, do whatever. Be a jerk. Betray a friend. Piss someone off. It doesn't matter. Go for it."
The class might as well be called "Practical Nihilism 101." It must be very a very liberating realization for some people.
Finally, they get to be the asshole that, deep down inside, they always suspected they were.
People definitely need a class to learn this behavior, and certainly won't spontaneously do it for something they really want, if they are not worried about the consequences.
posted by grobstein at 2:19 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Look, here's the deal. The judgment is the only thing that matters. Nothing else. There are no rules, except for those actually written in the books, and even those are suspect. So, go ahead and call someone names, call them foolish, do whatever. Be a jerk. Betray a friend. Piss someone off. It doesn't matter. Go for it."
The class might as well be called "Practical Nihilism 101." It must be very a very liberating realization for some people.
Finally, they get to be the asshole that, deep down inside, they always suspected they were.
People definitely need a class to learn this behavior, and certainly won't spontaneously do it for something they really want, if they are not worried about the consequences.
posted by grobstein at 2:19 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Wow! Bitchy, bitchy, bitchy, both of them.
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:20 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:20 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Looks like it's down. But I want to see lawyers embarrassing the profession!
You mean like the Supreme Court?
posted by shakespeherian at 2:22 PM on June 3, 2010
You mean like the Supreme Court?
posted by shakespeherian at 2:22 PM on June 3, 2010
It's like there's some point in law school where they shut the door, close the blinds and tell the students:
No, would never happen. That would actually make law school a halfway tolerable experience.
posted by blucevalo at 2:22 PM on June 3, 2010
No, would never happen. That would actually make law school a halfway tolerable experience.
posted by blucevalo at 2:22 PM on June 3, 2010
That would actually make law school a halfway tolerable experience.
Well that and, speaking from experience, kicking out all of the 2L ideological warriors who have never met a nanny they would not happily underpay whilst screeching about equality of opportunity :)
I thought I met every insufferable Ayn Randian in undergrad. Then I went to law school.
posted by joe lisboa at 2:31 PM on June 3, 2010 [14 favorites]
Well that and, speaking from experience, kicking out all of the 2L ideological warriors who have never met a nanny they would not happily underpay whilst screeching about equality of opportunity :)
I thought I met every insufferable Ayn Randian in undergrad. Then I went to law school.
posted by joe lisboa at 2:31 PM on June 3, 2010 [14 favorites]
It's like there's some point in law school where they shut the door, close the blinds and tell the students:
Ehh...actually we get told the exact opposite. And I've heard multiple judges say that that kind of behavior is the quickest way to get on their bad side.
posted by jedicus at 2:32 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Ehh...actually we get told the exact opposite. And I've heard multiple judges say that that kind of behavior is the quickest way to get on their bad side.
posted by jedicus at 2:32 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Well, the site does appear to be down or dragging severely.
Click Here for a summary on the e-mail chain.
The guy's name is Jesse J. Clark, and he is currently doing a self-Stalinization of everything associated to him... Youtube videos conspicuously removed (good move, I saw these two days ago), Linked In has suddenly gone blank, Facebook, etc.
Probably a good idea if he still wants to work... anywhere.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 2:33 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Click Here for a summary on the e-mail chain.
The guy's name is Jesse J. Clark, and he is currently doing a self-Stalinization of everything associated to him... Youtube videos conspicuously removed (good move, I saw these two days ago), Linked In has suddenly gone blank, Facebook, etc.
Probably a good idea if he still wants to work... anywhere.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 2:33 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
edbles: "How did both of these people get through law school without the ability to write a grammatically coherent e-mail?"
Were you held accountable for correct usage in law school or, for that matter, at your undergraduate institution?
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 2:36 PM on June 3, 2010
Were you held accountable for correct usage in law school or, for that matter, at your undergraduate institution?
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 2:36 PM on June 3, 2010
The original site's down, I can only read the summary. How did these emails get published in the first place?
posted by Think_Long at 2:46 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by Think_Long at 2:46 PM on June 3, 2010
On a recent job application for a waitstaff job, under "Special Skills that would make you a good fit for this job" I listed my "My good rapport with customers, dashing good looks and debonair manner".
Considering they were the people who asked me "If you were to be animal, which one would you be and why", I would have thought they would have got back to me.
posted by dunkadunc at 2:47 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Considering they were the people who asked me "If you were to be animal, which one would you be and why", I would have thought they would have got back to me.
posted by dunkadunc at 2:47 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Were you held accountable for correct usage in law school or, for that matter, at your undergraduate institution?
I cannot speak for edbles, but I went to a 2nd Rate SUNY school, and I can assure you the professors were more than happy to knock your paper down a grade, or so, if the grammar was shitty. Though not mentioned, we knew where it fell in the rubric.
In my MLA based papers, it usually fell under "Presentation", and in my APA based ones, it was "Composition". My Research Methods professor, I recall, even went so far as to berate one woman in my class. I'm not quoting exactly, but it went something like this:
"When you go out there to find employment, realize most businesses haven't heard of ______ unless their cousin went here. I'm sorry, but if you begin a sentence in your cover letter with 'It's sorta like when,' every alumni after you will find his application immediately filed in the wastebasket. I'd be doing them a disservice by passing you for this garbage."
I should also note that when he was waving the paper in front of us, the laughter in the room built when we noticed the font used was something resembling 18 pt. Wide Latin.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 2:49 PM on June 3, 2010 [26 favorites]
I cannot speak for edbles, but I went to a 2nd Rate SUNY school, and I can assure you the professors were more than happy to knock your paper down a grade, or so, if the grammar was shitty. Though not mentioned, we knew where it fell in the rubric.
In my MLA based papers, it usually fell under "Presentation", and in my APA based ones, it was "Composition". My Research Methods professor, I recall, even went so far as to berate one woman in my class. I'm not quoting exactly, but it went something like this:
"When you go out there to find employment, realize most businesses haven't heard of ______ unless their cousin went here. I'm sorry, but if you begin a sentence in your cover letter with 'It's sorta like when,' every alumni after you will find his application immediately filed in the wastebasket. I'd be doing them a disservice by passing you for this garbage."
I should also note that when he was waving the paper in front of us, the laughter in the room built when we noticed the font used was something resembling 18 pt. Wide Latin.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 2:49 PM on June 3, 2010 [26 favorites]
Here is a cache of his blog that is no deleted.
Although this guy is a douchenozzle, I do think in was inappropriate for her to ask an applicant to "secret shop" a place he may soon be working.
posted by nestor_makhno at 2:52 PM on June 3, 2010
Although this guy is a douchenozzle, I do think in was inappropriate for her to ask an applicant to "secret shop" a place he may soon be working.
posted by nestor_makhno at 2:52 PM on June 3, 2010
that is no deleted.
Wow, I'm as bad as he is.
posted by nestor_makhno at 2:53 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Wow, I'm as bad as he is.
posted by nestor_makhno at 2:53 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Assuming the working lawyer was the one responsible for releasing this to the world, that lawyer is kind of a douche.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:56 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:56 PM on June 3, 2010
I should also note that when he was waving the paper in front of us, the laughter in the room built when we noticed the font used was something resembling 18 pt. Wide Latin.
Now I want to see pleadings set entirely in Comic Sans and written like the office announcements in the break room.
Your Motion is "Denied"
There'd have to be MS Word clip art as well.
posted by atrazine at 2:57 PM on June 3, 2010 [9 favorites]
Now I want to see pleadings set entirely in Comic Sans and written like the office announcements in the break room.
Your Motion is "Denied"
There'd have to be MS Word clip art as well.
posted by atrazine at 2:57 PM on June 3, 2010 [9 favorites]
Oh, and I should note that he was generally a nice guy, so this break of collegiate decorum was rare. The woman had made the mistake of asking, in front of the class, why her paper had "Proofread and Resubmit" in the place of a grade during a brief pause in his 10 minute rant; beginning with the following rhetorical question: "Did everyone sell their APA style manual back to the bookstore last semester?"
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 2:57 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 2:57 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Think_Long, the attorney posted it to a lawyer's forum. Hilarity ensued.
posted by cereselle at 2:58 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by cereselle at 2:58 PM on June 3, 2010
Think_Long, the attorney posted it to a lawyer's forum. Hilarity ensued.
In that case, I amend my earlier statement. The attorney is a douche.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:00 PM on June 3, 2010
In that case, I amend my earlier statement. The attorney is a douche.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:00 PM on June 3, 2010
Everyone thinks it's okay to post private communications on the web, huh? That's cool.
posted by grobstein at 3:02 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by grobstein at 3:02 PM on June 3, 2010
I think I know why the site may be down...
Look about 2/3rds into this blog post.
This Jesse J Clark guy should be sued for harrassment and general douchebaggery.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 3:04 PM on June 3, 2010
Look about 2/3rds into this blog post.
This Jesse J Clark guy should be sued for harrassment and general douchebaggery.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 3:04 PM on June 3, 2010
Apparently he got revenge on some of the people from Above The Law and The Docket by posting their details to craigslist.
Though, the link that sanko posts says that he didn't say it was amazing that the Massachusetts bar allows women to practice, but specifically her. If that's true, it looks a little better for him and much worse for the attorney.
posted by stavrogin at 3:05 PM on June 3, 2010
Though, the link that sanko posts says that he didn't say it was amazing that the Massachusetts bar allows women to practice, but specifically her. If that's true, it looks a little better for him and much worse for the attorney.
posted by stavrogin at 3:05 PM on June 3, 2010
IANAL, but the hiring lawyer comes off as much more of an asshole here. (Of course, I can't read the original link.)
Watch out before I file a 258E on your ass!
posted by mrgrimm at 3:06 PM on June 3, 2010
Watch out before I file a 258E on your ass!
posted by mrgrimm at 3:06 PM on June 3, 2010
That paralegal is basically unemployable. And that attorney needs to get some sense, and a sense of decorum and discretion too. I cannot believe she engaged in this exchange to the extent that she did. I most especially am horrified that she'd ask a job applicant, completely unknown to her, to give her a report on one of her employees. "Secret shopping" is quite unnecessary in law offices; if a client doesn't like how they're treated by staff they will most definitely loudly complain about it. The only one they don't ever complain about seems to be the attorney--no matter how much the attorney deserves it. If she had to enlist the aid of a complete stranger, who could be (and indeed was) a nutjob, then she simply doesn't have a practice big enough to support a legal assistant. Law school doesn't teach you grammar, spelling, factual research, common sense or how to actually practice law, run a business, and prepare and file pleadings. Nor does it magically bestow any ethics or sense of propriety.
posted by lphoenix at 3:06 PM on June 3, 2010 [16 favorites]
posted by lphoenix at 3:06 PM on June 3, 2010 [16 favorites]
Apparently he got revenge on some of the people from Above The Law and The Docket by posting their details to craigslist.
Oh man, this guy is in some sort of serious trouble if any of this can be proven to be even a little bit true. Using CL to harass someone who writes a blog post you don't agree with? Quit digging buddy.
posted by jessamyn at 3:13 PM on June 3, 2010
Oh man, this guy is in some sort of serious trouble if any of this can be proven to be even a little bit true. Using CL to harass someone who writes a blog post you don't agree with? Quit digging buddy.
posted by jessamyn at 3:13 PM on June 3, 2010
It's like there's some point in law school where they shut the door, close the blinds and tell the students...
Does anyone besides me remember the National Lampoon's New York Bar Exam parody?
Anyway, I just worked in a temp job with a guy who is studying to be a paralegal. Oh he was worse asshole than any lawyer I ever met. IMHO, once you pass your Bar exam or your paralegal, you should be required to take a course in Being a Human before you can practice.
posted by charlie don't surf at 3:14 PM on June 3, 2010
Does anyone besides me remember the National Lampoon's New York Bar Exam parody?
Anyway, I just worked in a temp job with a guy who is studying to be a paralegal. Oh he was worse asshole than any lawyer I ever met. IMHO, once you pass your Bar exam or your paralegal, you should be required to take a course in Being a Human before you can practice.
posted by charlie don't surf at 3:14 PM on June 3, 2010
Were you held accountable for correct usage in law school or, for that matter, at your undergraduate institution?
Yeah, but I was an English major, so...
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:21 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but I was an English major, so...
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:21 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Apparently he got revenge on some of the people from Above The Law and The Docket by posting their details to craigslist.
It isn't so much that he posted their details. He (allegedly) initiated a "casual encounter" post as if he were them. Which is nasty and wrong in and of itself. But considering what happened in February with Jebidiah Stipe, it's downright creepy.
posted by zarq at 3:23 PM on June 3, 2010
It isn't so much that he posted their details. He (allegedly) initiated a "casual encounter" post as if he were them. Which is nasty and wrong in and of itself. But considering what happened in February with Jebidiah Stipe, it's downright creepy.
posted by zarq at 3:23 PM on June 3, 2010
I came so close to going to law school. I was accepted and I had informed them of my decision to attend. I chose to give it a pass the summer before the start of class and I am now ever so grateful. Sure the work looks dreadfully boring, but having all those assholes for colleagues has to be the worst part.
-----
It doesn't look like the hiring attorney released his name. How did the guy's name get leaked?
posted by BigSky at 3:25 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
-----
It doesn't look like the hiring attorney released his name. How did the guy's name get leaked?
posted by BigSky at 3:25 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Everyone thinks it's okay to post private communications on the web, huh? That's cool.
Sounds like grobstein is hiding something. Insert smiley face here.
posted by joe lisboa at 3:27 PM on June 3, 2010
Sounds like grobstein is hiding something. Insert smiley face here.
posted by joe lisboa at 3:27 PM on June 3, 2010
It doesn't look like the hiring attorney released his name. How did the guy's name get leaked?
The hiring attorney is a woman, and she released the emails, with both of their names on them in postings to the Massachusetts Law forums website.
posted by zarq at 3:31 PM on June 3, 2010
The hiring attorney is a woman, and she released the emails, with both of their names on them in postings to the Massachusetts Law forums website.
posted by zarq at 3:31 PM on June 3, 2010
Sounds like grobstein is hiding something. Insert smiley face here.
You bet I am! This is terrifying!
posted by grobstein at 3:33 PM on June 3, 2010
You bet I am! This is terrifying!
posted by grobstein at 3:33 PM on June 3, 2010
"It doesn't look like the hiring attorney released his name. How did the guy's name get leaked?"
The hiring attorney is a woman, and she released the emails, with both of their names on them in postings to the Massachusetts Law forums website.
Thank you. I knew that the attorney is a woman, when I wrote "his name" I had the applicant in mind. When I saw the emails in The Docket with Applicant and Attorney in the addresses, I assumed they had been originally posted like that.
Anyway, posting his name was pretty vicious. I don't know if it makes him unemployable, but at the very least it has to be a big handicap in a job search, especially if he had originally wanted to stay in the region.
posted by BigSky at 3:42 PM on June 3, 2010
The hiring attorney is a woman, and she released the emails, with both of their names on them in postings to the Massachusetts Law forums website.
Thank you. I knew that the attorney is a woman, when I wrote "his name" I had the applicant in mind. When I saw the emails in The Docket with Applicant and Attorney in the addresses, I assumed they had been originally posted like that.
Anyway, posting his name was pretty vicious. I don't know if it makes him unemployable, but at the very least it has to be a big handicap in a job search, especially if he had originally wanted to stay in the region.
posted by BigSky at 3:42 PM on June 3, 2010
I guess what leaps out about these two folks is they share an astounding lack of sound judgment. I also am doing a happy dance that they apparently live 3000 miles away from me.
posted by bearwife at 3:48 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by bearwife at 3:48 PM on June 3, 2010
Thank you. I knew that the attorney is a woman, when I wrote "his name" I had the applicant in mind. When I saw the emails in The Docket with Applicant and Attorney in the addresses, I assumed they had been originally posted like that.
Would have been far better if she'd kept it anonymous. Or better yet, kept it off the net entirely.
Anyway, posting his name was pretty vicious. I don't know if it makes him unemployable, but at the very least it has to be a big handicap in a job search, especially if he had originally wanted to stay in the region.
I agree. By making what they said to each other public, she probably ruined his chances for a law career in Massachusetts. And made herself look like an ass.
I have no sympathy for him, though. Not after: "It’s amazing that the Ma Bar lets women practice law. Shouldn’t you be home cleaning and raising children." And the crap he pulled on Craigslist.
posted by zarq at 4:02 PM on June 3, 2010
Would have been far better if she'd kept it anonymous. Or better yet, kept it off the net entirely.
Anyway, posting his name was pretty vicious. I don't know if it makes him unemployable, but at the very least it has to be a big handicap in a job search, especially if he had originally wanted to stay in the region.
I agree. By making what they said to each other public, she probably ruined his chances for a law career in Massachusetts. And made herself look like an ass.
I have no sympathy for him, though. Not after: "It’s amazing that the Ma Bar lets women practice law. Shouldn’t you be home cleaning and raising children." And the crap he pulled on Craigslist.
posted by zarq at 4:02 PM on June 3, 2010
If I'm reading this correctly, he apparently posted two Craigslist ads for each of the bloggers that had written about him.
Kashmir Hill ended up getting over 30 phone calls in one hour before the post was deleted. The other blogger, a man, also had a fake nude modeling page about him. Mr. Clark cited that if the blogger took his post down, he would delete the modeling page.
After doing some research, Kashmir was able to determine that previous cases like this have ended up with the perpetrator doing a nice amount of time for such a crime.
Maybe after jail, Clark won't hate women so much after all.
posted by june made him a gemini at 4:05 PM on June 3, 2010
Kashmir Hill ended up getting over 30 phone calls in one hour before the post was deleted. The other blogger, a man, also had a fake nude modeling page about him. Mr. Clark cited that if the blogger took his post down, he would delete the modeling page.
After doing some research, Kashmir was able to determine that previous cases like this have ended up with the perpetrator doing a nice amount of time for such a crime.
Maybe after jail, Clark won't hate women so much after all.
posted by june made him a gemini at 4:05 PM on June 3, 2010
Finally managed to read the article, but this (to me) is the line (from the applicant) where it went off the rails:
"I am sure If I was wrong, my
professor would have corrected my on it since he has been practicing for
35 years, whereas you have only been practicing since 2002."
Up to then they'd both been civil and reasonable, and the lawyer was acknowledging that she was asking for something unusual and would understand if it wouldn't work for him ("I hate to waste anyone's time" and so on.) As soon as he took a cheap personal shot (and an incorrect one, given that she said she also checked with two other attorneys, whose experience level he had no way of knowing) he sealed his fate -- the news of his indiscretion was going to get circulated far and wide no matter what.
Had the lawyer been smarter, that's what she would have done -- said a courteous thanks-and-no-job-for-you, then spread the applicant's name around to her cohorts, along with a summary of her concerns, and let his (earned) reputation proceed him.
posted by davejay at 4:05 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
"I am sure If I was wrong, my
professor would have corrected my on it since he has been practicing for
35 years, whereas you have only been practicing since 2002."
Up to then they'd both been civil and reasonable, and the lawyer was acknowledging that she was asking for something unusual and would understand if it wouldn't work for him ("I hate to waste anyone's time" and so on.) As soon as he took a cheap personal shot (and an incorrect one, given that she said she also checked with two other attorneys, whose experience level he had no way of knowing) he sealed his fate -- the news of his indiscretion was going to get circulated far and wide no matter what.
Had the lawyer been smarter, that's what she would have done -- said a courteous thanks-and-no-job-for-you, then spread the applicant's name around to her cohorts, along with a summary of her concerns, and let his (earned) reputation proceed him.
posted by davejay at 4:05 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
While yeah, the lawyer isn't particularly classy and I don't think I'd consider hiring her, post-process the student/applicant is beginning to look worse. While it may be a valid strategy in murder-1 cases, I'm not so sure if a job applicant should be looking for the insanity plea during his interview...
He seriously tried to sign a bar blogger up for the casual encounters in craigslist? Wow... I mean... talk about a way to ensure bad press for yourself...
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:05 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
He seriously tried to sign a bar blogger up for the casual encounters in craigslist? Wow... I mean... talk about a way to ensure bad press for yourself...
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:05 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Were you held accountable for correct usage in law school or, for that matter, at your undergraduate institution?
I never went to law school, but the applicant's level of grammar wouldn't have gotten him through my ninth grade English class, let alone college. My grammar and usage are not perfect, and I wouldn't expect perfection of anyone, but this guy hasn't figured out when to end a sentence with a question mark.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:23 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I never went to law school, but the applicant's level of grammar wouldn't have gotten him through my ninth grade English class, let alone college. My grammar and usage are not perfect, and I wouldn't expect perfection of anyone, but this guy hasn't figured out when to end a sentence with a question mark.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:23 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm surprised at the number of people in this thread that are unaware of how common it is for people to forward applicant emails around the office for fun, and how seemingly more common it is for employers/potential employees to write about and/or post the exchanges word-for-word.
At my last job, it was common fare to sit around the hiring manager's computer when a new applicant's portfolio came in - especially those of recent graduates - because you knew it was going to be a bunch of guys sitting around pointing and laughing. I am sure that it is no different with a lot of places who rely on submitted pieces to determine eligibility and experience.
Perhaps it is because I live, work, eat and breath the internet as a hobby and career that this pops up so often - there are several sites devoted to making your co-workers or applicants look like idiots.
I have always assumed that anything I write to someone will probably end up being seen by someone else - especially that of a potential employer. What intrigues me most about Clark's approach, I suppose, is how he somehow assumes his holier-than-thou attitude isn't going to get his name thrown around lawyer mailing lists, blogs, and forums like they obviously did.
It says a lot about him and what other gems may have lied beneath that he's having to go around and pull down every social media account he's ever created, and is furiously deleting old blog posts while still finding the time to create fake CL ads instead of just writing a wholesome apology.
posted by june made him a gemini at 4:39 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
At my last job, it was common fare to sit around the hiring manager's computer when a new applicant's portfolio came in - especially those of recent graduates - because you knew it was going to be a bunch of guys sitting around pointing and laughing. I am sure that it is no different with a lot of places who rely on submitted pieces to determine eligibility and experience.
Perhaps it is because I live, work, eat and breath the internet as a hobby and career that this pops up so often - there are several sites devoted to making your co-workers or applicants look like idiots.
I have always assumed that anything I write to someone will probably end up being seen by someone else - especially that of a potential employer. What intrigues me most about Clark's approach, I suppose, is how he somehow assumes his holier-than-thou attitude isn't going to get his name thrown around lawyer mailing lists, blogs, and forums like they obviously did.
It says a lot about him and what other gems may have lied beneath that he's having to go around and pull down every social media account he's ever created, and is furiously deleting old blog posts while still finding the time to create fake CL ads instead of just writing a wholesome apology.
posted by june made him a gemini at 4:39 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
doublehappy: So I'm studying to be a lawyer!
Assuming your location is correct, I used to work in your law library and teach in the legal research and writing course. Good luck. Pay attention to the writing part and don't end up like these guys...
Reading this makes me feel lucky; I work in a big law firm and have never encountered this sort of attitude from any of the lawyers or partners. I have encountered the inability to write a clear email, but that's more because they dash them off in 30 seconds from their Blackberries, not because they lack grammatical skills.
posted by Infinite Jest at 4:40 PM on June 3, 2010
Assuming your location is correct, I used to work in your law library and teach in the legal research and writing course. Good luck. Pay attention to the writing part and don't end up like these guys...
Reading this makes me feel lucky; I work in a big law firm and have never encountered this sort of attitude from any of the lawyers or partners. I have encountered the inability to write a clear email, but that's more because they dash them off in 30 seconds from their Blackberries, not because they lack grammatical skills.
posted by Infinite Jest at 4:40 PM on June 3, 2010
I live 9000 miles from Massachusetts. I've lived and worked with lawyers for the last three years. I can't believe how similar these emails are - in writing, grammar, tone, and attitude - to emails I have seen or received in those three years. 9000 miles.
So I'm studying to be a lawyer!
You should go ahead and change your username to triple- or quadruplehappy!
posted by grobstein at 4:40 PM on June 3, 2010
So I'm studying to be a lawyer!
You should go ahead and change your username to triple- or quadruplehappy!
posted by grobstein at 4:40 PM on June 3, 2010
How and why does she have the time to write such long & wordy emails to some guy she doesn't want to employ anyway? Doesn't she have clients to bill?
Surely, a simple "Sorry, but you do not fit our requirements. Best of luck with your job search" would have sufficed.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:45 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Surely, a simple "Sorry, but you do not fit our requirements. Best of luck with your job search" would have sufficed.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:45 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
it looks a little better for him and much worse for the attorney.
No, what he said was completely sexist and I don't know why people are making excuses for him. He said "However, I just do not want to waste my time on a women attorney who thinks she knows it all. It's amazing that the Ma Bar lets you practice law. Shouldn't you be home cleaning and raising your children."
Quite frankly, after reading his blog post I think he sounds like a terrible person. And since so many are chiming in saying she looks worse, I'll just say that he looks WAY WORSE. He got vicious, and was an entitled douchecanoe from the start.
And I wrote this comment before I read about what he did on Craigslist. He's just awful and amazingly entitled. Which is why he will someday be some corporate hotshot lawyer making a ton of money and sexually harassing the interns.
It's probably because I have never been a big emailer (and can't recall emailing anything that would devastate me if made public), but between this one and the Stephanie Grace racist email I say let all the cockroaches be exposed. They're going to be running this world real soon.
posted by Danila at 4:45 PM on June 3, 2010 [14 favorites]
No, what he said was completely sexist and I don't know why people are making excuses for him. He said "However, I just do not want to waste my time on a women attorney who thinks she knows it all. It's amazing that the Ma Bar lets you practice law. Shouldn't you be home cleaning and raising your children."
Quite frankly, after reading his blog post I think he sounds like a terrible person. And since so many are chiming in saying she looks worse, I'll just say that he looks WAY WORSE. He got vicious, and was an entitled douchecanoe from the start.
And I wrote this comment before I read about what he did on Craigslist. He's just awful and amazingly entitled. Which is why he will someday be some corporate hotshot lawyer making a ton of money and sexually harassing the interns.
It's probably because I have never been a big emailer (and can't recall emailing anything that would devastate me if made public), but between this one and the Stephanie Grace racist email I say let all the cockroaches be exposed. They're going to be running this world real soon.
posted by Danila at 4:45 PM on June 3, 2010 [14 favorites]
The email chain was super-boring until the kid threw his "It’s amazing that the Ma Bar lets women practice law" haymaker.
Next time, I hope he opens with that one.
posted by mullacc at 4:46 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Next time, I hope he opens with that one.
posted by mullacc at 4:46 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
What a collection of assholes.
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:49 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:49 PM on June 3, 2010
I'm going to change my name to Ma Bar.
posted by dirigibleman at 4:54 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by dirigibleman at 4:54 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Danila, I'm not making excuses for him. If his claim that the attorney is rewriting his emails to make him look like an even worse douchebag is true, then that does make her look much worse than she does now.
posted by stavrogin at 4:54 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by stavrogin at 4:54 PM on June 3, 2010
From the blog comment, purportedly by the attorney*:
Every full time person that has ever worked for me has chatacherized this as their best job ever.
*it matches her style, lacking any white space that might make the interminable paragraphs slightly readable.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:57 PM on June 3, 2010
Every full time person that has ever worked for me has chatacherized this as their best job ever.
*it matches her style, lacking any white space that might make the interminable paragraphs slightly readable.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:57 PM on June 3, 2010
I'm surprised at the number of people in this thread that are unaware of how common it is for people to forward applicant emails around the office for fun, and how seemingly more common it is for employers/potential employees to write about and/or post the exchanges word-for-word.
I spend as much time on the Internets as anyone I know and it's news to me. Especially the word for word and real name part. When davejay wrote,
As soon as he took a cheap personal shot (and an incorrect one, given that she said she also checked with two other attorneys, whose experience level he had no way of knowing) he sealed his fate -- the news of his indiscretion was going to get circulated far and wide no matter what.
I thought that this was how it is among attorneys. Maybe no such qualification was intended. I must be really out of touch as to me it seems very, for want of a better word, unprofessional.
-----
I have no sympathy for him, though. Not after: "It’s amazing that the Ma Bar lets women practice law. Shouldn’t you be home cleaning and raising children." And the crap he pulled on Craigslist.
He's hardly a tragic figure but I do have some sympathy for him. His comment about women practicing law was said in anger and this is a disproportional response. My sympathy doesn't extend to looking past the fake ads. He raped the ape there, and he should certainly expect a response.
posted by BigSky at 5:04 PM on June 3, 2010
I spend as much time on the Internets as anyone I know and it's news to me. Especially the word for word and real name part. When davejay wrote,
As soon as he took a cheap personal shot (and an incorrect one, given that she said she also checked with two other attorneys, whose experience level he had no way of knowing) he sealed his fate -- the news of his indiscretion was going to get circulated far and wide no matter what.
I thought that this was how it is among attorneys. Maybe no such qualification was intended. I must be really out of touch as to me it seems very, for want of a better word, unprofessional.
-----
I have no sympathy for him, though. Not after: "It’s amazing that the Ma Bar lets women practice law. Shouldn’t you be home cleaning and raising children." And the crap he pulled on Craigslist.
He's hardly a tragic figure but I do have some sympathy for him. His comment about women practicing law was said in anger and this is a disproportional response. My sympathy doesn't extend to looking past the fake ads. He raped the ape there, and he should certainly expect a response.
posted by BigSky at 5:04 PM on June 3, 2010
Rrgh, rrgh, LOLAWYERS. Lawyers are the undertakers of human endeavor; everyone finds us stuffy, nasty, and rapacious until they need us.
That said, I'm not defending fuck-all else here. The one's a bad potential boss, and the other's a Dimitri-the-Lover-level bag of dicks.
I am, however, enriched by learning the expressions "chatacherized" (which should mean a tossed-off half-sincere compliment to someone you'd rather not offend) and "raped the ape."
posted by Countess Elena at 5:27 PM on June 3, 2010 [4 favorites]
That said, I'm not defending fuck-all else here. The one's a bad potential boss, and the other's a Dimitri-the-Lover-level bag of dicks.
I am, however, enriched by learning the expressions "chatacherized" (which should mean a tossed-off half-sincere compliment to someone you'd rather not offend) and "raped the ape."
posted by Countess Elena at 5:27 PM on June 3, 2010 [4 favorites]
"raped the ape."
Completely unrelated trivia. Tracy Kidder's first book was almost not published because there was a quote in it by my dad that said the new computer they were making would go "as fast as a raped ape" The publishers thought it was over the top gross. Tracy said "it stays." It stayed and I got to learn about how fast raped apes go [or what that even meant] at the breakfast table as a ten year old.
posted by jessamyn at 5:48 PM on June 3, 2010 [17 favorites]
Completely unrelated trivia. Tracy Kidder's first book was almost not published because there was a quote in it by my dad that said the new computer they were making would go "as fast as a raped ape" The publishers thought it was over the top gross. Tracy said "it stays." It stayed and I got to learn about how fast raped apes go [or what that even meant] at the breakfast table as a ten year old.
posted by jessamyn at 5:48 PM on June 3, 2010 [17 favorites]
Some of the Above the Law comments indicate that she did not post his name or email address on the legal forum. It was all anonymous until he retaliated by posting her name in some sort of Craigslist response. (All surmised from entirely unreliable comments at Above the Law and The Docket's update post.)
To me, that's the most egregious a-hole move here: leaking real names. Otherwise you have two uptight people meeting and passing in the night, rather than two uptight people ruining each others' careers.
posted by lillygog at 6:11 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
To me, that's the most egregious a-hole move here: leaking real names. Otherwise you have two uptight people meeting and passing in the night, rather than two uptight people ruining each others' careers.
posted by lillygog at 6:11 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
If his claim that the attorney is rewriting his emails to make him look like an even worse douchebag is true, then that does make her look much worse than she does now.
To be fair, judging by the quality of his blog post (which presumably he didn't write on his phone), she'd have had to rewrite them for them to make any sense at all
posted by Sparx at 6:14 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
To be fair, judging by the quality of his blog post (which presumably he didn't write on his phone), she'd have had to rewrite them for them to make any sense at all
I just wrote a 10 page brief to a Judge, who is my professor, who did not correct me on it and he is a Judge!No shit.
posted by Sparx at 6:14 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
(Although, I dunno, the secret-shopping makes me pretty uncomfortable.)
posted by lillygog at 6:15 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by lillygog at 6:15 PM on June 3, 2010
People are assholes. Lawyers doubly so.
This kind of shit is getting really tired.
posted by amro at 6:19 PM on June 3, 2010 [15 favorites]
This kind of shit is getting really tired.
posted by amro at 6:19 PM on June 3, 2010 [15 favorites]
If anyone who was targeted by the craigslist ads chooses to make a criminal complaint, this guy will have a wonderful time with his Character and Fitness committee next year. Maybe releasing his name and not trying to file charges looks like a more merciful course.
posted by dilettante at 6:33 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by dilettante at 6:33 PM on June 3, 2010
Yeah, you can't just go around badmouthing all people like that.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:34 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:34 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I do have some sympathy for him. His comment about women practicing law was said in anger...So misogyny is totally cool, as long as it's expressed while angry?
posted by Karmakaze at 6:34 PM on June 3, 2010 [9 favorites]
So misogyny is totally cool, as long as it's expressed while angry?
Surely you can find a better spot to push your grievance agenda, no?
The second half of the sentence that you cut from the quote, described the response to the comment as disproportionate, implying that some other consequence would be more appropriate. So, no. Obviously not "totally cool".
There's also something to be said for not responding to every insulting comment and act encountered. One really can ignore most of the rudeness that comes their way, even when it offends convictions concerning race and gender.
posted by BigSky at 7:08 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Surely you can find a better spot to push your grievance agenda, no?
The second half of the sentence that you cut from the quote, described the response to the comment as disproportionate, implying that some other consequence would be more appropriate. So, no. Obviously not "totally cool".
There's also something to be said for not responding to every insulting comment and act encountered. One really can ignore most of the rudeness that comes their way, even when it offends convictions concerning race and gender.
posted by BigSky at 7:08 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
His comment about women practicing law was said in anger
And it was completely unprofessional, inappropriate by any stretch of the imagination, probably the stupidest thing imaginable for a jobseeker to send a potential employer, and would possibly get him on the receiving end of a lawsuit if it had been an e-mail that he'd sent on the job. The attorney was equally if not more unprofessional, but two wrongs don't make a right.
And an e-mail that says that a female attorney should be "at home cleaning and raising children," whether it was said in a moment of anger or not, is misogynistic on its face. Calling it so is not "pushing" a "grievance agenda."
posted by blucevalo at 7:19 PM on June 3, 2010 [21 favorites]
And it was completely unprofessional, inappropriate by any stretch of the imagination, probably the stupidest thing imaginable for a jobseeker to send a potential employer, and would possibly get him on the receiving end of a lawsuit if it had been an e-mail that he'd sent on the job. The attorney was equally if not more unprofessional, but two wrongs don't make a right.
And an e-mail that says that a female attorney should be "at home cleaning and raising children," whether it was said in a moment of anger or not, is misogynistic on its face. Calling it so is not "pushing" a "grievance agenda."
posted by blucevalo at 7:19 PM on June 3, 2010 [21 favorites]
No winners, sure. I know I'd probably choose someone else over her, now, just because she let herself get sucked into that hasty exchange.
I also know that there is no way in green hell I would ever, ever hire that paralegal to do so much as take my trash out. He's one of those guys that can't possibly be wrong, can't even pretend to admit to possibly being wrong when it might suit him better, is offended by the idea that someone might not think he's the greatest... bleh. Not the kind of asshole I'd want to be around for any length of time, even if he could write worth a damn.
I didn't read it as an accidental slip of a sexist comment though. I think he consciously tried to think up the most offensive thing he could say to her, which only happened to be a sexist comment by coincidence. I'm not sure that's any better, though.
posted by ctmf at 7:38 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I also know that there is no way in green hell I would ever, ever hire that paralegal to do so much as take my trash out. He's one of those guys that can't possibly be wrong, can't even pretend to admit to possibly being wrong when it might suit him better, is offended by the idea that someone might not think he's the greatest... bleh. Not the kind of asshole I'd want to be around for any length of time, even if he could write worth a damn.
I didn't read it as an accidental slip of a sexist comment though. I think he consciously tried to think up the most offensive thing he could say to her, which only happened to be a sexist comment by coincidence. I'm not sure that's any better, though.
posted by ctmf at 7:38 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
And an e-mail that says that a female attorney should be "at home cleaning and raising children," whether it was said in a moment of anger or not, is misogynistic on its face. Calling it so is not "pushing" a "grievance agenda."
What? I didn't say that calling the applicant's comment misogynistic was pushing a grievance agenda. But twisting my earlier comment and claiming that it is somehow the equivalent of "misogyny is totally cool, as long as it's expressed while angry"? Yeah, that's some quality gender baiting right there.
This really should be obvious. Strange that you drew such a faulty interpretation of a few lines. It's almost like you were looking to interpret those earlier comments in the least charitable light possible...
posted by BigSky at 7:40 PM on June 3, 2010
What? I didn't say that calling the applicant's comment misogynistic was pushing a grievance agenda. But twisting my earlier comment and claiming that it is somehow the equivalent of "misogyny is totally cool, as long as it's expressed while angry"? Yeah, that's some quality gender baiting right there.
This really should be obvious. Strange that you drew such a faulty interpretation of a few lines. It's almost like you were looking to interpret those earlier comments in the least charitable light possible...
posted by BigSky at 7:40 PM on June 3, 2010
"I took a look at my witting samples"
This is awesome.
posted by HopperFan at 7:51 PM on June 3, 2010
This is awesome.
posted by HopperFan at 7:51 PM on June 3, 2010
I just wrote a 10 page brief to a Judge, who is my professor, who did not correct me on it and he is a Judge!
I find that reading this in the voice of Dug the dog from Up makes his sound more sympathetic.
posted by bibliowench at 7:53 PM on June 3, 2010 [37 favorites]
I find that reading this in the voice of Dug the dog from Up makes his sound more sympathetic.
posted by bibliowench at 7:53 PM on June 3, 2010 [37 favorites]
I think the phrase "cleaning and raising children" is funny; it makes it sound as though they're stored on a rack when not in use or something.
Actually, the poor level of writing on both sides is a little scary. Shouldn't lawyers (that is, people who use English as a tool for a living) be more literate than that?
posted by Michael Roberts at 8:03 PM on June 3, 2010
Actually, the poor level of writing on both sides is a little scary. Shouldn't lawyers (that is, people who use English as a tool for a living) be more literate than that?
posted by Michael Roberts at 8:03 PM on June 3, 2010
On (lack of) preview: >bibliowench, that deserves a lot more than the one favoriting I can give it.
posted by Michael Roberts at 8:04 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by Michael Roberts at 8:04 PM on June 3, 2010
I find that reading this in the voice of Dug the dog from Up makes his sound more sympathetic.
This right here is full of win.
posted by devinemissk at 8:08 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
This right here is full of win.
posted by devinemissk at 8:08 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
the applicant's resume is pretty win.
WHY MUST HE YELL
posted by amro at 8:19 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
WHY MUST HE YELL
posted by amro at 8:19 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
And hey, so he graduated from a police academy but didn't become a cop? What's that about?
posted by amro at 8:20 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by amro at 8:20 PM on June 3, 2010
This really should be obvious.
Maybe it was obvious to you. I don't think I'm the only one who found the meaning of your comment completely unobvious.
posted by blucevalo at 8:20 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
Maybe it was obvious to you. I don't think I'm the only one who found the meaning of your comment completely unobvious.
posted by blucevalo at 8:20 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
Metafilter: FULL KNOWLEDGE OF LEXIS NEXIS, PROFICIENT IN ALL MICROSOFT, ADOBE, DREAMWEAVER APPLICATIONS.
posted by Hildegarde at 8:28 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by Hildegarde at 8:28 PM on June 3, 2010
I'm glad the mods are here to MAKE SURE POOL AND BEACH IS CLEAN AT ALL TIMES. Okay, I'm stopping now, promise.
posted by Hildegarde at 8:30 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Hildegarde at 8:30 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ha! I read that in voice of Dug too. But then I do that with a lot of things I read...
posted by gofargogo at 8:32 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by gofargogo at 8:32 PM on June 3, 2010
Apologies if someone posted this already, I didn't see it.
Via here:
The Legal Profession Is No Longer Prestigious
As a result of the recent events that have occurred these past couple of days in regards to Attorney Rose Clayton’s posting of our now not so private email conversation, I feel compelled to make this last and final blog and say goodbye to this “prestigious” profession.
When looking back at everything that has occurred since May 27, 2010, when Attorney Clayton posted our email conversation, it now makes me wonder if lawyers have lost their prestige status. As every lawyer and law student knows, 49 states have adopted the Model Rules of Professional Responsibility. These model rules were drafted and adopted for lawyers to adhere to them. Do lawyers really adhere to the model rules? I will leave that question for you to answer. After sitting back and taking the time to reflect on the series of events that have occurred, it makes me wonder if lawyers forget about the model rules after successfully passing the Multistate Professional Responsibility Exam. When a job applicant communicates to a prospective employer, he or she does not expect that their private conversations would become public. Unless I have been under a rock, I do not believe that this has become a new trend when applying for a job. I wonder what it will be next? Will attorneys be running to the internet to disclose confidential information provided by the client?
I have come to the conclusion that lawyers have lost their prestigious status and wonder why so many students flock to law schools after obtaining a four year degree to become one. Face it, there are no jobs available and, if there are, Attorney Rose Clayton has a position of a lifetime for you! Do you want to receive four quarterly bonuses equal to four weeks pay, plus complimentary lunch all while receiving a massage? Is the legal field prestigious when events like this occur? I certainly do not believe so. This profession is sinking fast and it is troubling to me. Since Friday, I have had no sleep. I have read over each comment, both on “The Docket” and “Above the Law”, over and over. For someone who takes this profession seriously, the comments make me sick. In fact, many comments are by attorneys. The inaccuracies are too numerous to refute in detail but I will, however, respond to one of them here. First and foremost, no- I am not dead as one comment indicates. I have still yet to find any “Breaking News” on my apparent suicide. I find it quite humorous that some people would sit in front of their computer and try to pick out every typo and legal inaccuracy in the candid private email’s sent to Attorney Clayton.
After taking the time to reflect on the recent events, I have decided to not become a member of the bar, at least not in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. This decision is based on the lack of professionalism by the bar community here, and especially the lack of judgment by Attorney Clayton by publishing the personal emails.
What will I do now? Will I ever go back to law school and obtain my J.D.? who knows. I will let the cards fall where they land.
Please note that this website will be terminated within the next few days.
Posted by Jesse J. Clark at 7:41 PM
posted by amro at 8:34 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Via here:
The Legal Profession Is No Longer Prestigious
As a result of the recent events that have occurred these past couple of days in regards to Attorney Rose Clayton’s posting of our now not so private email conversation, I feel compelled to make this last and final blog and say goodbye to this “prestigious” profession.
When looking back at everything that has occurred since May 27, 2010, when Attorney Clayton posted our email conversation, it now makes me wonder if lawyers have lost their prestige status. As every lawyer and law student knows, 49 states have adopted the Model Rules of Professional Responsibility. These model rules were drafted and adopted for lawyers to adhere to them. Do lawyers really adhere to the model rules? I will leave that question for you to answer. After sitting back and taking the time to reflect on the series of events that have occurred, it makes me wonder if lawyers forget about the model rules after successfully passing the Multistate Professional Responsibility Exam. When a job applicant communicates to a prospective employer, he or she does not expect that their private conversations would become public. Unless I have been under a rock, I do not believe that this has become a new trend when applying for a job. I wonder what it will be next? Will attorneys be running to the internet to disclose confidential information provided by the client?
I have come to the conclusion that lawyers have lost their prestigious status and wonder why so many students flock to law schools after obtaining a four year degree to become one. Face it, there are no jobs available and, if there are, Attorney Rose Clayton has a position of a lifetime for you! Do you want to receive four quarterly bonuses equal to four weeks pay, plus complimentary lunch all while receiving a massage? Is the legal field prestigious when events like this occur? I certainly do not believe so. This profession is sinking fast and it is troubling to me. Since Friday, I have had no sleep. I have read over each comment, both on “The Docket” and “Above the Law”, over and over. For someone who takes this profession seriously, the comments make me sick. In fact, many comments are by attorneys. The inaccuracies are too numerous to refute in detail but I will, however, respond to one of them here. First and foremost, no- I am not dead as one comment indicates. I have still yet to find any “Breaking News” on my apparent suicide. I find it quite humorous that some people would sit in front of their computer and try to pick out every typo and legal inaccuracy in the candid private email’s sent to Attorney Clayton.
After taking the time to reflect on the recent events, I have decided to not become a member of the bar, at least not in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. This decision is based on the lack of professionalism by the bar community here, and especially the lack of judgment by Attorney Clayton by publishing the personal emails.
What will I do now? Will I ever go back to law school and obtain my J.D.? who knows. I will let the cards fall where they land.
Please note that this website will be terminated within the next few days.
Posted by Jesse J. Clark at 7:41 PM
posted by amro at 8:34 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
INSURE SAFETY AT THE HOTEL POOL AND OUTSIDE LAKE
Hey, he's an underwriter as well. Just how many strings are there to his bow?
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:38 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Hey, he's an underwriter as well. Just how many strings are there to his bow?
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:38 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
"I will let the cards fall where they land."
OMG stop yer killin me
posted by HopperFan at 8:39 PM on June 3, 2010 [5 favorites]
OMG stop yer killin me
posted by HopperFan at 8:39 PM on June 3, 2010 [5 favorites]
After taking the time to reflect on the recent events, I have decided to not become a member of the bar, at least not in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
[earlier]: How do you know that I want to practice here in Worcester County, or even Massachusetts? Stop making assumptions. You do not know me.
The Massachusetts legal community must be mourning the loss of so bright an upcoming star.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:44 PM on June 3, 2010
[earlier]: How do you know that I want to practice here in Worcester County, or even Massachusetts? Stop making assumptions. You do not know me.
The Massachusetts legal community must be mourning the loss of so bright an upcoming star.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:44 PM on June 3, 2010
i'm not sure if it's the caps or what, but his entire linked.in thingum seems to be written in the imperative tense.
i tried really hard to find xtreme web designs because i must MAKE SURE POOL AND BEACH IS CLEAN AT ALL TIMES.
but i failed.
posted by talaitha at 8:58 PM on June 3, 2010
i tried really hard to find xtreme web designs because i must MAKE SURE POOL AND BEACH IS CLEAN AT ALL TIMES.
but i failed.
posted by talaitha at 8:58 PM on June 3, 2010
I love these internet dramas -- watching people reveal themselves like this, in bits and pieces, through text and context. Like reading a great social novel. Why bother trying to determine who's worse (he's much worse), they're just both so awesomely real.
posted by palliser at 9:06 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by palliser at 9:06 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
His comment about women practicing law was said in anger and this is a disproportional response.
I certainly wouldn't want to hire or have to work with someone who says things like that to women when he is angry. That person needs help learning that it is not okay to say things like that to a woman, no matter how angry you are. If "outing" his behavior publicly gets him that help, great. Otherwise it protects other people from him.
posted by straight at 9:12 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I certainly wouldn't want to hire or have to work with someone who says things like that to women when he is angry. That person needs help learning that it is not okay to say things like that to a woman, no matter how angry you are. If "outing" his behavior publicly gets him that help, great. Otherwise it protects other people from him.
posted by straight at 9:12 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
That follow up post was so bad, both in writing and in PR strategy, that this has got to be a hoax.
posted by ctmf at 9:13 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 9:13 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's really kind of sad when resumes include things that the applicant is proud of but that aren't that impressive to other people, particularly bosses. At worst, it betrays a certain cluelessness about the profession the person seeks to join (for example, no lawyer in the world gives a crap that this guy has been certified to electronically file bankruptcy pleadings).
One of the best things that happened to my career was interning at a DA's office and having the supervising ADA go through each intern's resume during the office's monthly happy hour. Anything pretentious, precious, or clueless got mocked (and got removed from any future copies of my resume). "Runner up for [such-and-such] Award? You know what that means, right?," the supervisor asked, pointing to something I had actually been sort of proud of. Until, that is, the office full of prosecutors shouted, "He lost!"
posted by hhc5 at 9:54 PM on June 3, 2010 [6 favorites]
One of the best things that happened to my career was interning at a DA's office and having the supervising ADA go through each intern's resume during the office's monthly happy hour. Anything pretentious, precious, or clueless got mocked (and got removed from any future copies of my resume). "Runner up for [such-and-such] Award? You know what that means, right?," the supervisor asked, pointing to something I had actually been sort of proud of. Until, that is, the office full of prosecutors shouted, "He lost!"
posted by hhc5 at 9:54 PM on June 3, 2010 [6 favorites]
Both these people are angry, egotistical, egotistical, and vindictive. In other words, they work in the legal profession.
I'm glad Infinite Jest wrote about working with lawyers that are not like this, because this whole exchange was just feeding my predjudices of the profession.
And to think it escalated over the legal use of the word its (or it's?).
posted by eye of newt at 10:06 PM on June 3, 2010
I'm glad Infinite Jest wrote about working with lawyers that are not like this, because this whole exchange was just feeding my predjudices of the profession.
And to think it escalated over the legal use of the word its (or it's?).
posted by eye of newt at 10:06 PM on June 3, 2010
I meant egotistical, narcissistic--there I go with that cutting and pasting again.
posted by eye of newt at 10:07 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by eye of newt at 10:07 PM on June 3, 2010
And I know it's its. (I loved typing that sentence). But he kept using it's in his blog.
posted by eye of newt at 10:11 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by eye of newt at 10:11 PM on June 3, 2010
eye of newt, the simple progression of Eschaton is what I find most interesting in these correspondences-
posted by localhuman at 10:18 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by localhuman at 10:18 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Good God.
I'm not involved in this stupid shit-storm in any way, but I want to clear up a couple of things.
First off, having just last week graduated from law school, I can say that it is well understood that saying stupid shit in online communications will get those communications disseminated as widely and quickly as possible. Moreover, this isn't seen as shitty behavior within the legal community. Rather the legal community is full of dedicated and (mostly) good people who understand and also hate the public perception of them as sleazebags. They also basically swear an oath of fealty towards their clients, and treat that as their sacred bond. To be a lawyer is to serve others in their most dire times of need, and that's all we can do. It's a weird mindset, and one you don't really see from the outside, but along with the specialization of knowledge inherent in the profession, it creates a tight-knit community with a lot of morals in play, and one which isn't very cool about allowing shitty people in.
So I have basically total sympathy for the hiring attorney.In this godawful market, she gave him a chance, and he pissed all over it. She didn't need to keep responding, but it's in our nature to explain ourselves, and he was making personal attacks on her experience and intelligence in response to very reasonable requests. Even the "secret shopper" thing makes sense - bankruptcy clients are likely to be scared shitless calling a legal practice, and probably won't complain about bad client interaction, plus the applicant can prove intuition about the practice in the duty. It's unorthodox, but it makes sense to me.
And then he sends out horribly sexist shit, which no matter what else has been said here is entirely indefensible, and so damn right you let it leak. I've seen people go down for much less in similar situations. I have sympathy for them (and have oftemtimes been paranoid that I'd do something to join their ranks) but the idea isn't "hey fuck this guy, don't hire him." The idea is, "This person is claiming that he can represent clients, and this is how he's showing it."
Clients are paramount, which in this line means that professionalism is paramount. I've got a year now of courtroom experience defending indigent criminal clients in DC. I am nothing if not sympathetic to the needs of people who have made bad choices. Jesse Clark should not represent people, and the hiring attorney did the right thing by making sure that he doesn't.
posted by Navelgazer at 1:34 AM on June 4, 2010 [18 favorites]
I'm not involved in this stupid shit-storm in any way, but I want to clear up a couple of things.
First off, having just last week graduated from law school, I can say that it is well understood that saying stupid shit in online communications will get those communications disseminated as widely and quickly as possible. Moreover, this isn't seen as shitty behavior within the legal community. Rather the legal community is full of dedicated and (mostly) good people who understand and also hate the public perception of them as sleazebags. They also basically swear an oath of fealty towards their clients, and treat that as their sacred bond. To be a lawyer is to serve others in their most dire times of need, and that's all we can do. It's a weird mindset, and one you don't really see from the outside, but along with the specialization of knowledge inherent in the profession, it creates a tight-knit community with a lot of morals in play, and one which isn't very cool about allowing shitty people in.
So I have basically total sympathy for the hiring attorney.In this godawful market, she gave him a chance, and he pissed all over it. She didn't need to keep responding, but it's in our nature to explain ourselves, and he was making personal attacks on her experience and intelligence in response to very reasonable requests. Even the "secret shopper" thing makes sense - bankruptcy clients are likely to be scared shitless calling a legal practice, and probably won't complain about bad client interaction, plus the applicant can prove intuition about the practice in the duty. It's unorthodox, but it makes sense to me.
And then he sends out horribly sexist shit, which no matter what else has been said here is entirely indefensible, and so damn right you let it leak. I've seen people go down for much less in similar situations. I have sympathy for them (and have oftemtimes been paranoid that I'd do something to join their ranks) but the idea isn't "hey fuck this guy, don't hire him." The idea is, "This person is claiming that he can represent clients, and this is how he's showing it."
Clients are paramount, which in this line means that professionalism is paramount. I've got a year now of courtroom experience defending indigent criminal clients in DC. I am nothing if not sympathetic to the needs of people who have made bad choices. Jesse Clark should not represent people, and the hiring attorney did the right thing by making sure that he doesn't.
posted by Navelgazer at 1:34 AM on June 4, 2010 [18 favorites]
I have quite a few attorneys as clients. They're pretty much all reasonably nice people, otherwise I wouldn't take their calls. I don't have enough time in my life to deal with difficult people. That said, they also almost all have utterly atrocious email grammar. The glimpses I've seen of their pleadings seem perfectly fine, though, although they have paralegals to help with that stuff.
Ironically, the paralegals are the ones who nearly always send relatively well composed emails.
Anyway, I think lawyers get a bad rap. Even if I am a little disgusted by one of my clients taking up debt collection recently. (In his defense, it pays incredibly well for the time invested from what I gather)
posted by wierdo at 4:24 AM on June 4, 2010
Ironically, the paralegals are the ones who nearly always send relatively well composed emails.
Anyway, I think lawyers get a bad rap. Even if I am a little disgusted by one of my clients taking up debt collection recently. (In his defense, it pays incredibly well for the time invested from what I gather)
posted by wierdo at 4:24 AM on June 4, 2010
The Via link has a response from the attorney in the comments, explaining her secret shopper arrangement and expanding upon the incident.
posted by ericb at 7:28 AM on June 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
"I am the attorney involved in this situation. I feel the need to explain a few things. First, I am sorry for my grammar errors. While everything I write I adhere to the old adage of understanding it may be read by the world, that applies for substance only…not grammer and punctuation."Which is it? FAIL!
posted by ericb at 7:28 AM on June 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
Here is a cache of his blog that is no deleted.
posted by ericb at 7:45 AM on June 4, 2010
"On Monday, I am going to institute legal proceedings against both Lawyers Weekly and Attorney Rose Clayton for posting defamatory statements. Also, it is my opinion after reviewing the posts online that you Attorney Clayton is violating my rights pursuant to M.G.L. Chapter 214, Section 1B (invasion of privacy) by unreasonably, substantially, and seriously interfering with my privacy with respect to communicating the contents of the aforesaid communications, future lost earnings and intentional infliction of emotional distress. Unless, we can come to a amicable resolution, this will only get worse. Below is a screen shot of the original email sent to Attorney Clayton with a sexist comment directed towards HER, not to the all women practicing in Massachusetts."Whoo-boy. Let the games begin!
posted by ericb at 7:45 AM on June 4, 2010
You is violating my rights!
posted by amro at 7:51 AM on June 4, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by amro at 7:51 AM on June 4, 2010 [2 favorites]
The poor dude appears to have that personality complex where he gets disillusioned, quits, starts a new career that will be perfect and solve all his problems, gets disillusioned, and repeats, ad nauseum.
posted by gjc at 7:56 AM on June 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by gjc at 7:56 AM on June 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
Jesse Clark should not represent people, and the hiring attorney did the right thing by making sure that he doesn't.
This, favorited 500 times.
posted by blucevalo at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2010
This, favorited 500 times.
posted by blucevalo at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2010
To be fair about his XTREME WEB DESIGNS site, Google cache usually borks most of the formatting, so it's unlikely he really used Times New Roman or fucked up the dimensions of that table...
Oh wait, he's using tables and not divs?
Yeah, fuck him.
posted by desjardins at 9:02 AM on June 4, 2010
Oh wait, he's using tables and not divs?
Yeah, fuck him.
posted by desjardins at 9:02 AM on June 4, 2010
Two zipperheads meet in a job interview and...
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:09 AM on June 4, 2010
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:09 AM on June 4, 2010
"Mr. Hart Clark, here is a dime. Call your mother. Tell her there is serious doubt about you becoming a lawyer."
posted by ericb at 9:14 AM on June 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 9:14 AM on June 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
"On Monday, I am going to institute legal proceedings against both Lawyers Weekly and Attorney Rose Clayton for posting defamatory statements....
"For your information, Mr. Clark, here are the elements of the tort of defamation, which I guess they didn't get around to teaching at your as-of-yet unaccredited, no LSAT required law school:posted by ericb at 9:25 AM on June 4, 2010 [2 favorites]-- Defendant made a statement of fact which is false,Mr. Clark, you admit to making the sexist statement about Rose Clayton. You admit engaging in the email exchange with Ms. Clayton. There was no relationship between you and Ms. Clayton that would create any sort of privilege between the two of you. And if any damage was caused, it is your own damn fault!*
-- to at least one other person
-- which reasonably identifies the plaintiff,
-- is defamatory,
--and causes damage to the plaintiff
Q: What is the difference between a lawyer?
A: One e-mail is both the same.
posted by storybored at 10:58 AM on June 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
A: One e-mail is both the same.
posted by storybored at 10:58 AM on June 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
You must be related to Antonin Scalia, because he seems to know it all too.
posted by ad astra at 11:27 AM on June 4, 2010
posted by ad astra at 11:27 AM on June 4, 2010
So, the lawyers, they are writing the lawyer jokes now?
posted by cjorgensen at 12:57 PM on June 4, 2010
posted by cjorgensen at 12:57 PM on June 4, 2010
I work at a not-for-profit organization with a mission to teach skills and ethics to practicing lawyers. Our courses are taught by panels comprised of top partners, government officials, law professors, and corporate counsel. They are attended by all sorts of lawyers: associates, partners, accountants, bureaucrats.
Though I am not qualified to judge any lawyer's ability to practice law, I do see a wide variety of writing ability, beyond just the terseness of the hastily sent Blackberry blast. Those at the top of the profession, even in the shortest of follow-ups, are usually clear and direct in their writing.
When I turn my gaze from our faculty and more distinguished attendees to the junior and associate level, the variety in writing level increases. Some associates write as well as our faculty; some partners write like children.
People seem to get into the profession for all sorts of reasons, from all sorts of backgrounds. This seems to be standard in most jobs.
When I worked with bankers, I saw high-level misunderstandings of basic mathematical concepts that made my jaw drop. When I worked in construction, I saw safety errors that would make you scream. Someone else can fill us all in on how many bad computer programmers there are; from what I gather, they're disappointingly common.
In most any endeavor only a few people are very good, while the largest part are somewhere between not good at all and downright bad. In the face of this, though, most of us are taught that we are in fact good, or at least well on our way to becoming good. That's probably not true, but without such lies of self-worth, many people would lack the motivation to even live.
If there weren't mechanisms to keep the barely competent greater part of humanity employed and feeling good about it, then we'd all swim together, up to our necks in shit. Sometimes failures become lawyers; sometimes they become your colleagues or your bosses, in any field you choose. Where does that leave the best of us?
If you're really good at what you do, you're probably carrying a lot of other people's dead weight. Hopefully you're dragging them from above and not pushing them from below.
posted by breezeway at 7:59 AM on June 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
Though I am not qualified to judge any lawyer's ability to practice law, I do see a wide variety of writing ability, beyond just the terseness of the hastily sent Blackberry blast. Those at the top of the profession, even in the shortest of follow-ups, are usually clear and direct in their writing.
When I turn my gaze from our faculty and more distinguished attendees to the junior and associate level, the variety in writing level increases. Some associates write as well as our faculty; some partners write like children.
People seem to get into the profession for all sorts of reasons, from all sorts of backgrounds. This seems to be standard in most jobs.
When I worked with bankers, I saw high-level misunderstandings of basic mathematical concepts that made my jaw drop. When I worked in construction, I saw safety errors that would make you scream. Someone else can fill us all in on how many bad computer programmers there are; from what I gather, they're disappointingly common.
In most any endeavor only a few people are very good, while the largest part are somewhere between not good at all and downright bad. In the face of this, though, most of us are taught that we are in fact good, or at least well on our way to becoming good. That's probably not true, but without such lies of self-worth, many people would lack the motivation to even live.
If there weren't mechanisms to keep the barely competent greater part of humanity employed and feeling good about it, then we'd all swim together, up to our necks in shit. Sometimes failures become lawyers; sometimes they become your colleagues or your bosses, in any field you choose. Where does that leave the best of us?
If you're really good at what you do, you're probably carrying a lot of other people's dead weight. Hopefully you're dragging them from above and not pushing them from below.
posted by breezeway at 7:59 AM on June 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
This is not at all about lawyers. It's about two people who are obsessed with being right, and who need to grow up, and who got outed by the Internet. Not a particularly strange occurrence these days.
posted by thedotorg at 9:17 PM on June 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by thedotorg at 9:17 PM on June 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
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