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June 12, 2010 3:00 AM   Subscribe


 
I hereby declare mefi a completely us-centric zone today. With England already humbly admitting that they will win the 2010 world cup, one can only hope the freedom loving US soccer team can step up to the 'plate' today and send them homewards to think again.
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:04 AM on June 12, 2010 [6 favorites]


Damn tooting Sarge!
posted by Gratishades at 3:05 AM on June 12, 2010


i cant wait
posted by Addiction at 3:05 AM on June 12, 2010


*masturbates furiously*
posted by stinkycheese at 3:22 AM on June 12, 2010 [19 favorites]


Ad: "Prepare for battle". (Full version.)
posted by iviken at 3:25 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


That Dodge ad is horrific. Is there nothing advertisers won't co-opt to sell you shit?
posted by djgh at 3:32 AM on June 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


Wow. I was expecting that the press had taken an anodyne quote from Capello saying "if x, y and z then there is no reason we cannot go all the way" or some such and twisting it to read "We WILL win". However if the link from the Scotsman is right then he actually said "The expectation now is high after such a long time and I am sure this time the team will be able to arrive in the final". Those are strong words- Capello may regret them, he is not wrong about the first part, 'feverish expectations', and to stoke them further as England manager... England chews up managers, will be interesting to see how this progresses. usa usa usa
posted by Gratishades at 3:36 AM on June 12, 2010


Well, the best of British luck, you chaps. And may the best team win, what ho?
posted by aqsakal at 3:37 AM on June 12, 2010


Yay for mindless jingoism.

Never thought I'd say this, but between the witless braying of "USA, USA, USA" and "Eng-ger-lund, Eng-ger-lund", I'm actually thankful for the drone of the vuvuzela.

Here's hoping we can avoid the traditional rendition of 10 German Bombers
posted by fatfrank at 3:38 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


"freedom loving" soccer teams always reminds me of this
posted by infini at 3:43 AM on June 12, 2010


There's a basketball championship series going on here in the good old USA. What sport are you talking about.

Weird as an FPP IMHO.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:47 AM on June 12, 2010


Flagged as A.B.E.
posted by seanyboy at 3:59 AM on June 12, 2010


There's a basketball championship series going on here in the good old USA.

And a Spaniard will win that too. Spain: our economy may suck, but we're good with balls.
posted by Skeptic at 4:01 AM on June 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


Bloody colonials.
posted by fight or flight at 4:03 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


The USA may not be much but it's mine dammit. If I abandon that notion I'm done and better this venue than any other.

Shut up you.

Also Canada (GSTQ) WTF? The DPRK is playing and you, what, thought it would be impolite to try too hard in the prelims or something?
posted by vapidave at 4:13 AM on June 12, 2010


WOOOOOOOOOOLVERINES!!!!!!!!! Here's to hoping Tim Howard isn't a sleeper cell.
posted by NolanRyanHatesMatches at 4:18 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Anyone know any good streaming sites for live World Cup games? The non-bs kind that can be seen from any country?
posted by zardoz at 4:21 AM on June 12, 2010


Here's a howler for you, then.
posted by Burhanistan at 4:27 AM on June 12, 2010


zardoz itv.com is showing some, but not sure what the georgraphic restrictions are. Tyry it now, they're showing the S.Korea Greece game
posted by fatfrank at 4:31 AM on June 12, 2010


Zardoz, this tends to have multiple streams of each match, so if one is running slowly/has bad quality, you can always move onto the next. Not totally sure about country restrictions, though.
posted by NolanRyanHatesMatches at 4:34 AM on June 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


The sports team from my area is superior to the sports team from your area!

Here's a howler for you, then.

Oh, wow. Here's how it works: America ≠ Socialism. America ≠ Soccer. Therefore, Soccer = Socialism! Pretty simple grade-school math, really.
posted by Devils Rancher at 4:53 AM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Fun old school links, thanks. I'd actually never seen that 1950 video.

But the '94 stuff is awesome. Those faux-denim unis with the stars? And Balboa's 'stache/mullet combo? It's nice to think that Tab Ramos is probably the only guy from that Switzerland game who would be starting for today's team.

Also, I'd completely forgotten what Clint Mathis looked like a) with hair, and b) pre-Doritos and Budweiser.
posted by GodricVT at 4:53 AM on June 12, 2010


Awesome NRHM. It's a fat feed here in Seattle.
posted by vapidave at 4:54 AM on June 12, 2010


and just for flavour,

Will the coverage end up reinforcing bizarre Western stereotypes of Africa? You bet. This has been really bugging the contributors (and soccer fans) to the ‘Africa is A Country’ blog, who have been collecting some real stinkers - see here and here. But their golden raspberry goes to the New York Times, for

“Jere Longman’s latest uninformed screed, “Don’t Bet on Home Continent in African World Cup.” As Teju Cole over at Not a Safari summarizes it:

‘… Every available stereotype of Africans (violent, corrupt, disorganized, malnourished, capricious, emotional, and just plain weird) is conveniently included in this story by Jeré Longman in the New York Times. Bonus: A cannibalism allusion from Jürgen Klinsmann.’

But at least there’s the football.

posted by infini at 4:56 AM on June 12, 2010


Zzzzz . . .

Oh wow!
posted by Arthur Phillips Jones Jr at 4:57 AM on June 12, 2010


Wow. I was expecting that the press had taken an anodyne quote from Capello saying "if x, y and z then there is no reason we cannot go all the way" or some such and twisting it to read "We WILL win". However if the link from the Scotsman is right then he actually said "The expectation now is high after such a long time and I am sure this time the team will be able to arrive in the final". Those are strong words- Capello may regret them, he is not wrong about the first part, 'feverish expectations', and to stoke them further as England manager... England chews up managers, will be interesting to see how this progresses. usa usa usa
posted by Gratishades at 11:36 AM on June 12 [+] [!]


He'll be fine. JP Morgan says so.
posted by jonnyploy at 4:57 AM on June 12, 2010


Here's a howler for you, then.

Those excerpted quotations make me so angry at how inane and stupid they are.
The liberal media have always been uncomfortable with "American exceptionalism" - the belief that the United States is unique among nations, a leader and a force for good. And they are no happier with America's rejection of soccer than with its rejection of socialism.
I think he's just annoyed that America isn't exceptional at football. Which I predict will change within a decade. Pay a top European coach to come in and show you the ropes on tactics, technique etc. and the USA would quickly become a force to be reckoned with. There's a huge base of physically able and athletic people.

Plus, surely exceptionalism would relish the opportunity to take on the rest of the world on a level playing field, and triumph. Olympics, anyone? America doesn't do so badly at that, right?

Finally, the socialism point. How's that NFL/NBA/NHL draft workin' out for ya? And you instigated the same thing in MLS so you couldn't leverage the insane amounts of money you have to buy foreign players why?

And what the fuck does rejection of football have to do with the rejection of socialism?
Hence Americans are "xenophobic," "isolated" and lacking in understanding for other nations and their passion for "the planetary pastime," as Time magazine put it. But, they are confident, as America becomes more Hispanic, the nation will have to give in and adopt the immigrants' game. [...]
If history has shown us anything, it's that America should reject anything that immigrants bring with them, AMIRITE? Now where's my pizza?
or sure, there may be a number of reasons that is the case but my suspicion is that the so-called "beautiful game" is not so beautiful to American sensibilities. We like, as good small "d" democrats, our underdogs for sure but we also still expect folks in the end to get their just desert. And, in sports, that means excellence should prevail. Of course, the fact that is often not the case when it comes to soccer may be precisely the reason the sport is so popular in the countries of Latin America and Europe.
This quotation is so full of stupid I don't even know where to begin. Tell me this sir, on what metric are you judging "just desert", and what the flying fuck does it have to do with anything other than a media narrative about how some team deserves something?

You like underdogs, but want "excellence" to prevail. Underdogs can't be excellent? You never want underdogs to win? You must be crushed over the outcome of the American Revolutionary War then. Those pesky underdogs, upsetting the natural order of things.

There's more I could say, but I'm going to watch socialist England play exceptional America in kickball.
posted by djgh at 4:59 AM on June 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


I already had this discussion yesterday at work. And keep in mind, i truly do love American football:

American football has a draft, trading, and a salary cap, in addition to the playoff system that includes a large chunk of the league, thereby giving more teams a shot at the title. International football, by contrast, is PURE capitalism: players go to the highest bidder, players are lent for CASH, and whoever's on top at the end wins it all.

Which one's socialist, then?
posted by grubi at 5:07 AM on June 12, 2010 [12 favorites]


Also: Go, USA!
posted by grubi at 5:07 AM on June 12, 2010


Dear AskMe, I think there's a beehive in my TV because every time I tune in to watch a world cup match, the damn thing won't stop buzzing! It even manages to drown out the commentators from time to time. Should I spray some Raid in there or what?
posted by pyrex at 5:12 AM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Thanks to the Daily Show, I'm aware that the World Cup match between England and the USA is today but would it kill you to put some sort of description of the links somewhere? I know I'm not the only one who doesn't want to open a bunch of YouTube links without having some idea of what they are about.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:15 AM on June 12, 2010


Man, I just can't watch all the flopping, it's too much. (Turns off Tivo'd Lakers game with Derek Fisher's getting pushed around by phantom players).

Let's watch some soccer!!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:15 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]




And a Spaniard will win that too. Spain: our economy may suck, but we're good with balls.

You think? Celtics in 7. Heard it here.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:19 AM on June 12, 2010


Dear AskMe, I think there's a beehive in my TV because every time I tune in to watch a world cup match, the damn thing won't stop buzzing! It even manages to drown out the commentators from time to time. Should I spray some Raid in there or what?

So I was watching BBC World News yesterday and they had this extended segment on the World Cup. They had a correspondent roaming the streets of Soweto and he went into this one person's house and it was hilarious. There were maybe twenty people crammed into a small living room, huddled around a television. And as he was trying to ask them questions, they were all just looking at their TV, or dancing, and at the least just ignoring him, but whatever they were doing, they were also blowing their vuvuzelas. Inside. To each other. It was incredibly loud, and hilarious.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:28 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


I fully expect England to spectacularly underachieve in the World Cup. The weight of expectation gets heavier with every passing tournament; besides if we win, what would we moan about for the next 4 years?

Did anyone else see what Glenn Beck had to say about football? As for the quote further down the page, half the fun is mocking footballers' hair.
posted by arcticseal at 5:31 AM on June 12, 2010


My Dad watched the RSA:Mexico match with me and kept asking if it was mosquitos he could hear on the tv.
posted by arcticseal at 5:32 AM on June 12, 2010


Dear AskMe, I think there's a beehive in my TV because every time I tune in to watch a world cup match, the damn thing won't stop buzzing! It even manages to drown out the commentators from time to time. Should I spray some Raid in there or what?

If you can't hear the commentators, then it is a feature not a bug.
posted by eviltwin at 5:33 AM on June 12, 2010


If soccer is a sport for socialists, why is Greece losing? HEY-OH!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:50 AM on June 12, 2010 [5 favorites]


We are Americans, we need the commentaters because we have no idea what is going on. Offsides? But the play already started
like 20 minutes ago! Hey! That guy by the net just touched the ball with his hands and the ref missed it!
posted by furiousxgeorge at 5:58 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


ESPN3.com has all the matches streaming.
posted by josher71 at 6:01 AM on June 12, 2010 [3 favorites]


Speaking as an American who is still fuzzy with a few of the rules, what was the deal with the Mexican goal in the first half that was called back? The commentators during the game said it was a horrible call, that it should have been called a goal because there was a defender standing on one of the goalposts and therefore the Mexican player couldn't have been offsides. After the game, a different set of commentators said it was not a goal, that the offsides was correct, because (and here's what I didn't understand) either the player was behind the goalie, which is offsides, or there needed to be two defenders on the goalposts for it to not be called offsides. Any help?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:06 AM on June 12, 2010


You think? Celtics in 7. Heard it here.

One can dream. I love the quote -- was it from Rivers? "When we lose, we're too old. When we win, we have more experience." It's all about the intensity level for the Celtics, because they're not really the better team -- they won game three because they just plain wanted it worse. I hope they can keep it up, but skill for skill, the Lakers will beat them without that intensity, and perhaps they're too old to do that game after game.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:07 AM on June 12, 2010


Aw man, Sarge... that last clip you posted got me all misty eyed and patriotic.
The winter Olympics proved to me that I am a massive sucker for sports montages set to rousing music.

I don't know jack about soccer, but trying to learn, with the added incentive of my own personal Brit to talk smack with. I think I prefer NFL football, just because having a game end at 0-0 is frustrating.

Also, I think I want a vuvuzela. Just sayin.
posted by SaharaRose at 6:13 AM on June 12, 2010


Win it for Cadbury, England!

What? No, of course I won't be watching it, I have to catch up on Doctor Who.
posted by Quantum's Deadly Fist at 6:14 AM on June 12, 2010


they won game three because...

Argh. Game 4.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:17 AM on June 12, 2010


Yay for mindless jingoism.

Come on, lighten up.
posted by Garak at 6:19 AM on June 12, 2010


AH&WO, two defenders.
http://theoriginalwinger.com/2010-06-11-south-africa-vs-mexico-highlights-mexicos-offsides-goal-disallowed
posted by Feisty at 6:20 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


So the World Cup's on is it?
posted by unSane at 6:20 AM on June 12, 2010


Great link, Feisty, thanks.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:22 AM on June 12, 2010


Oh dear, the absurd flop at 0:20 in NolanRyanHatesMatches's link was almost too good for my frail constitution to suffer. Please post more youtube clips of soccer players flying onto the ground, their faces an index of human agony, in response to the slightest change in the breeze.
posted by cirripede at 6:23 AM on June 12, 2010


no, don't. they all remind me of the time i was asked to guard the other team's star player and took the ball in the face
posted by infini at 6:29 AM on June 12, 2010


MeTa
posted by ardgedee at 6:38 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


witty jingoism is fine, this song sung to Australian cricket fans being a fine example. God Save Your Gracious Queen (can't find a video) is another favourite

It's the borish nature of a lot of it that I dislike. As mentioned above, ten german bombers is a pretty vile example. That gets sung regardless of opposition.

The mindlessness of Eng-ger-land, Eng-ger-land just re-enforces the stereotype of the sweaty red-faced football fan I'd like to leave behind. Not sure the agressive undertones of U-S-A, U-S-A does the American fan any favours either.

In summary; clever thoughtful chants good, endlessly shouting your address, bad.
posted by fatfrank at 6:39 AM on June 12, 2010


That's your answer to everything, stinkycheese.
posted by mccarty.tim at 6:43 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Speaking as an American who is still fuzzy with a few of the rules, what was the deal with the Mexican goal in the first half that was called back? The commentators during the game said it was a horrible call, that it should have been called a goal because there was a defender standing on one of the goalposts and therefore the Mexican player couldn't have been offsides.

The guy who was saying that was 100%, shockingly wrong. Offsides is judged by the second to last defender, so if you're closer to the goalline than both the ball, and the second to last defender, you are offside. There, the goalie came out, so the guy on the line was the last defender, and the goalie was the second to last defender. The Mexican player was closer to the goalline than the goalie and the ball, so he was offsides. If you watched the replay, the production crew actually highlighted the space between the goalie and the Mexican player, showing how he was offsides.

Why ESPN hired a commentator who understands the offside rule so poorly is another question entirely.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:45 AM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Err. So. Apparently Flash won't let you fullscreen video on one monitor while working on another. So I can't stream ESPN3 onto my TV while doing computer stuff on my laptop. In this here 21st century. This is because Flash is ballsacks with no balls in them.

No, this didn't work.
posted by dirigibleman at 6:53 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Why ESPN hired a commentator who understands the offside rule so poorly is another question entirely.

But he has an English accent!
posted by dirigibleman at 6:53 AM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


"Never thought I'd say this, but between the witless braying of "USA, USA, USA" and "Eng-ger-lund, Eng-ger-lund", I'm actually thankful for the drone of the vuvuzela."

At least us witless England fans keep it off the front page.

"I hereby declare mefi a completely us-centric zone today. With England already humbly admitting that they will win the 2010 world cup, one can only hope the freedom loving US soccer team can step up to the 'plate' today and send them homewards to think again."

I'm incredibly sorry, but how is this cool?
posted by nthdegx at 6:54 AM on June 12, 2010


USA is #1, it comes with certain privileges.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 7:00 AM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Wow. This is eye opening.
posted by nthdegx at 7:01 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


ENGLAND
posted by jpcooper at 7:07 AM on June 12, 2010


> "I hereby declare mefi a completely us-centric zone today. With England already humbly admitting that they will win the 2010 world cup, one can only hope the freedom loving US soccer team can step up to the 'plate' today and send them homewards to think again."

I'm incredibly sorry, but how is this cool?


Sgt.Serenity is a Scot, and hence I suspect this is just a textbook case of ABE.
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 7:13 AM on June 12, 2010


Speaking as an American, when you watch these games with hockey rules in mind, the match becomes both more understandable and more puzzling: "Okay, I understand why the forward kicked the ball laterally rather than down the pitch, but how come he just ran around the opponent rather than check him to the ground?"
posted by ardgedee at 7:13 AM on June 12, 2010 [7 favorites]


Captain Literal takes things literally.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:13 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


"Captain Literal takes things literally

No no, don't get me wrong, I see the intended irony -- the Red Dawn clip works well -- but showing actual clips of USA beating the UK sort of sthe effect. The "freedom loving" comment works, but the linked Capello article entirely undoes all the good work. I read it as an *actual* jingoistic post and comment with a few ironic winks thrown in to appease the intelligensia.

Sometimes, however much he looks at the camera, Ricky Gervais *is* just making midget jokes.
posted by nthdegx at 7:22 AM on June 12, 2010


"Sgt.Serenity is a Scot"

Well that explains the invoking of Flower of Scotland.
posted by nthdegx at 7:23 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Covered in bees!
posted by dirigibleman at 7:26 AM on June 12, 2010 [3 favorites]


I'm incredibly sorry, but how is this cool?

The OP is a Scot, and so would prefer to see England hammered and sent home in ignominy.

Which is fair enough. I'm sure that if the Scots played football and had a national team, the English would be much the same back.
posted by reynir at 7:27 AM on June 12, 2010 [10 favorites]


"Curse the blasted jelly-boned swines, the slimy belly-wriggling invertebrates, the miserable sodding rotters, the flaming sods, the snivelling, dribbling, dithering, palsied pulseless lot that make up England today. They've got white of egg in their veins and their spunk is that watery it's a marvel they can breed." - D.H. Lawrence

Just sayin.
posted by NolanRyanHatesMatches at 7:29 AM on June 12, 2010 [4 favorites]


D. H. Lawrence was from Nottingham.
posted by nthdegx at 7:31 AM on June 12, 2010


Perhaps I should finish that quote, then "... Why, why, why was I born an Englishman! - my cursed, rotten-boned, pappy-hearted countrymen, why was I sent to them?"
posted by NolanRyanHatesMatches at 7:36 AM on June 12, 2010


Finishing the quote changes nothing, does it? The point is that a person insulting a nationality from within is *very* different to someone insulting it from outside. What's your point with that particular quotation?
posted by nthdegx at 7:45 AM on June 12, 2010


Is this something you'd have to be not USAian to understand?
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 7:47 AM on June 12, 2010


they all remind me of the time i was asked to guard the other team's star player and took the ball in the face

At one of my first-ever soccer practices in elementary school, our coaches were trying to teach us to head the ball by flicking it off the ground to about head-height. The first time I ever tried to head the ball the coach flicked it right into my face shockingly hard and knocked me down. I was never good at heading.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:52 AM on June 12, 2010


Let's just remember this instead, shall we?
posted by Electric Dragon at 8:09 AM on June 12, 2010


Hopefully the intensifying of the ABE wankery will lead to even more children and disabled people getting the shit kicked out of them.

posted by Quantum's Deadly Fist at 8:13 AM on June 12, 2010


fourcheesemac: “You think? Celtics in 7. Heard it here.”

No, silly. As much as I'm sure sarge would love to see a Scottish local team win, they only allow national teams in the World Cup.
posted by koeselitz at 8:16 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


And as far as England winning the World Cup is concerned: isn't it pretty much a tradition now for England to claim they're going to win? Not that such haughtiness can be forgiven at all at this point. Jesus, what in god's name is Capello thinking? 'Well, see, it was a fluke when Brazil tore us limb from limb and then danced with our rotting corpse during the finals a few months ago! Honest! We've been practicing!"
posted by koeselitz at 8:23 AM on June 12, 2010




koselitz, I think the manager's allowed to say he thinks his team will get to the final. It wouldn't do much for the players' confidence if he said otherwise, is it? As much as it's good fun to assume we all think the same, I don't think you'll find any England fans that really honestly do. I admit the media coverage *within the UK* can be somewhat annoying with its obsession with England's chances.

"Well, see, it was a fluke when Brazil tore us limb from limb and then danced with our rotting corpse during the finals a few months ago!"

The finals? A few months ago? You mean the 2002 finals 8 years ago? That was the last time England played Brazil in the finals. We were 1-0 up and out played them in the first half. Ronaldinho fluked a freak goal to win. I'm not saying we deserved to win it, but I don't recognise your match report.
posted by nthdegx at 8:37 AM on June 12, 2010


In all fairness, Koeselitz, what do you expect him to say?

"Yeah, sorry, we're a bit crap and we probably won't make the Quarter-finals."

Not exactly rousing leadership for the team, is it?
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 8:38 AM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


*would it?*
posted by nthdegx at 8:44 AM on June 12, 2010


Who among you has the fortitude to accept my bet, you freckled jackanapes? I hereby MOCK your North American superpower and the poesy-writing skills of its inhabitants, and I seek to challenge one of you to trial by football. The loser writes a sonnet in praise of the winning nation.

Wager with me IF YOU DARE, scullions!
posted by the quidnunc kid at 8:52 AM on June 12, 2010


I like the quaint little stadium in the 1950 England-U.S. video (fifth USA! link in the FPP). I guess the football wasn't so popular in those days (oh wait...).
posted by hangashore at 8:53 AM on June 12, 2010


peace loving england fans
posted by sgt.serenity at 8:58 AM on June 12, 2010


Well, if this thread didn't need deleting already, it sure does now. Then we can sell the movie rights to Mel Gibson.
posted by nthdegx at 9:05 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


> peace loving england fans

Yes, because football hooliganism isn't an international problem, not at all. And as for those Scots, they're all a bunch of angels, too. HAMBURGER.

Football hooligans are, if my fellow mefites will pardon the expression, fuckwits.

All of them, regardless of nationality.

Using hooliganism as a club to support this spiteful jingoism is just fucking stupid.
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 9:13 AM on June 12, 2010


nthdegx: “The finals? A few months ago? You mean the 2002 finals 8 years ago? That was the last time England played Brazil in the finals. We were 1-0 up and out played them in the first half. Ronaldinho fluked a freak goal to win. I'm not saying we deserved to win it, but I don't recognise your match report.”

Ah, sorry. It certainly wasn't finals, and I hadn't realized that it was just a friendly match England played against Brazil last year. Still, it was pretty evident then, I think, that Brazil's finesse and intelligence at this point simply outmatches that of the England team. I don't mean that England doesn't have a chance, but Brazil really dominated in that game, particularly as it went on; I got the feeling that playing against teams like Croatia and Andorra had gotten England to the point where they relied far too much on the individualist, confrontational play that is so particularly English.

And Brazil doesn't even have the capabilities that Argentina does.
posted by koeselitz at 9:17 AM on June 12, 2010


England will win. And if we don't it's because the devious foreign teams have cheated somehow. It's just that simple.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:21 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Go USA! And Mo Edu to score.
posted by the cuban at 9:23 AM on June 12, 2010


"the individualist, confrontational play that is so particularly English"

What?
posted by nthdegx at 9:26 AM on June 12, 2010


I'll take your little bet, quidnunc! Go, the team that makes me win!
posted by fleacircus at 9:32 AM on June 12, 2010


sgt.serenity: “peace loving england fans”

Given that Scottish football is in a sorry state today largely because they were late to the table in the shitty, shitty British system of big-money stakes and television deals proffered by R Murdoch; and given that that system of shit was allowed to conquer English football in the first place because R Murdoch's very good friend Maggot, aided by the most spineless FA chairman the world has ever seen, kindly stepped in and swiftly kicked English football in the nether regions by blaming it when it would have made more sense to blame shoddy Belgian engineering, forcing it into decline and leaving it floundering for support and direction at just the right time for R Murdoch to make his lucrative business propositions; and given that, by virtue of all this, the invocation of haughty, stern moralism over 'English football hooliganism' is historically linked with bigotry and prejudice and greed –

Given all that, doesn't it seem like this is just a little bit too much?
posted by koeselitz at 9:34 AM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


[few comments removed - genocide jokes go home please.]
posted by jessamyn at 9:52 AM on June 12, 2010


me: “the individualist, confrontational play that is so particularly English”

nthdegx: “What?”

Well, er – first of all, I'm no expert on football. I watch it regularly, though, and I try to follow various teams. (Manchester City, for one, largely because they're a lot of fun to watch right now.) So while I know it's really just a layman's opinion, and I don't know how much I can say technically, it seems to me, comparing what I see when I watch Brazil and Argentina with the style of play I'm used to seeing when I watch English teams in general and the England team itself in particular, that there's a very distinct style of play that the English tend to encourage which seems quite different to me from the style of play I see when I watch South American football. The latter seems much more about finesse, about a kind of careful aloofness. Whereas English football seems characterized by what I've heard people call "the attacking spirit." That's not to say that there's anything wrong with that way of playing football; and I think it's interesting to watch. But I wonder if maybe it's limited in the face of a style with a bit more finesse.
posted by koeselitz at 9:52 AM on June 12, 2010


If you can't hear the commentators, then it is a feature not a bug.

Oh come one. I love the commentary. Just this morning - "That was almost wonderful!" How can you not love that?

I love everything about the World Cup. International sport brings people together to celebrate life and friendly competition - all in glorious, world-class matches in HD, 5.1 surround sound.

Go England!
posted by jimmythefish at 9:59 AM on June 12, 2010


[Also, I think it's pretty much obligatory in this thread to link to the classic Monkey Dust "England crushes Scotland!" sketch.]
posted by koeselitz at 9:59 AM on June 12, 2010


peace loving england fans
posted by sgt.serenity at 8:58 AM on June 12


Interesting documentary though...
posted by ts;dr at 10:15 AM on June 12, 2010


peace loving england fans

Also knock this right off, please. MetaTalk is your option.
posted by jessamyn at 10:16 AM on June 12, 2010


As a Dutchman, I think the best thing I can do to bring the nice back in this thread is this:

Archie Gemmill scores for Scotland v Holland, 1978
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:21 AM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


*hurriedly withdraws foot before modsnotice*
posted by infini at 10:23 AM on June 12, 2010


I love England and everything they represent! Our team is good but their team is good too! I hope we tie!
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:31 AM on June 12, 2010 [12 favorites]


Trash talk is not allowed among the genteel and refined of Metafilter.
posted by Snyder at 10:33 AM on June 12, 2010


/unless the subject is those terrible Philly fans.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:34 AM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


then what's the fun of watching football together guys if we can't yell at the screen nad chuck empties at the ref?
posted by infini at 10:34 AM on June 12, 2010


okay, koeselitz, I understand you a bit better now, and while I agree both European continental and Latin American football rely on fluid passes, you are arguably more likely to see in those leagues and international teams a reliance on pieces of individual brilliance to win matches that I would say is less of a feature of English or British football. Part of the reason for this, I think, is that in the UK football is traditionally a winter sport, often played on boggy, muddy pitches where flare doesn't really cut it. What is a feature of British football I would argue is a greater tempo, which is arguably more possibly in our relatively cooler climate. But it is still a very passing game, but it's more likely to be one touch passing, more movement, and more counter-attacking. I don't know that I'd characterise it as more confrontational, exactly, unless you're thinking of a minority of badly behaved players, that certainly have their equals overseas.
posted by nthdegx at 10:35 AM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


And a Spaniard will win that too. Spain: our economy may suck, but we're good with balls.
posted by Skeptic


Nadal and Gasol are both extremely lovable as people, and Nadal seems to interest more of the young women I know than any athlete who's come along in quite a while.
posted by jamjam at 10:40 AM on June 12, 2010


paulo rossi, world cup espana '82
posted by infini at 10:42 AM on June 12, 2010


Over here in Berlin it's getting a bit uncomfortable, the amount of flag waving and nationalistic outpouring is really inescapable.
I just hope that this is all going to be over very soon.

(and yes, hooliganism is not only an english problem)
posted by ts;dr at 10:58 AM on June 12, 2010


I'll take your little bet, quidnunc! Go, the team that makes me win!

Good fellow! As stated, the loser writes a sonnet dedicated to the winner's (country's) glory.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 11:10 AM on June 12, 2010


Sorry, did I miss something?

Have you guys decided to take part in a World Cup where other countries are allowed to take part? Bloody hell. You know there's a chance you might not win, right?

Says the lone British male who couldn't give a rat's arse about football. Don't these people know that the world cup is in New Zealand next year...?
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 11:14 AM on June 12, 2010


Is it just me or is ABC's coverage trying to spin some blue collar ragtag versus elitist narrative? Ugh.
posted by Dr. Zira at 11:15 AM on June 12, 2010


I think the problem with this post is that if you're not from the UK you're not really going to understand the motivations for making it. If there was any doubt about those motivations, they were removed by the "peaceful England fans" comment. There are so many ways to make an interesting FPP about this world cup: the vuvuzela, the strong representation of African nations, anything about actual football. Taking one match, the most extremely one-sided stance on it designed to goad readers of one particular country (with the flimsy defence of a layer of irony)... that's a very flimsy case for an FPP and should be sufficient reason for deletion IMO. But it's a bit worse than that. Apparently the c word is offensive to Americans in ways in which I cannot understand. That's okay. I won't say it. But take my word for it that this thread isn't much fun if you're English, as evidenced by the comments of almost every English person that's responded above. Perhaps someone can fill me in on what A.B.E. stands for because here it just feels like casual, thinly-veiled racism. The one thing I didn't mention about that 2002 England versus Brazil match: I was in Edinburgh when I saw it -- a city I've spent some time living in. I understand in a way most people won't what this is all about. There's a video clip from The Patriot in the post, FFS.
posted by nthdegx at 11:18 AM on June 12, 2010 [3 favorites]


If soccer is a sport for socialists, why is Greece losing? HEY-OH!

You either haven't watched our team or our government.
posted by ersatz at 11:20 AM on June 12, 2010


goal!
posted by dhruva at 11:34 AM on June 12, 2010


And England has scored already! Ruh roh.
posted by misha at 11:35 AM on June 12, 2010


England winning in the bad haircut stakes, Aaron Lennon also adding in stylised eyebrows.

USA badly need Alexi Lalas circa 1994 if they're to have any hope of winning the Hair Cup 2010.
posted by djgh at 11:37 AM on June 12, 2010


Well done, ITV1 HD. They managed to cut to an unscheduled advert and miss the goal. Should have expected it really.
posted by Electric Dragon at 11:37 AM on June 12, 2010


And worth noting that on ITV, Andy Townsend initially said that Gerrard slotted home with the outside of his boob, a thinly veiled dig at Gerrard's corpulent figure if ever I saw one. I for one was outraged, outraged I tell you.
posted by djgh at 11:40 AM on June 12, 2010


the shitty, shitty British system of big-money stakes and television deals proffered by R Murdoch; and given that that system of shit was allowed to conquer English football in the first place because R Murdoch's very good friend Maggot, aided by the most spineless FA chairman the world has ever seen, kindly stepped in and swiftly kicked English football in the nether regions by blaming it when it would have made more sense to blame shoddy Belgian engineering

Hang on...Heysel was 1985, Murdoch's satellite TV service didn't even exist then, was losing money till the early 90s, and only started broadcasting football in 93. Much as I hate Thatcher and Murdoch, I'm not sure you can draw a direct connection here. [And I doubt the Scots would have got much money no matter what: there's a global following for the English game - only two clubs in Scotland get any real support, and they're not actually very good]

Not to mention that Liverpool fans did riot at Heysel, and did attack Juventus fans, ultimately causing the collapse of the wall. That a number of Liverpool fans were convicted of manslaughter. That the ban on English clubs was imposed by UEFA.
And that this was only the worst example of hooliganism that had been going on for decades. I'm not sure how much we can blame Thatcher and Murdoch for that, and absolve English fans.
posted by Infinite Jest at 11:41 AM on June 12, 2010


har har har har what a joke on ITV, to forever be upheld of an example of "look what happens boys if you take your eye off the ball for even one second" for generations of schoolboys to come
posted by infini at 11:42 AM on June 12, 2010


Perhaps someone can fill me in on what A.B.E. stands for because here it just feels like casual, thinly-veiled racism.

£5 says it's Anyone But England: ABU stands for Anyone But (Manchester) United.

Meaning (as I'm sure is obvious) that the speaker supports whoever is playing England. Not a whole lot of racism there.
posted by Infinite Jest at 11:43 AM on June 12, 2010


Very entertaining match thus far. Given that my country seems incapable of getting a team to the World Cup, that seems all I can ask.
posted by never used baby shoes at 11:53 AM on June 12, 2010


For any Americans unfamiliar, Dempsey plays for Fulham (a mid table, small Premiership side). Fulham had a fantastic run to the final of the Europa League (the step down below the Champions League, previously known as the UEFA Cup) this season.

Along the way, Fulham played Juventus, a much bigger name (although recently weakened due to being relegated in relation to a match fixing scandal).

Having lost 3-1 in the first leg, Fulham faced an uphill battle, needing to win by three goals to go through. Dempsey finished magnificently in the last ten minutes, giving Fulham a 4-1 win - a 5-4 victory overall.
posted by djgh at 11:55 AM on June 12, 2010 [3 favorites]


Ooops
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:10 PM on June 12, 2010


no way, what a miss by the goalie! 1-1! unbelievable!
posted by dhruva at 12:11 PM on June 12, 2010


Er.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 12:11 PM on June 12, 2010


Robert Green - the new Paul Robinson?

Discuss.
posted by djgh at 12:11 PM on June 12, 2010


Wow.
posted by Sailormom at 12:12 PM on June 12, 2010


Heh, I see Robert Green's wiki entry already has some subtle vandalism.... (I was just checking if he had some Scottish or American relatives)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:17 PM on June 12, 2010


I'm trying to guess the score by the sound of WOOOOO and AUURRRGHH coming from, well, all angles, us being in flats. I think it's 7-9? To them?
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 12:18 PM on June 12, 2010


imperial colonialists peegs red vs. imperial colonialists peegs blue : go england!

seriously though, my mother is argentinian, and my father brazilian.
towards the semi-finals it tends to suck around here.
just call me laffytaffy.
posted by talaitha at 12:19 PM on June 12, 2010


I was unhappy when England was up 1-0, but now that my team has scored the tie is back on! Hooray for the tie and internationally friendly and polite relations! I'll be rooting for both goalies for the second half!
posted by furiousxgeorge at 12:21 PM on June 12, 2010


"one of the weakest goals you'll see at this level."
posted by The Esteemed Doctor Bunsen Honeydew at 12:22 PM on June 12, 2010


slash I love the little "yeah dudes, my bad" handwave Green threw up right after the goal.
posted by The Esteemed Doctor Bunsen Honeydew at 12:23 PM on June 12, 2010


Hah, and I was just discussing with my father how none of the top Premiership clubs have an English goalie. Oops. Poor guy.
posted by ersatz at 12:24 PM on June 12, 2010


Still I think it was very sporting of us to put Frank Spencer in goal
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:26 PM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


I was unhappy when England was up 1-0, but now that my team has scored the tie is back on! Hooray for the tie and internationally friendly and polite relations! I'll be rooting for both goalies for the second half!

Please don't do this. You're still supporting competition between two allies. Let's all root for both squads to realize the futility of sport, lay down their jerseys, and come together as equals in inspired cooperation. Together they could build a house for an impoverished SA family, or knit a set of blankets for the homeless.

GO EVERYONE!!!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 12:30 PM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Also, the buzzing noise from the horns is giving me a headache and making me nauseous. This is not going to bring in new American fans, it's more like A Clockwork Orange style brainwashing via association that is going to make Americans physically unable to watch the sport.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 12:33 PM on June 12, 2010


Was that Frank Spencer? Looked to me like Bill Buckner had made his way onto the England squad.
posted by Grimgrin at 12:35 PM on June 12, 2010


I love the buzzing noise. I like to imagine everyone in the crowd has been issued a Hurdy Gurdy.
posted by cloeburner at 12:36 PM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


there are fireworks going off outside on the street and I can't get my stupid TV to work

what just happened?
posted by infini at 12:38 PM on June 12, 2010


Argh, Heskey couldn't finish a cup of lukewarm tea.
posted by djgh at 12:41 PM on June 12, 2010


there are fireworks going off outside on the street and I can't get my stupid TV to work

what just happened?


Unless the States are getting the games on a five minute delay - nothing.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 12:41 PM on June 12, 2010


Great saves at either end.
posted by never used baby shoes at 12:55 PM on June 12, 2010


Yay tie! Everyone is a winner!
posted by furiousxgeorge at 1:24 PM on June 12, 2010


A draw - what happens now? The Chevys stop on the field and offer the British soldiers a ride?
posted by never used baby shoes at 1:26 PM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


fleacircus, I owe you a sonnet to the USA:

The noble balded eagle soars in flight
And o'er a verdant field below he spies
Three lions, roaring, pacing, full of might,
With raging malice flaming in their eyes!
And yet, this vigorous raptor feels no fear:
He laughs, and merely stretches out his claws,
And swoops upon the lions from the rear
Avoiding, skilfully, their lion jaws!
Great wonder! That this just and virile bird -
A symbol of a land that's brave and free -
Triumphs over England's prideful herd
And makes our foolish lions turn and flee!
Most joyous site, for all who justice love -
America! Your eagle soars above!
posted by the quidnunc kid at 1:26 PM on June 12, 2010 [10 favorites]


furiousxgeorge: "Yay tie! Everyone is a winner!"

Juice boxes and orange quarters for everyone!
posted by octothorpe at 1:26 PM on June 12, 2010 [8 favorites]


Yay tie! Everyone is a winner!


No, England "lost", USA "won".
posted by iviken at 1:27 PM on June 12, 2010


sorry, I meant the Dodges, not the Chevys
posted by never used baby shoes at 1:27 PM on June 12, 2010


If England were the Colombian team their goaltender would be found dead with a bullet hold in the back of his head.
posted by Justinian at 1:30 PM on June 12, 2010


if all the games are ties what then? the world cup will extend into the Fall?
posted by infini at 1:31 PM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


As it is he can just expect to have vicious chants about this incident whenever he plays in England and to be roundly mocked on panel shows.
posted by Grimgrin at 1:32 PM on June 12, 2010


well thats just great, a draw and im sure everybody is happy with that.
posted by sgt.serenity at 1:34 PM on June 12, 2010


If England were the Colombian team their goaltender would be found dead with a bullet hold in the back of his head.

If he reads tomorrow's headlines, he may wish that fate...
posted by Skeptic at 1:36 PM on June 12, 2010


that's goalkeeper
posted by infini at 1:38 PM on June 12, 2010


"Not a whole lot of racism there"

No indeed. Just some. And what turns out to be an acceptable amount. Mind boggling.
posted by nthdegx at 1:38 PM on June 12, 2010


The red-blooded American in me can not abide in a sport that allows games to "end" in draws. It ain't over 'til it's over, dammit!
posted by Burhanistan at 1:39 PM on June 12, 2010


Seen this?

(Btw, Steven Gerrard was just now talking to tv reporters, wearing a USA jersey.)
posted by iviken at 1:40 PM on June 12, 2010


The red-blooded American in me can not abide in a sport that allows games to "end" in draws.

American football allows games to end in a tie.
posted by dirigibleman at 1:44 PM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


And the first joke about cheering for a tie was quite funny, even though it was founded on the premise that because a comment about the genocide of the English was deleted, it's therefore unacceptable to cheer for your team. That's too uncertain a premise to repeat your joke three or four times. And by uncertain, I mean patently ridiculous.
posted by nthdegx at 1:45 PM on June 12, 2010


> American football allows games to end in a tie.

Huh? Maybe high school level. NFL is sudden death overtime.
posted by Burhanistan at 1:49 PM on June 12, 2010


"Not a whole lot of racism there"

No indeed. Just some. And what turns out to be an acceptable amount. Mind boggling.


Bloody hell, dude. Last I checked the English aren't a historically downtrodden demographic group. You're seriously mad that a Scot doesn't like the English football team? Clearly Yankees haters or Man U haters are racist against New Yorkers or Mancunians then.
posted by kmz at 1:50 PM on June 12, 2010 [2 favorites]


Huh? Maybe high school level. NFL is sudden death overtime.

Yeah. And if neither team scores in overtime, the game ends in a... wait for it... tie.
posted by Justinian at 1:51 PM on June 12, 2010


dirigibleman: "The red-blooded American in me can not abide in a sport that allows games to "end" in draws.

American football allows games to end in a tie.
"

But only in season play and it's only happened four time in the last two decades.
posted by octothorpe at 1:52 PM on June 12, 2010


Everyone is a winner!
Except Robert Green. I have sent Fabio Capello an email saying that I am willing to come out of international retirement and be considered again as England goalkeeper, and that I don't believe my lack of ever having played at a professional level (or indeed any level outside "colleagues 7-a-side") should be held against me.
posted by Electric Dragon at 1:53 PM on June 12, 2010


> Yeah. And if neither team scores in overtime, the game ends in a... wait for it... tie.

There have been only a dozen or so ties since they changed the rules 30 years ago.
posted by Burhanistan at 1:53 PM on June 12, 2010


Huh? Maybe high school level. NFL is sudden death overtime.

Nope. If the first overtime period (equal in time to a quarter) ends with no score, and it's not the postseason, the game would end in a tie.

Postseason is a bit more complicated now. Used to be full sudden death, now if the first possession ends in a field goal, the other teams gets one possession to equal or better it.

College rules do preclude a tie though. That's what leads to ridiculously long games with 7 OTs.
posted by kmz at 1:55 PM on June 12, 2010


There have been only a dozen or so ties since they changed the rules 30 years ago.

And there have only been 18 perfect games in baseball in the last 110 years. (Sorry Galarraga.) But that doesn't mean that perfect games aren't allowed. Similarly, that ties are infrequent in the NFL doesn't mean that they do not exist or are considered antithetical to the sport.

Frankly, I'd rather games ended in a tie than the b.s. sudden death overtime we have now where 1/3 of teams never even touch the ball in OT because the guys who win the toss kick a field goal.
posted by Justinian at 2:03 PM on June 12, 2010


Proposal: The home team always receives first in OT in American Football. Okay, I'd rather they just use the college rules but failing that... make homefield advantage mean something.
posted by Justinian at 2:04 PM on June 12, 2010


"Bloody hell, dude. Last I checked the English aren't a historically downtrodden demographic group. You're seriously mad that a Scot doesn't like the English football team? Clearly Yankees haters or Man U haters are racist against New Yorkers or Mancunians then.

Hmm. I'm not sure the downtroddenness of the recipient is a measure of how racist something is. Mad that a Scot doesn't like the English football team? Crikey, if that were true I'd never sleep. I'm just astounded it's a permissable subtext for an FPP. I'd be astounded if Yankee-haters or Man U haters making FPPs about their hatred got away with it too. Hate is precisely the word.
posted by nthdegx at 2:05 PM on June 12, 2010


Dear Lord, please, oh please, don't let the World Cup be decided - again - by kicks from the penalty mark after the game is over. Please.
posted by Xoebe at 2:05 PM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Frankly, I'd rather games ended in a tie than the b.s. sudden death overtime we have now where 1/3 of teams never even touch the ball in OT because the guys who win the toss kick a field goal.

That's why they've changed the rules in the NFL for the postseason.
posted by kmz at 2:13 PM on June 12, 2010



And the first joke about cheering for a tie was quite funny, even though it was founded on the premise that because a comment about the genocide of the English was deleted, it's therefore unacceptable to cheer for your team. That's too uncertain a premise to repeat your joke three or four times. And by uncertain, I mean patently ridiculous.


And the first whiny complaint about jokes was slightly amusing, the constant repetition after the mods already solved the "problem" is just sad and ridiculous. Take it to Meta.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 2:14 PM on June 12, 2010 [3 favorites]


Anyway, blinding game to watch from a neutral pov, I'd imagine.
posted by nthdegx at 2:14 PM on June 12, 2010


nthdegx is right, the english are truly one of the worlds oppressed minorities - as well as having coco the clown for a goalie.
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:20 PM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


So is the feeling that both England and USA should finish out their group with 7 points?
posted by Justinian at 2:23 PM on June 12, 2010


Anyway, blinding game to watch from a neutral pov, I'd imagine.

Second half was a bit dull, and the last 15 minutes or so was dire. Seemed like both teams had settled for a draw.
posted by djgh at 2:27 PM on June 12, 2010


Infinite Jest: “Hang on...Heysel was 1985, Murdoch's satellite TV service didn't even exist then, was losing money till the early 90s, and only started broadcasting football in 93. Much as I hate Thatcher and Murdoch, I'm not sure you can draw a direct connection here. [And I doubt the Scots would have got much money no matter what: there's a global following for the English game - only two clubs in Scotland get any real support, and they're not actually very good] ... Not to mention that Liverpool fans did riot at Heysel, and did attack Juventus fans, ultimately causing the collapse of the wall. That a number of Liverpool fans were convicted of manslaughter. That the ban on English clubs was imposed by UEFA.
And that this was only the worst example of hooliganism that had been going on for decades. I'm not sure how much we can blame Thatcher and Murdoch for that, and absolve English fans.”


I was eliding for the sake of brevity, but I think the point still stands, for a couple of reasons. I think it's pretty much beyond dispute that the big shift in English football, and eventually football all over Britain, toward Sky News, television contracts, and bigger money came about when it did and the way it did precisely because of the 5-year UEFA ban; after that ban, English football was a mess, and happily sold out to Murdoch. I agree that one can hardly say that Thatcher and Murdoch planned this; but the reality of the matter is hardly any less unfortunate. Thatcher and Murdoch were collaborators from the start; and the moment she realized she could, Thatcher used football hooliganism as a rallying political cry, lambasting the sport and making rousing speeches against it, making a show fo "forming a 'War Cabinet'" to fight the apparently unrelenting violence. And throughout it all Murdoch's Sun covered this show with glee.

Moreover, I think Thatcher is in large part responsible for the UEFA ban. There had been rumors, but it was she who demanded that it should happen straight away, making dark threats that she would make it happen if the FA didn't. And I say that Bert Millichip, the FA chairman at the time, was spineless, because he was; he rolled over in the face of this and agreed to an unprecedented and frankly pointless indefinite ban on European competition for British clubs.

Yes, the Liverpool fans were violent that day; yes, hooliganism is a historic problem in the sport, and something that needs dealing with. But Heysel was in disrepair, and that wall was just a pile of bricks virtually designed to kill people. At the very least, the fact that the deaths of dozens of people in an unfortunate and complicated accident were flatly blamed on fans was a severe injustice. Hooliganism has to be confronted and dealt with, but not by politicians out for blood and votes. And historically many of the great "hooliganism tragedies" were judged unfairly. The iconic example of this unfairness is the Hillsborough Disaster. Millichip could easily have argued that this was a complex situation, one that had to be judged carefully. He did not.

Lastly, it's totally unfair to say that Celtic and Rangers are the only teams that "get any real support," and that they are "not actually very good." May be true now, but it certainly hasn't been true historically; Celtic and Rangers were actually very good in the 70s and 80s, and can you really claim that Alex Ferguson's Aberdeen from 1978-1986 wasn't any good? Moreover, I think it's ridiculous to say that there was a "global following" for English football back then. Again, marketing may have created one today, but it wasn't true in the 80s.

And yes, I think the fact of a Scot pointing snidely at "English hooliganism" is sadly ironic for just these reasons.
posted by koeselitz at 2:42 PM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Taxi!
posted by nthdegx at 2:49 PM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


Burhanistan: “The red-blooded American in me can not abide in a sport that allows games to "end" in draws. It ain't over 'til it's over, dammit!”

dirigibleman: “American football allows games to end in a tie.”

It might be worthwhile to note that, at least in the UK, sometimes ties aren't allowed, and extra time is played. The system is complex, I think, and I don't quite understand it. Moreover, in other situations, the strange (and slightly ridiculous, I think) Away Goals rule is followed, whereby goals scored by a team away from their home field count more.

Like I say, I don't really understand it. I think the Away Goals rule is mostly for championship play. Somebody who understands it better might be able to explain it.
posted by koeselitz at 2:53 PM on June 12, 2010


koeselitz:

The Away Goals Rule is only used in the following circumstance: the tournament is in a knock-out format stage, but there are two legs in the round, to compensate for home advantage. This is the case in the knock-out rounds of the Champions League or the semi finals of the English League Cup.

This doesn't happen in league games (or the group stage of the World Cup) which are decided on points and goal difference. Nor does it happen in the FA Cup, which is single match knock-out (a draw in the match leads to a replay at the other team's ground - if that remains tied, it goes to extra time and penalties - away goals don't count extra).
posted by Electric Dragon at 3:14 PM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


And yes, I think the fact of a Scot pointing snidely at "English hooliganism"


Oh come on, be honest with yourself. Better still, go out for a walk on Croydon high street tonight.
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:22 PM on June 12, 2010


now daddy loves you but you know we gotta stomp ya if you get to the next round.
and we will love it.
posted by krautland at 3:46 PM on June 12, 2010


and just so you don't forget...
posted by krautland at 3:53 PM on June 12, 2010


Did nthdegx just bail from MeFi because of this thread? Damn.
posted by danb at 5:04 PM on June 12, 2010


I do find it nutty that American conservative commentators find soccer, whose most vile European supporters espouse the same sort of nationalistic bile the same US commentators spew, to be a "liberal" and "socialistic" sport.

The two biggest soccer nuts I know in my town (where there are 32,000 Sounders season ticket holders) are a raging libertarian and a member of the Young Republicans. And once upon a time my hometown had one of the largest soccer leagues in America and still has a substantial youth system -- a town that of the 50 largest cities in the US gave McCain the largest margin of victory in the 2008 election.

In other words, these guys are idiots, just like Millwall fans. (AMIRITE?)
posted by dw at 5:08 PM on June 12, 2010


sgt.serenity: “Oh come on, be honest with yourself. Better still, go out for a walk on Croydon high street tonight.”

I've never been to England, though I'm Croydon will be 'interesting' this evening. But if you want to say that football hooliganism has long been a problem in the UK, that's fair enough. Let's see... it was just thirty years ago...
posted by koeselitz at 5:13 PM on June 12, 2010


Did nthdegx just bail from MeFi because of this thread? Damn.

Yeah, and I have to say I've gotten a bit more background on the national rivalries and I have to say sgt.serenity you sort of have to leave this alone at this point. No more taunting or shit talking. Go to MeMail, email, SportsFilter [don't know the rules there, maybe not] or elsewhere but no more weird smack-talking-posed-as-posts, it's not okay. Not for "lol phillies fans" and not this. Go to MetaTalk if you need to.
posted by jessamyn at 5:44 PM on June 12, 2010


> Did nthdegx just bail from MeFi because of this thread? Damn.

If so, that's a big shame, a big fucking shame. If you're reading this, nthdegx, please come back.
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 7:18 PM on June 12, 2010


[Yeah, I hate to add to a account-close derail, but I have no other way of saying: nthdegx, I really, really hope I had nothing to do with you leaving, and I really value your contributions, so please come back.]
posted by koeselitz at 7:21 PM on June 12, 2010 [1 favorite]


If nthdegx left over this silly spat, well then he left over this silly spat. Jesus. But by all means come back. I like you, but this is just silly. Silly. Silly.
posted by Dumsnill at 7:42 PM on June 12, 2010


This post should have been deleted a long while ago. I don't blame nthdegx for bailing in the slightest.
posted by unSane at 8:46 PM on June 12, 2010 [3 favorites]


You know, I missed the game entirely, but this thread was vastly entertaining....
posted by jrochest at 8:53 PM on June 12, 2010


Best joke heard so far - "There's one spill the Americans won't be complaining about..."
posted by Abiezer at 9:36 PM on June 12, 2010


Well damn. I guess everything is a sensitive topic where nations are concerned.

I still feel safe ribbing the Limeys though. I would too but the English summer is insult enough.

Hum along. OO=#
posted by vapidave at 12:40 AM on June 13, 2010


butterfinger?
posted by Surfurrus at 2:08 AM on June 13, 2010




Sorry ... I didn't mean to dogpile on the British w/ that last link.

Eh, folks, pick yourself up, dust yourself off ... it ain't over yet!
posted by Surfurrus at 3:37 AM on June 13, 2010


"Sorry ... I didn't mean to dogpile on the British w/ that last link."

Bullshit, if you can't pick on your uncle then family has no chance. Hadrian's wall was built to contain not exclude despite what you may have read. They spoke French for 300 years. They got the worst Fergie. Stonehenge was just dragging rocks and tipping them up. England is Madonna chosen and sunshine shunned. Bed sheets. Simon Cowell.
posted by vapidave at 4:33 AM on June 13, 2010


Simon Cowell

Now, sir, you go too far! I demand satisfaction!
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 5:02 AM on June 13, 2010


Well then, Satisfaction.
posted by vapidave at 8:50 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


That's more like it.
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 9:22 AM on June 13, 2010


They got the worst Fergie.

Now look here *chew* *chew*, I'm not at all concerned by these rumours *chew* *chew*. Cristiano's a fantastic lad *chew* *chew*, and will be staying here next year *chew* *chew*

- Fergie

Also, Special 1 TV is back for the World Cup.

That's an old episode. A few notes:
- Jose = Jose Mourinho, famous for his ego and darling of the English press
- Sven = Sven Goran Eriksson, ex-England manager, somewhat famous for a liaison with ex-TV host Ulrika Jonsson
- Voyeur = Arsene Wenger, manager of Arsenal (big Chelsea rivals)
- Arshavin = Andrei Arshavin, Russian midfielder
- Rafa = ex-Liverpool manager

posted by djgh at 10:58 AM on June 13, 2010


Germany's 4-0 against Australia was a good game. They seem to be a team, not eleven players.
posted by ersatz at 1:26 PM on June 13, 2010


@nthdegx:

I'm sorry, I was way out of line in this thread and you are right it was stupid and should have been shut down. Please come back some time, peace.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 6:38 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]


Koeselitz: Lastly, it's totally unfair to say that Celtic and Rangers are the only teams that "get any real support," and that they are "not actually very good." May be true now, but it certainly hasn't been true historically; Celtic and Rangers were actually very good in the 70s and 80s, and can you really claim that Alex Ferguson's Aberdeen from 1978-1986 wasn't any good? Moreover, I think it's ridiculous to say that there was a "global following" for English football back then. Again, marketing may have created one today, but it wasn't true in the 80s.

Well, look at the ground capacities of clubs like Hibs (13000 odd) and Hearts (17000 odd). Aberdeen holds 22000, but the other clubs all have small grounds by international standards. So that's what I mean by 'not getting any real support' - while their fans are often fanatical, there aren't many of them, hence not much money to be made from TV rights.

Celtic and Rangers were reasonably good for a while there - Celtic of course winning the European Cup - but seriously, they would finish mid-table in any of the major European leagues now, and I doubt they'd have done much better back then. Aberdeen were good thanks to Fergie (though Dundee did well in the early 80s without him). But by the time of Sky, you're looking at a two-horse race - maybe of interest to supporters of those clubs, but without the quality or the competition to attract more casual viewers.

The "global following" for English football: when I was a boy back in the early 80s, we'd get up at 3am to watch the FA Cup final, and make sure to be home from church by 11am to watch the highlights show. Most of the kids with any interest in soccer supported English teams, not New Zealand ones (or anyone else). Maybe I'm over-exaggerating from my own experience though.
posted by Infinite Jest at 5:07 AM on June 16, 2010


Here in the States, until maybe 10 years ago the only club any American knew was Man U. That's still the case among the general public, but when I take my daughter to soccer practice I see a lot of Arsenal, Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barça, and Inter kits on kids mixed in with the Sounders and Man U unis.

The Sounders offer a season ticket section matching system where you can see what teams people in a particular section support besides the Sounders. And yeah, 1 and 2 are some combination of the super-elite in Europe (usually Chelsea and Arsenal), but 3 tends to be something really odd. Two sections had heavy Reading support last year.

Growing up, though, in our town we knew our Roughnecks and most of the NASL, but outside of Man U, the rest of the world was non-existent.
posted by dw at 7:59 AM on June 16, 2010


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