Straight men who are afraid of being seen as gay are missing one of life's great pleasures -- leaving people wondering what the fuck you are.Nthing that.
Pogo_Fuzzybutt: I'd like to refavorite Grobstein's comment from a year ago in a similar discussion, because I couldn't possibly favorite it hard enough.Thanks for linking that! When I typed my last point, that was exactly the comment I was thinking of, but didn't have the wherewithal to track it down.
stinkycheese: Thanks for posting this. I would say Metafilter needs more discussion along these lines...Right, it's a frustrating article because it seems to speak of almost none of the issues I see. I think most of my gripes about standards placed on me as a man stem from the transition to hopefully a much more egalitarian world while some people cling to advantageous throwbacks. An example mentioned earlier is alimony and child support: to my mind, you can't agitate for equality in the workplace and pay, for the unfettered right to choose... and then say your ex has to support you (and your child) financially because "he's the man". In a somewhat related example, when my decent, hard-working, stable parents had to fight my (likely sociopathic) eldest sister for official legal custody of the two kids she neglected and they'd been raising for years already, it was stunning how the South Carolina courts still leaned heavily towards"But... but... she's the mom!" Yeah, and she's a psychotic and unstable junkie, judge!
...though on preview I see that this is actually just talking about douchebags from 1978 (or something). *rolls eyes*
For example, I was going to make a comment about how it's annoying always picking up the tab on the first 3 or so dates, but then decided against it because I could just forsee the multiple responses about how they and their friends always pay 50/50 etc.This is one of those 'no win' scenarios. One the one hand, men are required to pick up the tab - on the other hand, women aren't allowed to pick up or split the tab. I've known men who complain about having to pay for dinner who nonetheless would be horribly offended if a woman tried to pick up the check on the first date. Not that I think you fall under that category, just pointing out that it's a powerful expectation that even folks who dislike it feel they must obey. A woman picking up the tab is supposed to expect a cookie the way a man doing the laundry is supposed to. (And I expect some men get just as tired of that - "Yes, you paid your way, like adults do. You don't get a medal for that.")
Solon and Thanks:I didn't imply it was women, you inferred that. My point was that a thread about and by men discussing their own areas of stereotypes negatively affecting them would get a higher ratio of "This isn't an issue" or "not that bad", and that this would be more okay than the same thread about women. I'd say it's part and parcel of the discussed topic: a man wouldn't normally discuss these things- stiff upper lip and all- and whining is weak. That both men and women can buy into these things is actually the heart of the topic.However, I can't help but chuckle cynically that a thread about the expectations or stereotypes placed upon men will likely:I have to agree with catchingsignals on this. Are we reading the same thread? It's definitely a shame so many men are shrugging off these problems as unimportant (or as simply problems that lower-class troglodytes bring upon themselves or whatever) -- but it's like 99% men doing it, not women, as you seem to be implying.
a) disregard male experiences as unimportant or not the norm anyway
b) suggest it's not that bad, so what do men have to complain about?
c) just get deleted since it's just chatfilter and not worth having a whole thread about this
Nothing: Just look at any of the AskMe threads started by shy guys asking for advice, and the number of women who respond that they would never consider dating a guy who was not confident enough to make the first move. The social penalties for men who step outside of their defined roles can be harsh. Just look at how much more hate is focused on gay men than gay women. For men who play by the rules, the rewards are great. But on the other side of that, men are far more likely to die violently, far more likely to be completely socially outcast. People talk about "nice guys" with such derision and disgust, and perhaps there is a species of "nice guy" which deserves that, but in my experience, that phrase usually describes someone who just isn't very confident - a supreme failing when it comes to manliness.THIS. I find it very frustrating that being decent or respectful is a negative trait when it comes to men. I find it frustrating that women even reinforce the "gotta be confident, confidence is the most important thing!" and justify themselves by saying that "nice guys are secretly evil and misogynistic". Essentially, it feels like the same mindset that justifies listening to right-wing bullies: they are so confident in their politics, they must be right- unlike those liberal pussies! As a guy, it's transparent which other guys I see who are obviously dangerous or predatory or sleazy, and I can't fathom how everyone else doesn't see it. But hey, they're confident and not one of those (sneering) nice guys...
When [male applicants] affected a more cooperative demeanor. . . . they "were viewed as less socially skilled than female" applicants with the same demeanor, "suggesting that atypical men may also risk social backlash" and they received the lowest ratings of all."Of all" meaning, lower ratings, in this particular study, than even the women perceived as "aggressive." (It's only a small study, but googling suggests that there are more like this in the pipeline.) So yes, the guys have opted out of behaving in stereotypically aggressive ways...and, observers of both sexes form poor opinions of them for it. Not such a big deal in this controlled experiment where the observers have no real interaction with the guys. In a work situation, the guys might not ever even know that a supervisor has decided they're "just not leadership material." There's no way to opt out of that.
I started the book when the economy was in a recession, which seemed to support the conventional wisdom that the economy and masculinity are related -- that men feel emasculated when their lives as wage earners are threatened. But I found that as the economy improved, the men I was talking to were still stricken with a sense that they had been betrayed, and that the betrayal went much deeper than a paycheck. It had to do with loyalty and a social pact that they had been led to believe was bedrock and part of being a man. It had to do with work, with the relationship between men and their community, and even with the sense that they could count on their hometown sports team rewarding their loyalty by staying put. Instead, they saw those teams leave town to chase the biggest money offers somewhere, anywhere, else. And buried much deeper down, it also had to do with the loyalty between fathers and sons.This may be a little ranty, or maybe it'll resonate. As one of the middle class, University educated, liberal demographic, I feel like I chose to buy a slightly different bill of goods. I've worked hard to be sensitive, to be "non-violent, respectful of women, emotionally honest, sexually honest, and just generally [my] own best [self]." Not in that whiny, self-proclaimed nice guy way (except maybe right now on MeFi), but in a way where I've actually been a positive catalyst in dozens of people's lives and this course had led me to some recognition and respect in my liberal demographic circles. But it has never been anything but a liability in the long run in dating. Actual break up quotes, to wit: "You taught me to be more independent, more confident [I'm leaving you because you're still living at home, just started your first job and not independent enough]," OR "I don't feel a strong connection [to the person I left you for] like I did with you, no common interests or beliefs... that way there's no pressure." My mother held a serious grudge against me for over a year because I ended a relationship to a long-term SO that she thought (unprovoked) I was going to marry -- the grudge continued even when I told my mom that my partner was suicidal and I stayed with her long enough to get her through it, kept her safe from serious self-harm on several occasions and then I decided that I needed to take care of myself first and broke up with her constructively.
But here’s the thing – as Sathnam Sanghera wrote in The Times when articulating his own desire for fatherhood, “single, straight, 33-year-old men aren’t allowed to confess to broodiness.” The stereotype is that women are the clucky ones who entrap us free-spirited men into settling down, and that we spend the whole time staring wistfully out the window, wishing we were at the pub with our mates.posted by harriet vane at 5:56 AM on July 29, 2010 [1 favorite]
Freyja: A bitter, hateful victim attitude is a thousand times uglier than physical defects.I wonder if you were thinking of anyone in particular when you wrote that.
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posted by modernnomad at 11:59 AM on July 28, 2010