Think Pink.

August 9, 2010 3:59 AM

The Independant's 2010 Pink List... and why Stephen Fry is giving up his Number 3 spot to Louie Spence.

The IoS panel who chose to scorn Louie owe him an apology, and they owe an apology to all like him. There was a time when polari and Julian and Sandy and limp-wristed mincing and winking innuendo were all that came between a certain kind of gay man and his pride, his self-respect and his ability to hold his head high in a hostile world. Read Quentin Crisp’s The Naked Civil Servant or watch John Hurt’s glorious portrayal. It is not the only way for a gay man to be, no one is saying it should be, but it is a wholly proper and acceptable manner (not to mention an often loveable and witty one) and to see it traduced with superiority by the very people who should be supporting and endorsing it sickens me.

- Stephen Fry on The Pink List's Rogues' Gallery

posted by crossoverman (39 comments total)

While I agree with Fry that I think the ability to pass, and butchness are rated highly in the glbtq community, and I think that it is sad and significant that the two fights we seem to be having are about marriage and joining the army, which reinforce his point, he underestimates Thomas for two reasons.

a) Sport is the last bastion of both acceptable homophobia, and pressure to be closeted.
b) Stonewall was also a refuge for working class fags, and the working classes sexualities have always been exploited but not treated as v. autonomous--esp. in the uk. Thomas, as someone who is working class and who functions as a sports figure, is necessary progress.
posted by PinkMoose at 4:22 AM on August 9, 2010

Interesting that a rugby player is number one, but the complete absence of sports figures (and the over-representation of artists and other creative types) in the remainder makes it clear this list is utterly incomplete.

It is not the only way for a gay man to be, no one is saying it should be, but publishing a list like this seems only to reinforce the stereotype. While it might be true that most gay men like the creative arts, surely not the majority of them are to be found there.
posted by three blind mice at 4:24 AM on August 9, 2010

Stephen Fry is a fatuous corporate whore. I am sick of seeing his face on my TV trying to sell me crap. If he is the mighty intellectual that he so obviously believes himself to be, then he would steer well clear of the most banal forces in our society (mass advertising) - but he relishes it because it pays lots of money to his wondrous narcissistic self.
Peter Tatchell is a gay rights campaigner. Fry is a Stephen Fry campaigner. I could go on.
Meh.
posted by Monkeymoo at 4:31 AM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]

Stephen Fry is a fatuous corporate whore. I am sick of seeing his face on my TV trying to sell me crap.

Stephen Fry is a comedic genius of several decades' standing, and if he does a few ads I won't begrudge him that. If a few ads really bother you that much, maybe you should turn your TV off.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:54 AM on August 9, 2010 [11 favorites]

Fry is a Stephen Fry campaigner.

If you think that, it's only because not even Stephen Fry is talented enough to completely conceal his massive, amazing brilliance.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:01 AM on August 9, 2010 [4 favorites]

I love that there are openly gay members of the military on that list.
posted by ChuraChura at 5:04 AM on August 9, 2010

There's also out British politicians, including Nick Herbert who is in a civil partnership. By the way, he's a member of the British conservative party.

27 (70) Nick Herbert; Minister for Policing

A founding member of the Countryside Alliance, he was shadow environment secretary. Now has a wide- ranging brief across the Home Office and Ministry of Justice. Said the Tory stance on gay equality is "neither a temporary phenomenon, nor an agenda which can be reversed".

posted by vacapinta at 5:08 AM on August 9, 2010

Interesting that a rugby player is number one, but the complete absence of sports figures (and the over-representation of artists and other creative types) in the remainder makes it clear this list is utterly incomplete.

Surely that's because there aren't (m)any out sportspeople? (Or sportsmen, anyway). There's been one well-known football player who was openly gay (Fashanau). One rugby player (Thomas, hence why he's number one).

The only way the Indie could put more sportsmen on the list is by outing them itself, which I suspect it isn't prepared to do. Don't blame the compilers, blame the culture of UK sport.
posted by Infinite Jest at 5:13 AM on August 9, 2010

@Halloween Jack
Yep agreed, but there's few celebs that promote quite as many products as Fry. There's also been a huge amount of promotion for Apple, mostly in the form of 'reviews' in which Stephen fauns and dribbles over their latest gadget.
All this would be of less consequence if an essential aspect of his self-branding wasn't The Mighty Intellectual Who Disdains Everydayness In Search Of Truth and Knowledge.
posted by Monkeymoo at 5:16 AM on August 9, 2010

There was a time when polari and Julian and Sandy and limp-wristed mincing and winking innuendo were all that came between a certain kind of gay man and his pride... It is not the only way for a gay man to be, no one is saying it should be, but it is a wholly proper and acceptable manner (not to mention an often loveable and witty one) and to see it traduced with superiority by the very people who should be supporting and endorsing it sickens me.

Er - they put Alan Carr at number 6, a man whose only talent is limp-wristed mincing and winking innuendo. I understand Fry's argument, and I do think this attitude exists, but I think he's reading a bit too much into this list.
posted by creeky at 5:22 AM on August 9, 2010

Stephen Fry is a fatuous corporate whore. I am sick of seeing his face on my TV trying to sell me crap.

Two things: this is the first criticism I've ever read of Fry anywhere and in any context, and living in Australia I had no idea he appears in TV advertising in Britain - though he's certainly a shill for the Apple Corporation wherever he goes (which is fine by me).

If he is the mighty intellectual that he so obviously believes himself to be

I honestly don't think his standing as intellectual, comedian, actor, director, producer, novelist, scriptwriter, playwright, documentarian and cigar aficionado is based - in any sense - on his perceived self-importance. His work is evidence enough of his genius.
posted by crossoverman at 5:24 AM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]

@crossoverman
I certainly agree that he has done many, many things of worth. TBH if this wasn't the case then I wouldn't get as wound up about his unsavoury commercial aspects quite so much. And I do think that his gay rights campaigning has been overblown when compared to others.. but then I'm a huge Peter Tatchell fan so maybe I'm blinkered by him heheh
And if this is the first criticism of him that you've ever read then brilliant! I feel honoured....
posted by Monkeymoo at 5:30 AM on August 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

Two things: this is the first criticism I've ever read of Fry anywhere and in any context...

Here's some more: He's not really that funny. He played Jeeves pretty well, but other than that he's never done more than make me faintly smile (mainly because I recognize That Guy). Also, QI is not. It seems to mainly simulate book reading, only without the plot, suspense or context.

I don't hate Stephen Fry. I just don't get why he is so beloved.
posted by DU at 5:41 AM on August 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

There's also been a huge amount of promotion for Apple, mostly in the form of 'reviews' in which Stephen fauns and dribbles over their latest gadget.

Ah, that's why he's now persona non grata. Got it.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:41 AM on August 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

Hoorah, noted transphobe and all-round troll Julie Bindell made the list! Fuck you, Independent, for including a fierce campaigner against my rights on this prestigious list.

*looks down the list of judges*

Oh. Ben Summerskill. Fuck him, too.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 5:43 AM on August 9, 2010 [5 favorites]

I will pretend that my misspelling of Bindel was an attempt not to set off her google alert because I am smart.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 5:45 AM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

I don't really understand what this list is for, exactly. I mean, some are famous and openly gay. Some, like Jane Hill, are moderately famous and (in public) barely out. Some, like Clare Balding, have been at pains to stress that while they are gay that isn't really what they're about, and dislike being consistently referred to in the media as lesbian sports commentator. Is it just a who's who?

Also, IMHO, most of the comedians on that list are painfully unfunny: Sandi Toksvig, Stephen Fry, Alan Carr, Graham Norton, Paul O'Grady. Is there not a funny comic under the age of 30? Finally, if Louie Spence is out for mincing it, why does Carr make the cut? Enquiring minds demand to know.
posted by MuffinMan at 6:08 AM on August 9, 2010

Finally, if Louie Spence is out for mincing it, why does Carr make the cut? Enquiring minds demand to know.

I thought that was very odd, too - if anything, Carr's mincing is of the old-fashioned 'acceptable, non-threatening, non-sexual, oo-er madam gay entertainer' school, and therefore a bit dubious, in a way that Spence isn't.

painfully unfunny... Paul O'Grady

Lily Savage was painfully funny, live at least. I wish O'Grady would bring her back from the convent for more than the occasional cash-in panto.
posted by a little headband I put around my throat at 6:48 AM on August 9, 2010

They don't count Sandi Toksvig as British, because she emmigrated from Denmark. That's insane.

The British should start doing what every medium or small country does: claim every cool person who ever comes for so much as an extended vacation as their own. If Sandi Toksvig came to Canada and hosted hilarious radio here, we'd claim her.
posted by jb at 6:56 AM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

MuffinMan: Sandi Toksvig is very funny on The News Quiz. Stephen Fry is also far from "painfully unfunny", although I would no longer count him as primarily a comedian.

That said, I agree with Carr, Norton and O'Grady. I suppose comedy is just a matter of taste.
posted by iso_bars at 6:58 AM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

If you don't think Sandi Toksvig is funny, perhaps you should have your ears checked, so that you cam actually hear her on the news quiz. (Or perhaps have your sense of importance checked -- most of the "funny" people in the world are not very funny to me, including 99% of all stand-up comedy. But I assume that this just reflects my taste, which may or may not be the taste of others.)

more seriously: the lack of sportsmen is directly a reflection of the fact that professional sports is a bastion of homophobia -- whereas theatre and the other arts are so pro-gay even some straight people wish they could come out.
posted by jb at 7:08 AM on August 9, 2010

Don't like louie spence not because of the effected campness, but this seems to be the only reason the mainstream are interested in him .Alan carr is a comedian who is also camp whereas LS is a manager/dancer who is famous because he is camp.
I also join the fry haters camp - too pompous and self important and posh. Ok the last one isn't fair but there is an air of born to rule about his approach.
To disguise his dissapointment and bad loser attitude and use LS as a rationale is just cowardice.
posted by dprs75 at 7:33 AM on August 9, 2010

What the fuck, Metafilter, where did all this Fry hate suddenly come from?
posted by Artw at 7:43 AM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

Psst! Stephen Fry likes Apple products! Pass it on!

So did Douglas Adams!
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 7:51 AM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

"Stephen fauns"

It's "fawns." Or it would be, if that's what he was actually trying to do, i.e. court favor with Apple.
posted by HopperFan at 7:54 AM on August 9, 2010

Also, IMHO, most of the comedians on that list are painfully unfunny: Sandi Toksvig, Stephen Fry, Alan Carr, Graham Norton, Paul O'Grady. Is there not a funny comic under the age of 30?

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here - the ones you've listed are all over 30, and you think they're not funny, yet you seem to be wondering if there are any funny comics under 30. I'm going to therefore restrict my list to those who are exactly 30, and so from the list I give you Simon Amstell.
posted by djgh at 7:58 AM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

"Stephen fauns"

It's "fawns."

What about that time I saw him in a meadow, cavorting naked around an iPad while playing the pipes?
posted by Horace Rumpole at 8:06 AM on August 9, 2010 [12 favorites]

Wow. So many people on that list that I hadn't realized were queer. Mary Portas runs one of those great British style reality shows which is built on improving someone's life rather than cutthroat competition or public mocking. Love her. How did I not realize that Mark Gattis and Russell T Davies were gay? And Kele Okereke? I loved Bloc Party's first two albums. Must seek out his solo work. And Allison Goldfrapp? I'm not a huge fan of her work, but wow. And the vampire from Being Human? Holy cow!

It's great to see so many people in UK politics also on this list. I can't imagine a similar list being created here in the US and having many politicians on it at all. Barney Frank.... and... who else?

Good on you, Britain. You set an example for us all with the breadth and inclusiveness of your society as reflected in this list.
posted by hippybear at 8:13 AM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

Julie Bindel is a bad person. Stephen Fry isn't a bad person, but he's turned into a sort of cartoon of himself and he hasn't made me laugh in a very long time. Plus every time he tells that old joke about never seeing a vagina again once he was born, a baby kitten dies.
posted by shinybaum at 9:17 AM on August 9, 2010

djgh: good point. And at some point as I was writing that comment Simon Amstell popped into my head. And then disappeared. It's not just that he's fresher. With the exception of Stephen Fry, who used to be quite funny before he became Twitter's own version of Widow Twanky I never really liked most of them.

As for Sandi Toksvig: I can appreciate why some people find her funny. I put her in the same box as people like the late Alan Coren - they always front a highbrow wordy or quiz shows, they're always described as witty, and at some point their humour's got so dry it's just sort of withered away. In summary: Bone dry bons mots are no subsitute for a good, old fashioned gag.
posted by MuffinMan at 9:53 AM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

FWIW, he's added this update to the blog post:

UPDATE NEWS FLASH

It is axiomatic that panels and judges of prizes or compilers of lists always sit in conditions of utmost secrecy, but I have had private word of an element of the deliberations that tells me that maybe the deliberators weren’t to blame, but some Sindie journalist who took it upon him or her self to write the Rogues Gallery section without the deliberators’ knowledge or consent. Well, if I have done Ben Summerskill and Clare Balding and the others who helped put the list together a disservice, I am really sorry. I hope it at least teaches them never, ever to trust a newspaper, especially – and this may surprise some – one like the Independent. Good old-fashioned red tops, vulgar, brash and blaring as they may seem, are usually more honourable and straightforward in their dealings than those with pretensions to be “newspapers of record”… Oh dear now I’ve gone and made myself a whole new parcel of enemies. Heigh ho.

S xxx
posted by keever at 10:07 AM on August 9, 2010

What the fuck, Metafilter, where did all this Fry hate suddenly come from?

My Stephen Fry hate has nothing to do with Apple products and everything to do with Making History being the 2nd worst book I've ever read. Also, as a pedantic Wodehouse purist, I thought his portrayal of Jeeves was awful, just much too expressive. He kept making faces.

Actually, I don't hate Stephen Fry - mild dislike plus the feeling that he owes me for the time and money I spent on Making History. Even though it falls apart towards the end, The Liar is hilarious and so was A Bit of Fry and Laurie: Where is the lid?
posted by betweenthebars at 12:19 PM on August 9, 2010

Well, the "Rogue's Gallery" section is credited to Hugh Montgomery (the Arts editor) in the online version. Not wishing to disrespect Fry's sleuthing skills - that may have been added after this brouhaha at the request of the judges, since I didn't see the print version. You can't blame them, if so - the last person Stephen Fry got cross with on the Internet spent a day getting threats and abuse from the numerous hard core of his Twitter followers, until Fry managed to get to an Internet connection (having been incommunicado because flying to the US) and rein them in. You wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that if you could avoid it.

armyofkittens I'd be more surprised by Julie Bindel's inclusion if she hadn't written for the Independent (see also Johann Hari, Phillip Hensher, Patrick Strudwick and Tim Teeman - fine writers all, but a surprising percentage of the most influential gay men and women in the country are or have been employed by the Independent). It's a bit weird that, going by this list, the British Armed Forces are now more committed to the rights of transpeople than the Guardian newspaper, but I guess that's progress of a sort.
posted by DNye at 12:44 PM on August 9, 2010

DNye, the funny thing about that is that Ben Summerskill (head of Stonewall UK, fact fans!) has already been given a thorough slapping by the UK trans community over Julie Bindel, and despite that he hasn't got the message that it might be considered insensitive to include her in this sort of thing (assuming he had any influence at all as a judge, that is).

Wait, did I say "insensitive"? Sorry; I meant "a massive fucking punch in the face".

Stonewall is now known as S'onewall in the locality/by wags/on the internets. It's sad when the community splinters, but they won't stop telling us we shouldn't exist!
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 12:55 PM on August 9, 2010

How did I not realize that Mark Gattis and Russell T Davies were gay?

Surely you're joking, right? How can you have heard of RTD and not know he's gay? He practically introduces himself as Russell I'm Gay T I'm Gay Davies have you heard I'm gay?. Which is sort of why I love him.
posted by crossoverman at 2:34 PM on August 9, 2010

TBH I was a little surprised to hear that Moffat wasn't.
posted by Artw at 2:51 PM on August 9, 2010

Surely you're joking, right? How can you have heard of RTD and not know he's gay?

Um... I live in the US, and my exposure to RTD has been exclusively through interviews re: Torchwood and Doctor Who, the sum total of which might take up an hour of my day if I were to compile them into a single video?
posted by hippybear at 3:10 PM on August 9, 2010

There will come a time, I think, when lists of gay and lesbian persons will be unremarkable.
posted by SPrintF at 6:49 PM on August 9, 2010

TBH I was a little surprised to hear that Moffat wasn't.

Based on...? See, I don't say you can 100% tell if a writer is queer just by watching their television work, but to me it's pretty clear that Russell T Davies is gay from the kind of queer characters that go into his work (often established as queer with one reference and that's that) and that Moffat is straight because he uniformly focuses on the heterosexual relationships in his writing. Which is fine - write what you know!

A side-by-side comparison of their individual Who tenures shows RTD's show littered with gay, lesbian, queer characters and Moffat's first season devoid of them. That said, Captain Jack Harkness first appeared in a Moffat script, but I suspect a major character like him was developed by both writers.
posted by crossoverman at 7:22 PM on August 9, 2010