Xenophobia is UnAmerican

September 11, 2010 10:43 AM

On this day it's good to remember that Muslims are part of the fabric of New York. They live in downtown New York, they worked in the Twin Towers and were affected just like everyone else by the tragedy of 9/11.
posted by brookeb (102 comments total)

The second link is really touching. Those prayer rooms in office complexes and other industrial settings in the West are kind of revered by the Muslims who work there (and non-Muslims who duck in for some actual peace and quiet escape from the maddening push for production). It's worth noting that more Muslims were direct victims of 9/11 than were perpetrators.
posted by Burhanistan at 11:01 AM on September 11, 2010 [23 favorites]

Seconding that - the second link is very good.
posted by Artw at 11:05 AM on September 11, 2010

I loved this story about an NY cabbie who was stabbed for being Muslim. Not that part, just the part about New Yorkers and NY cabbies rallying round and raising $30,000 overnight for him and his family.

It says a lot about the place.
posted by shinybaum at 11:12 AM on September 11, 2010 [4 favorites]

I like this post a lot, for many of the reasons Burhanistan articulated. Thank you for making it, brookb. It's the sort of detail that can shake people out of overly-simplified understandings of 9/11 as event, should they need the reminder.

On a similar note: Alabanza, by Martin Espada.
posted by .kobayashi. at 11:17 AM on September 11, 2010

What is your favorite halal food cart? My favorite is 1st ave and 10th st, southeast corner, not just because of the quality of their food of the selection of ingredients, but because one time I came by and couldn't decide. I was like "Uh, falafel... wait, no, chicken...no, falafel...actually, I think I will have chicken" and the guy is like "ok, combo! chicken and falafel!" and it was awesome.
posted by fuq at 11:28 AM on September 11, 2010 [3 favorites]

That link about the prayer room in the Trade Center is wonderful. The hatred that's been spewed lately towards Muslims from people who've probably never met a single one makes me so mad. The fact that it's allowed to dominate the US news media makes me even more pissed.
posted by octothorpe at 11:32 AM on September 11, 2010 [2 favorites]

After the 2008 election I can't not read that as "Muslins are a part of the fabric of New York"
posted by fermezporte at 11:34 AM on September 11, 2010 [5 favorites]

It's worth noting that more Muslims were direct victims of 9/11 than were perpetrators
yes, after two wars....yes.

they are the "fabric of New York"
is this akin to the "melting pot" theory?

New York is fabric unto itself.
posted by clavdivs at 11:41 AM on September 11, 2010

How long before some neo-con jackass starts saying that she shouldn't be allowed to go to Ground Zero with her kids "because her presence there would offend families of victims of 9/11"?

Then when it was pointed out that SHE is family of a victim of 9/11, either their head would explode or they'd brush it off with a "meh. Whatev."
posted by Golfhaus at 11:43 AM on September 11, 2010

Nice post. Thank you.
The destruction of the towers was terrible, but it needn't make terrible people of us.
posted by SLC Mom at 11:45 AM on September 11, 2010 [6 favorites]

... and that's why we *must* compound one good tragedy with at least three others.

It's the American Way, dammit!
posted by markkraft at 11:57 AM on September 11, 2010

Rachel Maddow Calls Out Newt Gingrich and Co. for Exploiting 9-11
posted by homunculus at 11:58 AM on September 11, 2010 [2 favorites]

The following is for all those who died on 9/11, and in the wars since.

.
posted by Splunge at 12:04 PM on September 11, 2010 [2 favorites]

> yes, after two wars....yes.

Before two wars, even. Over 60 Muslims in the WTC (not the hijackers). There were 19 hijackers, and maybe 10-20 more involved in direct planning or financing who actually knew what was going on. Data is sketchy beyond that, and perhaps many more who affiliated themselves with Al Qaeda were involved in some way, but they couldn't have known the big picture of what they were working on.
posted by Burhanistan at 12:08 PM on September 11, 2010 [2 favorites]

Excellent post, thanks.
posted by Quantum's Deadly Fist at 12:09 PM on September 11, 2010

Against my better judgment I went downtown early today, arriving just ahead of the anti-Park51 rally, and was encouraged to see a sizeable counter-protest at City Hall Park that reaffirmed NYC's ideals of tolerance and cosmopolitanism. (There were also the usual 9/11 Truther enclave and a couple of streetcorner preachers, both downwind of the mounted cop contingent, so their demonstrations are literally in an atmosphere of horseshit.) I think I'll take the Fulton Street subway stop back uptown rather than the Park Place one, however.
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:13 PM on September 11, 2010

"The destruction of the towers was terrible, but it needn't make terrible people of us."

To the extent that it has made some things a matter of public debate, I would argue that it already has made us a terrible people, and will continue to do so until utterly refuted... probably by complete geopolitical failure or foreign domination.

Let me just clarify things...
- We're still debating the merits of torture.

- We're still debating the merits of assassination.

- We're not forcing our states to accept the legal, judicial process of courts and imprisonment for prisoners still facing indefinite detention without trial.

- We're not even debating the right of our government to spy on all our calls and all our emails in any meaningful manner!

Indeed, we're on the verge of letting extreme, irrational, race-baiting neo-fascists led and funded by leaders and financial corporate interests associated with the party that drove our country, morally and financially, over the cliff dictate the outcome of the next election. Why? Because we feel disappointed that the current administration has been so unsuccessful in reversing the damage that has been done... because they've had to compromise with Republicans and Blue Dog Dems to get anything to happen.

It's ultimately not the President's fault. It's not Congress' fault. It's our fault for not making it abundantly clear that the people who were kicked out of office were war criminals, and should be treated as such. They and their supporters needed to be made an example of, not coddled and compromised with.

You don't compromise with lying neo-fascists, you make them social pariahs, and force the Republican Party to disown them or perish.
posted by markkraft at 12:16 PM on September 11, 2010 [41 favorites]

- We're still debating the merits of torture.

Speaking of which: "State Secrets" Trump Justice Again
posted by homunculus at 12:32 PM on September 11, 2010 [2 favorites]

.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:37 PM on September 11, 2010

I'm reading this with loud angry chants of, "No Mosque! No Mosque!" in the background. Some guy just yelled, "kill those fuckers." Oh wait, another guy just announced "God Bless America!" and everybody is all happy again. Oh crap, now some guy just said, "I've been asked why I'm here making this speech, when I don't live here. My answer is, 'I'm fighting in your backyard so I don't have to fight in my backyard!'"

Go fight in your own backyard.
posted by StickyCarpet at 1:12 PM on September 11, 2010 [10 favorites]

Obama's address at the Pentagon today.
posted by Burhanistan at 1:20 PM on September 11, 2010 [2 favorites]

These guys are loony. They just compared the Mosque to a statue of Christ submerged in urine. Now they are chanting, "Obama! Who's side is he on!"

He's ranting about attacks on Freedom, and the chanted response is, "What's Next?" I think they answered their own question, regarding what's next in eroding freedom.
posted by StickyCarpet at 1:32 PM on September 11, 2010

They just compared the Mosque to a statue of Christ submerged in urine.

This is not a coincidence. Piss Christ (the NEA horror story de jour of literally decades ago) does not just crop up across a host of conservative talking points TODAY in relation to this, without it being an orchestrated talking point pushed by the usual suspects. Pathetic.
posted by joe lisboa at 1:34 PM on September 11, 2010 [4 favorites]

Oh crap, now some guy just said, "I've been asked why I'm here making this speech, when I don't live here. My answer is, 'I'm fighting in your backyard so I don't have to fight in my backyard!'"

Get off my fucking lawn!
posted by rtha at 1:34 PM on September 11, 2010 [8 favorites]

We are now engaged in a serious study of 9/11, but maybe in a few years we can take time to vaguely apprehend it: casually, sincerely, appreciate 9/11. Peruse the library and look it up in a dusty book. Until then, I think we should abolish all ambiguous references to nine-eleven. During the official ceremonies, for instance, any shoe-shuffling or gentle throat clearing, even wistful glances to the sky should be restrained and eliminated. While chewing a hamburger thoughtfully, just obliterate meaning. And if you find yourself walking down the street, absentmindedly whistling a tune, lightly skipping a step, stop that.

What I'm talking about is a kind of dwindling fever intertwined throughout everyday inconsequential movements. "Brush your teeth in the morning" or "watch the dog take a shit", these are both good examples. Another example:

"In a quiet room, put on a suit, brush the sleeve gently. Is that 9/11 dander? Straighten the tie and breath gently. Maybe it's not dander, perhaps it's just a polyp of terror-meaning, freshly annihilated." Mistaking one for the other, we can see the movement.

Time groans and a hundred bones rattle. Years and years have gone by and we find ourselves in a world where an increasing number of inconsequential movements become disconnected and rendered independent of "shock and awe". What these movements will eventually become bound to is not clear. For now we are renewed and freshly rendered incontinent. Can we finally buy twinkies and wine coolers free from a Rumsfeldian subtext? Perhaps. But Sarah Palin now hovers over the chip aisle. Freedom when the Franklin mint regurgitates the smoldering pentagon in .999 pure silver? Maybe. But the battles fought in honor of that event are forgotten and the fallen dead lay in unmarked graves.

My dear friends let us pray to God. But also let us take great care that we do not disturb the ashes of meaning, except in the most baldfaced ceremony. Even now the fires are beginning to sputter and go out, but there is still a deep and ready bed of coals for the callous hand to stoke.
posted by kuatto at 1:37 PM on September 11, 2010 [4 favorites]

Perhaps this should stay in my head, but I've got a headache, and thus little patience for this shit: Why have we become such pansies? You can choose any day of the year, and you will certainly find at least one event sometime in the last 200 years where a bunch of people have died in some tragic way. Yet somehow we manage not to focus on those so intently.
posted by wierdo at 1:39 PM on September 11, 2010

“On this day it’s good to remember [GENERIC STATEMENT of MULTIETHNIC NATURE of ALL WESTERN METROPOLISES].” Not quite the same ring to it, is there?

MeFites seem happy to be reminded of what they knew already, that Muslims exist even in the city where unrelated Muslims committed terrorist acts.

Is the original poster trying to make some other point? If so, I would have preferred that point be explicitly made. The floor is open.
posted by joeclark at 1:41 PM on September 11, 2010

Thank you for this post. Thank you.
posted by clavier at 1:41 PM on September 11, 2010

Newt Gingrich is screening his Islamophobic/Armageddon movie today. It took nine years, but 9/11 has now become Muslim Hate Day.
posted by dirigibleman at 1:43 PM on September 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

OK, last update. It sounds like several thousand people out there, the speaker is tearing up plans that were filed for the mosque, and the message is approximately, "If you build it we will tear it down! You don't have the right to be here, because polls show 58 % oppose you!"
posted by StickyCarpet at 1:45 PM on September 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

Data is sketchy beyond that


I dont like to quibble the numbers, if I were to guess, more 60 new knew of 9-11, in some detail.
many, many more knew an attack was coming.
before, i would have said the heck with all that and roll out the B-52s and we will show you the great satan glass parking lot pop-up game.
but i have changed, i think alot of us have changed.
It is always good to remember,not just on 9-11, that all people make up this fabric.

In someways, Burchistan, your post suggests the need to point out the good from the bad.

my point, is that we should already know this.

(back to reality)

"If you build it we will tear it down! You don't have the right to be here, because polls show 58 % oppose you!"

...
posted by clavdivs at 2:19 PM on September 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

I dont like to quibble the numbers, if I were to guess, more 60 new knew of 9-11, in some detail.
many, many more knew an attack was coming.

What the hell does this even mean?
posted by joe lisboa at 2:28 PM on September 11, 2010

Rachel Maddow Calls Out Newt Gingrich and Co. for Exploiting 9-11.

And making money from it!

Right Wing Leaders Plan To Use September 11th Anniversary To Make Money.

Palin-Beck 9/11 Profiteering Event Promotor Says Rally Date Is Just A Coincidence.

posted by ericb at 2:37 PM on September 11, 2010 [2 favorites]

> I dont like to quibble the numbers, if I were to guess, more 60 new knew of 9-11, in some detail.
many, many more knew an attack was coming.

I don't know either way, but the usual MO for those kinds of ops is to keep most of the players in the dark about their piece of the puzzle. This guy gets fake passports here, this other guy drops off a coded note there, another goes and leases a property over there, et cetera. What we know is that the hijackers knew they were going to kill themselves (though maybe not all of them actually knew the scope of the attacks), and that people like KSM, OBL, and a few other top Al Qaeda people were overseeing it. Even terrorists can't keep secrets very well, so as you move down the ladder fewer and fewer people probably had any clue of what was going down.

As for your statement that "many, many more knew", well, people in the DoD, Bush Administration, etc, did have some intel that some terrorists might consider using airliners as missiles, but it's pretty doubtful that any of them knew any specifics.
posted by Burhanistan at 2:45 PM on September 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

9/11 widow: The media duped us

"What did I think about the decision to construct a "mosque" this close to ground zero? I thought it was a no-brainer. Of course it should be built there. I sometimes wonder if those people fighting so passionately against Park51 can fathom the diversity of those who died at ground zero. Do we think no Muslims died in the towers? My husband, Eddie Torres, killed on his second day of work at Cantor Fitzgerald while I was pregnant with our first child, was a dark-skinned Latino, often mistaken for Pakistani, who came here illegally from Colombia. How did "9/11 victim" become sloppy shorthand for "white Christian"? I wish someone would put out a list of all the ethnicities and religions and countries and economic levels of the victims."
posted by netbros at 2:50 PM on September 11, 2010 [23 favorites]

MSNBC is showing "9/11 As It Happened". It's fucking horrifying to see it again. It brings up such terrible memories. I don't know how long we can watch it, but I feel like I should anyway.
posted by Splunge at 3:44 PM on September 11, 2010

Rhetorical question for 9/11:

According to the U.N., approximately one million Iraqis died as a result of a decade of economic sanctions.

According to Johns Hopkins, approximately one million more died during the war.

Current statistics indicate that there are around two million long term Iraqi refugees, primarily Sunni, afraid of returning home to murders, death threats and threats of political retaliation and continued "de-Baathification".

After suffering through the equivalent of perhaps six hundred World Trade Center disasters, would we advise the Iraqis to "Never Forget"? Or would it be far healthier for them to grieve and move forward without anger and recriminations?
posted by markkraft at 3:47 PM on September 11, 2010 [13 favorites]

I won't talk about where I was - the back office of a trading floor in London - as that isn't so much as interesting as where I wasn't.

You see, I was working for Deutsche Bank at the time. I was employed by the Global Risk Management Group, and had an invitation to a conference on the 106th floor of The World Trade Centre. My flights and hotel had been long booked. My friends and family were ready for me to return to Manhattan so they could "start spreading the news".

But our team had blown a deadline and my boss at the time - Ralf! - was both German and to the point: there would be conference in New York when his system wasn't ready. It was as simple as that.

Unfortunately the edict from on high wasn't delivered until late in the weekend, meaning folks back stateside had every reason to believe I was in New York - and on top of the World Trade Centre - that morning.

I distinctly recall the 8AM GMT meeting that day where we discussed our project's status and our deliverable. During that meeting we deferred several points until 1:30PM when our colleagues in New York would join us in a teleconference.

At the 1:30PM GMT meeting - 7:30AM EST we reached our colleagues in the Trade Centre, and walked through the agenda. Sometime shortly before 2PM GMT, 8AM EST the phone line dropped. We called back and briefly heard a tremendous amount of noise and static, nothing intelligible, before the line dropped again. We couldn't raise them after that.

Now regardless of what you might think about The Developed World, these problems with transatlantic telephone connections are fairly commonplace. Not every other call, as happens with teleconferences to this day into Africa (just had one last week and call quality was pretty dreadful) but these problems are not unknown when calling between New York and London.

So when we couldn't raise New York after a few tries I wandered out onto the trading floor to see if the Department Secretary (they can do anything!) could help.

Any trading floor, Deutsche Bank's included, has a large number of television monitors, all tuned to the news channels. If anything happens that can rock the markets traders have to know about, and the monitors help.

Every damn screen on the floor had images of the smoke enshrouded World Trade Centre. Only the first plane had hit and news was sketchy, commentators were saying that "a small aircraft" had hit the Trade Centre and that it was being evacuated.

I went back to the meeting room and reported, but as they'd called another Deutsche Bank office they'd already heard the same news. Many of those in the room, enjoying the meeting's complimentary coffee and French pastries were laughing the event off, saying it was a big tower and small plane, that our colleagues would "soon call us".

I disagreed, citing the 1993 Terrorist attack, and the disruption this small bomb had caused the Trade Centre.

I was convinced we wouldn't hear from our colleagues any more that day, and the folks in the meeting room were still debating the two events when I headed back to my desk to work.

Over the next hour or so the full scale of the tragedy unfolded. For almost two days it was almost impossible to call New York - the lines JUST DIDNT WORK - so many of my friends and family had no idea that I hadn't been there. I did manage to reach a friend who lived in California, and she called a few folks on my behalf in Manhattan, but for several weeks many people thought I had been on the top of the World Trade Centre when it was brought down. Even when I returned to New York in December of 2001 for holiday several people were shocked to see me, thinking I was dead.

So why wasn't I there in the Trade Centre that day?

Well, I like to joke about my hard nosed boss but, truth be told, if I had seriously wanted to go I could have. Deutsche Bank isn't so tightly controlled that I couldn't have gone if I'd really wanted and, after all, as a Vice President I had that latitude. To no small extent I was my own boss. It wouldn't have really been a big deal to have gone.

So why didn't I go to New York, to that conference that day?

The truth is, I just don't know.

But, as you folk realise, I didn't go to that conference. The conference that six of my good friends attended, all of whom died on September 11th, 2001.

You know I get my invitation to that conference out once a year and I look at it, wondering what spared me, why I wasn't there in New York with my friends. On that day I think about my friends, I think about of all those who died that I knew and all those other poor souls who died that I didn't know. I think about their families, their friends and their acquaintances, I try in my small minded way to embrace the views of all of whom were impacted by that tragedy and you know what I've come to believe?

Say Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Mohammad, what ever name you want, regardless of religion, all of us can agree: this entity moves in strange ways.

I still have my invitation to that conference. I get it out one day a year.

And that day is today, September 11th.
posted by Mutant at 4:06 PM on September 11, 2010 [100 favorites]

After suffering through the equivalent of perhaps six hundred World Trade Center disasters, would we advise the Iraqis to "Never Forget"? Or would it be far healthier for them to grieve and move forward without anger and recriminations?

You're starting down the slippery slope towards equating Arab lives with American ones.
posted by Joe Beese at 4:17 PM on September 11, 2010 [4 favorites]

Stay classy, markkraft, Joe Beese, et al.
posted by joe lisboa at 4:27 PM on September 11, 2010

After suffering through the equivalent of perhaps six hundred World Trade Center disasters, would we advise the Iraqis to "Never Forget"? Or would it be far healthier for them to grieve and move forward without anger and recriminations?

Yikes. Never forgetting is not the same as not moving on. It's a pretty important concept for the whole world sometimes. And for the peace value, even when people have to move on, they aren't asked to forget about it.

OTOH I'd quite like for people to stop appropriating the phrase to justify continual hatred, yes.
posted by shinybaum at 4:29 PM on September 11, 2010

Or, at minimum, on topic. You know: Muslim-Americans who lost their lives nine yeaers ago. Grind those axes elsewhere.
posted by joe lisboa at 4:30 PM on September 11, 2010

I think it would be wise to remember that the 9/11 terrorists weren't Muslims in the true sense of the word, just as that jackass in Florida wanting to burn a Quran isn't truly Christian.

Fanatics and extremists have a perverted view of the world and can thus no longer claim adherence to their religion.

People who believe that Osama bin Laden attacked the United States for religious reasons (no matter how much bin Laden claims it was so) are deluding themselves.
posted by bwg at 4:40 PM on September 11, 2010 [18 favorites]

I'd like to say that we get to decide, every day, whether or not this will make terrible people out of us as individuals or as a nation. And though we have to this point made some horrific and reprehensible decisions- some out of fear, some out of an opportunity to capitalize, and some we would never make again- we still get to determine what kind of people we want to be and how we want this to affect us from this day forward and every day afterward.

Simply because we have failed up until this point to be the people we'd like to be and that we are capable of being does not mean we cannot start and should continue on the path we are on as a default, especially in regards to hatred and intolerance. To help us become who we'd like to be, we need to start by highlighting in an even greater way those who have acted and spoken out in ways we admire rather than focusing entirely on those who represent the worst of us and incite further fear and hopelessness.

Maybe this is naive. Maybe it sounds as though I'm ignoring the awful event that have followed this date in history. But I have to believe that we can be better than this- that every day is part of a process and we are not done determine who we are yet. I have to believe it is at least possible.
posted by questionsandanchors at 4:58 PM on September 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

I think it would be wise to remember that the 9/11 terrorists weren't Muslims in the true sense of the word, just as that jackass in Florida wanting to burn a Quran isn't truly Christian.

If I could favorite this a million times right now I would.
posted by marimeko at 5:03 PM on September 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

> I think it would be wise to remember that the 9/11 terrorists weren't Muslims in the true sense of the word, just as that jackass in Florida wanting to burn a Quran isn't truly Christian.


As a Muslim, I disagree with this. Even the most fanatical and misguided Muslims are still Muslims. Same with Christians. A good case can be made for drawing lines and saying that if a person is outside those lines then they're not a true Scotsman, but the fact is that they self-identify as such. For Muslims, making takfir is a pretty serious affair that I wouldn't want to get involved in just because someone has some bad viewpoints.

Now, if you want to say that OBL & co are crappy Muslims, then I'm right there with you. But I'm not for sanitizing usage to only include nice Muslims who follow proper fiqh and aqeedah.
posted by Burhanistan at 5:07 PM on September 11, 2010 [4 favorites]

Burhanistan: "> I think it would be wise to remember that the 9/11 terrorists weren't Muslims in the true sense of the word, just as that jackass in Florida wanting to burn a Quran isn't truly Christian.


As a Muslim, I disagree with this. Even the most fanatical and misguided Muslims are still Muslims. Same with Christians. A good case can be made for drawing lines and saying that if a person is outside those lines then they're not a true Scotsman, but the fact is that they self-identify as such. For Muslims, making takfir is a pretty serious affair that I wouldn't want to get involved in just because someone has some bad viewpoints.

Now, if you want to say that OBL & co are crappy Muslims, then I'm right there with you. But I'm not for sanitizing usage to only include nice Muslims who follow proper fiqh and aqeedah."

That's cool, Burhanistan. It wasn't meant to sanitise as much as it was to point out that what is done in the name of religion is mostly just done for politics or power, or both.

Still, I can't help but feel that if people concentrated on the peaceful aspects of their religions, we would all get along a lot better.
posted by bwg at 5:14 PM on September 11, 2010

Hate kills. People can cloak their hate in whatever terms they wish. Thinking people see through the smoke screen to the hate within. It surely sucks to have whatever you personally believe in used as an excuse for hate and murder. But the hate will show through.

I guess it's just the way of the world, all of the world. Nothing new under the sun.

OTOH it wouldn't hurt to look inside ourselves, to really introspect, to make sure that we aren't using whatever we believe in to mask our own hate. It's safe to point fingers at the other. And I don't want to state the obvious, but check yourself before you check everyone else. I am doing that a lot these days. And I often do not like what I find.

Sorry if this come off as pedantic, I'm going through some changes these days. I'm trying not to fear change. Easier said than done.

Peace to all.
posted by Splunge at 5:17 PM on September 11, 2010

I remember when I was little and all the people who were still furious about the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor and what was said...after all these years I hear the same words about the World Trade center. To me, it means that people are sad, horrified, at a loss, angry and all the things that happen when they feel ambushed and at a loss to understand why.
I also remember reading about Krakatoa exploding and how the radical Muslims there were blaming the French for trying to take their way of life over....that was over a 100 year ago...so maybe time does change things and then maybe it doesn't...what do we do?
posted by justhefaxs at 5:24 PM on September 11, 2010

I find myself wishing that more supporters of Park 51 were blond, blue-eyed folks and not mostly people perceived by the haters as "others." At one of the recent demonstrations, the only photos I saw were of people in traditional Muslim dress and a bunch from the Young Socialists League.

It's a mix, I think--of hoping for more non-Muslim Americans to step forward and to avoid feeding the perceptions that Muslims are all foreigners.

Perhaps I need to adjust my thinking, but when I consider my Pakistani friend-neighbors, I find myself thinking that of the two young women in the house, the modern one, the one being considered for a job with the FBI, and not the more religious one, who spends her time teaching girls at the mosque, as the one most likely to succeed and overcome stereotypes. I know it should not make any difference but name, language and clothing matter in acceptance.
posted by etaoin at 5:31 PM on September 11, 2010

Quib-ble

intr.v. quib·bled, quib·bling, quib·bles
1. To evade the truth or importance of an issue by raising trivial distinctions and objections.

and I left in 'new'.

sure, that summer, many (how many is undeterminable and for this purpose, illrelevant)
knew an attack was coming...most likely an overseas target.
come on Joe.
posted by clavdivs at 5:40 PM on September 11, 2010

come on Joe.

Forgive me for not parsing your indecipherable English. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt so as not to lump you in with the idiotic conspiracy theorists.
posted by joe lisboa at 6:18 PM on September 11, 2010

> Quib-ble

Well, I don't think that many people would term differentiating whether the US government knew specifically that Al Qaeda was going to bring down the WTC and Pentagon with airliners versus just having some vague intel that they would like to use planes as weapons "quibbling". But, I quibble...;)
posted by Burhanistan at 6:19 PM on September 11, 2010

You are being too polite, Burhanistan. I think we are dealing with a bona fide nut.
posted by joe lisboa at 6:20 PM on September 11, 2010

Even the most fanatical and misguided Muslims are still Muslims. Same with Christians

Really?

The aforementioned "Jackass in Florida" bears no resemblance to any Christian I've ever known (I attended a Lutheran church/school for fifteen years while growing up in Chicago). His hatred towards Muslims, for one is a rather blatant lack of adherence to what is a fairly basic principal of Christianity = tolerance. So, no, that guy is not "still actually a Christian", as far as I see it.
posted by marimeko at 6:46 PM on September 11, 2010

That should have read: tolerance of other religions
posted by marimeko at 6:50 PM on September 11, 2010

. X 2996.
posted by rollbiz at 7:15 PM on September 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

Yeah. His "church" rulebook. Next page arrow upper left.
posted by Splunge at 7:16 PM on September 11, 2010

Sorry, upper RIGHT.
posted by Splunge at 7:17 PM on September 11, 2010

> So, no, that guy is not "still actually a Christian", as far as I see it.

Well, we're just debating perceptions then. If a person earnestly self-identifies as something then they pretty much enter in the the whole subset of that something, especially in wispy matters of creed and ideology. Basically, if the box is checked Christian on the form then that's what they are. How they lived is another matter, and perhaps they will be judged one day accordingly.
posted by Burhanistan at 7:40 PM on September 11, 2010 [2 favorites]

Sorry, upper RIGHT

Thanks, figured it out. Truly scary.
posted by marimeko at 7:41 PM on September 11, 2010

Well, we're just debating perceptions then. If a person earnestly self-identifies as something then they pretty much enter in the the whole subset of that something, especially in wispy matters of creed and ideology. Basically, if the box is checked Christian on the form then that's what they are. How they lived is another matter, and perhaps they will be judged one day accordingly.

But, wait a second, Burhanistan, there is no margin for a person being a "fraud" an "impo$ter" or, even, a "johnny come lately" in your statement.
posted by marimeko at 7:46 PM on September 11, 2010

> there is no margin for a person being a "fraud" an "impo$ter" or, even, a "johnny come lately" in your statement.

Note I said "earnestly".
posted by Burhanistan at 7:47 PM on September 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

Terry Jones is earnest about spreading hatred toward a large group of people he clearly knows nothing about. His whole hoopla - his whole sickening deal is to draw attention to himself. To spread hatred. No actual Christian would have anything to do with that.
posted by marimeko at 7:57 PM on September 11, 2010

. No actual Christian would have anything to do with that.

And no actual Scotsman!
posted by joe lisboa at 8:19 PM on September 11, 2010 [2 favorites]

> No actual Christian would have anything to do with that.

Well, in my heart of hearts I think that the last actual Christian died on the cross, or maybe perhaps when the last of the original 12 died. Everyone else since then has been a pale imitation.

I get what you're saying, and that when people who label themselves as something behave in ways that are beneath the ideals that label should represent then they might really not be worthy of that name. But, that's just simply an opinion. In actual discussion it is a classic "no true Scotsman" fallacy, and you can't really build or discuss further on it. It's certainly might be a valid opinion in Jones' case, but it's one that really doesn't work when you're addressing subjects in overview.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:19 PM on September 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

the last actual Christian died on the cross,

- Nietzsche and/or Burhanistan
posted by joe lisboa at 8:21 PM on September 11, 2010

Tomaytos and tohmahtoes, man.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:22 PM on September 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

Love ya, B. No hate intended.
posted by joe lisboa at 8:26 PM on September 11, 2010

Metafilter: how many is illrelevant (sic).
posted by joe lisboa at 8:33 PM on September 11, 2010

None taken!
posted by Burhanistan at 8:35 PM on September 11, 2010

But, that's just simply an opinion. In actual discussion it is a classic "no true Scotsman" fallacy, and you can't really build or discuss further on it. It's certainly might be a valid opinion in Jones' case, but it's one that really doesn't work when you're addressing subjects in overview.

Yes! All just opinions at the end of the day:

As a Muslim, I disagree with this. Even the most fanatical and misguided Muslims are still Muslims. Same with Christians. A good case can be made for drawing lines and saying that if a person is outside those lines then they're not a true Scotsman, but the fact is that they self-identify as such. For Muslims, making takfir is a pretty serious affair that I wouldn't want to get involved in just because someone has some bad viewpoints.

And I was merely offering mine. Actually, I was merely favoriting something someone else said. You know, in the spirit of the fact that all of this lunacy is seriously misguided (opinion).
posted by marimeko at 8:36 PM on September 11, 2010

> You know, in the spirit of the fact that all of this lunacy is seriously misguided (opinion).

Fair enough. I might've come on a bit strong there since it's been drummed into me by my teachers in religious studies that making takfir, or declaring that a Muslim is an apostate, is something to stay far away from. Takfir is basically the bread and butter of Wahabi/Salafi Muslims, of which Osama bin Laden & friends are stalwart adherents. I'm not making any comparisons to them between anyone here, mind you, just claiming my philosophical baggage as it were.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:37 PM on September 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

Obviously the ideal situation would be that everyone accepts that people of different faiths have a right to practise their faith in their neighborhood as they wish. Clearly that's not going to happen in an election year.

So what I would love to see is Park 51 beating the right-wing at their own game. The two block radius around Ground Zero is hallowed ground? Alright then - perhaps they should name the building in memory of one of the many Muslim victims of 9/11. The ____ ____ Memorial Islamic Community Center.

Any further complaints from the right-wing would have to be based on the acknowledgement that they simply don't like Muslims, even Americans that are victims of terrorist attacks. Which is the truth, of course.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:49 PM on September 11, 2010 [5 favorites]

I've explained my experience here and really shouldn't rehash them.

Most of my frustration in the nine years since then has been that it seems like those who have been using the attacks to push agendas... I've got no other way to put this... weren't there. They weren't personally affected. Hell, maybe they were. My geographic proximity does't allow me to rob others of whatever they were feeling that day. But when the people in NY were screaming in opposition to all of the retaliation plans, screaming that, yes, a Mosque should be built there, screaming not to politicize our tragedy, well, it makes me so, so angry when people who weren't there, who didn't live it, choose to do so.

You are free to mourn with us. Hell, you're free to do what you're doing. But I ask you, as a manner of decency, to let us honor our dead without you fucking it up.

For EVERYBODY who died that day, because an asshole with power decided to flex his muscles:

.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:32 PM on September 11, 2010

Burhanistan: "> How they lived is another matter, and perhaps they will be judged one day accordingly."

One can only hope, brother. /Desmond
posted by bwg at 12:09 AM on September 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'm gonna go with the 'no true scotsman' falacity, as regards 'no true christian' or 'no true muslim'. Christians, muslims, etc, have historically done far worse than call for the destruction of some mosque, or fly an airplane into a building, in the name of their religion.
'Salvation'-based religions have a sociopathic component, it's built right into their philosophy. The whole 'this world doesn't matter, the next one does'-shtick is telling you, at least implicitly, that following some fucked up idea of what god wants trumps common sense, decency and empathy.
I'm not saying that all religious people are psychopaths, just that you can't completely separate the ones who are from the rest. There's a continuum.
posted by signal at 7:40 AM on September 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Most of my frustration in the nine years since then has been that it seems like those who have been using the attacks to push agendas... I've got no other way to put this... weren't there. They weren't personally affected. Hell, maybe they were. My geographic proximity does't allow me to rob others of whatever they were feeling that day. But when the people in NY were screaming in opposition to all of the retaliation plans, screaming that, yes, a Mosque should be built there, screaming not to politicize our tragedy, well, it makes me so, so angry when people who weren't there, who didn't live it, choose to do so.

Requoted because all I can think is to point at this and say "what he said."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:49 AM on September 12, 2010

Well, I don't think that many people would term differentiating whether the US government knew specifically that Al Qaeda was going to bring down the WTC and Pentagon with airliners versus just having some vague intel that they would like to use planes as weapons "quibbling". But, I quibble...;)

ok, I'm pissed, some ass is burning the Koran at GZ and your QUIBBLING. In the summer of 2001 alot of people, mostly non-american, were talking of a big operation. I'm not talking u.s. government, this was just word-on-the street.
I take objection with the 60 died but only 19 committed the act...

and Joe why don't you contribute something, you just flap you gums by looking at some of your recent posts...
posted by clavdivs at 10:14 AM on September 12, 2010

> I'm not talking u.s. government, this was just word-on-the street.
I take objection with the 60 died but only 19 committed the act.

Provide some credible citations then. Please also note that I said more than 19 committed the act. It's highly doubtful that many people knew anything specific about the operation beyond a handful. In the end, who cares? Lots of people died then and continue to die who are innocent of war making and political games. Let's at least try to calm down and be clear about all of this.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2010

There's no such thing as Muslims or Christians or anything else. The differences are minor.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:30 PM on September 12, 2010

Funny, I thought it was the teachings of Christ that say "turn the other cheek"

Anyway, I remember where I was, being evacuated in the University of Pittsburgh's Tech Transfer office because they expected the Cathedral of Learning to be a target from the trajectory of the plane that the passengers finally brought down.

And I realized that it was yesterday, 9 years later, that I've finally allowed my green card to conceivably become invalid, we'll see how it goes, but I just don't feel like trying to cross the hurdle of airports and america before the end of this month to make my annual pilgrimage.

I read about what's happening in Murfeesboro TN and it sickens me - i remember walking out through the police lines in London on the 8th of July 2005 and being surprised at the kind treatment by the police, although ethnically I could have been "one of them"...

This has been going on for the whole of the 21st Century and those us who grew up avidly devouring science fiction (or those who wrote it for us) never imagined anything like this outcome for 2010.

Except maybe Heinlein's "If this goes on..."

Palin as the next president? Just read the tone of this Bangalore newspaper article to see how the globe's perception of mighty America has already changed into one suffering major economic and political crises

Where are my transporters and my FTL yachts?...
posted by The Lady is a designer at 1:00 PM on September 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Let's at least try to calm down and be clear about all of this.

Ah, detail specific as in the BIG PLANES operation. there is no way you can verify, so it is nit-picking. But that summer, many people knew that an event would take place, its common knowledge, i got word from my old employer in early 2001 that something was in the works.
just not specific.

i said days after 9-11, on the filter that is was gum-shoe operation, thus by it's nature compartmentalized.

but i will give you cites, fair enough. lets see if i can top your 60 dead with a larger number of who planned it.
posted by clavdivs at 2:05 PM on September 12, 2010

> Ah, detail specific as in the BIG PLANES operation. there is no way you can verify, so it is nit-picking. But that summer, many people knew that an event would take place, its common knowledge, i got word from my old employer in early 2001 that something was in the works.
just not specific.

Yes, we've already covered that. This is precisely what was being discussed if you review the thread. This is tiresome.
posted by Burhanistan at 2:10 PM on September 12, 2010

I think it would be wise to remember that the 9/11 terrorists weren't Muslims in the true sense of the word, just as that jackass in Florida wanting to burn a Quran isn't truly Christian.

This is what I've been wondering. If it was a Waco-style 'Christian' cult that hijacked those planes, and nine years later someone wanted to build a church for regular Christians, would we be hearing about bible burnings? Or is it only Foreign religion that spooks Americans?

the sad thing is it's now happening here - we've had an Islamic presence in the UK for a while, and I grew up in a small town with several mosques. I went to Muslim weddings as a child, I've worked with people who fasted for Ramadan. Yet since 7/7 and the investigations and arrests since, Islam and Muslims have come to mean something sinister in the eyes of many.

It makes me sad when I see people I went to school with joining anti-Islamic Facebook groups. The latest was something like 'Against KFC Going Halal'. It took a few wall posts before it stopped being talked of as an animal welfare issue (pro-tip: if you are for animal welfare, avoid eating fast food, and you might want to avoid all your local takeaways which are pretty much guaranteed to be halal too) and became 'I want to eat ENGLISH meat' and 'They're taking over and making us eat like them' and 'They're dirty bastards who wipe their bum with their hands'.
posted by mippy at 2:33 PM on September 12, 2010

Before two wars, even Over 60 Muslims in the WTC (not the hijackers). There were 19 hijackers, and maybe 10-20 more involved in direct planning or financing who actually knew what was going on. Data is sketchy beyond that, and perhaps many more who affiliated themselves with Al Qaeda were involved in some way, but they couldn't have known the big picture of what they were working on.

oh, we will clear this up.

here are two cites. 'The Lone Gunman', ("There going to crash a plane into TWC" or to that effect) and 'The Coup' (album cover but thats just one co-winky-dink)

in the intel game, from what ive read in novels, do not like co-winky-dinks.

what is tiresome is that statement.....Over 60 muslims died... only 19 highjackers, maybe 10 guys on the ground and 5 back at CAVE HQ...
what your saying is

on 9-11
60 muslims died
and 30-35 muslims planned and carried out the attack...
what are you calculating, kill ratios?....ID SAY ITS A BIT UNBALANCED AT THE MOMENT SIR....how many dead in Iraq, Afghanistan....

you questioned and attempted to correct me.
your back peddling, not me, ask your friend Joe there, he knows a thing or two about philosophy

(I take Steve Martins' view: "If you're studying Geology, which is all facts, as soon as you get out of school you forget it all, but Philosophy you remember just enough to screw you up for the rest of your life.")
posted by clavdivs at 2:46 PM on September 12, 2010

its sunday, its nice out and i wanna read tha papers.

that makes sense to me.
posted by clavdivs at 2:59 PM on September 12, 2010

Terry Jones is earnest about spreading hatred toward a large group of people he clearly knows nothing about. His whole hoopla - his whole sickening deal is to draw attention to himself. To spread hatred. No actual Christian would have anything to do with that.

When I was 9, at the request of a friend I attended a non-denominational Christian summer camp. It was lots of fun until it was discovered that I had attended both Catholic and Jewish services depending on which parent I was with. Then it turned into vacation reeducation camp. This was where I was first introduced to Chick Tracts. Terry Jones reminds me a lot of the Christians I met at that camp.
posted by Tenuki at 5:09 PM on September 12, 2010

here are two cites. 'The Lone Gunman', ("There going to crash a plane into TWC" or to that effect) and 'The Coup' (album cover but thats just one co-winky-dink) in the intel game, from what ive read in novels, do not like co-winky-dinks. what is tiresome is that statement.....Over 60 muslims died... only 19 highjackers, maybe 10 guys on the ground and 5 back at CAVE HQ...
what your saying is on 9-11 60 muslims died and 30-35 muslims planned and carried out the attack... what are you calculating, kill ratios?....ID SAY ITS A BIT UNBALANCED AT THE MOMENT SIR....how many dead in Iraq, Afghanistan....you questioned and attempted to correct me. your back peddling, not me, ask your friend Joe there, he knows a thing or two about philosophy

uh....Claudius? What exactly does this all mean?...
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:17 PM on September 12, 2010

"I think it would be wise to remember that the 9/11 terrorists weren't Muslims in the true sense of the word, just as that jackass in Florida wanting to burn a Quran isn't truly Christian."

Obviously mainstream Christian leaders in the US are far more loving of their neighbors, and wouldn't think of demonizing Islam or implying that there's something wrong with being Islamic... or even being genetically linked -- even if not raised -- by those who might have been Islamic. Certainly, mainstream Christian organizations and their religious leaders wouldn't instigate smear campaigns.

No. That jackass in Florida is very much representative of what you would expect to find in a "Christian" nation, such as the United States. Indeed, you'd expect to find worse... and you would.

Is a Koran-burning pastor *really* not indicative of Christianity, but some sort of aberration? As far as an idealized form of Christianity, as it's not generally practiced in the US, perhaps... but in practical terms, it makes perfect sense, in that the most mainstream preachers are nutty, hate-filled bigots.

Perhaps it's more accurate to say that the US is an aberration, as far as real Christianity is concerned.
posted by markkraft at 12:29 PM on September 13, 2010

I don't like religion. And I usually steer clear of threads like this because of previous problems that I have had in them.

But I think that I can safely say that most religious people are not dangerous. My Orthodox Jewish neighbors have not killed any Palestinian people. The Muslim people that I know from a few blocks over have not killed any Jews. My Christian friends have not burned any Papists, (Catholics) as far as I can tell.

Extremists are certainly a reality. But they are a minority. There are millions of people who believe in a god or gods. And a small percentage of them do evil shit.

Yeah, this is a 180 for me. I still think that belief in a god is silly.

But when you take a leader of a religious group as an example, you can easily compare them to a leader of a political party.

Those that wish to be leaders are not necessarily the same as the people that they attempt to speak for.

Sure the followers may be deluded, but that works for the Tea party as well as the followers of Terry Jones.

I don't like it. And I'll continue to speak out against it. But give the average person a break. They are taught by their parents and their leaders. They may be wrong, but they haven't killed anyone. It's the people who want to make the rules that fuck things up.

Anyone that aspires to a position of power is dangerous.

I guess this is sophomoric philosophy, sorry.
posted by Splunge at 7:56 PM on September 13, 2010

uh....Claudius? What exactly does this all mean?...

whom are you addressing?
claudius or clavdivs.

wow, and you claim to be a writer.
posted by clavdivs at 8:56 AM on September 14, 2010

bunch of marys
posted by clavdivs at 8:56 AM on September 14, 2010

wow, and you claim to be a writer.

....Ah. It's like that, then, is it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:45 PM on September 14, 2010

yes, it, is, so just...i know i will go and parse, some of your, current comments.
posted by clavdivs at 9:59 AM on September 16, 2010

NOT. you wanna back troll (using comments as an insult) go ahead.
it is like
that.
posted by clavdivs at 10:02 AM on September 16, 2010

> NOT. you wanna back troll (using comments as an insult) go ahead.
it is like
that.

You're fairly annoying. And just to clarify, it is not quibbling to distinguish between people having vague intel that Al Qaeda would like to acquire planes and knowing that they were specifically planning attacks on specific targets.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:04 AM on September 16, 2010

yes i am.
that is not the quibbling issue. The issue was 60 killed vs. 30 attackers and planners.

It's worth noting that more Muslims were direct victims of 9/11 than were perpetrators
i do no think it is worthy to compare, IMO...and thats were i have faulted. using opinion.

and i was annoyed at calli-whatever empress.

I withdraw my opinion.
posted by clavdivs at 10:47 AM on September 16, 2010

....All I was doing initially, clavdivs, was asking you what you were trying to say, because the way you phrased things was very, VERY difficult to understand. However, when you chose to insult my intelligence rather than answer, then...I figured you didn't want to talk any more.

I have no idea why that got you annoyed.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:50 PM on September 16, 2010

it was 'co-winky-dink'
was'nt it.
posted by clavdivs at 5:14 PM on September 16, 2010

V>out.

BUT I LOVE TO CHHHAAATTT.
in empty threads
no one treads
the ego
non-eco
FRIENDLLYYYY.

(ethel merman tune blares)
WHATTA
WE GONNA DO ABOUT
THIS SEMANTIC SLAMBACK
NOT GOOD FOR THE HEART
WASTES THE BRAIN
RATHER WATCH TRAINS
CO-LLLIDDDEEEE.

"There's no people like show people
They smile when they are low
Even with a turkey that you know will fold
You may be stranded out in the cold
Still you wouldn't change it for a sack of gold
Let's go on with the show"

and just for you i change my profile picture.
posted by clavdivs at 5:31 PM on September 16, 2010

City puts cost of Quran-burning security at $200,000, sends bill to church.
posted by ericb at 11:10 AM on September 19, 2010