What is the USDA’s definition of organic?

September 20, 2010 6:20 AM

What is the USDA’s definition of organic?
posted by rageagainsttherobots (53 comments total)

I don't know. What's my definition of organic?
posted by sneebler at 6:30 AM on September 20, 2010

What is the US DofEd's definition of accredited?
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 6:34 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

What is best in life?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:38 AM on September 20, 2010 [5 favorites]

Mine is "unsustainable".

Penn & Teller had another name for it.
posted by inturnaround at 6:38 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]

Oh, previous links from me...NSFW. Turn your speakers down.
posted by inturnaround at 6:39 AM on September 20, 2010

Previously
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 6:39 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

What is the USDA’s definition of organic?
posted by rageagainsttherobots

What is best in life?
posted by robocop is bleeding

I'm seeing a trend developing in this thread.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 6:42 AM on September 20, 2010 [4 favorites]

I worked for a natural grocery co-op in Vermont for most of high school and some summers in college. I can tell you that as far as produce goes, organic really just means "dirty."

Yes, there are distinct guidelines (and in terms of the handling within the store, they can be redonkulous - such as, you can't have an organic apple *touch* a conventional apple) - but no, the food quality (unless you're talking about meat & dairy - in which case you're in a whole different ballgame w/r/t hormones and such) isn't terribly different. Just dirtier and more expensive. And yes, I buy organic whenever I can anyway since I feel like organic farming is worthy of support.
posted by sonika at 6:48 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Mine is "unsustainable".

Penn & Teller had another name for it.

Pen and teller don't believe in global warming, so I'm not exactly sure why I should care what they think of Organic food.

Anyway, I don't eat organic food so I don't really care. No matter what they pick, someone will be unhappy.
posted by delmoi at 6:51 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]

Who put the bomp in the bomp-sh'bomp-sh'bomp?
posted by .kobayashi. at 6:53 AM on September 20, 2010

This is more important question to ask, from the same video producer: Why is organic food more expensive?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:59 AM on September 20, 2010

For me this is a pretty poor FPP. There is a lot of material on this topic on the web, here, here and here.
posted by Xurando at 7:00 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

This is going to be another 'perfect is the enemy of good' thread where we throw the baby out with the bathwater, right?
posted by spicynuts at 7:03 AM on September 20, 2010

This is going to be another 'perfect is the enemy of good' thread where we throw the baby out with the bathwater, right?
posted by spicynuts at 10:03 AM on September 20

No. This is going to be another "You should question the messages, words, and symbols that corporate America is sending you in an effort to separate you from your money" thread.
posted by Pastabagel at 7:14 AM on September 20, 2010 [6 favorites]

.kobayashi.: "Who put the bomp in the bomp-sh'bomp-sh'bomp? "

You did.
posted by Reverend John at 7:34 AM on September 20, 2010

Because I should put stock in what a US government agency wants to tell me about food quality?
posted by pompomtom at 7:41 AM on September 20, 2010

Related NPR Intelligence Squared podcast: Is Organic Food Stuffed Full Of Marketing Hype?
posted by NailsTheCat at 7:46 AM on September 20, 2010

Penn just isn't sure about global warming, it's not that he doesn't believe.
posted by Brent Parker at 7:46 AM on September 20, 2010

The earth cultivates itself, observed Fukuoka. There is no need for man to do what roots, worms, and micro-organisms do better. Furthermore, plowing the soil alters the natural environment and promotes the growth of weeds. Therefore, his first principle is: No plowing or turning of the soil.
Organic farming is big business.
posted by gorgor_balabala at 7:47 AM on September 20, 2010

The USDA's definition of organic is as stinking a pile of bullshit as the manure the farms fertilize with.

In my normal life I'll eat pretty much anything, organic or not, genetically modified, pesticide sprayed--whatever. I wash all my food before I eat it anyway and I don't eat any weird over-processed stuff, so I figure any long-term negative effects of from the chemicals are going to hit someone else before they hit me. Most of our supermarket organic food comes from China anyway, and I'd rather just buy something local, insecticide sprayed, and cheap.

But this summer my boyfriend and I bought a CSA share with a local farm, just to see what all the fuss was about. It has been a great experience. We get a ton of (some of the most delicious) veggies (I've ever had) every week, and it has been fun and challenging trying to figure out how to use everything we get, since it's a surprise every week.

However, my wonderful, tiny, fully-using-organic-practices farm had to alert us all in June that they are no longer USDA Certified Organic. Why? Because they finally started to make money as a farm (a whopping $5,000), which means they can no longer say they are USDA Certified without purchasing certification, which they do not have enough money to afford.

For anyone interested, below is the text from the newsletter where they shared the news.

It is with deep, heartfelt disappointment that we announce that we will soon voluntarily and temporarily remove the word "organic" from our logo, website and advertising. We have not abandoned the concepts and rules of organic farming. As a matter of fact, we're taking this action based on the requirements of the organic certification process. Organic farming guidelines specifically outline how, when and where the word "organic" can be used.

A farm may say they are "organic" if they follow standardized organic procedures and
sell less than $5000.00 in products annually. If the farm sells more than $5000.00, the farm must acquire the organic certification or stop using the word "organic". Big Head Farm follows the guidelines of organic growing and has no plans to stop.

We're taking this action because we have exceeded $5000.00 in sales but do not yet have our certification. All the money collected through CSA memberships went directly into farm infrastructure and operations - seeds, compost, fertilizer, fuel, vegetable flats, greenhouse plastic, wood, etc. and the organic certification process costs are not financially feasible at this point. We have committed to acquiring the organic certification at some point in the near future.

Big Head Farm would, again, like to emphasize that we have no intention to abandon our organic beliefs. We are not going to start using any of the herbicides, pesticides or genetically modified seeds (GMO's) we so strongly object to. We will continue grow vegetables, herbs, fruits and flowers with natural, organic methods.
posted by phunniemee at 7:54 AM on September 20, 2010 [5 favorites]

I've always enjoyed this clip from Penn and Teller Bullshit of their organic taste test that they performed on annoying new age hippie types. I'm sure there were people that got it right and it's edited, but it's always nice to see pretentious people get their little minds blown.
posted by windbox at 7:56 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Most of our supermarket organic food comes from China anyway

Citation please.
posted by furtive at 7:59 AM on September 20, 2010 [6 favorites]

The jury is still out as to whether or not organic food is better for the consumer.
The main reason to buy organic is that it's better for the earth.
posted by brevator at 8:00 AM on September 20, 2010 [6 favorites]

Phunniemee, in my experience, this is typical of small farms who follow organic practices. Certification is expensive so they don't bother, but in many cases they stick much closer to the heart of what (most people assume) organic actually means. I can't imagine that the farm my wife and I have a share from would bother getting certified when they (well, really just she) can talk with her customers directly about her principles and practices.

Now, that's not gonna work for supermarket organics, but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax anyway.
posted by that's candlepin at 8:01 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Because I should put stock in what a US government agency wants to tell me about food quality?

Fight Socialized Healthcare Food Inspection!
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:03 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]

I’m just piping in as to why there is a motivation for this (to be honest, I’m not even invested in a particular side, but misinformation bugs me).

I wouldn’t view this as “the government is telling you what to purchase/why to purchase it/etc”. Rather, before 2002, anyone could put the organic label on food and the consumer that wanted and perhaps believed in that particular produce was purchasing ….random food with a random label. This article gives a basic overview as to the “why” behind the new labeling, but probably any news article in 2002 will give you info if you search organic/labeling/certification.

Also, one of the whys as to purchasing organic – for some people, they don’t believe in the way the food is produced and the cost to the environment. To be honest, I don’t think we really know at this point. This was a fascinating article published in science several years ago (sorry only the abstract is available), but it basically stated that there was more biodiversity (insects/small mammals, etc) that lived near fields where organic techniques were practiced.
posted by Wolfster at 8:04 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Citation please.

The fine print on the side of the box that the veggies come stacked in at the store. "Our supermarket organic food" = the organic food at the supermarkets frequented by my boyfriend and I. I can't speak for you. Read your own labels.
posted by phunniemee at 8:04 AM on September 20, 2010

Ugh, ugh, ugh, my boyfriend and ME. Aaack.
posted by phunniemee at 8:05 AM on September 20, 2010

The term "organic" used to be a useful shibboleth to distinguish food quality, but increasingly it has become a commodity term to tap into the wallets of conscientious food buyers. I still have fondness of organic produce and the sustainable methods used but more often these days I look more toward locally produced food.
posted by dgran at 8:05 AM on September 20, 2010

Penn & Teller had another name for it.
posted by inturnaround at 9:38 AM on September 20 [+] [!]

What a bullshit strawman argument. The Hudson Institute??? It's a right wing corporate "think tank". He might as well have interviewed Aaron Eckhart's character from Thank You For Smoking.
posted by any major dude at 8:28 AM on September 20, 2010 [5 favorites]

Unless we're talking about honey or MREs, food that does not quickly rot makes me a little nervous.
posted by adipocere at 8:29 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

I liked Penn and Teller better before they were right wing shills, back when they (or at least Penn) was just kind of an asshole.
posted by klangklangston at 8:52 AM on September 20, 2010 [6 favorites]

Put me down as also one one who also like Penn and Teller before the became big-mouthed blowhard know-it-alls. It's funny how opening one's yap to such huge proportions ruins a discussion and the various attempts at civil discourse. But they jumped on that cultural-shift bandwagon. Classy.
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:07 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

When I worked in the Czech Republic, one of my students told me this joke (which perhaps is indicative of the Czech definition of 'organic')

Q: Why is organic food so expensive?

A: Because the farmers can only spray the crops at night.
posted by FunGus at 9:17 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]

Echoing that this is a pretty bad post. Sustainable Table has a pretty good intro to organic certification, with plenty of links for extra reading.

I tend to take the farmer's word for it. If they say they don't use pesticides and chemical fertilizers, I usually believe them, even if they're not certified. My CSA dropped the USDA certification as well (but I think they are still CCOF certified ...)
posted by mrgrimm at 9:24 AM on September 20, 2010

I've always enjoyed this clip from Penn and Teller Bullshit of their organic taste test that they performed on annoying new age hippie types.

Odd test since organic produce is about how it's grown and not about how it tastes. I grow apples in my backyard which are about as organic as it gets and it's fun to grow apples and all, but I wouldn't go bragging about how they taste.
posted by GuyZero at 9:39 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

The USDA's definition of organic is as stinking a pile of bullshit as the manure the farms fertilize with.

I'm not sure what definition you'd prefer.

The only realistic alternative to the federal or a state government defining what "organic" means is no definition at all, so that any producer of any product can call their products "organic," down to organic GMO corn grown in a tank of synthetic fertilizer, organic meat synthesized from petroleum, and organic fighter-bombers dropping organic, free-range ordnance.

The only thing I can take from it is that you'd prefer that the line at which the government starts requiring certification instead of just taking their word for it should start at some number higher than $5000. What number do you think is the best, and why? Or do you think that the federal government should just trust Monsanto when they promise or even pinky-swear that their $50-million-a-year fields are like totally organic?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:41 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

Unless we're talking about honey or MREs, food that does not quickly rot makes me a little nervous.
posted by adipocere at 11:29 AM on September 20 [+] [!]

Epony-lostmyappetite
posted by exogenous at 9:43 AM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

But they jumped on that cultural-shift bandwagon. Classy.

All the way to the bank.
posted by Fleebnork at 9:59 AM on September 20, 2010

I don't have a problem with non-federal standardization, or even with USDA organic certification. What I do have a problem with (and here I'm gonna sound like a loony libertarian) is regulatory capture, and I believe we've already seen some of that (I think that the USDA standard is looser than the California standard?)

I think it's a bit absurd to say that there's no definition. Granted, who watches the watchmen and all that - how do you verify that a labeling organization isn't in the thralls of Corporate America itself (I mean, look how quickly they jumped on the bandwagon and now I can buy "certified organic veggie brats" from Oscar Mayer or whatever -- of course, under a nice hippie name like "Sunshiney Nature Farms")

Oh well. I'd still rather there be *some* form of standardization than none at all. I still think an independent grassroots consumer-based board would be the best way to approach standardization.
posted by symbioid at 10:05 AM on September 20, 2010

Penn & Teller

Ugh. So their sample size for their "non-organic tastes better" survey is, what, three people, who were likely hand-picked from many more who didn't make the edit and/or didn't make the "wrong" selection? And, like, they're for sure really real people and not, like, paid actors? And just what, exactly, has "tastes better" got to do with the ethical, environmental, and biomedical reasons for buying organic food?

You really need to brush up on your Penn & Teller if you can't spot the obvious misdirection.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:09 AM on September 20, 2010 [4 favorites]

furtive: "Most of our supermarket organic food comes from China anyway

Citation please."

This is kind of a weird one: China used to be a huge exporter until they -- I exaggerate a bit, but just -- drained their aquifers dry (cite) some time in the early 2000s.

Since then they've become a net importer of food staples, but at the same time they've converted a lot of their farmland to organic methods and have a good share of the earth's commercial organic farmland. (cite)

It's not a difficult position to take to suggest that organic staple foods (legumes, grains, rice, peanuts) are Chinese in origin.
posted by boo_radley at 10:23 AM on September 20, 2010

Disagree with their tactics, but do organic foods taste objectively better? Is there a study? I wouldn't be surprised if the taste of the foods vary considerably and that, most of the time, its the freshness that is paramount.
posted by inturnaround at 11:09 AM on September 20, 2010

There have been studies, along the lines of having foodies like respected chefs, taste test organic versus not organic items. Generally organic tends to do better.

But I don't really care . . . I had my days of eating highly salty, highly fatty, highly sugared and highly processed food, and I'm done, thanks. (To be precise, I stopped about half way through reading Fast Food Nation.) These days, I buy in the following order 1) unprocessed 2) local and 2) organic, because that is what tastes best to me and makes me feel healthiest.
posted by bearwife at 11:29 AM on September 20, 2010 [2 favorites]

@brevator:
The main reason to buy organic is that it's better for the earth farm workers.
FTFY
posted by dbmcd at 1:11 PM on September 20, 2010

I amazed at the negative outlook some people are expressing about organic produce. I don't know if it's the association with over-priced food and/or the clientel who are suppossed to be purchasing them, but it seems like a lot of resentment about regulation for what constitutes some very basic food raising practices. We get plenty of chemical exposure throughout our daily lives, so I don't think it's too out of bounds to have a certification that helps me limit my ingestion of them if I can.

As to some small farm operations running into the dollar limit that requires them to pay a fee for organic inspection: I wonder if they could set up several small businesses that run below the dollar amount and then setup up another business that acts as a distributor. It would be more hassle come tax time (maybe too much), but it might be worthwhile to keep the organic seal for each small business until they get big enough to afford the certification.
posted by bionic.junkie at 2:00 PM on September 20, 2010 [1 favorite]

The main reason to buy organic is that it's better for the earth.

But it's easy to disagree with that too. For instance, I'm pretty sure organic farming is less land-efficient than other methods.

Although I think existing farm land being turned into housing tracts is probably a bigger problem than deforestation-for-agriculture, at least in North America.
posted by floam at 2:23 PM on September 20, 2010

Potomac Avenue: This is more important question to ask, from the same video producer: Why is organic food more expensive?

Because it can be. Niche market, supply & demand, snob appeal, etc.

A capitalist tautology.
posted by IAmBroom at 2:45 PM on September 20, 2010

floam: The main reason to buy organic is that it's better for the earth.

But it's easy to disagree with that too. For instance, I'm pretty sure organic farming is less land-efficient than other methods.

You've failed to prove your point. Land-efficiency isn't the biggest problem facing our ecosystem. It's not even in the top 100, IMO.

Again, floam: Although I think existing farm land being turned into housing tracts is probably a bigger problem than deforestation-for-agriculture, at least in North America.

Again, deforestation-for-agriculture is not the biggest problem with mainstream N. Amer. agricultural practices, nor has anyone suggested that it is. Toxic pesticide/herbicide residues contaminating fresh water supplies are a far greater problem. So, you're not really addressing the issues, just providing red herring counter-arguments.
posted by IAmBroom at 2:54 PM on September 20, 2010

IAmBroom, the point you say I missed I made at the end and you quoted it. Like I said, I don't think deforestation due to agriculture is a problem, especially in the US.
posted by floam at 3:55 PM on September 20, 2010

(heck, if anything, less land-efficient agriculture might save some of the land we're ripping up and turning into housing developments)
posted by floam at 3:57 PM on September 20, 2010

Potomac Avenue: OK, my bad. I watched the video you linked to... and everything mentioned is legitimate.

Because it can be. Niche market, supply & demand, snob appeal, etc, but mostly because it costs more, which is why chemical fertilizers, herbacides, & pesticides are the usual route.
posted by IAmBroom at 4:28 PM on September 20, 2010

a way to sound more pretentious than you already are...
posted by MikeF7033 at 10:18 PM on September 20, 2010