Is Thatcher dead yet

October 21, 2010 8:11 AM

Is Thatcher Dead Yet? While politicians plan the ailing ex-PM's state funeral, others less happy with her legacy are planning to celebrate; one party is planned for Trafalgar Square on the Saturday after her death. With the most severe cuts since 1918, any celebration will probably be tinged with foreboding.
posted by acb (51 comments total)

I'm not a fan of Thatcher by any means, but I'm even less a fan of actively celebrating strangers' deaths. What a strange FPP!
posted by mippy at 8:14 AM on October 21, 2010 [1 favorite]

I celebrated when Ronald Reagan died, but only because he did it on my birthday.
posted by theodolite at 8:16 AM on October 21, 2010 [4 favorites]

What have we done? Maggie what have we done? To England?
posted by punkfloyd at 8:17 AM on October 21, 2010 [3 favorites]

So will Zombie Regan attend?
posted by Old'n'Busted at 8:17 AM on October 21, 2010

The news outlets had all been saying that these Gideon Osborne cuts were the worst in 50-odd years. It seems more accurate to say, as Johann Hari does, that they are the worst in almost 100.

I lived in Britain when she was prime minister. It was a very different place under her, but she paved the way for the way all British governments have behaved since. While acknowledging that, I damn her government for Section 28, among other things. And yet, on the other hand, I also think it's unseemly to wish for people's deaths. So I won't.
posted by blucevalo at 8:18 AM on October 21, 2010 [2 favorites]

I'm even less a fan of actively celebrating strangers' deaths.

You only celebrate the deaths of people you know? But Thatcher isn't a stranger to most people in the UK; she forceably and painfully inserted herself into most of our lives.
posted by ninebelow at 8:19 AM on October 21, 2010 [2 favorites]

I love the British attempt at objective journalism in the second link:

As such, it would be certain to prove controversial among the many people who lost their jobs during the "Thatcher revolution" which reintroduced market forces into many fields of activity and for which she has not been forgiven by some.

Gee, I have no idea what the reporter's actual views are here.
posted by John Cohen at 8:19 AM on October 21, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'm not a fan of Thatcher by any means, but I'm even less a fan of actively celebrating strangers' deaths. What a strange FPP!

As somebody else wrote on Twitter: "All those people who don't like #whenthatcherdies because its distasteful to celebrate death, I have one word for you: Gotcha"
posted by acb at 8:20 AM on October 21, 2010 [6 favorites]

I find the idea of planning to celebrate someone's death exceedingly distasteful. I have mixed feelings about Thatcher. Her policies sucked, but powerful women have been few and far between in international politics.
posted by bardophile at 8:20 AM on October 21, 2010

I'm also no fan of celebrating people's deaths, and won't celebrate when Thatcher dies. But the notion of a state funeral (the first for a PM since Churchill!) for someone who did so much damage to the country is deeply offensive, and should be protested. It's a pity that the "grave-dancing" celebrations are probably going to mean that this viewpoint gets lost in the noise; it'll be the Thatcherphiles versus the "callous anarchists" or whatever.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 8:21 AM on October 21, 2010 [3 favorites]

I have mixed feelings about celebrating someone's death, but what a horrible, horrible woman. I wouldn't say that I'd absolutely go to that Trafalgar Square party, but I can't say I'd stay away either.

(South Wales is going to be drunk dry when she does go, and rightfully so.)
posted by kalimac at 8:24 AM on October 21, 2010

The state funeral was a New Labour idea; a classic piece of Blairite "triangulation" (moving brazenly to the right because the left have nowhere to go).
posted by acb at 8:24 AM on October 21, 2010

"Because there's one thing I know, I'd like to live long enough to savour, that's when they finally put you in the ground, I'll stand on your grave and tramp the dirt down."
posted by robself at 8:25 AM on October 21, 2010 [5 favorites]

As somebody else wrote on Twitter: "All those people who don't like #whenthatcherdies because its distasteful to celebrate death, I have one word for you: Gotcha"

Shurely that's for Kelvin Mackenzie's death celebrations? (I was born on the day the Falklands conflict began, so forgive me any lack of insight, but wasn't that more about the nastiness of The Sun during the 80s than the Thatcher?)

Thatcher was a cunt, powerful woman or not. But I'm not going to get the jelly and ice-cream out on her last breath. I'll be interested to see what happens, though - the generation that came after mine will have no living memory of her, and she will seem as remote a figure as Enoch Powell and Dame Shirley Porter do to me.
posted by mippy at 8:26 AM on October 21, 2010

As somebody else wrote on Twitter: "All those people who don't like #whenthatcherdies because its distasteful to celebrate death, I have one word for you: Gotcha"

"I will behave no better than the people I despise" is a poor credo.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 8:26 AM on October 21, 2010 [8 favorites]

As such, it would be certain to prove controversial among the many people who lost their jobs during the "Thatcher revolution" which reintroduced market forces into many fields of activity and for which she has not been forgiven by some.

The Thatcher revolution was in the 80's right? It's been a few decades, one would assume that those people found other jobs. And I hate to break it to you, but those jobs would have been anyway. I'd like to see the financial engineering that demonstrates mining or steel in the UK to be more profitable than shipping it from Korea or China.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:27 AM on October 21, 2010

Is this post dead yet?
posted by mazola at 8:28 AM on October 21, 2010

Some pleasures should be relished in private.

Happiness at the death of a contemptible person is one of them.
posted by Joe Beese at 8:30 AM on October 21, 2010 [3 favorites]

And I hate to break it to you, but those jobs would have been [lost] anyway.

Agreed. This is a bit of a red herring. To a significant extent, in macroeconomic terms, Thatcher embraced the inevitable. It is primarily the relish and heartlessness and disregard for ordinary people's welfare with which she did so, and the much greater suffering she caused as a result, along with the associated (albeit less tangible) hardening and added nastiness of British culture, that was her special, unique and avoidable contribution.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 8:31 AM on October 21, 2010 [5 favorites]

(Although American Mefites condemning the idea of celebrating her death better be absolutely certain they wouldn't do the same when Dick Cheney keels over.)
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 8:33 AM on October 21, 2010 [6 favorites]

bardophile: "Her policies sucked, but powerful women have been few and far between in international politics."

That's a strange reason to defend her. Supporting crappy female leaders, simply because they're female, seems like uniquely awful way to encourage quality female leadership (which is what we should be striving towards).

There's a wide gap between "not supporting her" and "celebrating her death", though.
posted by Riki tiki at 8:34 AM on October 21, 2010 [1 favorite]

.
posted by monospace at 8:34 AM on October 21, 2010

I think it's perfectly fine to celebrate the death of someone who caused great social harm. Why wouldn't one be overjoyed that [insert favorite evil overlord here] is dead? Why wouldn't one celebrate their removal from the sphere of sociopolitical influence?
posted by five fresh fish at 8:36 AM on October 21, 2010 [1 favorite]

No one will really be celebrating the death of Thatcher. You reserve that for your best friends and loved ones. Any celebration that does occur will be about the future, and not the death of a has-been.

OK maybe I'm underestimating the ability of the socialist chattering classes to be reactionary and entirely miss the point just a little bit.
posted by public at 8:37 AM on October 21, 2010

Elvis Costello's "Tramp the Dirt Down" is the angriest, most bitter song I've ever heard. It makes me weep with sympathetic rage every time I hear it, and I'm not even British!

Well I hope I don't die too soon
I pray the lord my soul to save
Oh I'll be a good boy, I'm trying so hard to behave
Because there's one thing I know, I'd like to live
Long enough to savour
That's when they finally put you in the ground
I'll stand on your grave and tramp the dirt down
posted by Pants McCracky at 8:38 AM on October 21, 2010

Speakingbon the abstract, btw. I'm not sure Thatcher qualifies as a great evil overlord.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:38 AM on October 21, 2010

I love the British attempt at objective journalism in the second link:

British newspapers don't really do objective journalism, The Independent was set up as a totally non-partisan newspaper but nobody actually reads it.

But the notion of a state funeral (the first for a PM since Churchill!) for someone who did so much damage to the country is deeply offensive, and should be protested.

Hold on now. Let's not pretend that this is objective truth that's obvious to anyone. A lot of people voted for Thatcher and a lot of people still think she was an excellent PM. I'm not a huge fan myself, but a great many people - certainly in the Southeast - remain big fans and claiming that she is universally reviled is nonsense.
posted by atrazine at 8:40 AM on October 21, 2010 [1 favorite]

claiming that she is universally reviled is nonsense

But I didn't. I claimed she did enormous damage to the country. This is my opinion. I frequently post my opinions in Metafilter threads. If I thought it was wrong I would adopt another opinion instead. (On the state funeral issue, I think the existence of massive and widespread condemnation of what she did should be enough, though — she clearly doesn't have anything like the basic consensus respect that such a national event requires.)
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 8:45 AM on October 21, 2010 [1 favorite]

I would celebrate were she put to death as a mass murderer for the Falklands War. As it is, she's dying at the end of a long life of natural causes, which is perhaps a final injustice.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:47 AM on October 21, 2010 [2 favorites]

British newspapers don't really do objective journalism

Neither do American newspapers, of course. The notion is fundamentally absurd. The difference is that most British papers are upfront about this, instead of disingenuous and obfuscatory.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 8:48 AM on October 21, 2010 [3 favorites]

This seems awfully premature. Harry Potter hasn't even destroyed her horcruxes yet.
posted by Zozo at 8:48 AM on October 21, 2010 [7 favorites]

Neither do American newspapers, of course. The notion is fundamentally absurd. The difference is that most British papers are upfront about this, instead of disingenuous and obfuscatory.

Yes, quite right.

Fair enough about the state funeral, and it does seem out of place considering how rare they are for PMs (I missed that in my first read of the FPP).
posted by atrazine at 8:51 AM on October 21, 2010 [1 favorite]

It's been a few decades, one would assume that those people found other jobs.

In the north-east, Scotland and Yorkshire, actually, no. It's a complicated thing, but when an area is wholly reliant on an industry, when that industry is removed it takes decades of recovery. I grew up in East Lancashire - a place that was prosperous in the sixties thanks to the cotton trade, then went into terminal decline - the largest employer now in many towns is the local council and that's now about to end thanks to the recent cuts. With Tories now suggesting the best way to address poverty is for families in the North to move South and for poor London families to move out of London, I see no evidence that Thatcher's party have learned to conflate politics with people.
posted by mippy at 8:52 AM on October 21, 2010 [4 favorites]

Another musical offering in praise of our sainted heroine
posted by criticalbill at 8:52 AM on October 21, 2010

Pope Guilty,

I think you'll find that's not a war she started. Congratulations though, that's probably the only time in your life that you'll find yourself aligned with Ronnie Raygun over foreign policy.
posted by atrazine at 8:53 AM on October 21, 2010

Why wouldn't one be overjoyed that [insert favorite evil overlord here] is dead? Why wouldn't one celebrate their removal from the sphere of sociopolitical influence?

I'm uncomfortable with the way in which 'I disagree with this person's politics' can quickly become 'This person is comparable to Hiter/Pol Pot/Darth Vader' and thus 'Everyone whom I disagree with should die.'
posted by shakespeherian at 8:53 AM on October 21, 2010 [5 favorites]

ther do American newspapers, of course. The notion is fundamentally absurd. The difference is that most British papers are upfront about this, instead of disingenuous and obfuscatory.
Yes. Fox News, for example, is seen as almost pantomime right-wing here. I appreciate not all US newscasters are Glenn Beck, but really. This is why I firmly support the BBC as state ownership at least lends some degree of partiality. The difference in editorial outlook between the BBC and say, Channel 4 News or Sky is pretty clear.
posted by mippy at 8:53 AM on October 21, 2010

I just realised that I got that video from a PeterMcDermott comment earlier today in another thread, so a sort of double
posted by criticalbill at 8:55 AM on October 21, 2010

Elvis Costello's "Tramp the Dirt Down" is the angriest, most bitter song I've ever heard.

He wasn't the only one.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:55 AM on October 21, 2010 [1 favorite]

British newspapers don't really do objective journalism

Neither do American newspapers, of course. The notion is fundamentally absurd. The difference is that most British papers are upfront about this, instead of disingenuous and obfuscatory.

Yeah, but have you seen what passes for a newspaper in Britain? They're almost universally awful. Fox News has nothing on those guys in terms of hyper-partisan yellow journalism bullshit.

There's a big difference between acknowledging your biases up front, and printing a generally bad piece of journalism. If they prefaced their stories with "We support the Tories, and here are our thoughts on the upcoming election..." and then proceeded to write a rigorous and thoughtful analysis of the subject at hand, there would be no issue. Instead, there's this.
posted by schmod at 8:56 AM on October 21, 2010

Is there any doubt she did a great deal of damage to England? Her policies are similar to Reagan's -- she broke the unions and encouraged economic growth in the form of a widening gap between rich and poor. Poverty levels skyrocketed under her watch, and while it is possible to argue that this would have happened anyway, she did precious little to address it, instead approaching government with an admittedly libertarian viewpoint. And if she doesn't get the blame for the increase in poverty, why do we hand her the credit for the bolstered economy that happened under her watch? She also claims credit, as Reagan does, for the fall of the Soviet Union, but if anything it was USSR's decision to have multiparty elections in 1990 that caused the government to weaken, and Thatcher had fuck-all to do with that. And, sure, a big part of it was the economic standstill of the Soviet Union, but much of that was related to the war in Afghanistan. The US armed Afghanistan, yes, but that was a policy begun by Jimmy Carter, and nobody ever credits him for the fall of the Soviet Union.

In the end, I judge politicians by the misery that happened under their watch, and what they did to address it; it's so hard to really nail down the economic good they do, since that's often outside the power of any one politician to fully address. Thatcher comes up especially poorly when you look at who suffered while she made millionaires.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:57 AM on October 21, 2010 [3 favorites]

I always thought this was a comment on Thatcher's Britain. Made, of course, by a group from Merseyside.
posted by mippy at 8:57 AM on October 21, 2010

Aw, c'mon, not all UK newspapers are The Mail and The Sun. That's like saying all US novels are Dan Brown and Twilight.
posted by mippy at 8:58 AM on October 21, 2010 [2 favorites]

Yes. Fox News, for example, is seen as almost pantomime right-wing here.

Mind you, so are The Sun and the Daily Mail. I imagine that, if/when Murdoch gets ownership of the parts of BSkyB he doesn't own, Sky News will take on a similar tabloid tone, becoming a hybrid of Fox News and The Sun.
posted by acb at 8:59 AM on October 21, 2010

Found it and now I find myself checking it every five minutes.     come on, come on...
posted by Webbster at 9:00 AM on October 21, 2010

The saddest thing is the illusion that the death of this demented 80 year old will affect her sphere of sociopolitical influence in any way. Look at the Labour Party. She won a long time ago.
posted by runincircles at 9:00 AM on October 21, 2010 [2 favorites]

She's an enigma, that much is for sure.

On a purely macroeconomic scale she took a country whose economic output was mired by Union strikes, lumbered with inefficiently run public services and with spiralling unemployment and turned it into one of the leaders of the global economy.

Yes, she made some terrifically unpopular decisions, and she took some of Britain's previously-core industries to the wall - specifically the coal and steel working sectors, but there can be no denying that she transformed Britain from a declining industrialized nation into a global financial leader.

The Falklands war was a complete master-stroke of political gamesmanship - had the Argentinians not invaded Port Stanley on the 2nd April 1982, I doubt we'd have gotten a second term from her, let alone a third.

Can anyone imagine what the last 20 years would have been like if Michael Foot had got into office in 1983?
posted by metaxa at 9:01 AM on October 21, 2010 [1 favorite]

really poor taste...
posted by HuronBob at 9:01 AM on October 21, 2010

That's like saying all US novels are Dan Brown and Twilight.

Only about half. The alf that people read.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:01 AM on October 21, 2010

Sarah Palin better hurry up if she wants to get in that photo op
posted by briank at 9:03 AM on October 21, 2010

atrazine: A lot of people voted for Thatcher and a lot of people still think she was an excellent PM. I'm not a huge fan myself, but a great many people - certainly in the Southeast - remain big fans and claiming that she is universally reviled is nonsense.



The best illustration of this - Netflix has the BBC's brilliant 3-part adaptation (2006) of Alan Hollinghurst's award-winning Thatcher years novel, The Line of Beauty.

One of the most gruesomely enjoyable scenes is Thatcher gracing a private diner party, thrown by one of her Tory party toadies.

(I was an angry young leftie just out of university during those years & even I have to admit the BBC has nailed the dizzy worship she inspired in the faithful AND - even worse, probably - the grudging admission from the lukewarm that "even if you hate her, you gotta admit - she gets things done"!)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:06 AM on October 21, 2010