A Building Too Fast?
November 15, 2010 9:55 PM Subscribe
I'm in awe of China, where engineers build 15-storey hotels in six days flat. And where buildings fall over, intact. And where 30-storey buildings burn in hours, killing at least 42.
But wow, if they aren't remarkable. When they're not on fire.
This post was deleted for the following reason: I realize you may not have been going for this exactly, but the framing of this post really does read pretty bad and people seem to really not be okay with that. -- cortex
also when someone says "why are fireworks illegal what's the big deal der der der"
posted by davejay at 10:17 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by davejay at 10:17 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've been waiting all day for a facetious take on this tragedy. Thanks.
posted by Brocktoon at 10:20 PM on November 15, 2010 [18 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 10:20 PM on November 15, 2010 [18 favorites]
Never a good time to be violating building codes:
"The death toll in the east Delhi building collapse on Tuesday mounted to 64 as scores of rescue workers struggled to pull out those trapped in the debris of one of the worst such incidents in the capital, PTI reported."
"At least 80 people were also injured when the 15-year-old building in busy Lalita Park area of Laxmi Nagar, which had an illegal fifth floor under construction, came crashing down around 8.15 pm on Monday."
posted by vidur at 10:24 PM on November 15, 2010
"The death toll in the east Delhi building collapse on Tuesday mounted to 64 as scores of rescue workers struggled to pull out those trapped in the debris of one of the worst such incidents in the capital, PTI reported."
"At least 80 people were also injured when the 15-year-old building in busy Lalita Park area of Laxmi Nagar, which had an illegal fifth floor under construction, came crashing down around 8.15 pm on Monday."
posted by vidur at 10:24 PM on November 15, 2010
there's nothing funny about people being killed in a fire.
posted by facetious at 10:25 PM on November 15, 2010 [12 favorites]
posted by facetious at 10:25 PM on November 15, 2010 [12 favorites]
This post is kind of fucked up. At least 42 people died.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:25 PM on November 15, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by KokuRyu at 10:25 PM on November 15, 2010 [6 favorites]
When I lived in China in the late 90's, I would watch these high rises go up - in incredibly low tech ways. Huge numbers of workers swarming like ants, but together brick and mortar once the steel grids were in place. It was crazy.
I have to say the most dangerous thing about my time there where the buildings I lived in. I saw people store flamable and dangerous goods in the suites around me. One of my colleagues died when his instant gas water heater killed him with a CO2 leak.
These cities are building at a million miles a second. I was told that as Pudong in Shanghai was being built up - something like 40% of the world's construction cranes where in the city. In a city of 16 million - 2 million were migrant construction workers. Safety checks are spotty at best.
posted by helmutdog at 10:25 PM on November 15, 2010
I have to say the most dangerous thing about my time there where the buildings I lived in. I saw people store flamable and dangerous goods in the suites around me. One of my colleagues died when his instant gas water heater killed him with a CO2 leak.
These cities are building at a million miles a second. I was told that as Pudong in Shanghai was being built up - something like 40% of the world's construction cranes where in the city. In a city of 16 million - 2 million were migrant construction workers. Safety checks are spotty at best.
posted by helmutdog at 10:25 PM on November 15, 2010
The tone of this FPP is so...bizarre.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 10:28 PM on November 15, 2010 [8 favorites]
posted by Senor Cardgage at 10:28 PM on November 15, 2010 [8 favorites]
building codes only exist to get your money
In many jurisdictions, that's definitely what they're used for. Obviously, building codes are a good idea, but like most good ideas, they can be overdone. Bureaucrats always want to do more of whatever it is they're doing, even when it goes past the point of usefulness and into the realm of negative returns. When was the last time you saw a bureaucrat arguing to shrink his or her department? Not very damn often, I'll bet, because selfless bureaucrats do not prosper.
It is VERY hard to roll back even the most stupid of regulations. All it takes is a few idiots in charge to really screw something up.
The TSA and the pornoscan come to mind.
A total lack of regulation is, at least in this case, demonstrably not a good idea. But don't use that as evidence that The Way Things Are In The United States is correct. It's a false dichotomy -- you don't have to choose either China or the US systems exactly as they are.
posted by Malor at 10:31 PM on November 15, 2010
In many jurisdictions, that's definitely what they're used for. Obviously, building codes are a good idea, but like most good ideas, they can be overdone. Bureaucrats always want to do more of whatever it is they're doing, even when it goes past the point of usefulness and into the realm of negative returns. When was the last time you saw a bureaucrat arguing to shrink his or her department? Not very damn often, I'll bet, because selfless bureaucrats do not prosper.
It is VERY hard to roll back even the most stupid of regulations. All it takes is a few idiots in charge to really screw something up.
The TSA and the pornoscan come to mind.
A total lack of regulation is, at least in this case, demonstrably not a good idea. But don't use that as evidence that The Way Things Are In The United States is correct. It's a false dichotomy -- you don't have to choose either China or the US systems exactly as they are.
posted by Malor at 10:31 PM on November 15, 2010
where engineers build 15-storey hotels in six days flat.
I like how some engineers and architects claim to have "built" a skyscraper when they have never worked a day in their lives.
posted by mlis at 10:39 PM on November 15, 2010
I like how some engineers and architects claim to have "built" a skyscraper when they have never worked a day in their lives.
posted by mlis at 10:39 PM on November 15, 2010
I've been waiting all day for a facetious take on this tragedy. Thanks.
...
there's nothing funny about people being killed in a fire.
posted by facetious
It was worth the wait.
posted by mazola at 10:43 PM on November 15, 2010 [19 favorites]
...
there's nothing funny about people being killed in a fire.
posted by facetious
It was worth the wait.
posted by mazola at 10:43 PM on November 15, 2010 [19 favorites]
I kinda loved this post. Is there NO room for sarcasm here?
posted by ReeMonster at 11:03 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by ReeMonster at 11:03 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
ReeMonster, sarcasm about mass death is tasteless. We're better than this (or we should be).
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 11:12 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 11:12 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
The tone of this FPP is so...bizarre.
I'd probably put it in a less complimentary way, TBH.
posted by Artw at 11:13 PM on November 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'd probably put it in a less complimentary way, TBH.
posted by Artw at 11:13 PM on November 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
The Chinese government has been financing a huge building boom as part of their process of trying to maintain a 10% per year growth in GDP. This has resulted in entire new cities being built where no one lives or will live, for example. And because of all the government-mandated investment in this by China's banks, China is headed for a real estate-driven financial crisis that's going to make ours look small by contrast.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 11:14 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 11:14 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
So surreal watching the fireworks display in your 'on fire' link, the slow silhouette of the smoke becoming clear between firework bursts as the building catches on fire and the fireworks just... still going. And in the second video, taken from the ground? So much of it is so quiet. I guess it is later on, after it's been burning for a while, but I expected more... noise.
But yeah. The tone of this post? I'm all for gallows humor but I only just learned about this, and seeing these pictures and videos made me feel raw. I'm definitely not so appreciative of it just now.
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 11:23 PM on November 15, 2010
But yeah. The tone of this post? I'm all for gallows humor but I only just learned about this, and seeing these pictures and videos made me feel raw. I'm definitely not so appreciative of it just now.
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 11:23 PM on November 15, 2010
The apartment building is already a ghost in the penultimate part of the Beijing video.
posted by incandenza at 11:39 PM on November 15, 2010
posted by incandenza at 11:39 PM on November 15, 2010
An update on the Tofu Dregs building codes and arrests of those protesting the corrupt construction practices might have given this a little more context.
posted by benzenedream at 11:43 PM on November 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 11:43 PM on November 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
Not quite so simple Chocolate Pickle - the real estate boom is largely funded by private capital (source in Chinese - back in 2001 private capital was already 38% of all investment in fixed assets, and as it says in the text concentrated in real estate and construction due to restrictions in other sectors. It's well over half in the latter two sectors now AFAIK, as opposed to the major infrastructure projects which are state-financed, though public-private deals are emerging). Of course lines do get blurred here, both due to the policy-driven nature of bank lending that you note and the nature of land ownership, so the state is at bare minimum tacitly condoning the continued construction boom. The shoddy buildings thrown up by shady contractors of course don't just kill people after they're finished; plenty of workers die on construction sites with a similarly cavalier approach to safety standards (and often aren't paid for their trouble due to the Byzantine layers of sub-contracting providing opportunities for outright failure to pay the little guy).
posted by Abiezer at 11:48 PM on November 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Abiezer at 11:48 PM on November 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm kinda glad that there are links to beautiful modern Chinese buildings interspersed with links to horrible Chinese building incidents. Together, they show both the intended results of China's great leap forward into modernity & the unintended results that can come with a "develop as fast as possible" mentality.
posted by frodisaur at 11:52 PM on November 15, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by frodisaur at 11:52 PM on November 15, 2010 [7 favorites]
Hm. I should have been more careful with my tone. I meant this post in all seriousness. Reading it again I see how it can be read facetiously or sardonically, but to clarify: I posted to highlight competing aspects of the building boom in China: awe-inspiring structures and awe-inspiring oversights – some of which end tragically.
posted by Galen at 11:58 PM on November 15, 2010
posted by Galen at 11:58 PM on November 15, 2010
great leap forward
You have to understand that the Great Leap Forward had little impact on the economic development side of things in context with modern China at large; all it really managed to do was to strip Mao of his godlike status. What it didn't manage to do was any actual industrialization; in fact, because farmers were now tasked with making extremely crude furnaces that produced brittle, unworkable metals, crops were not sown and millions starved to death.
So yes, it is semantics, but this is the kind of semantics that alludes to an incredibly dark period in Chinese history so to just bandy the term about like it is still applicable seems a little... insensitive?
posted by dubusadus at 12:19 AM on November 16, 2010
You have to understand that the Great Leap Forward had little impact on the economic development side of things in context with modern China at large; all it really managed to do was to strip Mao of his godlike status. What it didn't manage to do was any actual industrialization; in fact, because farmers were now tasked with making extremely crude furnaces that produced brittle, unworkable metals, crops were not sown and millions starved to death.
So yes, it is semantics, but this is the kind of semantics that alludes to an incredibly dark period in Chinese history so to just bandy the term about like it is still applicable seems a little... insensitive?
posted by dubusadus at 12:19 AM on November 16, 2010
If you think the structure of the Ren building interesting, you should check out the Biang Biang one they're building in Shaanxi.
posted by klue at 12:39 AM on November 16, 2010
posted by klue at 12:39 AM on November 16, 2010
i do not think i have seen a building that has fallen still look like a building. soil can be tricky even when something this big is built.
posted by clavdivs at 12:43 AM on November 16, 2010
posted by clavdivs at 12:43 AM on November 16, 2010
Oh man, I was in Shanghai near that district about a month ago..
Then in Beijing, even managed a jog that went around the CCTV building on a surprisingly smogless day. Heard the stories about the fireworks building. When it was finished and fully furnished they wanted to show it off and ended up burning it. It's been gutted, supposedly the structure is still sound, and now after a year of just standing there like a shadow there's finally work being done to rebuild it.
Always surprised by how many-tall-fast the buildings go up, but only barely thought about how easily they go down.
And right now there's construction next door.
posted by wilburthefrog at 12:46 AM on November 16, 2010
Then in Beijing, even managed a jog that went around the CCTV building on a surprisingly smogless day. Heard the stories about the fireworks building. When it was finished and fully furnished they wanted to show it off and ended up burning it. It's been gutted, supposedly the structure is still sound, and now after a year of just standing there like a shadow there's finally work being done to rebuild it.
Always surprised by how many-tall-fast the buildings go up, but only barely thought about how easily they go down.
And right now there's construction next door.
posted by wilburthefrog at 12:46 AM on November 16, 2010
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand now we will link to this whenever someone says "Building codes are annoying because I can't put in a [your addition here] without getting a permit and an inspection, building codes only exist to get your money."
Just point to the difference between earthquakes in Port-au-Prince and Christchurch, which were a similar magnitude, depth, and distance from the city centre. Christchurch is damaged, but still exists. Port-au-Prince was flattened.
(Of course, our right-wing government is busy Malor-ising the building rules to make it "easier to rebuild" which means the next one will look more like Port-au-Prince.)
posted by rodgerd at 12:56 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Just point to the difference between earthquakes in Port-au-Prince and Christchurch, which were a similar magnitude, depth, and distance from the city centre. Christchurch is damaged, but still exists. Port-au-Prince was flattened.
(Of course, our right-wing government is busy Malor-ising the building rules to make it "easier to rebuild" which means the next one will look more like Port-au-Prince.)
posted by rodgerd at 12:56 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
That 15 story building in 2 days is an amazing demonstration of logistics and planning...
posted by DreamerFi at 1:00 AM on November 16, 2010
posted by DreamerFi at 1:00 AM on November 16, 2010
When was the last time you saw a bureaucrat arguing to shrink his or her department?
Dude, when have you seen a bureaucrat arguing anything? They don't make the news that often. Play the ball, not the bureaucrat.
Also, who decides when it's just to get money and just to save lives? Joe Public? Cause that guy's a bit of a dick, and he doesn't know anything about the relevant sectors. Companies that make more money from less regulation? Industry self-regulation has an absolutely abysmal record, and almost every example shows an industry resisting any change or regulation that will come at the expense of profits. In Australia this includes the food and beverage industry code of advertising to children, the same industry's self-regulating approach to packaging and recycling law, etc etc etc.
posted by smoke at 2:29 AM on November 16, 2010
Dude, when have you seen a bureaucrat arguing anything? They don't make the news that often. Play the ball, not the bureaucrat.
Also, who decides when it's just to get money and just to save lives? Joe Public? Cause that guy's a bit of a dick, and he doesn't know anything about the relevant sectors. Companies that make more money from less regulation? Industry self-regulation has an absolutely abysmal record, and almost every example shows an industry resisting any change or regulation that will come at the expense of profits. In Australia this includes the food and beverage industry code of advertising to children, the same industry's self-regulating approach to packaging and recycling law, etc etc etc.
posted by smoke at 2:29 AM on November 16, 2010
What gets me is how most of the comment threads at these links end up as shrieking forums on WTC collapse conspiracy theories. The world really is just about us Americans, isn't it?
On the morning I was born, a cake decorator named Ivy Hodge in East London went to light her stove to make a cup of tea. Instead of enjoying that cup of tea, she was blown across her flat and the pressure wave knocked out a wall, which precipitated a progressive collapse of the entire corner of the 22 story building, killing four (though not Ivy Hodge). In the post mortem, they found joints meant to be filled with concrete were filled with floor sweepings and cigarette butts, and all sorts of other short-cuts, oversights, and mistakes, and had to go on a panicky shoring-up of Ronan Point and many other system-built instant highrises.
The rush to human warehousing always seems to go somewhere bad, like the short-lived Pruitt-Igoe project, which was designed by...the same architect who designed the WTC. OMG conspiracy!!!
Mind you, the fun architecture over there is pretty fun indeed, but I hope they're still building them to be workable, useful, functional buildings, instead of just more Gehry foil wad World's Fair fantasy architecture.
posted by sonascope at 2:57 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
On the morning I was born, a cake decorator named Ivy Hodge in East London went to light her stove to make a cup of tea. Instead of enjoying that cup of tea, she was blown across her flat and the pressure wave knocked out a wall, which precipitated a progressive collapse of the entire corner of the 22 story building, killing four (though not Ivy Hodge). In the post mortem, they found joints meant to be filled with concrete were filled with floor sweepings and cigarette butts, and all sorts of other short-cuts, oversights, and mistakes, and had to go on a panicky shoring-up of Ronan Point and many other system-built instant highrises.
The rush to human warehousing always seems to go somewhere bad, like the short-lived Pruitt-Igoe project, which was designed by...the same architect who designed the WTC. OMG conspiracy!!!
Mind you, the fun architecture over there is pretty fun indeed, but I hope they're still building them to be workable, useful, functional buildings, instead of just more Gehry foil wad World's Fair fantasy architecture.
posted by sonascope at 2:57 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't think the post is necessarily in bad taste. It raises some legitamate questions about the safety of… well, clearly something is being done wrong. But what? Personally (and I'm not an arson expert, so this is just theorizing) I'd put the blame squarely on the scaffolding. If you've ever seen how they do scaffolding in Asia you know what I mean. Often-times it's bamboo. You're got a giant building surrounded by wood. Matchsticks, more like. So if you get a fire anywhere you will very quickly have a fire everywhere. Which is a lot harder to put out when you don't have lots of hydrants on all four corners, which you sure as shit aren't going to have in Asia (with the sole exception of Singapore, maybe).
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:13 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:13 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
My boss is a teabagger (and a supporter of the Minutemen, but that's another story). We all got an email from him last week with the intact-fallen-over building with his spin - "The future of engineering. Scary." I don't want to lose my job, but I wanted to respond, no, that's what happens when there's no codes, no inspections, and no code enforcement - things he complains about all the damn time.
posted by notsnot at 3:58 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by notsnot at 3:58 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I sure hope they don't have the same problems we are with Chinese drywall. Maybe it's only a problem with exported drywall
posted by Redhush at 4:01 AM on November 16, 2010
posted by Redhush at 4:01 AM on November 16, 2010
ABC news basically spent the lion's share of their broadcast last night raving about how ossum the Chinese were, with brief mentions of what was shared above in the links.
Thanks to this thread at least I know that half of what I heard last night was sheer puffery.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:55 AM on November 16, 2010
Thanks to this thread at least I know that half of what I heard last night was sheer puffery.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:55 AM on November 16, 2010
But people can vote with their dollars. The beauty of the system is that everyone is free not to move into a building that will someday collapse.
posted by sourwookie at 5:28 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by sourwookie at 5:28 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Wow, nice post. Looking at the area this was built in Beijing in Google Earth you can see all the development.
posted by ServSci at 5:54 AM on November 16, 2010
posted by ServSci at 5:54 AM on November 16, 2010
But people can vote with their dollars. The beauty of the system is that everyone is free not to move into a building that will someday collapse.
yes in a truly libertarian society in order to be sure the apartment we lease is structurally sound all we would need to do is get a degree in engineering from a reputable university then hire a team to survey that the building is up to a code that measures up to each individual's safety standards.
posted by any major dude at 6:07 AM on November 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
yes in a truly libertarian society in order to be sure the apartment we lease is structurally sound all we would need to do is get a degree in engineering from a reputable university then hire a team to survey that the building is up to a code that measures up to each individual's safety standards.
posted by any major dude at 6:07 AM on November 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
@any major dude: Sorry. I should have used the /hamburger tag. That was supposed to be a wee bit sarcastic-for exactly the reasons you mentioned. ;)
posted by sourwookie at 6:19 AM on November 16, 2010
posted by sourwookie at 6:19 AM on November 16, 2010
That building that fell over intact is... Astounding. Clearly the building itself was pretty solidly built if it didn't get completely destroyed after falling over... Pity the foundation wasn't able to hold it up.
Having been to Shanghai back in 2007, I must say that the new architecture in that city is BEAUTIFUL.
posted by antifuse at 6:33 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Having been to Shanghai back in 2007, I must say that the new architecture in that city is BEAUTIFUL.
posted by antifuse at 6:33 AM on November 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
But people can vote with their dollars. The beauty of the system is that everyone is free not to move into a building that will someday collapse.
Plus you get an extra bonus - low rent housing for poor people!
posted by Popular Ethics at 6:47 AM on November 16, 2010
Plus you get an extra bonus - low rent housing for poor people!
posted by Popular Ethics at 6:47 AM on November 16, 2010
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posted by davejay at 10:16 PM on November 15, 2010 [1 favorite]