I think actual hunger would make anyone's moral objections to eating various edible items go away.I think that's not true. My grandfather grew up in a poor family that often didn't have enough to eat, and they still kept kosher. There are plenty of poor vegetarians and non-beef-eaters in India, and there are plenty of poor Muslims who would go to bed hungry before they'd slaughter and eat a pig. I'm sure that almost everyone would choose to eat forbidden food rather than actually starve, but it's just not true that hunger somehow negates rules about food. And while veganism may or may not be a bourgeois affectation, food restrictions are popular in many parts of the less-developed world.
enn: the original comment said vegetarianism is an affluent choiceI think it's really important to differentiate between vegetarianism and veganism here. It seems really silly to me to suggest that vegetarianism, including ethical vegetarianism, is a privileged choice. In developed countries, it may be a choice that's more common among bourgeois people, but that's not true if you look at the entire world. There are lots of ethical vegetarians in India who are not privileged by global standards. But I do think that it may take a degree of privilege to make a go of being vegan. And as far as I know, she's right that there isn't a culture in the world that practices veganism, as opposed to vegetarianism.
I think that "but poor people in India eat vegetarian" is a really weaselly way to respond to the suggestion that veganism (and to a lesser extent, vegetarianism) are generally affluent choices in the US and Europe. Context matters.And I think the whole "you're just a privileged jerk! Real hunger would cure you of your bourgeois food ethics!" narrative is ignorant, insular, and incorrect. And actually, the rest of your post kind of supports that. If your vegetarian friends are spending the same or a little less on food than you are, then their vegetarianism is not a privileged choice compared to your food choices.
If you're working 7 hours a day because you have two jobs, it's very easy to find the 10 minutes it takes to drive to McDonald's once a day, but significantly harder to find a long block of time to find recipes, make a list, and then go shopping at a store.It's equally easy, though, to get a bean burrito from Taco Bell. I'm not saying that it's healthy, and I'm not saying that it's preferable to a Big Mac, but it's vegetarian. So's Kraft Mac 'n' Cheese and cheese frozen pizzas. There's plenty of vegetarian convenience food, and I don't think it's typically more expensive than the meat kind.
That's true. I'm not trying to argue it is absolutely impossible for someone with very little money and time to eat only vegetarian foods. Instead, I'm just trying to point out that, given the circumstances of many poor people in the US, it's far more important to pay attention to systemic problems rather than personal issues.Well, sure. But I'm not sure how this discussion became merged with the whole "why do poor people eat fast food" discussion. I think they're kind of different. And I guess that I do see vegetarianism as more of a matter of choice than other food issues. I'm not poor, but I don't make a lot of money or have an unlimited food budget, and I could be a vegetarian if I wanted to be. Vegan would be tough, but I think I could go vegetarian with very little extra effort and probably no extra money. I just don't want to.
Forktine: that's all nice and dandy, but how many people can you feed on meat raised in sustainable, humane way? 300 million? If we do everything right, how much is it going to cost? Because people are used to meat and they want it every day, and they want it pretty cheap.This is a strange sort of all-or-nothing proposal, you know? To my eye, the problem is the whole "They want it every day and they want it cheap" part of the equation, not the inherent meatiness of meat. There's a middle ground between level 5 veganism and the bacon explosion, both in terms of ethics and sustainability.
More than anything, it's about physical access to locally raised resources rather than economic class. In large densely populated cities, that's a lot harder and "access" becomes synonymous with "financial resources." The farther away from those areas you get -- the closer you get to the places where some folks actually do raise and slaughter and sell their own meat -- the easier it gets to find humanely raised animals without paying boutique prices.Is that true? Last year I moved from a big city to a small city in the middle of an agricultural area, and I can't say that's been my experience. There may be a blue-collar diner around here that serves humanely-raised meat, but if so I haven't heard of it.
In the meantime it would be smashing if folks stopped pretending these alternatives to factory farming don't exist at allI'm not denying that they exist. I think that for most of us, they'd require just as much lifestyle adjustment as and significantly more expense than going vegetarian, though.
Vote with your wallet & the major retailers will start to improve their game.Ethically raised meat costs more than factory-farmed meat. It always will. Some people have lots of disposable income, so they can switch to more expensive meat without making any substantial cooking or lifestyle changes. But for many of us, that's not true. We can't just blithely decide to increase our food budgets substantially without thinking about where the money is going to come from.
Vegetarian diets that meet energy needs and contain a variety of plant-based protein foods, such as soy products, other legumes, grains, nuts, and seeds, can provide adequate protein without the use of special foods or supplementsposted by davar at 2:07 PM on November 22, 2010
Some of my readers are legitimately insane.posted by melissam at 2:31 PM on November 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
I welcome all of your comments and emails listing in exhaustive detail exactly why I failed at veganism. I’ll even let you tell me I’m stupid, evil, or working for the meat industry. But when you threaten my life or the lives of my family that is crossing the line. When you trot out every misogynistic slur that is used against women to silence them, that is crossing the line. When you make a fake twitter account pretending to be me, that is crossing the line. When you start investigating the family of my web designer, that is crossing the line. When you write nearly a dozen different comments using different names so you can orchestrate an elaborate discussion with yourself in my comments section, that is really weird and it is crossing the line, too. People, my blog is not public property. I do not have any obligation to publish your descriptions of how I deserve to see my entire family killed. No, you do not have a right to do that, and no that is not what your freedom of speech is all about. You are insane AND stupid if you believe that.
And seriously? Vegans threatening violence against me and my family…isn’t that a little too ironic?
"Research indicates that an assortment of plant foods eaten over the course of a day can provide all essential amino acids and ensure adequate nitrogen retention and use in healthy adults; thus, complementary proteins do not need to be consumed at the same meal."posted by davar at 12:13 AM on November 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
verb, melissam: My point is that if ethically raised meat won't scale to the whole population consumed at today's current rates without an enormous hike in prices.Boldface note added by me. That's my point: if everyone eats somewhat less meat, that's a healthy move. If everyone eats less meat but it's better/more sustainable/more ethical meat, that's a doubly good move. You're arguing that only "NO MEAT" will work, and I'm arguing that there is a middle ground between level 5 veganism and a turducken in every pot.
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posted by furiousxgeorge at 7:38 PM on November 19, 2010 [39 favorites]