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Inside Forever 21
January 24, 2011 3:42 PM   Subscribe

I notice a pair of faux-leather lace-up ankle boots that look a lot like the Jeffrey Campbell ones I'm wearing: The style is the same, so are the combination of hooks and holes for the laces and the distinctively shaped heel. Forever 21 sells the boots for $35.80, less than one-quarter the price I paid. I mention them, and Linda says brightly: "You should buy another pair here." An in-depth look at Forever 21 and the family that built the fast-fashion empire.

How close is too close in the world of fashion design? Take a look at some subjects of past lawsuits against Forever 21 and judge for yourself.

via
posted by Thin Lizzy (60 comments total) 13 users marked this as a favorite

 
I have a pair of mens jeans I picked up at the Forever 21 while with my girlfriend.
I liked the finish a lot and at $30 the price was def right.
Whenever I wear them the zipper finds it's way down on it's own.
I have to recheck it every 20 minutes or so.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 3:50 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Just keep telling yourself it's not a knockoff, it's a quote, and this is the way of schmata. Er, fashion.
posted by metameat at 3:53 PM on January 24, 2011


Whenever I wear them the zipper finds it's way down on it's own.

Those pants have plans for you....
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:57 PM on January 24, 2011 [21 favorites]


Won't someone please think of the intellectual property owners!
posted by Joe Beese at 4:06 PM on January 24, 2011


the way of schmata

This could be a religion.
posted by ocherdraco at 4:11 PM on January 24, 2011


Interesting article. I knew it couldn't have been a totally clean process,since they offer stuff so cheaply. But I do enjoy going there. It's fun to sift through all the weird stuff to find the perfect items. I've got a pocketed, knee-length skirt that's navy with white polka dots that I wear all the time from there. You have to be willing to invest a little time, but it's worth it.
posted by Night_owl at 4:19 PM on January 24, 2011


What baffles me is how Forever 21 became an anchor store at my hometown mall. I noticed this when we moved back a couple months ago. For some reason it fills me with melancholy. More so than the mall usually does, I mean.
posted by Neofelis at 4:20 PM on January 24, 2011


Whenever I wear them the zipper finds it's way down on it's own.

I was going to link to a previous thread where someone commented that no one is spelling "its" correctly today and ask if you're doing that on purpose, but the mods appear to have deleted it.
posted by mrnutty at 4:21 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


This could be a religion.

If you've seen the way some people shop in this kind store, it kind of already is.
posted by infinitywaltz at 4:23 PM on January 24, 2011


Newsflash: Michael Cooed sunglasses will break in the same timeframe as the $29 knockoffs. Cheap jeans may wear out a little earlier than their midranged counterparts, but they will probably outlast the fashionista jeans, plus they wont require a second mortgage.

Fashion trends will cyclically repeat - buy your hammer pants now.
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:25 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Dear Business Week reporter,

You pay too much for shoes. DSW, honey.

Yours,
posted by maryr at 4:27 PM on January 24, 2011 [6 favorites]


Actually, Nanuk, harem pants have already come and gone again.
posted by maryr at 4:29 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


The "it's"is a result of an iPad coupled with laziness.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:29 PM on January 24, 2011


Forever 21 is nuts. I'm glad that this article explained their vague business model.

The article didn't mention that f21 makes most of its stuff in S-M-L, thus eliminating a lot of effort in sizing.

Anyway, this made me think twice about shopping there for sure.
posted by k8t at 4:31 PM on January 24, 2011


Esther, who graduated from Cornell University with a degree in fashion and merchandising

I remember that majoring in fashion merchandising was a joke once, made in the very first Legally Blonde movie. Or, at least, I thought it was a joke.

Anyway, I'm glad Forever 21 exists. I'm always feeling depressed about how much fashionable clothes cost. I used to think work clothes were an investment, so I spent tons on money on "work clothes" that increasing look mumsy now while what I spend on non work clothes is so little that for a long time I only wore jeans and a turtleneck sweater as casual clothes. Our career center counseled us to think of buying work clothes as an investment, so I spent an ungodly amount of money suits and skirts that me look like Margaret Thatcher. And I'm expected to dress with more flair at work just to look like I didn't come from a museum.

I wouldn't ever buy a suit at Forever 21, but I'm grateful that they don't make me spend crazy amounts of money on clothes I want to use to experiment with my style.
posted by anniecat at 4:35 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


The Bible quote on the bottom to the bag is creepy-subtle too (John 3:16).
posted by Dr. Twist at 4:36 PM on January 24, 2011


You pay too much for shoes.

It makes me really sad to see my colleague coo over brands like Jimmy Choo and Manolo Blahnik and Louboutins and then get all excited to buy them used for hundreds of dollars off of eBay like she got some big bargain that will pay off some day. I know how much she makes and she's in piles of student loan debt that she is regularly anxious about. But everyone has their vice, I guess.
posted by anniecat at 4:47 PM on January 24, 2011


Neofelis, I had a similar reaction the last time I was at the mall. (Are we in the same town?) It seemed really spooky to me, and for some reason reminded me of ye olde B&I.

I think it's a fluke from the death of one of the midrange mall chains (not Marshall's, but...?) -- I don't know if REI will be taking that spot come spring, though.
posted by epersonae at 4:57 PM on January 24, 2011


I wonder what life would be like if we could all be satisfied with a turtleneck sweater and decent jeans.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:01 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


anniecat: I remember that majoring in fashion merchandising was a joke once, made in the very first Legally Blonde movie. Or, at least, I thought it was a joke.

On the contrary. (Don't feel bad, I only know this because a good friend of mine graduated from there.)
posted by mkultra at 5:01 PM on January 24, 2011


I have a good friend whose family business is manufacturing sunglasses for similar chain retailers. She told me that the designs are almost identical to what Dior, et. al brand with their own logos, prior to applying the requisite 1000% markup. She knows they're nearly identical because they produce both - the hardly-branded and the high-end - in the same factory. Understanding this, she also buys knock-off purses and luggage because despite all the commas in her balance statement, she knows the cheap stuff looks as good and lasts just as long as what they're emulating in the current fashion cycle.

When you're talking about fashion, does workmanship and quality really enter the equation? Hell no. "Winning" at Fashion, as I understand it, is wearing something first and then being imitated. People who buy from Forever 21 aren't trying to set trends, are they?
posted by krippledkonscious at 5:07 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


my most comfortable and most stylish shoes cost four times as much as my second most expensive pair of shoes. they're also well-built. there are some things where spending money on craftsmanship matters. just sayin'.

there is an 80/20 point on price and quality. if you pay for Old Navy merchandise, you lose in the long run because of poor durability. if you pay for high-end designer merchandise, you are paying for good quality, but with a premium for the design. there's a point in between where you find high-quality, durable merchandise for a reasonable but not "cheap" price... i'm guessing that Forever 21 is not that place.
posted by VulcanMike at 5:09 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


if you pay for high-end designer merchandise, you are paying for good quality

If you believe that, I have a $500 Prada bag made in China to sell you. A lot of luxury goods are now made in China or almost entirely made in China then have a little bit of finishing work done in, say, Italy so that a Made in Italy label can be slapped on it. The work done in Italy (whether finishing or, in increasingly rare cases the full production) is done by Asian immigrants anyway. Fewer and fewer luxury goods are actually made by skilled artisans from high quality materials. Here's more coverage.
posted by jedicus at 5:24 PM on January 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


You're correct. Forever 21 is the place where you buy things that will last about as long as Old Navy stuff, at about half Old Navy prices. And when we're talking very distinctive, trendy stuff that will still go out of style before it wears out even when you consider the poor quality of the clothes, it's considered worth it.

Forever 21 has low-quality, "disposable" merchandise for a cheap price.
posted by Night_owl at 5:25 PM on January 24, 2011


VulcanMike: finding that quality "sweet spot" is extremely difficult. I remember buying my first "adult" shoes - $100, but everyone said I would be glad, they would last. I wore through the sole in six months.

Since then, I've had my best luck finding high quality clothes at Goodwill and the Salvation Army store, especially for shoes. It's like they've been pre-selected: a lot of the shoes that survive to being donated are of the good, long-lasting quality I want. They might be a bit worn, but I can get another 2-4 years out of them before needing to replace them. And they cost me $8 (once, only $2).
posted by jb at 5:26 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


I wonder what life would be like if we could all be satisfied with a turtleneck sweater and decent jeans.
I hope to never find out! I hate turtlenecks and they make my rack look terrible.

if you pay for Old Navy merchandise, you lose in the long run because of poor durability
Maybe yes, maybe no. My Old Navy jeans ($29.99) wear as well as ones I've purchased at Lucky ($99.00). I've had Calvin Klein t-shirts wear out faster than ones from Old Navy. And the absolute longest-wearing, indestructible, fade-resistant dress pants I have ever bought, I purchased at Target. Especially in comparison the ones from Nordstrom that looked terrible after two washes.

there's a point in between where you find high-quality, durable merchandise for a reasonable but not "cheap" price
Okay, where?
posted by Squeak Attack at 5:33 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


I wonder what life would be like if we could all be satisfied with a turtleneck sweater and decent jeans.

Everything would be sleekly designed in cut aluminum with an apple logo on it.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 5:57 PM on January 24, 2011 [10 favorites]


I was at a party a year or two ago where a dude was wearing a leather kilt (yes, I know). Despite being a kilt, it it looked like a very nice piece of work, but I had to laugh when I heard a woman at the party say to another, "You know, he could've bought the same thing for a lot less at Forever 21."
posted by octobersurprise at 6:08 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


I am not St. Alia's Steve Jobs wannabe with my turtleneck and decent jeans, but I come close. Forever 21 is a place I find somewhat overwhelming and bewildering to read about. I can't imagine actually going in there after reading that article. One of my principles is to want a little less clothing and only buy when I need something so I know I'll wear it; the way the store turns over merchandise is designed to stimulate the exact opposite kind of buying behavior. I think I'm happier being a fashionless frump than I thought I was.
posted by immlass at 6:17 PM on January 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


I've recently noticed myself drifting towards a sort of low-key "boho-chic" look - which means that clothes shopping has become more a matter of idly picking things up as I see them in vintage stores or "ethnic" markets, or knitting my own pieces.

Distinctive, and some things are much cheaper. And always exactly the way I like them (the cotton sweater I'm making from a vintage pattern is going to be like nothing else in Forever 21, or anywhere else; it'll be exactly the color I want and will be sized exactly to me, and it will have cost only about $25).

Us thrifty folk ain't so dumb.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:39 PM on January 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


I know my Old Navy shirts are not durable, but it's okay. I'll probably want different ones next year, and even on my budget, if I spent $7 on a t-shirt, I feel okay buying a new one next year. I spend a little more on jeans and considerably more on shoes, but I buy shoes for durability. My Docs are approaching their second decade and I'm starting to realize they should get replaced because they've got almost no tread in the middle, now, but aside from that they're quite sound.

Some things are worth buying good. Other things are not. Some things that look "good" are really not, some things that look cheap hold up like crazy. (Especially if you're willing to do minor mending like putting buttons back on and fixing pulled seams.) I think buying things that last is good as far as it goes, but given my history with marinara, a $30 t-shirt is just not going to work for me, and going cheap (not only places like Old Navy but also with serious coupons) means that I get a little more novelty in my life than I otherwise would.
posted by gracedissolved at 7:11 PM on January 24, 2011


gracedissolved - some good independent shoe repair places can resole those Docs for you, as well as do any reconditioning the uppers might require.

See Sam Vimes' Theory of Economic Injustice aka Vimes' Boots Theory.

I know there is a XXIMen's (or whatever - I don't think there's one in my city) but are there any Forever 21-type places for men's clothing (other than, say, for H&M - the closest one is a couple of hours bus ride to the exurbs for me)?
posted by porpoise at 7:28 PM on January 24, 2011


In recent years, I've made an effort to move away from impulse buys marked down to $5 and toward clothes that might cost a little more, but fit better and last longer. My eventual goal is to have a smaller wardrobe full of stuff I love and wear constantly. (The one thing I've noticed is that even if you invest more in clothes and shoes, if you wear them all the time you will wear them out a lot more quickly, and you will spend months searching in vain for a replacement you like as much.)

That, I still shop at Forever 21 from time to time. Their stuff is well-made for the price (H&M's clothes, by contrast, often look and feel like their labels should read "60% cotton by-product, 40% asbestos, made in The Dark" and would be a ripoff at half the price, and don't get me started on Anthropologie) and you can often get something that's interesting without hitting you in the face with trendiness. If you mix it up with higher-quality and more timeless pieces, you can look pretty good and not like you're literally trying to stay 21 forever.

The good thing about Forever 21 is that it's the quickest way to learn what trends to avoid. You walk in and note "buffalo check, exposed zippers, buffalo check, buffalo check, zippers, okay, everyone's going to be wearing buffalo check and zippers this season so I'd better not."

The bad thing about Forever 21 is that, since the store's so huge and the stock changes constantly, once you find something you do like, you have to buy it immediately or you will never find it again. If you leave and come back, expecting to pick up that cardigan later, you will find twelve different cardigans that are almost like it but wrong, but never the one you're looking for.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:33 PM on January 24, 2011 [6 favorites]


I wore through the sole in six months.

Surely, though, if they were adult shoes, you could get them resoled.
posted by kenko at 7:52 PM on January 24, 2011


This sort of thing makes me really glad I'm a man. I can get away with spending $180 on Fluevog boots, knowing that since they're not ultra-trendy, they won't be outrageously out of style when I'm still resoling them 5 years from now.

Though, I guess there are trends in men's fashion, and classic pieces for women. Still, it seems like finding something that's good and repairable is cheaper and classier both in the long run.
posted by explosion at 8:08 PM on January 24, 2011


It's interesting to see people who approach Old Navy and its calibre as being poor quality. I've come from the opposite direction!
posted by rubah at 8:20 PM on January 24, 2011 [3 favorites]


I know someone who tried to produce leather goods outside of China, and found that the Chinese product was way, way better. It appears the original industrialised countries are "forgetting" the skills required to manufacture quality goods, and the Chinese are picking up the slack.
posted by Neale at 10:24 PM on January 24, 2011


epersonae: Ha, we must be because I also have traumatic memories of the B&I.

At the Tacoma Mall I noticed Forever 21 is in the old Nordstrom location; however, Nordstrom is still there, just moved to a different end of the mall for mysterious reasons. I'm curious about how Forever 21 happened to come into possession of that space, since the article mentions they're snapping up great big retail spaces that "real" stores can't afford anymore.
posted by Neofelis at 1:24 AM on January 25, 2011


What baffles me is how Forever 21 became an anchor store at my hometown mall. I noticed this when we moved back a couple months ago. For some reason it fills me with melancholy.

I find the name of the store depressing. 'Come contemplate your mortality and the rapidly fading charms of your youth!'
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:18 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


If you're 42, you can only spend half the time in one before they kick you out...

"Hey, pervert! You ain't 21, geddoutdahere! "
posted by JB71 at 3:56 AM on January 25, 2011


Take a look at some subjects of past lawsuits against Forever 21 and judge for yourself.

No, no. Photos don't do it. Just blindly pick "the real thing" up in your hands, and then pick up the fakey. I am pretty positive you'd be able to tell the difference. Because...

Forever 21 has low-quality, "disposable" merchandise for a cheap price.

Stray threads, thin fabrics, wonky seams, baffling fits.

*twitch*
posted by functionequalsform at 5:38 AM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


rubah: It's interesting to see people who approach Old Navy and its calibre as being poor quality. I've come from the opposite direction

Potato sacks?
posted by mkultra at 5:43 AM on January 25, 2011


kenko: That's what I thought - $100 for a pair of shoes, they should be resoleable. Took them to a shoe repair place, only to have the (rather arrogant man) sniff, pronounce them as "glued" and not-resoleable. (maybe not glued -- I don't know why he said he could do nothing -- just that they were mass manufactured and unresoleable).

Basically, I paid $100 for Walmart-quality shoes.

But that's probably because I'm a woman, and I made a mistake of buying women's shoes. I've noticed this pattern - women's jeans for $40 and thin, ready to wear out, men's jeans for $20 and of much better material. It's bad enough that I've been cross-dressing for years without (much) intention of making a gender statement.

The shoes I've been buying second-hand have been a mixture of men's and women's, and I've found that Clarks are not bad (even in female designs) - about $100 new and they will actually last a few years (I know someone else who gets them). not the decades cited above for Docs -- I should consider them the next time I spend more than $10 on shoes.
posted by jb at 5:51 AM on January 25, 2011


Is Forever 21 like Primark (really cheap clothes - £7 for jeans - very downmarket image, looks like a jumble sale) or more like New Look (cheap - £12-20 for jeans - average teenager type store, looks like a jumble sale but before the doors open)?

I like Anthropologie. If I were a rich socialite with no boobs and no fondness for any coloured food or drink, I would totally shop there.,

Though, I guess there are trends in men's fashion, and classic pieces for women.

Even classic pieces go out of style - think about how double-breasted suits were the thing in the 90s, and will look hideously outdated now. My dad bought a classic suit in the early 1970s - it was upholstery-brown and very polyestery. Bootcut trousers, ten years ago, were seen as something that would always be in, now some see them as dated. Fabrics, cuts and shapes change in subtle but pretty noticeable ways.
posted by mippy at 6:20 AM on January 25, 2011


Sorry, that was a quote:

"Though, I guess there are trends in men's fashion, and classic pieces for women."
posted by mippy at 6:20 AM on January 25, 2011


I like Clarks. I like shoes that are pretty but come in my size and have soles designed for walking rather than those really thin soles that 'fashion shoes' have, which scuff on the walk to the bus-stop.
posted by mippy at 6:22 AM on January 25, 2011


...and don't get me started on Anthropologie

No, please. You go right ahead Metroid Baby!

Anthropologie's boho chic stuff appears so whimsically pretty & gauzy on the racks - but so worn and thin when you try it on. Makes me look like a tramp - but not the right sort!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:15 AM on January 25, 2011


Actually, Nanuk, harem pants have already come and gone again.

Without anyone in real life ever actually ever wearing them.
posted by Jess the Mess at 8:38 AM on January 25, 2011


FYI - Dr Martens can't really be resoled. Yes, the soles aren't always glued, but you cannot get an actual replacement sole for the shoes. I also have 2 pair of Docs that are more than 20 years old.

I had a pair of Gripfasts resoled years ago, and I had to get rid of them the new sole was so terribly uncomfortable. It was sad and a waste.

THAT SAID - You can have Fluevogs resoled with original soles. While me + Fluevog isn't the best combo (I've bought many pair over the years and have found only one to be comfortable on a day to day basis), I will keep trying because they make such a great product.
posted by bibliogrrl at 8:39 AM on January 25, 2011


there's a point in between where you find high-quality, durable merchandise for a reasonable but not "cheap" price...

Yes, do tell. ;) One would think a place along the lines of J.Crew, might be that place. Believe me, it's not. A lot of the time anyway. My last top from them fell apart in the wash - the very first time! Meanwhile, every once in a while, I'll pick up a piece from, say, Target, that will last me forever even though most of their clothes will fall to pieces within a year or two. I don't have any experience for higher end brands since I'm not at all interested in paying for a label, but maybe there are a few that are worth it?

Even my favorite shoe (Born) and handbag (Hobo International) brands have been letting me down recently.
posted by Jess the Mess at 8:50 AM on January 25, 2011


Forever 21 (affectionately referred to as "forevz" by my friends) makes really excellent tights and fishnets and has a lot of decent, cheap basics-- camisoles, sports bras, panties, etc. I also have a plaid shirt from there that looks REALLY good on me. And a nice boy's sweater. And a purple pleated miniskirt. The combination of Forever 21, Buffalo Exchange, and a few local used boutiques have given me a pretty fantastic wardrobe.
posted by NoraReed at 9:04 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


I bought a dress from Forever 21 to wear out on New Years. It was trendy, boxy, and $34. I took it in on the sides to give myself a waist, added some darts around my chest, cut out the hanger ribbons, added some delicate jewelry from my collection and a pair of Nine West open-toed red kitten heels I bought at the Salvation Army for $2.50 and looked divine. I will never wear the dress again.

When I went to prom years ago, I spent $128 to buy a dress from Neimen Marcus. I paid for minor alterations. I bought $20 shoes from Target. I bought a ton of bracelets from Claires. I wore long white gloves because of course I did. I looked divine. I never wore any of it again.

Both of them are sitting in my closet, supporting only the garment bag industry. One day soon, I will donate one of these dresses to a prom dress charity, and the other I will hold on to on the off chance I lose ten pounds and go back to prom, because It Cost A Lot of Money and What If I Need It.

There are some benefits to fast fashion.
posted by jenlovesponies at 9:41 AM on January 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


Actually, Nanuk, harem pants have already come and gone again.

Without anyone in real life ever actually ever wearing them.


Oh, I wish. I saw harem pants several times in the wild last summer. The effect is less MC Hammer and more full diaper. Fashion is kind of dumb sometimes.
posted by Metroid Baby at 11:37 AM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Since then, I've had my best luck finding high quality clothes at Goodwill and the Salvation Army store, especially for shoes. It's like they've been pre-selected: a lot of the shoes that survive to being donated are of the good, long-lasting quality I want. They might be a bit worn, but I can get another 2-4 years out of them before needing to replace them. And they cost me $8 (once, only $2).

It makes my mother cringe, but I only buy (non-vegan) shoes used. I got some very nice black Pierre Cardin loafers that I used as my wedding shoes for $8. I bought an awesome pair of sturdy black Kenneth Coles for $10 that I've had for 7+ years now.

I honestly do not buy any new clothing. (I do get it as gifts, but even there I stress that I prefer used clothing.) I do buy new vegan shoes (very rarely) because I like to promote the practice, but man do they fall apart pretty fast. ;)

Aside from the monstrosity that are disposable baby diapers, disposable clothes have to be one of the major contributors to landfills. There are literally tons and tons of functional clothes that are getting thrown away. No wonder people think overpopulation is a problem; because each one of us wastes as much as 4+ people.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:20 PM on January 25, 2011


This sort of thing makes me really glad I'm a man. I can get away with spending $180 on Fluevog boots, knowing that since they're not ultra-trendy, they won't be outrageously out of style when I'm still resoling them 5 years from now.

I'm a woman and I do exactly that.

Yes, there's more variation in women's trends, but if you chase style rather than trends, women can also invest in good-quality classic pieces and wear them until they fall apart. And look awesome while doing so.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:37 PM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Harem pants happened briefly in the spring and summer of 2010. They are now completely over. Pray God that they do not come back again--I feel like having lived through them twice is enough.

If only people took "Can't Touch This!" as a guide; if you can't touch them, you shouldn't be wearing them.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:39 PM on January 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


Anthropologie's boho chic stuff appears so whimsically pretty & gauzy on the racks - but so worn and thin when you try it on.

And that's why those who are really in the know pick up cheap, sturdy plain t-shirts and figure out make their own.

(Interestingly enough, that second link mentions using a t-shirt from Forever 21 in the first place.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:30 PM on January 25, 2011


EmpressCallipygos,
Thanks for the links.
(The woman in your 2nd link has staggering seamstress skill!)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:14 AM on January 26, 2011


The good thing is that the harem pants hit Europe more heavily than the US. I don't think they remembered MC Hammer as keenly as we do.
posted by maryr at 9:14 PM on January 26, 2011


Potato sacks?
a generation or two removed from those ;D Nah, I'm talking ~Wal*Mart Fashion~
posted by rubah at 6:53 PM on January 27, 2011


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