Todd Beamer; Rest in Peace.
September 16, 2001 12:51 PM Subscribe
My mind reels with what the people on that plane must have felt. I can't begin to imagine the horror. RIP, indeed.
posted by davidmsc at 1:04 PM on September 16, 2001
posted by davidmsc at 1:04 PM on September 16, 2001
Unfortunately, the headline is wrong. They did recover the cockpit voice recorder from it but this wasn't about that. It was from his cell phone.
There's been talk about giving the Medal of Freedom to the passengers on this jet. I think they deserve it.
This is what is sometimes referred to as "dying well."
posted by Steven Den Beste at 1:22 PM on September 16, 2001
There's been talk about giving the Medal of Freedom to the passengers on this jet. I think they deserve it.
This is what is sometimes referred to as "dying well."
posted by Steven Den Beste at 1:22 PM on September 16, 2001
I have seen and read several interviews with the surviving families who received these last phone calls and they are amazingly at peace with what happened. In spite of the devastating loss of their beloved, they seem able to extend the spirit of heroism into their own lives, I think they all deserve Medals of Freedom.
posted by kd at 1:23 PM on September 16, 2001
posted by kd at 1:23 PM on September 16, 2001
Just to add a thought that has been creeping me out lately:
What if the passengers got control of the plane and it was subsequently shot down by the pentagon?
posted by phatboy at 1:26 PM on September 16, 2001
What if the passengers got control of the plane and it was subsequently shot down by the pentagon?
posted by phatboy at 1:26 PM on September 16, 2001
Everyone keeps talking about how this event is going to change the world... most of the arguments I don't buy for a minute.
The one thing that I think *is* going to change -- and I can't decide whether it's for better or for worse -- is how people are going to behave in hostage situations. Before September 11, the rule was stay quiet, keep your head down, and wait for the authorities to handle the negotiations -- no doubt that's what the passengers on the first three planes expected (or at least hoped) was going to happen.
But this time the rules were different -- the passengers on the fourth plane knew for a fact they were going to die, and made the heroic decision to take control of the manner of their deaths. If there's a monument or memorial to be built, let's put it in Pennsylvania, not in New York.
And I'll bet the next time a plane gets hijacked, the passengers are going to be a lot more likely to take action on their own.
Curious to hear comments: is that good, or bad? In this case, it was clearly the right choice. But in a more typical hostage situation it would virtually guarantee violence... thoughts?
posted by ook at 1:27 PM on September 16, 2001
The one thing that I think *is* going to change -- and I can't decide whether it's for better or for worse -- is how people are going to behave in hostage situations. Before September 11, the rule was stay quiet, keep your head down, and wait for the authorities to handle the negotiations -- no doubt that's what the passengers on the first three planes expected (or at least hoped) was going to happen.
But this time the rules were different -- the passengers on the fourth plane knew for a fact they were going to die, and made the heroic decision to take control of the manner of their deaths. If there's a monument or memorial to be built, let's put it in Pennsylvania, not in New York.
And I'll bet the next time a plane gets hijacked, the passengers are going to be a lot more likely to take action on their own.
Curious to hear comments: is that good, or bad? In this case, it was clearly the right choice. But in a more typical hostage situation it would virtually guarantee violence... thoughts?
posted by ook at 1:27 PM on September 16, 2001
Well, previous hijackers usually wanted a safe landing themselves: there was the case of the Afghan plane that landed in London, which was most likely a organised bid for asylum. So the rules have changed for hijackers, as well as passengers.
Heroism doesn't begin to describe the sacrifice made by those passengers.
posted by holgate at 1:36 PM on September 16, 2001
Heroism doesn't begin to describe the sacrifice made by those passengers.
posted by holgate at 1:36 PM on September 16, 2001
I think it's going to affect people's succeptability to the ‘Stockholm Syndrome’, in which the captives empathize with their captors, because of the obviously much more imminent threat that will be felt - I think the hostage crises of the past were about negotiating terms, just as the terrorist attacks of the past were about recognition, but everything has changed. Everything.
posted by kd at 1:37 PM on September 16, 2001
posted by kd at 1:37 PM on September 16, 2001
I guess there's just a certain point in such situations where one's is able to literally stare death in the eyes and do what needs to be done with the time left. It sounds embarassingly cliche, but normal people can obviously do extraordinary things when time is short. This act was one of the more selfless things I've ever heard of.
I'm a borderline Athiest, but it really makes me wonder about the composition of the human soul (assuming it exists).
posted by SuperDuck at 1:37 PM on September 16, 2001
I'm a borderline Athiest, but it really makes me wonder about the composition of the human soul (assuming it exists).
posted by SuperDuck at 1:37 PM on September 16, 2001
CNN aired and interview with an airline pilot last night and he indicated that the old rules are no more.
People, start wearing your seatbelt whenever possible on a plane.
One other hero:
Carol Marin would like to thank the New York City firefighter who saved her life Tuesday.
Only she doesn't know his name.
Marin, a CBS News correspondent, raced out of her 60 Minutes II office as soon as she heard about the attack on the World Trade Center and was about a block away from the scene when one of the buildings collapsed.
''There was a gigantic fireball rolling toward us. We turned and ran, and I fell, and he scooped me up and threw me against a marble wall of a building and covered my body with his. I could feel his heart beating through my backbone. It was like tons of wallboard exploding and burning all around us. I couldn't see. I couldn't breathe,'' said Marin.
The fireman handed her off to a police officer who led her to safety. She didn't see her rescuer again. ''I wish I'd gotten his name.''
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20010912/3622782s.htm
posted by NortonDC at 1:44 PM on September 16, 2001
People, start wearing your seatbelt whenever possible on a plane.
One other hero:
Carol Marin would like to thank the New York City firefighter who saved her life Tuesday.
Only she doesn't know his name.
Marin, a CBS News correspondent, raced out of her 60 Minutes II office as soon as she heard about the attack on the World Trade Center and was about a block away from the scene when one of the buildings collapsed.
''There was a gigantic fireball rolling toward us. We turned and ran, and I fell, and he scooped me up and threw me against a marble wall of a building and covered my body with his. I could feel his heart beating through my backbone. It was like tons of wallboard exploding and burning all around us. I couldn't see. I couldn't breathe,'' said Marin.
The fireman handed her off to a police officer who led her to safety. She didn't see her rescuer again. ''I wish I'd gotten his name.''
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20010912/3622782s.htm
posted by NortonDC at 1:44 PM on September 16, 2001
Can we give up on the conspiracy theory that the plane was shot down, please?
I know I would not have had the presence of mind in the middle of a situation like that to do with those men did. Steven is completely right to say that they died well, along with the rescue personnel in NYC who perished.
posted by briank at 1:47 PM on September 16, 2001
I know I would not have had the presence of mind in the middle of a situation like that to do with those men did. Steven is completely right to say that they died well, along with the rescue personnel in NYC who perished.
posted by briank at 1:47 PM on September 16, 2001
I just hope that the story of this man and other heroes in these attacks are not manufactured by the news media or the government to pull at our heart strings and feel patriotic.
Even though this account may not be the whole truth, I still want to believe it.
posted by Hammerikaner at 2:00 PM on September 16, 2001
Even though this account may not be the whole truth, I still want to believe it.
posted by Hammerikaner at 2:00 PM on September 16, 2001
Can we give up on the conspiracy theory that the plane was shot down, please?
In the absence of another explanation that's backed up with evidence, no. The shoot-down has to be considered one of the possibilities.
posted by rcade at 2:03 PM on September 16, 2001
In the absence of another explanation that's backed up with evidence, no. The shoot-down has to be considered one of the possibilities.
posted by rcade at 2:03 PM on September 16, 2001
Phatboy: if the passengers got control of the plane, wouldn't the first thing they'd do be to get on the radio or celphone and say, hey, we got control of the plane?
And if that did happen, and the military were still suspicious for some reason that it was some kind of sneaky trick on the part of the hijackers, wouldn't they wait until the plane did something suspicious -- like flying towards a building or even a city -- before shooting down a bunch of civilians in the middle of rural PA?
I'm sorry -- I just don't get it.
posted by ook at 2:15 PM on September 16, 2001
And if that did happen, and the military were still suspicious for some reason that it was some kind of sneaky trick on the part of the hijackers, wouldn't they wait until the plane did something suspicious -- like flying towards a building or even a city -- before shooting down a bunch of civilians in the middle of rural PA?
I'm sorry -- I just don't get it.
posted by ook at 2:15 PM on September 16, 2001
The shoot-down has to be considered one of the possibilities.
...Especially since Cheney said on Meet the Press this morning that Bush would have authorized the plane that hit the Pentagon to be shot down if it had been intercepted in time. I would hope, however, that they would have waited a little bit longer, until the absolute last moment possible to prevent disaster. I think they had a little more time before that jet would have reached Camp David or Washington or the like.
posted by thebigpoop at 2:15 PM on September 16, 2001
...Especially since Cheney said on Meet the Press this morning that Bush would have authorized the plane that hit the Pentagon to be shot down if it had been intercepted in time. I would hope, however, that they would have waited a little bit longer, until the absolute last moment possible to prevent disaster. I think they had a little more time before that jet would have reached Camp David or Washington or the like.
posted by thebigpoop at 2:15 PM on September 16, 2001
For the record, the Presidential Medal of Freedom is conferred by the President alone, is considered the nation's highest civilian award (second only to the Congressional Medal of Honor, which is military), and is generally given to individuals with a lifetime of service to the nation, including politics, business, and the arts. I expect these will be awarded "with Distinction", which is the only separate class of the medal.
Congress can also award the Congressional Gold Medal.
phatboy, etc.: I don't think there's any evidence yet that the passengers ever regained control of the plane, indeed, I believe the crash is evidence to the contrary.
posted by dhartung at 2:29 PM on September 16, 2001
Congress can also award the Congressional Gold Medal.
phatboy, etc.: I don't think there's any evidence yet that the passengers ever regained control of the plane, indeed, I believe the crash is evidence to the contrary.
posted by dhartung at 2:29 PM on September 16, 2001
...Especially since Cheney said on Meet the Press this morning that Bush would have authorized the plane that hit the Pentagon to be shot down if it had been intercepted in time.
Absolutely. And, given the length of time between the first attack (8:50 am) and the 4th plane going down (10:20 am), I think it's entirely possible. While it is horrific to consider that something like that might happen, especially given evidence that the passengers themselves might have stopped the hijacking themselves, we shouldn't be ashamed to consider the possibility. It would take an enormous amount of bravery on our leaders' parts to make that decision.
The passengers took initiative, and are heroes no matter what the final outcome. We should speak of their bravery for generations to come. No one can take that away. If it turns out that the plane was shot down, we can all take some solace from the fact that our military wasn't completely helpless to prevent greater loss of life.
posted by jpoulos at 2:45 PM on September 16, 2001
Absolutely. And, given the length of time between the first attack (8:50 am) and the 4th plane going down (10:20 am), I think it's entirely possible. While it is horrific to consider that something like that might happen, especially given evidence that the passengers themselves might have stopped the hijacking themselves, we shouldn't be ashamed to consider the possibility. It would take an enormous amount of bravery on our leaders' parts to make that decision.
The passengers took initiative, and are heroes no matter what the final outcome. We should speak of their bravery for generations to come. No one can take that away. If it turns out that the plane was shot down, we can all take some solace from the fact that our military wasn't completely helpless to prevent greater loss of life.
posted by jpoulos at 2:45 PM on September 16, 2001
Don't overlook this part (emphasis added):
Todd Beamer placed a call on one of the Boeing 757's on-board telephones and spoke for 13 minutes with GTE operator Lisa D. Robinson, Beamer's wife said. He provided detailed information about the hijacking...
I just wonder if the public will get some detailed information soon.
posted by arf at 2:55 PM on September 16, 2001
Todd Beamer placed a call on one of the Boeing 757's on-board telephones and spoke for 13 minutes with GTE operator Lisa D. Robinson, Beamer's wife said. He provided detailed information about the hijacking...
I just wonder if the public will get some detailed information soon.
posted by arf at 2:55 PM on September 16, 2001
If it turns out that the plane was shot down, we can all take some solace from the fact that our military wasn't completely helpless to prevent greater loss of life.
And absolutely none from the fact that they didn't fess up to it.
posted by rushmc at 3:00 PM on September 16, 2001
And absolutely none from the fact that they didn't fess up to it.
posted by rushmc at 3:00 PM on September 16, 2001
It's pointless to speculate about it now. Both "black boxes" from that jet were recovered and appear to be in decent condition. It will take a while to analyze what they say, but the FAA has a lot of experience in that kind of thing. I think we'll get a definitive answer soon. Why don't we just wait and see?
posted by Steven Den Beste at 3:06 PM on September 16, 2001
posted by Steven Den Beste at 3:06 PM on September 16, 2001
Just a comment on the discussion of the plane being shot down. The eye-witnesses in the area of the crash in PA all reported hearing the engines operating normally until the plane actually hit the ground. Not a single eye-witness has made any comments to suggest that there were any other planes in the sky near the site, military or otherwise. If you're going to assert that the plane was shot down, your conspiracy theory is going to have to extend to somehow convincing these witnesses to alter their stories within hours of the plane actually crashing. I, for one, don't think the plane was shot down. That gives the military too much credit.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 3:22 PM on September 16, 2001
posted by monju_bosatsu at 3:22 PM on September 16, 2001
It's also possible that the terrorists actually did have a bomb, and either they exploded it intentionally or it went off during the struggle. There could have been a bomb that wasn't big enough to destroy the plane in midair, but was big enough to cause the plane to crash.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:25 PM on September 16, 2001
posted by kirkaracha at 3:25 PM on September 16, 2001
The eye-witnesses in the area of the crash in PA all reported hearing the engines operating normally until the plane actually hit the ground.
Debris from the plane was found at two locations six miles apart, according to the last press reports I read. That casts doubt on the possibility that the plane was operating normally until it crashed.
posted by rcade at 3:30 PM on September 16, 2001
Debris from the plane was found at two locations six miles apart, according to the last press reports I read. That casts doubt on the possibility that the plane was operating normally until it crashed.
posted by rcade at 3:30 PM on September 16, 2001
It's interesting: If the military shot down the jet, the accomplished exactly the same task as the 'three heroes' but while the heroes would be given medals for it, the military would be ridiculed.
The 'irony' scenario of the passengers taking back the plane and then being shot down shouldn't diminish the merit of the actions of either the military or the passengers. It's just harder to see the good side, that the Capitol or White House is still standing, thanks to peoples brave and incredibly difficult acts.
The CNN timeline of events shows that two fighters out of Langley were already over Washington 3 minutes after the Pentagon hit, and were set up to take out any other planes. The fact that the plane went down in Pennsylvania means that hundreds of lives were saved in what would otherwise have been an uncontrolled crash in a densely populated area.
Note that since it's highly unlikely that the jet was shot down, this is a 'what if' exercise, but hopefully the sentiments are no less valid for being hypothetical.
posted by kfury at 3:34 PM on September 16, 2001
The 'irony' scenario of the passengers taking back the plane and then being shot down shouldn't diminish the merit of the actions of either the military or the passengers. It's just harder to see the good side, that the Capitol or White House is still standing, thanks to peoples brave and incredibly difficult acts.
The CNN timeline of events shows that two fighters out of Langley were already over Washington 3 minutes after the Pentagon hit, and were set up to take out any other planes. The fact that the plane went down in Pennsylvania means that hundreds of lives were saved in what would otherwise have been an uncontrolled crash in a densely populated area.
Note that since it's highly unlikely that the jet was shot down, this is a 'what if' exercise, but hopefully the sentiments are no less valid for being hypothetical.
posted by kfury at 3:34 PM on September 16, 2001
Here's the CNN timeline. I think this is due more to unpreparedness than a conspiracy, but I don't understand why the fighters weren't sent up from Andrews Air Force Base, which is right outside of DC, than from a base that's 130 miles away. If there were fighters at Andrews and they took off at the same time, they would have been over the city before the hijacked plane got there. I'm also very surprised that the Pentagon didn't have any kind of antiaircraft defense.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:41 PM on September 16, 2001
posted by kirkaracha at 3:41 PM on September 16, 2001
kirkaracha -
I'm also very surprised that the Pentagon didn't have any kind of antiaircraft defense.
I've been saying this for days. It's sad but excusable that the World Trade Center, a commerce center in the middle of the civilian world, would be unprotected.
But the seat of National Defense? Amazing.
posted by Sinner at 4:01 PM on September 16, 2001
I'm also very surprised that the Pentagon didn't have any kind of antiaircraft defense.
I've been saying this for days. It's sad but excusable that the World Trade Center, a commerce center in the middle of the civilian world, would be unprotected.
But the seat of National Defense? Amazing.
posted by Sinner at 4:01 PM on September 16, 2001
but while the heroes would be given medals for it, the military would be ridiculed.
By whom??
What skallas said about disclosure.
posted by rushmc at 4:14 PM on September 16, 2001
By whom??
What skallas said about disclosure.
posted by rushmc at 4:14 PM on September 16, 2001
And absolutely none from the fact that they didn't fess up to it.
It's early yet. Maybe Cheney's admission today was thrown out there to gague public opinion?
The eye-witnesses in the area of the crash in PA all reported hearing the engines operating normally until the plane actually hit the ground.
How could anyone know what a plane headed to the ground at hundreds of miles an hour "normally" sounds like?
Not a single eye-witness has made any comments to suggest that there were any other planes in the sky near the site, military or otherwise.
If it was shot down at high altitude, it is unlikely anyone would have noticed.
posted by jpoulos at 5:36 PM on September 16, 2001
It's early yet. Maybe Cheney's admission today was thrown out there to gague public opinion?
The eye-witnesses in the area of the crash in PA all reported hearing the engines operating normally until the plane actually hit the ground.
How could anyone know what a plane headed to the ground at hundreds of miles an hour "normally" sounds like?
Not a single eye-witness has made any comments to suggest that there were any other planes in the sky near the site, military or otherwise.
If it was shot down at high altitude, it is unlikely anyone would have noticed.
posted by jpoulos at 5:36 PM on September 16, 2001
AMRAAM has a range of more than 20 miles. That said, I don't believe that it was shot down.
posted by Steven Den Beste at 6:28 PM on September 16, 2001
posted by Steven Den Beste at 6:28 PM on September 16, 2001
It's early yet. Maybe Cheney's admission today was thrown out there to gague public opinion?
And this makes it okay? "Hmm...not sure if I want to tell the truth or not, so I'll tell a half-truth and see how it flies, then make my decision...."
posted by rushmc at 7:47 PM on September 16, 2001
And this makes it okay? "Hmm...not sure if I want to tell the truth or not, so I'll tell a half-truth and see how it flies, then make my decision...."
posted by rushmc at 7:47 PM on September 16, 2001
And this makes it okay?
I didn't say it was ok. Of course, not. You must admit, however, that announcing "oh yeah, and it was the army that killed those people" may not be the best move in the immediate wake of the attacks.
Whether or not the government would ever make such knowledge public would be directly related to how much the press knew about it. I'm sure they'd be perfectly happy letting everyone believe that hero passengers saved the Capitol.
(Again, I'm speculating.)
posted by jpoulos at 8:11 PM on September 16, 2001
I didn't say it was ok. Of course, not. You must admit, however, that announcing "oh yeah, and it was the army that killed those people" may not be the best move in the immediate wake of the attacks.
Whether or not the government would ever make such knowledge public would be directly related to how much the press knew about it. I'm sure they'd be perfectly happy letting everyone believe that hero passengers saved the Capitol.
(Again, I'm speculating.)
posted by jpoulos at 8:11 PM on September 16, 2001
considering the fact that our country—and possibly many others—is/are teetering on the brink of war, i think we as citizens are on a need to know (or need to know even less than before) basis with information relating to the military and our present situation.
i hate to say it, but now is not the time for full disclosure. such far-flung debris may stink like a big ol' rat, but our government has to maintain a semblance of control and not cause a rash of public panic.
posted by brigita at 8:40 PM on September 16, 2001
i hate to say it, but now is not the time for full disclosure. such far-flung debris may stink like a big ol' rat, but our government has to maintain a semblance of control and not cause a rash of public panic.
posted by brigita at 8:40 PM on September 16, 2001
our government has to maintain a semblance of control and not cause a rash of public panic.
No, what our government has to do is maintain CONTROL, not a semblance. If the public is going to panic, best to do it NOW and get it over with before things really get serious. The government has an obligation to be honest with its citizens. There is a big difference between not publishing mission plans in advance of attack and lying about shooting down a civilian jetliner in Pennsylvania.
posted by rushmc at 9:03 PM on September 18, 2001
No, what our government has to do is maintain CONTROL, not a semblance. If the public is going to panic, best to do it NOW and get it over with before things really get serious. The government has an obligation to be honest with its citizens. There is a big difference between not publishing mission plans in advance of attack and lying about shooting down a civilian jetliner in Pennsylvania.
posted by rushmc at 9:03 PM on September 18, 2001
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posted by owillis at 1:03 PM on September 16, 2001