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Support the children of Holy Cross School, Belfast
November 7, 2001 12:44 PM   Subscribe

Support the children of Holy Cross School, Belfast Do the right thing.
posted by Paul Dunne (43 comments total)

 
What that web page needs is a few dozen more jpgs in the masthead.
posted by TacoConsumer at 12:47 PM on November 7, 2001


The right thing according to whom?
posted by TiggleTaggleTiger at 1:00 PM on November 7, 2001


The parallel with Arkansas 1957 is an interesting way of looking at it.
posted by ColdChef at 1:02 PM on November 7, 2001


Circulate this web address to you friends and neighbours. Don't depend on others
These vulnerable children depend on your support


"Don't depend on others"? I'm getting mixed messages here.
posted by ColdChef at 1:05 PM on November 7, 2001


I understand the urge to resist being told what the right thing to do is, and the site design is, uh, charming, but I would love to hear someone try to justify harassing these kids.
posted by chrismc at 1:27 PM on November 7, 2001


Well I never! There exists on metafilter
at least one user
who isn't a wanker! Hope springs eternal.
posted by Paul Dunne at 1:31 PM on November 7, 2001


I'm not sure how abusing children in any matter can be justified in any way.
posted by jbelshaw at 1:38 PM on November 7, 2001


Give it ten minutes and somebody here will come up with a justification, I'm sure.
posted by briank at 1:42 PM on November 7, 2001


Sometimes they ask for it.
posted by bondcliff at 1:49 PM on November 7, 2001


(seven minutes!)
posted by bondcliff at 1:49 PM on November 7, 2001


At the risk of being referred to as a "wanker" again, let me restate myself more clearly:

I'm not exactly sure how circulating this web address is going to "Save a child." Plus there's this whole passive/aggressive thing going on with the whole "You must do this because other people won't do anything to help" aspect of this.

Again, so that I can understand: What is the point of this website?
posted by ColdChef at 1:56 PM on November 7, 2001


awareness, public pressure, warm fuzzies
posted by Mick at 2:05 PM on November 7, 2001


You don't have to justify harassing the kids to see that this site is extremely one-sided. The behaviour of the protestant blockade is disgusting. On the other hand, if these people were more concerned with protecting their childdren than scoring their own political point, they could use a second, safer, entrance.

Fact is, a depressing amount of Belfast is full of impoverished, poorly educated, bitter, desperate people stuck in a circle of poverty, agression and retaliation, exploited by drug running thugs that hide behind political and religious labels.

More confrontation is not the answer. Websites that portray the troubles with simplistic black and white moralising don't help either. Compromise offers the only, albeit painful, solution - thank god it slowly continues.

This site, and this issue, is, unfortunately, a side issue. Maybe ten, twenty years from now, if peace and development can drag this area out of the economic pits, these people might have better things to worry about, like where they're going for their holidays, or what they can spend their spare cash on. Until then, they are, frankly, fucked (for what it's worth, yes, the responsibility for that lies largely with the British...).

So about the only thing that can help here is trying to keep things as calm as possible in the hope that it doesn't become serious enough to stop the peace process. Pragmatically, that means ignoring that petition. If saying that makes me a cold-hearted abuser of cute little children so be it.
posted by andrew cooke at 2:09 PM on November 7, 2001


Ah, thank God for the English. Always ready to give poor Paddy
a helping hand and explain stuff to him. Let's translate those
first few sentences into American : "Now, I ain't got nuthin'
against niggras, and burnin' 'em sure is wrong, BUT..." Andrew,
stop trying to "explain" Ireland's problems. Stop letting on to
be "the voice of reason". Britain created this mess; you are the
problem, not part of any solution.
posted by Paul Dunne at 2:20 PM on November 7, 2001


"Yeah, they've got an entrance in the back alley they can use - they should just shut up and use it and give up this silly notion of dignity."

The pictures I've been seeing coming from this whole situation have sickened me. Whoever said money was the root of all evil didn't take "religion" into consideration.
posted by tpoh.org at 2:31 PM on November 7, 2001


paul: i noticed you didn't refute a single word he said: you dismissed him for his ethnicity. is that the solution?
posted by moz at 2:44 PM on November 7, 2001


you are the problem, not part of any solution.

Please put aside the name-calling and sarcasm and, again, explain how your post is going to help.
posted by jpoulos at 2:47 PM on November 7, 2001


Paul: God created the mess, Britain was just His agent. Take it to the Romans ... they should have left the lot of us in peace.
posted by walrus at 2:49 PM on November 7, 2001


See what I mean?
posted by andrew cooke at 2:51 PM on November 7, 2001


"If they're going to die they'd better do it, and reduce the surplus population!"
- C. Dickens... And what nationality was he?

Hey, no flames, I'm satirizing Victorian culture by using the explicative style, yet writing about the travesties taking place within... Hey! Stop throwing gruel at me!
posted by j.edwards at 2:54 PM on November 7, 2001


I'm beginning to think that this link and it's subsequent comments bring nothing special to MetaFilter. Just confusion and mud-slinging.
posted by TacoConsumer at 2:54 PM on November 7, 2001


See what I mean?

Sorry for fanning flames ... my comment was bitterly sarcastic. I need valium.
posted by walrus at 2:56 PM on November 7, 2001


FYI, the walls have ears.
posted by jpoulos at 2:58 PM on November 7, 2001


moz, if you think Andrew made "points" which need "refuting", nothing
I can write here is going to help you. Besides, tpoh.org has already
reduced Andrew's "argument" to its essence: "Yeah, they've got an
entrance in the back alley they can use - they should just shut up
and use it and give up this silly notion of dignity."

I didn't dismiss Andrew for his "ethnicity", but for his hypocrisy.
These rapid loyalists are the result of British government policy.
The best a Briton can do is admit, "Christ, we fucked that country
up real bad, we're sorry"; and then have the grace to keep quiet
Unless, that is, he has something really substantive to say --
and no, blaming the victims doesn't cut it.
posted by Paul Dunne at 3:05 PM on November 7, 2001


Paul, I realize that this issue is very important to you, but I don't think that MetaFilter was the best place for your link or your responces.
posted by TacoConsumer at 3:10 PM on November 7, 2001


Paul: I feel very bad about every death in Ireland, and every connected one over here. However, neither I or my family had anything to do with starting the troubles, despite being British. If you keep blaming people so hard, how will you make peace with them?
posted by walrus at 3:17 PM on November 7, 2001


Hang on TacoConsumer - Paul has a place here. I may not agree with him, but censoring him certainly isn't the solution. Why is this discussion any less valid than discussion on the USA and Afghanistan? Or the death penalty? Or...
posted by andrew cooke at 3:21 PM on November 7, 2001


andrew said: "Fact is, a depressing amount of Belfast is full of impoverished, poorly educated, bitter, desperate people stuck in a circle of poverty, agression and retaliation, exploited by drug running thugs that hide behind political and religious labels."

so if he's wrong, paul, why don't you pull some stats up here and say so? i'm not saying he isn't wrong: i simply want you to show me that he is without having to resort to the response that "well, of course he's wrong, he's just like every other british person."

and, i'm sorry paul, but telling me that the best a british person can do is shut the fuck up sounds pretty weak to me.
posted by moz at 3:23 PM on November 7, 2001


And, on the "back alley" idea, I tend to agree with you. But shouldn't both sides back away now, for a week or so?
posted by walrus at 3:27 PM on November 7, 2001


FWIW, I understand why these people don't use the back entrance.

When I posted I was more concerned with giving an accurate picture of the current political situation than that particular problem. It's quite possible that I am displaying my innate historical bias in dismissing the concerns on that site as irrelevant.

I was thinking more of my (cliched, racist?) picture of Americans, who sometimes appear to think that the whole Irish situation can be reduced to a simple moral argument with an "obvious" solution. I honestly don't think it can. But if, in trying to correct that (possibly imaginary) problem, I have been unfair to the people who use this school then I apologise.

Just as Paul sees me as the part of my culture, I see him, and his post, as part of a wider attitude. In my eyes he posted the link with the intention of making a broader political point - one that I disagree with. Again, if that's not the case, then I apologise.

FWIW, I consider myself pro-republican. I'm also aware I may be saying no more than "some of my best friends are gay" or "I like nigegrs, but". The IRA, somewhere in its distant past, was a marxist organisation and this problem is largely economic. The people who are suffering most are the poor (both protestant and catholic). The rich (mainly protestant) aren't that affected.

I think the current compromise is the best chance going because, with peace, the economic situation might improve. But, as a comparatively rich, safe, englishman I am, as Paul points out, way out of touch with the people who are suffering here. So yes, it is easy for me to call on them to make greater and greater sacrifices...
posted by andrew cooke at 3:41 PM on November 7, 2001


Britain created this mess; you are the problem, not part of any solution.

The best a Briton can do is admit, "Christ, we fucked that country up real bad, we're sorry"; and then have the grace to keep quiet


Right. It's your fault because of your nationality. Remain silent because of your nationality. If I said what I thought about this shite, I'd have Godwin invoked on me. This is beyond obnoxious. Anyone?
posted by mcwetboy at 4:01 PM on November 7, 2001


mcwetboy: Agreed. I'm certainly not going to apologise for the mess in Ireland. I don't expect Paul to apologise for the mainland bombs of the IRA either.

As far as I'm concerned, a plague upon the houses of both Loyalists and Republicans. I've never seen any real indication that the people of Northern Ireland really want peace - too many votes for Sinn Fein and the DUP for that. If they want to go round in an endless cycle of bigotry, hatred and murder, then that's their business and I for one am not going to shed a tear for them.
posted by salmacis at 4:12 PM on November 7, 2001


Whoever said money was the root of all evil didn't take "religion" into consideration.

That quote could be from the apostle Paul (1 Tim. 6:10). In a second letter, he warns people to keep away from those who have the trappings of religion but haven't bothered to actually allow their behavior to change for the better (2 Tim. 3:5), which sounds like the kind of religion that you might find between air quotes. (And in other places too.)
posted by iceberg273 at 4:51 PM on November 7, 2001


sweet, sweet iceberg
posted by walrus at 4:58 PM on November 7, 2001


It (religion) strikes me as the PCP of the masses more than the opium.... iceberg "citation-man" 273 continues to amaze me.. "Quickly! To the Source-Mobile!"
posted by j.edwards at 5:18 PM on November 7, 2001


Andy, I never meant to say that Paul had no right to post it, he does. I was merely trying to say that posting something as politically and socially charged as this on MeFi will spark a serious debate, and that name-calling should not be brought into the conversation.

I guess I was just trying to say Don't post if you don't want criticism.

The other side of this is how Matt might feel about MeFi being used for fundraising, which is something they're discussing in MetaTalk.
posted by TacoConsumer at 5:20 PM on November 7, 2001


Maybe I skimmed over the Web site too fast but can someone explain to me who's on which side of the blockcade? And reference a few articles about what the other side is complaining about and using the schoolchildren to negociate? The Web side seems to be saying "Help the Children" without giving the full story of what's going on, how it got started, how long it's been happening etc.

I'm obviously familiar with the sectarianism in Ireland as a whole, I'm asking about this particular incident.
posted by bkdelong at 7:52 PM on November 7, 2001


Hmmm, I can't help but feel partly responsible, for asking someone to take the other side. Then along came Andrew Cooke, who I'm sure meant no real harm. Paul was a bit too harsh in tone, but not too far off. If you put Andrew's comments about the back door in the American civil rights perspective, that does cause a problem. And it fits too since the modern era of the Troubles began with peaceful marches inspired by the civil rights movement here in the sixties because Catholics were discriminated against in housing and employment (maybe everyone knows that). Andrew has a point about peace for it's own sake having a value at this point after so much killing and hatred. But I think you need to face down racists and facsists where you find them.
posted by chrismc at 8:23 PM on November 7, 2001


From email, with permission (I think the reply is interesting)

Hi,

I'm the evil englishman. Please, read my last post on MeFi and respond. I think your point of view is worth hearing (and I'm honestly sorry for the "see what I mean" post, but I think I was provoked.. ;-)

I'm afraid I won't respond now because I'm off to sleep (and I may not respond tomorrow if I can't think of anything else to say). But I honestly would like to see what you post (and I really don't like the mob mentality on Metafilter that means that a whole bunch of people start saying you shouldn't post there etc - ignore them).

Thanks,
Andrew


Andrew

I went off in the deep end, and for that I'm sorry: you least of all deserved that, judging by the quality of responses since. You, unlike most, attempted to engage the issue, and for that you should have got a more tempered response. But the substance of my reply remains unchanged. Let me draw a parallel. The policy of "busing" in the US was and remains controversial. But regardless of one's opinions on that specifically, and on related matters such as segregration/integration and so on, when one sees little children being abused and attacked by a howling mob, whether in Arkansas or Ardoyne, it is necessary to take a moral stance. Regardless of other problems, regardless of the past, these people have the right to use the streets! If you deny them that right in however well-intentioned a way, by suggesting that they are using their children as pawns, that they could use "the back way" (over a field and through a hole in a fence, by the way), then what you are suggesting is in effect a return to the bad old days. But those days are gone for ever, and at last we have a British government attempting to come to terms with this.

As for the mob mentality on metafilter, well, you certainly got that right! And I had no idea posting a simple link to a simple human rights issue would get me accused of being a tele-marketeer! I'll e-mail this because MeFi won't be seeing me again.

Paul
posted by andrew cooke at 2:45 AM on November 8, 2001


Interesting site. I smell a hidden - probably an Irish republican - agenda. It's interesting that on the current affairs section of Pauls site the links all point to republican sources. No moderate stuff there. So I guess that my instincts as regards smell are correct.

It should be noted that while the people who are protesting against these kids going to school by the darker part of that side of the Loyalist / Unionist community, the same can be said for the Republican / Nationalist community where the kids are sent down the front entrance to the school - not the alternative route.

If this whole mess was really about protecting the kids, the alternative entrance would be used - surely the safety and wellbeing of the kids is more important? But like everything in N.I. the name of the game is political points against the other side.

Republicans like Paul don't help the matter, rather, they exacerbate it. What part of Ireland are you from Paul, by the way?
posted by tomcosgrave at 5:59 AM on November 8, 2001


Tom: the kids are sent down the front entrance to the school - not

Paul: over a field and through a hole in a fence

I actually think Paul has a point there. He didn't help his cause by having a go at the British at the first opportunity though.
posted by walrus at 6:12 AM on November 8, 2001


"his cause" ... listen to me ... sheesh. I'm not partisan here.

He didn't help rational debate by havina a go ... etc.
posted by walrus at 6:14 AM on November 8, 2001


peace?
posted by andrew cooke at 11:05 AM on November 26, 2001


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