Sigh.
February 28, 2002 7:10 AM Subscribe
Sigh. In case all this talk of foreign crazies was stealing the spotlight from our homegrown malcontents.
What you talking about? Montana crazies are foreign (to me) as well!
posted by salmacis at 7:52 AM on February 28, 2002
posted by salmacis at 7:52 AM on February 28, 2002
Sigh... A better introduction on the front page could have made this a lively discussion.
What was their agenda anyway? Why do we care to understand why Islam (and the rest of the world) hates us, but we don't care why some of our own citizens are inclined to do this?
I want answers!
posted by eas98 at 9:24 AM on February 28, 2002
What was their agenda anyway? Why do we care to understand why Islam (and the rest of the world) hates us, but we don't care why some of our own citizens are inclined to do this?
I want answers!
posted by eas98 at 9:24 AM on February 28, 2002
This article from The Missoulian might explain things a little better as to the wacko agenda. If you want to know more about why they say they do what they do, check this.
Very much like the foriegn terrorists, these people are fearful of our government and its power, but somewhere they short-circuited and lost sight of the fact our government works for us, or rather they take that far too literally. Because the government doesn't cowtow to their agenda's (often isolationist and/or white supremicist) they feel that the govt. is out to get them, and they must force the issue. Many of them view the The Turner Diaries as some kind of Manifesto. What it boils down to is that these people are seriously frightened, generally poorly educated, and well armed. They think they know something the rest of don't, and the radicals among them are willing to kill as a wake up call.
I know that I've over-generalised somewhat, but try living and interacting with these whackjobs, sometime. They make Bush's "with us or against us" stance seem like polite diplomacy.
I'm terribly interested to find out what is on those confiscated hard drives.
posted by Wulfgar! at 9:52 AM on February 28, 2002
Very much like the foriegn terrorists, these people are fearful of our government and its power, but somewhere they short-circuited and lost sight of the fact our government works for us, or rather they take that far too literally. Because the government doesn't cowtow to their agenda's (often isolationist and/or white supremicist) they feel that the govt. is out to get them, and they must force the issue. Many of them view the The Turner Diaries as some kind of Manifesto. What it boils down to is that these people are seriously frightened, generally poorly educated, and well armed. They think they know something the rest of don't, and the radicals among them are willing to kill as a wake up call.
I know that I've over-generalised somewhat, but try living and interacting with these whackjobs, sometime. They make Bush's "with us or against us" stance seem like polite diplomacy.
I'm terribly interested to find out what is on those confiscated hard drives.
posted by Wulfgar! at 9:52 AM on February 28, 2002
"The Militia is not an "Anti-Government" group, but an "Anti-Corruption In Government" group."
Noteworthy that militia and some foreign terrorist groups appear to think that stockpiling weapons is a first step towards cleaning up corruption. Very unfortunate that they seem to have concluded the unarmed, "transparency and reform" approach doesn't work. US militia display a certain individualistic unwillingness to accept any sort of interactions with government that wouldn't be possible in more thickly settled parts of the world, or in places without strong central government, where militias actually have to fight with competing militias / warlords.
posted by sheauga at 11:54 AM on February 28, 2002
Noteworthy that militia and some foreign terrorist groups appear to think that stockpiling weapons is a first step towards cleaning up corruption. Very unfortunate that they seem to have concluded the unarmed, "transparency and reform" approach doesn't work. US militia display a certain individualistic unwillingness to accept any sort of interactions with government that wouldn't be possible in more thickly settled parts of the world, or in places without strong central government, where militias actually have to fight with competing militias / warlords.
posted by sheauga at 11:54 AM on February 28, 2002
something that always amuses me about militias is that they want an escalated conflict to bring in the military.
Big stand-offs occur between armed criminals and law enforcement. Law enforcement wants to arrest them, alive if possible. [as opposed to arresting bodies] What would a military operation be against a well armed group holed up in a cabin?
police vs. cabin = stand-off, tragedy
military vs. cabin = little bits of cabin and militia members and lots of smoke.
Very very different goals. They aren't a danger to the military in an 'open' conflict--they are a danger to civilians, law enforcement and federal employees.
posted by th3ph17 at 1:30 PM on February 28, 2002
Big stand-offs occur between armed criminals and law enforcement. Law enforcement wants to arrest them, alive if possible. [as opposed to arresting bodies] What would a military operation be against a well armed group holed up in a cabin?
police vs. cabin = stand-off, tragedy
military vs. cabin = little bits of cabin and militia members and lots of smoke.
Very very different goals. They aren't a danger to the military in an 'open' conflict--they are a danger to civilians, law enforcement and federal employees.
posted by th3ph17 at 1:30 PM on February 28, 2002
The whole point of a guerilla war is escalation. What the "freemen" and militia units count on is that the average citizen is ignorant of how authority figures are manipulating them and abusing power. When "we" see how awful the authority figures are, we'll take up arms and or force a larger (international) conflict. If you are already convinced that the United Nations and NATO is controlled by the Zionists or the Chinese, or who ever the object of paranoia de jour is, then its logical to believe that the American public will rise up in indignation, and follow the ones who "knew the truth" all along. Sounds like the same sing-song of Saddam Hussein in 1991, and the Taliban in 2001. And you're right, th3ph17, the results are predictable.
The problem lies in that the National Guard wouldn't be called in. This sort of domestic terror is the perview of the FBI and the ATF. Neither organization has proven itself very capable of handling guerilla tactics without broadening suspicion and creating more martyrs. In most of these situations (Ruby Ridge, the Freemen Compound) the cells of investigation were rather isolated and disorganized from militia fellows. Project Seven seems much more along the lines of the Order, and the information taken can help bring the whole organization down without a bloody fiasco (I hope).
On a personal note, my overriding feeling right now is: I wish these people would choose another fucking state to operate from!
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:21 PM on February 28, 2002
The problem lies in that the National Guard wouldn't be called in. This sort of domestic terror is the perview of the FBI and the ATF. Neither organization has proven itself very capable of handling guerilla tactics without broadening suspicion and creating more martyrs. In most of these situations (Ruby Ridge, the Freemen Compound) the cells of investigation were rather isolated and disorganized from militia fellows. Project Seven seems much more along the lines of the Order, and the information taken can help bring the whole organization down without a bloody fiasco (I hope).
On a personal note, my overriding feeling right now is: I wish these people would choose another fucking state to operate from!
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:21 PM on February 28, 2002
I should probably add, those in the militias who don't avoid all media control while wearing tinfoil hats, have probably seen First Blood way too many times.
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:36 PM on February 28, 2002
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:36 PM on February 28, 2002
The group called itself "Project Seven." In Fight Club, there was an underground militia called Project Mayhem. The same director, David Fincher, also directed Seven. Coincidence? ... Probably.
posted by kindall at 3:05 PM on February 28, 2002
posted by kindall at 3:05 PM on February 28, 2002
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posted by JaxJaggywires at 7:20 AM on February 28, 2002