April 6, 2002

10:20 AM

Tips down at StarbucksFor a while it seemed like tipping was proliferating out of control, including a tip jar in my local Subway, but now it's on the decline in Starbucks due to their new debit card. To get more money out of the customers, employees are holding strategy sessions to come up with "psychology tricks" and managers are reporting back to the mothership.
posted by NortonDC (76 comments total)

" (The starting wage for a Starbucks barista is $7.25 per hour.) "


Well, that's not exactly server wage, so I don't really see an argument here.
posted by bradth27 at 10:26 AM on April 6, 2002

It's interesting. Maybe this is just where I live now, but in Philadelphia, a substantial portion of the places I go don't allow tips for their workers. This is especially true in the burbs, where I occasionally take advantage of the free parking and go out to the barnes and noble with a Starbucks inside.

Or... they don't have a tip jar anyway -- I'm sure I could kick 'em down some money, but it hardly seems appropriate.
posted by ph00dz at 10:39 AM on April 6, 2002

At $3 to $4 for a cup of coffee, surely Starbucks is making money hand over fist. 25¢ shaved off the top of each overpriced brew going directly to the crew would surely resolve the issue.
posted by crunchland at 11:02 AM on April 6, 2002

I had one of the worst customer service experiences at a Starbucks in Rockville, MD the other day. Ordered a Decaf Mocha. No other customers in the store (first bad sign). She got my order wrong 3 times ringing it up and was loud, rude and confrontational like it was my fault. Then 4th time yells across the store "was that decaf?", I was at a loss. Finally its ready but rather then bring it over puts in on the counter at the opposite end of the store and just watches. So I walk over to the back of the store pick it up, walk outside and realize Im drinking a HOT CHOCOLATE .. not decaf, not coffee, not mocha. Threw it away and just kept moving on to a happier day. Leave no tip except dont back to [Starbucks in] Rockville.
posted by stbalbach at 11:02 AM on April 6, 2002

At $3 to $4 for a cup of coffee, surely Starbucks is making money hand over fist. 25¢ shaved off the top of each overpriced brew going directly to the crew would surely resolve the issue.

No, what they could possibily do is this: start selling the cup of coffee for 3.25 or 4.25 and only THEN give back the quarter to the baristas. it's not that mr Starbucks is going to tip his employees. He'll just have customers do that by adding a tipping charge
posted by matteo at 11:08 AM on April 6, 2002

That should be don't go back to Rockville

starting wage for a Starbucks barista is $7.25 per hour

That sucks. Agreed crunchland, commision is the way to go Starbucks is doing pretty good these days
posted by stbalbach at 11:09 AM on April 6, 2002

what sucks? 7.25 an hour? For someone handing someone else some coffee they just poured up? I don't think so. In fact, I think it's more than fair. When you have servers out there making a few bucks an hour, THAT'S depending on tips for a living. I did it for several years. I don't tip the guy at McDonalds, and that's about all they make. The point is, and I did have one a while back, is that everyone seems to be "dependant" on tips these days. Everytime I go to the airport, I am expected to tip everyone that even remotely acknowledges my existance. I tip on average 30 percent to servers, and usually 15 to 20 % to bartenders. But to someone who hands me my coffee? And is doing so at the hourly wage of 7.20 an hour?
Big fat stiff from me. I say these people need to stop whining and get on with it. Go wait tables, take a paycut of 4 or 5 dollars an hour, and then I may tip.
posted by bradth27 at 11:20 AM on April 6, 2002

Which Rockville Starbucks, stbalbach? I'm not far from there, and it's impossible that a town the size of Rockville would have only one.

Even though $7.25/hour translates into something like $15 k/year, and the baristas aren't exactly swimming in it, I've never given a tip there. How would that be different from tipping at McDonald's?
posted by anapestic at 11:24 AM on April 6, 2002

*whine! whine! whine!*

Tip jars becoming part of counter culture? The Tipping home page. All expressed frustration with the daunting task of managing, tracking, and reporting the tip jar information ... This is where Jartrek comes in.

Did those baristas have any idea what a daunting undertaking this is?
posted by sheauga at 11:27 AM on April 6, 2002

> The starting wage for a Starbucks barista is $7.25 per hour.
Thanks for this link and thread. I was just about to apply to be a barista at Starbucks on 16th St NW DC, but now I know better. ;)
posted by brownpau at 11:47 AM on April 6, 2002

Tipping's a funny thing. It's cultural. I don't tip anyone apart from restaurant waiters, taxi drivers and hotel porters and only then because it's expected. I believe in price transparency. The price you're charged is the price you pay. If you didn't really mean me to pay that price then you should've bloody said so. Employers should pay decent wages and not rely on customers who quite possibly are not earning as much as the people they're tipping. It's disrespectful to the customer IMO. Don't even get me started on restaurants that include a compulsory service charge. Are you telling me that's going to the waiters?
posted by Summer at 12:00 PM on April 6, 2002

Tipping is a funny thing. It really is.

I don't think anyone who makes more than minimum wage should be bitching about not getting any tips. Those are not tipped jobs. I should give you extra money because you did your job? It isn't happening. I tip in a restaurant to a server, because it is assumed that the cost of the tip is part of the meal. But to someone slopping up coffee, hardly. I pay with debit card at coffee shops.

Also... I have to go to the counter. If the person brought me my coffee from across the room, then yes maybe I would tip (50 cents maybe?), but not for someone who simply shifts around and doesn't even move their feet.

And if service is bad, I will not tip. We were having a work party at a restaurant. We were a pretty big bunch, but we got horrible service. And of course, a 15% charge was added to the bill "for our convenience." I told the manager that while their policy is to add that on, it is assumed we would receive good service. I made him promptly remove the extra charges.

On the other hand, if service is good, I will tip well.
posted by benjh at 12:13 PM on April 6, 2002

sheauga - I don't have a feel for your take on how the living wage argument impacts sbux and tipping. The link you provided suggests $6.50-$7.50 per hour as a living wage. Sbux starts toward the high end of that, and it does provide medical, dental, and vision coverage to all workers, including part-timers.
posted by NortonDC at 12:16 PM on April 6, 2002

Stupid Customer Questions - Retail workers of the world, vent! (via MeFi TextAds.) In some cities, Starbucks is in fact a living wage, due to medical insurance. In others, it isn't. The amount of money recuperated from the average coffee stand tip jar is usually so small, it merely serves as a convenience which enables customers to dispose of unwanted coins received in change.
posted by sheauga at 12:22 PM on April 6, 2002

Everyone here who is against tipping amuse me. No one is forcing you to give them extra money. People tip Baristas for many reasons. One of those reasons is good service. Another is when a Barista is just being overly pleasant. Or just because the drink is sometimes that good. Or because Baristas are usually college students trying to put themselves through school.

Hell, no one NEEDS to tip anything. No one needs to give a homeless person a quarter or a dollar. I remember a few years ago I was in New Haven, CT attending a program for a month. Anyway, every time I walked around the city, the homeless came to me and asked for change. At one point I gave one guy a $20 bill and said, "I know ya'll work together, spread the wealth." From then on, they knew who I was and left me alone. I felt good. And that money was in good hands, as far as I was concerned.

You don't have to tip. You also don't have to be a nice person. You can go through life being a jackass and probably live a happy and successful life. It's the little things that make life great. Some guy once gave me $5 for making him a good drink and having a decent conversation. I felt good. He felt good for it. No harm, no foul. This is humanity. This is like donating to charity, only with a human face attached.
posted by BlueTrain at 12:25 PM on April 6, 2002

Do you know what this is? It's the world's smallest violin, playing just for the waitresses.

--Mr. White
posted by adampsyche at 12:30 PM on April 6, 2002

I'm sorry. It would have been quoted sooner or later.
posted by adampsyche at 12:31 PM on April 6, 2002

as a former starbucks barista, there are a few things i'd like to clear up.

re: customer service- it sucks that you got the shaft in rockville, but rest assured that that's not typical of the company. i sat through about seven hours worth of training sessions about customer service and all you have to do is ask to talk to the manager. their job is to make you happy. i've recivied subpar service at a starbucks before and when i complained and told the manager that'd i'd even worked there before, she gave me a certificate for a few free drinks. that's how it should be.

re: wages- most baristas start at 6.50 an hour (i worked at one in suburban baltimore, md) and get a raise to 7 after three months of employment along with their benefits. 6.50 is not a living wage. tips usually come out to about a dollar extra for every hour that you worked. it's needed. i always tip at starbucks. even when i was unemployed myself, i'd throw my change (about 80 cents) in.

re: tipping- being a barista isn't a hard job. it's basic counter stuff/making drinks (harder than just pouring coffee, though. you try to recall how to make half-caf tall skim no foam two sweet and low half syrup vanilla latte in about fifteen seconds.), but when you don't get paid well and have to take crap from patrons who treat you like you're five...those tips can make your day. i remember having a horrible day but seeing someone toss a few quarters in the tip jar. it lets you know that you're doing a good job.

my point? don't tip if you don't want to. but realize that what goes around comes around, and that if you can't spare fifty cents for a barista who goes out of her way to be nice, she may not see the point in smiling next time.
posted by amandaudoff at 12:37 PM on April 6, 2002

The Rockville Starbucks .. which is actually in Gaithersburg, sorry.
posted by stbalbach at 12:40 PM on April 6, 2002

i wouldn't correct you had i not seen that movie yesterday, adampsyche, but it was mr. pink. give buscemi his due!
posted by pikachulolita at 12:43 PM on April 6, 2002

Hey boys and girls, it's so simple and so much cheaper: why don't you make your own coffee in your own kitchen?
If you want to consume conspicuously, conspicuous tipping is part of it.
posted by semmi at 12:54 PM on April 6, 2002

Dang, they make more than i do...(of course I live in the slave-wage south....)

Just for comparison, when I worked for waffle house, the hourly wage was something like 2.50 an hour.....now THAT is what I call tip dependent. Ever since, when I get the urge for Waffle House coffee and ambiance, I remember to overtip like crazy....the waitresses have excellent memories, and they will treat you like royalty if you do.

Too bad you can't get a decaf mocha there, you'd be set for life....
posted by bunnyfire at 12:59 PM on April 6, 2002

"my point? don't tip if you don't want to. but realize that what goes around comes around, and that if you can't spare fifty cents for a barista who goes out of her way to be nice, she may not see the point in smiling next time."

You better smile, otherwise, you may find out the point. The point is, I am paying a God-awful amount of money for a cup of coffee from a company you represent. I don't care if I tip you or not. You smile, or you run the risk of me talking to your boss and you losing your job. period. Don't want to be friendly? Get a job somewhere else not related to customer service.
posted by bradth27 at 1:06 PM on April 6, 2002

"You better smile, otherwise, you may find out the point. The point is, I am paying a God-awful amount of money for a cup of coffee from a company you represent. I don't care if I tip you or not. You smile, or you run the risk of me talking to your boss and you losing your job. period. Don't want to be friendly? Get a job somewhere else not related to customer service."

speaking of points, i think you missed mine. don't want to pay that much for a cup of bloody coffee? don't walk in the door. and you're going to talk to my boss because i don't smile? my job is to get you your coffee, give you the correct change, and send you on your merry way. if i decide to be nice, give you an extra smile, and ask you how your day went, it's because i want to. not because i have to. and if you decide to throw some change in the tip jar, it's because you wanted to.

why can't we all just remember the golden rule? treat others as you'd like to be treated and all that.
posted by amandaudoff at 1:16 PM on April 6, 2002

Bunnyfire, I too live in the South, so I feel your pain, so to speak. But the average amount by law to be paid to servers doesn't vary all that much from state to state, sadly..... I waited tables in Texas for 4 years, making ..I think it was $1.85 when I started. After taxes, I never received a check, just s statement, and a "check" for zero dollars. THAT'S living off of tips. When I moved to CA, I got a job at the Ritz-Carlton when I lived in Laguna Beach.
Know what I made in hourly wage? $2.13 an hour. So it's not just the South, as far as server wage goes....(although, in all fairness, I was averaging $6,000 a month working 35 hours a week. Not bad for a waiter.)
posted by bradth27 at 1:17 PM on April 6, 2002

You don't have to tip

Yes you do. It's culturally mandated. If you don't tip at restaurants, waiters and your fellow diners think you're a twat and that you're insulting the waiter personally. It's part of etiquette. But when you think about it, tipping is totally random. In Britain nobody expects you to tip the bar staff but in America there are special rules surrounding this, even if you're sitting at the bar rather than being waited on.

No one needs to give a homeless person a quarter or a dollar

Charity is not the same. Employees should not be charity cases. My gripe is that tipping lets the employer off the hook. Good customer service should come automatically and the effort it takes should be compensated for by the employer. You're already paying over the odds for the coffee/food. You are if you're living in London anyway.

why don't you make your own coffee in your own kitchen?

Sometimes I'm not at home. Sometimes I'm out. I don't do anything conspicuously. I sit quietly in the corner with a book.
posted by Summer at 1:22 PM on April 6, 2002

"and you're going to talk to my boss because i don't smile? my job is to get you your coffee, give you the correct change, and send you on your merry way. if i decide to be nice, give you an extra smile, and ask you how your day went, it's because i want to. "

And that is why you don't work for me. I wouldn't put up with that kind of attitude. Ever. Most places, and I would be willing to bet Starbucks is the same, require you to be nice to me. I am a paying customer, bottom line. You are the person representing the company I am paying my money to. So smile, unless I piss you off. And I am very friendly to people behind the counter, don't get me wrong. But if I don't get the right kind of service, you can bet I will complain.
posted by bradth27 at 1:23 PM on April 6, 2002

The last time I waited tables the wage was 2.01 an hour, I think it's 2.31 or something now. In other words, waiters, waitresses and bartenders are generally paid less than half of minimum wage. (Which I think should be illegal, I've never understood how service people are exempt from minimum wage laws.)

As a rule, I tip 30% when the service is good, 20% if it's just ok...I've rarely run into terrible service.

I avoid Starbucks anyway, because a $4.00 cup of coffee is just silly, but I wouldn't tip them any more than I tip the guy at 7-11, or the clerk at Nordstroms when she rings up a pair of shoes.

If the customer is standing at a counter, orders, picks up and pays for their product at the same counter, then you have a retail operation. Retail people don't get tipped.
posted by dejah420 at 1:24 PM on April 6, 2002

I've spent money at Starbucks many times, but never for coffee. I have never felt the slightest urge to tip someone for handing me a brownie or ringing up a tin mints.
posted by NortonDC at 1:25 PM on April 6, 2002

Ever since, when I get the urge for Waffle House coffee and ambiance, I remember to overtip like crazy

I used to be a chambermaid and always leave money in hotel rooms because I know what a bloody horrible and physically demanding job it is. So I've just undermined my own argument.
posted by Summer at 1:25 PM on April 6, 2002

Someone's Celebrating National Big Business Day at Starbucks today.
posted by sheauga at 1:27 PM on April 6, 2002

Well, bradth, good luck finding employees. These days if you can find a warm body that can make change correctly, you feel privileged.

It really is hard to find good help these days. You should have seen what our office manager went through trying to find a decent receptionist. (for the real estate company I telecommute for). They have an excellent one now, but it was grimly amusing for awhile....
posted by bunnyfire at 1:31 PM on April 6, 2002

the cost of coffee is an interesting economic issue in and of itself.

I don't go to Starbucks but I also don't go to almost any coffee joint if I can handle it. Part of my problem -- besides the cost -- is the hidden sociofinancial obligation that seems to be undertaken between the barista/smiler and the consumer/smilee. This has been an interesting thread because I learned more about what people think about that particular transaction than I ever would have been able to suss out through my own personal intereactions at home. Summer is right, the rules are weird and tough to gauge sometime.

Amandaudoff, you seem to be saying both that your company expected you to smile, and that it's some sort of bonus you give the customer for that should be appreciated over and above the cost of the drink. I think it sucks that you had to have a job that essentially mandates smiling, but then I hate the service industry culture anyhow [not the service industry workers]. I overtip my friends and try hard not to go anywhere where my friends don't work.
posted by jessamyn at 1:31 PM on April 6, 2002

bunnyfire, it is hard to find good employees, yes.... but usually there is no problem finding someone to work, with a little bit of time. (this for a catering company)....but as for my job, some of the applications I have seen in the past are a bit amusing, yes. If you apply for a job at a library, please don't start your "brief description of yourself" stating:
I like to reed a lot. I read all the time. Sometimes I reed to my nabor.
posted by bradth27 at 1:38 PM on April 6, 2002

bradth27- let me make something a bit clearer. i'm essentially a nice person. i worked at starbucks because i liked interacting with the customers. i wasn't in it to get rich from people's tips. the amount of money that gets tipped at starbucks is laughable anyway. (like i said before...about fifty cents a person is average which works out to about a dollar an hour for each person working on that shift.)

i'll smile and ask you how your day is because i want to. i got the job at starbucks because that's the kind of person i am. in a retail/service situation, people are hired for their customer service skills. i've never been the type to stand there and grunt at the customers. if they wanted that, they don't need me. it's the difference between the normal checkout line at the grocery and the 'ring yourself out' section.

like i said, you don't have to tip. it's not mandatory. if you're really broke or are just having a crappy day or just don't want to give me your spare change, it's your perrogative. however, we used to have quite a few regulars at the starbucks i worked at. some tipped, some didn't. the ones that tipped were also almost always the ones that i found myself chatting with as i made their drink. they were just nicer. everyone else got a 'hey, how are you?' and went on their way. i'm not going to poison your drink or be a smartass because you don't throw a few coins in the jar, i'm just going to be really appreciative if you do.

and jessamyn- what i was trying to say (and probably wasn't very clear about) was that good customer service is expected. but going the extra mile (i.e. giving someone a free drink every now and then, chatting about the weather, whatever.) is left to the barista's discretion. and as someone working there, i always appreciated that flexibility and i know my customers did as well.
posted by amandaudoff at 1:56 PM on April 6, 2002

Amandaudoff..... thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression you felt as if you could be a complete ass to me if you wanted to. I was just about to whip out the Starbucks mission statement, which contradicts that opinion on the subject of customer service. I agree with your last comment for the most part. I treated my regulars and better tippers the same way when I waited tables.
I do tip, and I tip well. I understand the server who works for below the regular minimum wage... I do feel, however, the whole "tipping" attitude has just gotten out of hand. I don't see a clear distinction on someone behind the counter at Starbucks, and someone behind the counter of a fast food restaurant. Or the reason why I should tip one and not the other.
Anyway, nice argument. Always glad to vent frustration.
posted by bradth27 at 2:03 PM on April 6, 2002

As a non-American from a country that doesn't tip I find the custom of tipping unfair. A tip is an acknowledgement of the quality of the service, yes, but servers also rely on it as wages. Isn't it unfair then that a waitress at an expensive restaurant will generate more tips and so get paid more than a diner waitress for what is essentially the same job?. Please explain.
posted by dydecker at 2:23 PM on April 6, 2002

I'm allergic to starbucks on account of the "big business eating local coffee shops" issue, since I have a particular affinity for good, local, unique places. But that only really applies in big cities; when I was passing through minnesota I found myself wishing for starbucks - I've heard people say their coffee's crap, but I've never heard it equated with dishwater, so I imagine it woulda been a step up. Anyway, the point is, I sometimes leave tips at the counter for local coffee places, but that's because I think of it as a little donation to keep the place going in the face of all those starbucks (& other chains).

$7.25 an hour is a good deal for a counter job, though. Unfair to push the consumer to leave extra money for the privilege of standing in line. Hey - when you stay longer at a restaurant, you usually leave a bigger tip; should you leave more at the counter if your wait in line is longer than usual?
posted by mdn at 2:41 PM on April 6, 2002

mdn - Tips go to the employees, not the employer. How does rewarding employees only in what you percieve to be local coffee shops help the shop or hurt sbux?
posted by NortonDC at 2:49 PM on April 6, 2002

i wouldn't correct you had i not seen that movie yesterday, adampsyche, but it was mr. pink. give buscemi his due!

*hangs head in shame*
posted by adampsyche at 2:59 PM on April 6, 2002

Yes you do. It's culturally mandated.

Not for walk-up counter service and drive-thrus it isn't, not in the least. Like bradth27 said, you don't tip the person taking your order at McDonald's, and he/she is probably making the same amount as a Starbucks "barista" (a word that isn't even in most dictionaries, I might add) or less, and isn't getting medical insurance on top of that either. He/she's also probably working harder, too. (As this thread has made clear, Starbucks treats its employees extremely well by the general standards of the food service industry, and the job certainly doesn't involve slaving over deep fryers and hot grills for eight solid hours.) The first time I saw a tip jar at Starbucks, I was absolutely shocked.
posted by aaron at 3:17 PM on April 6, 2002

(I did often end up tipping though, as long as I was treated well and my order wasn't screwed up, but I never felt quite right about it. I got the feeling that Amanda just mentioned, though from a reverve perspective: you were going to get better treatment if you tipped than if you didn't. I never was enough into Starbucks to go often enough to test this theory out though. Almost every time I showed up I got a different server.)
posted by aaron at 3:20 PM on April 6, 2002

I have a LIFETIME of experience in this area, so gather round, peeps.

Tipping is a uniquely American prerogative: in no other culture does the infernal revenue service scrutinize so closely those service industry folks making $30,000 or less per annum. Believe me.

Never tip a barber who owns his own shop.

If you felt comfortable and recognized the last time you visited your favorite local eatery, you are doing something right. If you did not, then you aren't tipping enough.

If a waiter recommends a good bottle of wine that is less than the bottle you had selected, be a man and make up the difference in the tip. That's a professional doing his job.

The more you bitch, the less likely anyone is to solve your problem.

The waiter really does know what is up: you deserve a truthful answer as to whether the fish is fresh.

Drink.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 3:29 PM on April 6, 2002

dydecker: Isn't it unfair then that a waitress at an expensive restaurant will generate more tips and so get paid more than a diner waitress for what is essentially the same job?

Y'know, this is a quandary I've had for some time. For example: I get lunch almost once a week at a place in Pioneer Square called the Central. Food's decent but just as importantly quite inexpensive, but I always get great service from the waitresses, who say diner style things like "Hon" and "Sweetie" and keep checking up on me to make sure my drink is refilled and I'm not needing anything as I eat. Now some nights, I'll have dinner at the far more posh Broadway Grill, but the service with a few (not all) of the servers is at best inconsistent. However, the Broadway Grill has meal prices easily twice the cost of the Central (although the quality of the food is markedly better).

So when it comes to tipping, though, why should a "minimum" 15% of the bill for those shoddy Grill waiters or waitresses end up being more money than the 20-30% of the bill for the kickass Central waitresses? Just because some of those lackluster Grill employees happen to be working at a place with more expensive food and decor, they're more amply rewarded for crappy service than those who do a great job at a place where the size of the of the bill precludes huge tips. If tipping rewards service, shouldn't it be more of a flat rate than a percentage? I.e., $1+ per person per hour that you're there, that kind of thing?

That said, I think tipping in general should be the exception, not the rule- given in times of unusually good service. When I get espresso at the always stellar Espresso Vivace, I tip because they kick butt, not because my coffee is any better or worse when I don't tip, or because they're any less friendly. I'm happy to slip a dollar in that tip jar every now and then because they do good work. But in general, tipping is externalizing the costs of production for the restaurant owner: the entrepreneur's job is to find a way to make that meal under certain restrictions- hire people to cook it and bring it to my table while paying them a living wage, don't violate health codes cuz it's cheaper to do so, that sort of thing. If they can adjust their prices to cover these costs, while finding that balance of profit margin that ensures both a strong customer base and their own success, then they win! Whoohoo! If they can't do this, then they FAIL, and MidasMulligan will be there to throw wilted roses onto their financial grave. Restaurants have been around too long to believe that the fundamental business model is inherently unworkable with well-paid staff. My beef is that I'm guilted into making up the difference in the employee's salary out of the goodness of my heart just so the owner can make the numbers work without skipping payments on his Benz (I recognize that this is not always the case with many business owners, some of whom make very little money even as the owner.).

Not that Starbucks' $7.25 is a great wage, but at least it's a couple bucks above minimum, unlike that bullshit $2.50 or whatever servers make as wages. If it costs X to get the beans, Y to cover overhead on the coffee shop, and Z to pay the employees a fair amount, then charge C for the coffee to cover all those costs, plus P for your own business-owner take home. If that price is too much, then lower it- or the market will adjust and decide that coffee is better made at home where Y and Z aren't a factor.

Tipping is subsidizing bad business management.
posted by hincandenza at 4:01 PM on April 6, 2002

Never tip a barber who owns his own shop.

Not never. It's not required, but as the son of a former salon owner, trust me, the tip is appreciated muchly.
posted by feckless at 4:08 PM on April 6, 2002

Wow, the US wages are pretty shocking. When I was a waitress at school in Victoria, BC, we got minimum wage (which is now $8 an hour, I think that's now what, $1 US?)

I've never tipped 30% here, and that's probably why. Average is 15%, sometimes 20% for great service. Some people I know automatically tip 20% up here, but we already pay 7% federal tax and if we drink add another 7% provincial tax.

So where minimum wage laws apply to servers, the tipping portion goes down significantly. And the less tips, the less you can hide on your income tax.
posted by Salmonberry at 4:30 PM on April 6, 2002

Re: Being Expected To Smile!

"Specifically, the literature suggests that the emotional work undertaken by women in service sector occupations is often socially under-valued and personally exhausting".

"Emotional labor may affect service recipients positively and service providers negatively ... " -- Emotional Work Requirements, Burnout, and Performance
posted by sheauga at 4:44 PM on April 6, 2002

i've always wondered what would happen to the service industry if employers were forced by law to meet miniumum wage and tipping was "outlawed". would wait staff be upset at this, or rejoice? presumably, it would depend on the establishment. would the people making kickass tip money then quit? or... i dunno. it's all pretty strange.

when i was in australia, they wouldn't take my tips. i actually had a cab driver ROUND DOWN the cost of a fare. i was shocked.
posted by dobbs at 4:56 PM on April 6, 2002

sheauga - Okay, two links, one about workers in doctors' offices and another for a conference presentation on how all jobs, not just those that interface with the public (like the single job referenced in the first link), have emotional requirements.

Since the only the way the first one relates to the topic (dealing with the public) is undercut by the second, and no relevance has been established on the gender of Starbucks employees, you're going to have to be more forthcoming if you want this to make any sense, at least to me.

(did the conference in the second link even occur? I was travelling inside of two months after 9/11, but most weren't.)
posted by NortonDC at 5:16 PM on April 6, 2002

I'm a cook. I don't tip someone for pouring me a cup of coffee, nor would I expect someone to, were the roles reversed.

Here's a tip for ya', don't expect money for doing a job you're being paid for. Unless you're a server, in which case your whole job is serving someone and making sure all their needs are met. A coffee-jockey is just a glorified cashier.

Also folks, when you're tipping waitresses/waiters, that many kitchens divy up the tips among the WHOLE staff. I, myself, receive a cut of our tips every 2nd week. It's a nice system, as it's the cooks who enable the servers to earn the tips. So, if you think it's a bad thing that some servers make a ton of money in tips, remember that the majority of the kitchen staff shares in on that bonus.
posted by Dark Messiah at 5:17 PM on April 6, 2002

Since the only the way the first one relates to the topic (dealing with the public) is undercut by the second, and no relevance has been established on the gender of Starbucks employees, you're going to have to be more forthcoming if you want this to make any sense, at least to me.

I have to agree. Sheauga, I generally love what you do, but posting links for links' sake sometimes just throws off the conversation at hand, and I think it can hinder the development of threads that aren't either slowing down earlier than they deserve to or that have devolved into flamefests. And neither of those is the case here.
posted by aaron at 5:35 PM on April 6, 2002

As a former Starbucks barista, I'd just like to add my two cents... I don't think anyone I ever worked with "depended" on what little we got from the tip jar - it was just an extra; at best it might buy someone an extra pack of smokes, or a slurpee or two.

Also, on the topic of "I-don't-have-to-smile-if-I-don't-feel-like-it", my experience at Starbucks was that you did have to smile - they had rules about it, and "Secret Shoppers" that would come in and rate the quality of service, etc., on a regular basis. If the Secret Shopper gave the store a bad 'review', the description of the barista(s) (baristii?) that were snarky (or whatever) were always carefully analyzed against whoever was scheduled on that day. I had lots of friends "written up" because they didn't "smile and say thank you" in the middle of an incredible "bar drink" rush.

Like I said, just my experience...
posted by scribblative at 5:51 PM on April 6, 2002

I looked into opening a coffee shop about six years ago. At that time the cost to deliver a cup of espresso-brewed coffee was calculated at C$0.30 *inclusive* of overhead, including wages.

The price of coffee beans has dropped significantly since that time.

Starfucks is making an obscene profit. If Starbucks employees had half a clue, they'd be insisting on higher wages, and forgo the tips.

My job is to get you your coffee, give you the correct change, and send you on your merry way. if i decide to be nice, give you an extra smile, and ask you how your day went, it's because i want to. not because i have to.

If you don't give me the smile, chances are I won't be back. Multiply that enough, and you just lost a job, because the business went tits-up.

Your job, according to your boss, is to make repeat customers. Think about it.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:01 PM on April 6, 2002

Tips go to the employees, not the employer. How does rewarding employees only in what you percieve to be local coffee shops help the shop or hurt sbux?

It entices all the good friendly people go to work at the local places, thereby ensuring Starbucks can only hire surly staff?
posted by kindall at 7:38 PM on April 6, 2002

Wow, tipping sure is a contentious issue here at old MeFi.
posted by machaus at 8:18 PM on April 6, 2002

scribblative ain't whistlin' dixie. I've been in retail for over ten years and you better be on your toes 24/7 or they will get you. The "secret shopper" phenomenon has existed in every place I've ever worked. I understand the need for decent customer service, but keeping up a chipper demeanor round the clock can play hell with your mental hygeine. Keeping up the happy front is especially difficutlt when the general public often sees service workers as the dumping grounds for whatever frustrations they've encountered that day.
Barristas, booksellers, salespeople and the rest of the service-industry front lines have bad days just like everyone else only we're not allowed to let it visibly get to us, for fear of a bad secret shopper report or getting chewed out by a boss because you didn't smile enough. Make no mistake, just one complaint can cost that kid in the nametag his paycheck. If someone is egregiously rude, go ahead ask to see the manager, but remember, his job is on the line. Never mind tipping, sometimes just a simple "thank you" or a compliment for a job well done can make that latte-makers day.
posted by jonmc at 8:58 PM on April 6, 2002

Starbucks is evil. I hate them. I hate them. I hate them. I hate them.

*ahem*

Sorry.

Back to your regularly scheduled Mefi'ing.
posted by gloege at 10:04 PM on April 6, 2002

thanks. thanks a lot, gloege.
posted by pikachulolita at 12:47 AM on April 7, 2002

If you don't give me the smile, chances are I won't be back.

Ok, so maybe its a cultural thing I just don't understand, but when I first moved to the US (from London, UK), I had a hard time getting used to all these folks with the automata smiles in service jobs grinning inanely at me and continually asking after my health - "Hi, how are you today!". Quite frankly, I find it hard to believe such people have the slightest genuine interest in my day or my well-being. Nor should they, that's not their problem. Their problem is to efficiently deliver whatever it is I've decided to buy from them. "Have a great day!". What if I don't? Would they feel a sense of faliure, or even guilt, if I went back the next day and reported that, well, actually, yesterday I caught a stinking cold, it rained all afternoon, my boss is an idiot and on the way home I got a flat?

Got used to it after a while of course, and maybe I'm just a cynical old grump, but have never shaken off the opinion that people who have such jobs are so outrageously cheerful to me because I might tip well if they do and their boss might fire them if they don't. So who wants to be on the receiving end of such vacuous and insincere sentiment?

Far as I'm concerned, servers who get my order correct and deliver it efficiently and with the minimum fuss are the most likely to get a good tip, although I'd rather they were recognized for their good work by someone more important to them than me... like their boss, maybe, who could pay them a sensible salary rather than advertise to all their customers how miserly they are by expecting tipping of their staff.
posted by normy at 7:50 AM on April 7, 2002

normy - believe it or not, the interest in how you're doing may be to a certain extent genuine, especially if you become a familiar face at the establishment. A lot of retail lifers(like me) stay in the profession precisely because we're sociable sorts who actually like shooting the breeze with strangers and seeing diffferent faces al the time. You work in an office or at home, you get none of that(and if you happen to not like your cubicle mates, your life will be hell.)
But like I said in my earlier comment, we have our bad days too, so take that into account when the girl frothing the milk on your decaf cappuccino seems a little grumpy. Cut her slack that day and she'll be be yer pal the next, trust me.
posted by jonmc at 8:16 AM on April 7, 2002

You know what makes me sad? A Starbucks server makes $7.25 an hour. I make less then three dolloars more, and I'm a fucking teacher. But that's okay. I'm not bitter or anything. -.-
posted by FunkyHelix at 10:14 AM on April 7, 2002

Funky, you're only responsible for socializing our kids and laying the groundwork for them to be functional, contributing members of this society.

The Starbucks barista, though, is responsible for coffee, man! The mental health of the nation is at stake!

I think everyone with a sense of proportion must agree: [sarcasm] you're overpaid. [/sarcasm]

(Re-reading your post: you teach sex ed? Cool! Nice, ah, perks?)
posted by five fresh fish at 10:32 AM on April 7, 2002

How does rewarding employees only in what you percieve to be local coffee shops help the shop or hurt sbux?

1 - half the time the kid who starts the shop is behind the counter him/herself & 2 - it encourages people to work for the local community shops, rather than the corporate implants - and that can be tough because multi million dollar corporations can commonly offer more benefits than local people with creativity and a passion for (whatever, coffee, books, etc).

And it's not a matter of "perception" - if a shop is the idea of a member of the community, if someone had a particular creative vision of an environment, and created it, then it is a local shop. If the shop is a corporation's attempt to squeeze more money out of an area (starbucks has 3 different shops within a block of one another on Astor Place in NY, and another one a few blocks over on 2nd ave. They tried to open on Ave A but the locals wouldn't sell the real estate to starbucks! yay. but eventually someone will probably fold and that will suck) - then it's not local! Starbucks is a replica of a shop that began in seattle. It does not come out of the neighborhood, it does not express the community, it is only a business, generic, convenient, irrelevant.

Starbucks does not feel connected to NYC, and the managers of their corporate stores (which most of them are, as opposed to franchises) are people who got jobs, not people who dreamed about creating something in their neighborhood. And franchise owners are almost worse: they have the money but they can't come up with an idea or take any risks; instead they inflict another replica on the neighborhood to increase their personal net gains.
posted by mdn at 11:37 AM on April 7, 2002

starbucks has 3 different shops within a block of one another on Astor Place in NY...

Okay, I admit it's been about two years since I lived just off Astor Place. But THREE other shops within a ONE-block radius? Can I ask where?
posted by aaron at 1:28 PM on April 7, 2002

aaron: There's one inside the Barnes & Noble on the south west corner of Astor Place. There's one on the ground floor of an office building on the west side of Astor Place. And there's one right next to one of the Cooper Union buildings on the east side of Astor Place (until about 2 years ago it was part of another chain -- it has a little outdoor seating area out front, you might remember it).

And of course, there's also one less than 2 blocks away on 2nd Avenue. And another one two blocks south on Broadway at Bond Street.

Criminy!
posted by bcwinters at 2:15 PM on April 7, 2002

There's always been one inside the B&N; I'd forgotten about that one. It was there even before the real, full-fledged Starbucks opened on Astor I think, right across from the Kmart. And yeah, I remember the Cooper Union shop. Thanks for the update. (Is the Kmart still there? Someone told me it shut.)
posted by aaron at 2:46 PM on April 7, 2002

yeah, the astor place starbux phenomenon is truly scary. the only other thing in manhattan nearly as frightening is the gap.

I b'lieve the kmart is still there, last time I walked by they had some sort of diznee children's clothes ads in the windows.

I'm much happier now that we make our own espresso at home...
posted by dorian at 3:07 PM on April 7, 2002

btw, I'd *much* rather spend my $3.50 at the saint's alp around the corner from st. marks...
posted by dorian at 3:09 PM on April 7, 2002

Kmart's still there. It's amazing to me; when I was growing up, Astor place was where all the punks & skaters hung out; there was a diner, and a couple coffee shops and cheap food places nearby. Now Astor Place has Kmart, Barnes & Noble, 3 Starbucks', a Kinko's and a Mcdonald's surrounding it. There is almost nothing BUT chain stores there now

i've always wondered what would happen to the service industry if employers were forced by law to meet miniumum wage and tipping was "outlawed". would wait staff be upset at this, or rejoice?

I can't imagine who would rejoice. In NY waiters can usually count on $100 a shift and commonly make 2 or even 3 times that (well bartenders, anyway). Tipping is so ingrained now that if it's crappy service you "only" leave 15%...

I've never worked as a waiter because I'm just too easily annoyed/ frustrated, and also kinda klutzy, but a majority of my friends have at one time or another, and they generally haven't bothered holding onto waiting jobs that paid less unless there was the promise of a better shift that would generate the tips they wanted. Twice minimum wage, minus taxes, would be what, maybe $60? No rejoicing.
posted by mdn at 3:21 PM on April 7, 2002

And Messiah, shouldn't you be giving that same waitstaff some cash out of your own pocket on the nights when the kitchen's not doing so great and the servers are losing tips because of you? No? Thought not. And by that same light why are you getting that cut? Aren't you the one who just said that you shouldn't expect to get tipped for a job you're being paid for? You're in the kitchen. They're out front. For all intents and purposes they are the face of your business to the public. And as such they can determine whether they come back or avoid you for good.

As to this whole business about not tipping service people, all this just goes to show me is that people just love to unload their shit on service people. It's so easy. And you've got them over a barrel too - if they give you any crap you can rat them out in a second. And after all, it's not a real job. Hey, you could do it, right? You just don't want to. Noone ever unloads a ton of crap on these people. Nah. They're just too dumb.

My mother always used to say "If you don't have enough money to tip, you don't have enough money to go out."
posted by ClydeCrashcup at 4:30 PM on April 7, 2002

mdn - And it's not a matter of "perception" - if a shop is the idea of a member of the community, if someone had a particular creative vision of an environment, and created it, then it is a local shop.

So, if a person just moved in to a new city for the purpose of opening their own shop there, is it local? Maybe they've lived there 6 months. Maybe 5 months? How about if a lifelong resident has to get a loan from a natinal bank to start it? Or what if an individual remote owner leaves all operational control to a lifelong resident. Or what if it really was a matter of perception?
posted by NortonDC at 8:51 PM on April 7, 2002

Now Astor Place has Kmart, Barnes & Noble, 3 Starbucks', a Kinko's and a Mcdonald's surrounding it.

I can't say I totally dislike this. When I first moved to Astor Place (down Lafayette actually), it was a dump, and a vaguely dangerous area at that. (This was right around the the waning days of the Dinkins Empire.) By the time I left, the entire area was completely gentrified, active, bright, and safe. Personally, I'd rather have the chains than the :::cough::: "atmosphere."

Starbucks really screwed over the owner of that diner, though. They didn't even tell him what they were doing; they simply approached the owner of the building with an offer, and the landlord yanked the guy's lease the same day. One morning I stopped in there on the way to work for breakfast; the next the doors were locked and there was a sign in the window explaining the details and wishing his customers goodbye, written in a very shaky hand. You could practically see the tear stains on it. It took them less than a month to reopen as a Starbucks, IIRC. I guess it doesn't take long when you're ripping the soul out of a building instead of putting one in.

My friends and I went there a lot during college, since they were open all night. I can still see in my mind those 1950s-style "Cocktails!" paper placemats that they never stopped using on their tables.
posted by aaron at 10:10 PM on April 7, 2002

So, if a person just moved in to a new city for the purpose of opening their own shop there, is it local?

geez Norton, I know you love to argue for the sake of arguing, but try to think of this as a conversation, not a contest. what I meant (and I think you know this) is that some people open businesses with the primary goal of increasing the value of their portfolio, and choose to open a coffee shop because market research has indicated that this is an underexploited area. Other people open businesses because they want to create an environment, because they've always sort of fantasized about how they'd set up their space / menu / etc, because they personally love coffee shops. Obviously they are hoping to make a living, sure they will try to find ways to make it a good living, but the initial motivation is focused on community, creativity, expression - they wanted to make a place that is part of the neighborhood.

I'm not saying there are never gray areas between these two versions, but these days I would have to say, not so much, because most people seriously on the $$ end will go with franchises or won't look into small business at all.

When I first moved to Astor Place (down Lafayette actually), it was a dump, and a vaguely dangerous area at that.

I don't remember Astor being dangerous - people used to be worried going east of 1st ave though..

By the time I left, the entire area was completely gentrified, active, bright, and safe. Personally, I'd rather have the chains than the :::cough::: "atmosphere."

Yeah, well that's the problem with gentrification... everyone has a different point where they want it to stop. I don't want to live in a neighborhood where there's trash all over the street and vacant lots and crappy little delis where all they sell is beer and dusty boxes of cereal ... but I don't want the chain stores or even ultra-hip either. I like the quote unquote bohemian neighborhoods, when interesting people can afford to rent space, and do, and create interesting places. But once they do that, the value of real estate goes up dramatically, and sadly those artsy folk get thrown off the land they rejuvenated (I grew up in SoHo in the '70's & 80's, so...)
posted by mdn at 10:20 PM on April 8, 2002

I don't remember Astor being dangerous - people used to be worried going east of 1st ave though..

Let's just say lots of the stranger St. Mark's critters (of which there were a lot more back then, and often more psychotic) liked to wander a couple blocks west on occasion. It wasn't enough to make it horrible, or I'd never have moved to Lafayette in the first place. But it was enough to make you uncomfortable sometimes.
posted by aaron at 8:44 PM on April 9, 2002

i've always wondered what would happen to the service industry if employers were forced by law to meet miniumum wage

For the record, employers in the US are obligated by law to make up the difference if a server's take-home (hourly pittance + tips) at the end of the shift works out to less than the hourly minimum wage. It's on that "Know Your Rights" poster in the breakroom by the time clock...

..in reality, of course, this never happens, because it would mean tracking everybody's cash tips, which no one (except the IRS) wants to do.

And on another note, if you're waiting tables at a restaurant that requires you to tip out the kitchen staff, you are a sucker and should look for another job. Sorry, messiah, I love the cooks too, and I remember them on their birthdays and Christmas, but I ain't gonna subsidize their wages. Busboys, though, different story.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 6:23 AM on April 10, 2002

Followup story on the cards and how Starbucks uses them to track individual customer behavior.
posted by NortonDC at 9:46 AM on April 12, 2002