The Good Boy
July 1, 2004 9:18 PM Subscribe
"Stop beating up your women because you can't find a job." Strong words from a paragon of the African American community.
It's something that had to come from someone such as him, and not from anyone else, and the sad part is that some will jeer at him as having "gone white" for saying what he is saying. I've seen the same responses from Filipinos harshly critiqued by other Filipinos over their cultural dysfunctionalities. "He's gone American."
posted by brownpau at 9:40 PM on July 1, 2004
posted by brownpau at 9:40 PM on July 1, 2004
Why, exactly, should one feel guilt about anything one's grandparents did?
It's not like he had a say in the matter, or anything.
posted by spazzm at 9:40 PM on July 1, 2004
It's not like he had a say in the matter, or anything.
posted by spazzm at 9:40 PM on July 1, 2004
By the way, just browse the Google News Cloud for Cosby's words if you don't like WaPo's buggy login.
posted by brownpau at 9:41 PM on July 1, 2004
posted by brownpau at 9:41 PM on July 1, 2004
I'm sorry, but I don't get why this is specifically a black thing, as Cosby seems to be making it. It's not like he's saying all the white bitches and gansta's needed to get their shit together also. Where's their tough love? Why does the racial war drum still need to be beaten? Why not the fix-up-your-life drum?
posted by cohappy at 10:38 PM on July 1, 2004
posted by cohappy at 10:38 PM on July 1, 2004
cohappy, face facts. Crime is higher among blacks. Broken homes are higher among blacks. Whites aren't perfect, but as a whole, the behave better than blacks. Call me a racist, I don't care. I have nothing against blacks, but it's their own fault for the shape they are in...just like Cosby said. They've had a generation of complete equality to improve their culture and they haven't.
(And you blacks who don't beat your wives because you don't have a job, I'm not talking about you, so calm down.)
Remember the whole Chris Rock bit about niggers vs. blacks?
posted by MrAnonymous at 11:32 PM on July 1, 2004
(And you blacks who don't beat your wives because you don't have a job, I'm not talking about you, so calm down.)
Remember the whole Chris Rock bit about niggers vs. blacks?
posted by MrAnonymous at 11:32 PM on July 1, 2004
"Call me a racist, I don't care."
Must be 'cause you are one! Thanks for clearing that up.
posted by black8 at 11:59 PM on July 1, 2004
Must be 'cause you are one! Thanks for clearing that up.
posted by black8 at 11:59 PM on July 1, 2004
I have nothing against blacks, but it's their own fault for the shape they are in...
Is it somehow different for a white person? Of course it is their own damn fault, but what does their blackness have to do with it?
posted by cohappy at 12:08 AM on July 2, 2004
Is it somehow different for a white person? Of course it is their own damn fault, but what does their blackness have to do with it?
posted by cohappy at 12:08 AM on July 2, 2004
They've had a generation of complete equality to improve their culture and they haven't.
When Cosby said "let them [whites] talk" he certainly meant you.
The complete equality you are talking about is purely de jure. De facto, a black in this country is worse than anything. Worse than even being a post-9/11 Arab.
As to "improve their culture", hmmm.... would you mind defining "culture" and "improving culture"? And how that has anything to do with what Cosby said (unless of course you see gangsta rap as the only thing that the black culture has produced)?
posted by bokononito at 12:12 AM on July 2, 2004
When Cosby said "let them [whites] talk" he certainly meant you.
The complete equality you are talking about is purely de jure. De facto, a black in this country is worse than anything. Worse than even being a post-9/11 Arab.
As to "improve their culture", hmmm.... would you mind defining "culture" and "improving culture"? And how that has anything to do with what Cosby said (unless of course you see gangsta rap as the only thing that the black culture has produced)?
posted by bokononito at 12:12 AM on July 2, 2004
While you have the freedom and responsibility to talk frankly to your own family members about their difficulties and shortcomings, it would be incredibly inappropriate and arrogant for the neighbors to knock on your door and say exact same things. Those neightbors have their own issues to confront.
I get more than a little irritated, when I hear whites cheering Cosby on. Nothing wrong with agreeing with his options, but keep it to yourself. It's not our place. It's not constructive.
posted by 4easypayments at 12:26 AM on July 2, 2004
I get more than a little irritated, when I hear whites cheering Cosby on. Nothing wrong with agreeing with his options, but keep it to yourself. It's not our place. It's not constructive.
posted by 4easypayments at 12:26 AM on July 2, 2004
*dammit, now I sound like a conservative prick insensitive to the plights of the lower class, which is funny, as I'm a broke-ass college student. Please consider "their own damn fault" as a lame attempt at rhetoric. Continue*
posted by cohappy at 12:28 AM on July 2, 2004
posted by cohappy at 12:28 AM on July 2, 2004
I don't think african american people have it worse than arabic people post september 11th in America. First of all, legal equality is definately different from social equality. You are dealing with (non black) people who see a bunch of black 20 year olds in Cops getting arrested every 4 minutes, and more african american men in jail than in college. It prolongs the stereotype. What is a stereotypical black male to you? Odds are if you're white and don't deal with them much, it could be a negative image. Social inequality is something everyone strives for, but it takes longer than a generation to achieve. I think Bill Cosby was totally right for talking about the parents and how they need to act for their children to learn properly. Blame the parents, I say. This is coming from someone who is not african american, your mileage will vary. Blame the white parents too for their kids not learning proper social behavior. It is so important for parents to be there for their kids and impart social responsibility, and moral values.
"Ignorance is something you can't overcome, but you pass it on down and that's something much worse."
posted by Keyser Soze at 12:35 AM on July 2, 2004
"Ignorance is something you can't overcome, but you pass it on down and that's something much worse."
posted by Keyser Soze at 12:35 AM on July 2, 2004
Exactly.
And if Ward Connerly and Colin Powell are MrAnonymous' idea of what I should aspire to be ( i.e. limped-dicked yes-men for the right), then no thank you - I'll make my own way.
posted by black8 at 12:35 AM on July 2, 2004
And if Ward Connerly and Colin Powell are MrAnonymous' idea of what I should aspire to be ( i.e. limped-dicked yes-men for the right), then no thank you - I'll make my own way.
posted by black8 at 12:35 AM on July 2, 2004
"Social inequality is something everyone strives for, but it takes longer than a generation to achieve."
.....uh.... not what I meant.
posted by Keyser Soze at 12:52 AM on July 2, 2004
.....uh.... not what I meant.
posted by Keyser Soze at 12:52 AM on July 2, 2004
Is it somehow different for a white person? Of course it is their own damn fault, but what does their blackness have to do with it?
I guess I was referring to those who blame whites for the "condition" of black culture (ie the result of slavery, white oppression, et cetera).
And if Ward Connerly and Colin Powell are MrAnonymous' idea of what I should aspire to be...
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't think the kind of blacks I was referring to are the kind who hang out on MeFi. Maybe I'm an ignorant, bull-headed, close-minded conservative, but I'm not a racist.
I get more than a little irritated, when I hear whites cheering Cosby on.
I guess I lose control when I hear someone say something that makes so much sense...especially when I've seen it for so long and can't say it myself (since I'm white).
posted by MrAnonymous at 1:03 AM on July 2, 2004
I guess I was referring to those who blame whites for the "condition" of black culture (ie the result of slavery, white oppression, et cetera).
And if Ward Connerly and Colin Powell are MrAnonymous' idea of what I should aspire to be...
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't think the kind of blacks I was referring to are the kind who hang out on MeFi. Maybe I'm an ignorant, bull-headed, close-minded conservative, but I'm not a racist.
I get more than a little irritated, when I hear whites cheering Cosby on.
I guess I lose control when I hear someone say something that makes so much sense...especially when I've seen it for so long and can't say it myself (since I'm white).
posted by MrAnonymous at 1:03 AM on July 2, 2004
Of course it is their own damn fault, but what does their blackness have to do with it?
Not wanting to buy into this argument too much (me not living in the USA or Canada and all)... but I think MrAnonymous answered your question in his original post.
Not that I agree with his reasoning (me not living in the USA or Canada and all)... but I do find it interesting how logic and basic English comprehension seems to quickly go out the window in these types of arguments.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 1:33 AM on July 2, 2004
Not wanting to buy into this argument too much (me not living in the USA or Canada and all)... but I think MrAnonymous answered your question in his original post.
Not that I agree with his reasoning (me not living in the USA or Canada and all)... but I do find it interesting how logic and basic English comprehension seems to quickly go out the window in these types of arguments.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 1:33 AM on July 2, 2004
Broken homes are higher among blacks. Whites aren't perfect, but as a whole, the behave better than blacks. Call me a racist, I don't care.
You "behave better"? WTF does that mean. This as everything to do with lineage, not race. Poor people have poor children, people who behave a certan way have children who behave the same way. Most, most black people in America do not have these "problems" 60% of African Americans are in the middle class. The vast majority are not poor uneducated people. As some idiots seem to think.
The complete equality you are talking about is purely de jure. De facto, a black in this country is worse than anything. Worse than even being a post-9/11 Arab.
Well, it's certainly better then being a black person in Africa. The lot of a black person in America is not noticeably different then the lot of a white person in America, depending on what you make of it.
While you have the freedom and responsibility to talk frankly to your own family members about their difficulties and shortcomings, it would be incredibly inappropriate and arrogant for the neighbors to knock on your door and say exact same things.
Yes, and I think the biggest problem is white people who seem to believe that all blacks are the same, all blacks are a bunch of thugs and say "it's your problem." When you hear someone like Cosby say it, you know he's only talking about a specific subset. When you hear other people, such as MrAnonymous the racist scumsucker, it sounds like he's talking about all African Americans.
posted by delmoi at 1:39 AM on July 2, 2004
You "behave better"? WTF does that mean. This as everything to do with lineage, not race. Poor people have poor children, people who behave a certan way have children who behave the same way. Most, most black people in America do not have these "problems" 60% of African Americans are in the middle class. The vast majority are not poor uneducated people. As some idiots seem to think.
The complete equality you are talking about is purely de jure. De facto, a black in this country is worse than anything. Worse than even being a post-9/11 Arab.
Well, it's certainly better then being a black person in Africa. The lot of a black person in America is not noticeably different then the lot of a white person in America, depending on what you make of it.
While you have the freedom and responsibility to talk frankly to your own family members about their difficulties and shortcomings, it would be incredibly inappropriate and arrogant for the neighbors to knock on your door and say exact same things.
Yes, and I think the biggest problem is white people who seem to believe that all blacks are the same, all blacks are a bunch of thugs and say "it's your problem." When you hear someone like Cosby say it, you know he's only talking about a specific subset. When you hear other people, such as MrAnonymous the racist scumsucker, it sounds like he's talking about all African Americans.
posted by delmoi at 1:39 AM on July 2, 2004
I didn't think the kind of blacks I was referring to are the kind who hang out on MeFi.
Oh, what 'kind' were you talking about? You certanly didn't make any distinctions in your inital post.
Maybe I'm an ignorant, bull-headed, close-minded conservative, but I'm not a racist.
No, you are quite clearly a racist. The vast majority of people are racist, most people try very hard to hide it from themselves, however. You can try mesuring your racism here
I guess I was referring to those who blame whites for the "condition" of black culture (ie the result of slavery, white oppression, et cetera).
Well, it's quite obvious that if there had not been slavery, or black oppression, these sorts of problems would not have materialized.
posted by delmoi at 1:57 AM on July 2, 2004
Oh, what 'kind' were you talking about? You certanly didn't make any distinctions in your inital post.
Maybe I'm an ignorant, bull-headed, close-minded conservative, but I'm not a racist.
No, you are quite clearly a racist. The vast majority of people are racist, most people try very hard to hide it from themselves, however. You can try mesuring your racism here
I guess I was referring to those who blame whites for the "condition" of black culture (ie the result of slavery, white oppression, et cetera).
Well, it's quite obvious that if there had not been slavery, or black oppression, these sorts of problems would not have materialized.
posted by delmoi at 1:57 AM on July 2, 2004
Cosby is basically saying to his own community: You can't blame anyone else for your own problems. It's up to you to make the most out of whatever hand life has dealt you.
I applaud that sentiment. It's not a racial thing. It applies to any disadvantaged community.
posted by salmacis at 2:07 AM on July 2, 2004
I applaud that sentiment. It's not a racial thing. It applies to any disadvantaged community.
posted by salmacis at 2:07 AM on July 2, 2004
"Eight-year-old, nine-year-old boys have no business teaming up to rape a nine-year or ten-year-old girl. And if it's in that TV set, don't bring into your home, if it's on your record player, don't bring it in your home," he said.
The excerpts of the speech pretty much read as the irritating rantings of an old man. When you're rich, you can take "Hey! Get off my lawn!" to a whole new level.
He's done lots of good things for many people in the past, but he just sounds cross. He sounds like conservatives, actually. The ones who think that saying "Hey, stop being poor already and do things just as I do them!" would cure social ills if people would just listen.
posted by Mayor Curley at 2:28 AM on July 2, 2004
The excerpts of the speech pretty much read as the irritating rantings of an old man. When you're rich, you can take "Hey! Get off my lawn!" to a whole new level.
He's done lots of good things for many people in the past, but he just sounds cross. He sounds like conservatives, actually. The ones who think that saying "Hey, stop being poor already and do things just as I do them!" would cure social ills if people would just listen.
posted by Mayor Curley at 2:28 AM on July 2, 2004
Paraphrase summary: Show some ambition, work hard, clean up your attitude, act nice, quit blaming other people, take responsibility.
I don't care where it came from or if the intended recipient was black, white, or pink-and-purple-polkadotted. That's good advice for us all.
posted by insulglass at 4:10 AM on July 2, 2004
I don't care where it came from or if the intended recipient was black, white, or pink-and-purple-polkadotted. That's good advice for us all.
posted by insulglass at 4:10 AM on July 2, 2004
Well, as MrAnonymous rightly pointed out, blacks have been first class American citizens for exactly one generation. Think about that a second...and take into consideration that we've been in this country since the beginning.
What irritates me the most about posts like MrAnonymous' is there no fucking context. Like slavery and Jim Crow and Racial Profiling never happened.
Perhaps we'd have more millionaires, doctors and "well-behaved" black folks if we'd had the opportunity to freely pursue our dreams, aspirations and potential instead of being treated like chattel at worse and a nuisence at best for much of our history.
To continue to ignore that would to perpetuate gross ignorance.
posted by black8 at 4:21 AM on July 2, 2004
What irritates me the most about posts like MrAnonymous' is there no fucking context. Like slavery and Jim Crow and Racial Profiling never happened.
Perhaps we'd have more millionaires, doctors and "well-behaved" black folks if we'd had the opportunity to freely pursue our dreams, aspirations and potential instead of being treated like chattel at worse and a nuisence at best for much of our history.
To continue to ignore that would to perpetuate gross ignorance.
posted by black8 at 4:21 AM on July 2, 2004
salmacis and insulglass nailed it. Very nicely said. You both get a gold star from me.
Also I think the thrust of what he is saying is more to make the most of the opportunities that you do have, opportunities that were hard-earned in the civil rights movement.
There is still racism in America, and it still makes it harder to grow up black than to grow up white (on average), but that certainly doesn't justify squandering the chances you are given to better yourself - like finishing school, and keeping on the right side of the law. That's true for anyone, really.
posted by beth at 4:42 AM on July 2, 2004
Also I think the thrust of what he is saying is more to make the most of the opportunities that you do have, opportunities that were hard-earned in the civil rights movement.
There is still racism in America, and it still makes it harder to grow up black than to grow up white (on average), but that certainly doesn't justify squandering the chances you are given to better yourself - like finishing school, and keeping on the right side of the law. That's true for anyone, really.
posted by beth at 4:42 AM on July 2, 2004
Beth-here's a news flash for ya: MILLIONS OF US DO THAT EVERY DAY...I don't need any lectures from Bill Cosby on how to work hard and keep my nose clean.
I find it interesting that there's an FPP everytime Mr. Cosby opens his mouth lately. And this stuff about what he said being good advice for anyone, well is Mefi suddenly Poor Richard's Almanac?
posted by black8 at 5:32 AM on July 2, 2004
I find it interesting that there's an FPP everytime Mr. Cosby opens his mouth lately. And this stuff about what he said being good advice for anyone, well is Mefi suddenly Poor Richard's Almanac?
posted by black8 at 5:32 AM on July 2, 2004
demoi:
"Your data suggest little or no automatic preference for African American relative to European American"
Woohoo! Although that test is damn misleading. It has you build up associations between the images of blacks and the negative words, and only at the end swaps them. I'm pretty sure that's not how the Implicit Association test should work. This one constructs a bias, I have no doubt if the test began by association positive words with images of blacks that the results would be swapped.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:37 AM on July 2, 2004
"Your data suggest little or no automatic preference for African American relative to European American"
Woohoo! Although that test is damn misleading. It has you build up associations between the images of blacks and the negative words, and only at the end swaps them. I'm pretty sure that's not how the Implicit Association test should work. This one constructs a bias, I have no doubt if the test began by association positive words with images of blacks that the results would be swapped.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:37 AM on July 2, 2004
And if Ward Connerly and Colin Powell are MrAnonymous' idea of what I should aspire to be ( i.e. limped-dicked yes-men for the right), then no thank you - I'll make my own way.
Heh.
This reminds me of a quote by Sen. Bill Bradley: "We will never come to grips with the problems of our cities...until a white person can talk about the epidemic of minority illegitimacy, drug addiction and homicide without being called a racist."
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:38 AM on July 2, 2004
Heh.
This reminds me of a quote by Sen. Bill Bradley: "We will never come to grips with the problems of our cities...until a white person can talk about the epidemic of minority illegitimacy, drug addiction and homicide without being called a racist."
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:38 AM on July 2, 2004
um. scratch what I just said: "Your result, reported above, is already corrected for the order in which you took the parts of the IAT."
posted by leotrotsky at 5:38 AM on July 2, 2004
posted by leotrotsky at 5:38 AM on July 2, 2004
It's not our place.
Sorry, but that's false, dangerous, divisive, and yes, racist nonsense. It is EVERYONE'S place to participate in social dialogue. Neither skin color nor culture give any special prerogative.
posted by rushmc at 5:39 AM on July 2, 2004
Sorry, but that's false, dangerous, divisive, and yes, racist nonsense. It is EVERYONE'S place to participate in social dialogue. Neither skin color nor culture give any special prerogative.
posted by rushmc at 5:39 AM on July 2, 2004
Yeah, 'cause there's nothing worse than aspiring to be the first black chairman of the joint chiefs AND first black secretary of state. How dare you impune the man's character simply because you disagree with his politics?
posted by leotrotsky at 5:41 AM on July 2, 2004
posted by leotrotsky at 5:41 AM on July 2, 2004
um "." not "?'
posted by leotrotsky at 5:42 AM on July 2, 2004
posted by leotrotsky at 5:42 AM on July 2, 2004
I've said it before, I'll say it again: It's Dubois v/s Booker Washington. We sided with Dubois and tried to create social equality through legal and political means. I think Cosby is just reviving the argument now that its increasing clear that legal/political equality isn't making the progress that Dubois and others like him promised.
Washington's argument, which Cosby is only echoing, is that economic/educational equality that individuals take responsibility for is the basis for equality, not legal/political intervention.
posted by ewkpates at 6:06 AM on July 2, 2004
Washington's argument, which Cosby is only echoing, is that economic/educational equality that individuals take responsibility for is the basis for equality, not legal/political intervention.
posted by ewkpates at 6:06 AM on July 2, 2004
Broken homes are higher among blacks. Whites aren't perfect, but as a whole, the behave better than blacks. Call me a racist, I don't care.
There's a ton of white folks I'd like to introduce you to.
I don't believe in making excuses for stuff like wife-beating and drug use and agree that ultimately it's a matter of personal responsibility how you behave, but it's the height of ignorance to suggest that enviornmental factors don't come into play. But it's not 100% a race thing, it's a poverty thing. The same social pathologies (hard drugs, absent fathers, domestic violence, unemployment) are present in poor white and poor Hispanic neighborhoods. But blacks are disproportionately poor, and that's where the racism comes in.
I will also say that it is also racism of a sort to blame all these pathologies on outside factors and not call out minority people when they do fuck up, because on some level it's kind of like we're saying we don't expect any better from them.
posted by jonmc at 6:14 AM on July 2, 2004
There's a ton of white folks I'd like to introduce you to.
I don't believe in making excuses for stuff like wife-beating and drug use and agree that ultimately it's a matter of personal responsibility how you behave, but it's the height of ignorance to suggest that enviornmental factors don't come into play. But it's not 100% a race thing, it's a poverty thing. The same social pathologies (hard drugs, absent fathers, domestic violence, unemployment) are present in poor white and poor Hispanic neighborhoods. But blacks are disproportionately poor, and that's where the racism comes in.
I will also say that it is also racism of a sort to blame all these pathologies on outside factors and not call out minority people when they do fuck up, because on some level it's kind of like we're saying we don't expect any better from them.
posted by jonmc at 6:14 AM on July 2, 2004
Frome the second link:
"advancement by merit, a single standard of excellence, and individual rather than group rights."
Nothing could be clearer.
posted by hama7 at 6:24 AM on July 2, 2004
"advancement by merit, a single standard of excellence, and individual rather than group rights."
Nothing could be clearer.
posted by hama7 at 6:24 AM on July 2, 2004
Bill Cosby's candor gets press because he's a famous and (heretofore) famously noncontroversial comedian, not because what he's saying is rarely said.
There is a tremendous amount of candor in the media and fora where African Americans speak (or believe themselves to be speaking) to one another rather than to a more mixed audience. "We have to solve our own problems" is a predominant theme in sermons, in a lot politically-minded hip hop, and politicians' stump speeches. It is a major theme, if not the raison d'etre, of the traditionally-black colleges and the traditionally black fraternities and sororities at traditionally white colleges.
That's why the major critique put forward about Cosby hasn't been that what he's saying is untrue, but that he's been washing the dirty laundry in public. The preferred strategy, apparently, is to work both sides of the equation at once. Internally, push for reform and accountability. Externally, push for preferences, increased subsidies, and decreased penalties.
I sometimes listen to Pacifica (WBAI in my case) and the African-American public affairs programming is quite interesting -- the hosts are all black and they're clearly targetting a black audience. There's a palpable tension between candor, and keeping the laundry private from all of the white lefties who are also listening in.
I actually think that the anger against Cosby is not particularly connected with the anger against Colin Powell, Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas. They're attack for actually having dissenting opinions and priorities, while Cosby is attacked for expressing consensus opinions in the wrong places.
posted by MattD at 6:51 AM on July 2, 2004
There is a tremendous amount of candor in the media and fora where African Americans speak (or believe themselves to be speaking) to one another rather than to a more mixed audience. "We have to solve our own problems" is a predominant theme in sermons, in a lot politically-minded hip hop, and politicians' stump speeches. It is a major theme, if not the raison d'etre, of the traditionally-black colleges and the traditionally black fraternities and sororities at traditionally white colleges.
That's why the major critique put forward about Cosby hasn't been that what he's saying is untrue, but that he's been washing the dirty laundry in public. The preferred strategy, apparently, is to work both sides of the equation at once. Internally, push for reform and accountability. Externally, push for preferences, increased subsidies, and decreased penalties.
I sometimes listen to Pacifica (WBAI in my case) and the African-American public affairs programming is quite interesting -- the hosts are all black and they're clearly targetting a black audience. There's a palpable tension between candor, and keeping the laundry private from all of the white lefties who are also listening in.
I actually think that the anger against Cosby is not particularly connected with the anger against Colin Powell, Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas. They're attack for actually having dissenting opinions and priorities, while Cosby is attacked for expressing consensus opinions in the wrong places.
posted by MattD at 6:51 AM on July 2, 2004
Big talk from a man who feeds his starving children chocolate cake for breakfast.
posted by ColdChef at 6:56 AM on July 2, 2004
posted by ColdChef at 6:56 AM on July 2, 2004
and keeping the laundry private from all of the white lefties who are also listening in.
There's the big secret, that there is a fairly large subset of the white left that needs to see black people as helpless victims and themselves as noble saviors. It paternalistic. But the black community and the left in general want the same candidates elected so there's something of a symbiotic (if problematic) relationship going on.
posted by jonmc at 7:00 AM on July 2, 2004
There's the big secret, that there is a fairly large subset of the white left that needs to see black people as helpless victims and themselves as noble saviors. It paternalistic. But the black community and the left in general want the same candidates elected so there's something of a symbiotic (if problematic) relationship going on.
posted by jonmc at 7:00 AM on July 2, 2004
Cosby is basically saying to his own community: You can't blame anyone else for your own problems. It's up to you to make the most out of whatever hand life has dealt you.
Well said. And I think its worth pointing out, that while Cosby's advice is actually good advice for anyone, its not his job to save the world. He can address his message to any group he wants to, and it makes sense that he address it to young, underachieving blacks. Hasn't he pretty much been preaching the same message ever since Fat Albert? He's just being more direct about it now, and I think that's an admirable thing. He doesn't need to stick his neck out like that, but he's trying to make a difference. He has credibility, and at least a few people will listen to him and get their act together. His words will make a difference. That's more than most people can say. I admire him for actively making an effort to be a good role model, while so many other people who achieve a high level of success would rather be anything but.
posted by spilon at 7:12 AM on July 2, 2004
Well said. And I think its worth pointing out, that while Cosby's advice is actually good advice for anyone, its not his job to save the world. He can address his message to any group he wants to, and it makes sense that he address it to young, underachieving blacks. Hasn't he pretty much been preaching the same message ever since Fat Albert? He's just being more direct about it now, and I think that's an admirable thing. He doesn't need to stick his neck out like that, but he's trying to make a difference. He has credibility, and at least a few people will listen to him and get their act together. His words will make a difference. That's more than most people can say. I admire him for actively making an effort to be a good role model, while so many other people who achieve a high level of success would rather be anything but.
posted by spilon at 7:12 AM on July 2, 2004
Talking about race is a cover for not breaking the final taboo of talking about class.
I work in a fortune cookie factory.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 7:19 AM on July 2, 2004
I work in a fortune cookie factory.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 7:19 AM on July 2, 2004
delmoi/black8: Apparently this discussion reveals that I am in fact a racist. I didn't know it, but I guess I am. I will go away now. I apologize if I offended you. That was never my intention. Sorry.
posted by MrAnonymous at 8:19 AM on July 2, 2004
posted by MrAnonymous at 8:19 AM on July 2, 2004
Although rich people definitely don't like to be targeted, I think it's fair to say that the left has vociferously opposed changing the terms of debate from race to class.
It's been particularly amusing in one context I know: the development of allegdly "race neutral" admission policies in place at Berkeley and UCLA. One class-based disadvantage scheme after another would be developed, and then discarded, when the scheme would be modeled and generate too many admissions from among trailer park whites and donut shop asians. They're still working on it, but mainly they're just trying to block and tackle until demographic changes, or Kerry-appointed Supreme Court justices, may allow them to repeal or overturn Prop 209.
posted by MattD at 8:29 AM on July 2, 2004
It's been particularly amusing in one context I know: the development of allegdly "race neutral" admission policies in place at Berkeley and UCLA. One class-based disadvantage scheme after another would be developed, and then discarded, when the scheme would be modeled and generate too many admissions from among trailer park whites and donut shop asians. They're still working on it, but mainly they're just trying to block and tackle until demographic changes, or Kerry-appointed Supreme Court justices, may allow them to repeal or overturn Prop 209.
posted by MattD at 8:29 AM on July 2, 2004
Good point, ewkpates. I think I'll read more about the Dubois/Washington schism.
So I saw Snoop Dogg on the Howard Stern show the other week, and he was talking about this movie he wants to make called SuperN*****. He wants Adam Sandler to write it - it would be a comedy, he says, "because I think the idea of a black superhero is funny." When asked what sorts of things SuperN***** would do, Snoop replied that if a black man was robbing a bank, SN would show up and help the guy, and help him get away from the cops before they got there - cause that would be cool.
I can't decide if Snoop's attitudes are just enured in white oppression (black super heros are funny, ha ha) and he can't help but spread it around, or if SN is really just an urban Robin Hood story born out of the frustration of a disadvantaged populace. Who am I, a white person, to judge? And yet, I don't think Mr. Cosby would be amused.
Historically, does anybody have any good examples of cultures that have successfully made a 180 turnaround? Seems like an extraordinarily difficult task...
posted by junkbox at 9:00 AM on July 2, 2004
So I saw Snoop Dogg on the Howard Stern show the other week, and he was talking about this movie he wants to make called SuperN*****. He wants Adam Sandler to write it - it would be a comedy, he says, "because I think the idea of a black superhero is funny." When asked what sorts of things SuperN***** would do, Snoop replied that if a black man was robbing a bank, SN would show up and help the guy, and help him get away from the cops before they got there - cause that would be cool.
I can't decide if Snoop's attitudes are just enured in white oppression (black super heros are funny, ha ha) and he can't help but spread it around, or if SN is really just an urban Robin Hood story born out of the frustration of a disadvantaged populace. Who am I, a white person, to judge? And yet, I don't think Mr. Cosby would be amused.
Historically, does anybody have any good examples of cultures that have successfully made a 180 turnaround? Seems like an extraordinarily difficult task...
posted by junkbox at 9:00 AM on July 2, 2004
what does their blackness have to do with it?This statement perfectly illustrates the culture of denial against which Cosby was railing.
posted by mischief at 9:26 AM on July 2, 2004
Everyone should read "Up from Slavery", which is a great autobio and history text.
I think we are seeing a "second wave" of racism in this country, where middle class whites have begun to associate the black minority class with poverty, violence, and lack of education. Jump back a hundred years ago, and this wasn't the case in the North.
The rising power of the Hispanic community is going to be a great case study in how minorities handle racism/classism in the US. Look how Hispanics are participating in the political system, for example. Another case is women, who were thought at one time to be less human than any other minority.
posted by ewkpates at 9:59 AM on July 2, 2004
I think we are seeing a "second wave" of racism in this country, where middle class whites have begun to associate the black minority class with poverty, violence, and lack of education. Jump back a hundred years ago, and this wasn't the case in the North.
The rising power of the Hispanic community is going to be a great case study in how minorities handle racism/classism in the US. Look how Hispanics are participating in the political system, for example. Another case is women, who were thought at one time to be less human than any other minority.
posted by ewkpates at 9:59 AM on July 2, 2004
junkbox: Historically, does anybody have any good examples of cultures that have successfully made a 180 turnaround? Seems like an extraordinarily difficult task...
Meiji-era Japan. But that's apples and oranges, really. A better model would study immigration and class mobility patterns in the United States, and perhaps globally as well. How long did it take German, Irish, Scandinavian, Italian, Eastern European, and Asian immigrants to make it out of the ghettos and into the middle class? How many of them are still stuck in chronic poverty, and why? I think it might also make sense to distinguish between the descendants of American slaves, and post-slavery immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean, for it seems to me that the latter would have much more in common with other (self-selected) immigrant groups than the former.
Re Bill Cosby: His recent comments remind me of Debra Dickerson. Not everyone likes her either.
posted by skoosh at 10:10 AM on July 2, 2004
Meiji-era Japan. But that's apples and oranges, really. A better model would study immigration and class mobility patterns in the United States, and perhaps globally as well. How long did it take German, Irish, Scandinavian, Italian, Eastern European, and Asian immigrants to make it out of the ghettos and into the middle class? How many of them are still stuck in chronic poverty, and why? I think it might also make sense to distinguish between the descendants of American slaves, and post-slavery immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean, for it seems to me that the latter would have much more in common with other (self-selected) immigrant groups than the former.
Re Bill Cosby: His recent comments remind me of Debra Dickerson. Not everyone likes her either.
posted by skoosh at 10:10 AM on July 2, 2004
Jump back a hundred years ago, and this wasn't the case in the North.
Racism was a primary cause of the New York Draft Riots during the Civil War, and the Ku Klux Klan had a nationwide resurgence during the 1920s, claimed 3 million members, and "was active in many states, notably Colorado, Oregon, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Alabama, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey."
posted by kirkaracha at 10:29 AM on July 2, 2004
I was just in my hotel a little while ago, on my way here, and I got in the elevator.
I'm getting in the elevator and these two high school white boys tried to get on with me... and I just dove off.
I'm saying, "Y'all ain't killlin' me!"
I am scared of young, white boys. If you white and under 21 I am running for the hills.
~Chris Rock
posted by bwg at 10:39 AM on July 2, 2004
I'm getting in the elevator and these two high school white boys tried to get on with me... and I just dove off.
I'm saying, "Y'all ain't killlin' me!"
I am scared of young, white boys. If you white and under 21 I am running for the hills.
~Chris Rock
posted by bwg at 10:39 AM on July 2, 2004
MrAnonymous, I know that was meant as sarcasm, but your posts were racist.
You may or may not be a racist, but the fact that you don't understand why people perceive a statement like "whites behave better than blacks do" as racist certainly doesn't augur well for your intelligence in this area.
I think the idea that "all 'black' people's problems are caused by 'white' oppression" is about as ridiculous as the idea that "no 'black' people's problems are caused by 'white' oppression".
It's a multi-faceted situation. There are poor communities of all ethnic/racial/linguistic compositions where people's attempts to do well in school, work hard and save money, and reach personal and professional goals are ridiculed by those who see it as "going over to the enemy".
I think that the celebrity and fame of uneducated and anti-intellectual people like Eminem, 50 Cent, and other high-profile lowbrow entertainers doesn't help matters. Note that this group includes both white and black performers.
Hell, the 2000 US Presidential campaign was an embarrassment of pseudo-proletarian posturing, as wealthy Ivy Leaguers George W. Bush and Albert Gore tried to out-blue-collar each other.
I'm not saying that wealthy, educated people have all the answers. But they sure have a hell of a lot more money, skills, and comfort than the poor and uneducated--and, to me, the ways in which the media/corporate world reinforces a vision of the life of an uneducated, unskilled person as a potential paradise is cruel.
Of course, it does sell a hell of a lot of lottery tickets.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:12 PM on July 2, 2004
You may or may not be a racist, but the fact that you don't understand why people perceive a statement like "whites behave better than blacks do" as racist certainly doesn't augur well for your intelligence in this area.
I think the idea that "all 'black' people's problems are caused by 'white' oppression" is about as ridiculous as the idea that "no 'black' people's problems are caused by 'white' oppression".
It's a multi-faceted situation. There are poor communities of all ethnic/racial/linguistic compositions where people's attempts to do well in school, work hard and save money, and reach personal and professional goals are ridiculed by those who see it as "going over to the enemy".
I think that the celebrity and fame of uneducated and anti-intellectual people like Eminem, 50 Cent, and other high-profile lowbrow entertainers doesn't help matters. Note that this group includes both white and black performers.
Hell, the 2000 US Presidential campaign was an embarrassment of pseudo-proletarian posturing, as wealthy Ivy Leaguers George W. Bush and Albert Gore tried to out-blue-collar each other.
I'm not saying that wealthy, educated people have all the answers. But they sure have a hell of a lot more money, skills, and comfort than the poor and uneducated--and, to me, the ways in which the media/corporate world reinforces a vision of the life of an uneducated, unskilled person as a potential paradise is cruel.
Of course, it does sell a hell of a lot of lottery tickets.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:12 PM on July 2, 2004
I dropped by Morehouse's commencement a couple months ago and came away thinking that something must've crawled up Mr. Cosby's ass and died. Seems like something really pissed him off! All it really made me do is start wondering exactly how much experience he has with the black lower class anyway. His speech struck me as quite a bit of stereotype-spouting.
Anyway, as a lower-class black male who is quite often the target of presumptions like Bill's (and some other people in this thread)... oh damn, the lab's closing. Heh. (*saves screed for tomorrow*)
posted by tyro urge at 2:32 PM on July 2, 2004
Anyway, as a lower-class black male who is quite often the target of presumptions like Bill's (and some other people in this thread)... oh damn, the lab's closing. Heh. (*saves screed for tomorrow*)
posted by tyro urge at 2:32 PM on July 2, 2004
Apparently this discussion reveals that I am in fact a racist. I didn't know it, but I guess I am.
I actually read that as non-sarcasm on the first pass. Racism isn't necessarily conscious, Mr. Anonymous; it's the subtle skewing of situations' emotional resonances, of instincts we trust implicitly. Take the Harvard test.
posted by Tlogmer at 4:41 PM on July 2, 2004
I actually read that as non-sarcasm on the first pass. Racism isn't necessarily conscious, Mr. Anonymous; it's the subtle skewing of situations' emotional resonances, of instincts we trust implicitly. Take the Harvard test.
posted by Tlogmer at 4:41 PM on July 2, 2004
Kinda funny that Mr. Cosby is making money from the whole culture he derides all of the time. And i'll stick with what i had to say in the first thread.
posted by amberglow at 5:16 PM on July 2, 2004
posted by amberglow at 5:16 PM on July 2, 2004
this movie he wants to make called SuperN*****
That's gonna be hard to pronounce.
posted by rushmc at 5:22 PM on July 2, 2004
That's gonna be hard to pronounce.
posted by rushmc at 5:22 PM on July 2, 2004
how much experience he has with the black lower class anyway.
He grew up in the projects in North Philly, but as relatives and freinds of mine who grew up in and around projects have said projects were different places then. So maybe it's a generational thing.
posted by jonmc at 7:15 PM on July 2, 2004
He grew up in the projects in North Philly, but as relatives and freinds of mine who grew up in and around projects have said projects were different places then. So maybe it's a generational thing.
posted by jonmc at 7:15 PM on July 2, 2004
No, tyro urge, your English is pretty good as far as I can tell, and I get the impression you went to or are in college.
posted by shoos at 2:12 AM on July 3, 2004
posted by shoos at 2:12 AM on July 3, 2004
"It's a multi-faceted situation. There are poor communities of all ethnic/racial/linguistic compositions where people's attempts to do well in school, work hard and save money, and reach personal and professional goals are ridiculed by those who see it as "going over to the enemy"."
I have been in a watered down, white situation like that. Even so, I agree. I have to say that agreeing with the latter statement is walking on eggshells in respect to what I have experienced. Good thread. This is educational for someone who doesn't experience arguments like this.
posted by Keyser Soze at 3:29 AM on July 3, 2004
I have been in a watered down, white situation like that. Even so, I agree. I have to say that agreeing with the latter statement is walking on eggshells in respect to what I have experienced. Good thread. This is educational for someone who doesn't experience arguments like this.
posted by Keyser Soze at 3:29 AM on July 3, 2004
I get more than a little irritated, when I hear whites cheering Cosby on. Nothing wrong with agreeing with his options, but keep it to yourself. It's not our place. It's not constructive.
Absolutely not. This attitude is segragationist and wrong. We all live in a society, if one particular, sector of society is not working than society itself isnt working. It is indeed very difficult to discuss issues of race without automatically pushing buttons. The PC movement was well-intended, but just changing the words used for public discourse does not change attitudes. We all have to live and work together, and we should be working towards the common good.
If someone living next door to you is beating the hell out of their family, or sexually abusing them should you tolerate it because its none of your business? Would you let somebody just hang out in front of your house or apartment building and just kill every 10th person that walked by, as long as they promised not to kiill you?
Cosbys advice was good advice in general, it doesnt matter what color you are. I have come a long long way from what I was born into, I got no "white bonus" or automatic breaks; everything I have done has been a result of my own initiative and with help from my family, which is how we all advanced ourselves. I dont belong to a "white community", there is no identification of the sort, most of my friends growing up were white, many of them have committed stupid crimes in the name of being a teenager. I dont have a "white identity" (though i cant dance for shit), because I think about my thoughts and my abilities, not my skin color. I cant relate to all the tools in an office job, not because they are white, but because they are lame, which is the same reason I cant watch friends, it is a world far beyond me.
There are plenty of illiterate, broke-ass, wife-beating, car-stereo stealing white people out there, who blame immigrants for taking jobs, blacks for being thugs, mexicans for being lazy, and most of that is based purely on ignorance. For believing what your TV tells you rather than making their own decisions.
If I were to formulate a prejudice based on the race of the people who had wronged me in some way (and its about any skin color you can name), whites would be at the top of my list, by a LONG shot, and I think that would be true for anyone from a fairly racially homogenous area, but its easier to place blame on people you dont know, or have had one bad experience with than it is to really examine your own prejudices.
Race-relations are a complex issue, and there is no "right" side to be on, especially in a political context. Many of the white people I know clench up with the first mention of race, and spend so much time trying to be innofensive towards other white people regarding their views that they are incapable of cutting through the bullshit and seeing that they are just talking to other people. The majority of time I hear someone say "African-American", there is a hesitant pause, I have been called a racist for saying "mexican" in a context other than describing a restaurant.
But it works both ways: the positive aspects of "blackness": creativity, musical ability, a strong survival instinct, and an emphasis on family and community are not properties of some special gene tied to melanin, they are prime examples of necessity being the mother of invention. Making do with what you got because you dont have a choice, which is a universal human property. In the U.S. black being the default underclass for so long it has become a sort of emergent property, and one easily ascribable to race, but there are always exceptions. Rich people dont need community, or music aptitude, or a million different ways to cook beans and rice, because they have money, and can hire someone to do it for them.
For what its worth:
Your data suggest a slight automatic preference for African American relative to European American
...and I am white as hell. I have trouble sleeping at night because my skin glows in the dark. But I guess I am a racist towards white people.
posted by lkc at 4:42 AM on July 3, 2004
Damn holiday weekends... I have to wait until Tuesday?
I've been able to speak and write perfect English since childhood, shoos, but I generally choose not to speak the way I write. It's called code switching and it's pretty common: usually a conscious choice but sometimes it just slips out. The first impression I give off in person might be very different if you were prone to making snap judgements.
The library is minutes from closing-- again-- but I found this article while browsing through an argument about Cosby on another site. Hopefully I'll get one more pass at this thread before it falls off the front page.
posted by tyro urge at 2:47 PM on July 3, 2004
I've been able to speak and write perfect English since childhood, shoos, but I generally choose not to speak the way I write. It's called code switching and it's pretty common: usually a conscious choice but sometimes it just slips out. The first impression I give off in person might be very different if you were prone to making snap judgements.
The library is minutes from closing-- again-- but I found this article while browsing through an argument about Cosby on another site. Hopefully I'll get one more pass at this thread before it falls off the front page.
posted by tyro urge at 2:47 PM on July 3, 2004
I have come a long long way from what I was born into, I got no "white bonus" or automatic breaks
Self-innocence? Self-ignorance?
The effect of race is very subtle, lkc. While nobody may be handing out passes to you on the basis of your skin color, it does subtly effect how the world interacts with you. This is certainly no reflection of how you interact with the world, but how it choses to see you.
Appareance is a subtle motivator, skin color included. I've been astonished how minor changes in my own appearance -- clothing, hair, etc -- have affected the demeanor of others around me despite the fact that my basic internals haven't changed much from one day to the next.
This isn't the first time Cos has gone off on this subject: I recall him going off on the "hat on backwards, walking the hip walk, talking the hip talk" ca. '92 and thinking at the time how out-of-touch he was. His "pull yourself up" message is good, but his delivery is less than positive.
It's great to bitch about the social evils plaguing us, something else to encourage forward motion. What was Cos thinking -- that those he decries would fall to their knees and say "Thank you Lord for providing us with Bill Cosby, for surely he has shown us the error of our ways!"
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:59 PM on July 6, 2004
Self-innocence? Self-ignorance?
The effect of race is very subtle, lkc. While nobody may be handing out passes to you on the basis of your skin color, it does subtly effect how the world interacts with you. This is certainly no reflection of how you interact with the world, but how it choses to see you.
Appareance is a subtle motivator, skin color included. I've been astonished how minor changes in my own appearance -- clothing, hair, etc -- have affected the demeanor of others around me despite the fact that my basic internals haven't changed much from one day to the next.
This isn't the first time Cos has gone off on this subject: I recall him going off on the "hat on backwards, walking the hip walk, talking the hip talk" ca. '92 and thinking at the time how out-of-touch he was. His "pull yourself up" message is good, but his delivery is less than positive.
It's great to bitch about the social evils plaguing us, something else to encourage forward motion. What was Cos thinking -- that those he decries would fall to their knees and say "Thank you Lord for providing us with Bill Cosby, for surely he has shown us the error of our ways!"
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:59 PM on July 6, 2004
ewkpates - whites have begun to associate the black minority class with poverty, violence, and lack of education.
Part of Cosby's point is that he sees many blacks associating those things with blackness, not that whites are making those associations.
posted by NortonDC at 5:34 PM on July 6, 2004
Part of Cosby's point is that he sees many blacks associating those things with blackness, not that whites are making those associations.
posted by NortonDC at 5:34 PM on July 6, 2004
The effect of race is very subtle, lkc. While nobody may be handing out passes to you on the basis of your skin color, it does subtly effect how the world interacts with you. This is certainly no reflection of how you interact with the world, but how it choses to see you.
I understand that. Part of the point was that I came from an almost exclusively white background. In that sense, I dont think race was really an issue in my early development. Once I was about 16 I transferred out of my high school to a community college in seattle where there was quite a bit of diversity. Most of what got me where I am was my desire to keep moving forward. Ditto the rest of my family.
Believe me, I know people judge on appearance, I have had a healthy dose of that my entire life. Right now I live in Tokyo and have daily encounters good and bad that pretty much revolve around the fact that I am not japanese, rather than who I actually am.
Race can be a subtle issue, and one that is very difficult. I have a friend who is indian who claims race every time he doesnt get a job, or calls people racist everytime he has a bad experience with someone. While I wont say that that doesnt happen, he doesnt include the possiblity that he can be an obnoxious prick, and that not everyone gets along. It never even occurs to him that his personality might be part of the equation, and he has had a fairly privileged upbringing.
Everybody is born with strengths and weaknessess, advantages and disadvantages. Race is one, unfortunately, as is gender, socioeconomic status, nationality, intelligence, health, and the general environment you are born into. Most people have disadvantages. How do you balance being white and physically repulsive or black and stunningly beautiful? Brilliant and poor, or dumb and rich? Everyone has obstacles and opportunities, and people are ultimately responsible for their own actions, even if they are mostly a product of their environment.
Cosby sounds like a crazy old man, sure. "Hey you kids, get off my lawn with your damn baggy pants and your pagers". I think my point still stands that what he is saying is not specific to black people even though he is directing it towards black people.
It's great to bitch about the social evils plaguing us, something else to encourage forward motion.
Agreed. So what have you done lately to move society forward other than bitch about other peoples bitching?
I cant say I have done much, honestly. Its easy to complain and criticize, especially in a consumer-driven service economy. But if one crazy old guy shouting gets a couple people to think about what they are doing and change for the better, I dont think its a bad thing. If conservatives are applauding this in an inappropriate way because it makes some point of theirs, even if its not Cosby's, I dont think there is much to be done about that. They will find some other way to back up their point, and the people listening to them are looking for justifications of their ideas, not some essential truth. They dont have one, they will find another.
The easiest way to move forward is to help yourself, and your friends, and your family, and not intentionally hurt other people in the process. Being an activist is fine, but your home life is something everyone can work on.
posted by lkc at 11:33 PM on July 8, 2004
"Yeah, 'cause there's nothing worse than aspiring to be the first black chairman of the joint chiefs AND first black secretary of state. How dare you impune the man's character simply because you disagree with his politics?"
I dare. 'Cause if you're brilliant and sqaunder yr brilliance by continuing to work for stupid people, what does that make you? And impugning a man's character due to his politics happens every day leotrotsky, or had you not noticed this was an election year?
When I see Steve Martin (that paragon of the European American community) deliver a rant on saggy-assed poor whites, I'll look forward to the FPP and spirited discussion here on Mefi.
Sheesh.
posted by black8 at 1:09 AM on July 9, 2004
I dare. 'Cause if you're brilliant and sqaunder yr brilliance by continuing to work for stupid people, what does that make you? And impugning a man's character due to his politics happens every day leotrotsky, or had you not noticed this was an election year?
When I see Steve Martin (that paragon of the European American community) deliver a rant on saggy-assed poor whites, I'll look forward to the FPP and spirited discussion here on Mefi.
Sheesh.
posted by black8 at 1:09 AM on July 9, 2004
black8 - When I see Steve Martin (that paragon of the European American community) deliver a rant on saggy-assed poor whites...
What does that perspective have to say about Chris Rock delivering a rant on how this country is "filled up with broke-ass white people. Broke-ass, livin' in a trailer home, eatin' mayonnaise sandwiches, fucking their sister, listening to John Cougar Mellencamp records..."
posted by NortonDC at 5:43 AM on July 9, 2004
What does that perspective have to say about Chris Rock delivering a rant on how this country is "filled up with broke-ass white people. Broke-ass, livin' in a trailer home, eatin' mayonnaise sandwiches, fucking their sister, listening to John Cougar Mellencamp records..."
posted by NortonDC at 5:43 AM on July 9, 2004
I would love to see Steve Martin deliver a rant on saggy-assed whites. But Chris Rock? Nah, that's passe for him.
posted by shoos at 5:58 AM on July 17, 2004
posted by shoos at 5:58 AM on July 17, 2004
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posted by dhoyt at 9:24 PM on July 1, 2004