Jerry apologizes again!
September 17, 2001 8:01 PM   Subscribe

Jerry apologizes again! It's not the first time that Falwell has gone off and made himself look like an idiot.
posted by Lynsey (30 comments total)
 
From the linked article:

"Thomas Road Baptist Church, .....also gathered a huge collection of tools...I assisted in this particuar effort by donating myself, since I am the Biggest Tool on Earth."

Okay, I made that last part up. But he is a tool.
posted by Optamystic at 8:21 PM on September 17, 2001


Not much of an apology. He just says that gays had nothing to do with the bombing, no apology for the insane accusation that they have something to do with it in a moral sense.
posted by stoneegg21 at 8:21 PM on September 17, 2001


On Friday, September 14th, President Bush invited me to join him, his family and administration and 3,000 others to the National Cathedral for a special Day of Prayer and Remembrance, where we asked God for His comfort, protection and wisdom.

Okay, I'm officially back to despising Bush. It is absolutely unconscionable for him to have invited this hypocritical bigot to ANYTHING just days after his loathsome remarks. I don't care HOW much money he brought to his campaign.

I just love the way Falwell says about 10 times that he was "only" talking to an audience of Christians, the implication clearly being that he shouldn't be held accountable or expected to talk sense when he was just pandering to the nutballs! I mean, it's not like he was talking to the NORMAL media, where he would expect to be held accountable for his words/ideas--"c'mon, guys, quit pickin' on me...we all know how this works? right, guys? right?"
posted by rushmc at 8:21 PM on September 17, 2001


Larry Flynt was right.
posted by BarneyFifesBullet at 8:23 PM on September 17, 2001


"Ah'm still a bigot, but ah apologize that anyone noticed." - Jerry

buttwipe.
posted by ZachsMind at 8:28 PM on September 17, 2001


I was sharing my burden for revival in America on a Christian TV program, intending to speak to a Christian audience from a theological perspective about the need for national repentance.

You guys have to take that into account. From a Christian standpoint, death and tragedy are the consequences of sin.

In retrospect, I should have mentioned the national sins without mentioning the organizations and persons by name.

True, and a good apology. It was no time to point fingers at such places.

"... invited this hypocritical bigot"

How is he a hypocrite?

Bigot: "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices." Just sounds to me like a nasty anti-Christian way of saying "he's a hard-core Christian."

... it's not like he was talking to the NORMAL media, where he would expect to be held accountable for his words/ideas...

Oh, he knows he's accountable. He didn't apologize for his theology of sin causing such things, he apologized for his insensitivity (timing).
posted by aaronshaf at 8:33 PM on September 17, 2001


You're right, aaronshaf. I AM anti-Christian. I'm anti- ANYONE and ANY group with values and ethics that are illogical, fanatical, and anti-human. This fool may dance at the extreme end of the Christian spectrum, but it's only a question of degree, not kind. Whether you look at any particular sect's specific splinter theology, or confine yourself simply to the words printed in the Bible, it's a vile philosophy, and I want no part of it. Nor any part of any further discussion on this topic with you. It's making me sick.
posted by rushmc at 8:46 PM on September 17, 2001


You guys have to take that into account. From a Christian standpoint, death and tragedy are the consequences of sin.

And sin is the consequence on a supposedly omnipotent God's inability to see that his creation was going to run amuck about thirty seconds after it rolled off the assembly line. So which is it?

A.)"Evil God", getting his laughs at all the misery he has wrought, or

B.)"God as Homer Simpson", with the entire universe as Springfield, and all of Creation suffering for his stupidity and clumsiness

Either way, it's a shitty deal.
posted by Optamystic at 8:49 PM on September 17, 2001


>>You guys have to take that into account. From a Christian standpoint, death and tragedy are the consequences of sin.<<

Of course, isn't it also a point of Christian theology that all of us (including Mr. Falwell) tainted by sin? Of course, other Christians point out that Falwell is a bit of a hypocrite by singling out gays and feminists, while cozying up to Robertson's substantial personal wealth.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 8:59 PM on September 17, 2001


I continue to stand with option (C) -- Good God who, though his purposes may be unclear, is still too good to be unkind, too wise to be mistaken, and too loving not to stand with us in tragedy and pain. I believe that He can turn even the worst disaster to the cause of an ultimate good.

(And as a Christian, I am not represented by Falwell, apologetic or otherwise.)
posted by brownpau at 9:01 PM on September 17, 2001


Good God who, though his purposes may be unclear, is still too good to be unkind, too wise to be mistaken, and too loving not to stand with us in tragedy and pain.

I want some of what YOU'RE smoking.

Wait. No, I don't.
posted by rushmc at 9:07 PM on September 17, 2001


You're right, aaronshaf. I AM anti-Christian. I'm anti- ANYONE and ANY group with values and ethics that are illogical, fanatical, and anti-human.

Galatians 5:22-23
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control..."

Doesn't sound so nasty to me. If you're going to attack the religion, attack its doctrine, not its followers. After all, men are sinful.

Optamystic, in your ideal universe, you being a god, what plan would you have for your creations? Beings with free-will, or machines? Free-will ... it means choosing Right or Wrong. God or Self. Would you rather have humans that love voluntarily or not?

I'll take C too.
posted by aaronshaf at 9:18 PM on September 17, 2001


I think that this is the key statement: My mistake on the "700 Club" was doing this at the time I did it, on television, where a secular media and audience were also listening.

In other words, "I said what I believe, but I made the mistake of letting y'all hear it."
posted by Steven Den Beste at 9:19 PM on September 17, 2001


Galatians 5:22-23
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control..."

Matthew 7:17 says that you can judge a tree by the fruit it bears. That means that either most of those who call themselves Christians through history haven't really been Christians or the whole apparatus is diseased.

Doesn't sound so nasty to me. If you're going to attack the religion, attack its doctrine, not its followers.

Why is it that the acts of those following the religion are all those who are not part of the religion have to judge it by, then?

After all, men are sinful.

Glad to hear the women are exempted. Or is the whole thing their fault? I can't remember the doctrine these days...

Optamystic, in your ideal universe, you being a god, what plan would you have for your creations? Beings with free-will, or machines? Free-will ... it means choosing Right or Wrong. God or Self. Would you rather have humans that love voluntarily or not?

Sorry to cut in for you, Optamystic, but there is a clear tension between original sin and free will. Either we are born with inherent sin that taints our souls or we aren't; either God is omniscient and omnipotent or we have free will. If God knew me before I was born (Jeremiah 1) then he knew I'd be an unbeliever, and since he made me he made me this way. Thus God condemned me to hell before I even drew a breath. Alternately he (sic) isn't omniscient and omnipotent.

I, for one, apologize for getting in on this debate (again), but certain members have been really in our face on the proselytization front recently and I am getting pretty tired of it. If you want to push your sectarian dogma do it through email.
posted by norm at 9:43 PM on September 17, 2001


"Why is it that the acts of those following the religion are all those who are not part of the religion have to judge it by, then?"

By that, Islam is false because of Laden.

Why? Because the very judgement of Christians is one of standards that come from Christian doctrine. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy. Jesus hated it, you do, and so do I. But you can't attack Christianity itself because of the poor examples some men make of it.

"I said what I believe, but I made the mistake of letting y'all hear it."

I think so, pretty much. Yep. People can't stomach something like that in a time like this.
posted by aaronshaf at 9:53 PM on September 17, 2001


People can't stomach something like that in a time like this

People can't and shouldn't ever have to stomach statements such as the ones made by Fallwell and Robertson, regardless of timing.

Three years from now, I don't want to hear those ridiculous statements. They're false statements. The actions of the ACLU, gays, lesbians, and abortions did not cause planes to crash into buildings and thousands to die. It's a ridiculous thing to say, regardless of the timing between when it was said and when the events occured.

Has nothing in the past week taught us lessons about the perils of religious fundamentalism? Hello?
posted by mathowie at 10:06 PM on September 17, 2001


I've just been boiling with rage since reading what Robertson & Falwell said. Haven't been able to write coherently about it. Those Fuckers. Those God Damned Fuckers. How dare they. How dare they have the audacity to speak this way before an audience they KNOW is looking to them for guidance and comfort. Those Opportunistic Bastards, leveraging this tragedy to further their stance against what they see as unclean. Fuck their interpretation of Christ. These are mean-spirited small-minded men, who have an audience of followers (preaching to the converted) I'm sorry to say.

I am an atheist, yet my Mother is not. I know there are many more classy and genuinely loving Christians than there are not, but I am so livid that Robertson & Falwell can claim to speak for them in any way. There has got to be a very special place in Hell for those who make a lifestyle out of judging and condemning in the name of love.
posted by kokogiak at 10:52 PM on September 17, 2001


I don't believe Falwell speaks for all Christians. I don't believe it's just a matter of degree. Although I'm a gay agnostic, I know enough Christians who are truly good-hearted, forgiving, and tolerant that I'd never confuse Falwellism with most of Christian belief.

... that being said, though - no matter what rhetorical spin he puts on it, you just can't get away from the fact that if you believe God would have protected us if not for the "sins" of gays, the ACLU, and feminists, you're saying that they're responsible. It doesn't matter if you go back and say "only the terrorists are responsible." As long as you maintain that God would have protected us but for the existence of some people, you're saying those people are responsible.

And it's a convenient way of saying that gays and feminists who died or were injured deserved what they got. After all, if they hadn't been around, none of it would have happened.

Turns my stomach.
posted by Chanther at 12:03 AM on September 18, 2001


Don't blame the doctrine. Blame its followers. And I'm willing to include myself in that cuz God knows I ain't that good a follower.

"You guys have to take that into account. From a Christian standpoint, death and tragedy are the consequences of sin.."

No. I don't. In fact this is one of the many myths of Christianity that intolerants like Falwell perpetuate.

Death and tragedy are not the consequences of sin. Death doesn't happen just to the ungodly. Everybody dies. Christianity teaches that those whose sins have been washed by J.C.'s blood will have eternal spiritual life, but physical death is still imminent. Tragedy can happen to anyone. Whether or not you followed the ten commandments that day doesn't save you from tragedy if it happens to you. Tragedy is random. It's not an act of God.

I AM a Christian, but I dismiss any denomination of religion for precisely these reasons of myth. And before I go into a tirade about what I do believe I'll delete it before I even type it out. I'm aware that some people think what I believe may be myth. That's your choice and I applaud that. What I do with my faith is my business.

I can understand and strongly empathize with aetheists and others who hate Christianity. It frustrates me that they do, but I understand why. So many Christians get the details messed up. Their interpretation of the scriptures and their misunderstanding of the spirit of the word in favor of literal interpretations is what gets other people's dander up.

God did not have anything to do with what happened last Tuesday. He has allowed us all free will. If one of us chooses to kill five thousand others, it's not God's fault, and it's not the fault of those who survive it. It's the fault of the bastards who chose to kill. Those who choose hate over love are NOT choosing God.

Here's something to strongly consider. We are ALL human beings. That INCLUDES the zealots that flew those planes into the buildings. They were not monsters. They were human beings who chose to do monstrous things. We try to make it "us vs. them" at our peril. Everyone is capable of hate. Everyone has the free will to choose to allow that hate to consume them. Everyone. And that includes Falwell.

I don't care if Falwell thought he was just talking to "his" people, and didn't want his words "taken out of context." Even making a vague indication that homosexuality has anything to do with this attack on America by sociopathic zealots is just spreading more hate. We've had enough of that the last two thousand years.
posted by ZachsMind at 12:12 AM on September 18, 2001


Well said, Zach. My entire family, (myself excepted) is Christian. They have felt the positive touch of God in their lives, and I admire their dedication to His name. Two of my four brothers are missionaries, supported by Billy Graham's charitable Samaritan's Purse organization.

These organizations are staffed with good people who do good deeds. Both Billy and Franklin Graham have shown restraint and wisdom when speaking about this tragedy. Falwell's statements are illustrative of the dangers that come with fundamentalism of any stripe. He is an ignorant demagogue, and I believe that his statements will lead to his further marginalization from American political establishment, and thankfully, from the American religious mainstream.
posted by Optamystic at 3:10 AM on September 18, 2001


God wouldn't have protected anybody. If there is a god, he acts independently and with indifference to human desires. Anyone who professes to follow a god would (logically, but that's of course not always the case) accept it's decisions.

Fate and luck are indistinguishable from the human perspective.

but there is a clear tension between original sin and free will.
Not that it's important, but just for clarification's sake, there are many denominations that do not recognize the idea of original sin.
posted by sonofsamiam at 6:24 AM on September 18, 2001


If you're going to attack the religion, attack its doctrine, not its followers.

Okay.

****************************
Exodus 12:29: "Now it came about at midnight that the Lord struck all the first-born in the land of Egypt, from the first-born of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the first-born of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the first-born of cattle."

Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do."

Exodus 21:17: "And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." (Also Leviticus 20:9)

Exodus 22:18: "You shall not allow a sorceress to live."

Exodus 22:29: "You shall not delay the offering from your harvest and your vintage. The first-born of your sons you shall give to me."

Exodus 31:15: "For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death."

Exodus 32:27: "Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, 'Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.'"

Leviticus 19:19: "You are to keep My statues. You shall not breed together two kinds of cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment up you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Leviticus 19:27: "You shall not round off the side growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard."

Leviticus 20:18: "If there is a man who lies with a menstrous woman and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare her flow, and she has exposed the flow of her blood; thus both of them shall be cut off from among their people."

Leviticus 25:44: "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have--you may acquire male and female slaves from the nations that are around you."

Numbers 31:17-18: "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves."

Deuteronomy 22:20-21: "But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death."

Deuteronomy 23:1: "No one who is emasculated, or has his male organ cut off, shall enter the assembly of the Lord."

Deuteronomy 28:53: "Then you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy shall oppress you." (See also Deuteronomy 26:29, Jeremiah 19:9, Ezekiel 5:10)

1 Samuel 15:3: "Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

2 Samuel 24, 1 Chronicles 21: God causes a pestilence to kill seventy thousand people because David took a census.

2 Kings 2:23-24: God causes 42 little kids to be torn apart by bears merely because they make fun of his prophet Elisha's bald head.

Psalms 137:9: "How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock."

Isaiah 45:7: "The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these."

Hosea 13:16: "Samaria will be held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, their little ones will be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women will be ripped open."

Matthew 10:34-36: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household."

Luke 6:30: "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back."

Luke 14:26: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."

Acts 5:1-11: A Christian couple are struck dead when they don't give quite all of their money to Peter for the church.

1 Corinthians 6:1: "Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?"

1 Corinthians 11:5: "But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved."

1 Corinthians 11:14: "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?"

1 Corinthians 14:34: "Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says."

Galatians 5:2: "Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you."

1 Timothy 2:12: "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

***********************

I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point. You may find these values laudable and worthy of adoption and celebration; I find them heinous. Old Testament and New are represented.
posted by rushmc at 6:37 AM on September 18, 2001


Deuteronomy 23:1: "No one who is emasculated, or has his male organ cut off, shall enter the assembly of the Lord."

Damn that farm accident!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:27 AM on September 18, 2001


You guys have to take that into account. From a Christian standpoint, death and tragedy are the consequences of sin.

absolutely not! This may be fallwell's opinion, but it's not Christian doctrine.

And Rushmc, you may disagree with teachings of christianity, that's fine. But If you're seriously interested in understanding what those teachings mean, proof-texting is not the best way to go about it. If you're at all interested in accurately representing these passages, you have to read them in context with not only the verses directly before and after, but the message of the whole bible. And I don't think that this forum is adequate for that kind of debate.
If you just throw out verses based on your pre-conceived agenda of what christians believe, you're no better than people who are condemning all muslims for allegedly believing in a religion that "teaches terrorism" (which it doesn't by the way -- but you could also pull out decontextualized verses from the qur'an to support that argument if you believed it)

Yes, I am a christian, and I absolutely despise the kind of things that people like falwell and robertson teach and I completely disassociate myself from the so-called "religious right".
posted by jnthnjng at 7:55 AM on September 18, 2001


Note: Levitical law no longer applies. Jesus fulfilled it!

It's kind of strange to see Christians saying that death isn't the result of sin. Remember Adam and Eve? Physical death is the result of our sin.

Romans 5:11-13 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned..."

Resurrection is only possible through Jesus Christ.

Galatians 5:2: "Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you."

Right! But read on! Still Christ will be offered to all men, circumcised or not!

1 Timothy 2:12: "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."
and
[All your quotes from 1 Corinthians]

Remember the churches the letters were written to. Yes, Christianity supports a headship of the man in marriage. Also, this is not Jesus speaking, this is Paul. Remember, Christ isn't about "do's and do not's", but about a personal relationship filled with love. Still, all this wisdom given by Paul gives us a sense of a Godly attitude Christians must take about things.

Acts 5:1-11: A Christian couple are struck dead when they don't give quite all of their money to Peter for the church.

Absolutely. God has every right to, everyone of us.

Luke 14:26: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."

Study this one! It's a neat one to understand. "The Four Loves" by C.S. Lewis goes into detail. It's not "hating" in the modern sense, but loving both, with a primary love to God. As in... if it came down to choose your father or God, you'd choose God.

Luke 6:30: "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back."

What's wrong with this one?

Matthew 10:34-36: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household."

"When it all comes down" we all have to choose: the world, or Jesus. This will cause separation.

Did I miss any? As for your OT scriptures, like I said, Levitical law no longer applies. Jesus fulfilled it! And yes, God was in the business of punishing sinners. It's called righteous judgement. (Progeny was the most valued thing to most at that time.) God's standard is perfection, and he has every right to demand it.

Fortunately, by the grace of God we have Jesus Christ, with whom we no longer have to offer up "sacrifices" anymore. (However, our lives, our bodies, our actions and offered still as sacrifices!)
posted by aaronshaf at 9:03 AM on September 18, 2001


Just a link to another Christian Perspective.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:04 AM on September 18, 2001


*and -> are
posted by aaronshaf at 9:05 AM on September 18, 2001


Leviticus no longer applies? Great! I'll point that out the next time I see one of the local fundamentalists preaching under a sign with quotations from...Leviticus.
posted by thomas j wise at 10:15 AM on September 18, 2001


It's not "hating" in the modern sense, but loving both...

Ah, I see. Hate is love. I should have known.

Your responses prove my point better than I ever could. I am against the way you think with the entirety of my being.
posted by rushmc at 4:36 PM on September 18, 2001


Luke 6:30: "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back."

What's wrong with this one?


Dibs on his car!!
posted by boaz at 4:49 PM on September 18, 2001


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