Bin laden tape released.
December 13, 2001 8:18 AM Subscribe
Bin laden tape released. I'm watching it on CNN now....
It seems they needed the extra couple days to fix the make up on the Bin Laden look-alike and get the rest of the grainy video special effects done. I must say that he looks a little on the heavy side, though, given the pictures we're used to seeing of him. I just just hope they got the translation all correct, although the background noise and (inaudible) moments make for some easy outs in that area as well.
posted by almostcool at 8:31 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by almostcool at 8:31 AM on December 13, 2001
Watching raw footage over at the Washington Post. Doesn't do a bit of good without translation. Thought I was watching Eraserhead II or something there for a bit at the beginning. Now some kids are singing the backwards tape part of "Purple Rain" that comes after "Computer Blue," if I remember correctly.
posted by raysmj at 8:32 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by raysmj at 8:32 AM on December 13, 2001
Someone will swear this is another government cover-up and Bin Laden is a patsy. SIGH
posted by Macboy at 8:50 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by Macboy at 8:50 AM on December 13, 2001
I don't know who or what to believe anymore. I really don't.
posted by dataport72 at 9:01 AM on December 13, 2001
It's funny, but it's also sad. It's nothing new. Misinformation works on world culture much like brushfires. It is ultimately what people like Robert Anton Wilson preach: reality is what you can get away with.
For example, there may still be people on this planet who believe Apollo 13 was a hoax and a government cover-up and that the world is in fact flat. Despite all the scientific proof to the contrary, some maintain steadfast opposition and still others follow like sheep. Ignorance is not bliss. It's fertile soil for people like Bin Laden.
This tape is terrible quality, and poorly recorded. It makes America's Funniest Videos look like Emmy material. There's so many holes here. It will be easy for people to claim that this material is made up by the government. In fact, soon after the attack, there's been reports that high ranking government officials communicated with people in Hollywood. Some will no doubt claim that what was really going on then was a gov't/Hollywood conspiracy to create this tape. Probably some of the same people who still maintain the foolish notion that there were no jewish people in the WTC when it fell, because they all somehow had prior warning. Information is power, and misinformation is a potentially deadly weapon.
A few years ago a hoax video about an alien autopsy circulated which looked authentic enough to fool a lot of people. In a world where news events start looking like scenes from action movies instead of the other way around, nowadays the public as a whole doesn't know what to believe.
posted by ZachsMind at 9:16 AM on December 13, 2001
For example, there may still be people on this planet who believe Apollo 13 was a hoax and a government cover-up and that the world is in fact flat. Despite all the scientific proof to the contrary, some maintain steadfast opposition and still others follow like sheep. Ignorance is not bliss. It's fertile soil for people like Bin Laden.
This tape is terrible quality, and poorly recorded. It makes America's Funniest Videos look like Emmy material. There's so many holes here. It will be easy for people to claim that this material is made up by the government. In fact, soon after the attack, there's been reports that high ranking government officials communicated with people in Hollywood. Some will no doubt claim that what was really going on then was a gov't/Hollywood conspiracy to create this tape. Probably some of the same people who still maintain the foolish notion that there were no jewish people in the WTC when it fell, because they all somehow had prior warning. Information is power, and misinformation is a potentially deadly weapon.
A few years ago a hoax video about an alien autopsy circulated which looked authentic enough to fool a lot of people. In a world where news events start looking like scenes from action movies instead of the other way around, nowadays the public as a whole doesn't know what to believe.
posted by ZachsMind at 9:16 AM on December 13, 2001
The only person you can trust is me. I guarantee that I will never have your best interests at heart, and I promise that I will treat you and all your descendents as disposable playthings to be brutalized for my amusement.
...there, feel better now?
posted by aramaic at 9:17 AM on December 13, 2001
...there, feel better now?
posted by aramaic at 9:17 AM on December 13, 2001
It's really sad that we've finally got the guy on VIDEOTAPE acknowledging his role in the act and his enjoyment of the results, and people are making reference to government conspiracies and alien autopsy videos already. The U.S. has had info on bin Laden for a long time, this video is not surprising. All the cynicism is, though.
posted by Karl at 9:22 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by Karl at 9:22 AM on December 13, 2001
aramaic: yes, thanks. are you running for congress in cali? if so, you have my vote.
posted by phalkin at 9:25 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by phalkin at 9:25 AM on December 13, 2001
Thanks Zachsmind. I'm at work and therefore haven't seen the tape (what with no access to CNN), so it's nice to have someone in here describing and discussing it instead of just cracking wise.
posted by Shadowkeeper at 9:30 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by Shadowkeeper at 9:30 AM on December 13, 2001
I don't get how anyone can realistically convince themselves this is a fake. If you don't speak Arabic, you may doubt the translation, but if you can track down anyone who can speak it there is the possibility of verification. If you do speak Arabic (and the translation is good), then you have to convince yourself it's an actor or a digital fake. That really seems like a stretch - of course the audience for this tape may not be as media-savvy as those of us in Western countries, and might be easier to convince it's smoke and mirrors.
But then maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, people will believe what they want to believe.
posted by kokogiak at 9:32 AM on December 13, 2001
But then maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, people will believe what they want to believe.
posted by kokogiak at 9:32 AM on December 13, 2001
Also, for those who cannot see the video, it's rather dull, peppered with Koranic verses, some poetry, references to dreams and visions about planes hitting buildings, a whole long section of raw footage of helicopter wreckage (I think the one that crashed early on in the US operation), and only a short part of it (maybe 15 minutes) has direct conversation about the "operation". There is a lot of praising, a bit of description of the operation, some rejoicing in the interest in Islam it sparked in the West, some hope for an Islamic rebirth in Afghanistan, etc. It really is amazing to see psychotic megalomania at close range - and to see humans smile gleefully about the deaths of so many - and defend those killing by claiming "they were not innocents".
posted by kokogiak at 9:39 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by kokogiak at 9:39 AM on December 13, 2001
Bloody hell! Seems like everyone and his brother in Afghanistan had a premonition the attacks were going to happen. Some over a year in advance. Maybe the FBI should hire some of these people.
posted by dlewis at 9:41 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by dlewis at 9:41 AM on December 13, 2001
Is it too boring a theory to note that they've had it for days, and decided to release it at just the right moment at which it would push the US withdrawal from the ABM treaty off of the headlines?
posted by transient at 9:42 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by transient at 9:42 AM on December 13, 2001
I watched it with my wife and I wish I could just walk into the room and shoot Bin Laden in the head, but that wouldn't be enough suffering for this sick, smiling, laughing bastard.
posted by msacheson at 9:44 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by msacheson at 9:44 AM on December 13, 2001
Thank you kokogiak, nicely put. People that have claimed to be "skeptics" this whole time about the war and about bin Laden officially look like "cynics" to me, and will have trouble getting their head out of their ass long enough to realize that these people do not discriminate: if they could have killed every single one of us on Sept 11, they gladly would have.
posted by Karl at 9:44 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by Karl at 9:44 AM on December 13, 2001
Shadow? You're kidding right? That was sarcasm, right? I described and discussed it but I'm also cracking wise. Don't ruin my reputation by making it sound like I'm being sincere.
The one thing that authenticates this tape for me is that the guy behind the videotape rerecorded over old stuff. The order of the material is not something anyone in Hollywood would even think to do. I mean the first part of the tape is the last part of the evening's dinner. It's like the camera guy just haphazardly grabbed some tape from his bag and hurriedly threw it in the machine because someone with a gun told him to point and shoot.
If you compare the original Blair Witch Project which was not done by Hollywood to the Hollywood infested sequel, you can see what I mean. Running the videotape backwards? Hollywood has no clue. So this Bin Laden tape was obviously not made by Hollywood. It's not a hoax. It's too bad to be a hoax. Though as I said before, some out there will no doubt argue the opposite, and they have some circumstantial evidence to back up their absurdities.
The problem with me is the translation. I have no knowledge of aramaic. Are they speaking aramaic? Arabic? Gaelic? I don't even know what Bin Laden's native tongue is. I have to take as a given that the government is translating this dialogue accurately. Even if I could understand the language, the sound quality is so poor I wouldn't be able to tell "cranberry sauce" from "I buried Paul."
posted by ZachsMind at 9:44 AM on December 13, 2001
The one thing that authenticates this tape for me is that the guy behind the videotape rerecorded over old stuff. The order of the material is not something anyone in Hollywood would even think to do. I mean the first part of the tape is the last part of the evening's dinner. It's like the camera guy just haphazardly grabbed some tape from his bag and hurriedly threw it in the machine because someone with a gun told him to point and shoot.
If you compare the original Blair Witch Project which was not done by Hollywood to the Hollywood infested sequel, you can see what I mean. Running the videotape backwards? Hollywood has no clue. So this Bin Laden tape was obviously not made by Hollywood. It's not a hoax. It's too bad to be a hoax. Though as I said before, some out there will no doubt argue the opposite, and they have some circumstantial evidence to back up their absurdities.
The problem with me is the translation. I have no knowledge of aramaic. Are they speaking aramaic? Arabic? Gaelic? I don't even know what Bin Laden's native tongue is. I have to take as a given that the government is translating this dialogue accurately. Even if I could understand the language, the sound quality is so poor I wouldn't be able to tell "cranberry sauce" from "I buried Paul."
posted by ZachsMind at 9:44 AM on December 13, 2001
Yeh, people believe whatever they want. To be honest, I don't really think it would be that hard to fake this. Just get some good makeup artists and actors that can speak Arabic. You might to a little computer effects on the audio (and some video) to smooth things out.
I don't believe it's a fake. But if I beloved that the WTC was destroyed by Israel, I probably wouldn't buy the tape either.
posted by delmoi at 9:49 AM on December 13, 2001
I don't believe it's a fake. But if I beloved that the WTC was destroyed by Israel, I probably wouldn't buy the tape either.
posted by delmoi at 9:49 AM on December 13, 2001
Yes, it isn't impossible for it to be fake. They could very well have found a look-alike to act as a stand in, and a native Arabic speaker to dub the voice.
That said, I should emphasize that I do not in any way think this is fake. I believe it's real, and most people seem to be just joking when they say it isn't. All I'm saying is that questioning this tape's authenticity is not quite in the same category as believing the world is flat.
posted by Potsy at 9:53 AM on December 13, 2001
That said, I should emphasize that I do not in any way think this is fake. I believe it's real, and most people seem to be just joking when they say it isn't. All I'm saying is that questioning this tape's authenticity is not quite in the same category as believing the world is flat.
posted by Potsy at 9:53 AM on December 13, 2001
Considering how hard it has been for the CIA and FBI to find people who can speak Arabic and its various dialects - an exceedingly well-documented fact - how could anyone here find it even possible that the U.S. govt. could fake such a thing? (Haven't I seen their smarts trashed here repeatedly?) No one there is that freakin' clever.
posted by raysmj at 9:59 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by raysmj at 9:59 AM on December 13, 2001
Yes raysmj, it's very unlikely, and that's why I think it's real. But there is a difference between something being unlikely and it being impossible.
posted by Potsy at 10:12 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by Potsy at 10:12 AM on December 13, 2001
OBL: (...Inaudible...) We calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) Due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.
This is the smoking gun the Gov't was talking about. I had no doubt Bin Laden was behind this crime, but I did doubt that the government would have explicit proof. So glad they do!
posted by cell divide at 10:15 AM on December 13, 2001
This is the smoking gun the Gov't was talking about. I had no doubt Bin Laden was behind this crime, but I did doubt that the government would have explicit proof. So glad they do!
posted by cell divide at 10:15 AM on December 13, 2001
transient:
i think it's the other way around. i think the US was futzing with the video trying to ensure it was legit, and that the political heads thought "let's see what other laundry we can clean"; the ABM treaty being only one piece of it.
posted by moz at 10:18 AM on December 13, 2001
i think it's the other way around. i think the US was futzing with the video trying to ensure it was legit, and that the political heads thought "let's see what other laundry we can clean"; the ABM treaty being only one piece of it.
posted by moz at 10:18 AM on December 13, 2001
Since I do not personally know Osama bin Laden, I cannot state with certainty that the man in that tape is him. How many people in this world could positively identify him?
As much as I deride government "intelligence", the CIA is smart enough to go buy a few used cameras and a bunch of beat-up tapes at a Pakistani bazaar and then shoot out of sequence. That resequencing detail sparked a deja vu moment for me, but I cannot recall if it was from a novel or a film.
If you have ever heard a real taped conversation, you know it sounds like bad acting. Finding a disaffected Afghan lookalike in Pakistan so his accent is still fresh would not be too difficult (unless of course you actually believed that bullshit about the FBI and the CIA being unable to find native speakers).
However, as big an idiot as I think the Shrub is, I sincerely doubt that he and his staff are stupid enough to try to pull a stunt like this. (At least, I should hope not!)
posted by mischief at 10:21 AM on December 13, 2001
As much as I deride government "intelligence", the CIA is smart enough to go buy a few used cameras and a bunch of beat-up tapes at a Pakistani bazaar and then shoot out of sequence. That resequencing detail sparked a deja vu moment for me, but I cannot recall if it was from a novel or a film.
If you have ever heard a real taped conversation, you know it sounds like bad acting. Finding a disaffected Afghan lookalike in Pakistan so his accent is still fresh would not be too difficult (unless of course you actually believed that bullshit about the FBI and the CIA being unable to find native speakers).
However, as big an idiot as I think the Shrub is, I sincerely doubt that he and his staff are stupid enough to try to pull a stunt like this. (At least, I should hope not!)
posted by mischief at 10:21 AM on December 13, 2001
i doubt that this is a fake, but it is also very far from proving anything, other than shooting video does involve some skill.
the timing of it's release could be coincidental, could be because the pentagon really wanted to check it thoroughly before releasing it, afraid that a mis-translation would make them look somewhat foolish.
the purpose of releasing this video could be to illustrate to the middle-east countries that bin-laden was involved in the attacks, and that the us has the evidence. it does seem to show that he had prior knowledge at least. however, as i do not speak pashtun, or whatever i cannot comment. i know how difficult it is to form the imperfect past (or something) in english, let alone in pashtun.
the story of the discovery of this video is interesting. i bet there's a taliban/al queda officer in something deep out there in the frozen mountains.
posted by asok at 10:21 AM on December 13, 2001
the timing of it's release could be coincidental, could be because the pentagon really wanted to check it thoroughly before releasing it, afraid that a mis-translation would make them look somewhat foolish.
the purpose of releasing this video could be to illustrate to the middle-east countries that bin-laden was involved in the attacks, and that the us has the evidence. it does seem to show that he had prior knowledge at least. however, as i do not speak pashtun, or whatever i cannot comment. i know how difficult it is to form the imperfect past (or something) in english, let alone in pashtun.
the story of the discovery of this video is interesting. i bet there's a taliban/al queda officer in something deep out there in the frozen mountains.
posted by asok at 10:21 AM on December 13, 2001
People think it's a fake because the US couldn't find a more damning tape for Bin Laden unless they caught him raping a small boy while spitting on a Qoran and eating a ham sandwhich. The inaudible part is also worrying. That doesn't mean it is fake.
But skepticism never hurt, right?
I mean, raysmj, the FBI and CIA are having trouble finding enough people to translate the thousands and thousands of conversations they tap, and letters they steal. I would hope the intelligence agencies of the wealthiest country on Earth could get 3 or 4 arab speaking people.
And Zach, to claim that it's TOO good a fake just doesn't make sense. If it took you 3 seconds to realize that it couldn't be a fake for those reasons, wouldn't someone faking it also realize that?
posted by Doug at 10:21 AM on December 13, 2001
But skepticism never hurt, right?
I mean, raysmj, the FBI and CIA are having trouble finding enough people to translate the thousands and thousands of conversations they tap, and letters they steal. I would hope the intelligence agencies of the wealthiest country on Earth could get 3 or 4 arab speaking people.
And Zach, to claim that it's TOO good a fake just doesn't make sense. If it took you 3 seconds to realize that it couldn't be a fake for those reasons, wouldn't someone faking it also realize that?
posted by Doug at 10:21 AM on December 13, 2001
I simply don't believe bin Laden sat for that taping. He tightly controls all taping of him. Back before 9-1-1, when reporters would try to interview him, his handlers would explain that he isn't the president, you won't be doing casual shots of the two of you walking along talking. You will submit questions and he will decide if and how he responds. Total control.
So, uh, bin Laden is ok with some podunk doing a crappy recording of him with a crappy handcam with crappy lighting and crappy sound talking about all the things he has denied in public. Then information about the video is leaked and we wait forever to actually be permited to see it because of BS "security" concerns. (Sorry, but you can't describe the video's contents in detail, then delay its release saying it could give away the people who obtained the tape. That doesn't make any sense.)
posted by fleener at 10:29 AM on December 13, 2001
So, uh, bin Laden is ok with some podunk doing a crappy recording of him with a crappy handcam with crappy lighting and crappy sound talking about all the things he has denied in public. Then information about the video is leaked and we wait forever to actually be permited to see it because of BS "security" concerns. (Sorry, but you can't describe the video's contents in detail, then delay its release saying it could give away the people who obtained the tape. That doesn't make any sense.)
posted by fleener at 10:29 AM on December 13, 2001
msacheson - "I wish I could just walk into the room and shoot Bin Laden in the head"
My thoughts exactly this morning. I haven't felt such a visceral urge to kill in my memory. Amazing piece of motivational propaganda the US has got here. I really want to see the reactions of the Egyptian and Saudi governments, this video seems incredibly damning of the Saudi Wahabi movement.
posted by kokogiak at 10:33 AM on December 13, 2001
My thoughts exactly this morning. I haven't felt such a visceral urge to kill in my memory. Amazing piece of motivational propaganda the US has got here. I really want to see the reactions of the Egyptian and Saudi governments, this video seems incredibly damning of the Saudi Wahabi movement.
posted by kokogiak at 10:33 AM on December 13, 2001
fleener - the argument i heard is that the 'table talk' of 'spiritual leaders' is routinely recorded in the middle east.
this video was shot during the visit of a saudi businessman.
posted by asok at 10:36 AM on December 13, 2001
this video was shot during the visit of a saudi businessman.
posted by asok at 10:36 AM on December 13, 2001
I think he's dreamy.
posted by solistrato at 10:36 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by solistrato at 10:36 AM on December 13, 2001
It really is amazing to see psychotic megalomania at close range - and to see humans smile gleefully about the deaths of so many - and defend those killing by claiming "they were not innocents".
Exactly my thought the first time I saw a southern baptist minister in action.
posted by mischief at 10:37 AM on December 13, 2001
Exactly my thought the first time I saw a southern baptist minister in action.
posted by mischief at 10:37 AM on December 13, 2001
fleener - asok, I have to ask. If this evidence "does not prove anything", just what the Hell would? Huh, honestly? I mean any sort of media is manipulatable, any person's memory is fallible, and anyone can lie. What would constitute proof? What could possibly convince you that that pig of a man called bin Laden did this or any other awful thing. Lacking conclusive evidence, don't you have to make your case on reasoned deduction? Do you think it's reasonable to assume this is faked?
Can you imagine the repercussions if it was faked and anybody ever found out? - I think that price would be too high to risk such a deception. Covert CIA operations of the past have come to light in recent years, with embarrassing results (trying to make Castro's beard fall out with poison cigars for instance). This would be beyond embarrassing, it would horribly undermine the U.S. credibility worldwide. I may not like dubya much, but I sincerely doubt he'd risk such an eventuality just to further prove what most people accept as generally proven already - bin Laden and Al Qaeda are guilty of calculated mass murder.
posted by kokogiak at 10:43 AM on December 13, 2001
Can you imagine the repercussions if it was faked and anybody ever found out? - I think that price would be too high to risk such a deception. Covert CIA operations of the past have come to light in recent years, with embarrassing results (trying to make Castro's beard fall out with poison cigars for instance). This would be beyond embarrassing, it would horribly undermine the U.S. credibility worldwide. I may not like dubya much, but I sincerely doubt he'd risk such an eventuality just to further prove what most people accept as generally proven already - bin Laden and Al Qaeda are guilty of calculated mass murder.
posted by kokogiak at 10:43 AM on December 13, 2001
kokogiak - the american 'intelligence' organisations have used video material in the past to discredit various people, which has then been proved to be entirely fabricated. which i haven't found links to presently
with this video, i do not think that is the case, however, it certainly would not be used as pivotal evidence in a court of law as there is no admition of guilt, simply knowledge.
posted by asok at 10:50 AM on December 13, 2001
with this video, i do not think that is the case, however, it certainly would not be used as pivotal evidence in a court of law as there is no admition of guilt, simply knowledge.
posted by asok at 10:50 AM on December 13, 2001
Thanks mischief, (truly) for taking the anger I now have toward these Islamic psychotics and making me think - and to turn it on some people who look and talk and dress more like me. It makes me feel better now, and helps strip away some perceived guilt about hating a foreigner.
Just as I'm furious with bin Laden, I'm furious with those smug fuckers in the U.S. who think that it's honorable to shoot and kill doctors who perform abortions. I guess ignorant fanaticism knows no nationalities, and my anger with fanatic violence feels appropriate in both cases.
posted by kokogiak at 10:54 AM on December 13, 2001
Just as I'm furious with bin Laden, I'm furious with those smug fuckers in the U.S. who think that it's honorable to shoot and kill doctors who perform abortions. I guess ignorant fanaticism knows no nationalities, and my anger with fanatic violence feels appropriate in both cases.
posted by kokogiak at 10:54 AM on December 13, 2001
Can you imagine the repercussions if it was faked and anybody ever found out?
If it's a fake, I think it would be utterly impossible to prove that to the American public. Look how many are taking it at face value.
posted by jpoulos at 10:55 AM on December 13, 2001
If it's a fake, I think it would be utterly impossible to prove that to the American public. Look how many are taking it at face value.
posted by jpoulos at 10:55 AM on December 13, 2001
True enough jpoulos - imagine if it had been faked and there was a 'behind the scenes' video that surfaced later to prove it had been faked - duel of the tapes, what to believe? I guess I was supposing that it could hypothetically be found out (as a fake) and maybe acknowledged by people in the government, as has been the case in other embarrassments. I just don't think it's too much of a stretch to take this video at face value, as you say so many have already (obviously myself included).
posted by kokogiak at 11:01 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by kokogiak at 11:01 AM on December 13, 2001
mischief wrote: Exactly my thought the first time I saw a southern baptist minister in action.
kokogiak wrote: Thanks mischief, (truly) for taking the anger I now have toward these Islamic psychotics and making me think - and to turn it on some people who look and talk and dress more like me. It makes me feel better now, and helps strip away some perceived guilt about hating a foreigner.
Just as I'm furious with bin Laden, I'm furious with those smug fuckers in the U.S. who think that it's honorable to shoot and kill doctors who perform abortions. I guess ignorant fanaticism knows no nationalities, and my anger with fanatic violence feels appropriate in both cases.
This is from Rev. Fred Phelps' website godhatesfags.com (no link, if you really want to visit, type it in yourself) on a page about America being punished for "fag-loving".
America the Burning
(Sung to America the Beautiful)
O wicked land of sodomites
Your World Trade Center's gone
With crashing planes and burning flames
To hell your souls have flown
America
America
God's wrath was shown to thee!
He smote this land
With his own hand
And showed his sovereignty
I'm doing a staged reading of a play this Saturday that has a character based on Phelps, and he (or at least somebody from his "church") is planning to picket the reading. He says it's "blasphemous and fag-enabling". It's going to be very hard for me to control my actions if this guy shows up. Once again, fanaticism just completely boggles my mind.
posted by starvingartist at 11:06 AM on December 13, 2001
kokogiak wrote: Thanks mischief, (truly) for taking the anger I now have toward these Islamic psychotics and making me think - and to turn it on some people who look and talk and dress more like me. It makes me feel better now, and helps strip away some perceived guilt about hating a foreigner.
Just as I'm furious with bin Laden, I'm furious with those smug fuckers in the U.S. who think that it's honorable to shoot and kill doctors who perform abortions. I guess ignorant fanaticism knows no nationalities, and my anger with fanatic violence feels appropriate in both cases.
This is from Rev. Fred Phelps' website godhatesfags.com (no link, if you really want to visit, type it in yourself) on a page about America being punished for "fag-loving".
America the Burning
(Sung to America the Beautiful)
O wicked land of sodomites
Your World Trade Center's gone
With crashing planes and burning flames
To hell your souls have flown
America
America
God's wrath was shown to thee!
He smote this land
With his own hand
And showed his sovereignty
I'm doing a staged reading of a play this Saturday that has a character based on Phelps, and he (or at least somebody from his "church") is planning to picket the reading. He says it's "blasphemous and fag-enabling". It's going to be very hard for me to control my actions if this guy shows up. Once again, fanaticism just completely boggles my mind.
posted by starvingartist at 11:06 AM on December 13, 2001
Break a leg starvingartist. It must be painful to step into a character like that, because I imagine you'd have to find the humanity in someone so awful in order to portray him honestly.
posted by kokogiak at 11:16 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by kokogiak at 11:16 AM on December 13, 2001
Actually, I'm not playing the minister, I'm playing the gay character :) The guy playing the minister is doing a very good job finding the humanity, and the writer did a good job, too. He's a fanatic, and he preaches hate, but in his view he only does it because it's all right there in the Bible and he's only doing God's work. I think he's a loon, but there you go.
posted by starvingartist at 11:19 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by starvingartist at 11:19 AM on December 13, 2001
asok: Knowledge of what was to take place would, in any court of law in the U.S., state or federal, make bin Laden an accessory to murder - which is the same thing as murder, for all intents and purposes. This is true, I believe, in almost every nation in the world.
posted by raysmj at 11:23 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by raysmj at 11:23 AM on December 13, 2001
All you Metafilter conspiracy theorists, you've got an ally: Atta's Father Dismisses Videotape. The father, Mohamed al-Amir al-Sayed Awad Atta, said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press that he had not seen the tape, but declared it a "farce. All this is a forgery, a fabrication!"
posted by Carol Anne at 11:31 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by Carol Anne at 11:31 AM on December 13, 2001
awesome starvingartist. care to share where this will occur? i'm in cleveland too
posted by sadie01221975 at 11:35 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by sadie01221975 at 11:35 AM on December 13, 2001
sadie: I don't know that it would be kosher for me to advertise the show here any more than I already have. If anyone is interested, email me (via my profile) and I will let you know. Thanks!
posted by starvingartist at 11:40 AM on December 13, 2001
posted by starvingartist at 11:40 AM on December 13, 2001
It's going to be very hard for me to control my actions if this guy shows up.
May I suggest trying what other places picketed by Phelps have done: have a charity drive, where you get people to pledge money for every minute Phelps pickets the location. Give the money to gay-rights or AIDS charities - thus, the longer Phelps pickets, the more money is raised for the very things he hates.
posted by dnash at 11:42 AM on December 13, 2001
May I suggest trying what other places picketed by Phelps have done: have a charity drive, where you get people to pledge money for every minute Phelps pickets the location. Give the money to gay-rights or AIDS charities - thus, the longer Phelps pickets, the more money is raised for the very things he hates.
posted by dnash at 11:42 AM on December 13, 2001
Army has weapons-grade anthrax - the same strain that has been found going throught the mail system... hmm, could this be a coincidence?
Will someone post this link on the front page:
I Don't have front-page posting rights yet. ;)
posted by zuzu at 12:00 PM on December 13, 2001
Will someone post this link on the front page:
I Don't have front-page posting rights yet. ;)
posted by zuzu at 12:00 PM on December 13, 2001
raysmj - i am no legal expert, that may well be the case. however, it may also be the case that bin laden did not conceive, execute or command the operation, that there are those *more* guilty than him (just an idea).
posted by asok at 12:00 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by asok at 12:00 PM on December 13, 2001
Um, here's the link - my browser isn't capable of using the automatic linking... :(
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011213/ts/attack_anthrax_army_dc.html
posted by zuzu at 12:02 PM on December 13, 2001
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011213/ts/attack_anthrax_army_dc.html
posted by zuzu at 12:02 PM on December 13, 2001
Will someone post this link on the front page:
zuzu: No.
posted by Karl at 12:04 PM on December 13, 2001
zuzu: No.
posted by Karl at 12:04 PM on December 13, 2001
asok, I believe that the only ones "more" guilty than OBL are those 19 wastes of life that are smashed into various buildings and fields - dead already. Besides, being "more" guilty of murder, or "less" guilty at this level really doesn't make that much difference in this case does it?
zuzu - I think the Anthrax story is pretty widespread already, so I don't think it merits a FP post.
posted by kokogiak at 12:05 PM on December 13, 2001
zuzu - I think the Anthrax story is pretty widespread already, so I don't think it merits a FP post.
posted by kokogiak at 12:05 PM on December 13, 2001
Oh goody, a Fred Phelps Osama tape thread.
There are literally thousands of people who can authenticate the identification of bin Laden, starting with the scores of siblings out there. He wouldn't be speaking an Afghan dialect, he would be speaking Arabic with a Saudi, perhaps with a slight Lebanese accent.
I'm really struck that he did predict the fire would burn and melt the steel. I've said from the beginning that his civil engineering background probably figured into this in some way. A note that other types of skyscrapers likely could have behaved as bin Laden predicted. I always thought they really wanted the towers to topple (which was admitted in court as the goal in the 1993 bombing), killing tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people, but if that's what they expected I suppose we have to leave it where it is as the greatest atrocity of our time. I'm amused that bin Laden is so cavalier about the hijacker muscle who didn't know they were being used in a suicide mission. Maybe some future recruits will think twice, now.
posted by dhartung at 12:05 PM on December 13, 2001
There are literally thousands of people who can authenticate the identification of bin Laden, starting with the scores of siblings out there. He wouldn't be speaking an Afghan dialect, he would be speaking Arabic with a Saudi, perhaps with a slight Lebanese accent.
I'm really struck that he did predict the fire would burn and melt the steel. I've said from the beginning that his civil engineering background probably figured into this in some way. A note that other types of skyscrapers likely could have behaved as bin Laden predicted. I always thought they really wanted the towers to topple (which was admitted in court as the goal in the 1993 bombing), killing tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people, but if that's what they expected I suppose we have to leave it where it is as the greatest atrocity of our time. I'm amused that bin Laden is so cavalier about the hijacker muscle who didn't know they were being used in a suicide mission. Maybe some future recruits will think twice, now.
posted by dhartung at 12:05 PM on December 13, 2001
he would be speaking Arabic
Oh, well, in that case, an impersonator could be found more easily. Thanks for making my case.
posted by mischief at 12:12 PM on December 13, 2001
Oh, well, in that case, an impersonator could be found more easily. Thanks for making my case.
posted by mischief at 12:12 PM on December 13, 2001
Voice prints are as impossible to fake as fingerprints. Having seen excerpts from the tape, I am convinced it's him. The quality is really not that bad. The inaudible sections seem to be very brief, and generally outside the flow of conversation (most seem to be "ums" or false starts). I'm as skeptical as they come, and there's nothing wrong with trying to poke holes, but this one seems rock solid. It's him.
posted by Spork65 at 12:20 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by Spork65 at 12:20 PM on December 13, 2001
I don't understand the interpretation that the perpetrators didn't know it was a suicide mission until just before they got on the plane.
On the tape, OBL says "The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter"
martyrdom = suicide, no?
posted by Spork65 at 12:25 PM on December 13, 2001
On the tape, OBL says "The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter"
martyrdom = suicide, no?
posted by Spork65 at 12:25 PM on December 13, 2001
Martyrdom does not necessarily mean death, but extreme suffering as well.
posted by mischief at 12:28 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by mischief at 12:28 PM on December 13, 2001
I took it to mean that the "brothers" expected the suicide mission at some point, but didn't know it would be this flight until the last moment.
posted by ferris at 12:39 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by ferris at 12:39 PM on December 13, 2001
Spork65, I think you're right. From what I read, it seems that they didn't know what exactly they would be doing, but probably had a good idea it involved their death.
posted by Doug at 12:42 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by Doug at 12:42 PM on December 13, 2001
Nope. No Megway either. Both of those would be hard to fake as well.
posted by kokogiak at 12:59 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by kokogiak at 12:59 PM on December 13, 2001
on taping bin laden...he restricts press access...not his own camera guy.
don't you see? tapes like this aren't for the press. they aren't for the people to see...they are for Marketing.
tapes to send out to big money supporters. Like sending out a brochure and an annual report. Thanks for the money and arms you sent, here is what we were able to do with it. We look forward to seeing you at our annual shareholders dinner
could it be fake? sure. I'm a big fan of occam's razor though...plurality [a complicated explanation] you not be posited without necessity. Pluralitus non est ponenda sine neccesitate.
posted by th3ph17 at 12:59 PM on December 13, 2001
don't you see? tapes like this aren't for the press. they aren't for the people to see...they are for Marketing.
tapes to send out to big money supporters. Like sending out a brochure and an annual report. Thanks for the money and arms you sent, here is what we were able to do with it. We look forward to seeing you at our annual shareholders dinner
could it be fake? sure. I'm a big fan of occam's razor though...plurality [a complicated explanation] you not be posited without necessity. Pluralitus non est ponenda sine neccesitate.
posted by th3ph17 at 12:59 PM on December 13, 2001
Last I saw, all the Muppets were hanging with Kofi Annan and the UN - I guess they're doing damage control for the whole Bert 'n Osama debacle.
posted by kokogiak at 1:05 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by kokogiak at 1:05 PM on December 13, 2001
Last I saw, all the Muppets were hanging with Kofi Annan and the UN - I guess they're doing damage control for the whole Bert 'n Osama debacle.
posted by kokogiak at 1:05 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by kokogiak at 1:05 PM on December 13, 2001
Don't be, kokogiak. They're becoming very rare.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:17 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:17 PM on December 13, 2001
Any reason why Osama would videotape meetings like this. Doesn't seem like a particularly secure strategum, especially if it leaked out military information.
posted by destro at 1:27 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by destro at 1:27 PM on December 13, 2001
What's interesting to me, is not whether or not we believe the tape is real, or a fake, but to think about what actions, or inactions, our government has taken to make a belief like this not only possible, but prevalent.
posted by aschulak at 1:34 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by aschulak at 1:34 PM on December 13, 2001
Here's another video of Osama, but I'm sure it's a fake.
posted by msacheson at 1:40 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by msacheson at 1:40 PM on December 13, 2001
Of course the tape could be real (in the sense of being undoctored), and fake. Anyone can boast about planning an event after it's already taken place -- many terrorists groups will cheerfully take credit for bombs and mayhem that they did not actually have anything to do with. I would have been a lot happier if the tape had been on bin Laden discussing the WTC attacks prior to September 11th.
(Obligatory disclaimer: Yeah yeah, I think Osama is the guy behind the attacks as much as you do. I'm just sayin'...)
posted by Shadowkeeper at 1:42 PM on December 13, 2001
(Obligatory disclaimer: Yeah yeah, I think Osama is the guy behind the attacks as much as you do. I'm just sayin'...)
posted by Shadowkeeper at 1:42 PM on December 13, 2001
I would have been a lot happier if the tape had been on bin Laden discussing the WTC attacks prior to September 11th.
Oh, and I would also like a pony.
posted by Shadowkeeper at 1:45 PM on December 13, 2001
Oh, and I would also like a pony.
posted by Shadowkeeper at 1:45 PM on December 13, 2001
If the Bushies were going to fake this videotape, don't you think they'd have done it before they started bombing things in Afghanistan? Seemed like they had enough evidence against bin Laden and were well into the let's-get-him phase when along came this tape. The timing's all wrong for fakery.
Now somebody will respond by saying the bad timing is part of the genius of the fake, like the crappy quality of the video. Mm-hmm, sure it is, pal. To confirm your suspicions, yes, I believe the moon landings were real, too.
posted by diddlegnome at 1:51 PM on December 13, 2001
Now somebody will respond by saying the bad timing is part of the genius of the fake, like the crappy quality of the video. Mm-hmm, sure it is, pal. To confirm your suspicions, yes, I believe the moon landings were real, too.
posted by diddlegnome at 1:51 PM on December 13, 2001
The father, Mohamed al-Amir al-Sayed Awad Atta, said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press that he had not seen the tape, but declared it a "farce. All this is a forgery, a fabrication!"
How's that for objectivity! Hasn't even seen the tape, but it must be fake. Also, Mr. Atta says that he has spoken to his son after Sept. 11th. Yeah right. If he spoke to him after the WTC attacks, then he must be alive. Why not tell us where he is. Maybe because Mr. Atta is in heavy denial, like the rest of the Middle East.
From my POV, what the US authorities ought to focus on is the money trail from OBL to the hijackers. That's going to be hard as hell, since most banks in the Middle East probably won't cooperate with the investigation. Also, that type of investigation may implicate highly placed officials in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt etc. et al, and maybe we don't want to "go there," either to keep the coalition intact or maybe we just don't want to bite the hand that gives us cheap oil. After all, isn't that what the Gulf war was all about...
posted by Rastafari at 2:20 PM on December 13, 2001
How's that for objectivity! Hasn't even seen the tape, but it must be fake. Also, Mr. Atta says that he has spoken to his son after Sept. 11th. Yeah right. If he spoke to him after the WTC attacks, then he must be alive. Why not tell us where he is. Maybe because Mr. Atta is in heavy denial, like the rest of the Middle East.
From my POV, what the US authorities ought to focus on is the money trail from OBL to the hijackers. That's going to be hard as hell, since most banks in the Middle East probably won't cooperate with the investigation. Also, that type of investigation may implicate highly placed officials in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt etc. et al, and maybe we don't want to "go there," either to keep the coalition intact or maybe we just don't want to bite the hand that gives us cheap oil. After all, isn't that what the Gulf war was all about...
posted by Rastafari at 2:20 PM on December 13, 2001
I am, somehow, reminded of all the parents who say "my son would never kill himself; it was that heavy metal music that made him do it!"
posted by aramaic at 2:24 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by aramaic at 2:24 PM on December 13, 2001
The father, Mohamed al-Amir al-Sayed Awad Atta, said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press that he had not seen the tape, but declared it a "farce. All this is a forgery, a fabrication!"
He then paused and added defiantly, "I LOVE my DEAD, GAY son."
posted by electro at 2:41 PM on December 13, 2001
speculation as to whether the tape could be part of some conspiracy for the govt. to convince the population of the world is ludicrous. there has not been a significant outcry of people asking for proof or hesitation to find something more damning - any trial, US or international, will not be hinged on this specific piece of evidence. i was immediately struck with 2 things after reading the transcript. first, the only time i have heard more utterances of a deity peppered into conversation was in an encounter with a paranoid delusional in a lockdown ward who repeated "praise Jesus" before and after each sentence. second, it's chilling that any reference can be made about having personal experience in the destruction of buildings and the anticipated fallout.
posted by jyoung at 2:52 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by jyoung at 2:52 PM on December 13, 2001
If the Bushies were going to fake this videotape, don't you think they'd have done it before they started bombing things in Afghanistan?
Well, now, that's clear and convincing evidence if I ever heard it!
hmm, sure it is, pal. To confirm your suspicions, yes, I believe the moon landings were real, too.
Who are you talking to?
posted by jpoulos at 3:09 PM on December 13, 2001
Well, now, that's clear and convincing evidence if I ever heard it!
hmm, sure it is, pal. To confirm your suspicions, yes, I believe the moon landings were real, too.
Who are you talking to?
posted by jpoulos at 3:09 PM on December 13, 2001
Someone gather several translations together. Interesting read.
posted by RylandDotNet at 3:12 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by RylandDotNet at 3:12 PM on December 13, 2001
Considering that we've already seen two Osama bin Laden promotional videos, I believe this one is real.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:30 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by kirkaracha at 3:30 PM on December 13, 2001
Here's an interesting analysis on why OBL would permit such a tape to be made.
posted by tweber at 4:03 PM on December 13, 2001
posted by tweber at 4:03 PM on December 13, 2001
>> hmm, sure it is, pal. To confirm your suspicions, yes, I believe the moon landings were real, too.
> Who are you talking to?
Nobody specific. I was anticipating a response from somebody who thinks the timing of the tape's discovery constitutes evidence of a conspiracy. I just wound up sounding weird, though, didn't I? Hmph.
posted by diddlegnome at 5:07 PM on December 13, 2001
> Who are you talking to?
Nobody specific. I was anticipating a response from somebody who thinks the timing of the tape's discovery constitutes evidence of a conspiracy. I just wound up sounding weird, though, didn't I? Hmph.
posted by diddlegnome at 5:07 PM on December 13, 2001
Obligatory disclaimer:
why do people who admit to the possibility of a faked video feel a need to throw in the 'I believe he's guilty' disclaimer?
posted by tolkhan at 5:26 PM on December 13, 2001
why do people who admit to the possibility of a faked video feel a need to throw in the 'I believe he's guilty' disclaimer?
posted by tolkhan at 5:26 PM on December 13, 2001
RylandDotNet, great link!!
Yes, but that's not this tape, it's the earlier one.
posted by ferris at 6:21 PM on December 13, 2001
Yes, but that's not this tape, it's the earlier one.
posted by ferris at 6:21 PM on December 13, 2001
Four questions struck me when I first heard of the tape that have up till now not been answered satisfactorily.
1) Who made the tape?
2) Why did he/they make the tape?
3) How and where did the government get their hands on the tape?
4) Was the maker/s aware of the amount of damning evidence on the tape? And if so, why wasn't it taken or destroyed instead of letting it so casually fall into enemy hands?
posted by timyang at 7:15 PM on December 13, 2001
1) Who made the tape?
2) Why did he/they make the tape?
3) How and where did the government get their hands on the tape?
4) Was the maker/s aware of the amount of damning evidence on the tape? And if so, why wasn't it taken or destroyed instead of letting it so casually fall into enemy hands?
posted by timyang at 7:15 PM on December 13, 2001
tolkhan said: why do people who admit to the possibility of a faked video feel a need to throw in the 'I believe he's guilty' disclaimer?
Because they are afraid of being labelled "conspiracy theorists", which means "crazy", and "not to be taken seriously". The moment the mere possibility the video might be fake was brought up, someone started talking about the Flat Earth Society. Apparently, questioning the U.S. Government is considered on the same level as questioning the laws of nature with some people.
posted by Potsy at 9:57 PM on December 13, 2001
Because they are afraid of being labelled "conspiracy theorists", which means "crazy", and "not to be taken seriously". The moment the mere possibility the video might be fake was brought up, someone started talking about the Flat Earth Society. Apparently, questioning the U.S. Government is considered on the same level as questioning the laws of nature with some people.
posted by Potsy at 9:57 PM on December 13, 2001
Potsy, do you believe the tape was faked? If so, what about the tape leads you to think this?
It's not a matter of not 'questioning' the US government, everyone does that, certainly everyone on MeFi. It's the issue of whether the government would fake a major piece of evidence.
Has there been any incident in recent decades in which the US federal government has faked a document, a video or audio tape? I'm not talking about verbal lies (Clinton lying about the Lewinsky affair, or a press spokesmen denying something that was later found to be true), or honest errors, or concealment (e.g., the '18 1/2 minute gap' in one of the Watergate tapes), or stuff done by local police departments, or single out-of-control individuals, or false information passed to known spies, but actual faked physical evidence by the US government, presented to the public as real. I can't think of any, but maybe you can enlighten me.
I just doubt the government of any developed country would risk faking something as high-profile as this because of the risk of discovery. Every video and audio expert in the world is going to be scrutinizing this thing, taking it apart frame by frame and voiceprint by voiceprint. If it were fake, and discovered to be so, no one would trust US government evidence for decades, and it might well provoke war with the Arab world, which would assume that the US was lying about everything else.
posted by Slithy_Tove at 12:40 AM on December 14, 2001
It's not a matter of not 'questioning' the US government, everyone does that, certainly everyone on MeFi. It's the issue of whether the government would fake a major piece of evidence.
Has there been any incident in recent decades in which the US federal government has faked a document, a video or audio tape? I'm not talking about verbal lies (Clinton lying about the Lewinsky affair, or a press spokesmen denying something that was later found to be true), or honest errors, or concealment (e.g., the '18 1/2 minute gap' in one of the Watergate tapes), or stuff done by local police departments, or single out-of-control individuals, or false information passed to known spies, but actual faked physical evidence by the US government, presented to the public as real. I can't think of any, but maybe you can enlighten me.
I just doubt the government of any developed country would risk faking something as high-profile as this because of the risk of discovery. Every video and audio expert in the world is going to be scrutinizing this thing, taking it apart frame by frame and voiceprint by voiceprint. If it were fake, and discovered to be so, no one would trust US government evidence for decades, and it might well provoke war with the Arab world, which would assume that the US was lying about everything else.
posted by Slithy_Tove at 12:40 AM on December 14, 2001
Apparently, questioning the U.S. Government is considered on the same level as questioning the laws of nature with some people.
It's not a question of the actions of the US government, it's more a question of logic over belief or vice-versa. For most of the anti-war folks on this site, there is never going to be positive proof that we should be after bin Laden. I could invite Uncle Usama to their homes and have him confess (of which I'm sure the megalomaniacal bastard would love to do) and they would still reject it.
Just like bin Laden's belief that his god wants us dead over shadows logic, the belief that we could have gotten out of this situation without someone paying dearly for it over shadows logic as well. Whether or not you think he did it is belief. Understanding the fact that it is now totally clear that he and Atta were responsible is logic.
So riddle me this skeptical MeFites, when we have a president with cronies that have deals with the Saudis, and the bin Laden family in particular over oil, why would the US be trying to kill one of them? Wouldn't you have expected to find out that bin Laden was innocent? What does the US have to gain in making him a target? Isn't Evil Shrub an oil man? Don't his deep pocket friends have strong roots in that area? Wouldn't it be so much nicer if they could just keep the status quo?
Just a bit OT, There was a post on the FP (can't find it now) from a while back that wondered aloud about how NA atrocities weren't being reported by the press because they didn't want the Taliban to seem more "human." I have not doubt that the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and bin Laden are human. It is the people who have strange belief that all humans posses some inherent goodness that need to rearrange their perceptions and come to terms with the fact that some people are just evil. Bin Laden is one of those people. (and the NA is really not trailing far behind, by the way)
posted by eyeballkid at 1:08 AM on December 14, 2001
It's not a question of the actions of the US government, it's more a question of logic over belief or vice-versa. For most of the anti-war folks on this site, there is never going to be positive proof that we should be after bin Laden. I could invite Uncle Usama to their homes and have him confess (of which I'm sure the megalomaniacal bastard would love to do) and they would still reject it.
Just like bin Laden's belief that his god wants us dead over shadows logic, the belief that we could have gotten out of this situation without someone paying dearly for it over shadows logic as well. Whether or not you think he did it is belief. Understanding the fact that it is now totally clear that he and Atta were responsible is logic.
So riddle me this skeptical MeFites, when we have a president with cronies that have deals with the Saudis, and the bin Laden family in particular over oil, why would the US be trying to kill one of them? Wouldn't you have expected to find out that bin Laden was innocent? What does the US have to gain in making him a target? Isn't Evil Shrub an oil man? Don't his deep pocket friends have strong roots in that area? Wouldn't it be so much nicer if they could just keep the status quo?
Just a bit OT, There was a post on the FP (can't find it now) from a while back that wondered aloud about how NA atrocities weren't being reported by the press because they didn't want the Taliban to seem more "human." I have not doubt that the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and bin Laden are human. It is the people who have strange belief that all humans posses some inherent goodness that need to rearrange their perceptions and come to terms with the fact that some people are just evil. Bin Laden is one of those people. (and the NA is really not trailing far behind, by the way)
posted by eyeballkid at 1:08 AM on December 14, 2001
I'm amused that bin Laden is so cavalier about the hijacker muscle who didn't know they were being used in a suicide mission. Maybe some future recruits will think twice, now.
What you're saying here is based on the pre-release buzz about the tape. It doesn't jive at all with the actual content of the tape (see AP transcript at NYT):
The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.
Most everything said about the tape in advance has proven true, except for the idea that OBL is gloating about the hijackers' being in the dark. That is interpretation, at best! He says clearly they knew it was a "martyrdom operation."
Don't get me wrong, the man's attitude on the tape is evil. But I'm frankly surprised that all my family & friends keep repeating that particular idea as if it had a basis in the transcript, which they have read... Some of the discussion here has been about how hard it is to change beliefs through an encounter with hard evidence—here's a small example on "our side."
posted by Zurishaddai at 2:21 AM on December 14, 2001
What you're saying here is based on the pre-release buzz about the tape. It doesn't jive at all with the actual content of the tape (see AP transcript at NYT):
The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.
Most everything said about the tape in advance has proven true, except for the idea that OBL is gloating about the hijackers' being in the dark. That is interpretation, at best! He says clearly they knew it was a "martyrdom operation."
Don't get me wrong, the man's attitude on the tape is evil. But I'm frankly surprised that all my family & friends keep repeating that particular idea as if it had a basis in the transcript, which they have read... Some of the discussion here has been about how hard it is to change beliefs through an encounter with hard evidence—here's a small example on "our side."
posted by Zurishaddai at 2:21 AM on December 14, 2001
Shadowkeeper- 'I would have been a lot happier if the tape had been on bin Laden discussing the WTC attacks prior to September 11th.'
that's the bit i forgot to consider. as evidence of guilt this tape is not much help, as the recording appears to have been made after 911.
to avoid an investigation being termed 'mob-rule' certain laws and guidelines are usually adhered to when dealing with crime by those investigating. this may be difficult in some situations, however it is imperative that justice is served, and is seen to be served.
i am sure this recording has rekindled much of the outrage that the air was full of just after the attack. callous dis-regard for human life should provoke outrage. nontheless, some find it difficult to sympathise with people whose concern seems to only stretch a very short geographical or ideological distance.
interperatations of any situation can differ wildly, but to claim some human beings 'pure evil' is never going to help us understand ourselves. this is the path taken by fundamentalists, who contrary to their monicker are no fun at all, but are completely mental.
posted by asok at 5:01 AM on December 14, 2001
that's the bit i forgot to consider. as evidence of guilt this tape is not much help, as the recording appears to have been made after 911.
to avoid an investigation being termed 'mob-rule' certain laws and guidelines are usually adhered to when dealing with crime by those investigating. this may be difficult in some situations, however it is imperative that justice is served, and is seen to be served.
i am sure this recording has rekindled much of the outrage that the air was full of just after the attack. callous dis-regard for human life should provoke outrage. nontheless, some find it difficult to sympathise with people whose concern seems to only stretch a very short geographical or ideological distance.
interperatations of any situation can differ wildly, but to claim some human beings 'pure evil' is never going to help us understand ourselves. this is the path taken by fundamentalists, who contrary to their monicker are no fun at all, but are completely mental.
posted by asok at 5:01 AM on December 14, 2001
After viewing more of the tape, I am convinced that OBL had as much foreknowledge of 9/11 as Reagan had knowledge of Ollie North's dealings.
posted by mischief at 7:00 AM on December 14, 2001
posted by mischief at 7:00 AM on December 14, 2001
As for the consequences of this being a fake. In the past, the US government has rarely cared. Does anybody else remember the video tape of a Kuwaiti nurse tearfully recounting how Iraqi soldiers went through her hospital and were unplugging incubators and killing children in the maternity wards. That tearful woman was later (about 2 weeks) discovered to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti diplomat to the US. She wasn't even in Kuwait when the Iraqis invaded. I think we should all think about this little piece of history when evaluating the current "evidence" from the US government.
posted by Alfieri at 7:21 AM on December 14, 2001
posted by Alfieri at 7:21 AM on December 14, 2001
Friday Dec 14 - Frame by frame analysyis reveals that the video is a fake . . . especially if you are good at using photoshop :)
posted by radio_mookie at 7:28 AM on December 14, 2001
posted by radio_mookie at 7:28 AM on December 14, 2001
psst...the Holocaust never happened either. 6 million Jews are living in seclusion in Argentina.
I read the Turner Diaries for educational purposes. What is the equivalent for the left wing idiots?
posted by quercus at 7:44 AM on December 14, 2001
I read the Turner Diaries for educational purposes. What is the equivalent for the left wing idiots?
posted by quercus at 7:44 AM on December 14, 2001
Thank you for that brilliant, fact-filled defense of the tape, quercus. How silly of anyone to question their government, especially when all of life's answers can be found in sarcasm.
Question: does quercus's post count grounds for invoking Godwin's law?
posted by jpoulos at 8:28 AM on December 14, 2001
Question: does quercus's post count grounds for invoking Godwin's law?
posted by jpoulos at 8:28 AM on December 14, 2001
"grounds for invoking Godwin's law" Why? Are you a post Nazi?
posted by mischief at 9:02 AM on December 14, 2001
posted by mischief at 9:02 AM on December 14, 2001
quercus, we told you not to tell anyone about argentina. be expecting a visit.
posted by th3ph17 at 9:40 AM on December 14, 2001
posted by th3ph17 at 9:40 AM on December 14, 2001
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posted by fvw at 8:29 AM on December 13, 2001