Around 2,800 people died
August 16, 2002 4:17 PM Subscribe
Around 2,800 people died as a result of the September 11 attacks. This includes 19 hijackers, of which the remains of nine have been identified. What are we to do with their remains?
"To the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any friends or family members to try to claim the remains of these people," said Jeff Killeen, spokesman for the FBI field office in Pittsburgh.
uh...that's b/c if they did you would detain them Mr. Eff Be Eye man...
posted by buz46 at 4:28 PM on August 16, 2002
uh...that's b/c if they did you would detain them Mr. Eff Be Eye man...
posted by buz46 at 4:28 PM on August 16, 2002
buz46: You have to read all of Antigone first, then answer some more, detailed questions.
posted by raysmj at 4:29 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by raysmj at 4:29 PM on August 16, 2002
I think it's utterly insane that this is becoming a politicized issue. But since it is, I suggest we cremate their remains, add the ashes to a porcelain mixture and make toilet bowls to be installed somewhere near the World Trade Center memorial, thus allowing thousands and thousands of people to pay their proper respects to these guys.
posted by TBoneMcCool at 4:33 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by TBoneMcCool at 4:33 PM on August 16, 2002
I would give each a televised-worldwide religious burial-one set of remains given to each religious group: Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, etc--all except for Muslims. Each religious group would have to bury the hijacker remains as if the person were a member of that group.
posted by amberglow at 4:42 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by amberglow at 4:42 PM on August 16, 2002
From Antigone:
Such be thy plea:-I, then, will go to heap the earth above the brother whom I love.
Um...I didn't say I loved the Terrorists, I just said we should "bury em" and be done with it.
I don't see the point of any ritualistic desecrating of the remains, i.e. urinating on them; I think that's more attention than they deserve.
I'm gonna try to read the rest of Antigone now, I should be done sometime next week.
posted by buz46 at 4:52 PM on August 16, 2002
Such be thy plea:-I, then, will go to heap the earth above the brother whom I love.
Um...I didn't say I loved the Terrorists, I just said we should "bury em" and be done with it.
I don't see the point of any ritualistic desecrating of the remains, i.e. urinating on them; I think that's more attention than they deserve.
I'm gonna try to read the rest of Antigone now, I should be done sometime next week.
posted by buz46 at 4:52 PM on August 16, 2002
I remember us giving a hero's funeral to fellow Afghanistans who were fighting on our side. The US military even had a Muslim funeral and filmed it for their relatives, out of respect. They died as hero's, so treated as one in death.
What are we to do with their remains?
Let them remain.
Where? where they lye.
Why? for the fowl and the insects of the world to discard......
They do think they are in paradise, folks.
What would a person of high prestige in the Middle East do to you(your a murder)? Your family they would respect.
But for you, they probably wouldn't let the family dog piss on your grave.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:52 PM on August 16, 2002
What are we to do with their remains?
Let them remain.
Where? where they lye.
Why? for the fowl and the insects of the world to discard......
They do think they are in paradise, folks.
What would a person of high prestige in the Middle East do to you(your a murder)? Your family they would respect.
But for you, they probably wouldn't let the family dog piss on your grave.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:52 PM on August 16, 2002
From the CNN article: "I think in Islam, you're supposed to be buried whole, so I would take them and scatter them all over the place," said Donn Marshall, whose wife, Shelley, died at the Pentagon. "They don't deserve any kind of religious courtesies."
I just love how Christians can be respectful of other faiths. Don't get me wrong, the terrorists were bad evil people. But scattering their remains to violate their religious beliefs (if that is indeed correct) does not show any form of respect to the 99.99994% of Islam that are not terrorists.
Scattering the remains -- or mixing the remains into toilets -- is awfully barbaric and reminiscent of people who would mount the head of their enemy to a stick and parade through the village. I'd like to think we're beyond that.
posted by birdherder at 4:53 PM on August 16, 2002
I just love how Christians can be respectful of other faiths. Don't get me wrong, the terrorists were bad evil people. But scattering their remains to violate their religious beliefs (if that is indeed correct) does not show any form of respect to the 99.99994% of Islam that are not terrorists.
Scattering the remains -- or mixing the remains into toilets -- is awfully barbaric and reminiscent of people who would mount the head of their enemy to a stick and parade through the village. I'd like to think we're beyond that.
posted by birdherder at 4:53 PM on August 16, 2002
Send them to the Saudis. They paid for them.
posted by timeistight at 4:57 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by timeistight at 4:57 PM on August 16, 2002
I'm sorry, I see my original post seems a little vindictive. I hope this thread doesn't turn into an anti-Muslim rant.
It would be utterly wrong and stupid to blame all of Islam for the actions of those 19 suicidal jerks. But as for those 19 jerks: I have absolutely no sympathy for them.
I say we should just throw them out with the rest of the trash ... dammit, I'm slipping into vindictive territory again. Maybe I'd better move on to a happier thread.
posted by TBoneMcCool at 4:58 PM on August 16, 2002
It would be utterly wrong and stupid to blame all of Islam for the actions of those 19 suicidal jerks. But as for those 19 jerks: I have absolutely no sympathy for them.
I say we should just throw them out with the rest of the trash ... dammit, I'm slipping into vindictive territory again. Maybe I'd better move on to a happier thread.
posted by TBoneMcCool at 4:58 PM on August 16, 2002
Amberglow, first welcome to Meta. ;)
I would give each a televised-worldwide religious burial-one set of remains given to each religious group...all except for Muslims
When is Terrorism, a religion or a faith? I'm Anti-terrorist & Agnostic-terrorist(I know it exist, yet I wish not). But no one religion should be shamed for terrorism because of a member. Unless terrorism is preached from the pulpit, then a cult.
posted by thomcatspike at 5:01 PM on August 16, 2002
I would give each a televised-worldwide religious burial-one set of remains given to each religious group...all except for Muslims
When is Terrorism, a religion or a faith? I'm Anti-terrorist & Agnostic-terrorist(I know it exist, yet I wish not). But no one religion should be shamed for terrorism because of a member. Unless terrorism is preached from the pulpit, then a cult.
posted by thomcatspike at 5:01 PM on August 16, 2002
Presumably there's a protocol for some sort of ultra-minimalistic burial of unclaimed remains, no? So what's the problem? Intentionally defiling the bodies seems petty and pointless, and no one cares to pony up for a real funeral, so just do whatever we do with homeless people who freeze to death on the sidewalk...
posted by sexualchocolate at 5:07 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by sexualchocolate at 5:07 PM on August 16, 2002
I would give each a televised-worldwide religious burial-one set of remains given to each religious group...all except for Muslims
I'm not even going to bother.... yawn....
posted by Aikido at 5:09 PM on August 16, 2002
I'm not even going to bother.... yawn....
posted by Aikido at 5:09 PM on August 16, 2002
Alas, deliberate desecration is out of the question. But marked graves of any kind would be problematic: both for those who would honor them, and those who would want to do worse. Burial at sea would seem too much an honor. Almost any place they end up, given the high profile, is going to get disclosed.
Maybe they should be buried far from public access -- like Guantanamo. An unguarded remote island would be an invitation to vandals or grave-robbers; but then, so might be something close to lots of bored military types. Or at the side of the Fresh Kills dump -- but that would seem insulting, another provocation, and also too close to the unfiltered remains of victims.
We can't put them anyplace near other honorable burials, anyplace controlled by the government (e.g. military cemeteries), or anyplace new, because the NIMBY contingent would go nuclear.
Where does NYC bury other unwanted murderers? Rikers Island? No, but nearby.
posted by dhartung at 5:09 PM on August 16, 2002
Maybe they should be buried far from public access -- like Guantanamo. An unguarded remote island would be an invitation to vandals or grave-robbers; but then, so might be something close to lots of bored military types. Or at the side of the Fresh Kills dump -- but that would seem insulting, another provocation, and also too close to the unfiltered remains of victims.
We can't put them anyplace near other honorable burials, anyplace controlled by the government (e.g. military cemeteries), or anyplace new, because the NIMBY contingent would go nuclear.
Where does NYC bury other unwanted murderers? Rikers Island? No, but nearby.
posted by dhartung at 5:09 PM on August 16, 2002
Is there really no procedure for the police to dispose of unclaimed human remains?
Or is this just more 9/11 related entertainment to help someone make a political point (look at me, I'm tough on the remains of terrorists) and/or money (exciting headline and editorial column)?
(On preview - do you really think a reported looked dug this up because it was high profile? Or was it leaked by someone wanting to get a bit of press coverage for their department? Or am I just too cynical?)
posted by andrew cooke at 5:14 PM on August 16, 2002
Or is this just more 9/11 related entertainment to help someone make a political point (look at me, I'm tough on the remains of terrorists) and/or money (exciting headline and editorial column)?
(On preview - do you really think a reported looked dug this up because it was high profile? Or was it leaked by someone wanting to get a bit of press coverage for their department? Or am I just too cynical?)
posted by andrew cooke at 5:14 PM on August 16, 2002
Hi Thom--I probably would have said the same thing if this was Metafilter circa 1250 about those crusaders pillaging and killing and looting their way to Jerusalem, or if it was the Spanish inquisition days etc...I think i'm being vindictive too, about excluding Muslims....but I was trying to make a sort of brotherhood of man point-that we're all on earth here together bla bla bla....
I absolutely believe any sort of terrorism or killing at all in the name of any faith is horrendous (or because certain leaders in a faith continually preach that others are non-human, or that the best way to heaven is by killing the hated, etc.), and I believe these people were indoctrinated with a religiously-based hatred for america (much like a cult or sect, in a way).
(meanwhile, I've posting for like 3 weeks already--you didn't read any of my previous posts or comments--way to make me feel wanted Thom!)
posted by amberglow at 5:20 PM on August 16, 2002
I absolutely believe any sort of terrorism or killing at all in the name of any faith is horrendous (or because certain leaders in a faith continually preach that others are non-human, or that the best way to heaven is by killing the hated, etc.), and I believe these people were indoctrinated with a religiously-based hatred for america (much like a cult or sect, in a way).
(meanwhile, I've posting for like 3 weeks already--you didn't read any of my previous posts or comments--way to make me feel wanted Thom!)
posted by amberglow at 5:20 PM on August 16, 2002
Well we could fashion the bones into a marching band's worth of crude wind and percussion instruments. Then once a year, say on Sept 11th, we'd assemble a band and dress them all in black, perhaps with garishly painted skeleton faces. Then they could trudge around ground zero, playing Sousa marches and other patriotic ditties on these instruments of memory.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 5:53 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 5:53 PM on August 16, 2002
Don't get me wrong, the terrorists were bad evil people. But scattering their remains to violate their religious beliefs (if that is indeed correct) does not show any form of respect to the 99.99994% of Islam that are not terrorists.
The opinion of Muslims should not really matter in this issue, especially supporters of Al Qaeda. A muslim student I talked to about this issue said "they were bad men, they were not true muslims." How many muslims feel this way? If so, the method of burial does not really matter. These men deserve a burial befitting a common criminal, nothing should be done to set them apart, in my opinion. I actually think the ashes should be returned to the families, I don't know why. I first thought "well, if they're muslims, they ought to be buried in pig skins, that would be a nice insult" but now I don't care anymore, especially because I don't consider them true muslims (much in the way someone who kills an abortion doctor, is not, in my opinion, a true christian).
Any petty act of revenge will look, well, petty, I think.
posted by insomnyuk at 5:58 PM on August 16, 2002
The opinion of Muslims should not really matter in this issue, especially supporters of Al Qaeda. A muslim student I talked to about this issue said "they were bad men, they were not true muslims." How many muslims feel this way? If so, the method of burial does not really matter. These men deserve a burial befitting a common criminal, nothing should be done to set them apart, in my opinion. I actually think the ashes should be returned to the families, I don't know why. I first thought "well, if they're muslims, they ought to be buried in pig skins, that would be a nice insult" but now I don't care anymore, especially because I don't consider them true muslims (much in the way someone who kills an abortion doctor, is not, in my opinion, a true christian).
Any petty act of revenge will look, well, petty, I think.
posted by insomnyuk at 5:58 PM on August 16, 2002
"Any petty act of revenge will look, well, petty, I think."
insomnyuk, if I had a sister I would want her to marry you.
Actually, in a few years my daughter will be old enough to marry you.
Don't even think about it.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:05 PM on August 16, 2002
insomnyuk, if I had a sister I would want her to marry you.
Actually, in a few years my daughter will be old enough to marry you.
Don't even think about it.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:05 PM on August 16, 2002
Uhm... Who cares? None of my damn business. I mean, how many people died this week in the US of A? Of those, how many remains were unclaimed? Of the unclaimed, how many merited a MeFi post? Right. Zero. Move along folks, nothing to see here...
posted by ehintz at 6:06 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by ehintz at 6:06 PM on August 16, 2002
barbaric and reminiscent of people who would mount the head of their enemy to a stick and parade through the village.
are the heads still intact?
posted by stbalbach at 6:13 PM on August 16, 2002
are the heads still intact?
posted by stbalbach at 6:13 PM on August 16, 2002
Walter should scatter them over the Pacific, but into the wind, so the ashes fly all over the Dude. Oh wait... terrorists, not Donnie...
In that case, nothing. Let them be absorbed into bureaucracy, never to be seen again.
posted by The Michael The at 6:22 PM on August 16, 2002
In that case, nothing. Let them be absorbed into bureaucracy, never to be seen again.
posted by The Michael The at 6:22 PM on August 16, 2002
are the heads still intact?
If the heads are still intact I'd like to change my answer to allow for a couple of ventriloquists.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 6:26 PM on August 16, 2002
If the heads are still intact I'd like to change my answer to allow for a couple of ventriloquists.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 6:26 PM on August 16, 2002
Ehintz, don't be so dismissive. I, for one, find this a fascinating moral dilemma: how do we, as a civilized nation, treat the remains of our enemies?
Since I believe that our corporal bodies are mere mortal coils that we shuffle off (so to speak), I hold no remains sacrosanct..but that is just me, personally. Acting as a group, I see nothing wrong in giving the dead terrorists a minimum of respect by at least acknowledging their common humanity.
A small, separate burial ground far from the madding crowd, would be fine until such a time as someone comes to claim them. Guantanamo Bay sounds perfect.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:29 PM on August 16, 2002
Since I believe that our corporal bodies are mere mortal coils that we shuffle off (so to speak), I hold no remains sacrosanct..but that is just me, personally. Acting as a group, I see nothing wrong in giving the dead terrorists a minimum of respect by at least acknowledging their common humanity.
A small, separate burial ground far from the madding crowd, would be fine until such a time as someone comes to claim them. Guantanamo Bay sounds perfect.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:29 PM on August 16, 2002
"Who cares? None of my damn business."
Then why are you cluttering up this thread? Get out, and leave the discussion to people who do care.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:33 PM on August 16, 2002
Then why are you cluttering up this thread? Get out, and leave the discussion to people who do care.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:33 PM on August 16, 2002
What insomnyk and gravy said.
As a civilized country, the US should offer the remains to the Saudi government for it to return to the families. If the families do not want to claim the bodies, the remains should be dealt with as we do for the countless John Does that end up in the morgue.
posted by birdherder at 6:41 PM on August 16, 2002
As a civilized country, the US should offer the remains to the Saudi government for it to return to the families. If the families do not want to claim the bodies, the remains should be dealt with as we do for the countless John Does that end up in the morgue.
posted by birdherder at 6:41 PM on August 16, 2002
The opinion of Muslims should not really matter in this issue, especially supporters of Al Qaeda.
Regarding Al Qaeda, you're right. Regarding Muslims, why should their opinion matter less or more than any other 3rd party unrelated to the terrorists or victims?
A muslim student I talked to about this issue said "they were bad men, they were not true muslims."
Wait, I thought their opinions shouldn't matter...
How many muslims feel this way?
Why are you asking? I thought their opinions shouldn't matter. Look, in the end, I don't care much either, but I don't presume to think that my opinion matters more than anyone elses just because of what religion I practice.
posted by pitchblende at 6:53 PM on August 16, 2002
Regarding Al Qaeda, you're right. Regarding Muslims, why should their opinion matter less or more than any other 3rd party unrelated to the terrorists or victims?
A muslim student I talked to about this issue said "they were bad men, they were not true muslims."
Wait, I thought their opinions shouldn't matter...
How many muslims feel this way?
Why are you asking? I thought their opinions shouldn't matter. Look, in the end, I don't care much either, but I don't presume to think that my opinion matters more than anyone elses just because of what religion I practice.
posted by pitchblende at 6:53 PM on August 16, 2002
...acknowledging their common humanity.
A small, separate burial ground far from the madding crowd
But Secret, isn't this denying their common humanity? The madding crowd is also common humanity, and if this thread is any indication, more people want to do Mad Max-ish or desecrating things to the remains than to quietly place them out of reach.
This whole topic is immensely interesting! Thanks crash!
posted by amberglow at 6:58 PM on August 16, 2002
A small, separate burial ground far from the madding crowd
But Secret, isn't this denying their common humanity? The madding crowd is also common humanity, and if this thread is any indication, more people want to do Mad Max-ish or desecrating things to the remains than to quietly place them out of reach.
This whole topic is immensely interesting! Thanks crash!
posted by amberglow at 6:58 PM on August 16, 2002
It is worth remembering that many Muslims were killed in the attacks (at least the WTC attacks) as well. The whole point is that the perpetrators terrorized, in many respects, a proxy of the modern multicultural world. So if we're going to take some sort of survey on this, everyone has a valid input.
Personally, I don't understand the fuss. The unclaimed criminal remains should be disposed of according to standard protocol. Just because they happen to be the remains of especially big assholes doesn't mean we should depart from standards.
posted by donkeyschlong at 7:04 PM on August 16, 2002
Personally, I don't understand the fuss. The unclaimed criminal remains should be disposed of according to standard protocol. Just because they happen to be the remains of especially big assholes doesn't mean we should depart from standards.
posted by donkeyschlong at 7:04 PM on August 16, 2002
Don't any of you wonder why jewish people haven't asked for the sort of thing that has been demanded here as regards nazi criminals? Has anybody heard of any jewish leader asking for the ashes of a nazi war criminal to be turned into a public pis-pot? I think not. Something about dignity and the fact that pissing on someone's ashes isn't the same as bringing them to justice. I'm an atheist and dead bodies for me don't have semantic value but even this shit is beyond gross. Live out your fantasies somewhere else.
posted by Zootoon at 7:09 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by Zootoon at 7:09 PM on August 16, 2002
We should bury the Muslim remains in the most respectful and considerate way possible. Not because they deserve it, but because America has a responsibility to rise above the crap that the terrorists are spewing. They feed on hate. Disposing of the remains respectfully, as would befit their beliefs, would be a message that cannot be distorted or twisted to the perverted agenda of those terrorists who still survive the dead.
It also would inadvertently insult those Muslims who are not terrorists. They would be upset that the people giving their belief structure a bad name would get such aspiring treatment. I would hope that would further motivate true believers of Islam to weed out their own crop.
The one thing that the Christian God and the Muslim God share is that they do not fuel hatred. It is certain men who interpret the teachings of Jesus & Muhammed that are the ones who fuel the hatred. Unnecessarily desecrating the remains of those who caused the tragedy of Nine Eleven would only further the hatred.
Enough have died. We have the power to stop that hatred.
I don't hate the terrorists. I feel sorry for them.
Imagine a man with a gun putting it to the head of a buddhist monk. The monk would stare back at the man and tears would come to his eyes. He would not be crying for his own life. He would cry for the man with the gun.
That is how I feel. We can't keep fueling this hate. The future of humanity is at stake.
posted by ZachsMind at 7:12 PM on August 16, 2002
It also would inadvertently insult those Muslims who are not terrorists. They would be upset that the people giving their belief structure a bad name would get such aspiring treatment. I would hope that would further motivate true believers of Islam to weed out their own crop.
The one thing that the Christian God and the Muslim God share is that they do not fuel hatred. It is certain men who interpret the teachings of Jesus & Muhammed that are the ones who fuel the hatred. Unnecessarily desecrating the remains of those who caused the tragedy of Nine Eleven would only further the hatred.
Enough have died. We have the power to stop that hatred.
I don't hate the terrorists. I feel sorry for them.
Imagine a man with a gun putting it to the head of a buddhist monk. The monk would stare back at the man and tears would come to his eyes. He would not be crying for his own life. He would cry for the man with the gun.
That is how I feel. We can't keep fueling this hate. The future of humanity is at stake.
posted by ZachsMind at 7:12 PM on August 16, 2002
Although I'm not the only one saying this, I think this is going to be an unpopular post: I suggest we politely, courteously, and quietly return the remains to the families to dispose of as they see fit. If we believe in the "moral superiority of the West", this would demonstrate it more concretely than a thousand op/ed pieces ever could. Can you imagine that feeling? "Here are the remains of your husband/son/father/brother, who murdered thousands of our innocents. We recovered all of him we could."
Shame is dead in the US, but it is still a powerful force in many other cultures, and I think something of this sort could change some minds over there.
I also don't think they should be buried on US soil, period. They don't deserve it.
I didn't know anyone who died as a result of the attacks personally, so if this is offensive to anyone who did, I apologize in advance: offense is not my intention.
Preview: What ZachsMind said
posted by trondant at 7:29 PM on August 16, 2002
Shame is dead in the US, but it is still a powerful force in many other cultures, and I think something of this sort could change some minds over there.
I also don't think they should be buried on US soil, period. They don't deserve it.
I didn't know anyone who died as a result of the attacks personally, so if this is offensive to anyone who did, I apologize in advance: offense is not my intention.
Preview: What ZachsMind said
posted by trondant at 7:29 PM on August 16, 2002
We have no punishments to fit these crimes. Are we so sure we have rituals to fit these deaths?
posted by WolfDaddy at 7:29 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by WolfDaddy at 7:29 PM on August 16, 2002
beautifully said, but we're really not that enlightened, as a society especially...we're engendering more hate (in the middle east especially) as we speak.
what will happen to the remains?
posted by amberglow at 7:29 PM on August 16, 2002
what will happen to the remains?
posted by amberglow at 7:29 PM on August 16, 2002
All of the points are good ones, but when I think about the hundreds of good people who died, children who lost parents, parents who lost children, etc., I can't seem to stifle the anger. Flush 'em down the latrine. If you go and kill someone I love, then yeah...I think I'll likely hate you. That's my personal feeling.
Objectively, I really don't know what we should do with the remains, assuming that whatever we do could somehow be leveraged in the name of diplomacy and the balance of world power.
posted by Modem Ovary at 7:45 PM on August 16, 2002
Objectively, I really don't know what we should do with the remains, assuming that whatever we do could somehow be leveraged in the name of diplomacy and the balance of world power.
posted by Modem Ovary at 7:45 PM on August 16, 2002
Why are you asking? I thought their opinions shouldn't matter.
Well, yeah, I was semi-contradicting myself in order to answer an argument if someone were to make a powerful case where the opinions of foreign Muslims does matter (because that issue seemed to have been brought up).
what will happen to the remains?
Who exactly is in charge of them? It looks like the FBI is in possession of the remains right now. Well, I don't think revenge is the right thing to do, nor is it even possible, and I don't think even Bush (who will undoubtedly have a say in this) would stoop to something as low as grave-pissing. Whatever happens, their graves ought not be made public. I think it should be up to their families. Amberglow, I think you underestimate the American public (I know I always do). After the attacks, I was really worried that local mosques were going to be vandalized or worse, and the same for their visitors. Unfortunately, one mentally unstable man killed an Indian Sikh, but I believe that was the extent of it. I think the American public, as a whole, still has to come to terms with this, and demanding that we sully their remains really won't help make that happen. Hopefully there is more grace and mercy to be found than what you expect.
Whatever happens, many people will be displeased with the result, and it will probably become politicized, just like everything else is.
aww shucks crash, now I'm embarassed. I promise to stay away from your daughter, though. How old is she?
posted by insomnyuk at 7:54 PM on August 16, 2002
Well, yeah, I was semi-contradicting myself in order to answer an argument if someone were to make a powerful case where the opinions of foreign Muslims does matter (because that issue seemed to have been brought up).
what will happen to the remains?
Who exactly is in charge of them? It looks like the FBI is in possession of the remains right now. Well, I don't think revenge is the right thing to do, nor is it even possible, and I don't think even Bush (who will undoubtedly have a say in this) would stoop to something as low as grave-pissing. Whatever happens, their graves ought not be made public. I think it should be up to their families. Amberglow, I think you underestimate the American public (I know I always do). After the attacks, I was really worried that local mosques were going to be vandalized or worse, and the same for their visitors. Unfortunately, one mentally unstable man killed an Indian Sikh, but I believe that was the extent of it. I think the American public, as a whole, still has to come to terms with this, and demanding that we sully their remains really won't help make that happen. Hopefully there is more grace and mercy to be found than what you expect.
Whatever happens, many people will be displeased with the result, and it will probably become politicized, just like everything else is.
aww shucks crash, now I'm embarassed. I promise to stay away from your daughter, though. How old is she?
posted by insomnyuk at 7:54 PM on August 16, 2002
amberglow: "beautifully said, but we're really not that enlightened.."
Oh really?
"There never was a good war or a bad peace." - Benjamin Franklin
"The real enemy can always be met and conquered, or won over. Real antagonism is based on love, a love which has not recognized itself." - Henry Miller
"How does one become a butterfly?" she asked pensively.
"You must want to fly so much that you are willing to give up being a caterpillar."
~ Trina Paulus, Hope for the Flowers
A University Professor went to see Nan-in, a Zen Master, to find out more about Zen.
As their meeting continued Nan-in was pouring Tea and continued to pour even though the cup was overflowing.
The Professor cried. "Enough! No more will go in!"
Nan-in replied "Like this cup you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
"All great deeds and all great thoughts have a ridiculous beginning." - Albert Camus
"If a man wants to be of the greatest possible value to his fellow-creatures, let him begin the long, solitary task of perfecting himself." - Robertson Davies
"In war, resolution; in defeat, defiance; in victory, magnanimity; in peace, goodwill." - Winston Churchill
I think humanity has the potential to be much more enlightened than one gives it credit.
=)
posted by ZachsMind at 7:55 PM on August 16, 2002
Oh really?
"There never was a good war or a bad peace." - Benjamin Franklin
"The real enemy can always be met and conquered, or won over. Real antagonism is based on love, a love which has not recognized itself." - Henry Miller
"How does one become a butterfly?" she asked pensively.
"You must want to fly so much that you are willing to give up being a caterpillar."
~ Trina Paulus, Hope for the Flowers
A University Professor went to see Nan-in, a Zen Master, to find out more about Zen.
As their meeting continued Nan-in was pouring Tea and continued to pour even though the cup was overflowing.
The Professor cried. "Enough! No more will go in!"
Nan-in replied "Like this cup you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
"All great deeds and all great thoughts have a ridiculous beginning." - Albert Camus
"If a man wants to be of the greatest possible value to his fellow-creatures, let him begin the long, solitary task of perfecting himself." - Robertson Davies
"In war, resolution; in defeat, defiance; in victory, magnanimity; in peace, goodwill." - Winston Churchill
I think humanity has the potential to be much more enlightened than one gives it credit.
=)
posted by ZachsMind at 7:55 PM on August 16, 2002
I can't even imagine how this has even become an issue.
Why aren't they being buried in the way any other unclaimed body would be buried?
posted by ChaosKitty at 7:59 PM on August 16, 2002
Why aren't they being buried in the way any other unclaimed body would be buried?
posted by ChaosKitty at 7:59 PM on August 16, 2002
There are times when the most noble, the most frightening, the most courageous thing a man can do, is to not strike back.
posted by ZachsMind at 8:00 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by ZachsMind at 8:00 PM on August 16, 2002
Carve them up. Sell the pieces on eBay. Let the people decide and let the money go to all sorts of fun things like anti-terrorism and survivor benefits, and a warning to the next ten generations. Or just feed 'em to the dog.
posted by jmccorm at 8:05 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by jmccorm at 8:05 PM on August 16, 2002
I'm surprised no one has suggested Yucca Mountain, Nevada as a possible disposal site. It would be one way of being certain that the remains would be undisturbed.
posted by SPrintF at 8:09 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by SPrintF at 8:09 PM on August 16, 2002
I hope i am underestimating, believe me, but personal experience and history has taught me that only individuals can be given the benefit of the doubt (and then only sometimes), and groups (whether society-sized or smaller) can't be expected to be above human emotions or to automatically do the right thing for the world at large.
and on preview, see jmccorm and others on this thread and in the world
posted by amberglow at 8:09 PM on August 16, 2002
and on preview, see jmccorm and others on this thread and in the world
posted by amberglow at 8:09 PM on August 16, 2002
Also, look at how fetishized the remains of the victims have become. There are still people in Staten Island or Jersey doing DNA identification tests on bone fragments and hair. And one of the big problems with redevelopment of the site of the WTC is that it really is a mass grave.
posted by amberglow at 8:27 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by amberglow at 8:27 PM on August 16, 2002
ZachsMind, Insomnyuk: Thank you. Your posts set an example that I look up to.
posted by azazello at 8:41 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by azazello at 8:41 PM on August 16, 2002
ZachsMind, I think I love you.
posted by donkeyschlong at 8:43 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by donkeyschlong at 8:43 PM on August 16, 2002
Great posts ZachsMind
posted by birdherder at 8:46 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by birdherder at 8:46 PM on August 16, 2002
I'm confused. Did amberglow agree with me, or call me an idiot?
posted by jmccorm at 8:47 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by jmccorm at 8:47 PM on August 16, 2002
OK, I retract my previous ashes in the toilet proposal and bow to the toilet-free wisdom of ZachsMind.
posted by TBoneMcCool at 8:47 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by TBoneMcCool at 8:47 PM on August 16, 2002
I used your post as an example, jmccorm, of how some of the suggestions were desecrating. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.
You're not an idiot at all (well, at least I don't think so--I thought everyone here at MF was brilliant)
I don't agree with your suggestion but I like how the profits could be used.
posted by amberglow at 8:57 PM on August 16, 2002
You're not an idiot at all (well, at least I don't think so--I thought everyone here at MF was brilliant)
I don't agree with your suggestion but I like how the profits could be used.
posted by amberglow at 8:57 PM on August 16, 2002
I thought everyone here at MF was brilliant
They were until you new people showed up.
*Bah-da-bum*
I kid because I love.
posted by evanizer at 9:31 PM on August 16, 2002
They were until you new people showed up.
*Bah-da-bum*
I kid because I love.
posted by evanizer at 9:31 PM on August 16, 2002
There's also this:
p.s. Love ya, ZachsMind, but please lighten up on the bold.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:37 PM on August 16, 2002
With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan--to do all which may achieve and cherish a just, and a lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations.-- Abraham Lincoln, "Second Inaugural Address"
p.s. Love ya, ZachsMind, but please lighten up on the bold.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:37 PM on August 16, 2002
Throw 'em in the trash like the garbage they are.
I don't hate the terrorists. I feel sorry for them.
I hate 'em with every fiber of my being. As human beings we all have choices in life. When you choose to kill 184 people I'm not likely to treat you or feel for you as I would my fellow man.
posted by owillis at 10:12 PM on August 16, 2002
I don't hate the terrorists. I feel sorry for them.
I hate 'em with every fiber of my being. As human beings we all have choices in life. When you choose to kill 184 people I'm not likely to treat you or feel for you as I would my fellow man.
posted by owillis at 10:12 PM on August 16, 2002
"I hate 'em with every fiber of my being."
I hate what they did. Hating the people who did it is a waste of energy, like a dog running in circles trying to catch his own tail. I merely suggest that maybe the hating stops one heart at a time, and I hope to do my small part in stopping that hate. But please feel free to expend your energy however you wish. You are fully justified feeling the way you do.
"...but please lighten up on the bold."
Yeah I know. I don't use bold very often nowadays. Felt it appropriate just this once. I'll lay off the pounding of the keyboard. *smirk*
G'night all. Thanks for the kind words. Gonna get some sleep and pray the world is, and all of you are, still here when I wake up. =)
posted by ZachsMind at 10:20 PM on August 16, 2002
I hate what they did. Hating the people who did it is a waste of energy, like a dog running in circles trying to catch his own tail. I merely suggest that maybe the hating stops one heart at a time, and I hope to do my small part in stopping that hate. But please feel free to expend your energy however you wish. You are fully justified feeling the way you do.
"...but please lighten up on the bold."
Yeah I know. I don't use bold very often nowadays. Felt it appropriate just this once. I'll lay off the pounding of the keyboard. *smirk*
G'night all. Thanks for the kind words. Gonna get some sleep and pray the world is, and all of you are, still here when I wake up. =)
posted by ZachsMind at 10:20 PM on August 16, 2002
I think the problem is that any identifiable grave might become a monument to people who are villains to most of the country, but martyrs to a few. Perhaps something unmarked would be appropriate.
posted by Alison at 10:37 PM on August 16, 2002
posted by Alison at 10:37 PM on August 16, 2002
Throw 'em in the trash like the garbage they are.
I agree with owillis again.
posted by hama7 at 1:00 AM on August 17, 2002
I agree with owillis again.
posted by hama7 at 1:00 AM on August 17, 2002
Lets strap them onto our bombs with foam dallas cowboy hats.
posted by Keyser Soze at 1:52 AM on August 17, 2002
posted by Keyser Soze at 1:52 AM on August 17, 2002
NY State law (assuming these are the WTC hijackers) is very clear on this and allows the use of unclaimed bodies for medical purposes.
Section 245.06, F.S., requires any person who comes into the possession or control of a dead human body which is unclaimed or required to be buried at public expense to immediately notify the Division of Universities of the Department of Education(division), or its designee, regarding the availability of the body for the purposes of medical science.
I sincerely doubt that the remains in question will be of any use to medical science but disposing of the remains in this manner avoids public spectacle, negates the possibility of creating a shrine and just may benefit someone else. Proper disposal of human remains is not something that should be politicized, current statutes are more than adequate and the remains of these criminals should be treated the exact same way as any other murderers body that goes unclaimed.
posted by cedar at 4:09 AM on August 17, 2002
Section 245.06, F.S., requires any person who comes into the possession or control of a dead human body which is unclaimed or required to be buried at public expense to immediately notify the Division of Universities of the Department of Education(division), or its designee, regarding the availability of the body for the purposes of medical science.
I sincerely doubt that the remains in question will be of any use to medical science but disposing of the remains in this manner avoids public spectacle, negates the possibility of creating a shrine and just may benefit someone else. Proper disposal of human remains is not something that should be politicized, current statutes are more than adequate and the remains of these criminals should be treated the exact same way as any other murderers body that goes unclaimed.
posted by cedar at 4:09 AM on August 17, 2002
Just bury them normally. More evil people have had better burials. They're just dead flesh anyway, I don't see how taking vengeance on them now accomplishes anything. They're dead.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 9:36 AM on August 17, 2002
posted by Lord Chancellor at 9:36 AM on August 17, 2002
strap them onto our bombs with foam dallas cowboy hats
Best idea yet
posted by stbalbach at 11:30 AM on August 17, 2002
Best idea yet
posted by stbalbach at 11:30 AM on August 17, 2002
Ceder - These are not the WTC hijackers, as reported in the first line of the article: "Among the human remains painstakingly sorted
from the Pentagon and Pennsylvania crash sites of September 11 are those of nine of the hijackers. "
We must follow the law as prescribed, however, I still like the idea of storing them in the Mutter, if only for practical reasons, if we ever need to look at the remains in the future, they will be properly stored, and easily accessable, plus there will be no "final resting place" for all the oddballs to use as a shrine.
posted by lilboo at 11:48 AM on August 17, 2002
from the Pentagon and Pennsylvania crash sites of September 11 are those of nine of the hijackers. "
We must follow the law as prescribed, however, I still like the idea of storing them in the Mutter, if only for practical reasons, if we ever need to look at the remains in the future, they will be properly stored, and easily accessable, plus there will be no "final resting place" for all the oddballs to use as a shrine.
posted by lilboo at 11:48 AM on August 17, 2002
Another option: Analyse their DNA and compare it to the DNA of their families. This would either rule out or shed more light on the possibility of identity theft.
posted by metaforth at 2:49 PM on August 17, 2002
posted by metaforth at 2:49 PM on August 17, 2002
good idea, metaforth, but the families will call it a Jewish conspiracy and refuse, probably on the advice of the Saudi gov't.
posted by goethean at 6:02 PM on August 20, 2002
posted by goethean at 6:02 PM on August 20, 2002
Tangent: I would like to see some, or all of those memorial and missing posters which are still around town made into permanent fixtures on the streets of Manhattan. In other words, randomly placed on buildings and/or fences on streets in boxes, or whatever would preserve them.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:39 PM on August 20, 2002
posted by ParisParamus at 7:39 PM on August 20, 2002
Interesting as the idea of a group of med school students seeing one of the terrorists under the sheet in gross anatomy is, I can't imagine the remains would be in any condition suitable for study or scientific gain.
It seems like dhartung has the best idea, to bury them somewhere isolated, unmarked, and relatively inaccessible. Not only because no American town would welcome the graves with open arms, but also because it seems like they would be a prime target for desecration, and constantly needing to, well, rebury them after some ghoulish golddigger looks for a fingerbone to throw on ebay would be an expensive chore.
If not that, well, the have been identified. Send the ashes to their families, enough taxpayer money will go into (and has already gone into) cleaning the mess they made, let their families deal with the cost of burial and upkeep of graves.
posted by Kellydamnit at 9:41 PM on August 20, 2002
It seems like dhartung has the best idea, to bury them somewhere isolated, unmarked, and relatively inaccessible. Not only because no American town would welcome the graves with open arms, but also because it seems like they would be a prime target for desecration, and constantly needing to, well, rebury them after some ghoulish golddigger looks for a fingerbone to throw on ebay would be an expensive chore.
If not that, well, the have been identified. Send the ashes to their families, enough taxpayer money will go into (and has already gone into) cleaning the mess they made, let their families deal with the cost of burial and upkeep of graves.
posted by Kellydamnit at 9:41 PM on August 20, 2002
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I'm gonna say.....Bury em...
Did I win!?
posted by buz46 at 4:23 PM on August 16, 2002