Breast self-exams may be a waste of time.
October 2, 2002 11:34 AM Subscribe
Breast self-exams may be a waste of time. But what about exams given by others?
But what about exams given by others? I'm obviously spending much too much time on Fark (oh, and MeFi too, of course).
posted by 314/ at 11:59 AM on October 2, 2002
posted by 314/ at 11:59 AM on October 2, 2002
Here you go. [obligatory warning for the .mov link]
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:59 AM on October 2, 2002
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:59 AM on October 2, 2002
monju: That is the funniest thing I have seen in awhile... Thanks!
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 12:07 PM on October 2, 2002
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 12:07 PM on October 2, 2002
I knew I belonged here but now, to have it on the front page, wow! i'm all choked up. i've been checking my wife regularly and she hasn't developed breast cancer soooo...i think that SELF examination may be the problem. These lovely ladies obviously need someone who loves them to help out to avoid the false positives... :)
BtW....thanks for the video...i've always suspected my technique could use some work...
posted by ZenNerd at 12:29 PM on October 2, 2002
BtW....thanks for the video...i've always suspected my technique could use some work...
posted by ZenNerd at 12:29 PM on October 2, 2002
Baloney to this study. My mom and Grandmother both found their breast cancer by self-exams. I do them and any woman should be doing them, I don't care what "experts" say.
I know you meant the "how about exams given by others" as a hee-hee-he-said-breast-joke, but acually some large percentage of discoveries of breast cancer are discovered by the woman's partner. I don't know the exact statistics, but it's a big one.
My friend gives her hubby monthly "grab 'em and cough" exams and he does her breast exams. I think that's kinda cool....
posted by aacheson at 12:31 PM on October 2, 2002
I know you meant the "how about exams given by others" as a hee-hee-he-said-breast-joke, but acually some large percentage of discoveries of breast cancer are discovered by the woman's partner. I don't know the exact statistics, but it's a big one.
My friend gives her hubby monthly "grab 'em and cough" exams and he does her breast exams. I think that's kinda cool....
posted by aacheson at 12:31 PM on October 2, 2002
My mom found her breast cancer (2nd round) through self-exam, too. I don't think one study is enough to convince me to stop doing them.
posted by greengrl at 12:33 PM on October 2, 2002
posted by greengrl at 12:33 PM on October 2, 2002
I'm one of the people who has had several "false positives" (and one negative biopsy) as a result of breast self-exams. It's great peace of mind knowing I _don't_ have cancer, and if for every 10 people like me there's one woman who catches hers sooner, then self-exams will always be a good idea.
posted by sodalinda at 1:01 PM on October 2, 2002
posted by sodalinda at 1:01 PM on October 2, 2002
For those people (sodalinda, greengrl, aacheson) who disagree that it might not help, read the title at the top of the linked page. The study doesn't suggest that you can't find breast cancer through self-examination, simply that you can't find it early enough to increase chances of survival.
Not that I would condone stopping on the basis of one study--I just read it as an urging for women to get themselves checked out by a doctor every six months (or whatever is recommended). You can always bring the hubby in for a colo-rectal exam and make it a fun time for the whole family ;)
posted by The God Complex at 1:23 PM on October 2, 2002
Not that I would condone stopping on the basis of one study--I just read it as an urging for women to get themselves checked out by a doctor every six months (or whatever is recommended). You can always bring the hubby in for a colo-rectal exam and make it a fun time for the whole family ;)
posted by The God Complex at 1:23 PM on October 2, 2002
Yes, but to many women, "BSE doesn't improve suvival statistics" might trigger, "I might as well not do it, then." To me, the way it's being presented might lead some (especially young) women to not bother, and to me, that's risky. Just my $0.02.
posted by greengrl at 1:29 PM on October 2, 2002
posted by greengrl at 1:29 PM on October 2, 2002
I'd certainly encourage women to continue with breast self exams. No one will know your own body better than you, and you're more likely to detect changes.
Do the breast exams correctly (get your primary care doctor to show you how if you don't know). Do them at the same time every month (like a couple of days after your menstrual period). Do them in the shower (that soapy slipperiness is good for feeling changes). Do look for skin changes like dimpling, or any other visual changes. Do check the tissue all the way up into your armpit and upper chest.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 1:44 PM on October 2, 2002
Do the breast exams correctly (get your primary care doctor to show you how if you don't know). Do them at the same time every month (like a couple of days after your menstrual period). Do them in the shower (that soapy slipperiness is good for feeling changes). Do look for skin changes like dimpling, or any other visual changes. Do check the tissue all the way up into your armpit and upper chest.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 1:44 PM on October 2, 2002
There are different types of breast self exams. The exam that is demonstrated on the shower hanging thing is not as good as others.
If you are serious about self exams, and anyone who has a partner check can't be all that serious, I'm sorry but this is a life and death matter, not a tumble in the hay, try Mammacare.
I was trained by a physicians assistant. The lesson took about an hour and a half. When first learning the technique it can take up to an hour for both breasts, but it is worth it.
-much better than a primary care physician. The last pcp I went to spent about a minute on both breasts
www.mammacare.com/
posted by birgitte at 2:07 PM on October 2, 2002
If you are serious about self exams, and anyone who has a partner check can't be all that serious, I'm sorry but this is a life and death matter, not a tumble in the hay, try Mammacare.
I was trained by a physicians assistant. The lesson took about an hour and a half. When first learning the technique it can take up to an hour for both breasts, but it is worth it.
-much better than a primary care physician. The last pcp I went to spent about a minute on both breasts
www.mammacare.com/
posted by birgitte at 2:07 PM on October 2, 2002
Oh, certainly, fold_and_mutilate. I wasn't trying to advocate a complete disregard for examining one's self. I think the study could be helpful for any women (and I'm sure there are some) who are complacent and do nothing more than check themselves. Seeing a doctor regularly for a check-up is always a good idea for these sorts of things, as I'm sure you'd probably agree.
posted by The God Complex at 2:13 PM on October 2, 2002
posted by The God Complex at 2:13 PM on October 2, 2002
And I'm glad this thread has become something more than breast-joke quips.
posted by The God Complex at 2:14 PM on October 2, 2002
posted by The God Complex at 2:14 PM on October 2, 2002
I was trained by a physicians assistant. The lesson took about an hour and a half. When first learning the technique it can take up to an hour for both breasts, but it is worth it.
-much better than a primary care physician. The last pcp I went to spent about a minute on both breasts
Gack. Get another doc. Or, as you point out, seek out a good PA or nurse practitioner who has the time to do a thorough exam. But get them to show you how, too.
Actually, some docs are trained that a breast exam shouldn't take longer than a minute for each breast, but that's kind of ridiculous. A breast exam is a perfect time for teaching: for reviewing how a BSE is done, for remotivating a woman by stressing BSE importance, for asking about family history, for answering questions and allaying anxieties. Perhaps if more docs would take the time to do this and teach a good BSE (and as you point out, to actually do a thorough exam), problem lumps would be found earlier, and studies like the one referenced would show a consistent benefit.
Don't be afraid of finding lumps, folks. Most are benign. But give yourself as much opportunity as possible to correct a problem early, if one (god forbid) exists.
Oh, certainly, fold_and_mutilate. I wasn't trying to advocate a complete disregard for examining one's self... Seeing a doctor regularly for a check-up is always a good idea for these sorts of things, as I'm sure you'd probably agree.
You bet.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 5:30 PM on October 2, 2002
-much better than a primary care physician. The last pcp I went to spent about a minute on both breasts
Gack. Get another doc. Or, as you point out, seek out a good PA or nurse practitioner who has the time to do a thorough exam. But get them to show you how, too.
Actually, some docs are trained that a breast exam shouldn't take longer than a minute for each breast, but that's kind of ridiculous. A breast exam is a perfect time for teaching: for reviewing how a BSE is done, for remotivating a woman by stressing BSE importance, for asking about family history, for answering questions and allaying anxieties. Perhaps if more docs would take the time to do this and teach a good BSE (and as you point out, to actually do a thorough exam), problem lumps would be found earlier, and studies like the one referenced would show a consistent benefit.
Don't be afraid of finding lumps, folks. Most are benign. But give yourself as much opportunity as possible to correct a problem early, if one (god forbid) exists.
Oh, certainly, fold_and_mutilate. I wasn't trying to advocate a complete disregard for examining one's self... Seeing a doctor regularly for a check-up is always a good idea for these sorts of things, as I'm sure you'd probably agree.
You bet.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 5:30 PM on October 2, 2002
My mom's tumor was less than 2cm and against the back wall of her chest; doctor said by the time she was able to feel it in a BSE it would've been too late. (Hers was found during a mammogram.)
One would think, given her history, I'd be a staunch annual mammogram advocate. Yet, I've never had one. Yes, I'm at the age where I should be getting them. I do the BSEs and have never found anything. I've heard so many horror stories about painful mammograms, I keep delaying it. I need some words of encouragement here....(like, "it really doesn't hurt *that* much")...
posted by Oriole Adams at 6:39 PM on October 2, 2002
One would think, given her history, I'd be a staunch annual mammogram advocate. Yet, I've never had one. Yes, I'm at the age where I should be getting them. I do the BSEs and have never found anything. I've heard so many horror stories about painful mammograms, I keep delaying it. I need some words of encouragement here....(like, "it really doesn't hurt *that* much")...
posted by Oriole Adams at 6:39 PM on October 2, 2002
Yes, I'm at the age where I should be getting them. I do the BSEs and have never found anything. I've heard so many horror stories about painful mammograms, I keep delaying it.
Yeah, I admit...me too.
posted by dejah420 at 10:10 PM on October 2, 2002
Yeah, I admit...me too.
posted by dejah420 at 10:10 PM on October 2, 2002
I need some words of encouragement here....(like, "it really doesn't hurt *that* much")...
I think part of the key may be finding a facility where you feel comfortable. If the staff is warm and careful and takes time to answer your questions, and is concerned about any pain, it's easier to bear the few minutes of discomfort (easy for me to say, having never personally felt what you really go through...but bear with me).
Here's a link you might want to check out...it talks about ways of minimizing any pain involved in a mammogram. Excerpts:
Studies on discomfort/pain and mammography reveal that many women experience discomfort during a mammogram; however, few women find the exam extremely painful. In a study conducted by Duke University Medical Center researchers, 93% of 125 women over the age 50 reported pain during the mammogram exam. Most of the women describe the pain as low to moderate. In another larger study, 52% of 1,800 women surveyed reported moderate to extreme discomfort during mammography. Researchers have also found pain is a key factor in determining whether women in breast cancer screening programs will return for future mammograms.
By surveying women about their experiences with mammograms, researchers offer suggestions on how to minimize discomfort during mammography.
To alleviate much of the pain associated with mammography, patients may wish to:
* Find a “friendly” mammography facility with knowledgeable mammography technologists
* Control the breast compression themselves during mammography
* Change mammography facilities when dissatisfied with care/service
Patients should feel firm pressure due to compression but no significant pain. If you feel pain, please inform the technologist. During the mammography examination, breast compression should only be applied two to four times per breast for a few seconds each time (see description of views taken during screening and diagnostic mammography).
Breast Compression is Necessary During Mammography in Order to:
* Flatten the breast so there is less tissue overlap for better visualization of anatomy and potential abnormalities. For example, inadequate compression can lead to poor imaging of microcalcifications, tiny calcium deposits that are often an early sign of breast cancer.
* Allow the use of a lower x-ray dose since a thinner amount of breast tissue is being imaged
* Immobilize the breast in order to eliminate image blurring caused by motion
* Reduce x-ray scatter which also leads to image degradation
I think this idea of having the patient control breast compression is a good one, although frankly I'd never heard of it before I read the link.
It sucks having to go in periodically to a bunch of strangers, disrobe, subject yourself to pain/discomfort, all with the underlying anxiety about potentially finding something bad, and have to wait for results.
But you're doing the right thing by taking care of yourself, for yourself and for your family and friends. Consider making a deal to go in with a friend, ie "if you'll do it, I'll do it." Reward yourself, you've earned at least a pink badge of courage after its all done. Hell, if it scares you real bad, have a couple of beers before you go in!
But take care of each another, and of yourself....
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:23 AM on October 3, 2002
I think part of the key may be finding a facility where you feel comfortable. If the staff is warm and careful and takes time to answer your questions, and is concerned about any pain, it's easier to bear the few minutes of discomfort (easy for me to say, having never personally felt what you really go through...but bear with me).
Here's a link you might want to check out...it talks about ways of minimizing any pain involved in a mammogram. Excerpts:
Studies on discomfort/pain and mammography reveal that many women experience discomfort during a mammogram; however, few women find the exam extremely painful. In a study conducted by Duke University Medical Center researchers, 93% of 125 women over the age 50 reported pain during the mammogram exam. Most of the women describe the pain as low to moderate. In another larger study, 52% of 1,800 women surveyed reported moderate to extreme discomfort during mammography. Researchers have also found pain is a key factor in determining whether women in breast cancer screening programs will return for future mammograms.
By surveying women about their experiences with mammograms, researchers offer suggestions on how to minimize discomfort during mammography.
To alleviate much of the pain associated with mammography, patients may wish to:
* Find a “friendly” mammography facility with knowledgeable mammography technologists
* Control the breast compression themselves during mammography
* Change mammography facilities when dissatisfied with care/service
Patients should feel firm pressure due to compression but no significant pain. If you feel pain, please inform the technologist. During the mammography examination, breast compression should only be applied two to four times per breast for a few seconds each time (see description of views taken during screening and diagnostic mammography).
Breast Compression is Necessary During Mammography in Order to:
* Flatten the breast so there is less tissue overlap for better visualization of anatomy and potential abnormalities. For example, inadequate compression can lead to poor imaging of microcalcifications, tiny calcium deposits that are often an early sign of breast cancer.
* Allow the use of a lower x-ray dose since a thinner amount of breast tissue is being imaged
* Immobilize the breast in order to eliminate image blurring caused by motion
* Reduce x-ray scatter which also leads to image degradation
I think this idea of having the patient control breast compression is a good one, although frankly I'd never heard of it before I read the link.
It sucks having to go in periodically to a bunch of strangers, disrobe, subject yourself to pain/discomfort, all with the underlying anxiety about potentially finding something bad, and have to wait for results.
But you're doing the right thing by taking care of yourself, for yourself and for your family and friends. Consider making a deal to go in with a friend, ie "if you'll do it, I'll do it." Reward yourself, you've earned at least a pink badge of courage after its all done. Hell, if it scares you real bad, have a couple of beers before you go in!
But take care of each another, and of yourself....
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:23 AM on October 3, 2002
But take care of each another, and of yourself....
~laugh~
That's the kind of grammar you use when you have to have a couple of beers to even write about mammograms.
~wink~
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:26 AM on October 3, 2002
~laugh~
That's the kind of grammar you use when you have to have a couple of beers to even write about mammograms.
~wink~
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:26 AM on October 3, 2002
Like greengrl, I think this could unfortunately, be easily misunderstood. Control the breast compression themselves during mammography.
Thanks f & m, I've never heard of that either, but it would certainly make me more likely to go through with the procedure. I might need more than a couple of beers though.
posted by Tarrama at 5:21 AM on October 3, 2002
Thanks f & m, I've never heard of that either, but it would certainly make me more likely to go through with the procedure. I might need more than a couple of beers though.
posted by Tarrama at 5:21 AM on October 3, 2002
I had my first mammogram last year, and to be honest, I didn't think it was nearly as bad as I'd been led to believe. Not that I'd want to do it all the time, but what little discomfort I had was well worth it.
I've been telling my friends not to stress, because it didn't hurt. Of course, when I said that to the tech, she laughed and said, "That's because I'm the best tech in Michigan." Heh, nothing like a little humility.
I really hope she's not right, but you better believe I'm going to try to go back to her next time. ;-)
posted by greengrl at 7:15 AM on October 3, 2002
I've been telling my friends not to stress, because it didn't hurt. Of course, when I said that to the tech, she laughed and said, "That's because I'm the best tech in Michigan." Heh, nothing like a little humility.
I really hope she's not right, but you better believe I'm going to try to go back to her next time. ;-)
posted by greengrl at 7:15 AM on October 3, 2002
I'd never heard of the patient controlling the compression either, but I'll ask about that next time. Really, though, it isn't that bad. Just a few seconds of discomfort twice for each breast (my experience). I try to schedule the procedure to avoid the PMS part of the month, and I take a couple of ibuprofin before I leave for the doc's office. There is some soreness for 24-36 hours afterward, more in the upper chest and armpits than the breasts themselves, but another dose or two of ibuprofin takes care that. It is so very worth it for the peace of mind.
[stating the obvious]
If you're going to try beer as anesthesia, don't drive yourself, ok? ;-)
[/stating the obvious]
posted by Alylex at 7:34 AM on October 3, 2002
[stating the obvious]
If you're going to try beer as anesthesia, don't drive yourself, ok? ;-)
[/stating the obvious]
posted by Alylex at 7:34 AM on October 3, 2002
Where in Michigan, Greengrl? Hopefully somewhere in the Metro Detroit area...I'd feel more comfortable going to the best tech in the state!
posted by Oriole Adams at 8:37 AM on October 3, 2002
posted by Oriole Adams at 8:37 AM on October 3, 2002
Yup. The Henry Ford Medical Center in Sterling Heights. Go there. She's good. :-)
posted by greengrl at 8:58 AM on October 3, 2002
posted by greengrl at 8:58 AM on October 3, 2002
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5 points to anyone who can find a decent link to it. Humor and breast examinations seem to go hand-in-hand. (or perhaps breast-in-hand.)
posted by hipnerd at 11:51 AM on October 2, 2002