November 1, 2002
12:29 PM Subscribe
Dammit, boys, what on earth is it going to take for you to stop barebacking, and to stop practicing unsafe sex in general?? Obviously not an HIV scare, so howzabout the report that syphilis is on the rise, thanks to the efforts of gay men? The problem's so bad that gAyOL has started staffing some of its chat rooms with safe-sex counselors. Look guys, I already lost the generation ahead of me--they're all dead because they loved the booty so much. I don't want to lose the one that follows me, too. So please, please, please don't be silly, put a rubber on that willy!
So please, please, please don't be silly, put a rubber on that willy!
From this day forward, Wolfdaddy and Sue Johanson will be linked in my mind.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 12:39 PM on November 1, 2002
From this day forward, Wolfdaddy and Sue Johanson will be linked in my mind.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 12:39 PM on November 1, 2002
While I agree completely with your suggestion, the article disturbed me a little. What does it say about a couple who stays together simply because neither of them has an infectious disease? Or about the men who don't use condoms for the senseless reasons stated? Could we possibly be talking about a little pruning in the shallow end of the gene pool?
(Sorry for the mixed metaphor!)
posted by msaligned at 12:42 PM on November 1, 2002
(Sorry for the mixed metaphor!)
posted by msaligned at 12:42 PM on November 1, 2002
Hear, hear WolfDaddy - listen to him, people.
I'd do anything to have my good friends Ed, Malcom, Kim and Gary back. Coincidental for me that you should post this today, because I miss and mourn for these friends every year at Halloween in particular -- we used to stage wonderful masquerade ball AIDs fundraisers in Portland, Maine. How I miss them! What a sad waste that people so full of life force all had to die so young.
posted by madamjujujive at 12:43 PM on November 1, 2002
I'd do anything to have my good friends Ed, Malcom, Kim and Gary back. Coincidental for me that you should post this today, because I miss and mourn for these friends every year at Halloween in particular -- we used to stage wonderful masquerade ball AIDs fundraisers in Portland, Maine. How I miss them! What a sad waste that people so full of life force all had to die so young.
posted by madamjujujive at 12:43 PM on November 1, 2002
That's funny, PST, because I've always linked her to Julia Child ;-) Separated at birth??
I first heard the phrase when it was screamed onstage by Madonna during her Blond Ambition tour about 10 years ago, for what it's worth.
msaligned, perhaps we are doing a bit of pruning, but the new growth has barely had time to flourish, and the bush is damn thin up where I am. Those who don't learn the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them, I suppose. Which fucking sucks. And not in a good way.
posted by WolfDaddy at 12:45 PM on November 1, 2002
I first heard the phrase when it was screamed onstage by Madonna during her Blond Ambition tour about 10 years ago, for what it's worth.
msaligned, perhaps we are doing a bit of pruning, but the new growth has barely had time to flourish, and the bush is damn thin up where I am. Those who don't learn the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them, I suppose. Which fucking sucks. And not in a good way.
posted by WolfDaddy at 12:45 PM on November 1, 2002
I am constantly amazed at the capacity of humans for self-destructive behavior. And the fetishizing of dumb sex and the romantic notion of living for the day (and fuck tomorrow) married to individauls who feel their sexuality is their identity (not a component) and they live the lifestyle (versus living a life).
It really isn't darwinism at work per se if the guys engaging in barebacking aren't breeding, right? Though there is evolution when someone who is already HIV+ get re-infected with a different strain - and I think (trying to Google some sources) that encourages the virus to mutate - and helps to create drug-resistant variants.
The current syph outbreak started in LA and is currently rampant here in Chicago - the city health department is requiring clinics to notify of new infections so they can track down the source - which an HIV counselor I spoke to is traced to a handful of chat rooms on AOL and Gay.com.
(And don't get me started on circuit parties)
posted by ao4047 at 12:58 PM on November 1, 2002
It really isn't darwinism at work per se if the guys engaging in barebacking aren't breeding, right? Though there is evolution when someone who is already HIV+ get re-infected with a different strain - and I think (trying to Google some sources) that encourages the virus to mutate - and helps to create drug-resistant variants.
The current syph outbreak started in LA and is currently rampant here in Chicago - the city health department is requiring clinics to notify of new infections so they can track down the source - which an HIV counselor I spoke to is traced to a handful of chat rooms on AOL and Gay.com.
(And don't get me started on circuit parties)
posted by ao4047 at 12:58 PM on November 1, 2002
The least you could do is link to my condom store instead of that fly by night operation you chose.
posted by filchyboy at 1:01 PM on November 1, 2002
posted by filchyboy at 1:01 PM on November 1, 2002
Wolfdaddy: Naturally, when AIDS is rampant, some people who are NOT senseless are also going to get infected. And that is a damned shamed. My heart really goes out to such people.
As a matter of fact, several years ago, I was part of an AIDS vaccine study that was done out of Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore. I was so concerned with the rapid onset of the epidemic, that I felt I had to do something, and this vaccine test was a good opportunity.
However, I think it is this committment on my part that makes me so hard on the people who so willingly waste their own lives, and the others around them.
posted by msaligned at 1:05 PM on November 1, 2002
As a matter of fact, several years ago, I was part of an AIDS vaccine study that was done out of Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore. I was so concerned with the rapid onset of the epidemic, that I felt I had to do something, and this vaccine test was a good opportunity.
However, I think it is this committment on my part that makes me so hard on the people who so willingly waste their own lives, and the others around them.
posted by msaligned at 1:05 PM on November 1, 2002
Uh, I'd like to point out that homosexuality does not equate with sterility. Many gay people are parents by their own genes ... and probably a turkey baster ;-)
However, there's also a danger in using a binary labeling system when addressing this problem of STD transmission. Sure, we can ascribe a rise in syphilis cases to "gay men" ... but I can tell you from my own observations that many, many, many men who hook up together via chat rooms are married or otherwise present themselves as "straight" to the rest of the world.
"straight" and "gay" merely describe the endpoints of a system, and those labels ignore the vast fluidity of male sexuality extant. At the cost of health and lives, apparently.
posted by WolfDaddy at 1:18 PM on November 1, 2002
However, there's also a danger in using a binary labeling system when addressing this problem of STD transmission. Sure, we can ascribe a rise in syphilis cases to "gay men" ... but I can tell you from my own observations that many, many, many men who hook up together via chat rooms are married or otherwise present themselves as "straight" to the rest of the world.
"straight" and "gay" merely describe the endpoints of a system, and those labels ignore the vast fluidity of male sexuality extant. At the cost of health and lives, apparently.
posted by WolfDaddy at 1:18 PM on November 1, 2002
Alternatively, you could take the remarkable approach of keeping your pants on until you're married. God didn't tell us to do that because he's mean or prudish -- it's just a commonsense way to avoid a whole mess of problems. :-)
posted by oissubke at 1:21 PM on November 1, 2002
posted by oissubke at 1:21 PM on November 1, 2002
Umm, I don't recall having any conversations with god about this.
posted by Red58 at 1:26 PM on November 1, 2002
posted by Red58 at 1:26 PM on November 1, 2002
[devil's advocate]
But what if you don't believe in God? Then what?
[/devil's advocate]
posted by eilatan at 1:28 PM on November 1, 2002
But what if you don't believe in God? Then what?
[/devil's advocate]
posted by eilatan at 1:28 PM on November 1, 2002
msaligned: I think this issue is a little bit more complicated than thinning out the shallow end of the gene pool. I've seen several very well educated and smart friends bareback in the heat of the moment (albeit, also somewhat intoxicated). I was dismayed to see it happen, but I can certainly understand the appeal when the situation provides itself, having been tempted myself.
It seems to me to be somewhat of a combination of a failure of education to get out the word that the fight is really not over, and being real tired from having to deal with this issue for so long. It's a problem I've had to face my entire life, as well as many of my friends. I've constantly encountered the "things were so much more fun until just before you arrived on the scene", and it annoys me to no end sometimes.
Anyway, this is my first comment, kinda ironic given my name here.
posted by trojan_horse at 1:28 PM on November 1, 2002
It seems to me to be somewhat of a combination of a failure of education to get out the word that the fight is really not over, and being real tired from having to deal with this issue for so long. It's a problem I've had to face my entire life, as well as many of my friends. I've constantly encountered the "things were so much more fun until just before you arrived on the scene", and it annoys me to no end sometimes.
Anyway, this is my first comment, kinda ironic given my name here.
posted by trojan_horse at 1:28 PM on November 1, 2002
what you said, Wolf, but just telling people not to bareback isn't enough...
Let's try to make condoms free and more readily available (like they used to be--with baskets full of them on every bar throughout the mid-late 80s and early 90s--Why did they disappear?) One other important step has been some changes in HIV cocktail advertising--with a reduction of images of healthy, athletic thriving people climbing mountains even though they're on a cocktail...
and also, the steroids and testosterone people with aids have been given to stop wasting have help to create the gym-bunny culture...and the increased horniness and aggression they create may have also contributed...
posted by amberglow at 1:30 PM on November 1, 2002
Let's try to make condoms free and more readily available (like they used to be--with baskets full of them on every bar throughout the mid-late 80s and early 90s--Why did they disappear?) One other important step has been some changes in HIV cocktail advertising--with a reduction of images of healthy, athletic thriving people climbing mountains even though they're on a cocktail...
and also, the steroids and testosterone people with aids have been given to stop wasting have help to create the gym-bunny culture...and the increased horniness and aggression they create may have also contributed...
posted by amberglow at 1:30 PM on November 1, 2002
I've seen several very well educated and smart friends bareback in the heat of the moment
Uhm . . . wow, I guess.
posted by yerfatma at 1:32 PM on November 1, 2002
Uhm . . . wow, I guess.
posted by yerfatma at 1:32 PM on November 1, 2002
Survival of the fittest, baby.
posted by four panels at 1:35 PM on November 1, 2002
posted by four panels at 1:35 PM on November 1, 2002
Gosh that makes me angry, four panels. Not so much at the flippant attitude, mind you, but more at my friends for making a stupid decision. Kinda where WolfDaddy is coming from, I think. Sure, maybe in the case of my friends things will still work out just fine. Not everytime someone does something stupid (like driving without a seat belt fastened) does the universe go "Ha". But I know I've had pretty much that same attitude in the past about, for instance, the Darwin Awards. I wonder how the Darwin Awards feel if it's someone close to you that doesn't normally do something idiotic?
posted by trojan_horse at 1:52 PM on November 1, 2002
posted by trojan_horse at 1:52 PM on November 1, 2002
but I can tell you from my own observations that many, many, many men who hook up together via chat rooms are married or otherwise present themselves as "straight" to the rest of the world.
that's why we in the STD/HIV world tend to refer to those populations as "men who have sex with men" (MSM) or "women who have sex with women" (WSW). the term "gay" just doesn't cut it when talking about partners/behavior patterns.
posted by tristeza at 2:00 PM on November 1, 2002
that's why we in the STD/HIV world tend to refer to those populations as "men who have sex with men" (MSM) or "women who have sex with women" (WSW). the term "gay" just doesn't cut it when talking about partners/behavior patterns.
posted by tristeza at 2:00 PM on November 1, 2002
"Survival of the fittest, baby........"
...... is a cheap cop out.
Please explain to us how condom use is an evolutionary factor. On top of that, many extremely fit and intelligent people have contracted VD and/or died of AIDS. A virus may be an evolutionary factor. Condom use certainly isn't.
Unless you think there is some mutation that will lead to an instinctual desire to use condoms? "Thinning the herd", and "Survival of the fittest" seem to be things you don't understand.
Please explain your pet theory Dr Science.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:05 PM on November 1, 2002
...... is a cheap cop out.
Please explain to us how condom use is an evolutionary factor. On top of that, many extremely fit and intelligent people have contracted VD and/or died of AIDS. A virus may be an evolutionary factor. Condom use certainly isn't.
Unless you think there is some mutation that will lead to an instinctual desire to use condoms? "Thinning the herd", and "Survival of the fittest" seem to be things you don't understand.
Please explain your pet theory Dr Science.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:05 PM on November 1, 2002
the steroids and testosterone people with aids have been given to stop wasting have help to create the gym-bunny culture...and the increased horniness and aggression they create may have also contributed...
Exactly... (I've heard) of the overwhelming pressure in the gay community to make your ass look good in hot pants. We need to stop seeing images of AIDS infected gay men running triathalons and climbing mount everest. It undermines the seriousness of the disease. Instead, we need to see images of them emaciated and wasting away. Furthermore, the image of the "I'm-an-old-and-out-shape-gay-guy" might not be so bad.
posted by Captain Supermarket at 2:07 PM on November 1, 2002
Exactly... (I've heard) of the overwhelming pressure in the gay community to make your ass look good in hot pants. We need to stop seeing images of AIDS infected gay men running triathalons and climbing mount everest. It undermines the seriousness of the disease. Instead, we need to see images of them emaciated and wasting away. Furthermore, the image of the "I'm-an-old-and-out-shape-gay-guy" might not be so bad.
posted by Captain Supermarket at 2:07 PM on November 1, 2002
four panels: Survival of the fittest, baby.
Don't feed the troll.
posted by Stan Chin at 2:11 PM on November 1, 2002
Don't feed the troll.
posted by Stan Chin at 2:11 PM on November 1, 2002
"Thinning the herd", and "Survival of the fittest" seem to be things you don't understand.
y6y6y6, I think I can help you to understand. Condom use may or may not be instinctual, but it most certainly succeeds in thinning out the herd. Especially considering homosexuals who are aware of their disease, and continue to have unprotected sex. It can almost be considered gay-on-gay murder ...
Simply put, condom use is a measure of intelligence, Nay...it is a measure of common sense. If you are a homosexual who doesn't use protection, you must expect to die relatively soon.
posted by Captain Supermarket at 2:14 PM on November 1, 2002
y6y6y6, I think I can help you to understand. Condom use may or may not be instinctual, but it most certainly succeeds in thinning out the herd. Especially considering homosexuals who are aware of their disease, and continue to have unprotected sex. It can almost be considered gay-on-gay murder ...
Simply put, condom use is a measure of intelligence, Nay...it is a measure of common sense. If you are a homosexual who doesn't use protection, you must expect to die relatively soon.
posted by Captain Supermarket at 2:14 PM on November 1, 2002
ooh, Captain! are you outing Shatner? : >
People have started praising and featuring the "Bear" community in terms of its visibility as an alternative to gym bodies, but that's fraught with its own problems...
posted by amberglow at 2:16 PM on November 1, 2002
People have started praising and featuring the "Bear" community in terms of its visibility as an alternative to gym bodies, but that's fraught with its own problems...
posted by amberglow at 2:16 PM on November 1, 2002
Captain Supermarket, I'll thank you to stop linking in pictures of my dad!!!
Funny that the 'old-out-of-shape-gay-guy' image is the only image that seems to have survived in my generation, much as so-called "gay culture" would like to ignore that image outside of leather/bear/daddy subgenres. Thank god my ass didn't (and still doesn't) look good in hotpants!
Assless leather chaps, though ... oh, amberglow beat me to it. ;-)
posted by WolfDaddy at 2:17 PM on November 1, 2002
Funny that the 'old-out-of-shape-gay-guy' image is the only image that seems to have survived in my generation, much as so-called "gay culture" would like to ignore that image outside of leather/bear/daddy subgenres. Thank god my ass didn't (and still doesn't) look good in hotpants!
Assless leather chaps, though ... oh, amberglow beat me to it. ;-)
posted by WolfDaddy at 2:17 PM on November 1, 2002
Please explain to us how condom use is an evolutionary factor.
Please explain your pet theory Dr Science.
Before attempting to be a smartass, y6y6y6, look into things like "facts". "Survival of the fittest" and "Evolution" are two radically different concepts (#8) and are mutually exclusive in their scientific validity.
"Natural selection works by giving individuals who are better adapted to a given set of environmental conditions an advantage over those that are not as well adapted."
In this case, natural selection would favor those rational enough to use condoms in light of the extreme deadliness of sexually transmitted diseases. The rest are far more likely to fall ill and/or die from said diseases.
posted by Danelope at 2:18 PM on November 1, 2002
Please explain your pet theory Dr Science.
Before attempting to be a smartass, y6y6y6, look into things like "facts". "Survival of the fittest" and "Evolution" are two radically different concepts (#8) and are mutually exclusive in their scientific validity.
"Natural selection works by giving individuals who are better adapted to a given set of environmental conditions an advantage over those that are not as well adapted."
In this case, natural selection would favor those rational enough to use condoms in light of the extreme deadliness of sexually transmitted diseases. The rest are far more likely to fall ill and/or die from said diseases.
posted by Danelope at 2:18 PM on November 1, 2002
mmmmmm...assless leather chaps ; >
tristeza, maybe you know why community orgs stopped giving condoms to bars? (was it funding?) Or was it that the bars didn't want to display them anymore?
posted by amberglow at 2:21 PM on November 1, 2002
tristeza, maybe you know why community orgs stopped giving condoms to bars? (was it funding?) Or was it that the bars didn't want to display them anymore?
posted by amberglow at 2:21 PM on November 1, 2002
People have started praising and featuring the "Bear" community in terms of its visibility as an alternative to gym bodies, but that's fraught with its own problems...
I think this may be true, at least in the heterosexual realm. It accounts for the popularity that hedgehog pornstar, dang,..what's his name?
anyway amberglow, where can I find some information about this claim?...
posted by Captain Supermarket at 2:22 PM on November 1, 2002
I think this may be true, at least in the heterosexual realm. It accounts for the popularity that hedgehog pornstar, dang,..what's his name?
anyway amberglow, where can I find some information about this claim?...
posted by Captain Supermarket at 2:22 PM on November 1, 2002
Wolfdaddy thanks for not making this a one sided disease issue. I saw recently a study on the black plague and aids. This one guy whose blood was unable to contract aids because of a gene mutation. This same mutation was linked to known survivors of the black plague. But there are other sexually transmitted diseases.
posted by thomcatspike at 2:23 PM on November 1, 2002
posted by thomcatspike at 2:23 PM on November 1, 2002
We need to stop seeing images of AIDS infected gay men running triathalons and climbing mount everest. It undermines the seriousness of the disease. Instead, we need to see images of them emaciated and wasting away.
But then drug companies won't be able to advertise their products, making it seem like everything's peachy-keen if you have HIV/AIDS! And then people will buy less of the drugs our tax dollars helped to develop! And besides, everyone knows a vaccine makes much less profit than a treatment.
(Devil's advocate: Where do you draw the line though? I guess it's good that ACT UP changed the phrase from 'dying from' to 'living with,' but aren't the drug companies just doing the same thing?)
posted by gramcracker at 2:25 PM on November 1, 2002
But then drug companies won't be able to advertise their products, making it seem like everything's peachy-keen if you have HIV/AIDS! And then people will buy less of the drugs our tax dollars helped to develop! And besides, everyone knows a vaccine makes much less profit than a treatment.
(Devil's advocate: Where do you draw the line though? I guess it's good that ACT UP changed the phrase from 'dying from' to 'living with,' but aren't the drug companies just doing the same thing?)
posted by gramcracker at 2:25 PM on November 1, 2002
maybe you know why community orgs stopped giving condoms to bars? (was it funding?) Or was it that the bars didn't want to display them anymore?
This was done to prevent couples (both gay and straight) from having sex in the bar. Many patrons understand the distribution of condoms as an ivitation to have sex right then and there...
Maybe we should start discussing the "oh my god, I have to have sex right fucking now!" mentality. If homosexuals could accept delayed gratification, we could solve a lot of problems. They could leave the bar, stop by walgreens, get some condoms, go back to the smaller guy's place, and have some sex.
posted by Captain Supermarket at 2:28 PM on November 1, 2002
This was done to prevent couples (both gay and straight) from having sex in the bar. Many patrons understand the distribution of condoms as an ivitation to have sex right then and there...
Maybe we should start discussing the "oh my god, I have to have sex right fucking now!" mentality. If homosexuals could accept delayed gratification, we could solve a lot of problems. They could leave the bar, stop by walgreens, get some condoms, go back to the smaller guy's place, and have some sex.
posted by Captain Supermarket at 2:28 PM on November 1, 2002
Really?. Can't tell it from your "Survival of the fittest" comment here.
In this case, natural selection would favor those rational enough to use condoms in light of the extreme deadliness of sexually transmitted diseases. The rest are far more likely to fall ill and/or die from said diseases.
Danelope, I think you take y6cubed a little too seriously in his sarcasm. Dismissing a human's value by whether or not they contract a disease is, in my opinion, inhuman. We know many ways to avoid heart disease; many of us don't. We know many ways to avoid cancer, many of us don't. We know many ways to avoid obesity, many of us don't. We expend far too much (in some opinions) resource trying to keep the old from succumbing to old-age. Blaming the diseased on psuedo-Darwinian grounds is obscene. Many homosexuals will not breed, and homosexuality doesn't seem to be understood well enough in terms of genetic transmittal for anyone to be making evolutionary claims, or even claims of fitness. We are a morally aware mammal. To deny that is beyond insensitive.
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:33 PM on November 1, 2002
In this case, natural selection would favor those rational enough to use condoms in light of the extreme deadliness of sexually transmitted diseases. The rest are far more likely to fall ill and/or die from said diseases.
Danelope, I think you take y6cubed a little too seriously in his sarcasm. Dismissing a human's value by whether or not they contract a disease is, in my opinion, inhuman. We know many ways to avoid heart disease; many of us don't. We know many ways to avoid cancer, many of us don't. We know many ways to avoid obesity, many of us don't. We expend far too much (in some opinions) resource trying to keep the old from succumbing to old-age. Blaming the diseased on psuedo-Darwinian grounds is obscene. Many homosexuals will not breed, and homosexuality doesn't seem to be understood well enough in terms of genetic transmittal for anyone to be making evolutionary claims, or even claims of fitness. We are a morally aware mammal. To deny that is beyond insensitive.
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:33 PM on November 1, 2002
The plethora of bear-emblazoned caps, bear-friendly nightspots, and other assorted phenomena are among the ways in which bears have come into prominence in the mainstream gay marketplace. And while bears gradually find their way into general-interest publications and other media, bear-specific skin magazines, videos, and Web sites have become such big business that even companies like Falcon have begun dabbling in images of furry, husky physiques. Here you go Captain! And the New York Times, in a recent article on hairiness and less-toned physiques in men's advertising, attributed it in part to bears...and in bar rags (here in NY), the usual pics of gym boys are tempered with a few bears more and more...
Also, the bar condom thing --they were found in every bar back then, from the upscale cocktail places where no one would ever do anything untoward to regular hangouts to sleazy bars with backrooms....
now send me some Kirk/Chekov slash!
posted by amberglow at 2:40 PM on November 1, 2002
Also, the bar condom thing --they were found in every bar back then, from the upscale cocktail places where no one would ever do anything untoward to regular hangouts to sleazy bars with backrooms....
now send me some Kirk/Chekov slash!
posted by amberglow at 2:40 PM on November 1, 2002
I saw recently a study on the black plague and aids. This one guy whose blood was unable to contract aids because of a gene mutation. This same mutation was linked to known survivors of the black plague.Maybe on this PBS program? See also a Slate article about it here.
posted by staggernation at 2:40 PM on November 1, 2002
maybe you know why community orgs stopped giving condoms to bars? (was it funding?) Or was it that the bars didn't want to display them anymore?
This was done to prevent couples (both gay and straight) from having sex in the bar. Many patrons understand the distribution of condoms as an ivitation to have sex right then and there...
you're not serious, are you? condoms "promote" sexual activity about as well as seatbelts promote driving. it just doesn't add up.
as for the lack of condoms in bars now - i'm not really sure, but i would guess it's a combination of lack of funding, the new attitude that HIV is simply a chronic condition and not a death sentence, and "prevention fatigue" - people are simply sick of being told that they're in danger and saying the hell with it.
posted by tristeza at 2:41 PM on November 1, 2002
This was done to prevent couples (both gay and straight) from having sex in the bar. Many patrons understand the distribution of condoms as an ivitation to have sex right then and there...
you're not serious, are you? condoms "promote" sexual activity about as well as seatbelts promote driving. it just doesn't add up.
as for the lack of condoms in bars now - i'm not really sure, but i would guess it's a combination of lack of funding, the new attitude that HIV is simply a chronic condition and not a death sentence, and "prevention fatigue" - people are simply sick of being told that they're in danger and saying the hell with it.
posted by tristeza at 2:41 PM on November 1, 2002
I think this may be true, at least in the heterosexual realm. It accounts for the popularity that hedgehog pornstar, dang,..what's his name?
Captain Supermarket at 2:22 PM PST on November 1
Ron Jeremy is the hedgehog of whom you speak.
posted by Mitheral at 2:42 PM on November 1, 2002
Captain Supermarket at 2:22 PM PST on November 1
Ron Jeremy is the hedgehog of whom you speak.
posted by Mitheral at 2:42 PM on November 1, 2002
you're not serious, are you? condoms "promote" sexual activity about as well as seatbelts promote driving.
no, i'm not being entirely serious, this is an unsubstantiated claim that I could never really back up...
It just sorta seemed to make sense, although I think you might be right tristeza.
Also, thanks mitheral, ron jeremy, how could I forget?
posted by Captain Supermarket at 3:15 PM on November 1, 2002
no, i'm not being entirely serious, this is an unsubstantiated claim that I could never really back up...
It just sorta seemed to make sense, although I think you might be right tristeza.
Also, thanks mitheral, ron jeremy, how could I forget?
posted by Captain Supermarket at 3:15 PM on November 1, 2002
damn. sorry (i guess i'm allowed to say "damn" as long as it's not on the hallowed front page?)
posted by andrew cooke at 3:30 PM on November 1, 2002
posted by andrew cooke at 3:30 PM on November 1, 2002
The problem's so bad that gAyOL has started
emmm ?
posted by davebushe at 4:58 PM on November 1, 2002
emmm ?
posted by davebushe at 4:58 PM on November 1, 2002
So a very close friend and I were talking yesterday--we are both gay men--and he basically disclosed to me a horror story/cautionary tale that is pertinent for mostly anyone, but particularly those who put unprotected penises near their butts: don't do it.
Now I've done this. It's not barebacking cause it's not insertion... It feels good and seems safe. Until my friend told me he got WARTS that way. And that after coming out to his parents he had to also tell them he had warts and then they had to pay for the surgery that he said was the most painful experience of his life. Burning the warts away on his ass.
Sorry if this post is unsavory but I think it's important to note the other STDs that are out there too and that extreme reckless behavior isn't the only way to get them.
Thank you.
posted by adrober at 4:58 PM on November 1, 2002
Now I've done this. It's not barebacking cause it's not insertion... It feels good and seems safe. Until my friend told me he got WARTS that way. And that after coming out to his parents he had to also tell them he had warts and then they had to pay for the surgery that he said was the most painful experience of his life. Burning the warts away on his ass.
Sorry if this post is unsavory but I think it's important to note the other STDs that are out there too and that extreme reckless behavior isn't the only way to get them.
Thank you.
posted by adrober at 4:58 PM on November 1, 2002
Could we possibly be talking about a little pruning in the shallow end of the gene pool?
Hmm -- I'm a bit late to the discussion here. Still, though it's been touched on, I think it's worth giving a full mathematical example (one of many possible) of how barebacking harms almost all gay men, not just those who practice it:
Imagine a hundred people who only have sex with others in the group, 20 of whom have HIV, 1 of whom has HIV and syphillis, one of whom has HIV and hepatitis B. If everyone uses condoms almost all the time (and has unprotecte oral sex), it's likely that, at most, a couple more people will be infected with HIV (which really can only be transmitted vaginally or anally). If all the people with HIV bareback, then (1) they have higher average levels of HIV, which are more easily spread to others (condoms do break), and (2) great numbers of them pick up hepatitis B and syphillis, which can then be spread orally to any other members of the group, who have no idea that can happen.
In short, barebacking creates a group that is an incubator for various diseases, which can then be spread to people outside that group. And it makes oral sex not-terribly-safe rather than almost-completely-safe, which, uh, sucks.
posted by Tlogmer at 5:02 PM on November 1, 2002
Hmm -- I'm a bit late to the discussion here. Still, though it's been touched on, I think it's worth giving a full mathematical example (one of many possible) of how barebacking harms almost all gay men, not just those who practice it:
Imagine a hundred people who only have sex with others in the group, 20 of whom have HIV, 1 of whom has HIV and syphillis, one of whom has HIV and hepatitis B. If everyone uses condoms almost all the time (and has unprotecte oral sex), it's likely that, at most, a couple more people will be infected with HIV (which really can only be transmitted vaginally or anally). If all the people with HIV bareback, then (1) they have higher average levels of HIV, which are more easily spread to others (condoms do break), and (2) great numbers of them pick up hepatitis B and syphillis, which can then be spread orally to any other members of the group, who have no idea that can happen.
In short, barebacking creates a group that is an incubator for various diseases, which can then be spread to people outside that group. And it makes oral sex not-terribly-safe rather than almost-completely-safe, which, uh, sucks.
posted by Tlogmer at 5:02 PM on November 1, 2002
Oh, wait -- I'm not late for the discussion. Oops. (I always forget -- pacific standard time, pacific standard time.)
posted by Tlogmer at 5:06 PM on November 1, 2002
posted by Tlogmer at 5:06 PM on November 1, 2002
Alternatively, you could take the remarkable approach of keeping your pants on until you're married. God didn't tell us to do that because he's mean or prudish -- it's just a commonsense way to avoid a whole mess of problems. :-)
posted by oissubke at 1:21 PM PST on November 1
[Sorry, oissubke, is that supposed to be funny simply cos you put a smiley on the end?
I guess you also preach 'just say no' to drugs, & abstinence-only sex ed to teenagers, too ?]
Troll - or ignoramus? You decide.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:22 PM on November 1, 2002
posted by oissubke at 1:21 PM PST on November 1
[Sorry, oissubke, is that supposed to be funny simply cos you put a smiley on the end?
I guess you also preach 'just say no' to drugs, & abstinence-only sex ed to teenagers, too ?]
Troll - or ignoramus? You decide.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:22 PM on November 1, 2002
PS: when the straights let us marry, you can repeat that and not be met with guffaws. Till then, it doesnt cut it as a safe sex message for the gay community, now does it?
posted by dash_slot- at 5:24 PM on November 1, 2002
posted by dash_slot- at 5:24 PM on November 1, 2002
I've seen several very well educated and smart friends bareback in the heat of the moment (albeit, also somewhat intoxicated).
Trojan Horse: I am sorry if you have friends who are infected with HIV, but just because they are your friends and well-educated does not mean they are sensible. Anyone who knowingly puts themselves into a position (through alcohol, drugs, or whatever) to have unprotected sex is seriously missing something in the good sense department.
Getting back to the document that WolfDaddy originally sited though, if you look at the reasons that some people give for not wearing condoms, you have to seriously question more than just their good sense. Their sanity, perhaps.
And, Captain Supermarket, you worry me! Why all the unprovoked attacks against Star Trek people. I am a Trekkie from way back, and I find myself grievously offended. Don’t you know that Trekkiness is next to godliness??
posted by msaligned at 5:28 PM on November 1, 2002
Trojan Horse: I am sorry if you have friends who are infected with HIV, but just because they are your friends and well-educated does not mean they are sensible. Anyone who knowingly puts themselves into a position (through alcohol, drugs, or whatever) to have unprotected sex is seriously missing something in the good sense department.
Getting back to the document that WolfDaddy originally sited though, if you look at the reasons that some people give for not wearing condoms, you have to seriously question more than just their good sense. Their sanity, perhaps.
And, Captain Supermarket, you worry me! Why all the unprovoked attacks against Star Trek people. I am a Trekkie from way back, and I find myself grievously offended. Don’t you know that Trekkiness is next to godliness??
posted by msaligned at 5:28 PM on November 1, 2002
PS: when the straights let us marry, you can repeat that and not be met with guffaws.
Hey, don't blame me because you can't marry, man. (Or is that "...because you can't marry man"?) I honestly don't care who you wed. Talk to the pogues in charge of running the lovely and efficient US government.
posted by Danelope at 6:14 PM on November 1, 2002
Hey, don't blame me because you can't marry, man. (Or is that "...because you can't marry man"?) I honestly don't care who you wed. Talk to the pogues in charge of running the lovely and efficient US government.
posted by Danelope at 6:14 PM on November 1, 2002
Alternatively, you could take the remarkable approach of keeping your pants on until you're married.
Oh, oissubke, you're for gay marriage then--dang, if you aren't more open minded than I'd ever expect! Your God is truly the God of Christ. And here I was expecting some creepy little innuendo from you. ;)
posted by y2karl at 7:35 PM on November 1, 2002
Oh, oissubke, you're for gay marriage then--dang, if you aren't more open minded than I'd ever expect! Your God is truly the God of Christ. And here I was expecting some creepy little innuendo from you. ;)
posted by y2karl at 7:35 PM on November 1, 2002
I think tristeza is right on all three counts. When I was giving out condoms in the 80s there was a lot of "I'll use this tonight at home." and never "Oh, wow, a free sex pass!"
When the danger was new and many were dying the population was scared. A lot of people probably took precaution because they felt you didn't really know what was causing the deaths. And the mindset then was HIV=DEATH.
The younger population has never lived in a world without HIV. For that group it has become background noise; the problem of a previous generation. Sadly, I fear that for some, only the death of a friend will make the danger "real. "
dash_slot: I know it was just a choice of words, but I think the attitude should be "When the straights legally recognize our marriages." Damn if some breeders think they get to decide who can marry and who can't.
posted by ?! at 7:52 PM on November 1, 2002
When the danger was new and many were dying the population was scared. A lot of people probably took precaution because they felt you didn't really know what was causing the deaths. And the mindset then was HIV=DEATH.
The younger population has never lived in a world without HIV. For that group it has become background noise; the problem of a previous generation. Sadly, I fear that for some, only the death of a friend will make the danger "real. "
dash_slot: I know it was just a choice of words, but I think the attitude should be "When the straights legally recognize our marriages." Damn if some breeders think they get to decide who can marry and who can't.
posted by ?! at 7:52 PM on November 1, 2002
Oh c'mon, guys, when oissubke's not pushing the envelope on the race baiting, he's doing the crypto-gaybash conga line--c'mon, you saw Spetters--you know what's going on here... @;)
posted by y2karl at 8:16 PM on November 1, 2002
posted by y2karl at 8:16 PM on November 1, 2002
I've seen several very well educated and smart friends bareback in the heat of the moment
well if you were standing there watching, why didn't you stop them?
posted by mcsweetie at 8:50 PM on November 1, 2002
well if you were standing there watching, why didn't you stop them?
posted by mcsweetie at 8:50 PM on November 1, 2002
And, Captain Supermarket, you worry me! Why all the unprovoked attacks against Star Trek people. I am a Trekkie from way back, and I find myself grievously offended. Don’t you know that Trekkiness is next to godliness??
huh, unprovoked attacks ?!, my claims are clearly substantiated. did you see the way that Kirk looked at the Gorn as they were fighting?
posted by Captain Supermarket at 9:47 PM on November 1, 2002
huh, unprovoked attacks ?!, my claims are clearly substantiated. did you see the way that Kirk looked at the Gorn as they were fighting?
posted by Captain Supermarket at 9:47 PM on November 1, 2002
well if you were standing there watching, why didn't you stop them?
ummm, hands were too busy (yes!! both hands!)
posted by Captain Supermarket at 9:49 PM on November 1, 2002
ummm, hands were too busy (yes!! both hands!)
posted by Captain Supermarket at 9:49 PM on November 1, 2002
Oh c'mon, guys, when oissubke's not pushing the envelope on the race baiting, he's doing the crypto-gaybash conga line--c'mon, you saw Spetters--you know what's going on here... @;)
I'm sorry, what? I neither care what someone's skin color is nor do I care what they do in their bedrooms. Are you implying that I'm a gaybashing bigot?
posted by oissubke at 10:01 PM on November 1, 2002
I'm sorry, what? I neither care what someone's skin color is nor do I care what they do in their bedrooms. Are you implying that I'm a gaybashing bigot?
posted by oissubke at 10:01 PM on November 1, 2002
"When the straights legally recognize our marriages." Damn if some breeders think they get to decide who can marry and who can't.
I am offended by your presumption that all straights are nasty breeders. Free yourself from stereotypes, d00d!
posted by rushmc at 10:42 PM on November 1, 2002
I am offended by your presumption that all straights are nasty breeders. Free yourself from stereotypes, d00d!
posted by rushmc at 10:42 PM on November 1, 2002
"If both men are not infected with HIV, nor any other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), barebacking is 100% safe from infectious diseases. In this case, barebacking falls under the category of "safe sex.""
Is it just me, or is that totally rhetorical nonsense?
posted by Electrin at 11:59 PM on November 1, 2002
Is it just me, or is that totally rhetorical nonsense?
posted by Electrin at 11:59 PM on November 1, 2002
This one guy whose blood was unable to contract aids because of a gene mutation.
There is a small group of people who seem to be able to fight off HIV.
I have a female friend who has been exposed to the virus twice (neither time was her fault, although I won't expand here. Use your imagination) and managed to fight it off twice.
I can't even imagine learning you are HIV+, then negative, then getting infected again, and getting a negative result back 6 months later...
Sticking a rubber on your dick doesn't save all the world's ills (although it helps). There are people who can't use the things...
posted by twine42 at 12:12 AM on November 2, 2002
There is a small group of people who seem to be able to fight off HIV.
I have a female friend who has been exposed to the virus twice (neither time was her fault, although I won't expand here. Use your imagination) and managed to fight it off twice.
I can't even imagine learning you are HIV+, then negative, then getting infected again, and getting a negative result back 6 months later...
Sticking a rubber on your dick doesn't save all the world's ills (although it helps). There are people who can't use the things...
posted by twine42 at 12:12 AM on November 2, 2002
Oh, if syphalis is on the rise, will we see a rise in sales of Merkins? ;)
posted by twine42 at 12:14 AM on November 2, 2002
posted by twine42 at 12:14 AM on November 2, 2002
Okay, class...what have we learned to this point?
1. That not using a condom can cause you to get infected with really bad things and die.
2. That some people who should use condoms don't, and for really stupid reasons.
3. We all hope that "stupid" gene gets eliminated from the pool really, really quickly.
Questions??
posted by msaligned at 6:01 AM on November 2, 2002
1. That not using a condom can cause you to get infected with really bad things and die.
2. That some people who should use condoms don't, and for really stupid reasons.
3. We all hope that "stupid" gene gets eliminated from the pool really, really quickly.
Questions??
posted by msaligned at 6:01 AM on November 2, 2002
I have one question, msaligned: *raising hand*
umm, regarding your #3 : in a country where "Jackass-The Movie" is tops at the box office, and we have a president who can't even speak in complete sentences with proper words, isn't stupidity actually being celebrated and rewarded in society lately?
posted by amberglow at 7:45 AM on November 2, 2002
umm, regarding your #3 : in a country where "Jackass-The Movie" is tops at the box office, and we have a president who can't even speak in complete sentences with proper words, isn't stupidity actually being celebrated and rewarded in society lately?
posted by amberglow at 7:45 AM on November 2, 2002
oh, make that "reckless and dangerous stupidity"...
posted by amberglow at 7:46 AM on November 2, 2002
posted by amberglow at 7:46 AM on November 2, 2002
rushmc: I never said all straights are nasty breeders. I'm sure there are nice breeders, and happy breeders, and clean breeders. I've met sleepy breeders, and snooty breeders. Where I work there are successful breeders and hungry breeders. In my neighborhood I've met childless breeders and breeders with rose bushes.
I've even met breeders who think gays should not be allowed to marry, have or adopt children.
That's why I said "some."
captainsupermarket: I first thought "hey, that wasn't me." Now I know why I shouldn't have chosen the nick ?!, but interrobang had beat me to Metafilter membership.
posted by ?! at 8:20 AM on November 2, 2002
I've even met breeders who think gays should not be allowed to marry, have or adopt children.
That's why I said "some."
captainsupermarket: I first thought "hey, that wasn't me." Now I know why I shouldn't have chosen the nick ?!, but interrobang had beat me to Metafilter membership.
posted by ?! at 8:20 AM on November 2, 2002
rushmc: Thanks for your clarification. You can email me if you really think I've missed your point. Your ball.
posted by ?! at 1:34 PM on November 2, 2002
posted by ?! at 1:34 PM on November 2, 2002
That's okay. It would be impossible for me to make it any clearer than I did in my previous comment, so I'm content to leave it at that.
posted by rushmc at 1:40 PM on November 2, 2002
posted by rushmc at 1:40 PM on November 2, 2002
rushmc: unless it's the word 'breeders', Surely the use of the word "some" in this passage
- Damn if some breeders think they get to decide who can marry and who can't. means it;s not aimed at a whole group?
posted by dash_slot- at 4:13 PM on November 2, 2002
- Damn if some breeders think they get to decide who can marry and who can't. means it;s not aimed at a whole group?
posted by dash_slot- at 4:13 PM on November 2, 2002
rushmc: unless it's the word 'breeders'
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
That's kind of why I said "I am offended by your presumption that all straights are nasty breeders" instead of "I am offended by your presumption that all breeders are nasty," which inexplicably seems to be the way you all read it.
In any case, it was tongue-in-cheek, so forget it.
posted by rushmc at 10:54 PM on November 2, 2002
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
That's kind of why I said "I am offended by your presumption that all straights are nasty breeders" instead of "I am offended by your presumption that all breeders are nasty," which inexplicably seems to be the way you all read it.
In any case, it was tongue-in-cheek, so forget it.
posted by rushmc at 10:54 PM on November 2, 2002
I've seen several very well educated and smart friends bareback in the heat of the moment
well if you were standing there watching, why didn't you stop them?
Ah, mcsweetie, you raise an interesting question... Why didn't he?
Arguably, because he shouldn't have. Admittedly, depending on his relationship to this person, a reminder might have been appropriate, along the lines of "Hey, buddy, stop and think for a second." Even that isn't necessarily any of his business.
Reduced to the baselines, to play safer or less so (and we must acknowledge that it's ALWAYS a positioning within a spectrum) is a personal decision made by the individuals involved.
posted by theRegent at 12:16 PM on November 8, 2002
well if you were standing there watching, why didn't you stop them?
Ah, mcsweetie, you raise an interesting question... Why didn't he?
Arguably, because he shouldn't have. Admittedly, depending on his relationship to this person, a reminder might have been appropriate, along the lines of "Hey, buddy, stop and think for a second." Even that isn't necessarily any of his business.
Reduced to the baselines, to play safer or less so (and we must acknowledge that it's ALWAYS a positioning within a spectrum) is a personal decision made by the individuals involved.
posted by theRegent at 12:16 PM on November 8, 2002
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posted by bradth27 at 12:31 PM on November 1, 2002