Bethany Yarrow

February 18, 2003 9:15 AM

Peter Yarrow's daughter confronts the new police state. Notes from the peace rally in NYC last weekend. Is the next generation ready to stand up for its rights?
posted by anser (59 comments total)

Not to sound like a troll, but was I supposed to get anything (new) out of reading that besides "she got to the protest late, it was crowded, and she got to see the rear of a horse upclose for longer than she would have liked"?
posted by stifford at 9:24 AM on February 18, 2003

Hasn't "the next generation" been standing up for its rights pretty consistently since the WTO protests in 1999?
posted by arielmeadow at 9:24 AM on February 18, 2003

Remember folks, a large city equipped with a green police force trying to balance the right to assembly with public safety and traffic flow equals police state.
posted by machaus at 9:25 AM on February 18, 2003

Why should I care the daughter of some guy in a band I've never heard of thinks?
posted by gyc at 9:28 AM on February 18, 2003

If you can freely write about life in a "police state," you probably don't live in a police state.
posted by Ljubljana at 9:33 AM on February 18, 2003

good for her... probably better links on this subject matter out there.


on the subject of warmongers - i think this one deserves another post. ready for world war III?
posted by specialk420 at 9:34 AM on February 18, 2003

So, although the streets and avenues have been blocked, we, the penned-in protesters, are incredibly calm and non- confrontational, given the circumstances and the fact our civil liberties have just been reduced to levels reminiscent of, oh... the Pinochet dictatorship in Chile in the mid-80s

And the award for the most ridiculous exaggeration of 2003 goes to...
posted by pardonyou? at 9:34 AM on February 18, 2003

There may be a case to be made that the City handled the protest improperly, but this self important ("I am the streets and the sidewalks and the air of this city.") and silly ("especially this thing called liberty... which is also what I am") person is not the one to make them.

Her argument is - I didn't get what I want the way I wanted it - Police State! Police State! My husband is from Chile so I know!
posted by Jos Bleau at 9:37 AM on February 18, 2003

gyc et al: who cares who she is? She makes some good points about the trampling of rights of those who disagree with the war-mongering, "moral" majority in power.

Who will hold the police to account for their disgraceful behaviour? Public safety had nothing to do with it from what I've read. The police action seemed to me to be 100% politically motivated.

Why was it possible for Rome, Madrid, Paris, London and countless other cities to have huge, peaceful protest marches in their ancient centres with no incidents, when NYC with its traffic-friendly grid system, couldn't handle a few hundred thousand would-be marchers without cavalry charges, multiple arrests and general intimidation?
posted by cbrody at 9:44 AM on February 18, 2003

The police action seemed to me to be 100% politically motivated.

Please cite examples.
posted by machaus at 9:50 AM on February 18, 2003

when NYC with its traffic-friendly grid system

huh? traffic in NYC sucks on a good day...
posted by stifford at 9:51 AM on February 18, 2003

Is the next generation ready to stand up for its rights?

As long as Patrick Stewart doesn't tell us to get a life.
posted by condour75 at 9:51 AM on February 18, 2003

compared to Rome and London, NYC traffic is a cakewalk.
posted by condour75 at 9:53 AM on February 18, 2003

Why should I care the daughter of some guy in a band I've never heard of thinks?

Heh. Y'know If I had a hammer, I'd use it on peter, paul and mary...

**puts on Merle Haggard record**

Get a job, you fuckin' hippies....:)
posted by jonmc at 9:57 AM on February 18, 2003

Not a great front page post, but you know what? I'll bet this would have been a perfect place for it.
posted by languagehat at 10:08 AM on February 18, 2003

I'm sorry, but only a spoiled brat would refer to (or have the freedoms to) refer to a "police state" with such straight-faced casualness.

Also priceless, though inadvertantly:
I now find myself in the midst of tens of thousands of people who are trying to get to the rally, but we are all corralled like sheep...

Ah, yes. Outright anarchy and disorder would have served the cause much better. Why's The Man always trying to corral us, d00d? While I applaud people for expressing their opinions in NYC, I could've done without this whiner's (Bethany Yarrow's) sensationalism & vanity, no matter whose celebrity daughter she is.
posted by dhoyt at 10:16 AM on February 18, 2003

rafe has an excellent post concerning the protests - a the subsequent reponse to them from you know how.
posted by specialk420 at 10:18 AM on February 18, 2003

**puts on Merle Haggard record**

Merle's against the war, too.
posted by liam at 10:20 AM on February 18, 2003

Just for the record, one of the more vociferous bloggers to say 'smelly leftist protesters will shit all over New York' claimed, in advance of the rally: "Nobody will be corralled." In fact, she was quite vehement about this.

Looks like she might want to complain to the NYPD and its bosses in City Hall for their making a liar of her. Or perhaps she should just tone down the rhetoric in future.
posted by riviera at 10:29 AM on February 18, 2003

machaus: Stories of police action not in accordance with their stated role ("to enhance the quality of life in our City by working in partnership with the community" etc etc.) abound. This either points to a) misconduct on the part of individual officers or b) instructions from above authorising such action.

As a) is very unlikely, I would suggest that the NYPD's actions to suppress the rally (including keeping groups of would-be protesters penned up and unable to join the main rally, and going to court to try to ban it altogether) were certainly politically motivated and authorised.
posted by cbrody at 10:42 AM on February 18, 2003

As requested before.

When in doubt, feel free to sling assumptions and stereotypes far and wide.
posted by dhoyt at 10:47 AM on February 18, 2003

Merle's against the war, too.

Well, geez, what more do ya need to hear Dubya? Call it off, yer bringin' out the Fightin' Side Of Me and Merle now.
posted by jonmc at 10:51 AM on February 18, 2003

"I am the streets and the sidewalks and the air of this city"

-Bethany.

i wonder if she will let us eat cake.
posted by clavdivs at 10:52 AM on February 18, 2003

If you can freely write about life in a "police state," you probably don't live in a police state.

Absolutely right. In the future, please wait until after they suspend all civil liberties before speaking out about it.

(frog, water, etc.)
posted by majcher at 11:38 AM on February 18, 2003

If one more person refers to the United States as a "police state" I'm going to be forced to round up all you dissidents, place you in forced labor camps, force the employers of your friends and relatives to fire them, shut down all of the newspapers, TV and radio stations (and your little blogs) and replace them with ones run by the state...

(on preview, that others have said)
posted by gwint at 11:44 AM on February 18, 2003

I would agree that it's pure baloney to describe U.S. society as a police state. There are troubling things going on, sure, and potentially dangerous scenarios on the horizon, and we should all be watchful, but using the term "police state" as Yarrow does tells me that Yarrow doesn't have any idea what a police state actually is, just as anyone waving a sign which equates Bush with Hitler might as well be waving a sign that says "I Am A Fucking Idiot."

The news footage I saw of the belligerent, provocative actions of the mounted police, though, was very disturbing, and it resembles a lot of police action that I've seen at demonstrations post- WTO Seattle, where cops are so agressive as to actively incite violence, and then gang up and club anyone who protests. It's wrong, it's illegal, and these cops should be disciplined. If they can't handle the job without freaking out, maybe they should consider magician's assistant school.
posted by Ty Webb at 1:09 PM on February 18, 2003

Ms. Yarrow does seem to have had some exposure to real oppression.

I wonder which is more important - the brutality that people witness, or the literary merits of the way they tell about them afterwards?
posted by anser at 1:21 PM on February 18, 2003

*singin to myself*

Siiiinng, Autumn to May...
posted by Wulfgar! at 1:43 PM on February 18, 2003

How can anyone sympathize with an "ANSWER spokewoman" having fear in her face. ANSWER are open supporters of (among others) Kim-il Jong and the late great Joseph Stalin. A bullet in the head is too good for them, considering what they'd do to us if given the power.
posted by MattD at 1:54 PM on February 18, 2003

A bullet in the head is too good for them, considering what they'd do to us if given the power.


Ah, the call for pre-emptive murder. I was waiting for that one.
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:10 PM on February 18, 2003

I wonder which is more important - the brutality that people witness, or the literary merits of the way they tell about them afterwards?

Interesting question. Let's table that for when Ms. Yarrow actually witnesses some brutality. And by "brutality" I don't mean having to wait in the cold, having to drive across a bridge, or having to see a horse's ass up close.
posted by pardonyou? at 2:53 PM on February 18, 2003

Bethany, surprised to find herself the topic of a MeFi discussion, asked me to post this on her behalf (and how could I refuse?):

Excuse me.... but there are a few things I'd like to clear up. First... I
never said that the U.S. is a police state. The fact that title of the post,
which I had absolutely nothing to do with, is called "Yarrow's daughter
confronts the new police state" does not reflect what I, in fact, wrote. So
shoot the messenger, but leave me out of it.

What I DID say was that at the rally, on the corner of 53rd and 3rd Ave, our
civil liberties had been reduced to levels REMINISCENT of... a police
state... (no freedom of movement, no freedom of assembly, police
intimidation, etc.) If you had been there, which you clearly were not, I
guarantee that you would have felt the same.

In spite of the "my first rally comment," which was sweet, I have been going
to rallies and marches since before I could talk... not to mention singing at
demonstrations for crowds of up to 2 million people all over the world: in
New York, DC, Los Angeles, Central America, South Africa, the Middle East,
Chile (were I lived for two years) and the Philippines ... but NEVER have I
seen this kind of behavior from the police when responding to a completely
peaceful crowd.. . (although I have seen several very violent demonstrations
in the West Bank/Gaza/ and in the townships of CapeTown).

But Feb. 15th in NYC on 3rd Ave. was peaceful... there were no anarchists
breaking anything... there were people young and old, children writing peace
messages on the pavement with chalk, college kids dancing to their own beat
and North Koreans drumming and singing on the sidewalk.... so the mayhem
producing anarchists seem to have taken a pass on the 15th.

Look, I was born after the Vietnam war had already ended, so I know an
America that is prosperous and generally at peace and I have been fortunate
enough to take my freedoms for granted. The wake-up call of the rally was
that under this administration and in this climate no one can take their
freedoms and civil liberties for granted. They are being slowly eroded in
subtle and not so subtle ways. And at that moment, penned in by cops it did
NOT feel like the America, or the New York that I know.... and it did not
bode well for the future.

My reaction to the rally is just that: a short personal reaction. To be run
over by horses is not a fun experience... but my husband's toes are the least
of my worries at this point. ...And if I sound pretentious and spoiled and
like a whiney brat so be it. Put it all in the mix and play your Merle
Haggard as loud as you can.... and thank god there is someone left in the
world who has never heard of Puff the Magic Dragon.

-- Bethany

posted by cbrody at 2:57 PM on February 18, 2003

MeFi arrogance strikes again. Does it occur to many of you people that when you say absolute shite like:

Why should I care the daughter of some guy in a band I've never heard of thinks?

Heh. Y'know If I had a hammer, I'd use it on peter, paul and mary...

i wonder if she will let us eat cake.

While I applaud people for expressing their opinions in NYC, I could've done without this whiner's (Bethany Yarrow's) sensationalism & vanity, no matter whose celebrity daughter she is.

that you are flinging the shitty bile of your own egos at a person who didn't ask to be put here as a foil for your vanity? She posted her impressions on her website, as do many of you. But, because she is the daughter of someone famous, her opinions are worthy of being drug through the mud, for much part because many of you don't know or like the music of her father. In my opinion, you're the one's missing out, not her.

Many warbloggers posted thier stupidly self-rightious impressions of the protests on their weblogs (having experienced nothing but the burn of their couches on their oh so righteous fat asses). How's about I start posting those to MetaFilter as well? Oh wait, that wouldn't be as much fun, because their parents aren't known for singing songs of history and joy and wonder, which are all the rage to diss nowadays. Their parents never actually took them places, and helped them experience things which we could deride as "privilege".

My suggestion: Lets crank back the cool-geek 'tude a bit, shall we? Read this post for what she has to say, and comment on that. Don't waste your will-to-power on how she said it. If you don't think it significant, then move along, 'nothing to see here. Commenting from apathy is just stupid ego; counting coup where it doesn't matter at all.

To Bethany, for what its worth, I have heard of "Puff the Magic Dragon". I haven't ever held it against your father, nor would I hold it against you. I grew up being delighted by that song, though I prefer "Autumn to May" or "Cruel War". You go, girl.

(Merle Haggard? Is that the best counter you could come up with, Jonmc?)
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:48 PM on February 18, 2003

Well said, Wulfgar!. And cbrody, thanks for posting her response; she clearly deserved a chance to respond to the crap that's been flung in this thread. Alas, "cool-geek 'tude" is the stock-in-trade of MetaFilter, and very few here would be willing to give it up just because it's completely uncalled-for. Bethany, if you're reading this, I was a block away from you and felt the same way; those mounted cops were frightening, and I saw them ride people down on Second Avenue.

To quote cbrody's words from farther up the thread, words which nobody's seen fit to respond to:

Why was it possible for Rome, Madrid, Paris, London and countless other cities to have huge, peaceful protest marches in their ancient centres with no incidents, when NYC with its traffic-friendly grid system, couldn't handle a few hundred thousand would-be marchers without cavalry charges, multiple arrests and general intimidation?

And MattD? Your last remark was vile, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
posted by languagehat at 4:01 PM on February 18, 2003

Thanks languagehat, but my question was rhetorical and I never expected it to be answered, as it more or less answers itself.

NY: protesters: ~500,000. Armed police: 5000+. Reports of brutality: Many. Arrests: 250+ .
London: protesters: ~2,000,000. Armed police: 0. Reports of brutality: 0. Arrests: 3.

It's quite clear (to me) that the trouble was caused by the policing and by nothing else.
posted by cbrody at 4:23 PM on February 18, 2003

Reading some of these responses reminds me that somewhere people are paid by the government to post propaganda to different message boards. Does BB pay well? Or is it a way to put meaning in an otherwise meaningless life?
posted by joemeek at 4:26 PM on February 18, 2003

pardonyou? I assure you, I'm quite used to seeing horses asses up close. What was shocking to me about the protest was the following:

1. As I was walking down the street a police officer drove up behind me on his scooter and ran into me. He then drove off before I could get his badge number.

2. A group of police officers got in a police van and drove it into a crowd.

3. Another group of police officers drove horses into a crowd of people who were already backed against a wall. (I admit that doesn't sound that frightening, it's a lot scarier than you'd think. You'll have to trust me on that.)

That's repression. It might not be as bad as repression in Chile during pinochet's regime, and nobody died, like in Tienamen square. But are you really comfortable finding solace in that? Are you really comfortable saying, 'well, it's not nazi germany... so it's ok...'

Here's the America I want: I want the one where we have freedom to speak and to argue and to picket and to protest and to tell our friends we hate the president and her policies without fear of someone spying on us, and threatening us, or causing us physical harm.

the anarchists seem to have taken a pass on the 15th.
Sorry about that.
posted by goneill at 4:38 PM on February 18, 2003

Oh, and in case it's not clear. They 'back' horses into people because horses hate to step on people, so they drive them into crowds backwords so the horses will actually do it.
posted by goneill at 4:43 PM on February 18, 2003

This is the kind of crap I was thinking of when I posted in another thread. I wonder why so many here are so f-ing mean? It's not like you were required to comment. And if you feel you must, but disagree with the topic/person/etc, does it always need to be so foul?

I'm glad I kept on reading though, to see people like Wulfgar! and languagehat respond. Even more pleased that I could read Bethany's response. I don't know if she'll read this, but my sons rallied in NY on the 15th and reported pretty much most of what she witnessed/experienced as well. I have to share her feelings to a degree that the mood is set for a possible police state-like existence in NY. Things are changing people. I think we need to pay attention because there will be quiz later. Papers, comrade?
posted by LouReedsSon at 5:12 PM on February 18, 2003

No mention of the "police snipers" who were reported to be manning the rooftops. Someone complained about them, as if their purpose was to threaten marchers; but I wonder how much of what was going on behind the scenes was to "protect" the marchers, and from what?
posted by kablam at 5:46 PM on February 18, 2003

Put it all in the mix and play your Merle
Haggard as loud as you can....

(Merle Haggard? Is that the best counter you could come up with, Jonmc?)

Don't you get it, both me and Merle are on your side...oh well, there's only me to blame cos Mama Tried, Mama Tried...
posted by jonmc at 6:10 PM on February 18, 2003

I assure you, I'm quite used to seeing horses asses up close.

Why else would she keep coming to Metafilter?
posted by jonmc at 6:18 PM on February 18, 2003

It was just too tempting....
posted by jonmc at 6:19 PM on February 18, 2003

Here's the America I want: I want the one where we have freedom to speak and to argue and to picket and to protest and to tell our friends we hate the president and her policies without fear of someone spying on us, and threatening us, or causing us physical harm.

Just stay away from New Mexico:

"A former Santa Fe public defender who said he was handcuffed Thursday at the St. John's College library and interrogated by Secret Service agents for several hours said Saturday that he plans to sue the government for violating his rights."
posted by homunculus at 7:05 PM on February 18, 2003

What I find interesting is that so many people seem not to CARE that there are legitimate security concerns here... especially when a group like ANSWER (openly anti democracy and anti-US) are having such an easy time whipping people into a frenzy.

If your in a crowd with thousands of others at a rally covered nationally in the news and widely covered ont he web - as well as having the freedom to comment on it without fear or retribution...

Then using the term "police state" just shows how confused you are.
posted by soulhuntre at 7:06 PM on February 18, 2003

not to be a dick or anything, but if one has never seen cops pen people in, beat and tear gas them, and deny them their constitutional rights it says less about the current administration than it does about the neighborhood that person lives in.

that being said, if cops are about to stop treating all americans like they treat young black men, the end is near for us all.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 7:50 PM on February 18, 2003

that you are flinging the shitty bile of your own egos at a person who didn't ask to be put here as a foil for your vanity?

"I am the streets and the sidewalks and the air of this city"

and this is not ego packed diatribe. I do not like what happened to her but her "I am" comment is shite.

FYI, I love PP&M. I have seen them perform and grew up with there music.

Read this post for what she has to say, and comment on that. Don't waste your will-to-power on how she said it I did, and i found her comment negating the things i found worthy.
Don't single me out wulfgar or lump me in those other comments. You want an analysis of her words?....they seem pretty srtaightforward to me...she is angry and sad. We all have egos but come on.

New York, DC, Los Angeles, Central America, South Africa, the Middle East,
Chile (were I lived for two years) and the Philippines ... but NEVER have I
seen this kind of behavior from the police when responding to a completely
peaceful crowd

no offense but you have not been to enough. (like who would....)
posted by clavdivs at 7:52 PM on February 18, 2003

"What were those ugly little things?"

"Those?" she said, hanging her coat on the hook. "Oh, those are just MetaFilter crabs. Don't worry - they always skitter away when a person enters the room."

"Can't you get rid of them?"

"Oh no," she said, "I really couldn't. Besides, I've grown quite accustomed to them."

"At night, when the lights are out, they gather themselves into groups, and they seem to talk to each other. The sound they make is a mixture of whispers and buzzes, and taken together, the sum is a soft white noise. That gentle noise is the undisturbed hush of this house, and is sweetly more silent than silence itself."
posted by Opus Dark at 10:53 PM on February 18, 2003

pardonyou? I assure you, I'm quite used to seeing horses asses up close. What was shocking to me about the protest was the following:...

I don't know, goneill. Obviously I wasn't there, so I can't address your particular experience. My original point was only that Bethany Yarrow's description of events didn't sound like she witnessed "brutality" (and you have to admit that the events you describe are much more physical than those she describes -- given her obvious gift for flowery description, I'm sure she would have informed us if someone had hit her with a scooter or if she had seen a van driven into a crowd).

But all that being said, I still find that those who are most indignant about the police presence are giving absolutely no weight to the fact that there were hundreds of thousands of people amassed in Manhattan, near the U.N. Under any circumstance that's a crowd control nightmare. Sure it would be "nice" if the police could always keep a respectful distance (or remove their "full riot regalia"), but they have an obligation to ensure the safety of those at the rally, those not at the rally, and the private property adjacent to the rally. I'm sorry but that just might involve having to move some of the crowd in a direction they don't want to go. I humbly submit that if you consider that brutality or repression, you don't really know what those words mean.
posted by pardonyou? at 6:51 AM on February 19, 2003

I find that those who aren't indignant about the police repression are those who weren't there and who don't know what they are talking about.
posted by goneill at 7:21 AM on February 19, 2003

I was there. The closest I got to the protest site was 53rd between 2nd and 3rd, which was pretty close, actually. I probably spent three hours total in the crowd, first trying to get to the site, then just trying to join the largest group I could find.

I saw shoving and yelling, but that's about it. Some of the tactics people have mentioned (pepper spray against people that couldn't move) sound bad, and worthy of complaint. But given the circumstances, I'm not indignant about what I personally saw.
posted by lbergstr at 7:32 AM on February 19, 2003

like I said...
posted by joemeek at 7:40 AM on February 19, 2003

opus dark is sharing part of his workshop novel with us...how nice.
posted by clavdivs at 8:11 AM on February 19, 2003

Riiight. By the way, my photos from the day are here if anyone wants to see them.

joemeek, were you there?
posted by lbergstr at 8:20 AM on February 19, 2003

I find that those who aren't indignant about the police repression are those who weren't there and who don't know what they are talking about.

Why? My definition of "repress" means quashing, quelling, supressing, putting down by force. Was the rally quashed? Were people supressed from expressing their views? Or (as is more likely the case), did they -- like you and Ms. Yarrow -- feel emboldened by these tactics? Did they feel they should speak out even louder? My point all along, goneill, has been that words like repression and brutality, have actual meaning, and shouldn't be tossed around like propoganda. Classifying the conduct you witnessed (and, apparently, rebelled against) as "repression" devalues the word.

But, of course, I wasn't there, so I must not know what I'm talking about.
posted by pardonyou? at 8:21 AM on February 19, 2003

I still find that those who are most indignant about the police presence are giving absolutely no weight to the fact that there were hundreds of thousands of people amassed in Manhattan, near the U.N. Under any circumstance that's a crowd control nightmare.

At the London rally 2m people peacefully passed within feet of Westminster and 10 Downing St with a minimal police presence. I saw no mounted police, no shields, no helmets, nothing. It wasn't 'us and them'. The police that were there were there merely to direct the flow of the marchers and acted like stewards.

So why the difference in New York? It's not as if the British police haven't been capable of brutish crowd-control tactics in the past. Maybe they learnt from this.

words like repression and brutality, have actual meaning, and shouldn't be tossed around like propoganda

There are some people who believe that what happens in Western democracies must be in essence different from what happens in other places, even if the actions are exactly the same. If it's repression, it's repression, full stop. If you're arrested for doing nothing but peacefully protesting it's repression. If you're attacked for doing nothing but walking in the street it's brutality. Doesn't matter if the Government is democratic or totalitarian, it's all the same.
posted by Summer at 8:44 AM on February 19, 2003

quashing, quelling, supressing, putting down by force. People were barred from going to a protest, by force. I'd say that clears things up nicely, and we can all agree that it was repression, by your definition.
posted by goneill at 8:58 AM on February 19, 2003

Wulfgar, languagehat, and LouReedsSon, too, my hat, if I had one, would be off to you. You go, um.. guys.
posted by y2karl at 12:20 PM on February 19, 2003

there are lots of other accounts out there, such as "NYPD Blocks Access to Anti-War Protest", links to early WABC, NY Daily News and NY Times coverage here, a story at NJ.com about Legal Observers and March organizers reporting widespread police misconduct and finally New York Civil Liberties Union seeks Witnesses to Police Misconduct at Rally which includes still photos and video captures of police running into the crowds with horses, spraying tear gas and punching people in the head
posted by Babylonian at 4:49 PM on February 19, 2003