Munchies
June 8, 2003 6:48 AM Subscribe
Ontario land of beautiful parks, vibrant nightlife, and as of June 6th, smoking pot is completely legal. What's striking is the silent acceptance of this by the Canadian public, who overwhelmingly sees the current laws as archaic.
Previous discussion.
I would like to know what the deal is with the legislation to increase penalties for growing and trafficking
posted by timb at 7:00 AM on June 8, 2003
posted by timb at 7:00 AM on June 8, 2003
If the police want to catch drug dealers who sell more than just pot all they have to do is ask one of two of the increasingly less paranoid, more stupid kids where they buy from, them thinking it's n big deal anymore since they'll have no trouble getting more.
Which is actually good. Someone selling harder drugs should be thrown in jail anyway.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:10 AM on June 8, 2003
Which is actually good. Someone selling harder drugs should be thrown in jail anyway.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:10 AM on June 8, 2003
decriminalized != completely legal
True, but we are talking about two different issues. The decriminalization of marijuana in Canada VS the recent court decision in Ontario.
posted by CrazyJub at 8:01 AM on June 8, 2003
True, but we are talking about two different issues. The decriminalization of marijuana in Canada VS the recent court decision in Ontario.
posted by CrazyJub at 8:01 AM on June 8, 2003
decriminalized != completely legal
This is a slightly different issue from the decriminalization issue. Aside from the obvious political motivation of the police chiefs, it is more like:
Law Not enforced != completely legal
posted by srboisvert at 8:03 AM on June 8, 2003
This is a slightly different issue from the decriminalization issue. Aside from the obvious political motivation of the police chiefs, it is more like:
Law Not enforced != completely legal
posted by srboisvert at 8:03 AM on June 8, 2003
Fantino's press conference announcing no more possession charges is probably very much tied in with the desparation of the tourism industry in Toronto with this whole SARS rigamarole, or at least the police averting their eyes wouldn't have happened without the emptying out of the hotel rooms.
Not to say that's a bad thing though.
posted by syscom at 8:06 AM on June 8, 2003
Not to say that's a bad thing though.
posted by syscom at 8:06 AM on June 8, 2003
As Krunk notes, decriminalization is not the same as legalization. To which I'd add, that it hasn't even officially been decriminalized. The federal government apparently plans to officially, legistlatively decriminalize, but all these stories note is that most Ontario cops are being asked by their departments not to bother arresting smokeheads. They'll still take your stash from you, still be gunning for dealers (which you would become if you have more than 30grams on you), and they could, if you pissed them off and they couldn't come up with anything else, arrest you under the still existing pot laws just to mess up your life for a few days. At which point, you'd probably be released because our courts are increasingly bored with the issue, as well, but all of this does not even add up to real decriminalization, never mind real legalization.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:08 AM on June 8, 2003
posted by jacquilynne at 8:08 AM on June 8, 2003
...anything else, arrest you under the still existing pot laws just to mess up your life for a few days.
From the Toronto Star:
"Since then, judges across Ontario have followed Rogin's lead and thrown out charges against people accused of possessing less than 30 grams of the drug. Like Rogin, they've relied on a decision from the Ontario Court of Appeal two years ago in the case of Terry Parker, a Toronto man who asserted a constitutional right to smoke marijuana for treatment of his epilepsy.
The appeal court told the federal government that, if it didn't find a way to accommodate medical users by July, 2002, the criminal prohibitions on simple possession would fall." Since the parlement is about to ajourn for the summer, guess what. After July 2002 it's free pot land of the North!
posted by CrazyJub at 8:11 AM on June 8, 2003
From the Toronto Star:
"Since then, judges across Ontario have followed Rogin's lead and thrown out charges against people accused of possessing less than 30 grams of the drug. Like Rogin, they've relied on a decision from the Ontario Court of Appeal two years ago in the case of Terry Parker, a Toronto man who asserted a constitutional right to smoke marijuana for treatment of his epilepsy.
The appeal court told the federal government that, if it didn't find a way to accommodate medical users by July, 2002, the criminal prohibitions on simple possession would fall." Since the parlement is about to ajourn for the summer, guess what. After July 2002 it's free pot land of the North!
posted by CrazyJub at 8:11 AM on June 8, 2003
One major issue that should always be mentioned when talking about decriminalizing/legalizing marijuana, or especially hemp production:
U.S. mills produced 31 percent (57 million metric tons (mmt)) of global (wood) pulp production...
Which means *both* that hemp can overnight become a multi-billion dollar industry, and could *destroy* an existing multi-billion dollar industry. And no multi-billion dollar industry can be expected to go down without a fight.
posted by kablam at 8:17 AM on June 8, 2003
U.S. mills produced 31 percent (57 million metric tons (mmt)) of global (wood) pulp production...
Which means *both* that hemp can overnight become a multi-billion dollar industry, and could *destroy* an existing multi-billion dollar industry. And no multi-billion dollar industry can be expected to go down without a fight.
posted by kablam at 8:17 AM on June 8, 2003
Meanwhile, in the U.S.:
"An agent of the federal Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) used threats of RAVE Act prosecutions to intimidate the owners of a Billings, Montana, venue into a canceling a combined benefit for the Montana chapter of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (http://www.norml.org) and Students for Sensible Drug Policy (http://www.ssdp.org) last week."
posted by homunculus at 10:18 AM on June 8, 2003
"An agent of the federal Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) used threats of RAVE Act prosecutions to intimidate the owners of a Billings, Montana, venue into a canceling a combined benefit for the Montana chapter of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (http://www.norml.org) and Students for Sensible Drug Policy (http://www.ssdp.org) last week."
posted by homunculus at 10:18 AM on June 8, 2003
Law Not enforced != completely legal
I just wish it *was* completely legal; I live in Ontario, and I think the government should regulate the sale of it to rake in huge amounts of cash, just as they do for liquor.
For non-Ontarians: the only place to buy liquor and beer in the province [excluding bars and restaurants] is in government-run/sanctioned/whatever stores known as the LCBO and The Beer Store (it's actual name!).
While this may sound all crazy & socialist, LCBO's are great stores, with an amazing free magazine, and many feature in-store kitchens with chefs showing how to cook with their products. And beer samples for $0.25!
Look at this speech from the LCBO's website about the kind of cash they make:
"People have always had alternatives to the LCBO. Across the border or on the black market. Making their own beer and wine or shopping at Beer Stores and Ontario winery stores.
LCBO has 45% of the $7.6 billion Ontario beverage alcohol market, so we have to earn our share."
I think they should do the same thing for pot -- that's a lot of money!
posted by krunk at 11:02 AM on June 8, 2003
I just wish it *was* completely legal; I live in Ontario, and I think the government should regulate the sale of it to rake in huge amounts of cash, just as they do for liquor.
For non-Ontarians: the only place to buy liquor and beer in the province [excluding bars and restaurants] is in government-run/sanctioned/whatever stores known as the LCBO and The Beer Store (it's actual name!).
While this may sound all crazy & socialist, LCBO's are great stores, with an amazing free magazine, and many feature in-store kitchens with chefs showing how to cook with their products. And beer samples for $0.25!
Look at this speech from the LCBO's website about the kind of cash they make:
"People have always had alternatives to the LCBO. Across the border or on the black market. Making their own beer and wine or shopping at Beer Stores and Ontario winery stores.
LCBO has 45% of the $7.6 billion Ontario beverage alcohol market, so we have to earn our share."
I think they should do the same thing for pot -- that's a lot of money!
posted by krunk at 11:02 AM on June 8, 2003
Krunk, I will come to learn the proper preparation of brownies if that happens! Woot.
posted by billsaysthis at 11:25 AM on June 8, 2003
posted by billsaysthis at 11:25 AM on June 8, 2003
...probably very much tied in with the desparation of the tourism industry in Toronto...
This has been brewing for some time before SARS, when judges started to throw out trials for possession of small amounts. The police have been asking for clarification for some time I think, and I can't see them using this as a way to bring people to the city. After all, everyone knows the pot in TO is low-grade compared to BC :)
posted by holycola at 11:31 AM on June 8, 2003
This has been brewing for some time before SARS, when judges started to throw out trials for possession of small amounts. The police have been asking for clarification for some time I think, and I can't see them using this as a way to bring people to the city. After all, everyone knows the pot in TO is low-grade compared to BC :)
posted by holycola at 11:31 AM on June 8, 2003
Where are the research economists monitoring the price?
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:38 PM on June 8, 2003
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:38 PM on June 8, 2003
To clear up a small inaccuracy - while the LCBO is owned by the government, "The Beer Store" is actually owned by the three big breweries in Ontario--Labatt, Molson, Sleeman.
posted by Fabulon7 at 1:37 PM on June 8, 2003
posted by Fabulon7 at 1:37 PM on June 8, 2003
To clear up a small inaccuracy - while the LCBO is owned by the government, "The Beer Store" is actually owned by the three big breweries in Ontario--Labatt, Molson, Sleeman.
The Beer Store is still government sanctioned/whatever, though:
"Today's Beer Store was created in 1927 by a group of brewers working with the Government of Ontario to create a responsible system for beer distribution in the province."
"...The Beer Store management maintains a close working relationship with the Government of Ontario through,the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario (AGCO), and the Ministry of Consumer and Business Services. Through these agencies, the Ontario Government oversees issues such as minimum age for purchase, hours of sale, selling price, labelling and product integrity, and approval of store locations."
/me crosses fingers and awaits The Weed Store. I think if Molson started selling pot, pretty much everyone in Canada would support it, especially if they sponsored Hockey Night in Canada.
posted by krunk at 3:21 PM on June 8, 2003
The Beer Store is still government sanctioned/whatever, though:
"Today's Beer Store was created in 1927 by a group of brewers working with the Government of Ontario to create a responsible system for beer distribution in the province."
"...The Beer Store management maintains a close working relationship with the Government of Ontario through,the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario (AGCO), and the Ministry of Consumer and Business Services. Through these agencies, the Ontario Government oversees issues such as minimum age for purchase, hours of sale, selling price, labelling and product integrity, and approval of store locations."
/me crosses fingers and awaits The Weed Store. I think if Molson started selling pot, pretty much everyone in Canada would support it, especially if they sponsored Hockey Night in Canada.
posted by krunk at 3:21 PM on June 8, 2003
God, Krunk, the mere words "Molson selling pot" have so much scope. Imagine the advertising.
Commerical involving stoned out guy, drawling.... "I..........AM..........Canadian....."
posted by orange swan at 4:07 PM on June 8, 2003
Commerical involving stoned out guy, drawling.... "I..........AM..........Canadian....."
posted by orange swan at 4:07 PM on June 8, 2003
I think if Molson started selling pot, pretty much everyone in Canada would support it
But wouldn't the quality go way down?
*ducks*
posted by Vidiot at 5:43 PM on June 8, 2003
But wouldn't the quality go way down?
*ducks*
posted by Vidiot at 5:43 PM on June 8, 2003
But wouldn't the quality go way down?
Then we would smoke pot from our local microgrowery, like we drink beer from our microbreweries. Sweet.
posted by stonerose at 6:17 PM on June 8, 2003
Then we would smoke pot from our local microgrowery, like we drink beer from our microbreweries. Sweet.
posted by stonerose at 6:17 PM on June 8, 2003
Eh, I live in Ontario too. The LCBO's aren't really all that great in terms of selection or price, but they've got the benefits of standardisation - prices are the same everywhere, and selection doesn't vary too much (outside of the wines available, that is). Frankly, I'd rather the government didn't get involved in pot just because they _would_ regulate it and drive up the price and make it a hard market to enter. I'd rather poor youths looking for quick cash took up drug dealing than B&E.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 6:32 AM on June 9, 2003
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 6:32 AM on June 9, 2003
Which means *both* that hemp can overnight become a multi-billion dollar industry, and could *destroy* an existing multi-billion dollar industry.
Not exactly, with the bill to decriminalize possession of small amounts is tacked on far stiffer penalties for growing, distributing and smuggling. So this means that the Canadian "multi-billion dollar" pot industry ain't going to happen.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:24 AM on June 9, 2003
Not exactly, with the bill to decriminalize possession of small amounts is tacked on far stiffer penalties for growing, distributing and smuggling. So this means that the Canadian "multi-billion dollar" pot industry ain't going to happen.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:24 AM on June 9, 2003
Pollomacho: I said "hemp", not "pot." The US links the two, and, I suspect, more out of protectionism to its wood paper and pulp industry then of any other reason. Canada does not. And the US has been screaming in tandem, more overtly about "pot", but still threatening trade wars over "hemp."
Ironically, if there *was* large scale hemp production, it would probably lower the quality of "pot" marijuana, with so much more (hyper allergenic, I might add) pollen in the air, it would be that much harder to keep female plants from being fertilized.
The biggest benefactors to legalized hemp would of course be the Pacific northwest, but also the south, where vast amounts of privately owned very high grade hardwood forests are being destroyed to make chip, for god's sake! Wood that could make very expensive fine furniture, being wasted in wood chipping plants.
posted by kablam at 8:37 AM on June 9, 2003
Ironically, if there *was* large scale hemp production, it would probably lower the quality of "pot" marijuana, with so much more (hyper allergenic, I might add) pollen in the air, it would be that much harder to keep female plants from being fertilized.
The biggest benefactors to legalized hemp would of course be the Pacific northwest, but also the south, where vast amounts of privately owned very high grade hardwood forests are being destroyed to make chip, for god's sake! Wood that could make very expensive fine furniture, being wasted in wood chipping plants.
posted by kablam at 8:37 AM on June 9, 2003
Decriminalization of pot is a mistake. It gives the cops a reason to deal with pot-smokers instead of just ignoring them. It becomes an attractive revenue stream for them, which means that instead of doing something useful, they'll be chasing after yet another victimless "crime".
posted by five fresh fish at 9:02 AM on June 9, 2003
posted by five fresh fish at 9:02 AM on June 9, 2003
Unfortunately for Canada, despite the legality of hemp production, nature has the last laugh. Hemp takes 15 weeks (105 days) from seed to harvest, a luxury of time that most of Canada doesn't possess. With similar growing times, corn production in Canada was around 270 million bushels in Y2K compare that to the single state of Iowa in the US which put out 1.64 Billion bushels in the same growing season. Trees however can survive even through most of what the great white north can throw out. I'm afraid this "multi-billion dollar" industry is a bit of a pipe dream, especially when Western wheat farmers can get in two crops a year or can hope there's not a late or early frost for their one hemp harvest. Pot however, carries much greater cash value, but its cultivation would be strictly controlled under the latest bill before the Canadian legislators.
As for hardwood forests of the south being chipped for pulp, are you referring to the south of Canada, because the South of the US plants pine (not a hardwood) on leeched, depleted former cotton land that would otherwise go fallow or become pasture land, whereas the remnants of hardwood forests in the mountain regions go to mostly furniture and construction uses. Hemp would, once again due to natural constraints, not work in the southern US, due to the leeched soil. Trees ARE the saving grace crop of the south. As they say in the deep south paper industry, "save a tree, raise a cow" meaning if a farmer can't make a profit from cutting the trees for pulp, he'll cut them and raise cattle anyway.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:40 AM on June 9, 2003
As for hardwood forests of the south being chipped for pulp, are you referring to the south of Canada, because the South of the US plants pine (not a hardwood) on leeched, depleted former cotton land that would otherwise go fallow or become pasture land, whereas the remnants of hardwood forests in the mountain regions go to mostly furniture and construction uses. Hemp would, once again due to natural constraints, not work in the southern US, due to the leeched soil. Trees ARE the saving grace crop of the south. As they say in the deep south paper industry, "save a tree, raise a cow" meaning if a farmer can't make a profit from cutting the trees for pulp, he'll cut them and raise cattle anyway.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:40 AM on June 9, 2003
Not all of the US south is Mississippi Delta. The forests there are very diverse *and* privately held, and *are* being wasted at a terrible rate.
And, it doesn't matter if Canada can only produce a fraction of the hemp the US *could* produce. A fraction is still worth a fortune, and would directly compete with the US pulp industry.
All of this assumes that what is happening right now, that Cananda is hemp friendly and the US remains illegal for hemp, continues. The US pulp industry will take a hit, unless, despite NAFTA, the US puts up trade barriers, again, AT HEMP. Against marijuana may be an excuse, but we're talking real money, here.
posted by kablam at 2:06 PM on June 9, 2003
And, it doesn't matter if Canada can only produce a fraction of the hemp the US *could* produce. A fraction is still worth a fortune, and would directly compete with the US pulp industry.
All of this assumes that what is happening right now, that Cananda is hemp friendly and the US remains illegal for hemp, continues. The US pulp industry will take a hit, unless, despite NAFTA, the US puts up trade barriers, again, AT HEMP. Against marijuana may be an excuse, but we're talking real money, here.
posted by kablam at 2:06 PM on June 9, 2003
Not all of the US south is Mississippi Delta.
What? But I was under the impression... duh. Having lived in the entire south, from West Texas to the Delta, to the Smokies to the Chesapeake my whole life and worked in agriculture in some capacity most of that time, I can attest that, yes, the south is more than just the Delta, and furthermore that they actually do harvest hardwoods in some parts. Incidentally cotton, the king of the South for most of US history was cultivated in all states from Texas to Virginia and has left its mark on the depleted soil in all those areas, not just the Mississippi Delta. Try checking out the Black Belt of Alabama or the Wire Grass country, you'll see the tell tale signs of cotton leeched soils. Besides this I do not dispute that trees are being depleted from the South at an alarming rate, however hemp could not be grown on the lands that softwood (pulpwood) trees are presently farmed on due to soil leeching.
As for Canadian farmers switching suddenly to hemp because they can is not going to happen. Presently farmers can get 2 wheat frost resistant yields a spring cut of winter wheat and a fall harvest, which carries greater value than one hemp crop that furthermore carries a risk of frost during its long growth period. Hemp would be a good rotation crop though, to make a few bucks rather than letting a field lay fallow for a season.
posted by Pollomacho at 2:42 PM on June 9, 2003
What? But I was under the impression... duh. Having lived in the entire south, from West Texas to the Delta, to the Smokies to the Chesapeake my whole life and worked in agriculture in some capacity most of that time, I can attest that, yes, the south is more than just the Delta, and furthermore that they actually do harvest hardwoods in some parts. Incidentally cotton, the king of the South for most of US history was cultivated in all states from Texas to Virginia and has left its mark on the depleted soil in all those areas, not just the Mississippi Delta. Try checking out the Black Belt of Alabama or the Wire Grass country, you'll see the tell tale signs of cotton leeched soils. Besides this I do not dispute that trees are being depleted from the South at an alarming rate, however hemp could not be grown on the lands that softwood (pulpwood) trees are presently farmed on due to soil leeching.
As for Canadian farmers switching suddenly to hemp because they can is not going to happen. Presently farmers can get 2 wheat frost resistant yields a spring cut of winter wheat and a fall harvest, which carries greater value than one hemp crop that furthermore carries a risk of frost during its long growth period. Hemp would be a good rotation crop though, to make a few bucks rather than letting a field lay fallow for a season.
posted by Pollomacho at 2:42 PM on June 9, 2003
Hemp takes 15 weeks (105 days) from seed to harvest, a luxury of time that most of Canada doesn't possess.
Uh-huh. We all live in igloos up here.
"Based on the prices and yields projected in this paper, I estimate that growing for seed and fibre will generate long term combined revenues of $825-920/ha. Since the total expected costs of growing hemp for seed are $713-822/ha, even in a ‘worse case’ scenario, a minimum return of $98.00 is expected. As illustrated in the table below, this is slightly better than the expected return from winter wheat, and in the range of soybeans, when using average prices from 1995-1996."
posted by five fresh fish at 6:18 PM on June 9, 2003
Uh-huh. We all live in igloos up here.
"Based on the prices and yields projected in this paper, I estimate that growing for seed and fibre will generate long term combined revenues of $825-920/ha. Since the total expected costs of growing hemp for seed are $713-822/ha, even in a ‘worse case’ scenario, a minimum return of $98.00 is expected. As illustrated in the table below, this is slightly better than the expected return from winter wheat, and in the range of soybeans, when using average prices from 1995-1996."
posted by five fresh fish at 6:18 PM on June 9, 2003
Canada has got a number of areas that easily have fifteen or more weeks of warm weather - the "Golden Horsehoe" of Southern Ontario, Annapolis Valley in Nova Scotia and Okanagan Valley in British Columbia. If we can grow oranges and grapes, hemp's nothing.
Hell, marijuana can be (and is) grown seven months of the year outdoors here in Southern Ontario, so I can't see why commercial hemp wouldn't have just as long to develop.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 3:38 AM on June 10, 2003
Hell, marijuana can be (and is) grown seven months of the year outdoors here in Southern Ontario, so I can't see why commercial hemp wouldn't have just as long to develop.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 3:38 AM on June 10, 2003
As illustrated in the table below, this is slightly better than the expected return from winter wheat, and in the range of soybeans, when using average prices from 1995-1996."
Great, is is better return than winter wheat AND the fall harvest? As for being comparable to soy, sounds just like I said, a good rotation crop.
Canada has got a number of areas that easily have fifteen or more weeks of warm weather
Great, there are also palm trees on the field where the Battle of Hastings took place in Britain, but that doesn't make the UK the Riviera! When one state in the US grows more than 6 times the entire yield of a 100+ day growing season crop (as above Canada Corn - 270 mil. bu./yr. vs. Iowa Corn 1.64 bil. bu./yr.) the growing season comes into question.
No doubt hemp can and may make a great agricultural product for Canada, but to think that it is going to out reach the US wood pulp industry or even the Canadian wood pulp industry is a bit of a stretch of the imagination.
posted by Pollomacho at 8:28 AM on June 10, 2003
Great, is is better return than winter wheat AND the fall harvest? As for being comparable to soy, sounds just like I said, a good rotation crop.
Canada has got a number of areas that easily have fifteen or more weeks of warm weather
Great, there are also palm trees on the field where the Battle of Hastings took place in Britain, but that doesn't make the UK the Riviera! When one state in the US grows more than 6 times the entire yield of a 100+ day growing season crop (as above Canada Corn - 270 mil. bu./yr. vs. Iowa Corn 1.64 bil. bu./yr.) the growing season comes into question.
No doubt hemp can and may make a great agricultural product for Canada, but to think that it is going to out reach the US wood pulp industry or even the Canadian wood pulp industry is a bit of a stretch of the imagination.
posted by Pollomacho at 8:28 AM on June 10, 2003
You might also note on the linked chart above that corn still has a larger return on investment than hemp and does not require the establishment of a new processing infrastructure or export to the US. Canadian corn can feed Canadian cattle or people without paying the US a dime. Hemp would require either American processors or machinery, either way, the US gets paid, and that info comes from a pro-hemp site! Besides, think of the hay fever seasons with fields of hemp around!
posted by Pollomacho at 8:37 AM on June 10, 2003
posted by Pollomacho at 8:37 AM on June 10, 2003
Pollomacho: as an aside, I mentioned earlier about hemp pollen being "hyper-allergenic." It is one of those allergens from heck for many people. Ironically, a health-food chain in Tucson did a free pollen count for the local newspaper, and for months, cannabis came out at #1, until the city asked that they *omit* *that* pollen from the count, as it was making Tucson appear to be pot heaven.
Otherwise, I look forward to the day when I can buy a book whose pages don't yellow in 10 years.
posted by kablam at 11:51 AM on June 10, 2003
Otherwise, I look forward to the day when I can buy a book whose pages don't yellow in 10 years.
posted by kablam at 11:51 AM on June 10, 2003
Meanwhile, in the U.S.:
"An Alachua County college student in jail on marijuana charges was raped over the weekend by his cell mate, a man already being held on sexual battery charges, authorities said Monday."
posted by homunculus at 3:40 PM on June 10, 2003
"An Alachua County college student in jail on marijuana charges was raped over the weekend by his cell mate, a man already being held on sexual battery charges, authorities said Monday."
posted by homunculus at 3:40 PM on June 10, 2003
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