Kraft announces plans to stop marketing in schools and to make products healthier
July 2, 2003 9:57 AM   Subscribe

Kraft announces plans to stop marketing in schools and to make products healthier Sure, maybe they're only doing it because they're being sued, but it's nice to see a company taking responsible steps without being forced to. Now if only all other junk food makers would do the same, or schools stopped allowing the junk foods in.
posted by callmejay (85 comments total)
 
Maybe we can agree that aggressively selling junk food to young children is bad and do our best not to turn this into a fat thread.
posted by callmejay at 9:58 AM on July 2, 2003


It actually sounds like an excuse to reduce portion size and still charge the same price. Call me skeptical.
posted by frykitty at 10:06 AM on July 2, 2003


Actually, from what I was reading yesterday, they're not making things healthier, they're just reducing serving size on single serving packages so that the numbers look better.
posted by piper28 at 10:08 AM on July 2, 2003


Maybe we can agree that aggressively selling junk food to young children is bad...

No, we can't. Because one, who the hell do you think likes to eat junk food, for god's sake? and two, that would be a really boring thread. Fat don't enter in to it.

But I guess this is a sad victory for the health nazis and pleasure police . God almighty, you fucking people, eat all the oat bran you want, drink lawn-clipping smoothies till you fucking puke. Just let the rest of us have our fun. These stupid guidelines are gonna ruin the taste of some perfectly good eats. And no matter how healthy you eat, you are going to die anyway. GET OVER IT!!

It's not a grand conspiracy to poison our children for pete's sake. People like the taste of fatty, sugary food. Deal with it. And the lawyer who brought the suit sounds like a constipated twit who wasn't hit enough as a child.
posted by jonmc at 10:11 AM on July 2, 2003


that would be a really boring thread.

And I take it the comments that follow are simply to assure that it isn't?
posted by soyjoy at 10:16 AM on July 2, 2003


Reducing portion size and keeping same price is an old game with the major companies in the food industry. And they were doing that before law suits about getting overweight...previously, they would simply raise prices and keep same portions. Then they kept prices and cut portions. Next will be to raise prices and reduce portions...is there any place to go after that?
posted by Postroad at 10:17 AM on July 2, 2003


...or parents pay more attention to what their children eat? Why is it always the company's fault? Parents should help guide their children towards better nutrition, with junk food being the exception, not the rule. However, I don't see anyone from Kraft holding a gun to anyone's head or making people eat it. Just because schools are lazy by not offering sound nutritional lunches doesn't mean that the food itself is a horrendous evil.

Now I'm flashing back to beef and gravy on mashed potatoes...yummmmmm...
posted by byort at 10:26 AM on July 2, 2003


No, soyjoy, they are actually my feelings on the subject. I quite frnakly am stunned that anybody with an IQ higher than a houseplant is taking this idiocy seriously.
posted by jonmc at 10:27 AM on July 2, 2003


When I was a kid my parents only allowed me to eat junk food. They were considered treats and we had them rarely. I didn't get allowance to I couldn't buy the stuff myself. A friend of mine wasn't even allowed soda.

I don't know if any parents have thought of trying that, but it might be a better idea then tying up courts with lawsuits.
posted by Akuinnen at 10:29 AM on July 2, 2003


My girlfriend and I have long discussed how large of an impact major corporations would have if they invested their money in creating healthier and even meat-eater-friendly vegetarian foods rather than stuff like the microwaveable breakfast.

Will lawsuits shake major companies into creating better foods? Maybe. If they don't change, then someone else will emerge with better foods, and bad publicity like the Oreo lawsuit will make the public more interested in these alternatives.
posted by VulcanMike at 10:33 AM on July 2, 2003


I see nothing wrong in reducing portion sizes of snacks. Come on, we all know that the US - and the rest of the westernized world isn't far behind - is becoming increasingly overweight, and this is partially due to lack of portion control. This is one imperfect way of making portion control easier for kids and the adults who feed them. If Kraft charges the same amount for smaller portions and gets away with it, you can't blame anyone but the consumer for allowing it. I don't believe Kraft has altruistic motives more than the rest of you, but that doesn't make the action wrong.

jonmc - the point of eating healthy is not to avoid death, but to have a better life. I like sugar and fat very much, but overeating either doesn't do a body any favors in the long run. Personally I wouldn't touch any of Kraft/Miller/Philip Morris's products anyway, but that's me.
posted by widdershins at 10:36 AM on July 2, 2003


Now that they will stop marketing in schools, what new menace to the children's well-being will take it's place?
posted by mnology at 10:38 AM on July 2, 2003


Overindulgence in all forms is pretty repulsive. For individuals to turn fat into the latest "if it feels good do it" is pretty offensive too. The oral fixated orgy today is no different from any other form of overindulgence of the past only much more widespread. Would smoking 3 cigarettes a day have caused as much horror and death, no, but 2 packs a day certainly has. Would HIV have spread as quickly without routinely promiscuous behavior in some communities? No.

So what do we have now? It's a festival of eating that afflicts the entire nation. How is it different? It's not. We defend it because unhealthy behavior is something that people won't take responsibility for. But then as somebody who gets up and works out 4 days a week and avoids eating massive quantities, I'm probably not qualified to speak on this. Somebody will come out spouting how they're huge but healthy as if it's not different than drinking a fifth of Jim Beam a day and having a functioning liver. Sure healthy for now. Smoke, drink, eat, sleep around, irresponsible behavior is self destructive no matter how you slice it. Whether Altria is pushing tobacco or Velveeta doesn't matter.
posted by shagoth at 10:44 AM on July 2, 2003


Another thought, a little off topic -- the person who invents vegetarian burgers and vegetarian chicken that are indistinguishable from regular meats will be a bizillionaire. There's enough technology and research available that corporations should be able to put their time into making things we love to eat healthier rather than creating new consumer-appealing unhealthy foods.

Unlike cigarette manufacturers, the food industry will experience major, immediate and direct gains from improving their foods. Make me a Dorito that's as healthy as a kernel of corn, and I'm sold... and many others would be sold too. Imagine those veggie chickens and veggie burgers making their way to fast food restaurants -- suddenly, the chain of clogged arteries becomes the "fun" health food alternative. (Vegetarian meats are also cheaper than farming cows and chickens, and I'd bet that healthier ingredients would ultimately result in a greater ROI).
posted by VulcanMike at 10:44 AM on July 2, 2003


jonmc - the point of eating healthy is not to avoid death, but to have a better life. I like sugar and fat very much, but overeating either doesn't do a body any favors in the long run. Personally I wouldn't touch any of Kraft/Miller/Philip Morris's products anyway, but that's me.

And that's your prerogative. But there shoving it down everyone's throats here.

I'm gonna go find this lawyers house and cover it in melted Velveeta. Who's with me??
posted by jonmc at 10:45 AM on July 2, 2003


"In no longer marketing to schools, Kraft will eliminate its promotions, abandon its free posters and colorful book covers and end contests, such as Oscar Mayer's popular School House Jam in which schools compete for up to $15,000 by singing an interpretation of Oscar Mayer jingles."

Good work, folks. It's not like schools needed the extra money or anything.

Disclosure: yeah, I work for a marketing/advertising agency, and our biggest client - a grocery chain - does something along this line. It has pumped about $250,000 a year into regional schools each of the past few years. For some of the schools, it's been the only thing keeping their music department alive. Letting marketers run rampant in schools is bad, but surely there's an acceptable middle ground.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 10:46 AM on July 2, 2003


I must be missing a step. What's with the "shoving it down everyone's throat" verbiage? I thought the remarkable point of the post was Kraft is doing this voluntarily, not that anyone is establishing any new regulations that are forcing anyone to do anything. I read the reference to the lawsuit (which seems frivolous) as just backdrop to this story.
posted by delapohl at 10:56 AM on July 2, 2003


VulcanMike: Do you seriously think the general public is just waiting for a healthy Oreo? Really?

Even if it looked, smelled, felt, and tasted indistinguishable from a regular Oreo, I bet such a product would bomb, even if it was the exact same price. Why?

'cause it's a freakin' Oreo. People eating them aren't worried about their nutritional value, and people worried about nutritional value have already found alternatives. You need to give people a compelling reason to switch besides the health choice, because that decision has already been made.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 10:58 AM on July 2, 2003


When I was a kid my parents only allowed me to eat junk food. They were considered treats and we had them rarely. I didn't get allowance to I couldn't buy the stuff myself. A friend of mine wasn't even allowed soda.

Ditto here. I very, very rarely was allowed to eat junk food. I wasn't allowed soda, ever. To this day, I still can't drink it. Even on traditional candy-friendly holidays, like Easter and Halloween, I got screwed. My parents used to give me grapes wrapped in tinfoil instead of those wrapped, chocolate mini-easter eggs. My halloween candy always got shanghai'ed when I got back from trick-or-treating, never to be seen again.

The upside is I can't eat overly-processed foods now. Anything with that neon orange cheese, or enough salt to kill (coincidentally, just about everything Kraft sells) just gives me a horrible stomach ache, just from looking at it.

JohnMc: Go ahead, eat whatever you want. There are no health police to stop you. You're an adult. You can make stupid decisions, and no one can stop you. But children are more susceptible to sleazy advertising than adults. Considering that obesity is slowly moving up the list of top killers, and that America's kids are, collectively, the fattest they've ever been, we should take some steps to fix the problem - Like not feeding so much shit to our kids.

Don't make it into some sort of silly civil liberties argument, because it's not. You can still eat all the crap you want.

GhostintheMachine: Good work, folks. It's not like schools needed the extra money or anything.

Maybe if some of our tax money went to the schools, instead of to the military, schools wouldn't have to whore themselves, and their students, out to corporate scum just to make ends meet.
posted by SweetJesus at 11:03 AM on July 2, 2003


USA Today ran a big article on this yesterday (which I blogged on my site). It's not just portion sizes that are in play. For instance Frito-Lay is pledging to remove all trans fatty acids from all of they're products by the end of next month.
posted by NortonDC at 11:04 AM on July 2, 2003


Yes, you can say that it's up to parents to decide what their children eat. And that's correct so far as it goes.

But I don't see why making schools into a healthy food zone interferes with personal choice. Parents can still feed their children whatever they want at home or send them to school with pizza, chips and chocolate bars for lunch if they wish. It's kind of like sex ed - we don't leave that all up to the parents. We teach children the essentials regardless of what they may have learned at home.

Jonmc, you seem quite irate today. Who exactly has been shoving anything down your throat?

Ghostinthemachine - I agree. If I want to eat healthy I don't eat Freetos, period. Healthier junk food is such a bandaid solution. Although years ago I did have a roommate (23, 5'2", 200 lbs) who proudly announced that she had bought healthier 25% less fat Oreos. Then she proceeded to eat most of the bag at one sitting. Different strokes for different market shares, I suppose.
posted by orange swan at 11:05 AM on July 2, 2003


Sigh. I hate when I do that.
posted by NortonDC at 11:06 AM on July 2, 2003


Ghost, I disagree. I'm waiting for a healthy Oreo. Really! And if it looks, smells, feels, and tastes indistinguishable, great. And costs the same? Sign me up!

People worried about nutritional value, like me, will BUY products that give us healthy versions of the "unhealthy" ones we darn well still crave.

Vanilla soy milk on grape nuts with fresh berries is goooood. But it's not an Oreo, and it wouldn't keep me from buying out the store if and when the miracle version comes out.

PS to SweetJesus: me too on the soda. Wasn't allowed in the house when I was growing up, and so I never got a taste for it. Can't stand the stuff.
posted by clever sheep at 11:10 AM on July 2, 2003


But there [sic] shoving it down everyone's throats here.

Best line in a thread about reducing junk-food consumption.
posted by stefanie at 11:10 AM on July 2, 2003


Grapes wrapped in tinfoil ?

That's just cruel.
posted by gottabefunky at 11:11 AM on July 2, 2003


Hey shagoth if you are so overwrought and angry at working out 4 days a week and eating right, maybe you should chill out, have a beer and sit on the couch for a while.

Or, you could do the new thing -- go get elected to some office and make a law that everyone has to be like you.

Either way.

Oh yeah, and your other comparisons are a stretch. For the smoking one, I think there was some study a few years back that said it didn't really matter if you only smoked a few cigs a day, the cancer rates were almost the same.
posted by zaack at 11:11 AM on July 2, 2003


I quite frnakly [sic] am stunned that anybody with an IQ higher than a houseplant is taking this idiocy seriously.

I take the politics of food very seriously, obviously, but that's another discussion, no? There are no federal regulations being discussed here; no one is going to steal your precious Oreos.

Myself, I'd rather spend a few hours in the kitchen, working with real food, cooking from the root, and enjoying not only the taste but the nutrition of my meal.

But, sure, what the hell? Let the overweight children of the USA overeat all the crap they want and pump their stomachs full of sugary shit-water. Thin out the population a little.

/sarcasm
posted by tr33hggr at 11:14 AM on July 2, 2003


GITM: You need to give people a compelling reason to switch besides the health choice, because that decision has already been made.

Part of what I was saying was that we need not wait for the public at large to pick up and move to another, healthier snack food. Consumer activists, such as the Oreo lawsuit group, will continue to bring these subjects to the public's attention, and it will become a matter of public relations.
posted by VulcanMike at 11:17 AM on July 2, 2003


GhostintheMachine, I disagree. Once I started researching trans fats, and realized how many products include a product which the FDA has declared "unsafe in any amount"...my purchasing decisions were drastically changed.

There is only one brand of cookies that I've found that don't contain any trans fats, and if I don't make my own cookies, and I want a cookie, then I buy that brand, and only that brand.

Companies have been hiding the amount of trans fats in foods because until today, they weren't required to put it on the label...you had to know which ingredients to look for.

That being said, there are almost never processed foods in the house anyway. I agree that people should be able to eat anything they want...but corporations should be forced to disclose exactly what it is that they're selling. And people like me will make purchasing decisions based on that disclosure. Marketing this crap to kids is just evil.

But I, in my non-scientific ways, am willing to bet that the obesity epidemic can be directly tied to trans fats being used as fillers in 90% of the products on the market, processed food replacing good ol' veggies from the backyard garden, and eating critters being pumped full of chemicals.
posted by dejah420 at 11:17 AM on July 2, 2003


Grapes wrapped in tinfoil ?

That's just cruel.


I'm not even being dramatic. One of my non-blood uncle's always makes a point to bring this up at family events, just to raise my mom's bloodpressure. I think she's embarrassed about it, a little. My ex also made a point of telling strangers at parties, who would then just laugh at me...

My parents used to hide them around our living room, on top of the tv, and underneath the lampshades, and then I'd have to hunt them down.
posted by SweetJesus at 11:19 AM on July 2, 2003


What dejah420 said.

but corporations should be forced to disclose exactly what it is that they're selling.

*dreams of a day when he will never again see the words "natural and artificial flavoring" on an ingredient list.*
posted by tr33hggr at 11:24 AM on July 2, 2003


Myself, I'd rather spend a few hours in the kitchen, working with real food, cooking from the root, and enjoying not only the taste but the nutrition of my meal.

Dude, my diet consists of 1 or 2 frozen dinners at night, A pushcart cheesteak and a beef sausage for lunch, a bag of chips and a candy bar for breakfast. 3 or 4 cups of coffee in the morning and 6 to 8 beers at night to wash it all down. Bags of salted nuts and candy all day long.

And you know what, I'll prolly be sittin' on mycouch enjoying a bratwurst and a Budweiser when they're lowering your organically fed ass into the ground.

You know why? Cause what isn't decided by genetics is decided by attitude. Anything else is denial.
posted by jonmc at 11:26 AM on July 2, 2003


*gives SweetJesus a hug & a Hershey's kiss*
posted by widdershins at 11:26 AM on July 2, 2003


SweetJesus, the idea wasn't bad - but she could have been a little more creative. If I were planning a child's healthy Easter hunt, I might use packages of nuts and raisins and small non-food items like miniature cars or stickers and fancy pencils.

No need for a healthy lifestyle to be dreary.

You know why? Cause what isn't decided by genetics is decided by attitude. Anything else is denial.

Bullshit, Jonmc. Repeat after me: complex interplay of various factors.
posted by orange swan at 11:28 AM on July 2, 2003


Wow, jonmc, I think you just explained your oft-mentioned descent into bitterness.
posted by widdershins at 11:29 AM on July 2, 2003


Ouch, that sounded very snarky. Didn't mean to offend.
posted by widdershins at 11:32 AM on July 2, 2003


And guess what, I still weigh only 180 pounds and at my last checkup my cholestrol and blood pressure were both better than normal.

Enjoy your soy lattes and carob cookies, kids.

**grabs bag of cheez-its, cracks schaefer**
posted by jonmc at 11:32 AM on July 2, 2003


I second the bullshit, but really don't care if you live longer than me jonmc. I'll wager that I'll have led a fuller life.

And I love a good night of beer chugging, don't get me wrong. And hell yes I eat frozen food.

But have a good time with your brat and Bud. And enjoy that colon cancer too, ok?
posted by tr33hggr at 11:33 AM on July 2, 2003


jonmc, I think you're missing the point. It's not longevity that counts--any of us could buy the farm at any given time due to factors totally unrelated to our nutrition--but quality of life.

You obviously think that your eating habits enhance your quality of life. Well, boo-ya--nobody here is advocating taking the Doritos out of your hand.

I'm on the other extreme end of the spectrum--I think that my general health seriously enhances my quality of life. When and if I eat unhealthy crap, I can feel the effects in hours or days. We're talking mood, concentration, physical performance in work, sports, and sex.

You go your way, and I'll go mine. But in the meantime, why so much attitude on your part about the issue? It's coming off kinda crotchety, and you're usually so damn fun.
posted by clever sheep at 11:33 AM on July 2, 2003


*Drools*

soy latte.....
posted by clever sheep at 11:35 AM on July 2, 2003


And jonmc still hasn't explained who shoved what down his throat. It's the MeFi whodunnit (whoshovit?) of the day.
posted by orange swan at 11:38 AM on July 2, 2003


SweetJesus, the idea wasn't bad - but she could have been a little more creative. If I were planning a child's healthy Easter hunt, I might use packages of nuts and raisins and small non-food items like miniature cars or stickers and fancy pencils.

No it wasn't a bad idea, and I'm sure that I didn't know what I was missing at the time. My entire youth was a bait and switch, but I better not get into that.

Dude, my diet consists of 1 or 2 frozen dinners at night, A pushcart cheesteak and a beef sausage for lunch, a bag of chips and a candy bar for breakfast. 3 or 4 cups of coffee in the morning and 6 to 8 beers at night to wash it all down. Bags of salted nuts and candy all day long.

Dude, you're, like, some sort of Nietzschan superman. I mean, like, hardcore, and shit. But if you really want to take it to the next level, I'd suggest some sort of Pepsi-IV system. That'd be killer, dude.
posted by SweetJesus at 11:41 AM on July 2, 2003


jonmc, I just checked out your blog and every entry mentioned some form of bratwurst and/or beer. I guess we know you weren't exaggerating for effect...

*jumping off the jonmc pile-up now*
posted by widdershins at 11:48 AM on July 2, 2003


Siegel said children used to be turned off by nutritional claims because they thought the foods wouldn't taste good. But recent kids' focus groups indicate that's no longer the case, he said.

Kids' focus groups.

Oh just kill yourself now you fucking evil scumbags.
posted by mathis23 at 11:48 AM on July 2, 2003


But in the meantime, why so much attitude on your part about the issue? It's coming off kinda crotchety

Because health food (and the zealots I've had to deal with for embracing a bacon cheesburger lifestyle), are right up there with techno music, The Cure( actually about 80% of post 1980 and 99% of post 2000 music could be included), PT Cruisers, andrea dworkin, tom hanks, razor scooters, and breast implants among things that get up my ass.

and you're usually so damn fun.

That's where the seven or eight beers come in.

On preview. Startin lawsuits to ban oreo's is pretty damned close to shoving. That the kinda shit that started it with smoking, and we've reached the point in this country where you cant smoke in a fucking bar.

And I loathe Pepsi and Coke. I'm a Cherry lime rickey guy.
posted by jonmc at 11:51 AM on July 2, 2003


jonmc:

And guess what, I still weigh only 180 pounds and at my last checkup my cholestrol and blood pressure were both better than normal.

And let's see, you're 32 and a half--keep up that diet for a couple years and you'll be the prime candidate for angioplasties and angina from walking up stairs! Hoo-ray!

These stupid guidelines are gonna ruin the taste of some perfectly good eats.

Junk food is so packed with trans fats, sugars, and oils that I doubt you'll be able to taste the difference, anyway. And don't worry, there will still be Hungry Man Breakfasts for you.

It's not a grand conspiracy to poison our children for pete's sake.

No, but it's a big objective to get them to eat lots of snacks. It's a multi-billion--if not trillion--dollar industry. Read Fast Food Nation. I dare you.

we've reached the point in this country where you cant smoke in a fucking bar

I wasn't aware bars were specifically made for smoking. Now I see why everyone's so upset.
posted by gramcracker at 11:56 AM on July 2, 2003


SweetJesus: Up here in Canada, military spending is almost oxymoronic. And yet our schools still have a funding problem. Sure, you Americans could spend less on your military. But don't fool yourself that a reduction in military spending would equal an increase in education or health spending. I can't explain it, either.

dejah420: Are you saying you ate Oreos until you found out there were trans fats in them? Don't tell me you thought they were good for you?
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:01 PM on July 2, 2003


SweetJesus: Up here in Canada, military spending is almost oxymoronic. And yet our schools still have a funding problem. Sure, you Americans could spend less on your military. But don't fool yourself that a reduction in military spending would equal an increase in education or health spending. I can't explain it, either.

I'm not fooling myself one bit. The US spends more of it's budget on the military than just about every social service combined (See Fast Food Nation for the exact figure). If we took money out of the military, and spent it on education, the schools would improve.
posted by SweetJesus at 12:08 PM on July 2, 2003


jonmc, compartmentalizing and contrasting food according to "health food" and "bacon cheeseburger" categories is seriously blinkered. Lots of healthy food is downright indulgent, and easy to prepare to boot, so what's with the lack of imagination? I live for tuna sushi, fresh rainier cherries, portobello-pepper-tomato-vidalia kebabs, green tea, and strawberry-rhubarb jam on dark bread.

Besides which, it's not an either-or, hard-line situation. Eat healthy most of the time, and you can revel even more in the occasional splurge. I bet I enjoy my one bacon cheeseburger a year by an order of magnitude more than someone who puts one down every week. Chalk it up to novelty, if nothing else.
posted by clever sheep at 12:12 PM on July 2, 2003


SJ and Ghost: One piechart of US military spending, the National Priorities Database PDF of tax dollars, and, for a real-life, practical, imagineable example, the NP Tradeoff database query.
posted by gramcracker at 12:18 PM on July 2, 2003


quote:"techno music, The Cure, PT Cruisers, andrea dworkin, tom hanks, razor scooters, and breast implants among things that get up my ass"/quote

jonmc, sounds like you need a good colon cleansing.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:33 PM on July 2, 2003


I have a feeling that this means that my choices as a consumer are going to be determined by fat people who have no personal responsibility.

Is that right?
posted by eas98 at 12:39 PM on July 2, 2003


eas98: No.

Hope that helps.
posted by clever sheep at 12:41 PM on July 2, 2003


eas98 - isn't that, or a parallel thereof, often the case? Don't we give up many "freedoms" because there are those among us who cann't exercise them responsibly.

And, our choices as consumers are more or less predetermined anyway, no?
posted by tr33hggr at 12:43 PM on July 2, 2003


Wow, that came off as snarky. Sorry.

I guess what triggered the knee-jerk reaction was the assumption that the primary issue here was that your choices were going to be "determined." Believe me, you'll have access to a mind-boggling number of food choices, both enormously unhealthy and not, for the foreseeable future.

Fat isn't being made illegal, gang. Heck, it's taken years and years even to come up with legislation to label trans fats....
posted by clever sheep at 12:44 PM on July 2, 2003


I'm with Dejah -- those trans fats are nasty. But the consumer shares a great deal of the blame for that. Everybody wants a cheap muffin or cookie, and with baking becoming a lost art, 90% of those items are now being made across the continent and pumped full of all sorts of crap to keep them "fresh and moist" while preventing spoilage. It also enables food distributors and places like Costco and Sam's Club to sell a case of banana nut muffins to retailers at $11 a case. This keeps the prices low.

If you knew how much food you eat is pre-made and pre-baked it would break your heart. And it's not just the Applebee's and TGIFriday's of the world that are microwaving your dinners.
posted by Atom12 at 12:46 PM on July 2, 2003


I have a feeling that this means that my choices as a consumer are going to be determined by fat people who have no personal responsibility.

They already do, but we've abbreviated "people who have no personal responsibility" to CEOs.
posted by stefanie at 12:52 PM on July 2, 2003


meat-eater-friendly vegetarian foods

That's just wrong. Vegetarian foods should not be disguised to make me think it's meat. If I want meat, I want meat, not something pretending to be meat.
posted by piper28 at 1:05 PM on July 2, 2003


Enjoy your soy lattes and carob cookies, kids.

Lots of people have the idea that eating healthy food is some kind of self-denial, a kind of willpower-driven holiness, but I don't know anyone who fits that pattern. It does take some determination to shift your diet, but the truth is that people generally enjoy and prefer whatever they're accustomed to.

I'm accustomed to healthy food made at home from fresh ingredients, so that's what tastes right to me. Food with lots of sugar, salt, and processed ingredients tastes wrong and unpleasant, so I eat very little of it. There's no self-denial: I simply don't WANT to eat cheeseburgers, soda, frozen dinners, and the rest of it.

Last year my wife decided she wanted to switch to soy milk, since it apparently has some complex of nutrients that prevents osteoporosis or something like that. I thought soy milk tasted really odd, but I decided to try it out for a couple weeks to humour her. To my surprise, soy milk stopped tasting funny, and now cow's milk tastes thick and almost bitter. I happily splash soy milk on my cereal now not because I am trying to live virtuously or improve my health but because it's what tastes good.

You do have to decide that you want to change what you're eating, of course, and given the amount of random dogma and cultural judgement attached to different food choices it's not hard to understand why someone might reject the idea.

I live for tuna sushi, fresh rainier cherries, portobello-pepper-tomato-vidalia kebabs, green tea, and strawberry-rhubarb jam on dark bread.

Make me drool, why don't you...

I bet I enjoy my one bacon cheeseburger a year by an order of magnitude more than someone who puts one down every week. Chalk it up to novelty, if nothing else.

That's me and my 6 oz of steak every month or so.
posted by Mars Saxman at 1:10 PM on July 2, 2003


The Chinese eat tons of Pork and Lard. Tons. Are they fat? Can someone point to the proof that eating fat makes you fat? In the Phillipeans they eat tons of coconut oil. The Masai of Africa eat a diet almost entirely of animal fat and milk. They are rail thin. Colonial era Americans ate more fat then we do today, much more. The problem of Americas overweight is NOT fat.
posted by stbalbach at 1:22 PM on July 2, 2003


The "Oreo lawyer" has actually dropped the suit , saying that his goal was not to make money, but make the public aware of the health dangers of trans-fats, and get corporations to change - which Kraft is.

It's not a grand conspiracy to poison our children for pete's sake. People like the taste of fatty, sugary food. Deal with it. And the lawyer who brought the suit sounds like a constipated twit who wasn't hit enough as a child.

jonmc:
The debate isn't really that foods like Oreos should be "healthy" in a low-fat way. It's that if you're going to sell fat-laden foods, at least don't fill them with trans-fats. When big money tobacco prevented the government from warning consumers of ingredient dangers, lawsuits eventually got their attention. I think it's great. The FDA is corrupt, so let the companies risk losing billions when judged by 12 regular people in the jury box.
posted by sixdifferentways at 1:22 PM on July 2, 2003


I live for tuna sushi, fresh rainier cherries, portobello-pepper-tomato-vidalia kebabs, green tea, and strawberry-rhubarb jam on dark bread.

I had some spicy tuna roll sushi on the train home last night so that's good stuff, but the rest of may be OK but it dosen't really stack up as "indulgent," not like say a deep fried candy bar, a pastrami on rye, and yes brats and kraut do.

Bu then again it's simply a matter of taste. Raw vegetables and most fruits are literally so repellent they make me gag.(the pickles you see on the table in th pastrami pic? I tried one for the hell of it. Had to spit it out.) I think taste peccadillos may actually be programmed by nature, perhaps your body needs soy...and mine for some reason needs fried cheese. But the last thing we need is the government or anyone else telling us what we can and cant eat, which is what this leads to.
posted by jonmc at 1:45 PM on July 2, 2003


dejah420: Are you saying you ate Oreos until you found out there were trans fats in them? Don't tell me you thought they were good for you? - GhostintheMachine

No, of course not. Silly boy. But until the Oreo case, trans fats didn't even register on my nutritional watch list. Nobody thinks that Oreos are good for you...but I didn't realize *how* bad they really were.

Speaking of fat laden snacks, have you guys ever read the back of a Fig Newtons package? Realizing that transfat was one of the first 5 ingredients in the list, and that almost all of it's calories were from transfats, made me all weepy.

I'm really not a food nazi. My mother is a cordon bleu trained chef, and I grew up learning to cook with butter and cream and good cuts of meat. I love to cook, I love to bake, and I'm really fond of eating. As a rule, even though I still haven't lost the majority of baby weight, and it's been 6 months since my boy was born, I haven't found the time to go on a diet. However, just by eliminating foods that have transfats in them, and replacing them with foods that don't...for example, no margarine...butter instead...I've dropped 5 pounds in 2 weeks. I realize it's anectdotal, but I'm not sure our bodies know how to process hydrogenated fats.
posted by dejah420 at 1:45 PM on July 2, 2003


stbalbach, I was wondering how long it was gonna take you to show up here...

The Chinese eat tons of Pork and Lard. Tons.

That's no doubt true. But there are millions of tons of Chinese. Gotta keep things in context. Seriously, do you have any source for their consumption relative to ours? Because I think when you say "Chinese," you may be meaning "Chinese restaurants in America."

The problem of Americas overweight is NOT fat.

Yeah, we've been over this several times, and no, fat's not the only issue in weight gain. But fat, at least the kind that comes from animals, is the issue in our intake of deadly dioxins. So that's at least one very good reason to limit it as much as you can.
posted by soyjoy at 2:00 PM on July 2, 2003


"Parents should help guide their children towards better nutrition, with junk food being the exception, not the rule."

There's the world of "should", and then there's reality.
Transfats, eh? Can someone give us a quick rundown on what they are, what they do, and how to avoid them?
hey did you know you can do horizontal rules in MeFi posts? Weird.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:07 PM on July 2, 2003


I say let the kids have their junk food. I tip the scales at a whopping 160 pounds (I'm 6'2") and I've got a pretty crummy diet going for me.

I routinely go to MacDonald's and eat two Double Big Macs with the meals, and an apple pie for dessert. (You know, because all that eating made me work up an appetite.)

Summer is when I consume 48oz. steaks for dinner, with a mountain of french fries. (And it's always medium rare, because nothing makes finishing a meal feel more like a victory than seeing a bloody, empty plate.)

The pride and joy of my gluttony is my Bacon Sandwhich; 6 strips of bacon on a bagel covered with mayonaise.

But I'm not all bad! Some times I just settle for a dozen tacos and 1lb. of ground beef to fill them with. That and a veritable vat of Coke.

Until I quit smoking, I ate all that stuff and I weighed 15 pounds less than I do now. Yeah, sure, I'm probably going to die of a heart-attack. It's not my fault that healthful foods literally leaves me feeling unfulfilled. And 6 meals a day of vegetables would just have me devouring furniture, or for no other reason than to feel full.

I think it's a complete matter of personal choice. People who wish to eat healthful food should definitely have their options. Meanwhile, if I feel like eating potato chips by the bag-full, ice cream by the tub, and tacos by the dozen then I should be allowed to do that too -- without some putz taking all the 'fun' out of it.
posted by Dark Messiah at 2:09 PM on July 2, 2003


fff, I like this for its explanation of exactly what trans fat is, and a few good citations of the trans fat link to increased risk of heart disease. Here's some additional backup....
posted by clever sheep at 2:13 PM on July 2, 2003


fff, here's some more info for ya. Trans fat intro. (horrid, horrid, web design)

How Much Trans Fat is in Our Foods?

Trans fat is known to increase blood levels of low density lipoprotein (LDL), so-called "bad" cholesterol, while lowering levels of high density lipoprotein (HDL), known as "good" cholesterol.

Or check out the google list for more info.
posted by dejah420 at 2:15 PM on July 2, 2003


For chemistry/science folk, here are two quick explanations.

(I had forgotten why oils are liquids and saturated fats are solids. Cool stuff.)
posted by gramcracker at 2:37 PM on July 2, 2003


6 to 8 beers at night to wash it all down

Heehee -- after this degenerated into a "let's talk about why some diets are bad" thread, I can't believe nobody steered jonmc to this test.

Me, I'm with callmejay; I think aggressively marketing unhealthy foods to children is disgusting. But I'm drinking a beer as I think it.
posted by JanetLand at 2:39 PM on July 2, 2003


I went into the store the other day, to celebrate my nation's birthday by eating our traditional meal of beer, ketchup and Kraft Dinner (poutine and back bacon are optional but encouraged) and it turns out they've actually made Kraft Dinner boxes bigger. You now get a pack and a half for the price of an old pack. So much for this "less fat" nonsense. Great for poor Canadian university students, though.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 3:21 PM on July 2, 2003


[rolls eyes]

thread summary: I eat shit all day every day and it hasn't killed me, so it can't be all that bad! Let everyone eat shit! Shit's okay with me! Give the children shit!

Uh-huh. You're all such killer crazies! Tough and rough and ooh-so-bad.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:46 PM on July 2, 2003


Dark Messiah: I thought the same thing about the 5/6 meal per day cycle of healthy food before I tried it.

Surprisingly, I don't usually get hungry, and in fact must remind myself to eat now, because my body has adjusted to the changes.
posted by benjh at 5:59 PM on July 2, 2003


I think Americans are fat because they freakin drive everywhere. I mean, go to Germany some time. This is a country best known for sausages, breaded pork, and beer, but they're healthier than Americans because they aren't afraid of walking more than two feet to get somewhere. In fact, many of them WALK to the neighborhood grocery store! Ridiculous!
posted by dagnyscott at 6:10 PM on July 2, 2003


JantLand, you blasphemer, I'm not an alcoholic I'm a drunk. Alcoholics go to meetings.

Quite frankly I'd like them all to take their 12 steps off an 11 step pier.
posted by jonmc at 6:21 PM on July 2, 2003


"I think Americans are fat because they freakin drive everywhere."

You got that right, dagnyscott. I'd drive to the bathroom if I could get the car into the hallway.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:50 PM on July 2, 2003


Soyjoy

A survey of the Chinese diet conducted in 1977 found that 65 percent of calories in the average Chinese diet came from pork—which means that foods were cooked in lard. (Food in Chinese Culture, 1977) (source)

Another source article with actual academic cites, origin and context.. not a press release.
posted by stbalbach at 7:13 PM on July 2, 2003


Thx for the transfat links. I'll be a bit more aware the few times I buy processed foods. :-)

Dagny, I think the real reason so many Americans are fat is just plain old gluttony. It's typical of the entire American lifestyle: everything done in excess. Gluttony shows up everywhere, from gas-guzzling cars to monster homes to the heaps of food shoveled onto their plates.

This is a culture that doesn't find it easy to engage in reasonable limitations.

The USDA says the top ten sources of calories in the average American diet are:
Whole Milk
Cola
White Bread
Rolls
Sugar
2% Milk
Ground Beef
White (Wheat) Flour
Processed American Cheese

Basically, the average American shovels shit into his/her mouth every day, in quantities too grotesque to contemplate.

The result: a nation that's deathly unhealthy. Over sixty percent of America is overweight. Thirty percent of America is obese -- read that as: killing themselves with fat. These people are significantly (we're talking 2x to 5x) more likely to Type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease, high blood pressure, osteoarthritis, birth defects, cancer, hypertension -- sheesus, the list just goes on and on and on.

America is killing itself on greed.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:57 PM on July 2, 2003


Well, I guess when I ask for links from you, stbalbach, I have to specify "from somewhere other than the Weston Price cult." I could give you dozens of links to my favorite pro-veggie sites, but instead I back up my claims with current, mainstream news reports of peer-reviewed scientific studies.

Anyway, from one of the links you provided - remember what I said about Chinese restaurants? - Chinese restaurant meals today are rich in animal foods, but the truth is that the vast majority of Chinese cannot afford to include much in the way of meat or fish in their diets. And: A 1946 survey of rural China indicated that 88% of the diet was composed of cereals and legumes, with only 5% as vegetables, 3% as meat and fish and 4% as fats.

OK, this is from your own Weston-Price source, which should give you some indication of how scientifically consistent their position is. Since the vast majority of the Chinese population is rural, it's mathematically impossible that the average Chinese person is eating anywhere near the amount of pork and/or lard you're trying to get us to swallow. And even if your source has its numbers all screwed up, Cornell University's massive China Project, which is renowned among nutrition experts for its scope, breadth and depth, found that "Based on calories, about 96 percent of the diet in rural China was derived from vegetables."

Seriously, you really oughta read some stuff sometime that's not written by Sally Fallon and friends. There's a whole world of information out there.
posted by soyjoy at 9:59 PM on July 2, 2003


VulcanMike spake:
Another thought, a little off topic -- the person who invents vegetarian burgers and vegetarian chicken that are indistinguishable from regular meats will be a bizillionaire. There's enough technology and research available that corporations should be able to put their time into making things we love to eat healthier rather than creating new consumer-appealing unhealthy foods.


It's been done! Gardenburger, the maker of the sort-of-OK patties of the same name, introduced a new line of products about a year ago. Some are better than others. But, the "boneless barbecue [meat-free] pork riblets" are very, very convincing. So convincing, in fact, that I fed them to my gleefully carnivorous parents, who thought they were just regular BBQ pork until I told them otherwise (after the fact, of course). They've come out with several other varieties (BBQ chicken, meatloaf, grilled chicken, meatballs, etc.) -- those with sauces on them tend to be more convincing. They're made with "textured soy protein" -- sounds like shit, but actually comes pretty close to the texture and "experience" of real meat. They must be somewhat popular, because every time I look for them at the store they're out...

As for "reduced portion sizes" -- yeah, nobody would ever just eat two smaller pre-packaged portions, would they? But, I suppose, it is "for the children," so there's no need for logic to enter into it.
posted by wdpeck at 2:01 AM on July 3, 2003


...it makes me wanna puke.

jonmc, surely us long-suffering lefties cannnot the source of your gastric distress!
I suggest you look to your diet which seems to be inflicting irritable colon syndrome. It's those fried candy bars, I am sure of it ;-)
posted by madamjujujive at 8:13 AM on July 3, 2003


wdpeck: Though Gardenburger products may come close in flavor, 720mg sodium and 11g carbohydrates (including 7g sugar) per riblet is hardly the healthy solution I was referring to!
posted by VulcanMike at 8:29 AM on July 3, 2003


doh! apologies...my comment was meant as a reply to this comment in this thread.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:31 AM on July 3, 2003


And texturized soy is inevitably going to prove to be a Bad Thing. It's highly processed. Highly processed foods consistently prove bad for one's health.

Become a breatharian, like me. It's the only way to live!
posted by five fresh fish at 8:52 AM on July 3, 2003


Will Quorn shrink my brain?
posted by NortonDC at 9:17 AM on July 3, 2003


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