Anti-British Feeling In The United States
September 16, 2003 12:32 AM Subscribe
Kick A Brit In The Nuts: We've heard enough about anti-Americanism. What about anti-British feeling? Check out the USian website. Is there still a lingering, post-colonial resentment in the U.S., Australia and South Africa? Why not, apparently, in Canada or New Zealand? Is it anti-British, i.e. including the Scots and the Welsh, or just anti-English? Finally, is Usian the best collective noun for citizens of the U.S.A.? Will American eventually become politically incorrect, even though no one calls a Canadian an American? Sorry about so many questions. Me confused European!
Is it anti-British, i.e. including the Scots and the Welsh, or just anti-English
Generally, non-Brits tend not to understand the difference, so it's hard to know..
posted by ascullion at 12:57 AM on September 16, 2003
Generally, non-Brits tend not to understand the difference, so it's hard to know..
posted by ascullion at 12:57 AM on September 16, 2003
Why not, apparently, in Canada or New Zealand?
Because these two countries live next door to richer and more glamorous neighbours and therefore have more immediate envies to deal with.
If Australia was playing England at rugby, NZers would cheer for the Poms. Sorry but we just can't for Australia. But if it was NZ vs. England, Australians happily cheer for the Kiwis.
posted by dydecker at 1:13 AM on September 16, 2003
Because these two countries live next door to richer and more glamorous neighbours and therefore have more immediate envies to deal with.
If Australia was playing England at rugby, NZers would cheer for the Poms. Sorry but we just can't for Australia. But if it was NZ vs. England, Australians happily cheer for the Kiwis.
posted by dydecker at 1:13 AM on September 16, 2003
How to lose the good cheer of any Canadian: Call them Americans.
posted by will at 1:21 AM on September 16, 2003
posted by will at 1:21 AM on September 16, 2003
The US loves britain... hell we came from Britain and we feel a kinship. USian is not used at all... American only. We pretty much ignore that the American incorporates much of a hemisphere, and just think it refers to us. American's may be anti European, but not anti-British. But Britain always has an independent streak from mainland Europe.
posted by dancu at 1:37 AM on September 16, 2003
posted by dancu at 1:37 AM on September 16, 2003
I'm glad I survived August 19th with nuts unbruised. Why, I wonder, is it be male Britons only who must suffer?
There's a certain amount of residual, low-level anti-English post-colonial resentment in Wales, even after 750-ish years. I guess these things take time to die down.
posted by misteraitch at 1:43 AM on September 16, 2003
There's a certain amount of residual, low-level anti-English post-colonial resentment in Wales, even after 750-ish years. I guess these things take time to die down.
posted by misteraitch at 1:43 AM on September 16, 2003
I refuse to take a kicking from anyone using the word 'nuts' when there is a far superior British word - Bollocks.
posted by niceness at 1:58 AM on September 16, 2003
posted by niceness at 1:58 AM on September 16, 2003
I think that devolution is another nail in the coffin in the idea of britain. if you ask an inhabitant of these small isles then they would tell you that they were English, Welsh or Scottish as opposed to the generic British. Certainly anti-english sentiment is alive and thriving, but in my experience is usually associated with (drunken) angry young male syndrome, but this should not be over- egged methinks.
ps In fact the only people likely to associate themselves with the idea of Britishness tend to be Protestants from Northern Ireland where the only alternative is to describe themselves as Irish which for many is completely unpalatable.
posted by johnnyboy at 2:02 AM on September 16, 2003
ps In fact the only people likely to associate themselves with the idea of Britishness tend to be Protestants from Northern Ireland where the only alternative is to describe themselves as Irish which for many is completely unpalatable.
posted by johnnyboy at 2:02 AM on September 16, 2003
Wow. I just couldn't help but notice two of the google ads on this page: "American Accent Classes", and "English Accent Reduction". Now, I know that there are very many different "English" accents, but to me one of the coolest things about the British in general are the accents. Also, even an idiot speaking "the Queen's English" usually sounds smart (and trustworthy!) to me, and - I suspect - most Americans.
However, that said, I occasionally tutor students in English, and I've had more than one who specifically requested help in gaining an "American" accent, which always sort of surprises me. I'll also mention, apropos of nothing, that I have a dear friend here who went to university in Edinburgh, and I guess I have to put the exotica of a Greek-Scottish accent very near the top of my all-time favorite (or favourite) English language accents.
Regarding the anti-Brit feeling... it's increased a great deal here in Greece since the Iraq war (along with, of course, anti-Americanism), and this would be an English thing. As far as the U.S. goes, I wouldn't really know any more, but back in my day we all thought the Brits were just adorable, and would have left their bollocks unmolested.
posted by taz at 2:02 AM on September 16, 2003
However, that said, I occasionally tutor students in English, and I've had more than one who specifically requested help in gaining an "American" accent, which always sort of surprises me. I'll also mention, apropos of nothing, that I have a dear friend here who went to university in Edinburgh, and I guess I have to put the exotica of a Greek-Scottish accent very near the top of my all-time favorite (or favourite) English language accents.
Regarding the anti-Brit feeling... it's increased a great deal here in Greece since the Iraq war (along with, of course, anti-Americanism), and this would be an English thing. As far as the U.S. goes, I wouldn't really know any more, but back in my day we all thought the Brits were just adorable, and would have left their bollocks unmolested.
posted by taz at 2:02 AM on September 16, 2003
There's a bit more than "residual, low-level anti-English post-colonial resentment" in Wales, largely because of the slow death of Welsh-speaking communities due to incomers who seem to treat Wales as another part of England (I'm an incomer myself, by the by, but doing my best to learn the language, etc). Many incomers seem to feel no need to integrate themselves into the community, rather like those English ghettos that you find in Spain...
Then there's the whole holiday home thing. You can drive through entire villages in north Wales which have no people in them during the winter, because all the homes are owned by holidaymakers. Each of these villages was once a thriving community. So being tarred with the same brush as the English tends to irritate the Welsh a fair bit.
posted by jfinnis at 2:14 AM on September 16, 2003
Then there's the whole holiday home thing. You can drive through entire villages in north Wales which have no people in them during the winter, because all the homes are owned by holidaymakers. Each of these villages was once a thriving community. So being tarred with the same brush as the English tends to irritate the Welsh a fair bit.
posted by jfinnis at 2:14 AM on September 16, 2003
The etymology of 'whingeing poms'. On the inimitable australianbeers.com. Actually, the whole Aussie-Brit relationship is mostly reasonably affectionate... Britain and Australia have more in common than most countries, even English-speaking ones (New Zealand excepted).
With regard to Britain and Greece - harmless eccentrics (cultural misunderstanding?) and, erm, not-so-harmless hooligans (complete yobs, deserve everything they get). Plus maybe the huge British army base on Cyprus?
Miguel, the anti-British feeling in South Africa among Afrikaners may be due to the Boer War; in Australia there is a large Irish-descended population, which isn't so much the case in New Zealand (I think). For example, there is a large memorial to the IRA hunger-strikers in Waverley Cemetery in Sydney.
posted by plep at 2:23 AM on September 16, 2003
With regard to Britain and Greece - harmless eccentrics (cultural misunderstanding?) and, erm, not-so-harmless hooligans (complete yobs, deserve everything they get). Plus maybe the huge British army base on Cyprus?
Miguel, the anti-British feeling in South Africa among Afrikaners may be due to the Boer War; in Australia there is a large Irish-descended population, which isn't so much the case in New Zealand (I think). For example, there is a large memorial to the IRA hunger-strikers in Waverley Cemetery in Sydney.
posted by plep at 2:23 AM on September 16, 2003
I think the feeling here in Australia is mainly anti-British, rather than anti-UKian as such
huh? same thing.
posted by Frasermoo at 2:30 AM on September 16, 2003
huh? same thing.
posted by Frasermoo at 2:30 AM on September 16, 2003
The accents issue is a funny thing. Having spent some time in Edinburgh, I encountered some degree of anti-English sentiment. In Edinburgh there is a resentment of the typically rich, upper-class English students, generally on arts courses, where entry requirements are, or at least were, more forgiving than at Oxford or Cambridge. The collective name for these people is "yahs", due to their annoying tendency to say yah instead of yeah or yes. Having a bizarre mixture of accents myself (mainly home counties with twangs of country and London), I always found that if I hammed up the London-accent the Scots were more likely to identify with me and less likely to kick my head in. Doubtless because of the soap Eastenders' successful portrayal of the struggling working class Londoner stereotype.
On the international perception front, my guess would be that negative-feeling is definitely concentrated on the English - with Scots and Welshmen popular the world over. Doubtless this is due to England's history as oppressors, and Scotland's (somewhat incorrectly) and the Wales' as oppressees, but probably isn't helped by England football fans being a bunch of boozed-up twunts causing trouble wherever they go - whereas our Scottish counterparts seem to enjoy themselves without getting into that sort of trouble.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and as such the English typically hate everyone - particularly Americans, the French, the Spanish, the Welsh and the Scottish. I've always wondered at people who demonstrate and immediate grudge against me because something a monarch did several centuries ago. I do feel a sense of embarassment and regret for large sections of our history, though.
The most common misconception I've come across among people from elsewhere when it come to the English is that we are all royalists. I would say that a clear majority are not. I was recently in a pub with an Irish friend of mine who asked why none of us stood for the national anthem before an England football match. Simple: it didn't occur to anyone.
posted by nthdegx at 2:30 AM on September 16, 2003
On the international perception front, my guess would be that negative-feeling is definitely concentrated on the English - with Scots and Welshmen popular the world over. Doubtless this is due to England's history as oppressors, and Scotland's (somewhat incorrectly) and the Wales' as oppressees, but probably isn't helped by England football fans being a bunch of boozed-up twunts causing trouble wherever they go - whereas our Scottish counterparts seem to enjoy themselves without getting into that sort of trouble.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and as such the English typically hate everyone - particularly Americans, the French, the Spanish, the Welsh and the Scottish. I've always wondered at people who demonstrate and immediate grudge against me because something a monarch did several centuries ago. I do feel a sense of embarassment and regret for large sections of our history, though.
The most common misconception I've come across among people from elsewhere when it come to the English is that we are all royalists. I would say that a clear majority are not. I was recently in a pub with an Irish friend of mine who asked why none of us stood for the national anthem before an England football match. Simple: it didn't occur to anyone.
posted by nthdegx at 2:30 AM on September 16, 2003
I'm going to watch Reading v Cardiff tonight with a staunchly nationalistic welshman tonight. He is sitting with the 'english crowd' (me) and I have nothing but fear, intrepidation and utter anxiety as to what it's going to be like.
posted by Frasermoo at 2:34 AM on September 16, 2003
posted by Frasermoo at 2:34 AM on September 16, 2003
Great Britain is the island that consists of England Scotland and Wales. The United Kingdom in addition includes Northern Ireland. Indeed, the official name of the country if the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
This proves ascullion's point to some degree.
posted by nthdegx at 2:40 AM on September 16, 2003
This proves ascullion's point to some degree.
posted by nthdegx at 2:40 AM on September 16, 2003
England's history as oppressors
- True but certainly our friends from the home nations were complicit in the subjugation of many worldwide.
- The zest with which many aussies bash us poms is part of a wider xenophobic streak in the austrailan psyche, just my two bobs 'orth. ;)
posted by johnnyboy at 2:44 AM on September 16, 2003
- True but certainly our friends from the home nations were complicit in the subjugation of many worldwide.
- The zest with which many aussies bash us poms is part of a wider xenophobic streak in the austrailan psyche, just my two bobs 'orth. ;)
posted by johnnyboy at 2:44 AM on September 16, 2003
The zest with which many aussies bash us poms is part of a wider xenophobic streak in the austrailan psyche, just my two bobs 'orth.
Yep - Australians are really in love with Australia (no bad thing at all - it's infectious), and are blessed with a rather robust sense of humour and epithets for many nationalities (e.g. 'seppos' = 'septic tanks' = 'yanks', derived from the Cockney rhyming slang ;) ).
posted by plep at 2:49 AM on September 16, 2003
Yep - Australians are really in love with Australia (no bad thing at all - it's infectious), and are blessed with a rather robust sense of humour and epithets for many nationalities (e.g. 'seppos' = 'septic tanks' = 'yanks', derived from the Cockney rhyming slang ;) ).
posted by plep at 2:49 AM on September 16, 2003
Australians may well be in love with Austraila but they appear to have an even deeper affection for working behind the bar in London pubs. I predict that by 2020 the population of Australia will number little more than the cast of neighbours while the rest of her sons and daughters are busy throwing up outside Walkabout.
And good luck Frasermoo.
posted by ciderwoman at 3:14 AM on September 16, 2003
And good luck Frasermoo.
posted by ciderwoman at 3:14 AM on September 16, 2003
plep, regarding the planespotters in Greece, I think the man-on-the-street reaction is probably more that of general bemusement.
Regarding the binge drinking thing, this is really something that is not at all understood or remotely identified with here, and has led to some deeply unfortunate incidents, but for the most part, this has been a recent - and we can hope, fairly short-lived - phenomenon.
posted by taz at 3:18 AM on September 16, 2003
Regarding the binge drinking thing, this is really something that is not at all understood or remotely identified with here, and has led to some deeply unfortunate incidents, but for the most part, this has been a recent - and we can hope, fairly short-lived - phenomenon.
posted by taz at 3:18 AM on September 16, 2003
ciderwoman, the difference is that the twenty-year-old Aussie oiks in London get fed up and bugger off home after a year whereas poms who have the sense to move to the Antipodes tend to stay until they die, slowing turning themselves lobster pink on the golf course over the decades, annoying the locals with their ridiculous stories about the best beach in the world being in Blackpool and putting tomato sauce on everything.
posted by dydecker at 3:39 AM on September 16, 2003
posted by dydecker at 3:39 AM on September 16, 2003
Is it true that there are more New Zealanders in Sydney than in any city in New Zealand, apart from Auckland?
posted by plep at 3:40 AM on September 16, 2003
posted by plep at 3:40 AM on September 16, 2003
Heheh...funny thing is, it reads like it was written by Aussies ;-)
Anyway, a browse thru he site puts it in 'ranting blog & stuff' category. I like his take on ads
But of course, USians love us Brits to an almost embarassing degree. I've criss-crossed the States a few times and have had USian cuddly love showered on me from the most unexpected quarters. Just say 'water' ;-)
ciderwoman: I got a night bus* from the Tower of London to Paddington at about 3am last Sunday & 80% of the voices I heard along the way were Oz/Kiwi.
* Amazing. I haven't got on a night bus in years and it used to be journey to hell but now they've got cheap, frequent & clean. I'm still reeling from the shock...
posted by i_cola at 3:43 AM on September 16, 2003
Anyway, a browse thru he site puts it in 'ranting blog & stuff' category. I like his take on ads
But of course, USians love us Brits to an almost embarassing degree. I've criss-crossed the States a few times and have had USian cuddly love showered on me from the most unexpected quarters. Just say 'water' ;-)
ciderwoman: I got a night bus* from the Tower of London to Paddington at about 3am last Sunday & 80% of the voices I heard along the way were Oz/Kiwi.
* Amazing. I haven't got on a night bus in years and it used to be journey to hell but now they've got cheap, frequent & clean. I'm still reeling from the shock...
posted by i_cola at 3:43 AM on September 16, 2003
i_cola - it's true. And really, you can score pretty well on that 'ainglish' thing alone -- until people actually get to know you, that is. My advice? Keep moving, keep moving...
posted by taz at 4:30 AM on September 16, 2003
posted by taz at 4:30 AM on September 16, 2003
Is it true that there are more New Zealanders in Sydney than in any city in New Zealand, apart from Auckland?
Doesn't look like it. There are around 375,000 traitorous New Zealanders in all of Australia. Wellington has a population of around 340,000.
New Zealanders tend to arrive by plane so it is very difficult to ship them to Nauru.
posted by dydecker at 4:47 AM on September 16, 2003
Doesn't look like it. There are around 375,000 traitorous New Zealanders in all of Australia. Wellington has a population of around 340,000.
New Zealanders tend to arrive by plane so it is very difficult to ship them to Nauru.
posted by dydecker at 4:47 AM on September 16, 2003
I've always wondered at people who demonstrate and immediate grudge against me because something a monarch did several centuries ago.
Is it ok if we hate them cos they're a bunch of whining inbred parasites who burn our property and treat us like scum when we visit?
posted by biffa at 5:58 AM on September 16, 2003
Is it ok if we hate them cos they're a bunch of whining inbred parasites who burn our property and treat us like scum when we visit?
posted by biffa at 5:58 AM on September 16, 2003
Wow. I just couldn't help but notice two of the google ads on this page: "American Accent Classes", and "English Accent Reduction".
That's not clever. I've known many Poms and even Irish in the States that quickly learned their accents were their tickets to women. Sometimes lots of women. Add to this the typical UK stereotyped opinion that American women are easy, and these fellows were workin' it, heh.
posted by Shane at 6:36 AM on September 16, 2003
That's not clever. I've known many Poms and even Irish in the States that quickly learned their accents were their tickets to women. Sometimes lots of women. Add to this the typical UK stereotyped opinion that American women are easy, and these fellows were workin' it, heh.
posted by Shane at 6:36 AM on September 16, 2003
Finally, is Usian the best collective noun for citizens of the U.S.A.?
Personally, I like "Gringo".
posted by signal at 6:52 AM on September 16, 2003
Personally, I like "Gringo".
posted by signal at 6:52 AM on September 16, 2003
Wait, you're saying American women aren't easy?
*tears air ticket up. Returns to American accent class.
posted by ciderwoman at 6:54 AM on September 16, 2003
*tears air ticket up. Returns to American accent class.
posted by ciderwoman at 6:54 AM on September 16, 2003
Well Australian and South Africans have a reason to hate the Brits (penal colony and boer war respectively). New Zealand is just where everyone who liked rugby was shipped off too (and they're far too obsessed with it to worry about anything else) and Canada's too much of a softie to hate anyone.
And it's just anti-english, everyone likes those cute scots.
No american is fine, everyone knows what you mean. No.
So did I pass, did I?
posted by carfilhiot at 7:07 AM on September 16, 2003
And it's just anti-english, everyone likes those cute scots.
No american is fine, everyone knows what you mean. No.
So did I pass, did I?
posted by carfilhiot at 7:07 AM on September 16, 2003
is Usian the best collective noun for citizens of the U.S.A.?
American architect Frank Lloyd Wright coined the word usonian. Don't know if he was trying to get away from the word "american" by using that phrase or not. In any event, it hasn't caught on.
posted by crunchland at 7:07 AM on September 16, 2003
American architect Frank Lloyd Wright coined the word usonian. Don't know if he was trying to get away from the word "american" by using that phrase or not. In any event, it hasn't caught on.
posted by crunchland at 7:07 AM on September 16, 2003
Well Australian and South Africans have a reason to hate the Brits (penal colony and boer war respectively). New Zealand is just where everyone who liked rugby was shipped off too (and they're far too obsessed with it to worry about anything else) and Canada's too much of a softie to hate anyone.
I've noticed that nobody's mentioned the Irish...
posted by jonmc at 7:22 AM on September 16, 2003
I've noticed that nobody's mentioned the Irish...
posted by jonmc at 7:22 AM on September 16, 2003
cute scots
- I take it you have never taken in an old firm game then.
I've noticed that nobody's mentioned the Irish...
- They are far too busy making money to devote the time they used too to hatred, one of the drawbacks of the celtic tiger.
posted by johnnyboy at 7:31 AM on September 16, 2003
- I take it you have never taken in an old firm game then.
I've noticed that nobody's mentioned the Irish...
- They are far too busy making money to devote the time they used too to hatred, one of the drawbacks of the celtic tiger.
posted by johnnyboy at 7:31 AM on September 16, 2003
Johnnyboy, of course I meant the Welsh, I have no problem with the others on nthdegx's list (The Americans, the French, the Spanish and the Scottish) but am happy to generalise about the Welsh and their willingness to rubbish us then put their hand out for more subsidy from Westminster. At the last general election was it Plaid Cymru who had a platform of total independence from England apart from keep sending the money please? Also, on a professional level, their opposition to wind energy gets my back up.
posted by biffa at 8:10 AM on September 16, 2003
posted by biffa at 8:10 AM on September 16, 2003
Oh, now, the English aren't all bad, they've produced the odd decent band and tv comedy. Perhaps they got just a little annoyed when they discovered that they sent all their criminals to somewhere with decent weather.
But as a friend of mine said, there's so many Australians and NZs travelling and working around the Ol' Dart that having such an accent is no longer a voucher for unlimited bootywhang.
As for the NZers in Bondi thing, it reminds me of that comment by former NZ PM Piggy Muldoon to the effect that every Kiwi that moved to Australia increased the average IQ of both countries. Not that I agree, but it's still funny.
posted by GrahamVM at 8:20 AM on September 16, 2003
But as a friend of mine said, there's so many Australians and NZs travelling and working around the Ol' Dart that having such an accent is no longer a voucher for unlimited bootywhang.
As for the NZers in Bondi thing, it reminds me of that comment by former NZ PM Piggy Muldoon to the effect that every Kiwi that moved to Australia increased the average IQ of both countries. Not that I agree, but it's still funny.
posted by GrahamVM at 8:20 AM on September 16, 2003
...a lingering, post-colonial resentment... Why not, apparently, in Canada or New Zealand?
Many people I know were born somewhere else in the Commonwealth. Many arrived arrived here via England and/or with relations in England, not to mention growing up with cricket, football, shillings, tea, yod-insertion or whatever British stereotypes exist in their particular nation.
Will American eventually become politically incorrect, even though no one calls a Canadian an American?
Who was Amerigo Vespucci, and what did he do? I think 'American' was originally to apply to everyone from Tierra del Fuego to Nuuk and Alert. I prefer using 'United States-born,' 'the U.S.' as a modifier/adjective ('the U.S. politician'), or something of that sort.
Wow. I just couldn't help but notice two of the google ads on this page... I find those sad as well. And unnecessary. It's not like the target audience is learning a second language where they would have to learn a phonetic inventory; British/U.S./Australian/N.Z./Canadian/Kenyan/etc Englishes are still mutually intelligble.
On preview, GrahamVM, that is funny.
posted by philfromhavelock at 8:39 AM on September 16, 2003
Many people I know were born somewhere else in the Commonwealth. Many arrived arrived here via England and/or with relations in England, not to mention growing up with cricket, football, shillings, tea, yod-insertion or whatever British stereotypes exist in their particular nation.
Will American eventually become politically incorrect, even though no one calls a Canadian an American?
Who was Amerigo Vespucci, and what did he do? I think 'American' was originally to apply to everyone from Tierra del Fuego to Nuuk and Alert. I prefer using 'United States-born,' 'the U.S.' as a modifier/adjective ('the U.S. politician'), or something of that sort.
Wow. I just couldn't help but notice two of the google ads on this page... I find those sad as well. And unnecessary. It's not like the target audience is learning a second language where they would have to learn a phonetic inventory; British/U.S./Australian/N.Z./Canadian/Kenyan/etc Englishes are still mutually intelligble.
On preview, GrahamVM, that is funny.
posted by philfromhavelock at 8:39 AM on September 16, 2003
I've noticed that nobody's mentioned the Irish...
apparently jon, we irish are naw allowed
posted by clavdivs at 8:49 AM on September 16, 2003
apparently jon, we irish are naw allowed
posted by clavdivs at 8:49 AM on September 16, 2003
biffa: Plaid Cymru don't oppose wind power - they oppose the fact that over a certain level (50MW) the decision to build a wind farm is taken completely away from local people. The Welsh are a bit leery of that kind of thing, particularily after Treweryn (where a village was drowned so that Liverpool's factories could have water).
As for farming subsidies, it's impossible to run hillfarms without them under the current European CAP. Plaid would rather have reform of the CAP so that farmers are paid fairly, but failing that, we need those subsidies. The same subsidies that the Scots and English hill farmers get, by the way. Total independence for Wales, BTW, is more or less off the cards now apart from a few idealist diehards (and god knows the world needs them).
As for your other comments - I'm English. I've lived in Wales since I was 18 - I'm 35 now. I've never had any "rubbishing" from the Welsh people. If anything, I find them far too modest, they don't stand up for themselves enough. Of course, if you go looking for trouble... but then again if I were to go to France and complain loudly about "bloody Frogs" and garlic and nobody speaking English I'm sure I wouldn't be popular either.
posted by jfinnis at 8:58 AM on September 16, 2003
As for farming subsidies, it's impossible to run hillfarms without them under the current European CAP. Plaid would rather have reform of the CAP so that farmers are paid fairly, but failing that, we need those subsidies. The same subsidies that the Scots and English hill farmers get, by the way. Total independence for Wales, BTW, is more or less off the cards now apart from a few idealist diehards (and god knows the world needs them).
As for your other comments - I'm English. I've lived in Wales since I was 18 - I'm 35 now. I've never had any "rubbishing" from the Welsh people. If anything, I find them far too modest, they don't stand up for themselves enough. Of course, if you go looking for trouble... but then again if I were to go to France and complain loudly about "bloody Frogs" and garlic and nobody speaking English I'm sure I wouldn't be popular either.
posted by jfinnis at 8:58 AM on September 16, 2003
I've never had any "rubbishing" from the Welsh people. If anything, I find them far too modest, they don't stand up for themselves enough.
It's a passive aggressive thing. They don't say it to your face. I went out with a Welsh person for five years and trust me, they really do despise the English with all the venom an insecure little nation can muster.
posted by Summer at 9:02 AM on September 16, 2003
It's a passive aggressive thing. They don't say it to your face. I went out with a Welsh person for five years and trust me, they really do despise the English with all the venom an insecure little nation can muster.
posted by Summer at 9:02 AM on September 16, 2003
I think 'American' was originally to apply to everyone from Tierra del Fuego to Nuuk
hell, why stop at greenland? why not take over the world?
posted by nylon at 9:09 AM on September 16, 2003
hell, why stop at greenland? why not take over the world?
posted by nylon at 9:09 AM on September 16, 2003
they really do despise the English with all the venom an insecure little nation can muster.
I don't think they just save it for the English though, a Welsh friend of mine has Welsh parents from separate Welsh valleys, when they married they moved to his village and 30 years on people in the village still regard her as an outsider.
jfinnis: I should have made myself clearer on wind power, its not Plaid Cymru's attitude I object to, its the general attitude, which has tended to mean planning approval rates of less than 10% (England 50-60%, Scotland 90%).
As for farm subsidies I'm quite happy to see all farmers lose them, Welsh, English or Scottish.
posted by biffa at 9:11 AM on September 16, 2003
I don't think they just save it for the English though, a Welsh friend of mine has Welsh parents from separate Welsh valleys, when they married they moved to his village and 30 years on people in the village still regard her as an outsider.
jfinnis: I should have made myself clearer on wind power, its not Plaid Cymru's attitude I object to, its the general attitude, which has tended to mean planning approval rates of less than 10% (England 50-60%, Scotland 90%).
As for farm subsidies I'm quite happy to see all farmers lose them, Welsh, English or Scottish.
posted by biffa at 9:11 AM on September 16, 2003
jonmc, clavdivs: i blame johnny rotten.
British/U.S./Australian/N.Z./Canadian/Kenyan/etc Englishes are still mutually intelligble.
In theory, yes, in practice not always. Watch enough US TV--particularly lowbrow news magazine shows of the Inside Copy/Hard Edition type--and you'll see people speaking English, with subtitles for those who can't understand their heavy accents. I myself once worked with a Jamaican whose accent was strong enough--after 25 years in Canada, even--that I sometimes needed to "translate" him for coworkers. (And yes, he was speaking straight English, not patois--when he spoke patois I couldn't even make out a word except the odd "ya mon" or "bumbaclot")
It's a passive aggressive thing. They don't say it to your face. I went out with a Welsh person for five years and trust me, they really do despise the English with all the venom an insecure little nation can muster.
pssst... change "Welsh" to "Canadian" and "English" to "Americans" and you just described why we're too busy to hate England. Only don't tell anybody here, I hear half of them are American.
Say, ah, lovely place you've got here. *whistles*
posted by arto at 9:14 AM on September 16, 2003
British/U.S./Australian/N.Z./Canadian/Kenyan/etc Englishes are still mutually intelligble.
In theory, yes, in practice not always. Watch enough US TV--particularly lowbrow news magazine shows of the Inside Copy/Hard Edition type--and you'll see people speaking English, with subtitles for those who can't understand their heavy accents. I myself once worked with a Jamaican whose accent was strong enough--after 25 years in Canada, even--that I sometimes needed to "translate" him for coworkers. (And yes, he was speaking straight English, not patois--when he spoke patois I couldn't even make out a word except the odd "ya mon" or "bumbaclot")
It's a passive aggressive thing. They don't say it to your face. I went out with a Welsh person for five years and trust me, they really do despise the English with all the venom an insecure little nation can muster.
pssst... change "Welsh" to "Canadian" and "English" to "Americans" and you just described why we're too busy to hate England. Only don't tell anybody here, I hear half of them are American.
Say, ah, lovely place you've got here. *whistles*
posted by arto at 9:14 AM on September 16, 2003
Me confused European!
Miguel, we Europeans hate the USians and the English. Now, write it down 300 times.
I predict that by 2020 the population of Australia will number little more than the cast of neighbours while the rest of her sons and daughters are busy throwing up outside Walkabout.
Goody, they might open the border and and let me in. * I hearts Australia*
posted by ginz at 9:14 AM on September 16, 2003
Miguel, we Europeans hate the USians and the English. Now, write it down 300 times.
I predict that by 2020 the population of Australia will number little more than the cast of neighbours while the rest of her sons and daughters are busy throwing up outside Walkabout.
Goody, they might open the border and and let me in. * I hearts Australia*
posted by ginz at 9:14 AM on September 16, 2003
I don't think they just save it for the English though, a Welsh friend of mine has Welsh parents from separate Welsh valleys, when they married they moved to his village and 30 years on people in the village still regard her as an outsider.
Pretty much true of any old-style rural community, though - particularily one where there are large natural barriers between very close small communities. As for the wind farms issue, I can't argue with your figures, although a lot of the complainers I've seen interviewed over the years seem to be English retirees who whine about the ruin of the lovely unspoiled countryside to which they escaped! I'm just being anectodal here, of course.
We're probably all overgeneralising a bit, but I really haven't seen any of the spite that's being talked about here. Perhaps it's because I'm learning Welsh. Still, if I were Welsh I'd be pissed off at the English - after all, Welsh used to be the language of the whole of Britain (which is, after all, a Welsh word). Maybe I'm just suffering from English colonial guilt :)
posted by jfinnis at 9:22 AM on September 16, 2003
Pretty much true of any old-style rural community, though - particularily one where there are large natural barriers between very close small communities. As for the wind farms issue, I can't argue with your figures, although a lot of the complainers I've seen interviewed over the years seem to be English retirees who whine about the ruin of the lovely unspoiled countryside to which they escaped! I'm just being anectodal here, of course.
We're probably all overgeneralising a bit, but I really haven't seen any of the spite that's being talked about here. Perhaps it's because I'm learning Welsh. Still, if I were Welsh I'd be pissed off at the English - after all, Welsh used to be the language of the whole of Britain (which is, after all, a Welsh word). Maybe I'm just suffering from English colonial guilt :)
posted by jfinnis at 9:22 AM on September 16, 2003
It really is time-consuming keeping track of which nations dislike each other, and then there is the burden of remembering all the grudges being harboured within the little metafilter community, there just aren't enough hours in the day.
posted by johnnyboy at 9:25 AM on September 16, 2003
posted by johnnyboy at 9:25 AM on September 16, 2003
its not Plaid Cymru's attitude I object to, its the general attitude, which has tended to mean planning approval rates of less than 10% (England 50-60%, Scotland 90%).
Wow, that's a bit more of a gap than I expected. It's fair to note that there are some exceptional reasons here and there though isn't it? I'd have thought that it's a damn sight easier to site wind farms in parts of Britain that don't have a local economy heavily reliant on tourism (e.g. I see that Norfolk seems to have plenty of problem getting wind farms approved). And in Scotland, renewable energy is a major hobbyhorse for the Scottish Executive, so naturally a bit easier to get these sorts of things through.
posted by bifter at 9:33 AM on September 16, 2003
Wow, that's a bit more of a gap than I expected. It's fair to note that there are some exceptional reasons here and there though isn't it? I'd have thought that it's a damn sight easier to site wind farms in parts of Britain that don't have a local economy heavily reliant on tourism (e.g. I see that Norfolk seems to have plenty of problem getting wind farms approved). And in Scotland, renewable energy is a major hobbyhorse for the Scottish Executive, so naturally a bit easier to get these sorts of things through.
posted by bifter at 9:33 AM on September 16, 2003
when they married they moved to his village and 30 years on people in the village still regard her as an outsider.
It happens. I still think of the monster family of cereals, especially Boo Berry, and being new brands.
posted by thirteen at 9:35 AM on September 16, 2003
It happens. I still think of the monster family of cereals, especially Boo Berry, and being new brands.
posted by thirteen at 9:35 AM on September 16, 2003
Welsh used to be the language of the whole of Britain (which is, after all, a Welsh word). Maybe I'm just suffering from English colonial guilt :)
Well, it was the Saxons that did that and they were German. I had no opinion about the Welsh one way or the other till I met them en mass via my ex. They were all from the Cardiff/Caerphilly area where, from what I can gather, hatred of the English is pretty much assumed. My ex quite often got pitying looks when I was introduced as English. Charming.
posted by Summer at 9:41 AM on September 16, 2003
Well, it was the Saxons that did that and they were German. I had no opinion about the Welsh one way or the other till I met them en mass via my ex. They were all from the Cardiff/Caerphilly area where, from what I can gather, hatred of the English is pretty much assumed. My ex quite often got pitying looks when I was introduced as English. Charming.
posted by Summer at 9:41 AM on September 16, 2003
Heh - the Welsh from around Cardiff are generally viewed as "not that Welsh" by those from further northwest, they probably get a bit defensive about their Welshness. I've heard Cardiff described as "tre fawr ger Cymru" - a large town near Wales :)
posted by jfinnis at 9:49 AM on September 16, 2003
posted by jfinnis at 9:49 AM on September 16, 2003
cute scots
I take it you have never taken in an old firm game then
no but I've seen belle & sebastian live!
posted by carfilhiot at 10:29 AM on September 16, 2003
I take it you have never taken in an old firm game then
no but I've seen belle & sebastian live!
posted by carfilhiot at 10:29 AM on September 16, 2003
no but I've seen belle & sebastian live!
- Not quite the same experience.
posted by johnnyboy at 10:38 AM on September 16, 2003
- Not quite the same experience.
posted by johnnyboy at 10:38 AM on September 16, 2003
"It really is time-consuming keeping track of which nations dislike each other"
It's easy really. Just remember that deep down us English despise everyone. Even ourselves.
Now Belle and Sebastian at an old firm game, that's something worth watching.
posted by ciderwoman at 10:51 AM on September 16, 2003
It's easy really. Just remember that deep down us English despise everyone. Even ourselves.
Now Belle and Sebastian at an old firm game, that's something worth watching.
posted by ciderwoman at 10:51 AM on September 16, 2003
Even with Wright's choice of "Usonian," he was only referencing to "United States." There's a lot of those. Even Mexico's full name is actually the United States of Mexico.
"Americans" is fine. Let's move on.
posted by teradome at 11:32 AM on September 16, 2003
"Americans" is fine. Let's move on.
posted by teradome at 11:32 AM on September 16, 2003
Indeed. As a Canuck, neither I nor my fellow countrymen wish to be called "Americans", anymore than a black person wants to be called a "nigger". Frankly, this whole "USian" business seems to be some weird European neurosis on our behalf, as I've never met anyone over here who uses it. If I wish to distinguish residents of the United States of America from the other inhabitants of this continent, I have the perfectly good "Fucking Yanks", thank you.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 1:28 PM on September 16, 2003
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 1:28 PM on September 16, 2003
In the People's Republic of Yorkshire we laugh at your petty squabbles.
posted by vbfg at 1:33 PM on September 16, 2003
posted by vbfg at 1:33 PM on September 16, 2003
For Summer and Biffa...
Maybe the lingering resentment from the Welsh is that casual racism can exhibited without so much as an eyebrow raised.
"[I] am happy to generalise about the Welsh and their willingness to rubbish us"
Can you not see the idiocy of this kind of statement?
The fact that you two can be openly racist and not see a problem with it, may have a lot to do with the venom that this "insecure little nation" is filled with.
Personally I find bigotry and racism abhorrent, whichever side of the border you are on.
posted by fullerine at 1:48 PM on September 16, 2003
Maybe the lingering resentment from the Welsh is that casual racism can exhibited without so much as an eyebrow raised.
"[I] am happy to generalise about the Welsh and their willingness to rubbish us"
Can you not see the idiocy of this kind of statement?
The fact that you two can be openly racist and not see a problem with it, may have a lot to do with the venom that this "insecure little nation" is filled with.
Personally I find bigotry and racism abhorrent, whichever side of the border you are on.
posted by fullerine at 1:48 PM on September 16, 2003
I think the feeling here in Australia is mainly anti-British, rather than anti-UKian as such
huh? same thing.
Spoken by an American, obviously. Britain is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but the Australian bias against the whingeing poms is generally reserved for those who are British, as opposed to Irish, Welsh or Scottish. In fact, Australians seem to feel some sort of kinship with the Irish, perhaps because the stereotypical Irishman has the same sort of attitude to life as the stereotypical Australian - any problem can be solved with copious quantities of beer.
Is it true that there are more New Zealanders in Sydney than in any city in New Zealand, apart from Auckland?
This is a common statement, but is unlikely to be true, as mentioned by dydecker. The Gold Coast took over as the preferred destination for Kiwis some years ago anyway, having much better weather, a significantly lower cost of living and generally being a much nicer place to live.
taz, I have seen the same attitude from Asians wanting to learn English, but being reluctant to do so in Australia as they want to have an American accent. No amount of talking seems to be able to convince someone that, no matter how much English they learn, they will always have a Japanese/Korean/whatever accent, not an American or Australian one.
posted by dg at 3:26 PM on September 16, 2003
huh? same thing.
Spoken by an American, obviously. Britain is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but the Australian bias against the whingeing poms is generally reserved for those who are British, as opposed to Irish, Welsh or Scottish. In fact, Australians seem to feel some sort of kinship with the Irish, perhaps because the stereotypical Irishman has the same sort of attitude to life as the stereotypical Australian - any problem can be solved with copious quantities of beer.
Is it true that there are more New Zealanders in Sydney than in any city in New Zealand, apart from Auckland?
This is a common statement, but is unlikely to be true, as mentioned by dydecker. The Gold Coast took over as the preferred destination for Kiwis some years ago anyway, having much better weather, a significantly lower cost of living and generally being a much nicer place to live.
taz, I have seen the same attitude from Asians wanting to learn English, but being reluctant to do so in Australia as they want to have an American accent. No amount of talking seems to be able to convince someone that, no matter how much English they learn, they will always have a Japanese/Korean/whatever accent, not an American or Australian one.
posted by dg at 3:26 PM on September 16, 2003
I've known many Poms and even Irish in the States that quickly learned their accents were their tickets to women.
Damn straight. Or, rather, tickets to open a conversation with almost anyone. I got quite a few (positive) remarks in LA from people who might not have ordinarily spoken to me.
We're not all like the British guy from "Go" though.
posted by wackybrit at 4:31 PM on September 16, 2003
Damn straight. Or, rather, tickets to open a conversation with almost anyone. I got quite a few (positive) remarks in LA from people who might not have ordinarily spoken to me.
We're not all like the British guy from "Go" though.
posted by wackybrit at 4:31 PM on September 16, 2003
Britain is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but the Australian bias against the whingeing poms is generally reserved for those who are British, as opposed to Irish, Welsh or Scottish.
England, and the English.
There's a reason we shipped you lot to another hemisphere....
posted by inpHilltr8r at 5:30 PM on September 16, 2003
England, and the English.
There's a reason we shipped you lot to another hemisphere....
posted by inpHilltr8r at 5:30 PM on September 16, 2003
Um, right. My bad.
I guess I do belong here, after all.
posted by dg at 6:22 PM on September 16, 2003
I guess I do belong here, after all.
posted by dg at 6:22 PM on September 16, 2003
The sole reason for any remaining anti-English sentiments is your horrible football team, don't you know that?
posted by Celery at 4:36 AM on September 18, 2003
posted by Celery at 4:36 AM on September 18, 2003
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Having lived in both New Zealand and Australia, there is certainly greater love for the mother country in NZ. I think the feeling here in Australia is mainly anti-British, rather than anti-UKian as such. I can think of a few collective nouns for citizens of the USA, but this is probably not the place to bring them up.
posted by dg at 12:44 AM on September 16, 2003